Dead Men Walking: Dr. Burk Parsons of Ligonier Ministries Why are Creeds & Confessions important?

Ephesians 2 and the Opening Welcome

Hey guys, how you doing? Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking. There it is. And we are back. It's just Greg in studio today, but we have a special guest. But before we do, thank you so much for tuning into Dead Men Walking.

Of course, based on Ephesians 2, we were once dead in our trespasses and sins, but now we've been raised to priesthood places with Christ. Thank you, Lord. Guys, it's been a great week. Usually Jason's in here with us.

We do a little banter. We do a little news. We're going to get right into it on this episode though, because we have a very special guest, someone I'm very excited about. One of those guys, you've heard us talk about people who touch your life, even though you've never met them through their writings and through their even blog posts or the books that they write.

And this is one of those guys. He's a senior pastor of St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida, chief publishing officer and teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries and editor of TableTalk Magazine. He's also the author of Why Do We Have Creeds, which is what we're going to be talking about today.

It is Dr. Burke Parsons. Dr. Parsons, how are you, sir? I'm well, Greg.

It's good to be with you and truly an honor to be on your podcast. So thank you for the invitation,.

Brother. The honor is all ours. So first of all, why don't we just get a little background on you maybe for one or two minutes, let our listeners know what you're about, maybe some personal bio before we get into the good stuff.

Absolutely. Sounds good. So tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe family, what you've done in ministry, maybe some personal things that we.

Might not know. Well, there's a lot. I'm sure your listeners don't want to hear all of it, but I'm a pretty typical guy, husband, father, and I'm here actually at our home on the front porch and I've been married now for about 22 years and we have three wonderful kids.

I love my wife with all my heart. I love my children with everything in me. I'm a pretty typical husband, pretty typical dad. We spend a lot of time together and we live in the country. So we get to enjoy the beauty of trees and all that comes with country living.

And so we like a pretty simple life as much as we can have it and peaceful life as much as ministry will allow that. But yeah, I'm a pretty ordinary pastor when it comes right down to it. I've simply tried to be faithful to the stewardship and the calling that God has entrusted to me.

I don't have lots of ambitions to be anything or do anything great. I really just want to be faithful and be a faithful shepherd to our people that I have the honor of serving alongside of my associate pastors that I serve with and the elders that I have the privilege of serving alongside, the fine men and women and children of our congregation.

So I really, really just want to sort of make it to the end faithfully. And the ministry is, pastoral ministry is not easy as I'm sure you can understand. And striving to be faithful and to love the Lord and love his people well, and to hopefully finish out whatever years or months or days the Lord gives me is my hope.

So I don't know if you have any other questions, but that's sort of a.

Maybe a concise summary of... No, that's perfect. And bless you for just saying that too about being a pastor and being a shepherd to the flock. I feel like sometimes we talk about it on this podcast a lot too, to where other things can get in the way when you're in ministry and when you are a shepherd.

And it feels like even in the Western Christian church, we have a lot of shepherds chasing other things. So I do appreciate you saying that. For those of you who are just listening and not watching though, you should see the serene setting and the sound.

He's on the porch. I hear the birds chirping in the background. I'm going, I think we should make our studio outside for Michigan summers. I mean, I'm jealous right now that I'm inside. It's just a beautiful setting.

And I heard those birds chirping and I went, oh my goodness, I need to.

Get back out. Well, you know, we're very similar, Greg. I just saw Hummingbird go by. But we, I love the outdoors. We're both hunters. I'm an avid fisherman. I love to be outside. I love to be in God's beautiful creation.

So, you know, we're of similar ilk.

Why We Have Creeds and Confessions

So let's get into it. We'll dive right in. So why do we have Creed's Basics of Faith series? Burke Parsons, this is a little book, little pamphlet here that quick, quick read, easy read, but packed full of information.

I would suggest you go out, take a look, find it on Amazon, Thrift Books, Half .com, all those places. It might even be at Ligonier. I'm not sure he can correct me if it's not. But first of all, let's get this out of the way.

Why, before we define everything, what was the reason for writing this informational book?

Why did you see a need for that? Great question. Well, the reality of it is, is that the publisher asked me to write that. It was something that the director of publication for PNR reached out to me and asked me to write that book because he was concerned that there really wasn't a good resource on the subject.

And so I really wrote that book more apologetically, in one sense, as sort of to give an answer and an explanation or reason for Creed's. And I've not really spent a lot of time writing at this point in my life.

I've sort of sought to wait till I'm older and hopefully have some wisdom and experience to really begin writing more thoroughly, various monographs and so on. But this little book is something I did several years back.

And it really is for people who really don't know why we have Creed's. It's not written for people like you who know why we have Creed's. You know, I didn't really understand what Creed's and Confessions were.

I remember going to my, I think it was my first or second Ligonier conference in, I think, 96 or 97. And I really couldn't afford any of the books. I couldn't even afford really the full conference. At that time, you could purchase just one session at a Ligonier conference or two sessions, and that's all I could afford.

Well, I was in the bookstore at the Ligonier National Conference, and I found this paperback book, and I think it was like $5, maybe $10, I forget. And it was a book, it said on it, The Westminster Confession of Faith.

Now, I'd never heard of that. I didn't know what it was. But it was really the only thing I could afford. So I bought it. And I read it. And it was one of the greatest things that I'd ever read. I never read anything that was so concise and so helpful, so thoughtful, so thorough.

I didn't understand all of it. I didn't know if I agreed with all of it. But I just found it so helpful. And that was really my first encounter with creeds and confessions. So I knew of the need for it coming, really not being raised in the church, and then going into the Southern Baptist Church, the one where I was, we really didn't talk about creeds or confessions.

I'd never heard of the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed, certainly never heard of the Westminster Standards. But that's sort of the background. So I hope that makes sense.

Creeds as Subordinate Summaries Under Scripture

No, it absolutely does make sense. So for someone listening right now who might not know, can we define what a creed or confession is? What is it at its very basic idea, a creed or confession?

Well, very simply, when we say creed, we're really speaking shorthand for a translation of a Latin word, which means, I believe. And it's very important. And that's where we start in the book, because a lot of people think, well, I don't need a creed.

I only need my Bible. I only need Jesus. I don't need any creeds. I don't need any confessions. And that was probably my own mindset at one point, although I don't think I ever expressed that as such.

I think many people think they don't have a creed. The reality of it is, is that everyone has a creed, whether it's written down or not, whether it's spoken or not, everyone believes something. You know, people say, well, I don't need a creed, only I have Jesus.

Well, which Jesus do you believe in? And as soon as you begin to explain, of course, what you believe about Jesus is the moment you begin to profess your creed. So we all have a creed. We all have beliefs.

But formally speaking, of course, creeds and confessions are written down documents. They've been carefully formulated by individuals or groups of individuals, and they have been attested to throughout history by the church.

Again, that doesn't mean that every one of them is accurate. The creeds themselves, especially the Westminster Standards, tell us that councils do err. They make mistakes. They enter into error. And so it's important that we, of course, understand that creeds and confessions are in no way to be held above Scripture.

They are subordinate to Scripture. And it's, of course, the creeds and confessions themselves that tell us that and remind us of that. I will say that I do have a concern that has been my concern for many years, that sometimes within certain traditions and certain churches, sometimes you get the feeling that certain ministers, pastors, even professors, academics, and scholars, sometimes you get the feeling that they actually do hold a creed or confession on a greater authority than Scripture.

Now, of course, no one would admit that. Everyone would deny that. But sometimes you get the feeling that to disagree in any way with a confession, that you are disagreeing with Scripture itself. And so I think we need to be very, very careful and always remember and always remind the church that creeds and confessions are subordinate to Scripture.

Scripture is the only infallible rule for faith and life. And we always need to keep that in mind.

Yeah. So, I'm going to agree with you there, because I feel to the extreme, I've seen churches that just kind of throw out creeds and don't mention them, and we don't really need them. We only have the Bible.

Sometimes I think they feel that it challenges the sufficiency of the Bible if we look to a creed. And then on the other end, like you said, you have some that where they see it supersedes the Bible, and they almost, you know, chase after those before what Scripture says.

So, there has to be biblical moderation there in how we use them. So, that brings me to my second question. So, we know what creeds are now, so why do we need them and what function do they serve.

For believers? Well, that's a great question, and I know that you could give several answers to that as well, because there are a multitude of answers to that question. I will say that one of the most helpful ways of considering creeds and confessions is to regard them like maps.

You know, I've done a good bit of hunting and backpacking and hiking over the years with friends and with my kids and my family, and, you know, one of the things that's very helpful is to have maps. We all use maps, we use them every day, and what are they?

