December 11, 2017 Show with John Price on “Exclusive A Cappella Worship Defended” (Part # 3 of 3: “Psychology”)

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Introducing John Price and the Exclusive A Cappella Worship Debate

Tonight we are going to be returning for part three of three parts, the final part that we are conducting for our discussion on an exclusive a cappella worship defense. And our guest to do that today is John Price, who is pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Rochester, New York, who has already been on the program twice to discuss this.

He has written a book on this theme titled Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments, and the Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study. So therefore, since this is part three, we are going to be discussing a psychological study.

But before that, I want to whet our appetites, not only for a cappella worship, but also for the Christmas season. So I hope you enjoy this song that will be familiar to all of you, I'm sure.

Joy to the world, the Lord is come. Let earth receive her King. And heaven and nature sing. And heaven and nature sing. Joy to the earth, the Savior reigns. Let men their songs employ. The sounding joy.

For the sins and sorrows grow. Nor thorns infest the brightest pound.

Praise God, that was Joy to the World from the Wonderful God CD by Praise and Harmony A Cappella Worship, a new CD from the A Cappella Company. And if you would like more information about that CD, and if you'd like to purchase it, go to acapella .org.

That's A-C-A-P-P-E-L-L-A dot org. But now, let me introduce, for the third time, as he returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for Exclusive A Cappella Worship Defended, it is Pastor John Price. It's great to have you back.

Good to be back, Chris.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, whether you agree with Pastor Price, that only acapella singing is to be involved in regard to the music portion of our worship, or whether you disagree, perhaps even adamantly so, you can send in a question to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on this subject, or your congregation disagrees with your denomination on this issue, or your pastor agrees with the denomination on this issue. Well, you can feel free to remain anonymous for certain reasons like that.

But if it's not a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. And so, this discussion is really based on your book, Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments and the Worship of God.

And of course, someone looking at that title might not necessarily know, and perhaps if they didn't know, you wouldn't know at all, that this was a defensive a cappella worship, because it mentions musical instruments and the worship of God in the subtitle.

But that is because, in your research, you are proving from the scriptures, and from history, although history is not a proof, it's just a support to your biblical arguments, that musical instruments, other than the human voice, are not to be used in the worship of God since the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Am I correct?

Music, Mind, and Emotion in Worship

And there we, on this subject, find that God did command the use of instrumental worship. We are to look now to the Lord Jesus, as in the New Testament, to continue what we call the music. And then last time, in the time, it was quite surprising that musical instruments, by many, even during that period of time, the Reformation removed them.

And then we are again today. And today we're dealing with the cycle of music. By that, what we mean, what I mean, is that music, and we all know the influence of music, and that is, generally, the mind has to be free.

In John chapter 7, the use of our minds, as we are reading of the scriptures, even when we come to the use of the mind, 1 Corinthians 14 and verse 15, his mind must understand, he says, and then, out of that word of Christ, an admonishing word, in your hearts, an admonishing ministry, and it's able, without the use of our minds, to create this primary, comes from our minds, under the, you're speaking of the use of instruments, you know, any kind of instrument, evangelical church, musical, and often times,.

Yeah, in fact, this is not just exclusively in regard to churches that have rock bands. I have been in a very well-known Reformed church that I'm sure you instantly would recognize the name of it, because it's globally known, and known for its biblical orthodoxy.

I have loved the teaching that has come out of the pulpit of that church for decades, and have been to conferences that have really had a tremendous impact upon my life, but that church is known for a traditional, very traditional, conservative brass band, and I can tell you, without exaggerating, that I can vividly remember being there for a conference, and during the singing portion of the conference, the brass band was beautifully playing, but I could not even hear myself singing.

I could not hear anybody in the audience singing, nor could I hear even myself singing, and that might have been a blessing that they hear me, but I couldn't hear anybody. So, I mean, this is not just something that's exclusively a problem for people that use rock music, or what might be considered, quote-unquote, worldly, secular music.

You know, this is a problem that we all face, and we, of that nature, and then I come back a couple, can be a mechanism. When I say this, I'm not saying that we're nuts. It must be the mind that is comprehending light and the emotions.

