December 11, 2017 Show with John Price on “Exclusive A Cappella Worship Defended” (Part # 3 of 3: “Psychology”)

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of December 2017.

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Tonight we are going to be returning for part three of three parts, the final part that we are conducting for our discussion on an exclusive a cappella worship defense.

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And our guest to do that today is John Price, who is pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York, who has already been on the program twice to discuss this.

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He has written a book on this theme titled Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments, and the

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Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study. So therefore, since this is part three, we are going to be discussing a psychological study.

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But before that, I want to whet our appetites not only for a cappella worship, but also for the

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Christmas season. So I hope you enjoy this song that will be familiar to all of you,

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I'm sure. Joy to the world, the Lord is come, Let earth receive her

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King. Let every heart prepare Him room,

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And heaven and nature sing. And heaven and nature sing. And heaven and nature sing.

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And heaven and nature sing. And heaven and nature sing. And heaven and nature sing. And heaven and nature sing. Joy to the earth, the

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Savior reigns, Let men their songs employ.

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While fields and floods, Rocks, hills, and plains, Repeat the sounding joy.

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Repeat the sounding joy. No more let sins and sorrows grow,

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Nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make

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His blessings flow, For as the curse is found,

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For as the curse is found, For as the curse is found,

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He rules the world with truth and grace, And makes the nations prove

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The glories of His righteousness, And wonders of His love.

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Praise God, that was Joy to the World from the Wonderful God CD by Praise and Harmony Acapella Worship, a new

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CD from the Acapella Company, and if you would like more information about that CD and if you'd like to purchase it, go to acapella .org,

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that's a -c -a -p -p -e -l -l -a .org. But now, let me introduce, for the third time, as he returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for Exclusive Acapella Worship Defended, it is

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Pastor John Price, it's great to have you back. Good to be back, Chris, and look forward to talking to you.

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If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, whether you agree with Pastor Price that only acapella singing is to be involved in regard to the music portion of our worship, or whether you disagree, perhaps even adamantly so, you can send in a question to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you disagree with your own pastor on this subject, or your congregation disagrees with your denomination on this issue, or your pastor agrees with the denomination on this issue.

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Well, you can feel free to remain anonymous for certain reasons like that, but if it's not a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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And so, this discussion is really based on your book, Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments and the

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Worship of God, and of course, someone looking at that title might not necessarily know, and perhaps if they didn't know, you wouldn't know at all that this was a defensive acapella worship, because it mentions musical instruments and the worship of God in the subtitle, but that is because in your research, you are proving from the scriptures and from history, although history is not a proof, it's just a support to your biblical arguments, that musical instruments, other than the human voice, are not to be used in the worship of God since the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

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Am I correct? That's correct. What we proved in the first interview together, we talked about the theological issues, and there we looked through the entire

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Bible on this subject of musical instruments, and we find that God did command the use of instruments in the

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Old Testament temple in Jerusalem, but then with the coming of Christ, that temple, worship, and all of its rituals, its ceremonies, has been abolished by the death of Christ, and we are to look now to the

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Lord Jesus as the head of the church, or the worship of the New Testament, look to him and to his apostles, and what we've seen is that we have no command or example in any

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New Testament passage or in any New Testament church for the use of any instruments, and so in the

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New Testament, it is the singing of the human voice, which is to continue and is to be what we might call the music that we have in worship.

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And then last time, we went over the whole history, and the whole history of this subject in the time of the church from the church fathers all the way forward to the present time, and it was quite a surprising, to me that was the most surprising part of the study, was to find that musical instruments were not used for over a thousand years following the death of the apostles.

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They were not used in the Christian church, and they only were introduced in the 12 -1300s, and they were resisted by many even during that period of time, and then they reached a height in the peak of the corruption of the

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Roman Catholic Church, and the Reformation removed them, and then they crept back in over the centuries, and here we are again today, where musical instruments dominate in many evangelical churches, so that's just a summary of the historical study, and today we're dealing with the psychological aspects of music, and by that, what we mean, what

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I mean is that music has a very powerful influence upon the human emotions, it can directly affect our emotions in sometimes a very subtle way, it is mysterious, but it's very powerful, and we all know what this influence of music is when we listen to certain types of music, it stirs up certain emotions within us, we can go into a store and there's certain music being played there, turn on the radio, wherever and whenever we listen to music, it has that power to affect our emotions, and that is generally what we're dealing with here today.

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I think what

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I would want to say is that, as we introduce the subject, is that in the

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New Testament, the worship of the Gospel Church, the worship of the

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New Testament, is one in which the mind has to be foremost, and the mind has to be fully engaged in the worship of God.

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Our mental faculties, our intellects are central in the worship of the

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New Testament. Jesus said in John chapter 4 that worship is to be in spirit and in truth.

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It's to be a worship that is from the heart inward, but it is to be a worship that is in truth according to the truth of Christ and the truth of the

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Gospel. Preaching is the central activity, the central element in Christian worship, and that involves the use of our minds as we hear the

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Word of God, and then we have the reading of the Scripture, and then we have prayer, and so all of these elements involve our minds first.

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Paul says, let all things be done to edification. In 1

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Corinthians chapter 14, he says that we are to abound for the edification of the

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Church. And even when we come to singing in the

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New Testament Church, the use of the mind is to be first and foremost.

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Paul says to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 14 and verse 15, he says,

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I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. So his mind must be engaged, his mind must understand and be fully attentive to the words that he's singing in the worship of the

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Church. Paul says to the Colossians in chapter 3 and verse 16, he says, let the

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Word of Christ richly dwell within you. So the

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Word of Christ is first, and it must richly dwell within us, and then out of that Word of Christ in our minds, with all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another.

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So with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

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And so singing involves the Word of Christ richly dwelling within us, it involves teaching and admonishing.

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It's a teaching and admonishing ministry, the singing of the Church. And so the mind is central and first in the worship of the

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New Testament Church. The problem that we are addressing today is that music is able to bypass the mind, and it's able to have this direct and powerful effect upon our emotions without the full engagement, without the use of our minds.

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And it's able to create this elevated emotional atmosphere in the

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Church that is really contrary and opposed to the primary purpose in worship, which is our edification, and it's the worship of God that comes from our minds that are being enlightened by the truth under the work of the

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Holy Spirit. So, musical instruments.

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Music, when we're speaking here today, we're speaking of the use of instruments in the worship of the modern

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Church. We're speaking of, you know, any kind of instrument. Generally, in many evangelical churches today, you would expect to find a rock and roll band of some kind, various instruments.

