LABORERS PODCAST- ABORTION

Hello and welcome back to the laborers podcast. Thank you for joining us. Tonight is going to be a heavy conversation about Abortion, we hope you will be edified and felt called to action. Stick with us.

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Thank you again for joining the laborers podcast. We really appreciate it. We've got big John with us. Tyler knowing bread of the word podcast. Real talk with big John and the happy Calvinist Claude Ramsey.

Here I stand. Theology podcast. The comment line is open. We would love to hear from you. Say hello, let us know that we can pray for you. Critique question. Whatever it may be. We'd love to hear from you.

So tonight we're gonna be talking about abortion, but before we get to that. We don't have time to show our promo video. We have time to show a new promo video. Tony Thomas. We're going to introduce Tony Thomas to you guys and he is a friend of Claude's and hopefully soon to be a friend of the truth and love Network, but here's a.

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Nice nice and don't forget to go check out the other supporters friends of the ministry of the truth and love network. So we we appreciate Tony Thomas and we appreciate all the other ones as well. So let's let's jump into our topic tonight.

It's a heavy one. It's a hot one and it can be a heated one, but we want to have an edifying conversation. That's glorifying to God and hopefully it will be helpful and it may turn into at least a part two.

We don't know. We'll see how it goes. I Want to start out with this verse and then we'll start with our questions points of interest. John 10 12 through 14 our topic tonight is is abortion. We've been having this conversation for a long time for too long now.

But the passage that I'm going to read is John 10 12 through 14 but a hireling. He who is not the shepherd one who does not own the sheep sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and fleas and the wolf catches the sheep and Scatters them boy someone that doesn't protect the sheep protect the innocent.

That is that is not someone to follow and and we are. We are looking for Men, and I'll say this. We want our legislators. To be this we want our pastors. We we should be expecting our pastors to be this.

But if you're not a legislator if you're not a pastor. It's okay. You can join this fight too, you can join this conversation you can join the. There is a place for you in this conversation. So that leads me to my first question to you guys.

And and this is something that hopefully most people have settled in in the heart. A long time ago, especially if you have some age on you. There's so many commercials out there asking for money to save Pets who who have been abandoned the hungry and other countries.

People are and if you're a pastor if you spend any time at a church. You've had at least one person come to the church and and ask for help. There there are people who are asking for help all the time.

Not just from pastors or churches, but from you as individuals and. And we've learned and I've learned that. You just can't say yes to everything you can't say yes all the time but I think there's a conviction at least among us and many others that This issue is one that Every person should be saying yes to so in your opinion guys.

This issue of abortion that we face right now. What elevates it? Above all these others to where We can consistently as Christians say yes, we all need.

Someway in this issue. I can a consistent theme Throughout scripture. Old Testament a New Testament. I think is is captured in Proverbs 6 16 or six things the Lord's hate seven are detestable to him. Howdy eyes align tongue hands and shed innocent blood.

Heart that devises wicked schemes and feet that are quick to rush into evil. I mean a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community. This It doesn't take Very long in the Old Testament to see where God desires justice right.

God desires There to be mercy, but he desires justice at the same time. God is holy and must and Must require justice. And then you see Jesus. The exact expression of God's image in the New Testament mirror the exact same the exact same sentiments in 17 of Luke.

Here, you know hear me still. Mm-hmm. He said to his disciples Offenses will certainly come but woe to the one that they come through. It would be better if a millstone Were hung around their neck and thrown into the sea and for him to cause one of these little ones to stumble and we're talking about teaching and and in that but this mind of of Christ pushing for People who can't stand up for themselves.

I mean he goes to because before the Pharisees who were doing things that are on unjust he calls them out. He makes a big stink out of it. He is obviously the good shepherd in the standard and It's a consistent theme.

We take care we take care of those who can't take care of themselves. With us orphans among those that there in the womb. These are to be treated as Weakened and helpless and were to were to give ourselves for their protection.

And I'd say to Rob to add just to jump right right on with John there to and to pick up on what you were saying. What what elevates this issue of abortion to a level that all Christians Particularly should be involved in.

