Hebrew Roots Movement with R.L. Solberg

Can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics Can you show me anywhere in the

Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual because again, I understand you're appealing again

Sure Wait a minute, I thought

I was gonna get to have a talk you asked a question. Hang on a second, sir Be quiet. Okay. Well, there you go.

I will mute you because it's not your show you asked a question I'm gonna give you the answer Genesis 6 for the word

Olam is used referring to those who were of old Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual

Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st

Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 24 24 7 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 119 52 1 43 3rd verse 3

Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28 Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 110 should

I go on for more? blah blah blah blah blah Your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the

Bible we can answer any Question that you have about God in the Bible, and if you doubt that just go to apologetics live .com

Join us just scroll down to the stream yard icon the duck icon Click on that and we will be happy to answer your question

If you ask a really hard question, and I say I don't know just remember I don't know is a perfectly good answer now

I had to play the intro there because well that was I forget his name like Sunday School Batman or something like that I forget but he was that was a clip from the last time that we had our guest

RL Strohberg that when he was on and That was a clip from there by the way,

I should mention I don't mention it enough But the intro song that you heard that introduces this program every week that also was provided by mr.

Solberg so he will be coming on in a moment. Let me bring in our co -host here drew. How are you, sir?

Thanks for filling in last week I know you're gonna be backstage because you got some family responsibilities, but I Had to bring break out an old striving for eternity shirt

I don't know if you if you recognize this, but this is I used to always wear this with the cufflinks This is the

Donald Trump signature shirts that he used to make he doesn't make him anymore

But I figured in celebration of sanity in America I would

I would break this out. We have you know, the Marxists have not succeeded

So, yeah, but so that's the big news of in the news section is that Trump actually won by such a majority

That Kamala Harris actually conceded It's amazing

Not a sheet. She conceded at like 8 o 'clock She just said all right, everyone everyone go home get some sleep.

Like yeah, she saw the way it was gonna go Well her internal polling told her what how it was gonna go

They were just I guess hoping that they could pull it out with ballot stuffing but and they're succeeding in that for the

Senate races and the and the house, but with with ballot dumps, but but yeah, so I mean, you know, this is just Miraculously, there's 15 million 20 million votes that are missing from 2020

I Where did they go? What happened? Anybody who thought

Joe Biden can get more votes than Barack Obama is delusional

I Mean just for the record So That is that is an amazing thing in the news section.

I was pleasantly surprised I went to bed assuming that I'd wake up in the morning and find out that Kamala won

And instead I found out no They it was a I mean he had over 300 electoral

Bout oh, hey look. Yeah, and in the Yes, he figured out easy have figured out how to put his name in there.

So it's he says yes, it's haps Congratulations to have see figured out something with technology wise

But you know, it's crazy with the election when you look He got

Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania three huge states, but if you look at California More counties in California went red for this election than in 2020

Well, this is a really interesting thing was and I I was doing Keith Foskey From your

Calvinist podcast did an election night thing got a bunch of us on So we were giving political commentary, but having a lot of fun is probably the most humorous fun election was stream on the internet because he purposed it for it to be a lot of humor and I noticed that Jersey went from a solid blue to leaning blue and So I was watching it it got within 2 %

You know, they did the ballot dumps in Newark late You know and it was if you if you look at it

It's a 5 % if you realize that RFK was still on the ballot in Jersey. That's four four and a half percent basically,

New Jersey is Is almost the definition of a swing state?

That's crazy to think about right so if you look

New Jersey, New York California the solid ones were all close then closer than ever before New Jersey's was never close

Democrats win by like 15 20 points and they only won one by five

You know a lot of those Mmm, a lot of those states where RFK jr.

Was still on the ballot Made a difference because a lot of those votes that just didn't they didn't like Trump But they didn't they didn't like Kamala.

They voted for RFK jr. And that took away from Kamala But it didn't take away from everyone that was going to vote for Trump in the first place.

And so Yes, so you're saying that the the extra half a point would go for Kamala in New Jersey That could be yeah,

I mean and because when you think about it, you know RFK just the family legacy of being

A democratic dynasty, I guess you could say with the family in Washington in the government

You know, you have people who are lifelong Democrats because of the Kennedy family

But they know they don't like Kamala because of how far left she is But they're not quite on the

Trump train yet, right? And so it's like well, who are you gonna vote for? well, I'll vote for RFK jr.

You know and and Robert Kennedy was in all those states.

He was trying to get off of the ballots, right? Once he once he gave his endorsement to Trump He's trying to get off the ballots and then the people who are trying to prevent him from running in the first place from getting

On the ballot. They said oh no. No, no, you can't get off now So they wouldn't even let him off and I think that's one of the things

I in the partner in some states Well, the thing is so interesting is that there was a Democrat another Democrat that was running

I forget his name like cook or something. I forget Uh, they sued he's he was still running they sued to get him off In the same states that they sued to keep rfk on so it's like Don't like you know, you're you want to keep a guy on that's

Not running, but yeah, well, I know one other than than donald trump

I think the biggest person that that needs to get uh credit for this would be elon musk Oh, yeah, and elon musk had a lot online if if elon

If harris won, I mean they were threatening to try to destroy his business. It's really quite funny. I had people contact me

Wednesday And text me i'm buying a tesla Because of elon musk

I have a friend a friend of mine who's totally against evs Didn't like him, but he he told me he's he's going out and and I think he's getting the cyber truck

Oh Yeah, so I really encouraged it just so I could drive it Yeah, so those cyber trucks i've i've i've only seen one like really up close um

They're really really ugly But when I got to see it and see like the actual truck bed space

I was really impressed and there's actually a lot of people who are Uh, they're welders right they're independent contractors for construction companies they buy these trucks

Because in the truck bed, you actually have a plug that can power generators and it can power um welding machines for just forever without anything really happening to the battery or the truck itself and it's really impressive

Yeah, you yeah, I mean the car the truck itself is a huge battery So, yeah, you can you you can get that and then uh

Use that as a generator, which a lot of these guys do. Yeah Yeah, see I I did tell my buddy.

I saw one that was it was, uh wrapped in black and then um then what they did was, uh they had um

Uh put some and it actually looked cool because they looked bad but it looked good they wrapped it in black and then they um,

They put some uh, like rails on the top uh, so I'll just i'll just uh, you know for everyone to see i'll show everyone mine

Yeah, the one you the one that's yours you found in the parking lot, yeah, that's exactly right. Thank you

That's exactly what it was right there Yeah, you know i'm not I don't like tesla cars

Uh, but I am a fan of elon musk Uh, and he's a guy that actually a couple years ago

It seems like he was intentionally trying to do things to like see if he could tank his company like one

He tried to tank his own stock And he was telling people don't buy any more Of tesla stock, you know, don't do any of that and then people kept buying more and it shot it through the roof

Yeah, well you don't enjoy the tesla cars because you probably haven't driven one test drive one

Well, I mean Okay, i'll go test drive. Maybe they'll let me test drive one. I don't know.

I just I just drove one in in dallas It is a lot of fun You know, I never thought about that doing that Now I have ridden in one when i've traveled to dallas when because we uber everywhere when

I travel for work I might have to see if we can't rent a car instead and rent a tesla.

Yeah. Yeah Well, let's I know you're going to go backstage i'm going to bring robert in So we could talk some hebrew roots and old testament covenants, so Rl sauberg robert sauberg welcome to apologetics live sir.

Good to see you my friend. Thanks for having me on again Good to see you again. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you remember that guy that you know was the blah blah blah guy

But we we play that every once in a while I I I love that that I hope he comes back He never came back on after you you know

That that time he he wanted to you know, correct you but I guess scripture wasn't in line with him

Yep So it has been a long time since we've had you back on and you've written another book since your torah ism book so uh

You know, by the way, I should mention I am completely jealous of you Just for the record because you were actually able to get a debate

With rabbi tovia singer. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah that actually fell into my lap.

I didn't go looking for it. So Yeah, well i've I have said publicly

Uh that I will debate tovia singer Anywhere anytime without any preparation

Because that's how bad his arguments are. He actually heard that He he emailed our ministry

He called the ministry he Sent a message on facebook to the ministry.

He contacted the person whose youtube channel I was on Through youtube and then he called that person's ministry five different ways asking for a way to get in touch with me

So we could set up a debate And so I said sure let's do it um, he actually created a banner that he used to have on his facebook page

And it had a picture of both of us and he said we're going to be debating, you know a rabbi and a uh pastor

And I think he even said former jewish christian pastor And so he was all in favor for it and then

I had a guy contact the ministry who said he wanted to help me with debate prep for Tovia, and he said he he used to be a former pastor

Now I never gave him my full debate strategy Yeah, but I guess I gave him enough because later in the conversation.

I realized this guy actually converted to judaism and follows tovia Wow, so ever since then tovia has ghosted me

Uh, and when one of our guys used to work for us Asked him why he's dodging me

We noticed afterwards he went and removed the banner That and so he went back years to find the banner and remove it and someone said that he had removed it

So I went and looked and yep, it was gone so Yeah, you i'm jealous. You you got the a debate that that I still can't get.

Yeah Yeah, that was a that was a heady experience but yeah, they they reached out to me and and almost for sure it's because they knew that I was

Uh an unknown easy to push around guy or they thought I was You thought you were because that debate did not go well for him at all

So if you want folks if you want to see that debate just go and and and search for your robs robert solberg and tovia singer

Uh, that was an entertaining, uh fun debate. I always like watching tovia singer get

Uh his hat handed to him, which you did very effectively I appreciate it so so let's let's uh

For folks who who haven't followed you. I know we got haps addison who's in the in the watching online

He is probably your largest fan He's awesome. He he loves you.

I mean i'm just going to tell you in private groups that we're in Haps talks about you and praises you all the time.

He he's he's like a little kid in a candy store probably right now Here he goes he's he's he's putting up, uh, he says, uh,

Love solberg and thanks for sending me his book. I sent him a copy of tourism. I think that's one

So cool. Hey haps all right, so let folks know a little bit about you and really you are

The only author I know that has a book on that deals with hebrew roots and and you call it tourism.

So Let's start by how did you get into that? I I know I know that story but the folks who don't know you let them know how you stumbled into this

What got you writing tourism? Why do you call it tourism and then talk about your newest book?

Okay. Yeah, that's uh It's an interesting story because I didn't intend to find

This this uh belief system. So I for a long time i've been studying philosophy apologetics that sort of thing

And I was also always interested in sort of the the common thing you think about when you think about apologetics, you know

Faith versus science faith faith versus atheism that sort of thing and so when

I had a friend of mine who was we went to Church together and and his his wife and my wife sang worship music together and suddenly one christmas he was posting

About why christmas was pagan and you shouldn't celebrate it. And so I thought well, that's weird

What's what's going on with this guy? Uh, and that way he's from minneapolis. So that's where we used to live for many years

We moved down here to nashville 20 years ago. So I hadn't talked to him in years and so I reached out and said hey

What's going on? I'll bite. Why why would you call it pagan? So That is what I what

I kind of refer to as stumbling through the back of the wardrobe Into this other world that I didn't even know existed had no idea about it

And so what happened was I began debating him or you know Dialoguing with him or attempting to dialogue with him just on facebook.

So it was one of those rare Rare literary devices that was actually a very productive facebook argument um, and what happened was

I again, I wasn't aware of how big this was or what was going on, you know across the Actually the world now that I know it but I started getting people reaching out to me that I didn't know some of them were

Relatives or friends of his others were other people dealing with the exact same thing in their own in their own worlds

Asking me. Oh, this is great. What do you say about this? What do you say about so I I noticed there was a need

Um, and there's a great book by uh, is it by blackaby? Experiencing god and he talks about I love it.

He talks about Don't just make up stuff go find out where god's working and join him there.

