LABORERS PODCAST- ABORTION

Hello and welcome back to the laborers podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight is going to be a heavy conversation about Abortion, we hope you will be edified and felt called to action stick with us

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Thank you again for joining the laborers podcast. We really appreciate it. We've got big John with us

Tyler No, we bread of the word podcast real talk with big John and the happy Calvinist Claude Ramsey Here I stand theology podcast

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Network So we we appreciate Tony Thomas and we appreciate all the other ones as well So let's let's jump into our topic tonight.

It's a heavy one It's a hot one and it can be a heated one, but we want to have an edifying conversation

That's glorifying to God and hopefully it will be helpful and it may turn into at least a part two

We don't know. We'll see how it goes. I Want to start out with this verse and then we'll start with our questions points of interest

John 10 12 through 14 our topic tonight is is abortion We've been having this conversation for a long time for too long now

But the passage that I'm going to read is John 10 12 through 14 but a hireling

He who is not the shepherd one who does not own the sheep sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and fleas and the wolf catches the sheep and Scatters them boy someone that doesn't protect the sheep protect the innocent

That is that is not someone to follow and and we are

We are looking for Men, and I'll say this We want our legislators

To be this we want our pastors. We we should be expecting our pastors to be this

But if you're not a legislator, if you're not a pastor It's okay

You can join this fight too, you can join this conversation you can join the

There is a place for you in this conversation. So that leads me to my first question to you guys and And this is something that hopefully most people have settled in in the heart

A long time ago, especially if you have some age on you There's so many commercials out there asking for money to save Pets who who have been abandoned the hungry and other countries

People are and if you're a pastor if you spend any time at a church You've had at least one person come to the church and and ask for help there there are people who are asking for help all the time not just from pastors or churches, but from you as individuals and And we've learned and I've learned that You just can't say yes

Everything you can't say yes all the time but I think there's a conviction at least among us and many others that This issue is one that Every person should be saying yes to so in your opinion guys

This issue of abortion that we face right now What elevates it?

above all these others to where We can consistently as Christians say yes, we all need to be involved in some way in this issue

Okay, a consistent theme throughout Scripture Old Testament and New Testament I think is is captured in Proverbs 6 16 or six things the

Lord's hate seven are detestable to him. All the eyes a lion tongue hands that shed innocent blood a

Heart that devises wicked schemes and feet that are quick to rush into evil I mean a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community this

It doesn't take Very long in the Old Testament to see where God desires justice right

God desires There to be mercy, but he desires justice at the same time

God is holy and must and Must require justice and then you see

Jesus the exact expression of God's image in the New Testament mirror the exact same the exact same sentiments in 17 of Luke here, you know hear me still

He said to his disciples Offenses will certainly come but woe to the one that they come through It would be better if a millstone

Were hung around their neck and thrown into the sea and for him to cause one of these little ones to stumble and and we're talking about teaching and and in that but this mind of of Christ pushing for People who can't stand up for themselves.

I mean he goes he goes before the Pharisees who are doing things that are Unjust he calls them out.

He makes a big stink out of it. He is obviously the good shepherd in the standard and It's a consistent theme

We take care. We take care of those who can't take care of themselves We're just orphans among those that there in the womb.

These are to be treated as As we can and Helpless and we're to we're to give ourselves for their protection

And I'd say to Rob to add just to jump right right on with John there to and to pick up on what you were saying what what elevates this issue of abortion to a level that all

Christians Particularly should be involved in you mentioned PETA Right, so that's which that's people eating tasty animals, right?

Yeah Don't call common what

God is clear don't call unclean what God is cleansed rise kill and eat.

Yeah So but the the difference really in that too,

I mean because I can just hear right What's her name Sarah McLaughlin or something like that, you know tears of an angel

I think that's a song that plays during the PETA commercial Yeah you know and everybody gets tore up or tore up over it and they

Save the whales and all these other things in the thing the difference the chief difference

Biblically speaking is the fact of this that human beings have a soul.

Yep Animals do not have a soul Okay, so Christ came to propitiate for the sins of The world the scripture says right?

That's what it says in 1st John So and that is for the souls of men.

This is what sets abortion above all or not above but you know should be raised should be raised to a priority in the life of the

Christian because what's at stake is are the souls of human beings

Tell you anything on that one Honestly, yeah, honestly we can just take this right back to Genesis 127 so God created man in his own image

He created him in the image of God He created the male and female that at the end of the day the

I think one of the most basic Principles in The subject of abortion as Matt breeding says it's literally an issue of life and death that we are talking about Value, we're talking about what it means to be or not to not be human

Where that starts at what point there's responsibility and accountability. What exactly is

Man, what is man as it says in Psalm 8 that you are mindful of him. Mm -hmm And the reality is not only is it a discussion of what man is

But it also draws us to who God is because we are made in his image. That's where that starts

In some form or fashion paints how we feel God in one way or another

That those two facts are together. I think yeah, what is man? What is

God and how does that relate to the outworking of certain social aspects?