Well, they are essentially trusted guides that have been given to us by those who've gone before us. You know, when you're backpacking or, you know, more so when I'm on the water fishing, having the water maps and, you know, where the shoals and embankments are and, you know, where you can get through and where, you know, where it's a dead end, very critical.

I mean, quite frankly, it can save your life, and you want to follow those maps. You want to follow what those who've gone before you have provided for you, and, you know, when backpacking, for instance, you need to know where the water sources are.

You need to know where the pitfalls are. You need to know where, you know, there's very rocky terrain. You need to know where you need to take a break, where it's a good place to sleep for the night and so on.

So, these confessions and creeds that we have are given to us by our forefathers, because they've traveled these paths before. They've dealt with the problems. They've had to confront heresies of all sorts, and many of the early creeds, of course, as you know, were written in the face of heresy, confronting numerous heresies, and so those, you know, the words of those creeds are very, very carefully chosen, and we do very well not to mess with them or trifle with them at all, and so, really, we want creeds and confessions if we're humble and if we're wise.

I think that's sometimes missed. I think sometimes people who don't have creeds and confessions think that those who do hold ardently and heartily to their creeds and confessions are arrogant and pompous and so on.

Now, we can certainly all act that way at times. I certainly can, but the reality of it is we are going to these creeds and confessions because we know we need help. We know we need the aid of our faithful forefathers throughout history who have traversed these paths before and who have worked these things out, not perfectly, but they've done it to a degree that we do very well to rely upon them and the work that they've done for us.

We need to add to them. We need to, you know, there's a reason we still write. There's a reason we still have theologies coming out. There's a reason we need more. You know, the authors of the creeds and confessions knew very well that they were providing summary documents.

Also, a very important point that my colleague and friend and still, of course, teacher Sinclair Ferguson has pointed out many times to his students is that the confessions by and large, especially the Westminster standards, not so much the Hatterberg Catechism and the Three Forms of Unity, but the Westminster standards are documents that are written by large groups of churchmen, theologians or divines, as we sometimes refer to them.

And they gave to us statements and sections on doctrine that intentionally brought together all the varying sides and views within those gatherings. And that's a very important point that we sometimes forget.

And so we are to have that same humility, care, thoughtfulness and grace, even as we.

Approach them, I think. Yeah, that's good. That's good. So playing off of your map analogy, you know, we have different maps for different reasons, right? I'm not going to use a certain map if I'm out to sea or a certain map if I need topography or something like that.

So playing off that analogy, if I'm a listener right now who has been in a church that has never mentioned creeds, or maybe I'm a newer believer and I'm not familiar with creeds and confessions, and I say, I want to study creeds and confessions, I want to use that map, as you so eloquently said, where would you tell either a new believer or someone who's unfamiliar with creeds and confessions?

Where do we start? We've got a lot of different ones throughout the years and centuries. What would be some foundational creeds and confessions to look at and use.

Alongside as a guide with scripture? That's a great question, brother. I think you have to start with the Apostles' Creed. Most people know the Apostles' Creed, many people have memorized it, of course, but you got to start there.

And once you go from there, you really just need to walk through the early church creeds, sometimes referred to as the ecumenical creeds, but the early church creeds, and there are many of them, not just the four major ones, but there are many from early on.

You need to read the Athanasian Creed. And then I think moving on to the Westminster Standards is a helpful place to begin. I think beginning with the Confession of Faith and then going to the larger and shorter catechisms.

Some people suggest that it's better to start with Heidelberg Catechism or to start with the Westminster Shorter Catechism, but I think actually it's best to start with the Confession of Faith. And the reason is that the Confession of Faith begins squarely and thoroughly with the doctrine of Scripture, and it really lays the groundwork for what we believe when it comes to Scripture and its infallibility.

So I think really for a good, careful, systematic approach, reading the Confession slowly, don't rush through it just to say you've read it, but to read through it slowly and to really appreciate the way in which things are worded.

And I think that's a great place to go. Yeah. Well, you know, I think we're.

Table Talk, Ligonier, and a Life of Faithful Service

Going to round this out, but I also think I want to ask you maybe one or two questions just for my own satisfaction that doesn't have to do with creeds exactly. And I would agree with you on where to start with those creeds.

I know, and just for people listening, we homeschool, and I have three under the age of 12, and this year we started working through the shorter Westminster Catechism to where we memorize a question and answer, not the entire answer, but the shorter question and answer, one a day for that Monday through Friday.

And I would encourage anyone listening who might feel overwhelmed by the information contained in some of these creeds and confessions that I have three under 12, and they do just fine with memorization and picking up those concepts and things like that.

And don't be overwhelmed by that. Dive into those because they're such a beautiful thing. They point you back to the beauty of scripture, much like you were saying as well. But I wanted to shift gears here as we put bookends on this episode.

I am a huge fan of Table Talk. I am a huge fan of Ligonier Ministries as we talked about before we started recording and people know if they've been listening on this podcast for any amount of time, R .C. Sproul really marked my life with his teachings, the professor as he was so known.

And how did you get involved with Ligonier, with editing Table Talk? And for those of those out there that don't know what that is, maybe just give a little 30-second, one-minute overview of what that is and what the goal of Table Talk is, because I'm very interested in that because that periodical has been just an immense blessing to me and my family for years.

Well, thanks, brother, and I appreciate your saying that. It really does mean a lot. Of course, there's a tremendous team that we work together on Table Talk and a lot of very, very fine people, Thomas Brewer and all the editors are just dear friends and colleagues.

So Table Talk is the Bible Study Magazine of Ligonier Ministries and been around a long time. And I've had the great honor of serving as an editor of Table Talk now for I don't know how many years, I think since 2001, been serving on the staff of Table Talk.

But really, the story of how I got involved is really very simple. I was in seminary, starting seminary, and I didn't have much money. Thankfully, found a room on the back porch of someone's house, and it was just an enclosed back porch.

So the rain came and I could hear every drop and pounding down an air conditioner in the window. And I think I was paying 200 bucks a month to stay there and I needed another job. I just moved into town and I found a job at Ligonier Ministries.

I can work from 6 to 10 every night, go to school during the day, and work in the evenings. And so it provided a good job for me. And time went on and just was promoted and brought into different parts of the ministry and just tried to work hard.

But what's interesting is that every time I was promoted or every time I was given more work to do, I was at a conversation with my overseer, with RC, saying, listen, I believe I'm called to be a pastor.

And I'm grateful to be here. I'm grateful to be doing these things. But please understand, I'm still in seminary. I had to work my way through seminary. It took me five years. But they got it and they were grateful and it worked out.

And in 2001, I started working at the church. And 2004, I was ordained and started preaching alongside RC and when he was gone or sick or whatever. So just try to be faithful, brother. I just tried to do my job well, love my family well, and never really, quite frankly, never really thought I'd be a good pastor.

Didn't know if I'd make it as a pastor. I thought I was a little different, maybe a little weird, a little strange. I thought if I were a pastor somewhere, maybe I'd just be in a small country town and I can love the people and care for them and bury them, marry them.

And that's kind of what I had envisioned, quite frankly. And I never really envisioned being a pastor of such a large congregation and being with Ligonier all those years. So anyhow, that's probably more than you wanted to hear.

No, well, we like you. We think you're just fine. So as we wrap up here, do you want to throw out any websites or if you're on social media where people can contact you or blog sites, go ahead and throw it out.

Let the people know what you have going on.

Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that probably the best place for a lot of great resources is Ligonier .org. Lots of great stuff. TableTalk Magazine as well has great online articles, really a tremendous, tremendous source for believers to go.

So I'm on Twitter, but I don't want to do self-promotion. But TableTalk Magazine and Ligonier, two great places for great resources.

A lot of them are free. Awesome. Well, Dr. Parsons, we appreciate you being on today, being gracious with your time. And for those of you listening, make sure you check out Why Do We Have Creed? You can still find it.

It's still in print a little bit on a couple couple of websites out there. Go ahead and Google it. Check it out. It's a great read, very easy read. Good one to take with you when you're camping this year, when you're out at the lake.

You can get through it probably in a couple of days. And just I encourage you to check that out because it's such an important issue to from someone like me who grew up in church but didn't know anything about creeds or confessions.

And when you see those as a roadmap that reflect you back towards Christ and Holy Scripture, it's such a beautiful thing. Guys, as always, we appreciate you listening to Dead Man Walking Podcast. You can find us at dmwpodcast .com, Dead Man Walking Podcast, anywhere on social media.

We're on all the places, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. And tell a friend. That's how we bring glory to God, by you sharing the podcast. As we grow, we want more people to know who God is and God be glorified.

Dr. Parsons, once again, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, brother. Good to be with you. Thank you. Yep. And as always, guys, God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Dead Man Walking Podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips or email us at deadmenwalkingpodcast at gmail .com.