And you just said something that made a very important thought pop into my head, and now I can't remember what it was, but you were speaking about the... Oh, I know what I was going to say. I was going to say, if you are a person that is devoid of emotion in worship, or in evangelism, or in anything involved with your Christian faith, that is a seriously dangerous sign that you aren't even regenerate, if you don't have any emotion at all.

I mean, you may have an emotion that people cannot readily recognize who are surrounding you, because of the fact that we all do have our own personality traits that are morally neutral, some of them.

I mean, some people think that you are dead spiritually if you are not jumping up and down and clapping your hands during a worship service. But what I mean is, if you are not genuinely moved with some kind of emotion ever during a worship service, there's something seriously and deadly wrong with you.

And the way people sing, it is made very evident whether or not they are robust with a God-honoring emotion. You know, the singing will certainly suffer if you're not filled with some kind of an emotion of praise and thanksgiving and gratitude towards God.

And I might just make a few comments about this whole subject of the thousands of years. And then, and they believe that music and Plato believed that the effect of music on the human being, he made this statement, let me make the care not who make music has than the laws.

And we know this from manipulate and responses. Music is used in various kinds of psychotherapy. It's known in the medical community that music affects every single music when we, and those very under the ears and even in our bodies.

Now, I know that you believe in sola scriptura. So just to reiterate what we mentioned the last time during our discussion on history and the historical data on music in the worship of God, you are not saying that any of these things that you are bringing up, these citations, these are not infallible.

These are not what you base your opinions on, but they are very interesting things from history and even from contemporary science that support what you're saying. You're not saying that just because Plato or Socrates or somebody said something that it's true.

You're just using evidence that supports what you're saying.

That's correct. And what I'm saying is that what we experience, individuals today, that we should be used, many millions of people by the music, by the music spirit.

Yeah, that's right.

And very often, remember one man I spoke to.

Right.

No, no, you're not. It's not the Holy Spirit that's come down. When the music is on your emotional stew.

Yes, goosebumps on your arms are not evidence of the Holy Spirit being present in the room.

That's true. Yeah, I quote some of these different men because what we go through.

Yeah, it was interesting years ago when I interviewed Dr. T. David Gordon, who is the author of the book, Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns. And Dr. Gordon is not an exclusive acapella advocate, but he said something very interesting.

He said a lot of interesting things during the course of the interview, but one of them was in response to someone asking a question that you were asked the last time you were on is, are melody and rhythm morally neutral?

And are even instruments themselves morally neutral? And Dr. Gordon, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have his book open in front of me, but he in a part of his answer said, can you imagine you're at a funeral of a precious loved one, and then all of a sudden as a part of the music that is provided at the funeral, several men stand up and start playing kazoos.

You might be highly offended by that, and it shows you that sounds can alter your state of mind as to whether you are at peace or whether you are angry or whether you're laughing or whether you're feeling sensual.

The music definitely is an aid to change one's state of mind and emotion, and that is why people, when they have musical instruments involved in anything that they're doing, they will gear the way the music is played and the actual music that is played itself toward the event to make it appropriate.

It's interesting how all military music has a very similar sound to it. Am I right?

That's true.

Even a lot of secular music in clubs and things like that will motivate women to dance in a much more sensual way than they normally might for a different reason, like a square dance is quite a different experience than being in a nightclub.

Not that I go to nightclubs now, but I did go to quite a few of them before I was saved.

All of these things are evidence to bring the people into emotion too.

We have to go to our first break right now, so we'll bring some of those very things up when we return, God willing. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back with John Price and a defense of exclusive acapella worship right after these messages from our sponsors. One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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The Power of Music to Shape Emotion and Worship

That was Silent Night, obviously,.

One of the world's most favorite Christmas hymns that is sung in many languages all over the globe this time of year. And that was just one of the many songs and just part of that song. That wasn't the entire Silent Night version on the CD.

But this is the Wonderful God CD from Praise and Harmony Acapella Worship. And if you want more information about that, go to acapella .org, a-c-a-p-p-e-l-l-a .org. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is John Price, and we are discussing his book, Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments and the Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study.