So does this passage not speak to that exactly that you're talking about Tyler? Yeah, he chose us in him when

Before the foundation of the world. Yeah So let's look at something you started in John 10.

I love that I love the whole book of John right just because I'm named after him. So a

Thief comes to steal only to steal kill and destroy And I've come that you may have life and have it in abundance now there's

Obviously, there's a great deal more to the context of that But let's take a look just for a second at this contrasting statement the enemy only comes to kill steal and to destroy and Christ comes to bring life

Right the salvation and no other than Christ there's eternal life and no other than Christ.

So Just paint with a very broad brush Those that follow after Satan are the ones that are quick to kill steal and destroy

And if we're to be Christians if we're to bear the name of Christ Then if for no other reason

Then because as a representative a representative of him and the we're image bearers of God We are to be people who support life period period

Because it's valuable and it's valuable because we represent or we are the image bearers of the most valuable of the most valuable which is

God so if And This Is something that historically the church has always been good at right?

Historically, it was the blood -bought bride of Christ that sought to see The abolitionists free the slaves that were the ones that stood on the front lines like Detrick Bonhoeffer in Germany Who's stood for the

Jews who are going in concentration camps and wind up going into concentration camps with them? Yeah, this is this is normal in the church whenever you see an injustice you stand against it and You do so in a way that doesn't condemn the church in the eyes of the world, but rather Shows massive gap between what

God calls holy and what man ultimately is I Like what you said there

John and I appreciate that so much that the The mindset of standing up for injustice is

Normal for the Christian. Yeah. Yes. That's an amazing statement right there And and at least it leads us right to our next topic and and and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to Claim, I know the motivation of every single person

This has been my observation of what I see and what it what it looks like to me

So and and I don't know about all the different practices. We come from different states different locations

So I don't know all of the practices that happen in your locations but in in our area we have

Pregnancy care centers and to me, it seems like the the the mindset of leadership and congregation is

That's what that person is called to that's their ministry It's not my ministry when they need support, which

They will send out baby bottles and they want you to fill the baby bottles with Coins to raise money for that ministry that organization

I've done my duty to fill my bottle and I give it back because that's their ministry and I don't need to get involved because I'm not called to that and And we need to we need to shake that mindset if if that truly is the mindset of folks and Go to the direction that John is leading us where he says standing up for injustice is the normal behavior of a

Christian And I don't think people are aware of all the different nuances and all the different things that are going on out there so I want to take a moment to investigate

What is truly going on out there with these different Terms that we use.

Mm -hmm. So here's some different terms and you guys helped me define

Their nuances and what they mean So we've got the pro -life mindset of you know, your average

Christian You got your pro -life industry and you've got the pro -life movement and Now which has become popular

You've got abolitionist and you've got different forms of abolitionism So let's start with the first one the the average

Christian pro -life mindset. What would you what would you think that is? I Think the general

Understanding and I'm Gonna try to say this carefully,

I Think the general understanding of pro the term pro -life is

Very much a an Uninformed, let me

I'll use that term. It's an uninformed Idea of what pro -life means pro -life

Just to kind of lighten things here my wife won't mind me telling this I like to tell this story on or we were

We were driving down the road It's been a few years ago, but there was a sign on the side of the road, you know, it was an advertisement and it said pro rodeo right on this date like March 13th, whatever and we passed the sign and April looks over to me and says why would anybody be against the rodeo?

And So Yeah, I said no that's that's just being professional rodeo

That's what's happening, right? It's not that they're for the rodeo but in the idea of being pro or for life is a

Christian mindset, right? It's a human mindset because the fact of the matter is nobody wants to die.

Nobody Generally speaking right wants to kill other people.

So the the uninformed view of pro -life is Sure, we don't want babies to be killed or To be the language that's using some some folks.

It's gets real shady. We don't want life to be We don't want their life to end or we don't want we don't want to see this or we don't want to see that But the term pro -life again in an uninformed view.

It's just a simple view that says We're for life. We're for babies living

And if you bring up the term abolition, which When you're first reintroduced to that term, of course, you're you're thinking of something else you're thinking of years ago

But it's been reintroduced into our society now being For abolishing abortion

But for the like you're talking about the average Pro -life Christian who's probably uninformed on the issue

Will generally say and I've had this experience Yes, I'm an

I would say that I'm an abolitionist because I want to abolish abortion But because of the being uninformed about all the nuances and what's really going on behind the scenes

Once you begin to define what Being an abolitionist entails.