And so that's what I feel like I ended up doing uh Joining god where he was dealing with these small little pockets

It's not some huge thing like like mormons or or jehovah's witnesses or something like that So a lot of people haven't heard of this this whole thing though Typically the most common name for it is hebrew roots

But that doesn't describe everybody and a lot of them don't want to be called that so the concept is

In a nutshell, there's a there's not one monolithic movement but the concept is that these are people who follow jesus and at the same time believe that Christians are required to keep the old covenant law and and that not keeping the old covenant law is sinful and disobedient

So that's kind of the common thread in in any of these what we might call torah observant with quotes torah observant or or torah keeping christian communities and so because there were so many

Versions of it so many flavors with slightly different theology here and there I ended up coining the term torah ism

Because that seemed to be the best Name I could think of that also didn't have baggage attached to it

So I wanted to come up with a name that I felt would represent it the torah Of course the torah itself is a beautiful and fundamental part of the christian faith

So nothing against that but torah ism is this misapplication of the old covenant law?

to on or against uh new covenant christians and it's just it's just uh ridiculous and and it's amazing to see

I get I bet I get More than a dozen messages a week directly from people who are either in their churches in their families and their marriages are suffering because of this

Belief system or I should say because of people who are extremist about this belief system So so i'm seeing a lot of damage, but it's funny when

I bring it up with with average church goers They have no idea what it is Unless they've experienced it then they're like wow.

What do you do about it? You know, so that was kind of the um, that was kind of the area that I felt god Sending me to which at the time i'll be honest

It felt a little bit like he was sending me out to like a remote outpost on the eastern front of the kingdom, right?

And I wanted the big battles But this is where he sent me and of course god was right and I was wrong and there's lots going on here

So i'm glad i'm i'm glad i'm here Yeah, I mean it is something where no one

Really tackles it or deals with it like you have Yeah, that's why that's why

I ended up kind of pursuing it. What I ended up doing was Every time my buddy would write something some make some claim

I would I would instantly know in my soul in my brain That's not right, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

So i'd study it and then post a blog article So I ended up with a series of blog articles about it and then my pastor said my pastor from my previous church said

You should collect all those into a book because we have that problem at our church He he just had to kick a guy out of sunday school sunday teaching

Uh, because he was starting to teach all this stuff Um, and so I said sure that'd be easy. I got all these blogs.

I'll just write a book but of course that's simple so You know a year later I finally got the book done so yeah, writing a book is a is a big thing so, uh, first off we have uh, uh

Stz zone. I don't know how to properly pronounce the zone. Maybe he says yo, you're awesome.

Love your videos Thank you I don't know if he's talking to you or me. I'm gonna assume you i'm gonna Oh, yeah, that's a good point

It could be you it could be but I doubt it. Uh, because i've never seen the name before He's he's not a regular here, but hopefully he will be uh haps says to ask you

What two house theology is in human roots hebrew roots? um

Okay, so this is one of those things and it's interesting because all these different topics you get into with hebrew roots

There are different flavors of arguments and some people use terms that we think have a meaning and it means something totally different Um two two house theology is this idea

Loosely speaking it'll i'll kind of touch on all the different flavors of it that i've heard but the idea it goes back to the

The divided kingdom of israel, right? So you have the 10 tribes in the north the two tribes in the south the 10 tribes in the north were

Wiped off the map by assyria assimilated and then the two tribes in the south judah and benjamin were then

You know conquered by babylon went into exile came back, etc, etc. So out of that um exile and return came all these uh

I'll call i'll just call them crazy conspiracy theories. I'm just going to call them what they are so things like The lost 10 tribes of israel

This is exactly the type of theology that even spun off into black hebrew israelites or just hebrew israelites

Sometimes they call it now, but the concept of it is that um Oh, we don't know what happened to the 10 tribes

But so we think it's us whoever us might be, you know, there's there's a there's a british version of it

You know british israelism israelism uh so it's the whole concept of How it split up where those tribes are now and then there's also another component or another approach to This two house theology the the in the kingdom of israel the kingdom of judah um the thought

One of the thoughts you'll hear is that oh, well, they're called jews because they're all from judah and now

When you become a christian when you start following jesus you have to join You become grafted into israel.

And so you become an israelite And so now you're under the law that god gave to israel at sinai is

I'm i'm mashing up a bunch of different versions of it But this is the general concept that there's that there's these two houses these two house of judah house of israel

And somehow that impacts how we follow jesus today And and for me someone who actually is an israelite from the tribe of levi

I find it so amazing that like everyone wants to say. Oh somehow we become israel, you know, I i've

I find it interesting that whether you look at the catholic church you look at the

Mormonism, you look at all these different groups. They want to claim they're israel, right? and I think the the only way

I can make sense of it is it seems as if They think that Because israel is called god's chosen people

And somehow this may that gives them some special I don't know grace privilege

You know To seem like they're special too Israel was used by god for for a special purpose at that time uh and he's he it doesn't mean that um

The church is not in a special place in this time, right? Yeah Yeah, it's interesting because everyone wants to feel like you said special so it becomes it becomes an identity issue um, which to me is very problematic because you know galatians

There's a lot of a lot of places in the bible galatians 3 i'm thinking of specifically There's no jew and gentile in christ.

There's no male and female. There's no slave and free. We're all one We're all seeds of abraham by faith

So this trying to bring it back to an ethnic identity Really frustrates me.

Um, especially when you've got like like, uh, I had vocab malone on my channel interviewing him and he's like a expert in in black hebrew israelism

And and the concept is to me offensive because it's like god shows in act 17 paul says god shows all the borders of the nations and when they would be and who would you know who

Where would be born and he's in charge of all that stuff? so No one chooses their own skin color or ancestry or any of that god chooses that for us and so if you're an african -american, let's say and you want to Eject reject the african heritage and say no.

We're actually we're hebrews And then now you have to say well when you say well then okay

Well, then who are the jewish people today? Oh, there's some other you know mutt race or something. I mean, it's just horribly offensive

Um what you're doing is you're denying the identity god gave you and trying to go after something else

You know what? I mean, and so it becomes heartbreaking in a sense that that that some people would come up with these fantasies about how they have to chase after this identity when god god already knows who they are

And determined all that for them and and we should all I think everybody of every skin color should be celebrating how god made them

Right, and so when you get into this and I think it's a I think it's honestly a spinoff from identity politics

Um kind of the theological twist of it and to me it's heartbreaking

Yeah, well, I remember after reading your book, uh, I I asked you if you knew vocab I think

I put the two of you and touched me to him. Yeah, I introduced you because So much of what you're doing

He's written the only book that I know of on black hebrew israelites and and you're right now they call themselves

Hebrew israelites. Yeah, and and I just saw the the work the two of you were doing.

There's a really good mesh there Yeah, there's a lot of overlap theologically speaking, especially yeah

Yeah, and and for folks that you know, as I mentioned black hebrew israelites as you mentioned it There's one passage they use

Um those who are long -time listeners here, you know when we've had black hebrew israelites come in here we've dealt with this verse uh, we we had a a debate actually got one guy to Uh to finally debate me for like a year and a half because when

I say i'm i'm a levite they freak out It drives them nuts Uh, because they'll be you're a fake israelite.

You're not a real israelite And i'll go how do you you know, like the rabbis trace it back through the last names and through lineages, you know so -and -so's father begot so -and -so's father, you know, like That's how you do genealogies

Right. How how do you have it? How could you figure it out? Because I don't think that like When the black slave trade was happening the african slave trade that they were like, oh what line what we oh

Oh, you're you're from judah. Okay, we could take you and bring you in And we're going to make you a captive like that didn't happen that that's their argument because they'll they'll say that like the

The judah those in america are from the line of judah, and I think it's dan that's in jamaica

Slave trade was really concerned in making sure the the tribes were kept, you know together but The only verse they have that they use to argue this is deuteronomy 28 verse 68

And let me read this to you and and explain how they argue. They say it says The lord will bring you back to egypt in ships by the way

About which I spoke to you You will never see it again And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves

But there will be no buyer now they argue That this is the african slave trade because only africans

Were sold as slaves in ships. So the word that they will take literally is the word ship

Egypt doesn't mean egypt That that actually in their mind that actually means slavery um now i i've i've been confused with it because when you look at this, um

It's kind of interesting with the fact that If if they're going to say that this is the african slave trade and i've asked them this so are you telling me?

that there were no People sold as slaves because according to this

It says they sell themselves to their enemies But there's no buyer right

Huh, that's not the african slave trade And one of the things that I have challenged them with is jeremiah 44 verse 8

Because what I argue is that we do know that there were jewish people israelites that fled to egypt when the assyrians came in and and And also when when you know nebuchadnezzar came in they fled to other countries

Jeremiah 44 verse 8 says provoking me to anger with the the works of your hands burning sacrifices to their gods in the land of egypt

Where you are where you are entering to reside So that you might be cut off And become a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth.

So in jeremiah's time Israelites were fleeing to the land of egypt

So we have the bible telling us exactly what deuteronomy is referring to Yeah, exactly well,

I mean and it goes it goes even back further than that because you have to You and I talked about this before we went live context

Yeah What is deuteronomy 28? It's the it's the blessings and the curses the blessings for obedience the curses for disobedience and so that's tied directly to The people that were pulled out of it egypt, right the israelites

I mean From deuteronomy 28. It goes all the way back to abraham and so and so to think that that So what that would have been what 3 000 years before the slave trade that brought people here

You know There isn't there is no historical line of connection between any of that is is the problem in the bible

It's all directly related to abraham and then isaac and jacob and then the 12 tribes and so on and so on But there's nothing there's nothing

Anywhere that indicates that's not for those people that's not for those people in that time And what happened was those were the blessings and the curses for for the for disobeying or obeying and keeping the covenant, right?

Well, jeremiah 31 says they disobeyed in the they broke the covenant And so we now are under a new covenant

I mean, they're they're missing the whole it's like they took a branch off the highway of Of biblical theology and just went over to this weird strange

Political theory that has no support in the bible and no support in history for the things they're claiming

Well, so what they do with this which is so funny. They take one word Yeah ship that's literal everything that makes the connection in their mind, right?

Yeah, and when you challenge them on it, they they go to isaiah chapter 28 And this is how they that what they'll say is they say you you can't read the bible like a book

And so they look at uh, isaiah 28 10 and and uh, verse 13 Which says verse 10 says he says order on order order on order line upon line line upon line

Here a little there a little and it recites the same thing in verse 13 So they say you can't read the bible like a book.

You have to take it here a little there a little Which is kind of really interesting because if they read

Versus just before that order on order order on order line on line line on line

Would actually say that you shouldn't take here a little there a little right? They say what you're supposed to do is take a take a verse over here and a verse over there and stick them together

It's called proof texting, which is not how you interpret And it's just that's frustrating.

I mean, I think it was iranaius one of the church fathers talked about false theologies like this

And he compared it to like a mosaic, right? So you've got all these different tiles and the bible puts them together and let's say it shows an image of a king

Jesus as the king right? Well, so a lot what a lot of these false theologies do is they take the exact same tiles

The verses and the ideas from the bible mix them around and now they have a picture of a of a hippopotamus or something

It's the same. It's the same data, but it's just getting mixed up and you can really do that You can go anywhere you want if you're going to start pulling stuff out of context.

It's it's it's really scary Yeah, it is. So so let me let me just tell folks if you want you can go out and get the book tourism

It I know it's available on amazon. Is there any place better they could go to get? There you go.

That's the only place that's available. This is through williamson college press Did you refresh the cover because I mine

I think has the brown cover. You don't have the second edition No with 100 additional pages.

Yeah. Wow. So yeah, this is this is the the the blue version is revised and expanded

Ah, yeah, so it's available hard cover soft cover, uh audio book.