And the actual theme of our discussions have been the last three times, including today, that John has been on the program. The actual theme is an exclusive acapella worship defense, and this is part three of three on the psychological aspect of this.

We had the theological aspect or the biblical aspect addressed in our first discussion. We had the historical aspect of this discussion on a week ago, today. And today we are discussing the psychological aspect.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. A couple of very brief things that I want you to clarify also is that I know you do not believe that musical instruments are never to be used by Christians and that you believe that it is completely appropriate for Christians to have concerts outside of the ordinary gathered worship of the church, that you believe that musicians are to use the gifts that they have been given by God to their fullest extent and with much gusto and joy and celebration.

They are to use these instruments, even if they are using them in a private act of worship in your home or in a devotional sense, using them at some point when you are worshiping with your family. You are not anti-musical instrument.

It's just that you do not believe that the biblical record or the historical record would lend one to, with confidence, use these musical instruments in the church during an ordinary gathered assembly for worship.

That's correct. Music in general, he has given us, and whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, and that would include using them in the private speaking here about what we find in the New Testament.

Those of our listeners who missed last week, they might be quite astonished to know that the only reformer that believed in the liberty to use musical instruments in worship was Luther. All of the other reformers were unanimously opposed to that.

And even if you trace the history of Protestantism up through the present day, the only stream within Protestantism, or should I say streams, plural, that used musical instruments prior to the 19th century were the Lutherans and the Anglicans.

That all of the other streams of Protestantism were unanimously opposed to it. And the first musical instrument used in a Presbyterian church in America was not until the 19th century.

That's correct. ...in the Roman Catholic to bring in...

A Congregation's Singing and the Use of Instruments

Now, I don't know if you wanted to continue something on the psychological aspect right now as far as a thought that you might have in your head, but we do have a listener who has a question relevant to that if you'd like to take the time to answer it.

Sure.

Okay.

Sure, we can do that.

All right. We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, One thing that has always bothered me is when there is an invitation at the end of a worship service and you will have someone playing an organ or tinkling on a piano, creating some kind of a mood that would soften the heart of the individual in the audience to in some way aid in compelling them to come to Christ.

This seems to be a blatant form of manipulation of the emotions in mind, and I know that you are against musical instruments altogether in the worship, but do you have anything specifically to say about that?

...for example, at that particular... and that is the... that atmosphere to make the people... bring them into some kind of a calmed...

By the way, Chris, you've won a free copy of the book we are discussing, Old Light on New Worship, so make sure we have your full mailing address so CVBBS .com can mail that out to you. This is a beautiful hardback book.

How many pages is it? Something close to 300, correct?

Two pages.

Yeah.

And I hope that you enjoy that. And just to add a little bit to Christopher's question, I'm assuming you might, maybe you wouldn't, I'm assuming you might even have a problem if during the conclusion of a sermon where a minister is giving an appeal to come to Christ, even though we who are Reformed don't invite people to come forward typically, although there are some that do this, but we don't typically invite people to come forward and have what is known as an altar call or anything like that, but we do have invitations for people to repent and come to Christ.

Now, how would you feel about while the minister was doing that, an a cappella group or perhaps even designated people from the congregation started just singing, you know, oohs and ahs in some kind of angelic a cappella choir sound to do the same kind of thing?

I mean, that could be equally manipulative when it comes to emotions, couldn't it?

Absolutely. And I think that and hearing by the Word of Christ, we find that the apostles and the churches were not musicians, and so, you know, my belief would be methods that we find in the New Testament, and so when the Gospels cannot be manipulated...

Now, you have admitted that this section of your book, although it's an important section, is the most difficult or was the most difficult for you to write because of the fact that it does largely depend upon subjective thought on it.

I mean, you cannot prove with infallibility or inerrancy some of these conclusions that you've drawn, correct? As far as just the psychological aspect.

And certainly be ignorant of... Yes, definitely. If we go back to the time of the church fathers, Clement, he had a few music in the church, and when we're talking, as we noted last time, in the church, and they were very strong against the use of any instruments.