Yeah, they start pumping the brakes. Yep And I your example there

I think is really going to help us go into the the next term But does anybody else have any anything else about the the pro -life average pro -life mindset of the

Christian? I Mean I for the longest time

I didn't know what and still and kind of Uninformed as to what all abolitionists are.

I understand as of today that there's more than one time. So The the thing that I'm afraid is the is the most common view on it is

Is more wrapped up in a political worldview than it is a spiritual worldview they're using the terminology of the conservative

Politician to describe their their choices in it and it seems to be a Lack or excuse me, they continually look at their options as the lesser of two evils instead of just what's right and what's wrong it's kind of like Everybody that's voted

Some point or another has been faced with an option of well, I just really don't like this guy

I really don't like this guy either But I like this guy more than I like that guy

So it's kind of a slide and scale and it becomes an acceptable vote right instead of just voting with your conscience you vote in the way that you think hurts the other person the most and I'm afraid that sometimes we think about life in this way that we're going to associate with a group so that we can oppose another group as opposed to just saying this is

This is all together wrong, why would I accept any amount of it, right?

motive Heart. Yeah. Yeah, I think that brother Rob's probably gonna explain abolitionist of more in a minute

Which is going to explain what I mean, I think what I'm saying by when I say Well the pro -life will accept

The same argument as the pro -abortion crowd as the pro -murder crowd up to a certain point

Because it's better than the alternative. Well, I I mean, that's like rooting around in a

Chicken pen looking for seed, you know, there's sure you might find one picked over but you know where you got it from, right?

I mean anyway Take away brother well

Let's let's go to that next next mindset so we talked about the pro -life mindset the average

Christian and there's something out there called the pro -life industry and Because Because we're uninformed and we don't have a desire a lot of times to become informed become educated because it's somebody else's ministry

It's my Elsa's job. I'm not called to that If if somebody puts the tag the tagline there pro -life if they're a pro -life organization pro -life ministry if they're a

Candidate that is they claim to be pro -life or they are supported by a pro -life organization

I'm on board full support because they say pro -life they use that language

But there is a pro -life industry out there and so can you guys speak to the pro -life industry aspect of this pro -life

Discussion that we're having. I think that comes down to the matter of Delegation That in a lot of ways it is delegating that responsibility to others whether that's with time or money or Advertisement whatever you want to call it on that is now we've talked a little bit about this and another aspect with like like revivalism with like the

Billy Graham age when Evangelism became I bring my lost friend to church and super pastor will get him saved.

Oh, that's good. And and in some ways I Think there are some parallels to I guess what you would call the pro -life industry is when we had all these superstars that have basically got a career fighting abortion and That how the church

Fights abortion is we give them $10 ,000 a year or something like that that we pay these people to go fight abortion for us

And and so you've seen the the pro -life movement in some ways has become a bit of a business and we can debate the nuances of that a little bit, but the notion with a pro -life industry is that there are

Organizations that bring in a significant amount of money to fight abortion for the church or for the conservative people in general

And They bring they bring money to the table. Not only does it fund and you know,

I can't speak for every organization and ministry, but it brings money to their

For lack of a better term paycheck their pockets, but also it brings money to Candidates and they give money to candidates.

And so it's a scratch my back. I'll scratch yours Industry So For for me and some others who a little bit unfamiliar with some of the terminology that you're using here the insinuation

I gather is that They actually are

Counting on this Fight to never be over so that they can always have a job.

Is that where you're getting to you got it? Here's the hammer, okay

Yeah, okay I can see I can see that because you know

That's it's issues like if and that goes more to a political argument then than it does to a spiritual argument, right?

Because I know some of the folks in our local

Pregnancy center and the word they told me was they want to be out of a job They're look forward to the day whenever they don't have a job no more

I'll do something else and Which are they all well, I think most of them volunteer anyway, but my my thought process would be

If you're gonna build an industry, so it's kind of like I guess social security issue

Right, they're never gonna fix the social security issue because they're gonna always want to run on it every election, right?

They're never gonna reform immigration or or welfare any of those other things that take care of them because they if they do that Then they've lost their their running objective.

There's any case well, and from my experience one conversations that I had with pregnancy

Care was was kind of different they felt like if we pursue this then

There would be no need for them anymore and my answer to that was You will be overbooked

Because you'll have more babies You're not gonna lose your job And and let me speak to one of the things you say because we were talking about you hitting the nail on the head

Yes, that's what that's what we're seeing in in many pro -life organization and ministry.

That's what we're seeing today However, I do want to make this caveat Just like with the church

God Created his church. He ordained it. He grows it.