I did the audio thing. Uh, um, And then as well, so yeah, and then so is the kindle one updated?

Yes, they're all they're all in the second edition. Yeah, so I have I have uh, I have the kindle version as well.

So you have the classic Yeah, it's going to be worth about four cents any minute now

So So hold on to that Yeah, so let let's get into um, well actually first, you know, we should allow you to give your

You know, where do you work and and some of the stuff that you're doing professionally? Yeah. So, um,

Well, i'm an author. Obviously i've got i've got three books out fourth one coming out. I've got one Um for anyone that's out there.

I got to promote the new book coming out. It's dropping in march From zondervan, it's called uh, the law the christ the promise and it's a it's a galatians bible study

But it's an apologetic approach to that to that book Interesting. Yeah, so and i've got three other books.

So i'm an author I'm, also a professor at williamson college here in nashville a professor of theology and occasionally they'll have me do uh philosophy as well um

And then uh, yeah, and then i've got a ministry defending the biblical roots of christianity

So that's my apologetic and teaching ministry and we've got Uh youtube channel we're putting out constant videos bible studies that sort of thing.

Um, the biblical roots .org Is the website? The biblical roots .org

Yeah, you're also a musician Yes I'm a recovering professional musician.

I call myself You have you've done the uh intros for both my this show and uh, my rap report

So, yeah So I and I I enjoy both of them and I do all the music little interstitial music cues on my on my videos too

It's just a fun little side project for me to put some of that stuff together Get it lets you use your your skills that you had you know early in life to To to use this way.

So yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I still do I still do play music not professionally, but my wife and I uh work with a um

Prison ministry called behind the walls that's been around for like 50 years So we actually we fly all over tomorrow.

We're headed down to dallas to do some prisons Uh, we we do music there and then just help spread the gospel

Sharing with folks one -on -one. It's awesome. And then we do you know, we're worship on the worship team

We do a lot of stuff locally here for for um What do you want to call them? I don't know if they're all ministries, but they're all uh,

They're all they're all organizations that help help others so That's kind of what the main thing we do with our music now you just using it to kind of To serve the lord

Yeah Well, I was just down in dallas for the fight laugh feast conference. Oh cool.

So, uh, We was just I could tell you this if you like sushi I will tell you where to go for sushi in dallas because I found an excellent excellent place.

Oh, where is it? It was called blue sushi sake and uh blue blue sushi sake grill

Okay, i'm writing this down yeah, right So here's what you got to do and folks if any sushi

Connoisseurs out there. I will tell you a trick. I went with a brother and he didn't know this either. I I I educate lots when it comes to sushi, but Uh, what you want to do when you go to a sushi place is ask them if they have fresh wasabi

Now that's not fresh paste If they give you the paste what the paste wasabi is horseradish

Wasabi itself is very expensive. So what they it's in the horseradish family. So what they do is they add green dye to to Horseradish and that's what they typically give you

If you get the paste you're not having real wasabi So you got to make sure usually it comes in one of two forms

Usually it comes in it'll be usually in like a little sauce and it'll look like a little bean sauce um

That it what the what real wasabi does you put it on don't put soy sauce Just put the wasabi and it brings out all the flavor of the meat

But this place was even better because it wasn't just that they had fresh wasabi. They actually had the root and he just Like shaved it off right there

It was great. So right there and then I knew and I turned to my friend and said we are going to get some good

Fresh fish because if they have real wasabi They have good fish because if they if they're care enough for that now granted folks

If you're if you ask for fresh wasabi, it's usually an extra cost because it is very expensive

So if you get a little bit of wasabi and it's like 10 or 15 But it's worth it.

It's worth it when you go there. That's awesome Yeah, so if you go there they they there were some great great fish

Uh loved it. I my buddy and I said we are glad that we discovered it the last night of fight laugh feast because If we discovered it the first night,

I think we would have been there every night like we actually went to someone's house We we knew that they were just gonna have like light snacks.

So we ate at the sushi place went there We were driving back because the the organizers of the conference were at the hotel and we didn't realize they were waiting

Waiting for us to go over there. So we were heading back and I turned to my buddy i'm like Any chance you think that that was the sushi place is still open?

He goes you want to go back? I'm like absolutely Yeah I was willing to go twice in one night.

It was that good So you'll have to check it out and give me a report what you think? Okay, that's awesome

So Let's talk about your your other two books that you got out. Yeah. Um, I have one of them on the covenant

One of them's called divergence. Yeah Uh examining jewish christian relations in the early church.

So this really looks at um, this is actually a popular rewrite of my master's thesis

Um, and it's really interesting because it's talking about the first 300 years of the christian faith

What was the relationships like between jews and christians? And one of the reasons I went into that is because First of all,

I love history, but also a lot of these hebrew roots folks when I say well

How are you right and the rest of the church wrong? And they'll they'll invariably bring up all of these.

Um, uh conspiracy theories about a constantine's the boogeyman, of course but all these things about how the how the early church wanted to wanted to cut ties with judaism and wanted to um,

You know start their own thing and they were very hostile and there was a lot of Antisemitism in the early church and so on and so on and you know, i'll ask him things like well

If they wanted to cut ties with the with the with the old testament and the jews Why did they include the entire hebrew bible in the christian canon?

That's an interesting way to try to cut ties You know and also why like andy stanley and just unhitch themselves from the old testament, right?

Exactly. Well, so, you know, you know who was famous for doing this in the second century marcion, right?

And he said not only did he say first of all, he gives the church a bunch of money right and he says

Oh, this is great, you know, and I have some ideas And so what he comes up with his own you think he was actually the first person in history to suggest a canon

A prop, you know a proper canon his canon included not only did it include none of the old testament

It included only 14 of the new testament books and even those were severely edited to get rid of Mentions from the old testament because he had this theory that the god of the old testament was this vindictive like tribal angry god

And jesus was a totally separate god who basically came down, you know from heaven just out of the blue And so this was the basically this is what exactly what many torah keepers think happened in the christian church

And I asked him. Well, what do you think the christian church did to marcion? Did they open, you know accept him with open arms?

No, they they not only Excommunicated him and kicked him out. They gave him all his money back and said we don't want anything to do with this

Because you know they knew they knew that jesus was the promised jewish messiah and that for jesus and the and the new testament authors and the apostles

The old testament the hebrew scriptures that was their whole bible, right? So so this whole idea of of uh, you know corruption historical seeds of corruption

I'm, not saying that everything was nice and pretty but this idea that there was some sort of Anti -semitism anti -jewishness that led to theological distortion in the church is just it's just false

Yeah And and when we have these groups That try to rewrite history

Yeah, we have a we have a group today that's called the democrats. They do the same thing.

Um, You know, but it really goes back to if you read the book 1984, right?

What does he say there that those who control the past control the future? So if you can rewrite history, then you can make up what we're doing today

Yeah, I mean that's what the nazis did they made up the arian race and the whole history of this perfect race of people

Just made it up Yeah today. Yeah, but but so many groups do that to try to rewrite history and and if you have to look

Any group that has to be dishonest with history to make their argument has already lost their argument.

I agree Yeah, 100. I mean that's it's ridiculous and and the interesting thing is and it's sad to me and frustrating but the internet has

Is like poured gasoline on that whole thing You know, I think I think the reason for that is because some of the kooks that are out there

Would like people that would come to church and they want to teach kooky theology No one's going to let them.

Yeah in the church because there's there's pastors They're they're like gatekeepers to to that and so that prevents it but on the internet there

It's a no holds barred. So any kook can put out a channel and there's other kooks that are kind of go

Hey, yeah, I agree with the same thing and they get together I mean the the flat earth Oh my gosh, right.

There's a lot of flat earthers in torah keeping it's it's insane. Yeah. Well I joked

The first time that we had someone come on the show about flat earth and argue I I was joking and said it was probably some something that some atheist started just to try to are you know to to show how gullible christians are

It turns out I wasn't that far from being off. I guess the guy who started the flat earth society was an agnostic

But he argued he tried to argue from the bible Wow, he was arguing that the christian bible teaches this and he would argue for it

Now you say well, why would he can why would he do such a thing? Because the guy has made millions and millions of dollars from this.

Wow, which is really Sickening to think about but yeah, it is you know yeah, one of the big problems with Conspiracy theories in general and this is probably just a professor in me speaking but Reason they catch on in my opinion is because critical thinking is a lost skill

It just i'm speaking in broad terms, of course, but very often people will

Read something that you know stirs them up And just want to agree with it. So they do they don't even critically think about could that be true?

Could it not be true? It's one of the things that that we teach in one of my classes intro to biblical worldview and it's about that sort of thing objective truth versus subjective truth and how do we test things and how do we think critically and not only that but when you apply that to the bible, we also have in my opinion a dearth of Biblical literacy.

It's one of the big things that my ministry is trying to do this is why we do these apologetic bible studies because you can't just as an apologist you can't just um

Say that's wrong and and throw it out You know, I call it the puppy principle where you've got a puppy and he's chewing on your shoe

You take away the shoe, but then you give him a proper toy to chew on So it's the same concept with theology you show why this isn't true why the bible doesn't support this

But also let's look at what the bible does say about this issue So you got both sides of it and between critical thinking and biblical literacy.

It's like it's like a breeding ground for for conspiracies Yeah, well i've always said that the reason critical thinking had to be taken out of the public school system is

I argue You can't teach evolution and critical thinking at the same time Because if you apply

Yeah, if you apply critical thinking you realize evolution Doesn't make sense right and now they've expanded that to I mean now you can't even you talk about critical thinking in public school

What's a boy and a girl? We can't even define that right? And they want to tell us they're the smart ones yeah, uh -huh

So tell us about your third book that you have out And I didn't grab a copy of it. It's called what god has made clean.

It's a it's a short book, but it's very specifically about Why christians are not Required to eat kosher food.

And so what I used I used a a popular hebrew roots or whatever he would call himself torahist teacher

Uh as the foil because I don't like to make stuff up. I don't like to straw man arguments, right? So i'm using real arguments and in in several cases.

I I steel man those arguments by saying well He he kind of said it this way this way would actually make his point stronger and yet it's still wrong

So we go through all the popular, uh the popular, you know passages, you know mark 7 19

Thus he made all foods clean You got acts 10 peter's vision Of the sheet with the animals was that about animals was that about gentiles?

And so we kind of go through all that stuff and talk about Also the bigger purpose Why did god select a certain amount of animals and those particular animals as off limits or unclean?

And just look at it from a biblical theology perspective and it's it's been pretty popular because it's so It's it's pretty easy to read.

It's a small book, but it's but it's on a topic that a lot of people are confused about yeah, you know you bring up the axe passage, which is

A passage that so many will go and say that was when Christ declared the foods clean is

You know to peter and yet If you actually look at that, it's not about the food.

It's as you mentioned about the jewish gentile distinction And he's telling peter it's okay to go to a gentile house and he uses the the vision of the food well

The the reality is he already declared it clean before that right the the only reason that that That imagery of the food coming down makes sense for peter is because it was already declared clean

Well, it's also because peter understood the connection between food and and people back in the torah

You know when god said keep yourself separate don't eat these things And so there's this whole

You know, it was this whole sense of you're set apart for me God said and now we have that we have a whole new distinction in the new covenant that we don't need the food laws or the circumcision laws to show

The the set apartness anymore. Yeah, and i'm not sure Actually your your denominational background.

Are you you? You baptist presbyterian. I forget. Yeah, uh, I I'm a I was raised lutheran

And then for the last 20 years i've been non -denominational with a lowercase baptist in the corner. Yeah.

Yeah Okay, that's yeah And then just just lately we i've gone back to my lutheran roots.