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And very often what happens is that these instruments are used to manipulate the atmosphere of the

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Church, to create a pleasurable musical experience, to stimulate the people, and to do so in a way that their minds are not fully active.

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And oftentimes they're led away from the truth and diverted from it.

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Yeah, in fact, this is not just exclusively in regard to churches that have rock bands.

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I have been in a very well -known Reformed Church that I'm sure you instantly would recognize the name of it because it's globally known, and known for its biblical orthodoxy.

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I have loved the teaching that has come out of the pulpit of that church for decades, and have been to conferences that have really had a tremendous impact upon my life.

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But that church is known for a traditional, very traditional, conservative brass band, and I can tell you without exaggerating that I can vividly remember being there for a conference, and during the singing portion of the conference, the brass band was beautifully playing, but I could not even hear myself singing.

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I could not hear anybody in the audience singing, nor could I hear even myself singing, and that might have been a blessing that they hear me, but I couldn't hear anybody.

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So, I mean, this is not just something that's exclusively a problem for people that use rock music or what might be considered, quote -unquote, worldly, secular music.

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Right, and, you know, this is a, it's a problem that we all face, is that in the

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Church we are to sing, and we are to sing, as I mentioned, with the mind and with the

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Word of Christ dwelling ritually within us. And we, I was just noticing this yesterday as I was singing,

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I would sing a couple of stanzas, my mind would be paying attention perhaps to the pleasantness of the tune, distracted by something of that nature, and then

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I come back a couple of stanzas later and I wonder what did I just sing. And so, but the music can be in itself a great mechanism to lead us away from the truth of what we're actually singing.

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Now, when I say this, I'm not saying that we're not supposed to have, our emotions are not supposed to be involved in worship, or that we're not supposed to have joy in the singing of the

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Church. We are, but it must be the mind that is comprehending and understanding the truth, and the mind understanding the truth under the light and the grace of the

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Holy Spirit that creates the emotions that correspond to the truth that we're singing.

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And you just said something that made a very important thought pop into my head and now

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I can't remember what it was. But you were speaking about the, oh

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I know what I was going to say, I was going to say if you are a person that is devoid of emotion in worship, or in evangelism, or in anything involved with your

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Christian faith, that is a seriously dangerous sign that you aren't even regenerate if you don't have any emotion at all.

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I mean, you may have an emotion that people cannot readily recognize who are surrounding you because of the fact that we all do have our own personality traits that are morally neutral, some of them.

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I mean, you know, some people think that you are dead spiritually if you are not jumping up and down and clapping your hands during a worship service.

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But what I mean is if you are not genuinely moved with some kind of emotion ever during a worship service, there's something seriously and deadly wrong with you.

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Right, our emotion should be involved and we should, you know, that is part of the worship of the

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New Testament. And the way people sing, it is made very evident whether or not they are robust with a

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God -honoring emotion. You know, the singing will certainly suffer if you're not filled with some kind of an emotion of praise and thanksgiving and gratitude towards God.

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Right, and I might just make a few comments about this whole subject.

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Yes. Of the power of music on our humanity.

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This is a subject that has been known and thought about for thousands of years.

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The ancient Greeks believed that music was first practiced by the gods, and then it was given to the human race as a gift.

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And they believed that music penetrated the souls of men with a divine influence.

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Aristotle believed that music had the power to shape human character and affect behavior.

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He said that if a young boy listens to soft and indolent tunes, he'll grow up to be effeminate.

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If he listens to bold and energetic music, he'll grow up to become a leader. And Plato believed that the effect of music on the human behavior was so strong, he made this statement, and it's an interesting statement.

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He said, let me make the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws.

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In other words, music has more power to affect the character and the behavior of a people than the laws of the nation.

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And we know this from our own experience. Hollywood advertisers are all well aware of the ability of music to manipulate and to create certain responses.

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Music is used in various kinds of psychotherapy. It's known in the medical community that music affects every single...

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There's hardly an organ in our body that is not affected by music when we hear it.

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There are areas in our brains that are what we might call pleasure centers, and they are stimulated when we encounter various pleasures, such as food or sex or drugs of abuse.

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And those very same areas are stimulated under the hearing of music. So music, it enters our ears, and it has this tremendous power within our minds, our emotions, and even in our bodies.

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Now, I know that you believe in Sola Scriptura. So just to reiterate what we mentioned the last time during our discussion on history, and the historical data on music in the worship of God, you are not saying that any of these things that you are bringing up, these citations, these are not infallible, these are not what you base your opinions on, but they are very interesting things from history and even from contemporary science that support what you're saying.

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You're not saying that just because Plato or Socrates or somebody said something that it's true, you're just using evidence that supports what you're saying.

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That's correct, and what I'm saying is that what we experience as individuals today when we listen to music is something that's been known for thousands of years, and men have wrestled with this subject often throughout history and studied it, and this is something that we should be aware of.

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The powerful influence that music has on us is something that we should be aware of and pay attention to when we come to worship

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God. It's not something that we should just use to manipulate or to stir up an emotional state.

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I think the basic issue is that we are living in a time in which many millions of people go to a church service on a

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Sunday and their emotions are stirred by the music in the building called a church.

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They have a pleasant experience, and because of that pleasant experience, they are deluded into often believing that they are

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Christians, and they confuse that emotional state created by the music with the presence of the

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Holy Spirit. Yes, that's right. And very often people will make comments and they will say, for example,

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I remember one man I spoke with, he said, when they start the music, you can feel the

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Holy Spirit come down. Right. No, no, you're not. It's not the

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Holy Spirit that's come down. When the music has started, it is this subtle, seductive, and powerful influence of that music on your emotional state.

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That's what's happening to you. Yes, goosebumps on your arms are not evidence of the

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Holy Spirit being present in the room. That's true. Yes. So, yes,

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I quote some of these different men because it just helps us to understand what we go through and what we see around us today.

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Yes, it was interesting years ago when I interviewed Dr. T. David Gordon, who is the author of the book,

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Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns, and Dr. Gordon is not an exclusive a cappella advocate, but he said something very interesting.

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He said a lot of interesting things during the course of the interview, but one of them was in response to someone asking a question that you were asked the last time you were on is, are melody and rhythm morally neutral, and are even instruments themselves morally neutral?

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And Dr. Gordon, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have his book open in front of me, but he, in a part of his answer, said,

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Can you imagine you're at a funeral of a precious loved one, and then all of a sudden, as a part of the music that is provided at the funeral, several men stand up and start playing kazoos.