You mentioned PETA. Right, so that's which that's people eating tasty animals, right? Yeah. Don't call common what God is clear don't call unclean what God is cleansed rise kill and eat. Yeah. So but the the difference really in that too, I mean because I can just hear right.

What's her name. Sarah McLaughlin or something like that, you know. Tears of an angel. I think that's the song that plays during the PETA commercial. Yeah you know and everybody gets tore up or tore up over it and they Saved the whales and all these other things in the thing the difference the chief difference Biblically speaking is the fact of this that human beings have a soul.

Yep. Animals do not have a soul. Okay. Okay, so Christ came to propitiate for the sins of the world the scripture says, right? That's what it says in 1st John. So and that is for the souls of men. This is what sets abortion above all or not above but you know should be raised should be raised to a priority in the life of the Christian because what's at stake is are the souls of human beings.

Tell you anything on that one. Honestly, I honestly we can just take this right back to Genesis 127 so God created man in his own image. He created him in the image of God. He created the male and female that at the end of the day the I think one of the most basic Principles in The subject of abortion as Matt breeding says it's literally an issue of life and death that we are talking about.

Value, we're talking about what it means to be or not to not be human. Where that starts at what point there's responsibility and accountability. What exactly is Man, what is man as it says in Psalm 8 that you are mindful of him.

Mm-hmm. And the reality is not only is it a discussion of what man is But it also draws us to who God is because we are made in his image. So where that starts In some form or fashion Paints how we feel God in one way or another.

That those two facts are together. I think yeah, what is man? What is God and how does that relate to the outworking of certain social aspects? Yeah.

So does this passage not speak to that exactly that you're talking about Tyler? Yeah, he chose us in him when. Before the foundation of the world. Yeah.

So let's look at something you started in John 10. I love that I love the whole book of John right just because I'm named after him. So a Thief comes to steal only to steal kill and destroy. And I've come that you may have life and have it in abundance now there's.

Obviously, there's a great deal more to the context of that. But let's take a look just for a second at this contrasting statement the enemy only comes to kill steal and to destroy and Christ comes to bring life.

Right the salvation and no other than Christ there's eternal life and no other than Christ so Just paint with a very broad brush. Those that follow after Satan are the ones that are quick to kill steal and destroy.

And if we're to be Christians if we're to bear the name of Christ Then if for no other reason than because as a representative a representative of him and we're image bearers of God. We are to be people who support life period period.

Because it's valuable and it's valuable because we represent or we are the image bearers of the most valuable of the most valuable which is God so if. And This Is something that historically the church has always been good at right?

Historically, it was the blood-bought bride of Christ that sought to see The abolitionists free the slaves that were the ones that stood on the front lines like Detrick Bonhoeffer in Germany. Who's stood for the Jews who are going in concentration camps and wind up going into concentration camps with them?

Yeah, this is this is normal in the church whenever you see an injustice you stand against it and You do so in a way that doesn't condemn the church in the eyes of the world, but rather Shows a Massive gap between What God calls holy and what man ultimately is I?

Like what you said there John and I appreciate that so much that the mindset of standing up for injustice Is normal for the Christian, right? Yes, that's an amazing statement right there and and at least it leads us right to our next topic and and and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to Claim, I know the motivation of every single person.

This has been my observation of what I see and what it what it looks like to me. So and and I don't know about all the different practices. We come from different states different locations. So I don't know all of the practices that happen in your locations but in in our area we have Pregnancy care centers and to me it seems like the the the mindset of leadership and congregation is.

That's what that person is called to that's their ministry it's not my ministry when they need support which They will send out baby bottles and they want you to fill the baby bottles with coins to raise money for that ministry that organization.

I've done my duty to fill my bottle and I give it back because that's their ministry and I don't need to get involved because I'm not called to that and and we need to we need to shake that mindset if if that truly is the mindset of folks and Go to the direction that John is leading us where he says standing up for injustice is the normal behavior of a Christian.

And I don't think people are aware of all the different nuances and all the different things that are going on out there so I want to take a moment to investigate. What is truly going on out there with these different?