Okay, I usually that's where i'm coming from I say baptistic, but so so as as it because presbyterians they'll they'll

Kind of divide and actually reform baptists will define Uh the laws into a ceremonial civil and moral right and and i've always said well where give me that list

Like in scripture, which ones are which because from a jewish perspective? As you just said

I I define the laws differently. I def I see the laws that are universal for all people everywhere

Thou shall not lie that shall not steal things like that, right? That are expected from both jewish people and gentiles back in in the day

But then I see laws that are for israel and then laws for the church Now the laws for israel when we talk about like the food and all

In judaism, we refer to those as holiness laws, right? What holiness means is to keep us separate?

So these laws that we have are to keep us separate from the nations now unless christians are going to say We don't need to keep holy anymore

We don't need to be separated from the world anymore right, so now all of a sudden they have to you know, but you brought up you mentioned in passing and I I wanted to highlight it because It's it shows the the amount of study you've done that you just breeze over things that so many people miss

But you mentioned the mark chapter 7 verse 19 Right, and this is where Jesus declared

All foods clean. That's exactly actually what it says the context starting in verse, uh, 18

Right, so he he's talking to his disciples Uh, you know, they're they're asking questions and he says to them

Are you so lacking in understanding? Also, do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him

And they were talking about the the laws of how to how to you know Clean your hands before eating and you know, it's cleanliness laws he says uh from but he says because It does not go into his heart, but into his stomach

And eliminated thus he declared all foods clean

So at that point he declared the foods What we would call, you know kosher or non -kosher.

They were all kosher all at that point yeah, this is pretty early in his ministry in in mark 7, so it's

Matthew 15 has a version of that same Interaction and that one I love because it says the pharisees were offended

It shows that they understood what he meant Yeah, you know that I think it was peter that said explain it to us

Did you know that the pharisees are offended by what you just said kind of thing? and so there's You get so much

Uh, there's so many theories and approaches and and reinterpretations of that passage which is which is why it sparked that whole concept of um

That whole concept for that book was sparked largely from the mark 719. I actually in the book

I have pictures of the of the greek uh Manuscripts to show where that phrase is because a lot of people deny they say well

It's in parentheses that was added to the manuscript by some by some scribe later on You know, and so I actually go well no it's in it's in the early manuscripts, you know

Yeah, if if people don't understand the early manuscripts both hebrew and greek did not have punctuation period

Of course Battery, I gotta i'll be right back. I gotta plug in. Okay.

All right plug in i'll explain this so so what we will we have to understand is that We don't have punctuation in the scriptures until about You know 6 700 a .d.

Is when it starts so Whenever people make an argument over punctuation

They're not making argument from the original language I believe andrew punctuation was introduced

In the manuscripts when they started introducing the minuscule text. Yeah the magiscule text

Correct. There we go. Yeah, so punctuation. It's interesting in that manuscript I have it's just Unending blocks, correct?

Yeah, but in some of the manuscripts for that particular line um It's kind of set off by a mark

Which is interesting so they so it if if you read through that, uh, that whole interaction

Jesus is talking jesus is talking and then you have this The reason it's in parentheses thus he declared all foods clean

And the reason it's set off In the greek manuscripts is to show well, this was this was mark's commentary on what jesus just said

It wasn't the words of jesus so that but but Some english translations put it in parentheses for that reason to say nope.

This isn't the words of jesus. This is mark commenting Um, and so that's what throw and people see those parentheses and they get them all wrong, you know

Yeah, you know for folks who don't do textual criticism You know, you mentioned okay in some manuscripts.

It's off to the side We see this in in the greek manuscripts. Remember this is a time before word processors

I know some of you can't conceive of that, but there was a time even in my generation

Where you had to write everything out before even electric typewriters and so And people are going on electric what?

So What people would do is when you're copying a long thing there are times remember

No punctuation. It's just letter letter letter letter to all together. If you look at the hebrew there, there's no spaces even

Right. Yeah, exactly So you don't have any you where's a word start and end you didn't have that So what would happen sometimes is someone would copy writing something and miss something so they would draw a line

We do this today if you're writing something out you draw a line To where that should be and you write it in the margin or you write it above Yeah, okay, you put a little carrot and write what should be there.

So it's like oh this is what was supposed to be there but missing And people do that today

So You know, this is what why we see that it's not as as some people try to claim.

Oh Someone added something to the bible They they put it in the margins drew a line.

That's their own private notes that they added in now We do have times when that happened And there's ways of of looking at we try to get back to the earliest copies we can get if the earliest copy

Has it in the side that's written in? Maybe it was someone's personal notes that made its way in right when the earliest copies have this in there

And then we see one that has it on the side. We realized someone was making a copy It was in earlier than that and then they wrote it in Yeah, but people don't understand how

How that transmission process worked that i'm actually going to post a link here um in the in the

There we go to two of my videos. I'm reviewing this guy named mani judah It hit the theory that some scribe went and changed it somewhere completely misses

Historically how we got our copies of the bible in our manuscripts. So in order for someone to go. Ooh i'm gonna say

All food is clean and i'm just gonna put that in there because I really like my bacon Which is honestly what some people will say you just don't want to give up your ham and your bacon

So i'm going to put that in there think about what they would have to do This person would that would need to go.

Okay, i'm gonna You know, here's my original i'm and i'm making my own version of this manuscript

I'm going to you know, move everything over put it in here. Great. That all seems fine. I'm going to try to sell it He's going to have to now travel the world and go to all the monasteries and the churches

And all these different places who also have copies of that manuscript Right and he's going to have to make exact copies

Duplicates with his extra line in there and somehow sneak it in with no one ever noticing across Thousands of copies that we have right?

Otherwise people are going to immediately start noticing. So the whole concept that there was some

Nefarious editing going on. It just doesn't stand up to to You know the historical process that actually happened

Yeah, and text me that text me those links so I could put it in the show notes of the podcast for folks

So it'll be easier. I've got a question real quick about what you were saying Someone going in making a text change like that It sounds like that person is trying to make an argument similar to what bart ehrman would make about Almost like the telephone game where you have one line of transmission rather than realizing you have multiple lines of transmission

Right, exactly. That's that's a great analogy. Yep, and we have things we have things like the dead sea scrolls that Blew your mind and said oh my gosh, all the jewish scribes were

Unbelievably accurate. Yes, you know, and so we we also have these so here's what happens is

I don't want to get too nerdy. So feel free to shut me down, but you've got the the king james bible

Right, which is based on the textus receptus, which is the best greek manuscript they had at the time

And when I say at the time I mean around the year 1600 this is 400 something years ago

They they used the textus receptus. It had all the best stuff they could get and they made a beautiful beautiful translation

Now some people have stuck with that and you i'm sure you've met your share of king james only folks.

Yeah, but along the way Since that happened. We've found thousands of other manuscripts older Than what they had what the king james folks had so we're finding manuscripts.

I mean thousands. I'm not even exaggerating I think there's 5 000 something Manuscripts of the new testament about about 9 000 now nine

Yeah, so so you're finding all of these and they're dated earlier and earlier and closer and closer to the original composition

You know theoretically meaning they they they're more likely more accurate less less telephone game stuff, right?

So so now we have the the the Um What's it called the new testamentum greech?

Uh, that is the new I think they're on the 28th version right now, so they're constantly updating

And drew pulls it up right there. Yeah, there you go. Thank you. Yeah, and so Now we have and this i'm this actually plays out a lot in in torah keeping circles, especially king james only

Because if you look at mark 719 in the king james version

It says something about thus purging all meats It doesn't say thus.

He declared all foods clean and so The way the king james does it they actually quote they they put that little extra

That little extra uh saying thus he thus the you know, thus purging all meat. It says it says uh, because it enter into Uh enter sorry because it entereth not into his heart

But into the belly and goeth out into the drought purging all meats, yeah so notice how

When you read that they're actually attributing Those words to the to the statement or the speech that jesus is giving they're putting those words in jesus's mouth

Now the newer manuscripts that we've discovered many of them, uh, the codex cyanidicus for example, uh

Predates everything that the king james folks had and now that's where they start seeing that phrase set off and they started realizing wait a second because If you know greek and i'm just a i'm just a beginner

I'm, not nothing close to an expert But if you know greek there are so many different ways That you can put together a sentence and like you said if there's no punctuation

We now need to say well based on the case endings Which what's the subject and what's the object the classic example for greek for those who don't know it would be

In english we could say john kicked the ball We but if we said the ball kicked john in english, that means something totally different In greek, it doesn't matter in to a degree.

It doesn't matter what order the words are in It's the case endings that determine it so When you start looking at things like thus he declared all foods clean the reason that it's different in the in the what

I call The newer or the and in my opinion the more accurate manuscripts is because we began to realize with with textual

Uh, you know the little line that set it off or in some cases as you mentioned notes in the margins

People started to be able to realize that wait, this was always this way and somewhere along the line people merged mark's commentary into jesus's words and so In my opinion, this is this is how

I read it that they corrected that issue, which is not corrected in the king james Yeah, and in the new king james, so the king james bible contains no footnotes really that barely any

In the in the new king james version they at least admit it They say hey in the other manuscript they call it the nu

Uh that in the nu manuscript. This is actually this text is actually set off by a line.

So so you can trace that stuff, but not if you're a conspiracy theorist that just You know those pesky things called facts get in the way

Yeah, well and and you know just for folks if if this seems well this is

Getting too much. This is an area called text criticism if it's seeming like too much Let me just i'll recommend getting my book.

What do we believe chapter two? deals with this whole thing it addresses as drew mentioned the the

Argument that bart ehrman and others make about the telephone game What we have in the bible is not the telephone game.

The telephone game is audible You you know, I tell drew something drew tells robert something robert tells you what he heard the different the problem is

Whatever I tell drew because drew's a troublemaker. He's purposely going to say something different now

There's no way for robert to verify What he heard from drew is what drew heard from me

Why because it's only going from one to the other to the other right in a written source

We can compare them We can see what if I write it and I give it to drew

He makes a copy and gives it to robert robert can look at both copies and see

Drew lost something in in the translation or in Yeah, and even more than that I think drew you were alluding to it is the fact that that what you just described was a linear one -to -one

But the bible translations aren't like that. In fact many times you they would have a room full of Six or eight or ten scribes and one person standing up reading

And they're all at the same time making their copies So it's a it's a one -to -many sort of situation where again

You can you can compare and and actually get back to even bart ehrman admits That the new testament text we have is over 98 accurate to what it actually said in the original

Autographs that we don't have anymore So even ehrman will admit the accuracy of this sort of textual criticism

Yeah I mean given his background and uh that he was bruce metzger's final, uh, phd student, it's like Well, he kind of has to at this point like there's some things you just can't get away from Yeah, well, yeah and and to his credit he he has some scholarly standards so he doesn't want to just Make stuff up like maybe perhaps some political parties might do just make it up out of thin air to To put themselves in a better light.

He's actually got some scruples about that and I and I respect that so I the way I tell people if you're going to read bart ehrman is

When bart ehrman is writing at a scholarly level and and you know sourcing his work

You could pretty much trust it and when he's writing for the masses He'll state things that are true

But then put them into a totally different context. Yeah, so that he could say what he knows

Is isn't supported so when he when he cites his work, it's pretty good when he doesn't cite his work

He's usually making it up. Yeah. I mean, yeah, his bias is showing quite a bit obviously

Yeah, his doubt and his skepticism and all that right now I I would push back on you a little bit robert when you say that the texas receptus was the best they had at the time because that that time period would be really short because What we have at the time was erasmus was there were others who were putting out greek manuscripts

And because paper and things are so expensive He knew first to print wins

So there actually were other greek manuscripts that he did not

Include when he was putting texas receptus together. He didn't use because that would have taken more time.