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You might be highly offended by that, and it shows you that sounds can alter your state of mind as to whether you are at peace, or whether you are angry, or whether you're laughing.

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Or whether you're feeling sensual. The music definitely is an aid to change one's state of mind and emotion, and that is why people, when they have musical instruments involved in anything that they're doing, they will gear the way the music is played, and the actual music that is played itself, toward the event to make it appropriate.

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Like, it's interesting how all military music has a very similar sound to it. Am I right? That's true.

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I mean, you know, I guess the thought that comes to my mind is, you know, when the, back in the

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American Revolution, they would play the drums as they went into the battle.

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And it went because the drums would stir the heartbeat and increase the adrenaline.

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And so, you see it with athletes before they engage in their competitions.

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They are listening to music. It has that ability to create certain stimulus within their heart and within their emotions.

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Even a lot of secular music in clubs and things like that will motivate women to dance in a much more sensual way than they normally might, for a different reason.

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Like, a square dance is quite a different experience than being in a nightclub.

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Not that I go to nightclubs now, but I did go to quite a few of them before I was saved. All of these things are evidence of the power of music over our souls and in our emotional state.

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And very much what goes on today in much of Christianity is that this power of music is used very deliberately to create an emotionally charged atmosphere in the church and to bring the people into almost sometimes a trance and a state of ecstasy.

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And this power, I think we're going to get into this as we get into the interview, is something that the church has known about throughout the centuries.

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And there's a lot that the early church fathers and the reformers had to say about this that the church today should pay attention to.

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Yeah, and we have to go to our first break right now, so we'll bring some of those very things up when we return, God willing. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Chris Arnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter.

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Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with John Price in a defense of exclusive a cappella worship right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Silent night, holy night.

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Shepherds quake at the sight.

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Glories stream from heaven afar.

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Heav 'nly hosts sing alleluia.

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Christ the Savior is born.

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Christ the Savior is born.

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That was Silent Night, obviously. One of the world's most favorite Christmas hymns that is sung in many languages all over the globe this time of year.

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And that was just one of the many songs and just part of that song.

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That wasn't the entire Silent Night version on the CD. But this is the

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Wonderful God CD from Praise and Harmony Acapella Worship. And if you want more information about that, go to acapella .org,

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A -C -A -P -P -E -L -L -A .org. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is

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John Price. And we are discussing his book, Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments in the

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Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study. And the actual theme of our discussions have been the last three times, including today, that John has been on the program.

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The actual theme is an exclusive acapella worship defense. And this is part three of three on the psychological aspect of this.

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We had the theological aspect or the biblical aspect addressed in our first discussion.

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We had the historical aspect of this discussion a week ago today.

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And today we are discussing the psychological aspect. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. A couple of very brief things that I want you to clarify also is that I know you do not believe that musical instruments are never to be used by Christians and that you believe that it is completely appropriate for Christians to have concerts outside of the ordinary gathered worship of the church, that you believe that musicians are to use the gifts that they have been given by God to their fullest extent, and with much gusto and joy and celebration, they are to use these instruments, even if they are using them in a private act of worship in your home or in a devotional sense, using them at some point when you are worshiping with your family.

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You are not anti -musical instrument. It's just that you do not believe that the biblical record or the historical record would lend one to, with confidence, use these musical instruments in the church during an ordinary gathered assembly for worship.

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That's correct, Chris. Musical instruments, music in general, musical instruments in particular, these are good gifts of God to us, and he has given us all things richly to enjoy, and whatever our hand finds to do, do it with all of our heart to the

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Lord, and whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, we are to do all things to the glory of God, and that would include the use of the musical instruments.

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And so Christians are certainly, we have liberty to use instruments, to use them in the privacy of our own homes, in other gatherings.

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We are speaking here about God's house, which is the church. When we come to his house, then we must follow his directives, and what we find in the

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New Testament is that there is to be the singing of the human voice without the accompaniment of the musical instruments, and so we must stick to his commands, not add to them or subtract from them.

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Those of our listeners who missed last week, they might be quite astonished to know that the only reformer that believed in the liberty to use musical instruments in worship was

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Luther. All the other reformers were unanimously opposed to that, and even if you trace the history of Protestantism up through the present day, the only stream within Protestantism, or should

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I say streams plural, that used musical instruments prior to the 19th century were the

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Lutherans and the Anglicans, that all of the other streams of Protestantism were unanimously opposed to it, and the first musical instrument used in a

41:36

Presbyterian church in America was not until the 19th century. That's correct, and it was one of the great works of the

41:46

Protestant Reformation to remove the instruments that had been so dominant in the

41:52

Roman Catholic Church to bring in congregational singing, which had been absent, and that congregational singing was a cappella in all of the

42:04

Reformed churches. Now, I don't know if you wanted to continue something on the psychological aspect right now as far as a thought that you might have in your head, but we do have a listener who has a question relevant to that, if you'd like to take a time to answer it.

42:19

Sure. Sure, we can do that. All right, we have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, one thing that has always bothered me is when there is an invitation at the end of a worship service, and you will have someone playing an organ or tinkling on a piano, creating some kind of a mood that would soften the heart of the individual in the audience to in some way aid in compelling them to come to Christ.

42:55

This seems to be a blatant form of manipulation of the emotions in mind, and I know that you are against musical instruments altogether in the worship, but do you have anything specifically to say about that?

43:10

Well, this is just another example of what we've been talking about, and I think

43:18

I've seen this myself take place. The person who is playing the organ or the piano at that particular time, that person knows exactly what they're doing with that particular tune that they're playing, and that is directly the purpose of it, is to create that atmosphere, to make the people, bring them into some kind of a calmed or a more willing state of mind to be able to respond.

43:52

And so I would simply say that this is one of the misuses of the instruments in the modern church, and I would fully agree with the response of the person, of Chris, who wrote in the question.

44:09

By the way, Chris, you've won a free copy of the book we are discussing, Old Light on New Worship, so make sure we have your full mailing address, so CVBBS .com

44:18

can mail that out to you. This is a beautiful hardback book.

44:23

How many pages is it? Something close to 300, correct? 250 -some pages.

44:30

Yeah, and I hope that you enjoy that. And just to add a little bit to Christopher's question,

44:39

I'm assuming you might, and maybe you wouldn't, I'm assuming you might even have a problem if during the conclusion of a sermon where a minister is giving an appeal to come to Christ, even though we who are

44:53

Reformed don't invite people to come forward typically, although there are some that do this, but we don't typically invite people to come forward and have what is known as an altar call or anything like that, but we do have invitations for people to repent and come to Christ.