It's his church. It's a good and glorious thing Amen, but There are so -called churches out there and so -called pastors out there and they write books

There's nothing wrong with a pastor writing a book But they will have their church

Buy as many books as necessary so that their pastor can become a

New York's best number one bestsellers list. Yeah Platforma, that's right.

So they're not truly on that New York's Bestseller list their church just bought enough books to put them on that list platform.

That's crooked that that's crooked Exactly so So having a pro -life

Ministry organization abolitionist ministry organization is not bad We're just calling out the bad

That we see that people have made So I wanted to make that caveat

When we talk about the pro -life industry if you are seeking to glorify God and end abortion

We are on your side. Got you That's heavy

I mean because that's uh Well, that's detestable and wicked to the highest degree because Not only are you actually supporting

What you claim to be fighting makes you a liar, too Very deceptive.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jesus had a term for that Hypocrites. Yes, sir. Paul twofold son of hail.

Yep Yeah, and and that kind of that conversation where we've gone right now leads us into that that next term that we brought up earlier the pro -life movement and so There has been a pro -life movement

For a long time ever since Roe v. Wade started in which glory to God He ended it, you know nationally but 50 years

Abortion was illegal or legal nationally. Yeah, just to put that in perspective

My generation has never known a time where abortion was not culturally acceptable mine neither

There has also been this pro -life movement since and We have not ended abortion

Yeah, and Tyler I Appreciate what Tyler just said there. There's never been a time in his generation that abortion has not been acceptable.

That's the issue Yeah, it's unacceptable As long as it fits in this this in this category

But that's the that's the thing with the pro -life movement. They're making these caveats these little nooks and crannies to say

Abortion is not right Unless This takes place

That's died the death of a thousand qualifications. Yep. Yeah, I've never understood

Yeah, I mean I understand why I see I see it what you're talking about in this abortion or this

Pro -life industry because I've never understood why somebody would make a big deal about passing a law

And then when you read it, there's a thousand pages to circumvent the very law that they just supposedly passed you know

The biggest argument I heard about Roe v. Wade being overturned From the conservatives made me sick when it said we kicked back down to the states where it ought to been all alone.

I thought What do you mean? That just a smaller localized government gets to decide whose baby lives whose baby dies

What why is it? Why has it ever been a on an option on the table? And that yeah to me is

Before we get off of here, I want to explain something that my wife and I went through for anybody who's pregnant and And I don't want to I don't want to give that order

So but I'll forget if I don't say something for y 'all to remind me when the time comes Matt reading help us remember

We need we need here Big John story In April's analogy or April story that you gave

I meant to say this to helps make a distinction between those those two mindsets the pro -life mindset of the average

Christian and the pro -life industry The it's good to have a pro -life mindset.

We are pro we are for life But then when you when you're moving into the bad side is what is what we're talking about You move over to the the pro -life industry, then you're moving over into what

April was talking about the professional Yeah And so that I mean that was a perfect example that that you brought forth there

It's it's become professional. It's become Hirelings monetize monetize.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah You you lose your job you lose your money and we can't do that Yeah, it's a perpetuation of evil.

Yeah, that's what it is. It's kind of like the insurance company They make you pay absorbent process to go to the doctor because the doctor has a charge of absorbent process to pay for his malpractice

Insurance, so you take out health care insurance So you can pay to go to the doctor so the doctor can afford to charge you what he charges you because he has to Cover his malpractice insurance.

It's just a cycle of death and destruction Actually When you just did that I don't know if y 'all have ever heard

The I came here what movie it was Tom Arnold, you know, you do y 'all know who Tom Arnold is

I'm my own grandpa Would you believe me if I told you

I once heard that song in church No way We started a sermon on Father's Day About awkward families starting with that song and went into David and his kids and that everything after Bathsheba I was in the second row.

It was weird cuz I was sitting next to the guy's son Yeah, but back to the top of your hand so the the last

Term that we want to help define which there's guys out there They're way smarter than I am that could do a better job but we want to help

Lord willing do the best we can to inform people about this this new or this rising idea of abolitionism

Where it's getting a rebirth where we're mostly familiar with Abolitionists fighting against slavery praise the

Lord But it's it's rising again Because the pro -life movement has not done its job.

