Pastors' Panel Podcast- Biblical Necessities when starting a church

Hello, good evening. Thank you for watching the pastor's panel podcast I am joined by Dan and Pastor John.

I'm so thankful for these guys I'm thankful for the other guys in our group the ones that that couldn't be with us tonight

I really appreciate them the insights they give the support they give and their prayers and we appreciate you

Because we love joining together with you to reach our community With the gospel of Jesus Christ with the truth of his word and so we're just thankful to do this together that God allows this by his grace and his mercy to us and Tonight the topic is biblical foundations and Necessities when starting or restarting a church.

I think this topic in this issue is extremely important Not even for Not Even for churches that are starting churches that are being planted but all churches

I Think it's good for all churches into just like individuals to re -evaluate Where you are your walk with Christ and and are we?

Are we basing what we do on Scripture on God's Word and his will you know, are we trying to seek our own?

So I think this is Foundational stuff that we can talk about tonight

And but before we get started, so it's gonna be a little bit of a curveball for Jonathan because he didn't get to hear the question

But it's not that bad. So I wanted to ask you guys since today is Set aside as National Day of Prayer.

I'm curious What your philosophy and if you've not thought about it

That's okay. You can just say yeah, you know, you're not thought about it But if you're one if you're willing to answer, what is your philosophy on?

And we'll use it because it's that today the National Day of Prayer or days like that I was thinking about that today and prayer is

Commanded pranded prayer is essential to our relationship with the father So prayer is important.

So we're not you know, we're not speaking to that The non importance of prayer the importance of prayer.

It's essential but Setting aside a special day to to pray for the nation to pray for one another

Does it Does it lessen the value on the other?

364 days that we should be praying or or does it does it not?

Is it wise is it good to set aside a National Day of Prayer Have you thought about that?

What are your thoughts? I'm curious we could probably take a whole podcast on that one

We made different that's okay. Yeah It I would say it's wonderful and it's not good all at the same time

And here's why The the church ought to be calling people to pray each and every day

Praying together praying corporately praying individually for other people the idea of a

National Day of Prayer has it's got an idea of government with it because government is one who declares holidays in a

National Day of Whatever and so it's also good for our government to tell us you guys we need to pray to God in order to Seek as well for our nation in order to make sure that we're having just laws

That in the concept behind that is fantastic Now here's the thing our nation

Like my goodness people. Well, how do you think God would hear what we have to say? He tells us that if we if we hide sin in our heart we don't just hide it in our heart we like put it on TV hang banners and everything else and We I don't know it's it's not it seems like we have a backwards view of What prayer ought to be now the why the way the reason why

I think That way about it is is this if we think to an ideal situation

Where the gospel is going out and the Word of God is moving mightily into people and you have a nation that says

All right, we are going to be ruled by Christ. We're going to adhere to his laws want to trust in this gospel then the nation the rulers of the nation

Calling for a people to pray for for God to bless their nation and to lead them and to guide them is a great thing

While they're getting it from they should be getting it from the church you know on a regular basis and the family should be hearing it from the father or husband or Ruler in the home on a regular basis and we should be telling ourselves to pray on a regular basis

It's also good to keep every sphere of influence some subjects submitted to God in his will

So while it is a great idea, I think in practice. We're a little bit misguided thinking that Without first repenting of our sin that us as a nation today.

The day of prayer is going to actually do us any good But those are just my initial thoughts on it, okay

I'm probably a little more positive on it myself. The I'm thankful that is as much as we have

Have forsaken God in the gospel in our government I'm thankful that at least there is a space that the

US Congress would still designate a day And really their statement is turned to God in prayer and meditation and And so there is an aspect of turning now

Is it repenting of sin and is it confessing of sin and and then when they say God a lot of times you're using that Very politically, that's the negative side of it a generic

Not necessarily turning to the one true God. So I get that Because they they will have people that say well

God is Allah, you know or search with circumstances like that So so I know there's still a political politicized side of it but for me though the positive side of it is there's

There are very few other places that Christians Across the nation will unite just because there's not a nationwide network that we can all communicate together through And so so for Christians You know,

I'm thankful for days like today because You see kids all across the nation at flagpoles gathering and praying over their schools and praying over those things and and You know, it's making a uniting effort and actually from It makes things a little awkward

You okay, there we go, there we go good for a second last year I was able to lead a national day of prayer at a local middle school and that ended up Turning into the launching of an

FCA group, you know, and and so so I'm saying That that's that's one place that I just I trust the sovereignty of God in that honestly personally

I've In a lot of ways and this goes even to maybe some of our eschatology in some ways, you know

We love to talk that stuff. But in some ways I've kind of given up on the government bringing repentance and and I do believe that if we have to legislate morality and Legislate convictions that it's not really a change of heart anyway so so so I definitely see

Dan's point that I Don't believe that this is mandated necessarily or or offered out there by all

Christian people or necessarily even what I would consider a Christian government But I am very thankful that that it does give a an awareness across the nation that Christians are

Pausing to pray all throughout the day and drawing attention to that and you're right We should do it all the time and I think people are

But I think there's something comforting in my mind that the whole body of Christ Becomes aware that today is a national day of prayer that we're going to intentionally press in pray gather at schools gather at Government buildings gather at downtown facilities all across the nation and pray

So to me that can't be a bad thing, you know that that in it itself so So that's that's kind of my take on it, you know

Philosophically and then like I said with the sovereignty of God is you never know what's produced In those moments, you know, you never know what's produced through that So so and then like I said to give the government some credit

I'm thankful that that there is still a day through Congress that is stated.

This is a national day of prayer and The Congress encourages people to turn to God in prayer and meditation.

So I know what that means to me and And I'm thankful for that, you know, so I Can definitely understand we're both, you know, both sides of things.

I mean I can see listen to you guys talk I can see where there's places that We could think very deeply about and places that you know

We could improve on and if you know any of us We're in a place where we could make a decision and say

We need to you know Change this or we could do this better I'm sure we can name some of those things.

But then like you said there there's a lot to be thankful for in Opportunities like this.

So yeah, I definitely I definitely see I think that's I think that's a good balance A good place to be, you know, not wholeheartedly on one side of the other

Realizing that we can improve and As one of the things that we could continue to bring it under the

Lordship of Christ But also where we are be thankful for you know, what

God has given us in that So I appreciate you answering that. Can I shoot one more question from the here before we're talking about?

Yeah, it really brings up something and this is spontaneous guys. So forgive me Well, you know and it does tap in and press in on our eschatology and some of those kind of things

There is a belief in our in our culture that we are now a post -christian nation.

That's a pretty common Statement that we now are a post -christian nation.

So how do you guys feel about that? I mean, that's something that I struggle with and and that Christianity is on the decline in our nation and things of that nature.

You hear all these statistics and All these kind of things coming out. So and again, I know we we are just seeing a glimpse of vapor in the eons of time but What y 'all's perspective on that because I think that's something that that's more the positive side

That I see this the reason I say that what you're thinking Is that if indeed we are a post -christian nation, but yet we still have days

That across the nation Primarily, it's primarily Christians It's really speaking to Christians are primarily gathering and praying and I still think that's where I that's where I feel like it's a it's more positive than negative so But what y 'all's opinions on that Do you want to go first?

Don't matter to me so Just my thoughts right off the hip.

I Mean if we go back all the way back to the founding I Would say that it was to me

And I could always be proven wrong and corrected But I would I would look at the founding of this nation and and see our documents

You know the the faith of our founders and I would say that this this country was was never

Never a Christian nation, and I'm not even sure that our founders intended it to be a Christian nation

And that's that kind of goes back to the one of the points that you made when you're talking about the National Day of Prayer You know, we have a

National Day of Prayer. And what did you say that Congress? called for Just Their statement is turned to God and prayer and meditation yeah, so just like all of our founding documents that they continue to Use the generic documents like that so that it covers all religions and we don't

The state or the government doesn't favor one over the other and so that's

So our government is not submitting to the Lordship of Christ we are we are saying that you know, all all are kind of equal in their in their ability to you know worship and Do how to do what they please in this country?

And that that may be possible Simultaneously with a government that says, you know, we're under the

Lordship of Christ You know, you're you're welcome to stay here You can worship how you want to but this government is under the

Lordship of Christ that you know, that could be possible but as far as our nation I'm not sure how it can be

Post -christian if it was was never Christian in the first place and never intended to be a

Christian nation and now going to eschatology that Dan and I hold my opinion would be

We're going to get there he's drawing all nations to himself and You know, there may be

There may be some chastising going on or or we may just be

The people who are not the loudest at this moment or we may be the minority because of you know, our slackness our failure to you know

Obey Christ in all areas as the church So it may be one of those time periods where you know, the

Lord is is, you know Lifting his hand to give us, you know, what we want because we've been disobedient but in the trajectory of it

And it's not just that and it goes goes back to the Israel thing

You know in the pre -millennial dispensational Eschatology, you know, they they think that Israel is going to come to Christ There's there's a plan for Israel and we believe that too but we also believe that it's not just Israel that God is drawing all nations to himself and So that's part of that process.

So we're looking for that day where Israel America all all nations are being drawn to Zion You know desiring his law and desiring his

His kingship and so that's that's my positive spin my positive outlook

Knowing that knowing the trajectory So, I believe eventually we will be and that's that's

God's plan so Dan, what are your thoughts? Yeah, when when the

When the country was founded and our founding documents were put together they tried to put in there

Amen and a woman I hear you When all those things were put together they tried to put in there that our nation was a nation under the lordship of Jesus Christ and That was taken out before the final draft was written and signed so we were explicitly

Taking that away now. I will say this our nation was founded on inherently

Christian biblical principles but We denied the lordship of Christ by taking that out of explicitly out of our

Constitution so really kind of what you have here is is America is really an experiment in What happens to a people who adhere to biblical principles?

But don't necessarily embrace the author of those scriptures They don't know the

God who's the righteousness found in the Bible is meant to point to Christ because it's all his righteousness

He is a standard of what is what is good So As far as being post

Christian, I would say not necessarily and I'm going a different direction than than Robert I don't know if we as a nation ever will

Turn around. I don't know if we will or not. That's completely up to God He is drawing all peoples to himself.

So whatever happens to America the church is going to thrive Americans will be saved through the process if we repent as a nation

The nation will flourish if not Psalm 2 tells us that he is standing there waiting to judge us for our sin

So really Whether we're pre post or declining rising whichever way the important thing to think about is

Where are we at now? And what should we be doing where we're at now is we're mired in sin.

What do we need to do? We need to repent we need to turn to Christ. We need to preach the gospel We need to call people to the love and compassion of Jesus We need to show that love through their service through gospel through planting churches

Making schools hospitals the whole nine yards it It doesn't really matter

Our job is the same and God will get the glory No matter what happens in our nation.

No matter what? Point on the timeline we are in our history So Well, those things are

It's it's good to try to think through those things where you're out on the timeline because if you understand the situation you're in you'll know better how to react or how to act and how to Completely misunderstand the situation you may do something that you think is right, but just it's like throwing gas on the fire

So, I don't know there's a whole bunch of Stuff maybe battle. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and I and I and I hear what you're saying both of you And I guess what you said then is what

I was getting at. I think inherently we have biblical principles that have guided our government decisions

I don't disagree. I agree totally with the Lordship of Christ and I think that was on purpose just simply because I think

America was founded in a place where Well, we're not going to dictate to people in order to be an

American you have to You have to be a Christian in order to be American, you know And I don't necessarily disagree with that even like struggling through You know

Teacher led or administration led prayer in school. There's positives and negatives to that, you know

I mean, I obviously if I have my preference I want strong Christian Leadership in schooling and unapologetic leadership, and I'm thankful for the area that we live in You know you have

Strong Christian leaders in our school system that are having to navigate that the political Side of it and so I'm very thankful for those but at the same time,

I don't want a Muslim Principal that's very possible to have then to come and dictate to my kids

You have to bow down to Allah, you know from a from a governmental standpoint, so I see the tension

There but at the same time it's a bad misunderstanding of separation in church and state Nobody can stop a kid from praying.

Nobody can stop a kid from leading prayer Nobody can stop the kids from carrying their Bible in school. Obviously, it's a math class.

Have you? Sorry But but obviously if it's if it's my class have your math book out do what you're supposed to be doing in a public school

System, but but at the same time nobody can tell a kid they can't carry their Bible read it in the hallway

Pull out have Bible study at lunch All those kind of things and so that's the deception I think that comes

But I think we need to overcome where there is a liberty. There is a freedom of religion even in public

Governmental places and I think that sorry my phone's blowing up all of a sudden

So I think that's the deception that happens When I when I talk about post post

Christian mindset, there was a time in our country where that was Unapologetically done but now there's a deception across the land.

It's like oh you can't do that Oh, you can't do that. Oh, yes, we can you know, there is liberties that we have a freedom of religion that I can do that and I will do this and And so that's that's just something that You know as we're going through National Day of Prayer, you know there's an insecurity about gathering students gathering and parents gathering and Praying publicly in front of a school system or in front of a government building or in front

There's this place like I don't know if we're really allowed to do this. You're absolutely allowed to do it

Absolutely allowed to do it. And so that's all I'm trying to say is I Think that's some of the things that that we need to be proponents of in Christianity There is a legal right

That we have as Americans to be Christian, you know, and and we need to practice that and exercise that As commanded and then there's going to be suffering that comes as a result of that I think the

American culture and Christianity has has backed away from those things because we're we're unwilling to suffer or unwilling to be like looked at weird when

The car rider line comes by like who's those weirdos praying out there or whatever, you know?

And typically other people that would call themselves Christians. They don't look at you as a weirdo And I read you anyway

So so anyways, it's just it's just something that I've been laboring through and like like Dan said, I'm I'm really

I don't think it Really affects how I think about Our actions as a local church and our mission as a local church but definitely culturally across the nation

The timeline that we're at what what has got up to are we a nation under judgment? Are we a nation on the verge of judgment?

Are we in a nation that's in in a grace period where God is? Drawing and impatient and loving and kind Why has

God turned us over to to an ungodly government there are people that that are

God haters and hate the things of God why I've got turned us over to that are we We're not

Jews. So by the way, don't don't consider me a heretic to using this illustration But I felt like a long time ago.

I preached a sermon. Why is there no godly choice? In a voting system, you know that we've had multiple times that we

Had candidates and there was no Christ centered candidates And so why has

God left us with no option in his sovereignty? And so is he turning this over to her to the Babylonians, you know

Is he turning this over to the Nebuchadnezzar or whatever, you know? so I just think as Christians, it's important for us to consider the higher picture and And and what

God is doing and that's every nation. That's not that's the whole world And of course, I think we're responsible for for our local nation where God has put us in the name

Christ to live and we're named Christ to serve and our name Christ to preach and So anyways, I'm just I'm just I'm I'm intrigued by the by the broader scope of things to Where we're at.

So anyways not to digress because I know we got a great topic to talk about Let me get your thoughts on this

I'll just I'll just carry out a little line of logic or or line of thinking and get your thoughts on it.

So So you got you got two things going on that that we say yes and amen to so use the example that you used we're in a classroom setting and so we don't want a

Person of a different religion to force our kids to pray to their God. Yes, and amen.

We don't want that and Like you said if we force Repentance we force morality onto someone it's not true genuine change of a heart.

So You know, we don't want to force Christ on anybody. So we kind of Leave ourselves and kind of a generic state

So so that we're not being forced. Nobody's forcing us and we're not forcing anybody else and and you know

One of one side of us says yes and amen to that But one of the consequences that we've seen

I think we can look up to Canada and see As The the secular as secularism increases

Christianity becomes a hate group And you have pastors being arrested because they they're not closing their churches

If you if you try to counsel someone out of a sin, you're you're a hate group

So as secularism increases we Christianity becomes a hate group and It's because we've not submitted to the

Lordship of Christ and kept it generic So, what are you what are your thoughts on just that?

Yeah, right on I mean I 100 % agree and I think I think we we have avoided becoming the

You know, I mean, I think we've avoided who we're supposed to be. I mean Jesus said they're gonna hate you but don't forget they hated me first, you know, all that refused to be godly

All that you call me will be persecuted And so I think the silence of the church has become evident because we refuse to Leave that and it wasn't too long ago.

We were praying and worshipping Um And it was really the first time

I went and You know, there was some vile hateful Things said to us done to us

Said to my children said to my wife all this kind of things. It's just words and and it was

Right in our face. I mean it really could be considered verbal assault in some ways I just think

Much Anyways Now I left there and I thought you know what i've never experienced that before and Is it better I don't know a little bit a little bit a little bit better.

Sorry. Yeah, I don't know. Um, but anyways, I just um I left there thinking hey, i've never experienced that before and uh and the holy spirit really

Convicted my heart In that moment and it was just a moment. It's not a moment. It was Like i've never experienced that before because i've never done anything like That before I never put myself

In the fire like that because on sunday morning you stand up to preach Typically nobody's gonna be mad at you for what you say.

They might be but You know most of the time Most of the time, you know, you've got a group

Of christians and and they're gonna say yes, amen, you know Oh and and giving out food to the neighborhood

Good and serving the poor and both And nobody's gonna hate you for that. It's only when you stand in opposition of sin

And you stand in opposition to thank the lord against god's design like abortion You know standing against that and that's of course a hot

Top of the suite but but standing against that But now you're trading in the enemy territory now you're

Passing light into dark places and everybody's gonna do everything They can to put your mind down. They're gonna do everything they can including physical threats life

Threats, I don't think there's anybody in the ministries that are there Every day that they've not had death threats on them

You know multiple death threats. Um So so I you know, so going back full circle with all of that, you know

I do think persecution right from canada will trickle into our country. I think that is

Part of my thought too is as our country becomes more and more secular And it's thought process waters down even as an apparent biblical principles

Even though it's not a government under the lordship of christ. There's an Apparent biblical principles that still have bevan the law

But as those things are rendered away then I think in the timeline of things that's where the church

Will shine but how has the church always shine abroad? it's been through persecution and suffering and so so I think

At a minimum We need to be preparing our kids for greater persecution um,

I think we're we're still in Season of grace. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel

Threatened by their podcast. I'm not worried about coming and picking down a door and trying to find this tonight You know that kind of stuff because We're trying to speak truth.

Um But I definitely could see that later in my life At the rate that the erosion is going or death in my kid's life time if they do podcasts like this

You know, they're going to need to do them for more and more of this closed location you know that that's not threatening to Um to them being arrested or imprisoned or those kind of stuff

So the rest of the world that's exactly what's happening, you know, but we Are still in a bubble of grace in a lot of ways because even just north of us in canada there's

People being arrested, you know, of course it goes without saying across china and iraq and afghanistan and the middle east and india

And all the kind of places through that Part of the world it's common practice people Are arrested and beaten for speaking the gospel and so, um

So that's what i'm saying. I think our freedom becomes Fringed on more and more I guess so it could be a new one

For certain that's my national day of the prayer To me, I feel like are still a positive thing

Because it's for exercising the freedom and exposing the right That we may not have for generations

You know, we may or may not I think I think there's two that will fight for that, but I still

Think we're in that space where we may or may not have Have that in the future. So I don't know but You know, that's that's part of my line of thought even that In that question.

Are we are we heading more and more toward a A more hyper secular society

That's total relativism Total, you know, you do you I'll do me and as long as you don't offend me with what you do then

You know, we'll be fine but as soon as you you know, when we start holistically as a society

Love is unconditionally acceptance of everything I do then Now we've really missed the definition of love

When we say tolerance of everything I do is the only way to demonstrate that you love me

You tolerate everything I do now. We've now we Now we've genuinely infringed on the freedom of freedom of speech freedom of thinking the freedom of religion all of Those things that I think make america

Who who america once was you know? or the foundation of what he did so The bigger subject, you know,

I mean and uh but that's where my line of thought through all of that, you know, and and my again

You know, I feel Even though it's not a government to move to a little cheaper price I I agree.

It's not It's not the ideal of what we want. That's just the same as this even if Which is overturned by federal government

In abortion, that just means that abortion is decided state by State and you guys know that but I just want to put that out there

Can't say somebody hears it there's a lot of people think You know, it really wages overturned now abortion ends in the nation

No, it doesn't end in the nation. It just means that the legislation of abortion goes to the state now, fortunately

I feel like we do have some very conservative states and it will End in those states, you know, it will be a political legal battle

But I do think you'll have people that will prevail And you'll have other states that it's going to be

Increasing, you know that the state Legislation and it will will push it through uh, so um, so it's the same thing in this, you know, um i'm

Thankful That will be ready potentially will be turned over But that doesn't mean the work's done, you know

That it's not perfected. That's kind of the way I look at Even actually a prayer. I'm thankful that we have a national bear

I'm thankful that we have a congressman who's turned to god and led to things of god, you know i'm I'm thankful for that Where we're going to where they're calling out to submit to the lordship

Of jesus christ and live as he is commanded to live and flourish under the law of god and the law of christ, it's not

Perfected in that so So that's what i'm saying And i'm like the band. I don't really ever will be in our country

I'm actually i'm not real optimistic that it will be until uh

There's a dominion In that case anyways, thanks, uh

That's a long answer i'm sorry If you if you could take one moment though to try to make a adjustment if you can

I think we were able to piece together what you were saying, but you were breaking in and out um, so Yeah Here's another comment and regardless of of it

Of if the government says we can Or not one day our government laws come from god first and foremost as believers absolutely obey god first before man

Agree, I agree. How about now? Is it better? Yeah, great Sounds great. Okay. Yeah, you sounded like you were on a click track before All right, well good maybe it wasn't that important to hear anyways, so Well, no, it was really good stuff and it was good stuff, you know, we could spend the whole time talking about That and we could talk about you know, the things going on the conversation what we were thinking about uh roe versus wade and that Possibility of it being overturned.

I mean, that's a great conversation um And not only are those great topics but My hope is that people will see this discussion.

We're talking about national day of prayer. Uh, we're talking about roe versus wade and We want to have these type of discussions and not shy away.

I still see so many people Um shying away because they don't think theology is important.

They don't think um They just think well, we need we need to share the gospel.

We need to share jesus and that's all we need to do Um, this this theology stuff is not important Um, and that's a whole nother conversation but as as men as churches thinking through these things and making sure that we are aligning ourselves with scripture with with What god wants us to be doing

I hope this is an example for people on how to do that Which you know kind of leads us to this conversation where we were going to go tonight

Biblical foundations and necessities of starting or restarting a church or for any church to to reevaluate

Um, so let's let's get started with that um and just continue this this

Thing that we're doing this organic thing where we're uh thinking through these things Um, this is this is my list that I put together

Um, and so it's not a list that that dan or or john Uh, now

I did talk to jonathan last uh last week about some of these Uh, but this is not our list.

This is not our compilation. There's some few things that I put together. So um I'm going to give a really brief explanation.

Let you guys do some talking um And if you if you don't think it's a necessity if you if you maybe think it's a secondary thing

I'm, okay with that. You you just let me know And we can kind of compile a list and if i'm missing something

We can add it So i'm going to start with number one. Um a necessity for starting a church or a

Re -evaluating church restarting a church a repenting people And I think we need to be a repenting people um

The christianity is not just I repented one time of my sin and i'm finished repenting

Uh, we we are continuously repenting We are a people who if the holy spirit is working on us.

We are more aware of our sin Um as we grow in holiness, we we are more aware of how unholy we are and so we we are

A continuously repenting people. Um, we are people who maybe cause things within a church that that caused the church to be in a place that needs to restart or I I just think this foundational for a healthy church a restarting church a replanting church and um

This is something that after I listened to dan's sermon that he posted about maybe two weeks ago, I think now um,

I really think sure, um dan if if you could touch on um

One part of your sermon where you where you talked about how you were in leviticus and I think you were in uh, first corinthians 16

Okay Six chapter six And you brought out something really important how

Our personal sin We you know, we think we we think our sin doesn't affect anybody, you know, i'm not hurting anybody.

So, you know, it's okay I won't continue my sin but how our sin

Affects the body our church And um,

I I thought that was a very important point and and another reason why we need to be

Aware of our need to repent because it doesn't just affect us You can you touch on that?

Yeah, i'll give you a 30 second recap of a 40 minute sermon

Uh, I was I was in leviticus looking at the day of atonement and One of the things that really struck out at me and what

I kind of focused on was that the mercy seat the Uh most holy place in the temple, uh, it was it said that the one there was a bunch of Death going on.

There was a bowl that was killed to cleanse. Aaron. Aaron had to wash had to uh, sprinkle himself clean

And then there was one goat the one goat was then Slaughtered and the blood was used to purify the most holy place and the mercy seat and the tent and the altar and then the other goat had the uh

The sins of the nation professed over it and then it was led off into the wilderness off out away from the people as far as the east is for west

I got to thinking how or why or What way did that sin get to the most holy place if god was living there?

And god has no sin. Then. How did the sin get there? The sin gets there because our sin doesn't just stay within us.

We're like a thig pen I should have brought this up thig pen is dirty, right? But he's got the cloud around him and wherever he gets close to somebody

It rubs off if you go to first corinthians um Six you come towards the end.

It gives a list of things that that we shouldn't do But then it talks about how you as an individual shouldn't join yourself to a prostitute

And he says you shouldn't join yourself to a prostitute the one who does Uh sins against not only himself but his own body

And then and all the all the time there the u Is in the singular Then he switches gears and he starts to he starts to apply it when you get down into verse 19, he says well, let me uh

Let me actually read it It's right here And Y 'all appreciate this but when

I was in um greek classes Second person plural was the word y 'all so it's a

Yeah, amen So when you get down into verse 19 it switches from a first person's

Or a second person singular, which is you? to a second person plural Y 'all so if you read it like like a southern person

Um, it says or do y 'all not know? That y 'all's body and that word body is singular

Y 'all's one body Is a temple of the holy spirit within you

Whom you have from god you are not your own For you were bought with a price of glorified god in your body

What I believe the principle behind those two passages is

Is that when we sin individually We take that sin to the church with us now

I had somebody push back on me on this today, and I think it's helpful to clarify they said i'm not responsible for Their sin when they bring it in i'm like you're right that guilt does not come on you, but The people of my church

Will suffer if i'm living in unrepentant sin If i'm looking at pornography and beating my wife and doing all sorts of terrible stuff at home

And I bring that mess into the church My church is going to suffer because of it not because they're guilty of my sins

But because they're in close proximity to me and i'm not repenting of my sin It causes all sorts of trouble so getting back to church planning and repenting

It's very important that I don't know if I put it repenting but that is absolutely a important piece of it um, but being gospel centered that those who sin repent

And that those who repent don't just turn from what they're doing to something else. That's not god's gospel

But they turn from their sin and trust in jesus christ. So that way When we come together when we assemble ourselves as a church

If somebody confesses a sin to us the first thing that goes through our mind should not be judgment or i'll look at them or what are they doing, but Brother, i'm glad you came to me sister.