Yeah And so had he done that? Because others did it but the texas receptus was the first one out and in fact

To what to son you were kind of saying with the different translations and all There's passages we have in the texas receptus

That people knew from the latin volgate And when he put the first one out because it wasn't in the manuscripts

It made it in the latin volgate. He actually translated the latin volgate parts of revelation from the latin

Into greek. Oh, really? I don't know that to the texas receptus. Yeah the last uh, so you see it in the book of revelation because he didn't have a

Manuscript for revelation what he had was a commentary that he borrowed and so he extrapolated

The greek from the commentary except the last couple of pages because the pages had fallen out

So that so he went back to volgate and then back translated from latin into greek and come a

Came away with just phrases that no one had ever seen before Yeah, wow. I wasn't aware of that.

Yes There's a really good book called god's secretaries if you guys if you're into history it's all about the making of the adam

Nichols, okay It's all about the writing of the of the king james bible how they how they set up their committees

How brilliant these guys were like fluent in 12 or 15 languages Um, it really gave me some new respect and just the literary beauty especially considering the time it came out

It was obviously the king james version was world changing um so so I have more respect from it for it that way, but also like you're talking about there's a number of those little

Strange situations. Yeah, that's also where we got the comma. Yohannam as well um

It it just It appeared in no greek manuscript and all of a sudden, uh, and and erasmus was pushed

Well, why didn't you include the trinitarian formula? And he said well, there's no manuscript that actually has it and then all of a sudden

One appears and He put he put it in but he said he made a note. He said

I don't believe this is true But i'm putting this in under protest Okay, yeah

Disagree and commit So, you know one of the things that you mentioned and and for peal to understand

I've got a bow out just because it's past the time it's time for you to go take care of your children That's right.

So, all right Baby in the house a little little baby Little little baby, that's right

And that little baby she's about to steal your my pillow, you know that well he but yeah, he's he that's right

Yeah, we're yeah all boys remember all boys. Um, and and do they all have a my pillow have they all

Stolen your my pillow. That's that's the question. So my They have it. It's really my oldest now.

So he's when he wants to go to bed Um, he starts out in our bed

And so I have to go put him to sleep in our bed And he always takes my he lays on my pillow before I can get there

And then when I when it's time for me to pick him up and carry him into his room He's still holding on to my pillow and so it just makes his way into his bedroom with it

So at this point I have no pillow. So folks don't be like drew Go out to mypillow .com

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So If you ever thought about getting one now would be the time go to my wife and I have one

Yeah, you have one. Yeah, my wife and I both. Yeah, aren't they great? They're great It's weird because for me it wasn't like this eureka level of comfort

I I like I I don't know what I expected when I put my head on it But all of a sudden my sleep improved.

Yes crazy. Yeah No, that's what happens and so use use the promo code sfe it stands for striving fraternity

That will not only get you all your discounts But let them know that you heard about them from us So they'll keep supporting us and I travel with mine.

So I I love mine so much I have the one that stays here at home and then because I actually made the mistake of And this is why if you ever go to my hotel room, you'll see

I have a flowery pillowcase At least you start to make fun of it The purpose is because I had a white pillowcase and I left my my pillow in the hotel

So some hotel has a very nice pillow there And so my wife now gives me a flowery pillowcase so that I don't leave it behind So so but I travel with I have one that I stays home for that reason in case

I forget it But I have a travel one You know for christmas this year instead of toys.

My kids are just going to get pillows I think that's I think that would make peace in your house the gift that keeps on giving you know, but For robert who already knows the value of a good my pillow

Even though he probably bought it before he knew about the promo code sfe Right where you can go and get another one

Well, if you don't get a new one, I mean they got they got I got the slippers on right now But you got the slippers you got robes you got towels

Um, I i'll tell you right now if you really want to improve your sleep robert and you haven't tried this one the three inch mattress topper

I I absolutely love that I I I had the sleep number bed and thought it was the best ever I added the three inch mattress topper on top of it

Now, I don't think that bed was good enough by itself That made a huge difference.

We had a guest that was on my wrap report. He said He was weighing between buying a whole new bed

Which would have cost several hundred dollars like he was looking at spending six seven hundred dollars for a bed He just bought the mattress topper and he said it was like getting a brand new bed so Uh, so you can get that with promo code sfe, but since you already have the pillow

Robert you probably need a good cup of coffee to wake up in the morning And and to do so there you go and you need to start drinking squirrelly joe's coffee though Because not only do you get a really good tasting coffee.

You're also supporting a christian family I actually got to meet squirrelly joe at uh fight laugh feast this past weekend

Uh, and so we were drinking There is some nice squirrelly joe's coffee. Uh, I I think

I was drinking integrity uh all weekend long So he had different ones out there.

He's I love the names he's got for him, but uh integrity is one of my favorites So he had that there but you can get uh, 20 off your first offer

You just go to striving for training .org slash coffee Use the promo code sfe on your first order to get 20 off And I will say that if you keep going to striving for training coffee

That is the way he knows that you found out about him from us So keep going there when you want to reorder your coffee

Which drew needs to get a lot of the coffee because well, he's got a baby in the house Oh, yeah, and so how does it work?

Does is it like you drink the flavor that you're lacking, right? So if i'm lacking like integrity,

I drink integrity. Well, what do you need? The answer to that is on my most recent rap report podcast actually not the most recent last week's

The one that dropped last week, uh, because there I I asked the question. Are you drinking enough coffee?

We had squirrelly joe on we talked about how he makes the coffee Uh, which was really fascinating. I learned a lot more about coffee

But he um, he did talk about the fact that he has found it funny that he supplies conferences with with coffee

That's a ministry that they do And I can attest to the fact that i've been at several conferences

Where as speakers we get a free bag of coffee and there is lots of discussion on whether you're getting

Integrity because you need it or have it I was just gonna say I see they have one on here called wisdom and I need that so yeah

The only one I I refuse to to drink there is honesty Because it's decaf because it's decaf and i've told you that's just not honest of you

And the other one is responsibility, which is half caffeinated half decaf and I just don't think that's very responsible

You know But but he has said the reason he's given them these names I'll just i'll leave it this way go listen to the rap report

Episode that we did on coffee if you go back to go to rap report rapid two p's rap report .org

Scroll down to see the where I asked the question about coffee. It's it's in the in the show notes or in the title

Uh, and i'll let you figure out why he said he he he did that it was kind of a slap down I'll let you guys decide if it was a backhanded compliment or not in his answer

Uh to me on on the names because it it to me. It seemed like it was a little bit of a slap down Uh in his answer just say it

But all right guys, it was uh, nice to hang out with you for a little bit. Um But i've got to go.

Yeah talk to you I hope to see you So let's get to some of the the things that drew has starred here, uh for us

I'm, just going to go from the top down Uh, and after that i'm going to have to start paying attention to the comments as well

So that's the thing what drew's here. We we have that. Uh, so bradley says. Yep. It's so subtle but Uh off a degree.

So thank you for your work I think I think he was referring to Some of the hebrews early on when you're talking about the hebrew israelites and the the hebrews movement

Well, I tell you what and thanks bradley I appreciate that that that you're you're exactly right that it can be so subtle because you're talking to someone that reads the same bible

Uses the same terminology says they follow jesus speaks like a brother in christ

But then you start hearing some kind of weird stuff And it becomes very subtle and honestly, that's why a lot of people get pulled into it

Uh because it because it's so subtle which you know, every time I every time I Think about the way that this happens

It reminds me of the screw tape letters by c .s lewis, right? Where where the demon the demon in charge is telling the young demon?

Hey, if you want to mislead christians don't go crazy Just get them off course by a little bit get them to be comfortable with something else other than you know

Following god or get them to trust just a little bit in something else So this is what we see a lot in hebrew roots as well

I think if i'm honest, I think even to the point where some of the folks following Don't realize they missed the fact that they wandered off the path and so a number of folks

I have no idea on the percentages, but will Quickly come to realize the error of their ways and come back.

I get messages all the time from people saying. Oh, thank you I don't know how I believe that I was in it for six months or eight months or something, you know and came back but some people

It's like it's like the analogy I use in toryism is if you Aim your gun and the barrel of your gun is off by the tiniest fraction of an inch

You're going to miss the target downrange by a mile. And so this is how their theology works as well

Yeah, and this is something that I I mean I've said for years. No one wakes up and says

I want to be a heretic when I grow up, right? Right, it it starts I think what happens is the lies people i've seen like with flat earth and and things

People Are like how could people believe this? And so they start looking at it really to look to refute it

But they they get so involved in it throw themselves in it so much that they're hearing the arguments over and over and over And the arguments start to make sense

Yeah, and so what ends up happening is they they they

By hearing it over and over They start to think oh this this actually has some validity to it

Yeah, right Slowly they start to um

Buy into it. Okay So that's the thing that you have to recognize It's a slow progression

It is. Yeah, it is a slow and the other thing too is that Once you've gone out there and made a public declaration and defended your views

It's very hard to change your mind and admit that you're wrong and and you know turn back Right So let me put i'm going to put these up just so you see some some people that enjoy your work

Willie is saying I really enjoy listening to your channel um we had

Let's see. So there was I know there was another one that Let's see.

Ah, here we go. Uh d says Uh, I appreciate rob's work in regards to hebrew roots movement really good stuff

Man god is so good. I mean this is amazing the fact that I was kind of Stumbled into this thing and god knew what he was doing, you know

And then there's so so many folks out there who are being blessed by the work we're doing That's what it's all about right?

It's all about helping the body of christ Uh see god and that's really I mean you're an apologist, you know

The goal of apologetics is really to clear away the the falsehoods and the myths and and let people see

Christ as he is and god as he really is as the bible shows us and then from there the holy spirit does all the work

Right. So our job is to just pull down those those arguments that that Try to raise themselves against god

Yeah And uh, I I should I should have said this earlier by now and I know we got someone backstage who's got some

Questions i've been waiting to see his camera at least to see that it's not showing that he's got an image yet I know he put the question in the private chat.

So if you're ready to come in may put yourself on camera so that I know um and so There we go.

So, uh folks i'll let you know that. Um If you want to if you like what you're hearing so far, please share this

On social media so others know about it because I got I can guarantee pretty much that any one of you listening has a friend

Whether you realize it or not. You have a friend that is taught that is either in the hebrew roots

Know someone in hebrew roots or starting to investigate. Hebrew roots. I say that because it just seems everybody is is

Somehow I I get a lot of questions because i'm jewish That's why I get so many questions about this because i'm an israelite that people ask me about it uh, and I I usually just Uh, and and perhaps can attest to this.

Uh, the first thing that I do In case you didn't know this rob Whenever anyone asks me about hebrew roots.

The first thing I do is I say, okay go get the book torah ism Oh before before you even talk to me

Go get that book read it and and there won't be any need to ask me any more questions I appreciate it

Yeah, especially the second edition covers a lot more stuff, but there's even still things that come up, you know the better mouth trap thing so, oh, uh

Here here someone's busting on you saying that you're returning to lutheranism, I guess maybe simon says luther did not have a my pillow

Do you know that? How do you know? All right. Let me bring brad in here.

Brad has a question for us Uh out of deuteronomy. So brad go ahead.

Let me look that passage up hear me. Okay, andrew. Yes Okay, great. Yeah, so my question was i'm trying to make sense of um

Um, so um just reading through it, um, I think my question was in regards to Um, I guess the punishment that was dealt out to the man

Uh, or to the um, the husband and then the I guess would be the husband and the wife um so I guess i'm just curious because Um, I think it's a longer passage.

So let me put it up on screen. Yeah And that way we could read it let me remove the banner starting at 13 you're saying sure

Maybe if you read from 13 to 21, and then I can ask you the question. Maybe that's probably a little bit easier

Okay, so read from 13 to 21 is that that's what I was going to do Um, so it says here

Uh, do you want to read it robert or you want me to i'm still trying to pull it up Okay. All right. I'll read so this is in new american standard, but uh,

Because it's longer I figured i'd put it up on screen so everyone can can see Uh, it says it and by the way,

I I I'll have to explain if you see the letter the words in blue Uh, that's just the way that I do my bible in logos.

That means that it It is a definitive article. That's just what it's just so I can look at it immediately know what's the things are definitive articles.

So uh, so, uh, this is deuteronomy Chapter 22 verse starting in verse 30 13 to 21

If any man takes a wife And goes into her And then turns against her and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her and says

I I took this woman, but when I came near her I did not find her a virgin

Then the girl's father and her mother Shall take the bra Take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate

The girls the girl's father shall say to the elders. I gave my daughter to this man for a wife

But he turned against her and behold He has charged her with shameful deeds saying

I do not find your daughter a virgin But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity

And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city so the elders of the city shall take the man

And chastise him and chased him And they shall find him uh

Find him a hundred shekels of silver and give Give it to the girl's father because he publicly defamed a virgin of israel

And she shall remain his wife. He cannot divorce her all his days But if this charge is true that girl that the girl was

Uh found not a virgin Then she uh, they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house

And the men of the city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in israel

By playing the harlot of the father's house thus you shall purge the sin the evil

From among you. All right, so that's the passage and what is your question? my question is um, why wasn't the man put to death for um, basically

Or as far as if he made a false accusation as and he You know was chastised.

Why why wasn't the man given the center basically the punishment that was dealt to? um, you know to his wife,

I guess that's my question as far as um, It's in regards to you know with deuteronomy and in the eye for eye, you know being you know equal punishment

Does that make sense as far as so? Yeah, it makes it makes sense. Let me do a little correcting.

So I for I Is the extent of the law? Okay, not the demand of the law

There's the outer limits. Yeah the outer limits. Yeah, it's a good way of saying but There is a law that comes into play here

Okay, and it would take me a bit to find it because it should be in I believe leviticus But the the jewish law states that if you try to charge someone

With a crime or or with something falsely. Yes, then you must pay the punishment that they were owed

Yes, right so my I guess that was kind of what I was was is that if she if he's falsely accusing her and he knows that um

Morris that punishment would be death Would that not also apply to him as well as is that that's kind of my question in a nutshell

If he's falsely accusing her Yes, and the law would say that he is to be put to death if that's what the charge is.

So if the charge is Death for her and he's found false Then he would be put to death now

That may not be listed here. We have that elsewhere as part of the the law okay,

I guess that was my question as far as when they said, you know, behold, um, uh when they say, uh um basically where it's where he's proven that the um that She was a virgin and they chastise him did they

Not act accordingly, right or I guess I guess i'm just confused as to why you know, they the elders

Chastised him and fined him as opposed to killing her as opposed to killing him or stoning him Well It doesn't say that they won't stone him because that's what the law would demand not here

The the they're they're finding them ahead of time To give that money to the to the girl's father

Okay, if he's stoned to death You know, then she remarries with all his possessions.

Well, or the kids would have if they have they wouldn't have Points to take the man in this situation

Was actually ended up being stoned to death I I would assume that I mean that would be the law

If you falsely if you falsely Yes, uh charge someone I wish this was the law in america. We would have a lot better I agree and I agree with that for sure.

I just that was my confusion was just seeing that um and seeing you know the false accusation

And so are you were you seeing that the woman faced death and the and the man just faced a fine

Exactly, and I was just confused as to why he You know, you know um

If he would have known like, you know where it says, you know, he turned to get he turns against her um,

I would imagine he would have full well known that he was basically, you know, he would have known that if He's basically trying to have her

I guess But I guess put to death. I mean knowing that consequence and Knowing that if he's false, he should be he would face the same punishment, but As opposed to being just chastised and fined

Yeah, because I mean it does say here right in the in the context that she's going to remain his wife

And he can't divorce her all his days, which would lead you to believe that he can he could continue to live

Right. So the law would say that he he would have to have his life taken so It may be an issue where there's some

You know that maybe she has say in this or the or the the father has say in what the punishment will be

But this is yeah, I think there's also These are really difficult um ancient societal

Constructs to apply or to think about through our modern minds and becomes difficult. One of the things

I think that's probably at play here too is the idea that women back then were not really able to um

To to support themselves, right? Yeah. So without a man, they're they're lost Forever.

So instead of killing the the husband and saying well you you've in you know Now the death penalty and now the woman is without protection and without provision

Instead well, you know what now you can never divorce her and you're gonna pay a fine and you're gonna be publicly chastised and shamed and it was

Remember, this was a very severe honor shame culture even going all the way up into the new testament so I think that's what's going on there because This is so amazing to me.

Some of these are so Even in leviticus some of the stuff gets so what we might just call weird

I mean, it's there's some strange laws But in my opinion when you when you kind of peel the layers back you start to see well wait this is about This is about the sanctity of sex of sexual activity.

This is about kindness You know those sorts of things responsibility is basically saying there is no sex without responsibility

It's such a thing does not exist in god's universe. Yeah One thing I would recommend if you haven't listened to it.

There's a fabulous podcast called 40 minutes in the old testament With chad bird and a couple of one other guy at least

And they go through some of these and they really break them down quite well So I would recommend looking for their episode on this particular and they're way past the torah

They're in the they're deep into the old testament now What's that called? 40 minutes in the old testament

So you might gather from that that each episode is about 40 minutes long Okay. Yeah and he's a he's a hebrew scholar, uh chad is and I i've

I learned so much from about leviticus from that even after i've studied all kinds of commentaries.

It's really interesting Yeah, no, it sounds really good. Yeah, I think yeah,

I guess like I said my Just initially I guess the initial, you know, my initial reaction was seeing was that Was it?

Was it an equal? you know Equal justice for what was done

I guess One of the things you have to understand with this Uh, you know robert just mentioned a major part of it is and you'll see this when

In leviticus where someone, you know, jewish guy is a slave after seven years. He's going to be allowed to go free

But if he marries someone he and he can either be a slave for life or he can leave his wife there

And his children as slaves and he can go free And people go that oh, so, you know, it's like god is is telling him.

He's got a divorcer What it is is that the the master has a responsibility So we don't think about this in american culture because we don't think about our responsibility to others

We only think our responsibility to ourself Yeah, and that's why these passengers are so hard to understand the reason the master the master has a responsibility to care for The the that white the slave's wife and children

And so the the whole idea there is that you have this guy who's he can't handle his finances.

That's how he became a slave And so you you the law is saying hey because you've already proven yourself that you're not responsible with money

This master doesn't put this woman and children into this guy's care Because he's not responsible so here what you have is a case where You know let's back up before you know, like everything robert said

I would agree with and would have said but Back up and say well, why would the guy

Make this claim in the first place It's their wedding night and so it's it's something that happened in that on that wedding night in that bedroom that He wasn't satisfied with And he makes this claim

Right. Yeah, you mean her and so what is he what's he looking to do? He's looking to divorce her find a way out of this marriage and go marry someone else.

But now she's She's now marked As as someone who is not a virgin

And it's going to be very hard for her to remarry and she's going to have no way to care for herself Now that responsibility is going to be on the father to care for her for the rest of her days and so The the the charge on him is now that he can't marry anyone else

He has to care for her and take care of her Because he shamed her Yeah, that's a great point about the communal responsibility we we miss that a lot in especially in america we're so ruggedly individualist

You know, and I think that's a big cultural disconnect from especially the the old testament the torah But even even first century it was it's a very communal culture, you know right, so so kind of going back to what you said andrew about as far as the um, you know with the false with you know, false accusation and basically whatever was accused of so like this

Trying to or just trying to Mesh the two and stuff we're saying that doesn't necessarily this is maybe a different um case of that I would say that either could be

I mean the law is clear on what to do when you bring a charge to You know to the court with someone.

Yeah, right And so could that be in play? Yes, I I think they could charge that Um the the the father, you know would have the right to to make that charge so But in this

I think so. So what you see there Is you have a minimum of what he must do?

You know just like we said, you know As robert said that you know the the eye for the eye Is kind of the maximum And I forget what word you use now and it was outer limits.

I think our limits. Yeah So so if that's the outer limits this is now, you know, like a minimum

I would say okay. So there's Are you saying that there is actually there can be?

flexibility depending on the person or is it like I guess or in the situation or I mean the only thing

I would think and and is It could be an issue of this is not taken to the court.

He's bringing her to the father Versus the court maybe that would have play into it. I see.

Um, yeah I think there was flexibility too I mean we see that with with moses and and having to appoint the 70 elders and people continually coming with questions and they're not sure

You know what to do so they have to seek the lord and and I think a lot of times they've got They've got uh, like if you look at all of the laws

Uh, there's so many things missing. There's so many specific case details That aren't addressed so they needed to use their best judgment and say okay

Well based on this the spirit so to speak of the torah what god values. What do we do in this situation?

Yeah Okay, so I hope that helps Yeah. Yeah. No that does.

Yeah. I was just kind of seeking clarification just wanted to make sure that I was not missing or I was if I was missing something or because i'm you know,

I just Reading it I just needed some clarification on it just to make sure what if I was what

I was reading was correct and um, And understand so yeah. All right. Good. I'll put you backstage.

If you have another question, just let me know in the private chat All right. I'm gonna bring eric in Eric, you have a question for us

Uh, yes, sir. I do have a question Um, it's in regards to uh, uh, dr.

Solberg posted on his community Uh posts, I think it was yesterday um

Where you were talking about hebrews 6 Oh, yeah, I knew that would get some um interests some eyebrows raised

Yeah, um It's it's a passage i've definitely struggled with myself I would just want to know what your answer and i'm not trying to like do a gotcha thing

But in regards to that, I understand your argument But what would you say to hebrews 3 14 where it says we've only come to share in christ if indeed

We hold our confidence Firm to the end Yeah, so so robert if you could for folks like myself who didn't read the the blog article, uh, and eric i'm just going to mute you

Uh, just because there's some background noise there unmute yourself if you want to uh, come come back in ask more

But uh, if you could just explain the article, uh, what it was actually it was actually a a little post

It wasn't even an article. Let me pull it up and I can read it to you real quick So we all know what we're talking about. Basically it came from we're going through so on my channel.

We've got two Bible study series that are apologetic one was all the way through galatians. That one's done

Uh, the other one is we're going through hebrews. And so this was actually pulled from our our episode we did on hebrews 6

And it's the old once saved always saved so that always gets people talking um, let's see, so the one yesterday was

There's a quote that says hebrews, oops Let me open this up And this is the quote that of mine from that episode

The majority of scholars read the passage of hebrews 6 4 through 6 and we we can read that in a second

As a description of genuine christians It seems unlikely the author would have used all these descriptors if he was merely trying to describe false believers

So let me let me open up hebrews 6 4 through 6 i'll read it.

Uh, and this is in the esv. It says this For it is in pop. Let me actually give you a little context.

So hebrews is the authors writing to jewish believers in jesus who are being tempted to to return to their their the judaism that they were raised in because they're getting all kinds of flack from their jewish brothers and sisters because they believe in jesus

From the romans because christianity was illegal and the the author of hebrews is now saying look

Hold fast to your faith because jesus is superior over everything else You might want to put your faith in right?

and so when we get to this this little he's just starting at the beginning of chapter 5 this Huge description of jesus as as a as a high priest and he interrupts himself

To basically do this little passage that we're a little sidebar passage about holding fast to your faith.

It's really about apostasy so the question is Is it possible to lose your faith?

Is it possible to really? Apostasize for a real for a real christian to walk away. And so this passage says this we're in hebrews 6 verses 4 through 6

The author says for it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and listen to all these descriptors

Who have once been enlightened who have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the holy spirit

And have tasted the goodness of the word of god and the powers of the ages to come And then have fallen away

And this is a weird run on sentence, so basically he's saying for it is impossible for those people who have all these things

To restore them again to repentance Since they are crucifying once again, the son of god to their own harm and holding him up to contempt so the idea is is he so so how do we get around this thing of of um, once saved always saved, you know, jesus says no one can pluck you from my hand and You know,

I mean this is the a really What do they call it sticky wicket as they say over the pond across the pond.

Um, and so the question is First of all, is he describing?

Actual genuine believers, right? Because what's the reformed saying if you believe you'll never your faith will never fail uh,

I can't remember how it goes, but if you If you walk if you believe you'll never walk away from god

If you walk away from god, you never really believed i'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the thing But so the idea is well if that's the case

How can he say it's impossible to restore them again to repentance that that someone would have? Been a real believer fallen away and not he's not only saying they could fall away.

He seems to be saying they can't even be restored So now we have this huge theological

Sticky wicket and we have to say well, what does that mean? Is he maybe not talking about real believers?

Maybe he's talking about False believers people who professed with their mouth, but never really gave their heart to jesus

And and my quote was saying well, look at how would you describe someone who has tasted the heavenly gift shared in the holy spirit?

Tasted the goodness of the word of god It's hard to believe that he would be talking about Inauthentic believers with those kinds of descriptions.

You know what I mean? So my point was that in my Commentary research and my research on the on that passage

It doesn't seem likely that he was talking about people who were didn't quite really believe it seems to me like that He's talking about real christians real believers and so then the question becomes

If they're real believers and they've fallen away, I guess a can they fall away And then b if they have fallen away is he really honestly saying you can't be restored

And so that's that's kind of I just set the table. But so now what was the question? I was saying in regards to how would you line that up?

with hebrews 3 14 where it says you've only come to share in christ if You hold your confidence firm to the end, right?

So it's giving kind of a thing there where it's saying look if you don't hold on all the way to the end You've never come to share it in the first place.

And I think that's where that Once they've always saved thing kind of comes in. Yeah. Yeah, so Forgive me because this might be unsatisfying to you

But as a professor, this is my favorite thing to do in the classroom is to answer a question with a question and They're actually i'll try to make a statement so a couple things bother me or you know ruffle my feathers because I mean

I don't know everything. I don't i'm not perfect and I don't have all the answers And so I I struggle with this a lot myself

So one of the things that I think about in hebrews and the 3 14 is exactly one of those verses

But it's all over hold fast to your faith is kind of his recurring theme Why would he say hold fast to your faith?

Why would paul say finish the race strong? Why why would the new testament? Urge and encourage believers to hold fast and not give up and weary not in good

In in good doing and all these things if it wasn't actually possible For you to turn away for you to give up your your um salvation, right?

And that becomes Okay, very difficult because now you have the question. Well, jesus does say

You know, no one will snatch them from my hand All the all the people the father gives to me.

I will save basically And we hear and then it also calls jesus the author and finisher of our faith as well.

Yes, right exactly. So Is our faith? Do we really have any autonomy or any ability to?

Willfully choose not to follow him once we've been indwelled and sealed by the holy spirit Um, and and i'm just gonna i'll tell you right now.

I don't have a a clean -cut answer for that One of the things can I give you a possible answer that i've heard?

Yeah Um, i've heard it described as that in the hebrews 6 when he's doing that He's actually giving and adopt and what do they call that?

And what is now the now that i'm trying to say it's uh, basically an argument of uh Reductio ad absurdum.

There you go. Then one of those arguments basically saying that You know Christ can only be crucified once so if it was even possible

For you to be able to leave you couldn't come back because they're not going to crucify jesus again, right?

And he's basically What it was described to me is that okay. This is a letter to the hebrews

They're constantly thinking they need to repent and be saved and he's saying no go beyond the elementary teachings

You cannot be lost because even if you could be lost you can't come back So that's why he's saying go on to maturity move past the basics yeah,

I mean There's there's some I think there's some Validity to that i'm actually pulling up a an article so but so Here's the thing

I that I figured out when we were going through it when we were going through this this passage on our on Our channel one of the things that I that I took away that I think is significant is that this whole section

Is really a hypothetical He he's not saying you have fallen away and you can't be restored.

He's basically it's a warning. I mean, there's a there's Five or six exhortations in that in that whole epistle.

He's saying if you fall away Like don't do it because if you do this is the this is the thing that you'll face

You won't be able to be restored to repentance and and what are the reasons for that? we get into that a little bit on that in that episode, but The idea that maybe it is

You know arguing to the point of absurdity For the reason that he's saying look this this is how ridiculous it would be

That if you fell away you you would be crucifying christ a second time and you couldn't come back

So I I see some validity in that approach So let me give you a couple resources as well.

Um first is If you really want to dig into hebrews, I i'd highly recommend

Uh pastor jim osmond from kootenai community church in kootenai, idaho He just finished up preaching through The book of hebrews and does some of the best work that i've heard on it

I've i'm begging him to put it into a commentary. He's yet to take me up on that because he's got too many other books

He's working on Uh another I wrote an article on this passage. I did put it in in the link here

But i'll have it in the show notes for the podcast Version but if you go to strivingforeternity .org

And just type in the search just search, uh hebrews 6, okay, well you got to put in and you'll get a a

A article called. Can you lose your salvation? Okay now I want to kind of give a gloss over this and just I want to just give it

Explain it quickly, but I don't want to read the whole thing before I do. I do want to first With when it comes to can you lose your salvation?

The question becomes when we're when Were our sins paid for and how much were paid?

So if we go to colossians chapter 2 13 and 14, this is what it says when you

Were dead in your trespass transgressions And an answer and the uncircumcision of your flesh

He made you alive together with him Having forgiven us all our transgressions

Okay, so all of them having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of the decrees against us

Which were hostility toward us so great that means all of our sin was paid when well he goes on to say

And he has taken it out of the way having nailed it to the cross so what

I would say is that We can't lose our salvation because to lose our salvation would say that it was all paid at the cross

And then they're not paid Right because it's something we did. Well, if all of our sins were paid at the cross, they were all

Paid before we were born in time yeah, now i'm gonna i'm gonna say and maybe i'm not a professor but i'm gonna do something maybe as unsatisfactory as what rob did but I one of the things when we come to passage

I think one one reason and rather this may answer some of what you were saying you're struggling with but I think some of the times we have to deal with the fact that we think

You know chronologically within time event based thinking where something happens and then another thing happens and so We don't have a complete thinking.

We're not omniscient. We're not eternal but god is and so There's things in the mind of god that he could say with an absoluteness because he knows

Even before it happened so he could say that That my sin was nailed at the cross before it happened

Okay, so to the mind of god, it's a done deal to the mind of andrew I could fall away

Okay, so so that's one thing just that we have to keep in mind This is very important when we talk if you end up getting into the calvinism arminianism debate a lot of the passages people will struggle with is because You know, they want to think about it within Human thinking and they'll take a passage where you know, god will say

Before the foundation of the world, you know, I I elected you before the foundation of the world Well, there was no before anything with god

So when he's saying that he's not speaking in his mind, but for us so he's saying something like hey

This is me for me the the best way of saying you had nothing to do with your salvation so the hebrews 6 passage uh as robert said there's there's five things that are

Mentioned here and I put this in the blog article Uh, you know, can you lose your salvation?

So just go to striving fraternity .org Type in the search hebrews, uh hebrews 6.

It's one of the first articles that came up for me at least um So it mentions once you've been enlightened

Tasted the heavenly gift shared in the holy spirit Tasted the goodness and the word of god and fifthly tasted the powers of the age to come

So these are the things that people will say as robert said He believes that this is speaking to a believer now

There's I end up pointing out that there's three possibilities Of it one as robert said genuine believers that that fall away from grace due to some sin and they lose their salvation another could be

Uh jewish people who had the truth of god as god's chosen people that would be fitting with the context um that these these are jewish people who who were enlightened because they had the truth of scripture and And they walked away from that A third is people who are part of the local congregation of believers

Who were never saved? Uh, but they enjoyed the benefits Okay, and and that's what

I think is, uh, what we see in I'll bring this up is uh first john 2 19

It says for they went out from us But were never really of us For if they had been of us, they would have remained with us

But they went out so that it would be shown that they were not really of us And I I look at that passage, which is a clear teaching and so we always interpret the more difficult from the clear so So First john 2 19 says that anyone who leaves

The the the congregation walks out, you know denies christ having once Saying they accepted christ this passage says that they were never of us

Okay, and they're they're leaving is the exposing of that um, and so as I do you see that as a universal thing not just specific to the

The group that john's talking about there Yeah, I I think that this is I think that the way john is seeing it it's universal

Because he's dealing with people who are in he's his his thing different than hebrews. He's dealing with gnostics, right?

He's dealing with people who are in the church with a false teaching Uh, and so I think it's people in the church who are then leaving and and walking away and and when

I look at it, I I look at a total and and you know, I I'm We you and I may not be in agreement, you know there there was a question that said they wanted me they wanted you to explain how you more about how you you're you went back to lutheranism, but um so So, you know and this could be where some of it is, but I I don't

I think that when we look at What salvation is a work of god? He says he will he won't let us go

He you know, so how could we if we didn't save ourselves?

How could we how could we lose our salvation? How could we if god is not going to let us go, you know in romans 8?

He's he's making it clear There's there's nothing that can separate you from the love of god and he he goes through and explains, you know

Visible invisible, you know, he goes every extreme to say there's nothing. Yeah, pretty comprehensive list

It's it and that's the whole purpose of it is to be comprehensive. So When you look at that, he's he's saying there's nothing we could do.

So people will say well There's nothing god will do but we could do it But we're not stronger than god if he's if he's giving every example, so I I think you the nature of salvation is that once we

Once god regenerates us. We're changed. We can't change back And so how do we now reconcile with hebrews now?

I i'm gonna state I I said this earlier you interpret the easier to understand

That's what interprets the harder passages Right hebrews is a difficult book to understand if you do not understand leviticus

You will have a harder time with hebrews. Yeah, true okay and so Uh looking at that If if I start with the easier passages the easier passages make it clear that salvation is done god does

That we can't lose it So how do I reconcile that with this and that's that's what the article goes through to try to explain

And really what i'm trying to to go through is to say If if the scripture the clear passages are teaching that we can't lose the salvation

Then this can't be and and the john 1st. John 2 19 Says that the only those that are were never saved leave us if I take those two clearer passages

Now I have to bring that into this to say well, these can't be believers So what is it that they tasted?

You know, I mean it's as robert said it's very clear It it there they were once enlightened they tasted the heavenly gift they shared in the spirit

I think that these are people who either Whether jewish or in the church

They had the word of god. They had the preaching they had some light of god's word in their life

They claimed they followed it but then left it and so Uh, jesus spent a lot of his time dealing with the jewish self -righteousness of the jewish leaders and so I I could see a lot of that even maybe within you know that that i'm going to Get all these things in your name and jesus says

I never knew you. Yeah Yeah, yeah, and and I I think that i'm going to give away robert a little bit of my view don't don't beat me up but What paul is saying here in this sermon

No, I don't think he wrote it I think he preached it, okay I've heard that i've heard that uh theory recently and then it was recorded by somebody else and I I actually found it quite compelling

I I that I have uh, so a friend of mine uh, tom buck did his dissertation on hebrews on who wrote hebrews and I I I talked in length with him and actually had him on the podcast to discuss it

Uh, and I I think it's a very compelling argument I I actually that is where I I land now that It really satisfies

Everything that this is a sermon that he preached. Yeah, i'm almost in that camp too, by the way. Yeah.

Yeah Uh, see we're we're in in like mind there So yeah, can't be dogmatic.

My pet theory was always apollos That's who I like too until until just recently.