45:09

Now, how would you feel about while the minister was doing that, an acapella group or perhaps even designated people from the congregation started just singing, you know, oohs and ahhs in some kind of angelic acapella choir sound to do the same kind of thing?

45:29

I mean, that could be equally manipulative when it comes to emotions, couldn't it? Absolutely.

45:35

And I think that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the

45:43

Word of Christ. Faith comes not by music, but by the Word of God.

45:49

And we find that the apostles were all preachers, and they went out and they preached the

45:56

Word. And the churches in the Book of Acts, the churches of the New Testament, they were built through the preaching of the

46:04

Gospel. The apostles were not musicians. They were not singers. And so, you know, my belief would be that we need to stick with the methods that we find in the

46:19

New Testament. And so when the Gospel is preached, our concentration should be on the

46:26

Word of God and not be manipulated. Our emotions should not be manipulated.

46:32

Our minds should not be distracted by some kind of a musical, whether it be instruments or just acapella singing.

46:43

Now, you have admitted that this section of your book, although it's an important section, is the most difficult or was the most difficult for you to write because of the fact that it does largely depend upon subjective thought on it.

47:00

I mean, you cannot prove with infallibility or inerrancy some of these conclusions that you've drawn, correct?

47:06

As far as just the psychological aspect. That's correct. But I did include it because I wanted to show that the

47:16

Church has wrestled with this issue throughout its history, and certainly we should pay attention to what others before us have said.

47:25

We shouldn't be ignorant of what the Church has said throughout the centuries.

47:31

And they sound some very strong warnings to us about this subject. And maybe what

47:37

I ought to do at this point is to begin to cover some of that material.

47:43

Yes, definitely. If we go back to the time of the Church Fathers, Clement of Alexandria, he had a few things to say about the use of instruments and the use of music in the

47:57

Church. And when we're talking about these Church Fathers, as we noted last time, they all sang acapella in the

48:06

Church, and they were very strong against the use of any instruments in the worship of the Church.

48:13

And Clement says that we may indeed retain chaste harmonies, but not so those tearful songs which are too florid in the over -delicate modulation of the voice they require.

48:30

This music should be repudiated for its sentimentality and its rivalry which degenerates the soul.

48:42

And he writes, The exciting rhythms of flutes and harps, choruses and dances,

48:50

Egyptian castanets and other entertainments get out of control and become indecent and burlesque, especially when they are reinforced by cymbals and drums and accompanied by the noise of all these instruments of deception.

49:07

So he calls the instruments the instruments of deception. Now, when

49:13

Clement made that statement, he was referring to the pagan mystery cults, which were all around the early

49:22

Church, back in the first centuries of the Church. There were these pagan cults.

49:29

They would use musical instruments to stir up their emotions. There was often drunkenness involved and sensuality.

49:39

And so the use of instruments in the pagan cults was common. And so this is what

49:45

Clement is speaking about. And these things should not be used in the Church. He says,

49:51

We must be on guard against whatever pleasure titillates eye and ear and effeminates.

50:00

He says, Music corrupts morals by its sensual and affected style and insidiously inflames the passions.

50:16

And Clement called music, he called it the licentious and mischievous art of music.

50:26

So he was addressing this use of music to create an emotional atmosphere, to stir the emotions.

50:34

And he said that these things should be not used in the

50:40

Christian Church. And then also Augustine, he writes, The sensual pleasure to which the soul must not be delivered so as to be weakened often leads me astray when sense does not accompany reason.

50:58

Now he's speaking here not just about instruments, but about acapella singing. That when he sang, sometimes his mind was led astray because he enjoyed the music that he was singing.

51:13

He said, In such things I unconsciously sin, but later

51:18

I am conscious of it. In Augustine's most famous quote in this regard, he says,

51:27

When I am moved more by the singing than by what is sung, I confess that I have sinned.

51:33

In other words, when he's more moved by the melody, by the pleasantness of the tune that he's singing, and he's speaking of acapella singing because that's what

51:43

Augustine, that's what they did in his day in the Church. In fact, there is a - More attracted to the music than to the actual words that he is singing.

51:54

Yeah, there is a listener who has a question that - I'm sorry if I interrupted you there, but there's a listener that has a direct question related to that.

52:03

Okay. Let's see here. We have

52:08

Joseph in Nassau County, Long Island, New York, who asks,

52:17

How do you respond to the minister or just a Christian brother or sister who says,

52:23

We need that piano or we need those instruments because the congregation where I am is filled with untalented people and the sound of the singing is horrible.

52:37

So, I can even remember a minister in an exclusively acapella congregation who said to me,

52:48

Nothing better than an acapella singing when you got good voices. Nothing worse when you don't.

52:55

But, I mean, how do you respond to that? I understand the concern. And I would say that acapella singing is, or singing in general, just singing, is something that has to be learned.

53:12

You know, we learn how to walk when we're children. We learn how to speak.

53:19

We learn our language. We even learn the inflection and the accent of a language.

53:27

And we do that by hearing, by listening to other people. And the same thing is true in regard to singing.

53:33

The way that we learn how to sing is by listening to other people who have good voices and who are able to sing.

53:42

And the one thing that I've noticed is that the use of instruments in the church is not really an aid to help the people in their singing.

53:55

People who have been in churches where music is dominant are often people who have never really learned how to sing well because they've never depended upon it and they've never really practiced it.

54:11

And oftentimes, music in the church today, when you have a band up front and singers, the people in the congregation are entirely passive and it's just their spectators.

54:22

And this is an entertainment that's taking place in the church. It's not worship from the people.

54:28

It's entertainment. And we have to break right now. We have to go to our midway break. If anybody would like to join us on the air, this is our elongated break, so take this time to write some questions.

54:37

This is our elongated break required of us by Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. So we'd love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

54:46

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with more of John Price and a

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am

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I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

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01:00:05

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And right before the break, or actually before we return to my discussion with John Price on Old Light on New Worship and musical instruments in the worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study.

01:03:29

I don't know why I'm tongue -tied all of a sudden. And in specific, or in particular, we are discussing

01:03:36

Exclusive Acapella Worship Defended. And this is part three of three. We've already discussed in a previous episode the theological aspects of acapella worship or music in general in the worship of God.

01:03:51

We've discussed the historical aspects of this discussion on a separate interview.

01:03:58

And now we are in our third interview with a focus on the psychological study.