I'm glad you came to me because we have a god who forgives sin Let's turn from that sin together and march on towards the cross trusting in christ to forgive us of our sins because that right there is the

Is the unifying factor of the church is that we were sinners

God has called us out of that and called us to be a people Assembled together working towards righteousness not in our own effort

But by trusting in the gospel of christ and repenting and turning from our sin That's good.

What are your thoughts on repentance john? um I want to Oh, I don't

I know it's not a pushback. I want to take a different definition of repentance. Okay. Um Because I feel like the repentance of sin is is the is the

Is the fruit of genuine repentance? So it's almost like you have Biblical repentance from my understanding is is really and truthfully a turning or changing of mind

So in church planting um The change of mind and in church revitalization the change of mind

Is absolutely essential For success in that term of repentance and then an outflow of a change of my mind is well

Then my actions are against god. So now i've changed my mind of what I what I once What's love now?

I hate and and but it's not only dealing with sin repentance Is even dealing with praxis.

It's even dealing with what my focus is. It's All those kind of things and so for example, you know a lot of guys

Uh plant churches so they can become successful pastors

Or we planted churches because you've got two groups of people in a church They're just mad at each other and they split over Silly things so now we're going to go plant another church

Or in church revitalization A church is dying because it's forsaken the mission of the gospel and so repentance

Even though those things may be sinful repentance is really to me a change of mind. And so in other words

If a church is going to be revitalized Then in then there's repentance in the mission, for example

Um, because a lot of traditional churches the whole focus is how can I pacify the tithers?

How can I how can I? How can I create a worship service that that makes christians happy?

And attracts more christians and even church planting a lot of times looks that way that it's targeting disgruntled

People in maybe traditional church and let's make this new shiny attractive thing that everybody else is terrible and and everybody else is just Not even a real church come do what we do because we're exciting and we got a cool band or we got this or we

Got that or those kind of things Amen So there's there has to be genuine repentance over that a full change of mind

From that that that that is not the mission of jesus The mission of jesus is to to go and go seek.

I didn't he said I didn't come we're preaching through luke right now He said I didn't come For the saved I didn't come for the healthy.

I came for the broken and the lost I came for the sick in Those kind of things and so really and truthfully if we're going to have

Revitalization and planting or replanting churches The repentance has to be a return to not just doing organized church

But it has to be a focus toward the mission of jesus. What is in defining? What is the mission of jesus and then from that from those scriptures?

Then then it goes back to galatians the law of god Which we talked about a lot over the last several, you know podcast with the law that becomes a mirror to us

So even the law of christ the mission of christ then becomes a mirror That we look at and then as a result, we're like, oh my goodness.

I have I have forsaken the mission of the gospel So therefore there's real repentance, which is still sin by the way.

Okay. I mean it may not be a moral sin like pornography or or or infidelity or abuse or this kind of thing, but it's still

It's the corporate sin of the church and it's actually the sin of the leaders of the church With leading with a false mission with a mission that jesus never even mandated to begin with And and so repentance comes when we shift our mind change our mind toward.

Okay. What is the what is the mission of jesus? And then unapologetically saying this is what we're going to be about And so that's that's shifting the dna of the church.

So it's so that's all i'm saying I would I would define repentance as We got to change our mind.

We got to realign with What what the mission of jesus is and and then from that it reveals all kinds of sin and selfishness and Things that that the church might not even consider

Sinful. Okay, that that's that's all i'm trying to say that we if we're really going to become a pure bride though.

That's That's what we have to realign with and so when I think of repentance, that's what it is and we we spent some time

Deliberating on that significantly in the church plants that we do is is making sure that that core group aligns with the mission of jesus that that we're checking the motives and And testing

Why do we even want to continue to do this and then revitalization becomes the same way in the churches that we're revitalizing

When we meet with our leaders We ask them what what is the what's the whole reason you want to do revitalization?

Like what is what is the prime thing that is at stake in this? And of course, they're they're going to give you the the sunday school answer.

They're going to be like, well, it's the glory of god's at stake But really if you spend time with them and pack them, it's really not to them the glory of god

It's well, my grandpa built this building and my great great grandpa Donated the land and we put all our life into this and we just hate to see

This building not used the way it's supposed to be so really and truthfully Their whole mission is to bring the glory to the building that that they're saying um that so or it's

Whatever else the tradition the fatted cow that they're bowing down to the golden calf that they're bowing down to And and and that's where real repentance has to happen.

It is is identifying the idolatry Of the local church and they don't even realize it.

It's very subtle and it's tradition over years and it's created idolatry. That's forsaken The real mission of jesus and the glory of god, so So to me, that's that's what repentance is and then of course

The outcropping of that is turning from sin and any other sin that comes in our lives as well.

So I'm just taking notes That's some good stuff.

Um, so just to clarify, I think I think i've got what you said down Turn from Some turn from our hold on the church and and I I don't want that to be taken the wrong way because we we want to have a hold on the bride of christ but our our

Hold our ways of the church and then you you kind of clarify that Uh, we're not to bring glory to the building tradition or the big influencers

Um, so we need to release our whole turn from our hold on the church and turn towards the mission of jesus

Well, dan said something really important he he used the term gospel centered Which which I personally believe

I think you guys would agree with me. The gospel is not just an object It's the person of jesus christ the the there's the person of jesus

He is the good news Gospel translated good news. He is the good news.

So it's a gospel centered or christ -centered gospel preaching christ -centered preaching church

And so so that's the first question I usually ask Uh in in a revitalization or in a core group that's planting

What who's in the center of this like what what does this ministry evolve around?

Who is the head of this? And if there's any other answer Then jesus christ is the head and jesus christ is the center

Or jesus christ is the head and the gospel is the center, you know that those kind of language things uh

Then there's not genuine repentance and if they can't say that with with real authenticity not just from regurgitation, but real authenticity saying

I am not the center of this. This is not about me. This is about him This is not about the history of this place

This is about jesus and jesus can do whatever he wants to with this He can burn it down or he can lift it up Whatever he wants to do this is his and it's all his and it's always been his and it's always going to be his

This is his um But really truth if you go and ask a lot of churches that need revitalization the reason

Ichabod is there on the door and the spirit of god has been withdrawn is because it's not His even though it is they just they're not submitted to that.

They're saying no. This is ours This is ours. This is my church. This is what I have done and they preference everything with I've given a lot of money and i've put in a lot of time and i've been here for all these years and i've done

This and i've done that and so therefore I deserve to have my way Then repentance needs to be

Practiced in that of a change of mind that ain't none of this belongs to us. It all belongs to him

He is the head And what he what he wills Is what we need to submit to and and and then a lot of times we're afraid of that though We don't realize what he wills is his church to flourish

He his will I don't have any problem saying that his will is for his bride to flourish

His bride to be missional his bride to accomplish his mission Which in return will be successful not in a worldly sense necessarily, but it will be successful It will be unifying to the body.

It will cause the one anothering the loving one anothering and so it will cause the inreach and the outreach and I mean, that's the flourishing but we don't have that because there's not been genuine repentance and a change of mind in the church.

So That that is such a key component everything else that you that you have on your list robert flows out in my mind from that mindset of of what is revitalization and what is that, you know, so So i'm i'm coupling that with the with the point of repentance that it is a change of mind and uh and a unifying in the mission of jesus and so uh, so that's

Those two things that you said, um kind of play off each other. Um, and even more than that Uh, jesus jesus is the head.

So jesus is the head you're going to have a gospel -centered church And if you've got a gospel -centered church You're going to have jesus

Yeah, I mean one is the result of the other that's right, I mean it's a circle right there and uh, you're talking about It's god's will for the church to flourish.

Um, and and that's You know, that's spiritually and sometimes that's you know

That as well that's spiritually as well. And and sometimes that's the evidence that we see of flourishing

Is this the spiritual evidence sometimes I think about scripture and you think about the disciples

Um who were in prison And you can say well, that's the decline that's you know, that's how how can the church be flourishing when they're in prison?

What did they do when they were in prison? They sang And they worshiped god.

And uh, so there was there was spiritual flourishing and that spiritual flourishing uh, just spread over into the jailer

Absolutely and here's dan one of dan's favorite verses i'm sure it's spilled over into uh his household, right?

It it did but that doesn't prove everything that people say it does Let's don't digress too far boys a lot of people's like what are you talking about?

So that's right. I'm joking. I'm joking But does that make sense, you know,

I just and I don't mean to over talk on this one particularly but um When we do this, this is this when we walk through local churches and through church plants this this one factor that we're talking about right now sets

The tone for everything else and and I just tell folks if you don't have right dna

In the beginning with a repentant heart to die to self and live unto christ That christ is king

There's not a pastor. That's the head of this church to try to become famous This is not about the accolades that I can figure out as a lead pastor

This is not to make some praise team get more records. This is not to To you know, and if if that happens as a result of christ being king, so be it but if that if but if If that is sinner then even that That public fame if you will or lower story fame

Because obviously the apostles were very famous as well I mean peter walks in and they bow down to worship him and say don't worship me

You know he he even in his fame He still knew who was the head of his life And and so there's some churches that god will make famous and some churches that god will keep

Paul washer said he believes some of the greatest preachers and churches ever are those that are never known that god keeps them all to himself

You know that he he never reveals them to the rest of the world. But either way if if this is right

Then then it doesn't mean a man still can't fall prey to to worldly success, but if this is right um, even even in in those churches that god chooses to to reveal and use on a on a broader scale

It won't go to their head because christ is still king You know, this is this is for his glory and that pastor will be really quick to say don't worship me

You worship the one that I worship My job is just to point you to him and reflect unto him so um, but but a lot of people hadn't had this right in the beginning

And then they've gotten successful and as a result It becomes theirs you know, it becomes their vision and their accolades and And when that pastor dies

Really what happens to the church, you know, or whatever that thing that's involved around um

It won't last and so so this is important for The mission and the ministry to last beyond um

What it's what what what will even what beyond will us living, you know that if this dna is right and even if you

And we all do it's a slippery slope man For all of us. It's a very slippery slope in church leadership to maintain this perfectly

It's easy to to slide into people appeasing, you know, and and it's easy to slide into Legalism if you're not careful,

I mean it's like all these kind of slippery places and But but if you get a real genuine foundation of this type of repentance and change of mind and seeking christ

You may slide to one side or slide to the other but the dna brings you back to center it keeps you

Where where the foundation needs to be and so that's why I say too. There's some churches Um that that god will kill that that they will die and then there'll be a new plan

There's not there's not really a revitalization That god's going to allow because the dna is so corrupt of people -centeredness that That he'll let that generation die even that that local church die and close

And then then he'll replant it with by grace in a in a different dna a new dna, you know so that's that's a lot larger topic, but this statement of repentance is absolutely crucial not only of Not only of of sin as you as you guys talked about earlier, you know, but But it's really a changing of mind of why we're going to do

What we're going to do. It's changing the mind of people and And we won't walk with churches in revitalization until they've proven

That this is really what's happened that there's been a genuine repentance a genuine change of mind a desperation for the glory of christ

And those other motives Begin to melt away, you know, they're not perfectly all going to be gone because there are secondary motives.

Don't get me wrong That's not necessarily bad but But a lot of times those secondaries become the primary and when that happens, it's idolatry, you know, and god's not going to bless that Well, and that's one of the reasons why

I appreciate the guys in our group that we're working with here, um specifically this pastors panel podcast or whatever we want to call it the this group of men because I firmly believe from what i've the evidence that i've seen so far is everybody that we've worked with Has submitted that heart that that attitude to christ

And and I think that's key, you know, we won't we want the whole core group to be that way

But it certainly to me in my opinion key for the leadership to be leading in that direction

Absolutely. So that's why i'm so appreciate appreciative for for you guys and uh, just one final thought on one of the things you said we were talking about Traditional we talk call them traditional churches, but churches that have been established for you know, a really long time and and I think there's a the the type of ownership changes so like when you have the

More of the founders or more of the beginning folks, um They own it because they started it type thing

But then their children and grandchildren have a different kind of ownership And ownership of sentimentality this, you know, that's how this is how it's been.

This is how I grew up This is you know, this is what i'm comfortable with so absolutely and we've got to just whichever situation we're in whether we're the

Beginners of it we were there at the beginning or we are the Or you know the fruit of of those founders

And have it have that ownership with sentimentality or because it's a sentimentality and emotionalism

Release it and say and turn to the mission of jesus like you were saying. I think that's fantastic uh, let's move to uh, the next one on my list was

Be a be a matthew 22 37 through um 40 people Which says and everybody most people should be familiar with this

You shall love the lord your god with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind This is the great and foremost commandment second is like it.

You shall love your neighbors yourself on these two commandments Um on these two commandments depend the whole law and the prophets and I think about the west ministry confession of faith

Um Which which I equate to the first one, you know, love the lord lord your god with all your heart lines on the strength um our um

Our greatest means how does it go is is to what's the question? The shorter catechism first question.

Yeah What is the chief end of man the chief end of man? Yes is to glorify god

Forever Yeah And so you god is our focus. We want to glorify him.

That should be our heart attitude and then the second of those that jesus gives is Um, love your neighbor as yourself

The widows the orphans your enemy your your wife your husband your children

That that encompasses just about everybody is one of buddy balkan's famous sermons is so That that mindset of loving god glorifying him enjoying him forever and and loving our neighbor and in all the different ways that jesus commands us to Do you think that's a foundational?

Mindset and practice practice or practice of the church. Yes Yes All right

But if you if y 'all want to keep it short that's fine too, um, Here's why um, it's real easy to think of coming into church or going into a a body of people you can get used to the folks get used to the the rhythms of it and and go to Church as a

I don't know a uh It's just something else you do like this is where I go this is where I belong and then it'd be divorced of any real

Love of god with your heart soul and mind so it's It's more than just Enjoying going to church or enjoying the fellowship of the saints.

There's a real all the time love of god with your heart with your soul with your mind the way you think the way you um

The way you feel the way that you The way that you go about your life has to be permeated about it.

It's not just another thing that you do it's not like Well, I have two equal things here.

I have you know a baseball game or going to church You know, I should love church because god's there but I really want to go to this baseball game

That's not loving god with all your heart soul mind um so That that's why that's

I think why it's important because if we treat it as just something else then what we've done is we've We've claimed god to be our god

But actually has something else in its place in his place. So we have it's almost like we've got idolatry and then we're lying about it

That's right. So it's gotta be it's I guess a good word. It's genuine There's a genuine love of god with all of your being

So, let me ask you something why do you go to church If you were to ask a normal christian person, why do you go to church?

What do you what's going to be the most common answer? I just keep hearing all the different The different answers that i've heard.

So I ask people this all the time because we're in neighborhoods We're in the street all the time. Why do you why do you go to this church?

Yeah, and about 90 90 Percent plus we'll say I go to this church because of what

I get out of it And just just notice this command has really nothing to do with what you get out of it.

It's what you give into it Right, so it's loving god and loving your neighbors And so that is an absolute key component in the mindset of a revitalization and a plant

Is this is not necessarily you're not doing this just because of what you get out of it Now do you get if you really love god with all your heart mind soul and strength?

Are you going to get anything out of that? Oh, yeah Of course and if you and if you love your neighbor, I mean if you really genuinely love your neighbor

Are you going to get anything out of that? And of course you will there there's blessing that I mean you you receive, you know, but But just notice the commands and so most of the time people are going to say

I go there because this is what I get Out of it. Yeah and and that's the american mindset of how you choose what church to go to based on what they have to offer me and what

I have to You know what I can get out of this And so so i'm just saying in church planting and church revitalization.

That's a mindset that has to absolutely be killed That this is not about what you can get out of it

This is what you can what you can give into worship unto god and this is how you can pour your life into others

And then leave the giving back to god And then and then let it be very organic

That somebody else is going to come along and love you as a neighbor They're going to pour their life into you you're actually going to be the neighbor even though you're loving a neighbor now

You're the neighbor and someone's pouring their life into you and it becomes reciprocal in that but the motivation is not what

I get It's how much I can Serve and how much I can give and so if we're really going to see revival and revitalization

And in a plant it has to be that has to be the first mindset Yeah i'm glad you said what you said because it was that's just a perfect summary of You know,

I talked about hearing all the different reasons why people give well your summary was all those things

It described all those things Because people have different reasons at different stages in their life why they go to this church, but ultimately it's what they can get out of it

All right, so all right number three, uh doctrinal unity And I think

If you have good leadership, I think there's going to be a A good robust core doctrinal understanding

Um, but I think it can our understanding and our unity will grow um

But I I mean, I think we need to have the foundational things on point

What do you guys think? Absolutely We use the terminology in our church of open -handed and closed -handed

And so on on closed -handed issues Those are non non -negotiables of orthodox christianity orthodox doctrine that are that we we're not even open for discussion about you know when it comes to the substitutionary atonement of christ and Christ being the only way the authority of scripture the inerrancy of scripture

Um infallibility of scripture those things of that nature that god exists in god the father son and holy spirit.

He created the earth in seven days and Jesus was born of a virgin

Died and rose again and so on and so forth. He's coming again, you know in a literal second coming that those are those to me are what are just rattling off a few of the

And there's several but like the closed -handed Non -negotiables and then then we do have other things that we

Would say are open -handed. We we typically list out. Here's a few things that we have conviction about Like we we like to poke each other about eschatology and things of that nature you know what

I mean, and i'm thankful that that there's Men of god that that have studied diligently studied to show themselves approved and they have great conviction

About it and and I I value that on every side of the argument as far as that goes every side and I don't even like to use the word argument because It really not something we should argue over.

It's something that we should Share perspective on but it's not something that we should become arrogant about or boastful about, you know, and so um so if those closed -handed issues were united in then

Then the rest of it is is joyful iron sharpening iron growing together

Pressing one another to dig deeper in the word and those kind of things like so for example, I would consider our church a

More reformed in its theology, especially in our soteriology and our study of salvation and our understanding of salvation

That we're very reformed in our ideologies of that But do you have to be a full -blown five -point calvinist in order to be a member of our congregation?

Um, no, you don't there's there's some non -negotiables in those tenets uh for us, but do you have to say that I understand all that there is to limit the atonement and irresistible grace and I can

Perfectly expound on all that. Well, no not necessarily, you know So do you but do you understand the fundamentals of it?

And the non -negotiables of it and the depths of it we're all still digging in deep, you know, so So yes doctrinal unity is absolutely crucial in that I wish those people that that proclaim we don't we just need to preach jesus and uh,

We need just need to pray for one another and not worry so much about all that theology theology and doctrine stuff

I wish those guys just for one second could release That tight grip they have on that mindset

And and sit back and experience what I just experienced when when you started talking about theology and doctrine

Because you you started talking about the inspiration infallibility um Inerrancy of the word god

What does that tell me about who god is? You started talking about the the virgin birth the the sinless perfect life of our savior

You started talking about the the death burial and resurrection the ascension of christ i'm i'm sitting here worshiping just by you

Going over the doctrines of our faith The core doctrines of our faith and and that's to me why they're so important is because they lead to worship

And then they will lead to you know, of course The the application and practice of it. Yeah, and so That that's what

I wish people could experience Sure and my crew Like dan dan not to jump in there because I want you to speak on that too because I know it's very important But like my group if I was to say hey guys

What do you think about the west minister confession or the london baptist confession or like? And and start throwing dates out and all that kind of stuff.

They're gonna be like what you talking about preacher, you know uh, but if I start talking about You know the finished work of jesus even one of the little boys of the day he's he's desiring to be uh baptized and and and you know,

I was counseling with him and You know and I was like, well, let me ask you something. Why? Why should we allow you to be baptized as a profession of faith?

Like what does that mean to you? And he's like Well, i've sinned and I was like, well what saves you from your sin then?

He said the finished work of jesus And this is from the mouth of age, you know, like from a 10 -year -old little kid

And so then I I took great delight in that that he may not know what the west minister confession is Confession or all these other confessions the faith which are important i'm not belittling that But I thought you know, that's a great doctrinal answer.

You know, it really is like a like he and he said it Very firmly and I was like and so I went on we unpacked it.

What's that mean to you then? you know, and we we went on unpack that but you know, here's a 10 year old kid that That from from his sunday school class and from preaching and then from his mom and dad

He's got Full -blown faith in the finished work of jesus. And so You know kind of the ethiopian eunuch what hinders me from being baptized then well nothing because you believe, you know, you believe in my mind so So anyways, praise the lord for that.

Yeah take off dan. Sorry, man. I just wanted to interject that little Uh illustration there.

No, that's great um i've had a a lot of trouble out of doctrinal disunity um

People For whatever reason that you get in certain situations if you not, you know Up one side down the other in agreement with them.

They just they don't want you around And that that's kind of sad. Um Because really there's a lot of room for disagreement and yet unity, um, you know, uh, like we have

These are our standards at church like this is our doctrine center big old Thick webster confession two catechisms, you know baptizing baby in the presence of the supper, you know, hold on yours and uh yet What do we do if you want to come join our church?

We've got a different document It says do you believe the scriptures to be the word of god? Do you believe in the one true living god as revealed in the scriptures?

Do you repent of your sins and confess jesus christ as your savior and lord? Do you promise to submit to him and the teaching um of of Excuse me, i'm trying to summarize it read it all at the same time

Uh, do you promise to uh submit to the lord and to the teaching of his church? uh do you um

Promise to uh grow into christian life and pray and give as you're able Uh, do you purpose to seek first the kingdom of god?

and you make Uh this profession of faith. Um Because you want to see god on the last day

So hey, man, if you believe the bible trust in jesus and go and be a part of us Come on We'll fight about all the way to heaven and we'll enjoy each other and i'll buy you a hot dog or whatever you want we'll we'll discuss it in the whole way not to You know drive you into the dirt

But to hey man, look how great our god is we're going to discuss these things all the way

To eternity. Um, yeah, I don't understand that you know if you don't have the king james you ain't part of the real church or If you're an armenian, you're completely out in left field.

I mean there may be but still They believe in christ and confess him to be their savior

Then I need to treat that confession of faith as if it's genuine until they prove me otherwise Yeah so yeah

Unity of doctrine is something it's very important to have very detailed intricate well explained well thought out theology

It's very important to know Which ones are essential? and which ones

We can work through Handful of essentials a lot of really important stuff

You know don't go off into heresy on something else on down the road, but Here's our starting point and we're going to start there and move on together um

I mean, what did the disciples have? They had someone say hey Come follow me.

That was all they had Follow the point Absolutely.

Well, let me ask you this just to make sure that I heard you correctly. So You held up the westminster confession of faith and the catechisms and this is this is what your church holds to But did you talk about having somebody coming and wanting to join the church that may not?

Agree with everything in the westminster as long so you had like a separate um

Faith statement that as long as they held to these things there's Yeah, yeah, there's a they're they're uh, the opc a lot of presbyterians have this um the rpcna the denomination i'm a part of has seven vows that you

Agree to when you join the church Um, do you believe in the scriptures of the word of god?

Do you believe that there's only one god who's revealed in the scriptures? Do you trust him to take away your sin?

No, do you believe the gospel? um, do you promise to submit to the church the way that the bible says um that you should by um

Um, basically making it easier for your elders to care for your soul um

And robert if i'm not mistaken, i'm pretty sure your church does the same even though you guys are baptist that is part of when when you guys joined that I don't know if you did but I know i've been there other sundays when there were people join the church and They're making they're using the exact same confession.

Dan is using I know that has historically There even though it's a baptist church it has historically used that exact confession

In order to be considered members of the church It's it's fairly common like the opc takes this this same

Thing and I think they squish it down into five vows, but it's all the same A lot of the baptist churches

That i've been to they'll just usually you just meet with the pastor and they'll ask you Basically these things we're not going to have any issues out of you and then let's let's get on with life

Yeah Yeah, I like that. I like that I appreciate those answers and this has helped me a ton um, so i'm praising the lord, um, my next one is um

I put the five souls of the reformation um Faith alone grace alone scripture alone.

Jesus alone to the glory of god alone And that's probably going to fall under doctrinal unity so we probably don't

Really need to spend a lot of time on that um I would consider those foundational

Sure would be a part of that doctrinal unity The only thing i'd encourage all of us to be careful of is is know your audience though, too

Again, that's that's all i'm trying to say is like the group that that that i'm privileged to pastor right now.

Um There's a lot of those people that's been saved five years or less and i've got a large group of people right now that i'm not even sure that That they know what being a christian really is, you know, they they love what they've received and the loving part of the church.

They they friendships and relationships and the discipleship and those kind of things but you know, do they really have they really laid hold of the full counsel of the gospel and Believed and I think they want to but it's just they're just not quite there yet.

So So I just think the terminology and the verbiage that we used to is very important, you know of knowing your audience is very important and so because going to a church plant

Um If I hold up the west minister catechisms and hold this whole book up And a church plant is designed to reach unchurched people

And and I say which you're not saying that dan, thank goodness, but i'm just just use that as an example

If if if I was to say that though and I carry this book and say okay to be a member of this church You have to know and believe all of this

And to read that gives me a headache even now and i've studied it for decades But then there's things like do

I really believe this and it's like, you know, I mean it's like what and and I do believe it don't get me wrong, but There's a lot of depth there is all i'm saying so So I just think knowing your audience with your with your scriptural unity

Yeah, and I think it's one thing for your leadership or core team of a church plant

Or a core group that is revitalizing a church Scripture unity solo scripturist solo christ, you know,

I mean all the way through the solace. Um All those are very important But how that fleshes out into the mission is very important to be understood because if we're not careful we can we can we can we can create a a christian elitist

Mindset because we are so high in our theology and doctrine And understanding of those things that we forget how to have a conversation with a guy that you need to sit on the park bench and He's not ready to talk about the perpetuation for our sin, you know, he's

He don't even know what that word means and don't even care what that word means because he's got another set of problems and so so the thing that I would say too about doctrinal unity is it's not just for the sake of the

The governing of the church if you have good doctrine Then it motivates you to mission and so so doctrine

Motivates the mission if you don't have good doctrine Even though you might have right belief because I I Because right belief is not enough is all i'm trying to say to have what

I consider good doctrine to me Good doctrine means good praxis as well, right? The orthodoxy will create orthopraxy um that will will fit inside the mission of the church and so So I think as long as you're saying doctrinal unity lends lends itself to to unified mission, then

I think you're You're on the right track I think if it's just for the sake of which I know you're not saying that but I think if it's just for the sake

Of and and what i'm trying to say. There's there are people that do that. Oh, yeah Uh that that their only goal is to attract more people like themselves

Yeah, if that's the sake then I would not call them doctrinally sound churches, right, you know, and No matter what.

Yeah, you're right. No matter what their belief is. They're not doctrinally sound, you know, even though they say I believe

So just like the guys that you said a while ago, I wish people would just preach jesus and This and that and the other

Well, if we sit down and talk with them, we actually may believe a lot of the same things but but they are

They are ignorant of the gospel And and and they really don't believe in the power of god in the power of truth, you know

So I have a lot of other strong words in my mind when I think about that So I have to be careful, but I mean really

I mean that's the you know, there's Uh, there's there's there's

I don't mind saying this there. There's a lot of idiots out there that are just guys that that that May be right in denomination or whatever, but they're they're not

They're not unified in foundational doctrine and christ -centeredness and gospel -centeredness and so they

I don't have any use for them. They're clouds without rainwater. So Making shipwreck of people's faith

Yeah, I agree with that i've seen that through my time definitely and What you were saying is kind of what we were talking about earlier where one of one is the result of the other and the other

I mean the results of each other You know the the good doctrine good healthy doctrine robust doctrine results in good missional practice and vice versa

Absolutely, just like the jesus of the head and the gospel is center so Wonderful way how christianity works in a in a healthy way um

I really feel like my number five This isn't any You know in order of importance

Um, just as I as I jot them down my next bullet point, I guess with discipleship of men

I really thought As I was jotting down Good foundations discipleship of men now.

We want to disciple everybody but Discipleship of men

I thought was very important for for many reasons. Um, as dan alluded to earlier, um

Spectra calls them as the head of the household And leading their family leading their wives leading their family spiritually.

Um, they are the ones Bible qualifies as leaders Um in the church um

And so if if the men of the church Are coming together in in being discipled

I could see a beautiful Filtering out a beautiful overflow from that.

What do you guys think? Yeah It seems like a lot of what goes on in in the church today is

Geared towards women. Um You think of the the talks about relationships and and love and Which love isn't a bad thing it's a good thing

But I mean, there's not a lot of talk about how do men love like men You know, how do you show love as a man to another man without it being gay?

um They don't talk about that. I mean should Because there's strong bonds between men all the way throughout scripture and none of it even remotely close to being

Um, you know homosexual or gay or anything like that um There's a

There's almost a lack of of understanding what makes men tick, you know What have we well,

I mean, what is it that we've been given to do to protect to provide? for our family to to build um to Fill the earth to multiply to do all those things um to lead um go to war all those things that that men were built and made to do and yet And you see those themes throughout scripture, but you don't necessarily hear

Taught How do we approach the faith from those perspectives something that's going to resonate with a guy who's supposed to He's supposed to go out there and create to build something, you know, you're going to build a culture.

How do you do that? You were supposed to be a leader in a family, you know, how do you do that you're supposed to provide

Not just financially but spiritually How do you do that? Because I I really think that once we

If we teach men how to be men then the there's a

True biblical godly men then they're going to lead their family as well They're going to be praying for them going to be providing for them going to be bringing them to church

Going to be Doing hard things that they don't necessarily want to do but need to be done in order for to see the spiritual flourishing of other people in the church um, maybe you don't want to get up early, but you just force yourself to get up early because you know

You have to go and pray for your church family or you know that there's a brother who's struggling or there's a family who needs

Something so you're going to get up and sacrifice in order to make sure that that's taken care of um men

Crave that kind of stuff Uh, when they don't get it at the church, they'll go they'll go other places uh the red pill movement, um, you heard of uh,

In some of its most uh toxic forms, you know, like the pickup artist, you know, i'm gonna learn how to uh

Go out and get as many women as I possibly can um, and it can get nasty real quick, especially when god's not at the center because if men who are

Strong and powerful and oftentimes dangerous don't point that in the right direction It can destroy people quick so discipling men is a very very important thing that the church is um

I wouldn't say neglected but definitely hasn't done as well as we could have done Um Yeah, there's always always

There's definitely more that can be done in that that area And the only thing

I would add is that's your that's your development of leadership as well yeah, that's your that's your deacons and your your elders and your future pastors and Your future church planters and your multipliers all those kind of things your missionaries

It doesn't mean women Don't play a mighty role in that. All right but I think that's uh

But but god has called those called men to do to carry that mantle, you know with with the support and love of their wife and so So that's your pool of that as well.

And so I think we fought we fail in multiplication a lot of times Because we've not discipled men and if you can create that dna right in the beginning that that's just a normal Normal thing we do

It's a much bigger topic, but I want to touch it real quick too when it comes to discipleship

We we need to we need I would encourage you anybody that listens to this define what you mean by discipleship

And there should be a target on the wall that you're shooting at and and and you should have

A basis of what defining okay. This is an equipped saint. This is a person that's ready to to develop out so we

I'll make this real quick, but we we use um, we use circles and all

This is big gathering This is missional community

This is d group and then you've got a bullseye And so we we use this methodology right here a lot

That that you've got a circle out here. That's all god's people Then that's that's out there that that's who we're going after is just like god told paul

I have a lot of my people in Corinth, even though they weren't in the fold yet. They were still his people That may be here in the south their own ramp is through big gathering

Then we connect on the missional community and then we connect them to d group and then we say if you actively participate in all of these things of Big gathering missional communities putting your mission and d group is is men meeting with men

You know once a week 7 a .m in the morning. We're walking through scripture together soaping through scripture However, whatever methodology you use but we say if you commit to this in over a three -year period of time

Then you're going to be well on your way to a very targeted point of an equipped saint And so that's that's the in route um

So that's the in route that we use and then we turn around and take that person and And put them then on a trajectory as as they've come on the in route through this

Then we turn around and put them on a trajectory of an out route So now that you've hit this target you're grounded you you've we've walked through doctrine

We've walked through the solos of scripture. We've walked through all those kind of things. You've got to really

You're pretty equipped You're well well aware of what your gift sets are what your passions are and what your zeals are and what god's called you to Do now we begin to send you out.

Okay, maybe now your next stop is You're a d group leader. Now. We want you to take two more men and what you've walked through over the last year

Like we're taking a group of guys right now through the book of nehemiah And so after we get those guys through the book of nehemiah, which is a great leadership

You know book of the bible then now we want you to take a few guys through the book of nehemiah then say

That group right there begins to take off and then their wives get involved and now we're going to move on up and maybe you guys need to just go ahead and become a missional community and Then that missional community is like hey, man, we're we're rocking and rolling now.

We've reached 30 people Have you if you considered about start hosting just a big gathering on sunday morning, maybe

Maybe this is you robert and maybe hey robert. Have you ever considered being a pastor, you know And and then we launch you into a church plant and then you're going after all god's people and then it then the whole thing

Starts over, you know, and it's just a circle Sometimes most of the time people want to start stop somewhere on this pendulum, you know

Not everybody's going to become a pastor, but in the body if real discipleship happens There's a target and then they find where they fit

In the process of the church, you know of where their mission where their ministry is and it's somewhere along that pendulum

So so that's all i'm trying to say. That's our process I would just say Don't leave discipleship just general.

So we're going to have discipleship of men You know you you really gotta you really gotta hone it in of What that looks like because if you ask every church, oh, yeah, we do discipleship

And Well, tell me what you do then Well, we we we have sunday school class and we go through the bible

Okay, great and you know what I mean, so it's not it's not mobilizing people into Because when jesus did discipleship of those disciples by the end of time he got through with them the holy spirit moved on them and Man, they were about the mission of god and all of them had different gift sets all of them were skilled differently

Went different parts of the world did different things died differently, you know wrote differently so it's not that we're just trying to make robots, but But there's an end result to discipleship.

There's a target And an expected result and if that's not the case, then I don't think we can call it discipleship

I'm, really impressed with that idea that you just showed us. Uh, because to me it's narrow enough to where You you've got a trajectory and you can see that trajectory but it's wide enough to to encompass

God working on me individually and god working on you individually and us being totally two different people

And going at things that might be a different pace and we're at different places So it's it's narrow enough, but wide enough

I think I think it was really good yeah, so and i'm not saying it's perfect and And all of that wasn't original with us we've gleaned this from multiple other churches and other things and And then we just kind of created our own systems in the midst of it, you know

So it's there's nothing new under the sun though, you know, that's all i'm saying. So So but dan said if you take models and you you target men uh, then you get a product and so but all i'm saying discipleship has to be more than we're just gathering to We're just gathering for the sake of teaching.

It's that's not bad at times. Don't get me wrong But there should be a target that you're getting at And the rest of the world does the discipleship great.

So if you go to the police academy There's an intention of when you get out of that police academy

You're going to know how to be a police officer And then you're going to hit the streets and be a police officer you know, so i'm sure there are people that go to the police academy that come out or not, but You know

But more than likely you go to the police academy for a purpose of becoming a police officer So we should enter into discipleship relationships with the purpose of raising up devoted followers of jesus

And so having a having a good definition of what a disciple is So our definition of that that we use is a devoted follower of jesus that's learning from the gospel

Loving from the gospel and living out the gospel in community So that's that's our expected end is that you're going to have those principles permeate your life

And then we are discipled all of our lives. I mean you never stop discipleship but there is a point of You know you you graduate and you move into praxis while you still learn, you know, so Well for the sake of time i'm going to combine these last two because I just have two more and there's probably

More that we can add but but we've run pretty long and I really appreciate you guys sticking with us

But here's my last two Um, and and these are two that we will hit on when we look at what a healthy church is

But but I think it's necessary for a church to have biblically qualified elders Um as as their leadership, you might not be there at the beginning um but but I think

To be to be called a church um That's one thing that you have to have is and then the last last one is

A biblical understanding of church discipline from from what people say um or or understand as teaching

Um slash discipleship, which is what we just talked about all the way through to because we're

I mean discipline is You're being disciplined in a discipline you're being you're being taught

Um, you're being taught the word you're being disciplined in that way But all the way through, you know, matthew 18 from going to somebody who who sinned against you um all the way through a biblical understanding of Excommunication and the goal of reconciliation and and what all that means.

Um, To me, I think that's foundational because that's one of the things that you want to have on the onset

So that you're not suffering consequences because your your people don't know anything about it and then you have to address sin later on And and you're kind of lost

Uh, your or your people are lost because you you didn't teach it. They don't understand it and then all of a sudden

Oh, we need to practice church discipline here What do you mean? We're going to discipline people and and so they get this wrong conception of what that means

But if you start out going in the right direction And then help your people understand

I think I think it's a good thing So what are your thoughts on elders and church discipline as more foundation than what they have been before?

Well Um, was it paul left, uh titus will you to appoint elders in in the churches

So they needed to have elders because that's what they're supposed to have Oh, I mean really that goes it goes back all the way to the top.

Um, Where we talk about making sure that god is is first where we love aphron with our of our heart soul and mind if we do that, we're going to Organize his church the way that he's said because he's organizing his church

Um, so you want to organize it with people who are qualified according to his standards? And then you

Um, they need to act as god has called them to act If there's sin in the midst you call people to repentance if they refuse to repent you take somebody with you

You need to repent if they won't Go further if they will not repent after all of that They get put out um

It's a It's a hard thing It's something that takes discernment

Um, you know, when is somebody just being ignorant and when are they being rebellious?

So it takes they go hand in hand having biblically qualified elders who know what they're doing know how to have grace in certain situations and know when to be a little bit tougher when they when they need to be, um, who can maybe even do

Those things separately or uh Each of those things be tough or or gentle to the same person in different situations um the whole goal

Is to glorify christ with it though Um, he's called the people to himself expects his church to be a certain way.

And so he's You call people to repentance you call people to the gospel Uh people who don't do that um are not

Properly called part of his church Um, that's just as far as i've gone just putting those two together for a foundational sense um, if you go

If you don't have those things in place If you don't have the way the structure the foundation the basics in place

Then you you set yourself up to get into some real bad sticky situations um, if people if your elders don't have a backbone

You end up with stuff that happened in first corinthians where somebody was sleeping with his mother -in -law like Why like that has no place in the church?

and We could do that if we put unqualified people we see that all the time in some of these

Denominations that want to call stuff that's sin not sin so that That's really why god's given us

These instructions to set ourselves up from the get -go so we don't get ourselves into a bind because we are sinful people

We do need to look to christ for forgiveness But if we don't want to call sin sin We're going to get ourselves into a bind so Yeah, the foundational stuff is foundational because if not you are building

Wood hay and stubble and it's just going to burn up It's doomed for failure That's right.

Amen I would I would sum up those two things robert is shepherding um

Is how I would sum them up for elders and discipline um it's it's just it's just authentic shepherding has to be a very foundational part of the congregation because Good elders are shepherds of the sheep

And good elders drive out wolves and it's pretty pretty simple, you know, and and I can say in in my life as a young when

I I started preaching when I was 19 and and you know went through all kinds of ups and downs and ins and outs and um

You know in the very first church I pastored um as a lead pastor Had a really weird setup of of I guess you could say elders and wouldn't call themselves elders but but they had all the authority of elders and all those kind of things and But but I had the authority of an elder and I didn't use it

Because I was so afraid of disunity and I kept thinking I got to hold it together hold it together but Long and short that didn't go so well and from that the lord

Taught me what a shepherd really is and it's it's what we're talking about. So It's an elder. It's a leader.

It's a shepherding of the flock And it is driving out wolves and uh wolves and sheep's clothing and uh, sometimes that can be a little sticky and a little

Hard to discern like Dan said it takes a lot of discernment. There's Enemies crafty and and then then we don't want to just because somebody disagrees with us automatically label them a wolf you know, they you can't do that either, you know, so it's

So it's not always easy. And then that's why I do believe personally As quickly as a church can have qualified people.

They should be there should be a plurality of elders I personally have a great conviction of the plurality of elders

But a lot of times in the church plant or church revitalization There's not There there's not that that uh availability, you know, and so so For elders too, then it should be going back to men's discipleship

You know, there should be elders in training. There should be a development system um and And a pipeline for leadership and those kind of things so So to me, it's all shepherding tending the flock driving out wolves and that's

It's very two key key factors Well, I know this was a long episode but I truly believe that this conversation could be helpful for so many people you guys gave such great biblical insights that I I really think a lot of people need to hear and would benefit from so i'm i'm thankful and I pray that god will use it for his glory and um, if one of the main reasons just to wrap things up one of the main reasons why

Um, someone may not be able to worship as as I did as the lord allowed me to as jonathan was talking about um our our foundational doctrines of scripture and of of jesus is because One is not saved one.

Jesus is not their their lord and their savior and their king They've not submitted to him.

Um, we've got to be born again to to be able to worship at all and one of one of the foundational doctrines that we didn't mention

I don't think was the Sinfulness of man the depravity of man, which we've talked about on a different episode

But but we are totally helpless because of our sin We've sinned against the holy god and we need to be rescued because we can't save ourselves

And that's what jesus did god sent his one and only son That everyone believing in him

Would not perish but have everlasting life Um, and and we need to realize our sinning against the holy god

And we've broken his commandments from one end to the other and we need to be rescued and jesus is that rescuer?

And he will save you today. So we we would Call out to you to repent of your sin and believe on the lord.

Jesus christ And just surrender to him As your savior your lord and your king and with that being said, um, jonathan, would you close us in prayer?

Yeah, I want to Father, thank you so much for a night to talk about your business your church

We know that this is the means and one of the primary means in the world That you have created and instituted to bring glory into your name and to carry your message of good news throughout the entire world

Thank you for this good news that robert just shared with us that there is a way to salvation you had every right

To leave us in our sin and turn your back upon us, but you did not for you Came as a man and became the way the truth and the life

Thank you. Jesus that we have that pathway We We trust you and I pray anyone that is

Listening to this tonight that has not put their faith there Tonight would call upon you and be saved

So father do at work. We pray draw us all closer in We pray god that you would bring revitalization to your church

Where we need repentance grant us repentance where we need Doctrinal unity grant doctrinal unity when

I pray unite our hearts and unite our minds We need deeper discipleship or better eldership, whatever the church means lord, you know and you see and father

I pray That you would move mightily and that men of god would surrender our lives to you

That we would be the church that you've called us to be and be obedient in all that you've called us to do

So we're trusting you in this we pray for all of our local churches that are represented in this group tonight or for anybody that watches and Literally lord,

I pray for the church across the entire world for tonight. We know that there's many of the church that are suffering

And there's many that would appear very much to be asleep So awaken those that may be appearing to be asleep

Bless them and strengthen them that are under persecution and suffering Strengthen all that would stand and preach in your pulpits this coming weekend father.

I pray For those of us preparing sermons god that your anointing would be upon our lives That clarity would be there that we can preach with authority

Lord jesus bring revitalization to your church And plant more local churches we pray

Multiply throughout the whole world that your light through your church would shine so bright

That they will see our good works and as a result, they'll glorify you in heaven So we thank you for this time tonight in jesus name.

We pray. Amen Amen, thank you for watching and always remember that jesus is king go live in the victory of christ