Terms that we use. Mm-hmm. So here's some different terms and you guys helped me define Their nuances and what they mean. So we've got the pro-life Mindset of you know your average Christian you got your pro-life industry and you've got the pro-life movement and Then now which has become popular.

You've got abolitionist and you've got different forms of abolitionism. So let's start with the first one the the average Christian pro-life mindset. What would you what would you think that is?

I think the general Understanding and I'm Gonna try to say this carefully, I think the general understanding of pro the term pro-life is Very much a an Uninformed, I mean I'll use that term. It's an uninformed idea of what pro-life means pro-life Just to kind of lighten things here.

My wife won't mind me telling this. I like to tell this story on or we were We were driving down the road. It's been a few years ago, but there was a sign on the side of the road, you know, it was an advertisement and it said pro rodeo right on this date like March 13th, whatever and We passed the sign.

And April looks over to me and says why would anybody be against the rodeo? I Said no, that's that's just being professional rodeo. That's what's happening, right? It's not that they're for the rodeo but in the idea of being pro or for life is a Christian mindset, right?

It's a human mindset because the fact of the matter is nobody wants to die. Nobody Generally speaking right wants to kill other people. So the the uninformed view of pro-life is Sure, we don't want babies to be killed or To be the language that's using some some folks.

It's gets real shady. We don't want life to be. We don't want their life to end or we don't want we don't want to see this or we don't want to see that. But the term pro-life again in an uninformed view.

It's just a simple view that says We're for life. We're for babies living. And if you bring up the term.

Abolition which. When you're first reintroduced to that term, of course, you're you're thinking of something else. You're thinking of years ago. But it's been reintroduced into our society now being up for abolishing abortion.

But for the like you're talking about the average Pro-life Christian who's probably uninformed on the issue. Will generally say and I've had this experience. Yes, I'm an I would say that I'm an abolitionist because I want to abolish abortion.

But because of the being uninformed about all the nuances and what's really going on behind the scenes. Once you begin to define what Being an abolitionist entails. Yeah, they start pumping the brakes.

Yep. And I your example there I think is really going to help us go into the the next term. But does anybody else have anything else about the the pro-life average pro-life mindset of a Christian. I.

Mean I would for the longest time I didn't know what and still and kind of Uninformed as to what all abolitionists are. I understand as of today that there's more than one time. So The the thing that I'm afraid is the is the most common view on it Is is more wrapped up in a political worldview than it is a spiritual worldview.

They're using the terminology of the conservative politician to describe their their choices in it and it seems to be a Lack or excuse me, they continually look at their options as the lesser of two evils instead of just what's right and what's wrong it's kind of like Everybody that's voted.

Some point or another has been faced with an option of well, I just really don't like this guy. I really don't like this guy either. But I like this guy more than I like that guy so it's kind of a slide and scale and it becomes an acceptable vote right instead of just voting with your conscience you Vote in the way that you think hurts the other person the most and I'm afraid that sometimes we think about life in this way that we're going to Associate with a group so that we can oppose another group as opposed to just saying This is this is all together wrong.

Why would I accept any amount of it, right? Motive. Yeah, yeah I think that brother Rob's probably going to explain abolitionist of more in a minute which is going to explain what I mean. I think what I'm saying by when I say Well the pro-life will accept The same argument as the pro-abortion crowd as the pro-murder crowd up to a certain point.

Because it's better than the alternative. Well, I mean, that's like rooting around in the chicken pen looking for seed, you know, there's sure you might find one picked over. But you know where you got it from right?

I mean anyway.

Take away brother. Well Let's Let's go to that next next mindset. So we talked about the pro-life mindset the average Christian and there's something out there called the pro-life industry and Because Because we're uninformed and we don't have a desire a lot of times to become informed become educated because it's somebody else's ministry.

It's my Elsa's job. I'm not called to that. If If somebody puts the tag the tagline there pro-life. If they're a pro-life Organization pro-life ministry if they're a candidate that is they claim to be pro-life or they are supported by a pro-life Organization.

I'm on board full support because they say pro-life they use that language. But there is a pro-life industry out there and so can you guys speak to the pro-life industry aspect of this.

Pro-life discussion that we're having. I think that comes down to the a matter of Delegation. Then in a lot of ways it is delegating that responsibility to others whether that's with time or money or Advertisement whatever you want to call it.

Um, that is. Now we've talked a little bit about this and another aspect with like like revivalism with like the Billy Graham age when Evangelism became I bring my lost friend to church and super pastor will get him saved.

Oh. And in some ways I Think there are some parallels to I guess what you would call the pro-life industry is when we had all these Superstars that have basically got a career fighting abortion and That how the church Fights abortion is we give them $10 ,000 a year or something like that that we pay these people to go fight abortion for us.

And and so you've seen the the pro-life movement in some ways has become a bit of a business and we can debate the nuances of that a little bit but the notion with a pro-life industry is that there are Organizations that bring in a significant amount of money to fight abortion for the church or for the conservative people in general.

And they bring they bring not money to the table not only does it fun and you know, I can't speak for every organization and in ministry, but it brings money to their For lack of a better term paycheck their pockets, but also it brings money to Candidates and they give money to candidates and so it's a scratch my back.

I'll scratch yours Industry.

So For for me and some others who a little bit unfamiliar with some of the terminology that you're using here the insinuation I gather is that They actually Counting on this Fight to never be over so that they can always have a job.

Is that where you're getting to you got it? Yeah, okay I can see I can see that because you know. It's issues like if and that goes more to a political argument then than it does to a spiritual argument, right?

Because you know I know Some of the folks in our local Pregnancy center and they're the word they told me was they want to be out of a job. They're look forward to the day whenever they don't have a job no more.

I'll do something else and Which are they although I think most of them volunteer anyway, but my my thought process would be If you're gonna build an industry, so it's kind of like I guess social security issue.

Right, they're never gonna fix the social security issue because they're gonna always want to run on it every election, right? They're never gonna reform immigration or or welfare any of those other things that take care of them because they if they do that Then they've lost their their running objective.

There's any case.

Well, and from my experience one conversations that I had with pregnancy care Was was kind of different they felt like if we pursue this then There would be no need for them anymore. And my answer to that was You will be overbooked.

Because you'll have more babies. You're not gonna lose your job. And and let me speak to one of the things you say because we were talking about you hitting the nail on the head. Yes, that's what that's what we're seeing in In many pro-life organization and ministry.

That's what we're seeing today. However, I do want to make this caveat. Just like with the church God Created his church. He ordained it. He grows it. It's his church. It's a good and glorious thing but There are so-called churches out there and so-called pastors out there and They write books.

There's nothing wrong with a pastor writing a book. But they will have their church By as many books as necessary so that their pastor Can become a New York's best number one bestsellers list. Yeah Platformer that's right.

So they're not truly on that, New York's Bestseller list their church just bought enough books to put them on that list. That's crooked that that's crooked exactly so. So having a pro-life Ministry organization abolitionist ministry organization is not bad.

We're just calling out the bad. That we see that people have made. So I wanted to make that caveat. When we talk about the pro-life industry if you are seeking to glorify God and end abortion We are on your side.

Got you.

That's heavy. I mean because that's uh. Well, that's detestable and wicked to the highest degree because. Not only are you actually supporting What you claim to be fighting makes you a liar, too.

Very deceptive. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jesus had a term for that.

Hypocrites. Yes, sir. Paul twofold son of hail. Yep.

Yeah, and and that kind of that conversation where we've gone right now leads us into that that next term that we brought up earlier the pro-life movement. There has been a pro-life movement. For a long time.

Ever since Roe v. Wade started in which glory to God He ended it, you know nationally. But 50 years. Abortion was illegal or legal nationally.

Yeah, just to put that in perspective. My generation has never known a time where abortion was not culturally acceptable mine, either.

That's right, you know. And there has also yeah there has also been this pro-life movement since and.

We have not ended abortion. Yep, and Tyler I appreciate what Tyler just said there. There's never been a time in his generation that abortion has not been acceptable. That's the issue. Yeah, it's unacceptable.

As long as it fits in this this in this category. But that's the that's the thing with the pro-life movement. They're making these caveats these little nooks and crannies to say Abortion is not right unless.

This takes place. That's died the death of a thousand qualifications. Yep. Yeah, I never understood.

Yeah, I mean I understand why I see I see it what you're talking about in this abortion or this Pro-life industry because I've never understood Why somebody would make a big deal about passing a law and then when you read it There's a thousand pages to circumvent the very law that they just supposedly passed you know.

The biggest argument I heard about Roe v. Wade being overturned From the conservatives made me sick when it said we kicked back down to the states where it ought to been all alone I thought. Were you me?

That just a smaller localized government gets to decide whose baby lives whose baby dies. What why is it? Why has it ever been a on an option on the table? And that yeah to me is Before we get off of here.

I want to explain something that my wife and I went through for anybody who's pregnant and. And I don't want to I don't want to give that order. So but I'll forget if I don't say something for y 'all to remind me when the time comes.

Matt reading help us remember. We need we need here. Big John story in April's analogy or April story that you gave I meant to say this to helps make a distinction between those those two mindsets the pro-life mindset of the average Christian and the pro-life industry.

The it's good to have a pro-life mindset we are pro we are for life. But then when you when you're moving into the bad side is what is what we're talking about. You move over to the the pro-life industry.

Then you're moving over into what April was talking about the professional. Oh Yeah, yeah in the street. And so that I mean that was a perfect example that that you brought forth there. It's it's become professional.

It's become Hirelings monetize monetize. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You you lose your job. You lose your money and we can't do that. Yeah, it's a perpetuation of evil.

Yeah, that's what it is. It's kind of like the insurance company. They make you pay absorbent process to go to the doctor because the doctor has a charge of absorbent process to pay for his malpractice Insurance, so you take out health care insurance that you can pay to go to the doctor.

So the doctor can afford to charge you what he charges you because he has to cover his malpractice insurance. It's just a cycle of death and destruction mix.

Action. When you just did that, I don't know if y 'all have ever heard. That I came here. What movie it was. Tom Arnold, you know, you do y 'all know who Tom Arnold? Yeah, I'm my own grandpa.

Would you believe me if I told you I once heard that song in church. No way, we started a sermon on Father's Day. About awkward families starting with that song and went into David and his kids and that everything.

After Bathsheba I was in the second row. It was weird. Cuz I was sitting next to the guy's son.

Yeah, but back to the top of your hand. So the the last term that we want to help define which there's guys out there. They're way smarter than I am that could do a better job but we want to help Lord willing do the best we can to inform people about this this new or this rising idea of abolitionism.

Where it's getting a rebirth where we're mostly familiar with abolitionists fighting against slavery praise the Lord but it's it's rising again because the pro-life movement has not done its job and so the Abolitionists are rising again and saying we need to abolish abortion now from my perspective.

You you've got your there's different nuances, I think between abolitionists, but most of them kind of lean towards the same direction sometimes. I think you have your KJV only abolitionists who are very intense.

Toward anybody who does not follow their particular strict guidelines. And then there's some who are a little bit easier to get along with NLT. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't go that far. I Wouldn't go that far.

But but that's basically and and there's some things there's some ways that we can define it and help you understand more where the abolitionist Stance is right now, but basically an abolitionist is one who wants to Abolish abortion and It may be a good time to point out.

One of the things that they have in common that they the different groups the different movements in different states. That they're sharing with one another they may say it differently. But they usually talk about five different components five different tenets of of abolitionism of an abolitionist feel.

He here are the looks like I have six right here. But if you're gonna have a bill if you're gonna have an abolitionist mindset, the first one is no exceptions. Right. I mean and you hear that about all these new Pro-life bills that are that are coming forth, especially in my state.

Here's this new pro-life bill. We're lowering the the age. Except for these exceptions. Yeah. And the abolitionist says no exceptions. That trust me. There's answers to your questions. There's answers for these questions that come up.

What about this? What about this? There are answers just like there's no contradictions in Scripture and you can say what about this person this person there are answers. Yeah answers for these as well.

But the second one that they have here and I'm looking at Free the states if you're interested go to free the states org. And I think they're currently in the process of changing their name to abolitionist rising.

Abolitionist. Rising. Calm calm no compromise.

Yeah, I think within no compromise there's also the idea of no. What's it called called? The where you stagger. Oh my goodness, it's on the tip of my tongue. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm I'll think of it a second somebody.

Exceptions not exceptions, but you incrementalism incrementalism you don't try to. Thank you, Matt. Yeah, Matt got us. Matt helped us out. You you don't try to Work toward this ending of abortion in increments.

Yeah, it's either right it's wrong. It's life or death like Matt was talking about a matter of life or death. So when he when we say no compromise, we mean no increments it's When we submit to Christ and he says you don't go there Matt.

Yeah, you shall not murder.

That's it. Yeah. When we think about that to the the the idea of incremental isms, which is what the pro-life industry in the pro-life movement themselves promote is incrementalism thinking of it considering it just in a black and white and here's the thing to that the pro-life Industry doesn't want to see things black and white.

They want to see shades of gray here and there so on and so forth. But in the Matt concerning the matter of sin like when we preach the gospel, which is what which is what the Christians? Responsibility is to do really that's what our job is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ because salvation is found in no other but in the name of Jesus Christ and what what for lack of a better term what better sin to have forgiveness of than the sin of.

And I'm gonna say it murder that's what abortion is. Abortion is murder right, so when we go and we proclaim like if you are active in Which Christian should be active in standing against abortion? Our responsibility is to go and preach the gospel when you're outside at the abortion meals and we we are there.

We're not hollering obscenities at the doctors and the death scores that are there. We're simply preaching the gospel. Calling them to repentance now just like it is for us when the gospel was preached to us.

We all of us profess to be saved men right in the gospel call to us was. Repent incrementally of your sin. Right let off the gas on your sin and just coast in To the shore of salvation know the call to repentance is a is a stop.

It's a halting and it's a turning. It's a change of mind and that change of mind, of course happens by the work of the Holy Spirit. But it's a complete halting. So when when it comes to the sin of abortion the sin of murder our our Call is not to stop incrementally not to ease up off the gas, but to stop completely.

Quit murdering these children.

That's a great way to understand it and that helps a lot and I appreciate that we. We don't call murderers to stop their their serial killing. Yeah, yeah, we get them off the street and put them behind bars.

What whatever else is decided for them?

Yeah, the other fact of the matter is the only the only industry or the only people that promote an Incremental stopping of something are the people who are selling you the medicine to make you stop it.

You know the cigarette Companies make the nicotine patches that people use To stop smoking cigarettes. They get you coming and get you going right? You don't they don't want you to really stop sending them money.

It's their new business of making money. So they figure out a way You don't stop cold turkey was it was the old statement? I guess it's still a statement. I don't know. But you know, they say don't quit cold turkey.

You take take the edge off with. Yeah, whatever yeah with the patch, you know and the fact of the matter is is that whenever We ask people to repent we don't say slow down stealing and ease up on the pornography ease up on the line.

We just say quit.

Yeah, die to self and live in Christ. So let me ask a question and possibly bring eschatology into this. Right, I'd rather bring it Rob your post mill so. So you would say that's whether we're here 10 years or another 2 ,000 years that.

Things are going to gradually get better in the long run right.

As an army, I think just continue but go ahead.

Well, I'm kind of leaning a male myself these days, but from that post mill perspective. From that post mill perspective, how do you marry that with? Instance. Overturn abolition. Do you see a tension there?

Okay.

So so here's the thing. Repentance and Faith Themselves our gift of God, right? Right. We preach the gospel. The results are up to God. The results are up to God. And the idea the understanding that because we're still living and breathing and because these issues still occur and We as Christians hold to the truth that the gospel is the only hope for sinners.