And so the abolitionists are rising again and saying we need to abolish abortion now from my perspective

You you've got your there's different nuances, I think between abolitionists, but most of them kind of lean towards the same direction

Sometimes I think you have your KJV only abolitionists who are very intense

Toward anybody who does not follow their particular strict guidelines

And then there's some who are a little bit easier to get along with NLT Yeah, well,

I wouldn't go that far. I Define it and help you understand more where the abolitionist

Stance is right now, but basically an abolitionist is one who wants to abolish abortion and It may be a good time to point out

One of the things that they have in common that they the different groups the different movements in different states

That they're sharing with one another they may say it differently But they usually talk about five different components five different tenets of of abolitionism of an abolitionist feel

He here are the looks like I have six right here But if you're gonna have a bill if you're gonna have an abolitionist mindset, the first one is no exceptions

Right. I mean and you hear that about all these new Pro -life bills that are that are coming forth, especially in my state.

Here's this new pro -life bill We're lowering the age Except for these exceptions.

Yeah, and the abolitionist says no exceptions That trust me there's answers to your questions

There's answers for these questions that come up. What about this?

What about this? There are answers just like there's no contradictions in Scripture and you can say what about this verse in this verse there are answers

Yeah answers for these as well. But the second one that they have here and I'm looking at Free the states if you're interested go to free the states org

And I think they're currently in the process of changing their name to abolitionist rising abolitionist rising calm calm no compromise

Yeah, I think within no compromise there's also the idea of no

What's it called called? The where you stagger. Oh My goodness, it's on the tip of my tongue

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm stagger I'll think of it a second.

Tell me about exceptions Not exceptions, but you incrementalism incrementalism you don't try to Thank you,

Matt. Yeah, Matt got us Matt helped us out. You don't try to Work toward this ending of abortion in increments.

Yeah Yeah, it's either right. It's wrong. It's life or death like Matt was talking about a matter of life or death

So when he when we say no compromise, we mean no increments It's When we submit to Christ and he says you don't go there

Matt. Yeah, you shall not murder That's it. Yeah it when we think about that to the the the idea of incrementalism is which is what the pro -life industry in the pro -life movement themselves promote is incrementalism

Thinking of it considering it just in a black and white and here's the thing to that the pro -life

Industry doesn't want to see things black and white They want to see shades of gray here and there so on and so forth

But in the Matt concerning the matter of sin like when we preach the gospel, which is what?

Which is what the Christians responsibility is to do really that's what our job is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ because salvation is found in no other but in the name of Jesus Christ and what what for lack of a better term what better sin to have forgiveness of than the sin of And I'm gonna say it murder.

That's what abortion is abortion is murder All right. So when we go and we proclaim like if you are active in Which Christian should be active in standing against abortion?

Our responsibility is to go and preach the gospel when you're outside at the abortion meals and we we are there

We're not hollering obscenities at the doctors and the death squirts that are there

We're simply preaching the gospel Calling them to repentance now just like it is for us when the gospel was preached to us

We all of us profess to be saved men right in the gospel call to us was

Repent incrementally of your sin Right let off the gas on your sin and just coast in To the shore of salvation.

No, the call to repentance is a is a stop It's a halting and it's a turning it's a change of mind and that change of mind

Of course happens by the work of the Holy Spirit, but it's a complete halting When when it comes to the sin of abortion the sin of murder our our

Call is not to stop incrementally not to ease up off the gas, but to stop

Quit murdering these children That's a great way to understand it and that helps a lot and I appreciate that we

We don't call murderers their serial killing Yeah, yeah, we get them off the street and put them behind bars

What whatever else is decided for them? Yeah the other fact of the matter is the only the only industry or the only people that promote an

Incremental stopping of something or the people who are selling you the medicine to make you stop it You know the cigarette companies make the nicotine patches that people use

To stop smoking cigarettes. They get you coming and get you going, right? You don't they don't want you to really stop sending them money.

It's their new business of making money. So they figure out a way You don't stop cold turkey was it was the old statement?

I guess it's still a statement I don't know but you know, they say don't quit cold turkey. You take take the edge off with Yeah, whatever yeah with the patch, you know and the fact of the matter is is that whenever We ask people to repent we don't say slow down stealing and ease up on the pornography ease up on the line

We just say quit Yeah, die to self and live in Christ. So let me ask a question and possibly bring eschatology into this

Right, I'd rather bring it Rob your post mill so So you would say that's whether we're here ten years or another two thousand years that Things are going to gradually get better in the long run, right?

As an army, I think just continue but go ahead well, I'm kind of leaning a male myself these days, but from that post mill perspective

From that post mill perspective. How do you marry that with? Instant overturn abolition.

Do you see a tension there? Okay So So here's the thing

Repentance and Faith Themselves our gift of God, right? Right.