01:04:03

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you have a question, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

01:04:13

USA. And I just have to announce a couple of important special events before I return to my discussion with John.

01:04:20

Coming up this January from the 17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

01:04:28

G3 stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory. This is a theologically reformed conference orchestrated by a

01:04:37

Reformed Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia. That's Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, which is spelled

01:04:43

P -R -A -Y apostrophe S, in Douglasville, Georgia, named after a man who started that church in his own barn,

01:04:54

I believe, and his last name was Pray. But this will be held, it outgrew, this conference outgrew the actual facilities that Praise Mill Baptist worships in.

01:05:06

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01:05:23

Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. Speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

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Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, Justin Peters, and Stephen Nichols.

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And if you would like to register for this conference, go to G3conference .com.

01:05:48

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01:08:31

And before you move on from the last thing that you were saying before the break, that musical instruments can actually make people lazy in developing a gift or developing an ability to sing in a pleasant manner since they are reliant upon instruments, drowning them out, at least partially, before we return to that, we have

01:08:57

Mel in Shelby, North Carolina who is a first -time listener, or should I say a first -time questioner, and his question is not really on the subject, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I can include something of my own in his question that relates directly to the subject.

01:09:18

Mel, is his name, Mel, yeah, Mel in Shelby, North Carolina says, how can a lay person within the body of Christ that seems cold towards evangelism, and he's speaking of the congregation, a lay person within a body of believers that seems cold towards evangelism rightly approach their pastor and elders with this burden without seeming accusatory?

01:09:46

It is my duty only to pray, or should I say, is it my duty only to pray and only to work in the harvest fields, or do

01:09:55

I have a duty to speak with them regarding this great lack? Well, the way that I'm going to make this question include something that relates to our topic is how does someone who becomes convicted hey, wait a minute,

01:10:08

I really don't believe we should be using musical instruments in the church, I don't want to be a cause or an element or a person bringing division into the church,

01:10:23

I don't want to be a cause of a church split, I don't want to seem haughty, or I don't want to seem like I am superior to my own pastors and their knowledge, what am

01:10:34

I supposed to do with this situation? And if you could answer not only Mel's question, but include my own.

01:10:42

Yes, well, my thoughts in regard to Mel's question is in a church where there's a coldness to evangelism and he has a desire for it,

01:10:53

I think the first thing would be for him to be a good example in his, in regard to evangelism, to the other brethren in the church, and take opportunities when he has them to speak with the other brethren about who he's witnessing to and his efforts, and try to encourage them as well in that regard.

01:11:19

And I think that he could have a conversation with the pastors of the church without being aggressive or accusatory or trying to encourage them without fault -finding.

01:11:38

I think those would be the best steps for him to take in that situation.

01:11:44

Now, I know that you don't want to be a voice of divisiveness in regard to this topic, but it is true that if someone is overly burdened by a conviction that they have, that it may be time for them to look for another congregation, isn't there?

01:11:57

I mean, it's not the impardonable sin to leave a congregation under good, you know, in a godly way, in a humble way, without, you know, giving an uproar amongst the assembly that causes derision and divisiveness and hostility.

01:12:19

But there does come a time when we have to leave because of our convictions, isn't there? Well, yes,

01:12:26

I would say that those times do come. I think that you know, that would be the last step for us to take.

01:12:37

If we're in a biblical church where the gospel is being preached and the truth is being maintained, we would want to be peacemakers as much as possible.

01:12:48

Paul says, be diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. And so, you know,

01:12:57

I would make every effort possible to try to speak with the other brethren, the leaders of the church, the pastors, and, you know, to leave a church is certainly not an unpardonable sin.

01:13:16

It may not even be a sin. It may be the right thing to do. It may be the only right thing to do in certain circumstances, but I would say that every other avenue should be exhausted to try to peacefully correct errors and problems before that step is taken.

01:13:37

Now, did you have anything further that you wanted to add about the point you were making before the break? You were talking about how musical instruments, rather than being an aid to singing, can actually cripple people by making them lazy and not really learn how to sing more properly, more beautifully, more skillfully.

01:13:54

Right. I think that, like I said, singing is a learned skill, and it's something that develops with time and with practice.

01:14:04

We have to be able to listen to other people sing in order to sing ourselves. If we, professional singers, they learn how to sing by listening to the voices of other people, and that's the way that we learn how to sing well in the church.

01:14:22

Now, if we're in a church where the music is so loud, the band is so loud, we can't hear people singing, that is not going to help us in the development of that skill.

01:14:34

Often, musical instruments are used to mask and cover the lethargy or the inability of the people in their singing.

01:14:45

They're not used really as an aid or a help in the matter. So, I would say singing, there's many examples throughout the history of the church, many examples today where brethren have learned how to sing well, and a cappella singing is a very beautiful thing.

01:15:09

Spurgeon said there's nothing more appealing and no instrument more beautiful than the human voice.

01:15:17

And so, I would say that this is something you know, we can't say that,

01:15:22

I think the question was that in a particular church, people say we need to have the instruments because we're not good singers.

01:15:33

You know, I would go back to the Scriptures and say, well, what do the Scriptures say in this regard?

01:15:38

And as we've seen in our previous discussions, a cappella singing is what should be done in the church.

01:15:47

And we can't disobey God's command. We must improve our own ability to be able to fulfill

01:15:54

His command. And I would also say that we are not, we should not expect and desire to be professional singers in the church.

01:16:11

We're not there to make recordings. We're not there as entertainers.

01:16:16

We're there as worshipers. And Paul says to the Ephesians that we are to be singing and making melody with your heart to the

01:16:26

Lord. And so the worship of the early, the worship, in worship, our melody is in our heart, it's inward.

01:16:35

And the Lord is looking on our hearts and He's seeing what's in our hearts in our singing.

01:16:41

And He's not so much listening to the aesthetic beauty in the way in which we sing.

01:16:47

So we need to kind of refocus our thoughts on what is really the most important thing in our singing.

01:16:54

By the way, I just want to quickly tell Mel, you have also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing today,

01:17:04

Old Light on New Worship. So please give us your full mailing address in Shelby, North Carolina.

01:17:10

And that also goes for Joseph in Nassau County, Long Island. We don't have your full mailing address.

01:17:16

You've also won a free copy of Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments and the

01:17:22

Worship of God, a Theological, Historical and Psychological Study by our guest John Price. So please get those addresses to us as soon as possible.

01:17:31

So cvbbs .com can ship them out to you. I'm sorry, John, I interrupted you there. Well, I think

01:17:38

I had completed my thought on that question. So what else would you like to add in regard to the psychology of worship?