And Clement says,. "...they indeed retain, but not so in the over-delicate modulation of the voice and its rivalry which...". And he writes, "...the exciting riffs and dances of the bassinets and become indecent and burlesque by the noise of all these instruments, the instruments of deception.".

Now, when Clement made that pagan cult, they would use music that would not be used in the church. "...be on guard by eye and ear.". He says, "...music, its sensual and insipid and the use of music to create said that these things should...".

"...and then also ought not to be weakened, often leads me astray.". Now, he's speaking here, not just that. When he sang, sometimes his mind was led astray because he enjoyed the music that he was singing.

Wow. In other words, when he's more moved by the melody that he's singing and he's speaking of acapella...

In fact, there is a...

...attracted to the music than that he is singing.

Yeah, there is a listener who has a question that... I'm sorry if I interrupted you there, but there's a listener that has a direct question related to that.

Okay.

Let's see here. We have... We have Joseph in Nassau County, Long Island, New York who asks, How do you respond to the minister or just a Christian brother or sister who says, We need that piano or we need those instruments because the congregation where I am is filled with untalented people and the sound of the singing is horrible.

So, I can even remember a minister in an exclusively acapella congregation who said to me, Nothing better than an acapella singing when you got good voices. Nothing worse when you don't. But, I mean, how do you respond to that?

I understand. And the same thing, the use of instruments is not really and is dominant. Are often people who have never really and they've never really practiced music in the church. People in the congregation are into people.

It's entertainment.

And we have to break right now. We have to go to our midway break. If anybody would like to join us on the air, this is our elongated break, so take this time to write some questions. This is our elongated break required of us by Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida.

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The Effect of Instruments Versus Congregational Singing

Ah, that was another beautiful song from the Wonderful God CD by Keith Weincaster's Acapella Company, Praise and Harmony Acapella Worship, and we want you to know that if you'd like to order this CD, you can go to acapella .org, A-C-A-P-P-E-L-L-A, that's A-C-A-P-P-E-L-L-A, and right before the break, or actually before we return to my discussion with John Price on Old Light, on New Worship, Musical Instruments in the Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study, I don't know why I'm tongue-tied all of a sudden, and in specific, or in particular, we are discussing Exclusive Acapella Worship Defended, and this is part three of three.

We've already discussed in a previous episode the theological aspects of acapella worship, or music in general in the worship of God. We've discussed the historical aspects of this discussion on a separate interview, and now we are in our third interview with a focus on the psychological study.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you have a question, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA.

And I just have to announce a couple of important special events before I return to my discussion with John. Coming up this January, from the 17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

G3 stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory. This is a theologically-reformed conference orchestrated by a Reformed Baptist church in Douglasville, Georgia. That's Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, which is spelled P-R-A-Y apostrophe S, in Douglasville, Georgia, named after a man who started that church in his own barn, I believe, and his last name was Pray.

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I will be there again, God willing, with an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth. And it's on the theme, Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. Speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, Justin Peters, and Stephen Nichols.

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Never, ever, ever siphon money out of the giving that you are accustomed to, to the church where you are a member. And never take food off of your family's dinner table, if you're struggling to make ends meet.

Those are two commands of God, providing for your church and home. Providing for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not a command of God, but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you don't want us to go away, if you love our program, please donate to us as often and as much as you possibly can.

And if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail dot com, and put advertising in the subject line, no matter what it is you want to advertise, whether it's your church, parachurch ministry, business, professional practice, a doctor's office, a law firm, a chiropractic firm, dental firm, whatever it is, just a special event you're having, as long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible with the theology we express on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I would be more than happy to help you launch an ad campaign, because we surely could use the advertising dollars as I just mentioned.

And that is also the email address to send in a question for our guest, John Price, on Exclusive A Cappella Worship Defended. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And before you move on from the last thing that you were saying before the break, that musical instruments can actually make people lazy in developing a gift or developing an ability to sing in a pleasant manner, since they are reliant upon instruments, drowning them out at least partially, before we return to that, we have Mel in Shelby, North Carolina, who's a first-time listener, or should I say, a first-time questioner.