We preach the gospel. The results are up to God The results are up to God and the idea the understanding that because we're still living and breathing and because these issues still occur and We as Christians hold to the truth that the gospel is the only hope for sinners period old and young the gospels the only hope so we don't even have to have we shouldn't need a

Particular eschatological position to come to that conclusion because the Bible is clear on that That we simply continue to proclaim the gospel to these people as long as as long as their sin in the world there is a overwhelming need for the gospel

Despite what eschatological? Side that a person lands on the reason

I asked is not necessarily. I'm trying to poke anybody in the eye or anything honestly,

I'm I'm Specific illustration

Tyler I'm just thinking through this myself with the the on the the no exceptions incremental side of abolitionism

That's um, I guess I'm open to ground gained is ground gained Mm -hmm.

That makes sense. So I guess I'm somewhere on the side of a little more balance between the two

I think the a lot of the incremental ism we've seen has not been fruitful in the long run but I'm also open to incrementally abolishing abortion if that makes sense,

I Understand I think I understand completely. Sorry Rob.

I'll be quiet here in just a minute. I Completely I Am jiving with you on that as to use an old term, right?

I'm vibing. I'm jiving what whatever you want to do Yeah, I'm hearing I'm hearing what you're saying and I understand exactly what you're saying

And that is a very balanced very very balanced approach we in an

Individual when when Christians as a whole and as individuals have a biblical foundation for that understanding

That the issues come when we when we go to incremental ism and we start hearing these you know that the caveats right to Exceptions the exceptions to the rule so to speak as they say like for example

Rape yeah, Rob. I'm sorry. I just said that you'll will probably get kicked off YouTube, but I'm but for example, right an

Unbiblical understanding of that caveat might say yes, that is a good exception

A woman shouldn't have to live her entire life Being reminded of the fact that she was raped

Until You understand what the scriptures teach

Yeah that life right that were made in the image of God and that it's completely

Unjust that's right to murder the child in the womb for the sins of the rapist

That's where we go ahead what you're doing. And and is

You're using both both scripture and logic as well as being lit of the

Holy Spirit to Distinguish what is right? what is wrong and and the the battle that begets all this is a

Misunderstanding of right and wrong and you get into this relativism where? Okay, I'm not

I'm not dissimilar than you Tyler and that I would always be open to gaining ground and every step being more and more and more until Abortion is abolished entirely, but you got to be like a check valve.

You know what a check valve is They work. Okay, so a valve a check valve works only one way

There's a there's a flap in there so water can pass freely without any obstruction this way

But the moment that water tries to come back There's a there's a via a plate that checks it and stops it from flowing back

Well, this is what's bought a ball here. They used to call foot valves on whales, right? So so long as you're incrementally getting better without any exception the other way

Right, so you don't don't tell me we can we can't murder a baby older than 12 weeks

Unless the mother's been raped in which case we'll go back into you know, whatever it was prior to that No, it's this and the next time we vote

Maybe it'll be completely gone away with but if they say no six weeks well, then okay We'll take six weeks no exceptions the next time we vote.

We'll go six more weeks. We'll go to all the way Abolished and eventually maybe somebody will go to jail for even loud in the first place.

But in any case I Cuz I don't know that I guess what's leading this on is

I'm in Greenville. So we have one of the only murder mills in the state of South Carolina like on our doorstep and We have quite a few of the abolitionist camp around here

They can be very hard -nosed sometimes About abolition and from what

I've seen from a lot of them They won't take gains if it's not we end abortion today. They don't want it see,

I think I Mean I understand the sentiment there. I'm not disagreeing with sure abolishing abortion

But if we've got a culture that has been told for 50 years All this bad information all this bad science all this bad

Reasoning on it and I stand on a street corner and say you need to be publicly executed Yeah That's where I'm coming from.

Sure. Yeah There's a there's a level of It a level of ingratitude

We have to be thankful for the small victories as well as the large victories

But we have to be we have to be thankful for the victories the battles That are won along the way in the war, which is the big picture, right?

We should be thankful for those. I see what you're saying Tyler. Yeah, just to pray some clarity that where I am

Let me try to bring all that together if my mom will work for me so I'm gonna try to bring it all together and I think there

I think there can be a A balanced abolitionist and some of the folks that the

Kate when I compared it to KJV only just abolitionists That's the folks that I was talking about Tyler and I and I've run into those folks as well

That are really really tough on you But let's start with your first question about post -millennialism and how does how does it jive with?

Incrementalism versus Hard -nosed, this is where you know, this is our only stance. Um Ours our battle is not with swords anymore.

It's it's a spiritual battle It's with the gospel. And so just like Claude was saying with the gospel

We we preach the gospel. We don't compromise on repentance and faith.

We don't compromise on the gospel We don't change the gospel. We we preach it unadulterated pure and and we leave

Results up to God and I think the same thing is true with the abolitionist movement

The pro -life whatever you want to call it. That's our approach. We have our stance.