01:17:48

Well, I thought I would just do a little review here on some of the what some of the men of the

01:17:54

Reformation have said. Can I also just say a very quick thing before you go on to that?

01:18:00

When you said we are not there to worship, to record and become professional,

01:18:08

I'm assuming you would not be opposed to a church as long as that did not get out of hand, as long as that did not make them alter a

01:18:18

Biblical concept or try to alter it, that you would have nothing wrong with a church making a recording of their beautiful a cappella congregational singing or anything like that, or a musician outside of worship making a

01:18:34

CD or making a living as some kind of an artist musically selling recordings of his music.

01:18:40

I'm assuming you wouldn't be opposed to that. No, no, I agree, Chris. I think my point was that the priority is our singing from our hearts.

01:18:52

It's what's inward in us that God is most pleased with, and so our attention should be more focused on that.

01:19:03

If we do sing in a way that's not so pleasing to our ears,

01:19:09

Christ can still be well -pleased with what is in our hearts. And so I think that was my point.

01:19:17

Amen. Okay, now you can move on to your point there. Sure, well, what I wanted to do is just read a couple of quotes here from some of the

01:19:25

Reformers on this subject of the influence of music in the church.

01:19:31

John Wycliffe in England in the 1300s, he wrote, he complained about the use of organs, and he said they are one of the sensuous preparations by which their other senses are moved apart altogether from religious feeling.

01:19:49

So Wycliffe complained that the organs of the church, that the organs were used to create these sensuous, emotional feelings, and it was done altogether apart from religious feeling, from true religious feeling.

01:20:09

Music, the use of musical instruments is what men throughout church history have regarded as sensuous, and it creates a sensuous worship service.

01:20:25

The music comes into our ears, we hear it, it vibrates, the sound waves vibrate on our auditory nerve, and we hear it.

01:20:38

It's as physical and material and earthly as an idol that is made of stone.

01:20:46

It's just a different means, and it is as much sensuous as any other part of a false or an idolatrous form of worship.

01:21:00

Let me mention John Calvin for a moment. Calvin said that our singing must be tempered to a gravity befitting the presence of God and angels to give dignity and grace to our sacred actions.

01:21:18

And so Calvin believed that the music of the church, and he was talking about acapella singing and the tunes that are used, he said it should be tempered to the gravity befitting the presence of God and angels.

01:21:33

What Calvin was saying is that when we come to church, the music that we sing, even the acapella tunes, we have to consider the fact that we are in the presence of God and the presence of His throne.

01:21:46

And would we sing these tunes and use this music before the throne of God?

01:21:52

That's what we're supposed to be thinking about when we come into the worship of the church. He said we must, however, carefully beware lest our ears be more intent on the music than our minds on the spiritual meaning of the words.

01:22:10

Songs composed merely to tickle and delight the ear are unbecoming of the majesty of the church and cannot be but displeasing to God.

01:22:24

So Calvin understood how the music, the tunes themselves can actually be used to distract and lead our minds away from the truth.

01:22:35

There was a minister, an American minister, his name is James Ramsey.

01:22:42

He lived in the second half of the 19th century and he has a very helpful quote in this regard.

01:22:50

He says, By a skillful manipulation of the emotional and sensational nature of man in the use of language, music, and ceremonies, individuals and assemblies may be galvanized into the highest excitement of feeling which may be readily mistaken by the subject of it for the fervors of true worship.

01:23:14

Instead of awakening profound and humbling views of the holiness and glory of God, they intoxicate the soul with a dizzy world of undefined emotions of which self is the center and the end.

01:23:29

And I think he really puts his finger on an important line of thoughts here, that an assembly can be galvanized into this very excited state of feeling.

01:23:43

And they mistake this fervor for true worship. And their souls are intoxicated by it.

01:23:52

And the end of it, though, is that self, our own selves and our own feelings and the pleasant experience that we are having, self becomes the center of it and the end of it, rather than God and His glory and His holiness.

01:24:09

So it ends up becoming a complete deception. We've seen the

01:24:15

Christian churches where they have the band up front, the people are under the influence of this music, their emotions are in a high state, their arms are in the air, they're waving back and forth, and they think that this is the presence of the

01:24:34

Holy Spirit, this fervor that they feel is worship, but actually they themselves and their own pleasant experience that they are going through is actually the center and the end of what they're involved in.

01:24:51

So it really can become a very great delusion, and I think it's very common in many parts of the

01:24:58

Christian church in our generation. If I might read one more quote, and this is from Robert Dabney, and we read from him last week, he's got a very helpful quote, and it's similar to the one

01:25:11

I just read. Dabney writes, Man's animal nature is sensitive through the ear to certain sensuous aesthetic impressions from melody, harmony, and rhythm.

01:25:25

These sensuous excitements are purely animal, and are no more essentially promotive of faith, holiness, or light in the conscience.

01:25:34

Sinful men, fallen and blinded, confound them with spiritual affections.

01:25:41

Blinded men are ever prone to imagine that they have religious feelings because they have sensuous animal feelings in accidental juxtaposition with religious places, words, or sights.

01:25:55

This is the pernicious mistake which has sealed up millions of self -deceived souls for hell.

01:26:04

And so, Dabney is saying that men go to church, they're in a religious place, they're connected with religious words and sights, and this their animal, sensual nature is stirred by the use of the musical instruments, and they believe that these are true spiritual affections that they're having, but they are confounding these things, and really what they are experiencing in their sensual excitement does not promote faith, holiness, or the truth in their souls.

01:26:44

Well, we have time now for our final break. It's going to be a lot shorter than the last one, and send in your emails with your questions before we run out of time, if indeed you intend to send them in.

01:26:56

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:27:01

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with John Price and more of his defense of exclusive acapella worship.

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Okay. Now we are back to the final portion of our discussion today with our guest,

01:37:03

John Price, who is speaking on a defense of exclusive acapella worship. And we are discussing his book that is on that theme,

01:37:11

Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments and the Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study, which is a publication of Simpson Publishing Company.

01:37:21

And their website is simpsonpublishing .com, that's S -I -M -P -S -O -N -publishing .com.

01:37:27

And where would you like to take us now in regard to the psychology of the subject today, Pastor John?

01:37:34

Well, I just had a couple thoughts that I wanted to share real briefly. One is that if we looked at the different elements of worship in the

01:37:42

New Testament, we have preaching, and we have singing, and we have prayer.