Yeah It's a very compelling argument Yeah so so I think that You know if if this is a sermon by paul

He he would have understood a lot of the self -righteousness that was in judaism. Sure uh, and and I I like where you're going with this, but I the thing that I think is missing if I could

Gently push back on my good buddy. Oh go for it. I did that there's a hypothetical sense too

So I don't think we're actually talking about what really happened and what people really did I think

He says, you know if this happens then this wouldn't be possible. So The way that the way that I ultimately ended up breaking it down.

I actually just pulled up my statement from From that article that I did I interpret this passage as the author of hebrews perhaps paul in a sermon um, basically issuing a warning about a horrible outcome, right so he's basically saying if You willingly turn your back on the gospel and reject the idea of salvation through faith in jesus and instead

Return to your dead works and your law keeping it's going to be almost impossible for you to be restored

So don't do it. Don't go down that road. I I feel like that's kind of what he's saying So he's not even getting really into the once saved always saved.

He's basically just saying don't go down that road Don't test it, you know yeah, and and that that is that's a i'm, just looking at now and seeing that and saying yeah, you know because That that's the the james 2 passage right where you know, he's saying if You say you can do and peal forget verse 14.

They started verse 15 and ignore the question Well, he's saying if you have faith without works, right, you know, what kind of faith is that and so uh, because yeah in verse 3 he says and this we will do if god permits and For in the case of those who were once so it could be the the possibility

He's giving because he is talking even in verse 2 about the eternal judgment. Yeah Right verse 1 is leaving the elementary things

The teaching of christ press on to maturity laying aside a foundation of repentance from dead works to a faith toward god

Yeah, and that's the other thing that's interesting in this phrase too is when he talks about restoring He doesn't say restore to salvation.

He says restore to repentance and so that's a really interesting Phrase or interesting way to put it and it kind of to me that threw me in it threw me for a loop for a while Yeah, no,

I I think that there's From from looking at the text at a cursory view I think you have a good point with it that it it may be not addressing an absolute but a hypothetical yeah, and and then it's there for a point of the the point of illustrating what he's saying here about You know the the judgment like this is gonna be worse for you if you're gonna turn to back to to the the dead works

Yeah, and and that's where we get into that whole idea of sort of uh hyperbole and he's talking about crucifying

Jesus again, you know He's using that sort of extreme to really drive his point home

You know, it wouldn't literally be Recrucifying christ obviously, but yeah, that's interesting

I love this. This is really yeah, and you know, I gotta read your article now yeah, and and It's interesting because as as you go on, you know, we usually just deal with verses four to six but You know, you have a purpose statement right there in verse seven.

So Looking at it, right? So so verse six says and then uh, then they fall away

It is impossible to renew them again to repentance Since they've they they again crucify themselves to the son of god and put him to open shame

For the ground that drinks the rain Which often falls? On it brings forth vegetation useful for those

For whose sake it uh, it is also tilled receives the blessing of god, but it yields thorns and thistles uh, it's it is worthless and Close to uh being a curse and it ends up being burned.

So he's now returning back to What he's addressing there earlier in in verse one and two about the judgment

Yeah, it's right and the two sides that don't happen to the land. Yeah. Yeah, so no, I think

I think you're making a really good point with that so So I think

I think you know, I may be agreeing with you on that one All right, you know and look this is the thing folks, you know

As as robert said right we don't know everything Uh, anyone that tells you that their their theology is 100 perfect doesn't know what they don't know

Yeah, okay. All of our theology has problems. We don't know where or otherwise we would change right?

Uh, I mean, I I can't imagine why someone that's you know in the biblical view of baptist would go with lutheran

But some do I mean no No, I mean right so We're gonna we all have differences and we're going to sit at the feet of christ.

He's going to correct us all but one thing that I I want people listening to This discussion to pick up on Is the fact that how do we address these things, right?

As eric came in here robert Had a position I i'm hearing it.

I'm thinking i'm disagreeing with it I'm voicing he's hearing having disagreement and yet as we're we work through we go, you know, we come to to agreement

Why because we're both looking at the text of scripture Right not holding our theology as an idol

We're saying what does the word of god say? And we can be convinced by the word of god

Right and and that's how all of us need to be Especially when we do apologetics because man when you're when you're defending the faith you can

Have the tendency that you want to defend it to a fault, right? I mean, yeah for folks who may be new and don't understand apologetics live

We're here not only to do apologetics, but to teach it and that's why like if you see us Sometimes we get someone in we we have a debate

I may stop a debate in the middle to explain to you as the audience why I ask questions I ask

Which is always fun when I when I point out that i'm asking someone a question And and then they continue to make the same mistake that I just pointed out to the audience

He's making and they continue doing it It's it's it's just classic to see but we have to realize when we do apologetics

We could be get to the point where we're defending something to a fault Yeah Let me give an example that may resonate with people now that we've passed 2020 um

In the three -letter agencies in the government um What you have is a a a view

Uh that we'd have of defending the agency And and so we argue to defend the like we can't allow the agency to look bad

As if somehow the agencies and this is true with all the agencies that that I worked with as if like somehow

You know If there's anything we get wrong, it's a problem and and like the whole agency's going to fall apart

Uh, and it's actually you see this with pastors that try to make it look like they they don't sin when you do that You actually expose

You break down because you so try to defend a sinless like that You're perfectly sinless that you end up exposing sin and pride people can get so defensive where they're defending something and It's as if and robert mentioned this earlier with the idea it's hard to when you get into hebrew roots or any of this

It's hard to admit you're wrong Because then it's like well now you're going to think everything is wrong. Like christianity is wrong and This is what we have to be careful of as apologists

That we are not defending what we believe is the faith to to the point of error

We have to defend the truth of god's word But we have to be able to be convinced by god's word

Yeah, we have to be open to open to correction if god's word says something different and that can be hard yeah, it is

Yeah And you get into I don't know about I agree I get into the role of I want to win this argument

And yes, wait a second. I got to check myself, you know, it's like no this isn't about winning an argument I want to find out what the what the scripture says on this

And and that's it does two things for me number one Like you just talked about it puts scripture as the authority over the conversation we're both

Working towards the same end is a better understanding of what scripture says And because that's the goal number two in my in my opinion, it makes me less dogmatic

Uh over any particular issue so to say something's entirely 100 wrong 100 You know, that's that's false or whatever some things you can say that obviously

But i'm thinking in general where we've got disagreements between certain things baptists and lutherans We might say since that keeps coming up But the idea isn't that I have it right and you're a heretic that's going to burn in hell.

That's yeah That sort of divisive approach just doesn't help anybody. There's gonna be some things that are clear, right?

Jesus is god That's true and right. Yeah, you've got your kind of litmus test uh

Yeah For sure. You've got your primary, uh Primary objectives primary. What would you call those issues?

There's primary secondary tertiary, but I would I would put them in the category of I mean

I I like to put them as this there are beliefs those things i'm willing to die for Jesus is god.

The only means of salvation is through christ Things like that that there is a god he has spoken right?

Those are beliefs something i'm willing to die for Things that are so that are so true

You know, there is no backing down and those are going to be things that all the all christians that are genuine christians would end up holding to Uh, then there's convictions

Those are the secondary things things. I feel very strongly about I'll i'll debate it.

I'll argue over it. I'll feel strongly. Uh, Whether i'll break friendship over it or not.

Maybe maybe maybe not but there's going to be things like, um, you know You know that i'll put in a secondary issue.

Um It's going to be things like um Well, we are talking. Can you lose your salvation?

Calvinism arminianism some of those debates that people would have Uh gifts continuing or not, right?

I would they're not unimportant. They're not unimportant They're very strong convictions, right? I'll debate it and argue over it

But while I break You know, you know, is it worth breaking relations over?

Probably not right, you know, but and then the third category would be preferences These are the church area issues.

These are going to be you know, whether what type of music you sing in church um, do you use a hymnal or or Just psalms right

Those i'm not breaking fellowship those i'm just going. Okay, you know, um Yeah, so what what the theologians call adiaphora matters of indifference like paul talks about in romans 14 yeah, so Uh with that, you know,

I know we're at the we're a little bit past the 10 o 'clock time so I I want to give you a chance to to and I know we had uh, a bunch of questions that people were asking how could people get in touch with you robert so that they might be able to ask you some questions or Follow your your youtube channel follow what you're doing because you know, like at least

I could say, you know I knew you before you were so famous, you know You were you were still working on your dissertation

You I think tourism had just come out. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty new when we last got together.

Yep. Yeah um, yeah, so i'm The biblical roots is the best way to get a hold of me on you know at the biblical roots

You'll find me on the socials there the biblical roots .org. There's a contact form there

If you want to get a hold of me, I try to respond to everybody except I get some knuckleheads that I don't but Um any legitimate questions,

I love that I also love when people reach out to me and say i'm dealing with this particular teacher or teaching a lot of the stuff that we do on our channel, we we actually engage with specific teachings from from folks and say

Test it basically test it against scriptures. This does this hold water? Is this you know, where are they? Right?

Where are they wrong? And i'll admit both Um, but but what a lot of what I get it's not like just I don't

I don't want to walk around picking fights But if people are coming to me saying I have a need this teacher keeps telling me something and I don't understand

How that could be true rob. Can you look at that? Those are the types of things we put out lots of videos based on viewer recommendations

Or even just viewer questions. That's that's super important part of what our ministry does So yeah reach out to me in any of those in any of those areas.

My personal blog is rlsolberg .com You can also find all my links there as well.

But yeah, youtube is probably the the The focus of of most of our work as far as like the hub of activity, but we're also on facebook insta and I try tiktok.

I get weird results on that one. I think i'm too old Yeah, well, I don't I don't do tiktok for political reasons, uh

I my background cyber security. I I knew I knew when it came out what it was and I won't I just won't touch it

And I mean it took it took trump for for it to finally be realized that it was I was saying it for years before trump that it was just you know

It was put out by the chinese to you know both spy on americans and and You know indoctrinated americans, but yeah, well, hopefully they're spying on me and they're learning a little about the gospel

Yeah Not their intention, but i'm sure that happens right you never know can't be careful of the videos you watch

Well, I I want to thank you for coming in. Uh, I hope folks if you if you enjoyed this that you share with others

Uh, it does help others to hear about robert and and what he's doing also about this show what we're doing uh next week we're gonna have uh, one of the regulars, uh who

Watches behind the scenes chuck If you remember he was on with godless grandma who we had on this show some time ago and he got on her program

She won't let me on her program Uh, if you watched when she was on with me, you know why she won't have me on hers

Uh, you you saw her break down at the end um very upset with truth being uh

Shined the light on her but uh, be careful the statements you make i'll just say She made statements and then wanted to put her statements on me as if I made them.

Yeah So we're going to talk about godless grandma Uh, so, you know kelly if you're listening if you're watching you're welcome to join us next week and come back in I doubt you will

Because you already ran scared once so, um, but we'd we'd love to have you on.

Um, so, um With that, uh, I want to encourage you guys if you

I would just say this if you haven't gotten the book tourism I would encourage you to go out and order two copies right now

There's a reason you need two copies One is for you And one is for the friend that is going to ask you about hebrew roots because that friend isn't going to return the copy

I know this from experience hence. I have the copy that I have the one copy.

I never got back I have the copy I bought as the replacement And had to put my notes in and then

I have the one on kindle I gotta send you I gotta send you one Okay, yeah, shoot me your shoot me your mailing address i'll send you one and I appreciate it.

So folks get go out and buy two copies of tourism. It is by rl solberg

Um, and i'm very glad to have you back on we gotta we gotta have you back more often I I miss these conversations and you know

And and talk with you because I really I always love talking with you. Yeah, same

So folks until next week Uh, just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god, and we'll see you next week