We have our calling I'm responsible before God on my stance. That's right.

Yeah, and what I should hold people that are in authority The which standard

I hold them to sure what I expect from them Now whether they behave that way whether I get the results that I'm asking for is not under my control

Amen. Yeah, so but I know that what I'm held accountable to God, too and so that's that's how

I would can still maintain a Post meal perspective and be an abolitionist non incrementalist because I believe in the promises of God The gates of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God his kingdom will endure forever

He's king of kings and Lord of lords. He's reigning and ruling and he is and it's gonna be that way forevermore

Amen, and so that's how I can maintain that perspective

The the balanced abolitionist Approach, I think

I think you can be a balanced abolitionist in in this way and talking about being hard -nosed or being too weak so if I'm going to be an

Abolitionist who takes this no compromise. No incrementalist stand and I'm I'm going to approach somebody like you

Tyler who says I'm okay with in a criminalism. I'm okay with get ground gained.

I'm okay with that and But I differ I don't want to fight against the murder of babies and yet murder you in my heart because of your stance

I Think that's how I can be a balanced abolitionist. I May not agree with you.

I may think you're way off But I don't need to murder you in my heart and do the exact same thing that I'm calling other people not to do

Yeah, so I need to work with you Just like we're doing on this podcast working with people working with each other iron sharpening iron

To get down to the truth of God's Word together. Yeah, and just to read a comment we got on rumble from chugs 145 purple well chugs is back

Well, the act is an abomination. I need to know how to share the word in love with those that need it

Many have been deceived and are convinced that Christians hate them as much as the act

That's right. I think that comes back to what we're talking about with balance Yeah, that's exactly what

Rob said. I wanted to share one more thing with you John I'll let you take over from there, but I wanted to share with you guys

I was had the privilege of teaching last night and one of the passages that I that I looked at was trying to show the consistency of of how

God works in The individual in his church in his kingdom and you have what

Christ has has done When he came to this earth what he has done he he lived his life his sinless life he he

He died. He was buried. He was raised from the dead. He ascended into heaven. He sits on the the right hand of the father

That's what he accomplished. He accomplished salvation for those who believe in him.

We can be justified It is accomplished Then there's

The aspect of what he has done That needs to be applied where you have

I think it's Philippians work out your own salvation. So you have salvation redemption Accomplished and then you have it applied and worked out you have justification and then you have sanctification

And and one of the verses that I used last night It's one of those

You for at first glance you may think it's a an apparent contradiction But it's so glorious when you

Understand this is just how God works in his economy in in Hebrews chapter 4 verses 10

It says for the one who has entered his rest Entered it past tense.

You've already done it entered his rest as Himself also rested from his works as God did from his so this is something that has already been accomplished the very next verse

Verse 11 therefore, let us be diligent to enter that rest

So there you have accomplished and then applied the very same way

God continuously Works in his individuals individual believers his church in his kingdom where you have

Redemption accomplished and redemption applied we have entered into that rest But we still want to be diligent to enter that rest

Work it out So I want to one of the things that has been

Asked of me is Because I made a statement one time about how I believe that if if a man can justly go to go to jail

For killing a woman who's pregnant and he can go to jail for killing two people at the same time

Then how is it that we cannot hold doctors who do the same thing accountable, right? And and the women who do it or the fellows who take them to the doctor and all the other

Things and he he was a Christian. He is a Christian and he says something to the effect of Well, if you go back and you arrest everybody then you're gonna have like almost half the population in prison, right

And I said, well, maybe you would I don't I don't know I don't know the answer to that and I don't know how you rightly apply it in terms of Those that have

Sought forgiveness from the Lord I mean ultimately we use scripture as our guide and how we live our life and how we and how we

Vote and how we run our family every area of my life is governed by God's Word as best as I know how to apply

To use your own words, right? So in that regard to those who have asked

God to forgive them. I Or whether they've killed their own child or whether they've been a doctor and murdered who knows how many children that God is still able to redeem and save by his grace and those people it

I just imagine that is as destroyed as I have become in my life over the sin that God has forgiven me up as As Regretful as I feel for the things that I can't go back and fix

By God's grace. I never took part in any of these things and I imagine there's a measure of shame that they'll carry forever.

Even if they're safe, right and So what is the answer of the abolitionist?

to those who have already Conducted these acts, how do you how do they view?

What happens to them next and Does their relationship with God in any way play a part in?

Their acts because if we're going to say that the law of the land is to be followed The state has made it clear.

They don't want to use scripture to govern themselves, right? They don't want to use scripture to govern How they write laws or how they carry out laws and a lot of places have taken the

Ten Commandments down from courthouses and the like so What does the abolitionist say to that for those watching and for me who don't know all of it?

Anyway, let me ask you this question So that's the topic that come up when pastor Jonathan and myself were on the phone.

Okay where the program started and He would like to hear that debate as well that question or that debate come up with him in a conversation with somebody else

Okay Do you? Well, it's up to you, you know, it's your house.

I'm Asking because I was asked the question and I'm I'm hard -headed.

Okay. I just you know, I'm confessing my faults one to another and and my My trade for so long has been

It's either right or it's wrong when I'm making things they're either fit or they don't fit They're either good parts or they're bad parts, and I don't try to salvage bad parts

I throw them away and I start all over again, right? So if if I'm writing laws then

I've Got a unilaterally apply them in order to be just so I don't see an exception to saying if if we outlaw and Abolish abortions altogether now totally on board with it, but No, but some wrong word echoes, but would nullify everything

I just said however I'm totally on board with abortion being abolished this very minute

There's how many 60 plus million children that have received no justice for the murder the women that were

Conned in to destroy in their child because they were led to believe that the child wasn't really a child or or the women who

Knew there was a child and just didn't care. It was inconvenient So they went on and murdered the baby anyway And the men who supported these things and the and the politicians who lined up to give them an avenue to do it

Where do you stop prosecuting? Do you stop prosecuting because I have a hard time

Understanding how you can apply something justly with equal measures and not find Everyone involved guilty, right?

Yeah, that's Go ahead. I don't know how to apply that. I don't know how to answer the question. I give a hearty I don't know how you do that So I would

I would love for that to be a teaser as one of our main topics next time Perfect because Jonathan wanted to discuss that as well

Is it retroactive and and I think that you brought up a

Probably something that Others are thinking about what about what has been forgiven?

Yeah, you know the spiritual life has changed So I think that's a good teaser for next time a great conversation to have

Did you want to say anything before that before we get to that call? No, I'm waiting.

Okay Okay Well before we run out of time, I wanted to get through these these last three

I want to skip ignore robes since it's over and that's basically just if if the federal government ever establishes anything again

We number one week we can ignore because it's unconstitutional and there's answers for that out there

Number two, we don't some it we don't submit to them if it's dishonoring to Christ Yeah, and also number three it should be a state's issue anyway, according to how our government set up Yeah, so all three of those things give us reason to ignore road, which don't have to do anymore

The the next one is abolish and not regulate the way I understand that is you've got these

Heartbeat bills you've got these 12 -week bills. You've got these 20 -week bills We're not called to regulate who gets to live and who doesn't yeah

Everybody should get to live. Yeah, is that how y 'all understand that? That's why I understand it this is these are

I mean if we're gonna Tease us on out into the next episode because those are those are things worth spending some time talking about So yeah, we'll talk more about that abolish not regulate

Criminalizes abortion and that goes to okay and then the last one

Establishes equal justice and that's something that Matt had brought up earlier. That's getting through these last three tenets of abolitionism

That'll be a good good place to go next time. Yeah, so Let's let's end with the gospel.

Um, Claude. Do you mind to share the gospel and Tyler? We pray for when he finishes The gospel is necessary For every single human being to understand and to know and to hear because We are born with a big problem

Say the least in that problem is the problem of sin Sin brings forth death and ultimately eternal separation from God The only way that we as Individuals men women boys and girls

Despite what we have done the only way that we can know the forgiveness of sins is to cast our confidence and our hope our whole being on the person and the work of Jesus Christ Scripture tells us

Jesus died for our sin in our place

Taking upon him the wrath of God bearing the weight of our sin that he died physically and that he physically rose from the dead and Not only did he physically rise from the dead, but he physically ascended to the father where he ever lives and makes intercession for us and We have this hope

We have this confidence That if you simply

Repent of your sin turn from your sin believe on Jesus Christ You will be saved according to the scriptures and you can know the forgiveness of sins

Despite what you have done Because the grace of Christ is greater than our sin father

God I'm grateful for a space where we can discuss this at this hard topic

And we can disagree and we can we can bristle with each other and we can we can grapple and wrestle and And we can think through these subjects because they're worth thinking through They're worth getting right.

They're worth Discussing because you have told us what is good.

What is true? And what is beautiful and This thing we call abortion Is none of those things?

That's right Lord we pray that as we continue to wrestle with these ideas in the time to come as Long as it is before you grace us with its

Glorious end that we would wrestle through these things in light of the gospel, which is the only thing

That will change hearts away from this evil in Christ precious name.

We pray Amen, thank you for watching the labors podcast.

We really appreciate it We pray as always that we're being God glorifying and edifying and helpful to you.

We hope to see you next time Thank you for joining the laborers podcast