01:37:48

And if we looked at just those three elements in the proportions in which we find them in the

01:37:54

New Testament, we have many commands and many examples of the Word of God being taught and preached, but we only have three commands in the

01:38:05

New Testament in regard to singing, even acapella singing. We have

01:38:11

Colossians 3 .16, Ephesians 5 .19, and 1

01:38:16

Corinthians 14. And so if things were put in their proportions as they are found in the

01:38:24

New Testament, then the preaching of the Word, the teaching of God's Word would by far outweigh any other element, and the singing, the music of the church would be a relatively minor matter.

01:38:42

But we find everything out of proportion in the present church. We find that the music is often the central element and the central activity of the church.

01:38:54

So things have gotten completely out of proportion in regard to what we find in the

01:39:01

New Testament. Another thing I would mention is when we consider those who play musical instruments in the church, whether they be a piano player, an organ player, or those in a band, they are psychologically unable to worship

01:39:26

God with all their hearts, minds, soul, and strength while they're playing those instruments.

01:39:31

They must focus on their activity of playing the instruments, and they are commanded with all the brethren, with all the church, to worship with the church.

01:39:45

But their their use of their instruments hinders them from being fully engaged in the worship of the church.

01:39:55

So it's psychologically impossible for them to be focused on God and His truth as they should be while they're playing their instruments.

01:40:06

And I would just perhaps at this point read a passage from the

01:40:17

New Testament, and he writes that music can have the effect of creating an emotional state in which the mind is no longer functioning as it should be and no longer discriminating.

01:40:28

The important point is that we should realize that the effect produced in such a case is not produced by the truth.

01:40:40

So when the mind is in this elevated emotional state, it is the mind often that is affected, the emotions are affected, and the mind is not able to focus on the truth of God's Word as it should be, which is contrary to the the purpose of worship, in which all things should be done for edification.

01:41:09

Another quote from Peter Masters, who is, I believe he's still the current pastor of the

01:41:14

Metropolitan Tabernacle in London. That's where Spurgeon was the pastor in the 19th century?

01:41:19

Correct, you are right. And he writes, the conscious sound mind is the vital human organ of worship.

01:41:28

Aesthetic worship, which is the worship in which the music is so dominant, aesthetic worship is completely different.

01:41:36

This aims at stirring the emotions to produce a stimulated, exalted emotional state.

01:41:43

Aesthetic worship takes place when the subject, I'm sorry, the object of the exercise is to achieve a warm, happy feeling, perhaps excitement, and even a sense of God's presence through the earthly, physical aspects of worship, such as music and movement.

01:42:03

And then he goes on to state that the worship leaders want to bypass the rationality and get the feelings going to other means.

01:42:18

They want to stir up sensations in order to produce euphoria. Whether its advocates realize it or not, the contemporary worship movement is the instrument of the hour to pull down the doctrinal walls of Zion.

01:42:34

How the arch enemy of the churches of Christ and of human souls must be straining to bring about such a catastrophe.

01:42:41

The new worship scene is undoubtedly our enemy and not our friend.

01:42:49

And so we have all of these warnings, from the church fathers, the

01:42:56

Puritans, down to the men of the present day, and they all sound the same note.

01:43:05

And their words are very strong that the danger here is that the music can be used to create this atmosphere in the churches, which leads men's away from the truth of the gospel, and it does not produce or enhance faith or sanctification or any of the purposes which should be ours when we are present in the church.

01:43:39

We have an anonymous listener who says, I have family members and friends who are involved in a church that actually will use this issue as a litmus test for salvation.

01:43:56

They believe that if you use musical instruments in the church, you are committing a sin equally as horrific as the sin of Nadab and Abihu who offered strange fire, and therefore we cannot even recognize those who use musical instruments as brothers and sisters in Christ because of the severity of this error.

01:44:20

Do you agree with this, or how should we even approach people who have that thought?

01:44:29

Well, I would not agree with that perspective. I would say that there are many true believers who are in churches where instruments are used, and we always have a spectrum of the use of instruments.

01:44:48

We have everything from the use of a piano or an organ all the way to a full band, and so there's this spectrum of the use of instruments, and certainly some are not so grievous as others in this regard.

01:45:07

Some are a greater violation than others, and so we can't put them all into the same category, and I would say that even in the midst of any of those churches, there are true believers, and the

01:45:26

Lord has his people there. The unfortunate thing is that many times people need to be edified, and they need to be instructed, and they need to actually think through the issues that are involved with this.

01:45:40

They need to go to the Bible, first of all, and study the scriptures, and they need to have their minds instructed in this matter.

01:45:54

I would not declare someone to be a non -believer because they're in a church where there may be instruments being used.

01:46:07

I could imagine from my conversations with you that you would even have a very strong rebuke against people and churches that would use that as a litmus test of salvation.

01:46:20

Yes, I would. I think it's unfortunate that we can go to such extremes and have such harsh and divisive thoughts, so not only would

01:46:38

I not agree, but I would be opposed to such a view quite strongly, and we need to have love that covers a multitude of sins.

01:46:50

Amen. And, you know, this is not directly entwined in the gospel itself.

01:46:57

I mean, people can believe truly in the gospel and truly be regenerate and truly be faithful disciples in many, if not most, aspects, but that does not mean they're going to be perfect in everything else they do.

01:47:13

It doesn't mean that everything they do in their worship service is going to be correct. Well, that's true, and the other point, you know,

01:47:20

I mean, what you're saying is very true, that one can be a true believer and follow

01:47:28

Christ and be in a church atmosphere that is not what it ought to be, and while that may be true, we don't want to be indifferent to that fact or careless about it or negligent.

01:47:41

We should always desire to worship God as we should, and I would also say that it's very possible to be in a church where there's acapella singing, and that aspect of the church worship may be correct and biblical, but there may be many other things that are not what they ought to be.

01:48:00

And just because there's acapella singing in a church doesn't mean the church has reached some state of perfection, and a church should not be arrogant or proud because they've got this aspect of their worship in line with Scripture.

01:48:22

Yeah, you and I are Reformed Baptists, and Reformed Baptists tend to have very close, tightly -knit friendships and relationships and bonds of brotherhood with Presbyterians and other

01:48:35

Reformed brethren who baptize infants, and we're not going to take a flippant attitude towards that difference and act like it's inconsequential or immaterial or not at all serious in any way, but at the same time, we're not going to disown them as brethren and view them as either apostates or as reprobates just because they are in disagreement with us about an issue, albeit a very serious issue.

01:49:06

Right, and I would perhaps argue that that issue may be even more serious than the one we're talking about today.

01:49:14

But I would say that, you know, you and I, we both know Christians who we believe are true believers, and we have fellowship with them, and yet they may be in churches where, you know, we would have disagreements with certain aspects of their worship, and we may be disappointed or grieved that that's the case, and we may want to help them and edify them, but we wouldn't de -Christianize them because of those differences.

01:49:45

And I'd like you to now have about four minutes of uninterrupted time just to unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds about this topic, since we have now come to the conclusion of our third part of our three -part series.

01:50:04

Okay, well, I think what we've been discussing today is the psychology of music, the effect that music has on the emotional state, and that this power, this subtle, seductive power of music can be very detrimental to the goals and the purposes of New Testament worship, which is our edification and our being built up in the faith, a worship that's to be centered on the

01:50:39

Word of God and the truth in our minds. And so the use of instruments and music in the churches today is often with the direct purpose of creating that emotionally charged atmosphere that is a threat, and it endangers the purpose of New Testament worship.

01:51:07

I would say that the great privilege that we have as Christians in worship is to enter into the presence of God, to have communion with all three persons of the

01:51:26

Trinity. We come through a great high priest, our Lord Jesus, who has passed into the heavens and is at the right hand of God.

01:51:34

We, 2 Corinthians 3 and verse 18, when we hear the gospel, we are looking at the face of Christ.

01:51:43

We all with unveiled face are beholding as in a mirror the glory of the

01:51:48

Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory unto glory.

01:51:54

And so our worship in the New Testament church is a worship in spirit and in truth, and that's the glory of the gospel worship.

01:52:03

And our worship is spiritual, it is unseen, it's invisible.

01:52:09

All these things are invisible to the human eyes, and they cannot be known by our outward senses.

01:52:17

And the glory of New Testament worship is not created by outward sights and sounds or by earthly and material aids.

01:52:27

It can only be entered into by faith and by the presence of the Holy Spirit and with the

01:52:34

Word of God. And so we cannot create proper worship with mechanical instruments of music, we cannot enhance it, we cannot be sanctified and edified through these things.

01:52:48

And I think that represents, it diminishes the glory of what really belongs to us as New Testament Christians.

01:52:59

So I think, Chris, the main point of what we've discussed today is that we should pay attention to this issue, and we should not be indifferent or bury our heads in the sand and pretend that there's no dangers here.

01:53:14

The whole history of the church speaks to us about this, and there are many warnings and testimonies from our brethren who have gone before us of the great danger that can be involved in this.

01:53:27

And unfortunately, we're living in a time when too many are just enthralled with this power of music and use it for these purposes.

01:53:39

And I hope that some who have listened to us today will pay attention and be more concerned over it.

01:53:49

We have time for a couple more questions, or at least one more. Another anonymous listener says,

01:53:56

For some time I have become convicted that exclusive a cappella worship is the most biblical form of New Testament worship.

01:54:06

Why is it that so many of our Reformed brethren that have been so consistent on the

01:54:11

Reformation principle of Sola Scriptura veered away from this and seem to be refusing to even be taught in regard to this issue?

01:54:24

I think my own opinion is that too many of us feel the pressure of the modern environment, modern church environment that we're living in.

01:54:36

To become a cappella today is a rarity, and some might think that it's an extreme view, but as we discussed last week, it's been the view of the majority of the church throughout its history, and of the best and the greatest parts of the church.

01:54:58

It's the Reformed tradition, and I think that people are oftentimes afraid of this.

01:55:09

I know that it can be a divisive issue, as we've discussed, and, you know, even to remove a piano from the worship of the church, if a church uses a piano, for the pastors to take the steps of removing that piano, that one step can become a step that would divide the entire church, and that shows us the emotional attachment that the people have to that one instrument of the piano.

01:55:42

So I think it's a difficult and a divisive issue at the same time.

01:55:47

Nevertheless, if we call ourselves Reformed Christians, then we ought to be willing to reform.

01:55:55

One last question, also from another anonymous listener, who says, isn't the

01:56:00

Hebrew word for psalm, isn't the definition for the

01:56:06

Hebrew word for psalm a song sung accompanied by a harp, and if Jesus tells us to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, how could we then therefore conclude that a harp or other musical instruments would not be included?

01:56:20

Well, you can sing the psalm without using the instruments that were commanded in the

01:56:31

Old Testament temple. A psalm is the words, as far as my understanding is, it's the words that are contained in the psalm.

01:56:44

They were sung with musical instruments in the temple worship, but in the New Testament, we sing the psalm without the instruments.

01:56:53

Just because of the fact that the word itself carried on for thousands of years after it was originally intended to be a song sung to a harp doesn't mean that it always means that it will carry that exact definition for perpetuity.

01:57:12

Well, that's true, and if we look at Ephesians 5 .19 and Colossians 3 .16, we are to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, and if the psalms are to be sung, are we to sing the psalms with the instruments, and then we are to sing the hymns and the spiritual songs without the instruments?

01:57:34

That would be inconsistent, so you're correct that just because they were used that way in the

01:57:42

Old Testament doesn't mean that that continues in the New. Well, we are out of time, and I know that if anybody wants more information on Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York, you can go to Facebook and type in Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York, and you will have more information there, and the phone number for Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York is area code 585 -268 -1943.

01:58:14

585 -266 -1943. Did I say that right? 266, that's right.

01:58:22

585 -266 -1943. And of course, the Simpson Publishing Company, the publisher that brought this book we have been addressing into print,

01:58:35

Old Light on New Worship, that website is simpsonpublishing .com, S -I -M -P -S -O -N -publishing .com.

01:58:41

You can also get that book, Old Light on New Worship, at cvbbs .com, cvbbs .com.

01:58:49

And the music that we have been playing from the Wonderful God CD, that can be purchased through acapella .org,

01:58:59

acapella .org. And you can also get that through cvbbs .com

01:59:05

as well. And I want to thank you so much, John, for this fascinating three -part series that we have participated in.

01:59:12

I look forward to you joining us again on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, either to revisit this topic or get involved in another one.

01:59:21

And I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being such an informative and fascinating guest. I've enjoyed it,

01:59:28

Chris. It's been great talking with you. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who wrote in.

01:59:33

And guess what? I have a surprise for you. Everybody who listened today and wrote in, I should say, a question, is also going to get for free the

01:59:41

Wonderful God CD by Praise and Harmony Acapella Worship, from which we've been playing songs during our broadcast.

01:59:49

I hope that you all remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater