October 30, 2018 Show with Jeff Downs on “From Drugs to Delivered”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30th day of October 2018.

I'm delighted to have for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio someone whom

I have known for quite a number of years, going at least all the way back to the origins of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in 2005 when broadcasting out of New York.

But in all this time that I have known Jeff Downs, this will be our first interview. Some of you may recognize his name immediately from blog articles he has written for Alpha and Omega Ministries.

That's the ministry of Dr. James R. White. And he is going to be installed officially this

Friday as the pastor of Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the

Presbyterian Church in America, also known as the PCA, in Mechanicsville, Virginia.

And today we are going to be addressing from drugs to delivered. And we're also going to be announcing the upcoming conference at Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church in Mechanicsville, Virginia, where Pastor Jeff will be speaking on that very same theme, alongside of Lowell Ivey, who we had interviewed yesterday on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Lowell Ivey, a former white supremacist gang member in prison who was given true freedom in Christ when being saved in prison, and having remained there for nine subsequent years as a

Christian. And we also had Fred Sloan, one of the other speakers at the conference, coming up this

Saturday. And he was speaking about why a prison ministry is necessary.

So we hope that as many of you as possible attend that conference this Saturday. But let me now introduce you for the very first time as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeff Downs.

Hello, Chris. Jeff Downs here. So grateful for the opportunity to be on with you. It's a privilege.

It is the first time we're talking. And yeah, let's see, back in 2005, let me see, in 2006,

I had James. I was attending an OPC in Middletown, Pennsylvania.

And I had James come into a conference with Stephen J. Nichols. And then he took me up, or I took

James up to Gettysburg. And he gave me a tour and was able to tell me all about the war and had a great time with him then.

But I think my time listening to James goes back to the early, early 90s.

Yeah, I first became acquainted with James in the 90s and became a friend that has formed a friendship that has lasted all these years in 1996, or perhaps a little bit before that, 95.

The first debate that I arranged for him with Jerry Matitick's Roman Catholic apologist, who is now a

Sedevacantist Roman Catholic apologist, which is, there's probably about, I don't know, three of them in the world.

But I can recall for quite a number of years seeing your blog articles on the

Alpha and Omega Ministries website. How did that meeting take place between you and James originally, and how did you begin working with him?

Well, I guess just been listening to his podcast, and then I wanted to get him out to Pennsylvania.

I believe that's where he grew up, is the Pennsylvania area. Well, yeah, he spent a few of his childhood years in Mechanicsburg.

Mechanicsburg, yeah. So I got him out there for a conference, and he spoke many hours when he talks about any complaints, because I had him speak for just many hours throughout the day, and he was worn out.

And so that's originally how I got in touch with him. And then over the years,

I had a blog or website called the Resource Center for Theological Research, and there

I was cataloging books and journal articles, new articles that were coming out at Postal Mine, and now you don't need to do that, because they have

RSS feeds for those kind of things. But I think I was the only one doing that kind of work at the time, and I was passing on resources to James.

And at the time, Pyromaniacs, you know, had their blog team, and then

James decided to put a team together, and I was just part of it, and so grateful for that.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, you had the honor of having a caricature drawn of you, along with James White and his other team members.

Yeah, and I had the privilege of having the peace sign over James White's head.

That was you, that's right. Well, what a privilege,

I mean, you know, I'm not worthy of doing those kind of things, but I was so grateful for the opportunity to be a part of that.

Well, now tell us about Knox Reform Presbyterian Church, which is a

PCA church, a church in the Presbyterian Church in American denomination, in Mechanicsville, Virginia. That's correct.

We're the same presbytery that Fred Sloan's in, the James River Presbytery Church, a small church about 20 miles, or 20 minutes from Richmond, and I've been here since July, but will be installed as the pastor on Friday.

Just a small fellowship at this point, but if anyone's listening and has some children, we're in dire need of some children.

Mine are the only ones here. My boy is 16, I have a daughter who's 15, and a son that's 11, and they're the only children here, so we could use some children.

We need to grow this church, and children are a great way to do that. Small church,

I think they've only had two pastors, I'm the third pastor, and hold to the regulative principle.

We have a simple worship service. We come to give glory and honor to God and to God alone.

Recently, I received a letter in the mail from a local church, and I don't remember its name, and it doesn't matter, but the letter was introducing the church to the community, and it was all about the rock and band that they had, and the messages that were relevant to your life, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, it's very appealing.

It's very appealing to people, and I understand that, but why not just Christ? We preach

Christ being crucified. We want you to come because we want you to worship the

Lord. Now, you'll benefit from that. You'll be blessed by it, I guarantee it, but we're not coming for us, right?

We're coming to give glory and praise and honor to God, and yeah, it's, you know, thinking about these things, and you know, the

Lord grows the church. We understand that, but He uses means, and you know, how do we reach the community?

A small church like us with no children, really, how do we reach the community to bring kids into the church?

When you have churches like that, you know, churches that are showing movies and things like that, it's very difficult, but we pray and hope the

Lord will bless us. Like I said, we are sponsors.

We have one service at this point. We meet 11 o 'clock for worship, 9 30 for Sunday school.

Currently we have one of our elders teaching through the outstanding job, and then in December, I'll pick up the study, and we're going to talk about worship, why we do what we do, and see how long that lasts, but currently we're doing that.

I just got done preaching on the Beatitudes. We, let's see, this past Sunday, I preached on Psalm 133, and this coming

Sunday, I'll preach on the Church at Ephesus, Revelation chapter 2, and then

I'll probably start a series on Jonah. That's my habit of preaching, is preaching through books, but just being here for a little while, just jumping all over the place right now, but we'll get into a book, probably

Jonah, in about maybe two weeks here. Great, and anybody who wants to find out more about the

Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church in Mechanicsville, Virginia, you can go to knoxreformedprez .org.

K -N -O -X -R -E -F -O -R -M -E -D -P -R -E -S .org.

knoxreformedprez .org. Now, tell us a little bit about the conference that you have coming up at Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church in Mechanicsville, Virginia this

Saturday. Okay, Chris, if you don't mind, before I jump into that, let me mention also, just in relation to that, this conference and what my idea is.

Through the years of living in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and around that area, we put on,

I was able to put on some seminars and conferences on cults and world religions and the occult and had various speakers, and I love doing that.

I love putting on conferences and seminars. I love having other people come and speak on topics that I'm not an expert on, but I know other people are.

And so my goal is to continue to do that here, and so this is one of the conferences or seminars that I'm putting on.

I'm hoping in March of 2019, March, April maybe, of doing a conference that we did in, you know what,

I think I had James Wedding 2004 at that OPC. In 2006, I had a, we did a conference called a

No Other Gods Conference, and I had probably 10 speakers come. Eddie Dalkor was actually one of those guys that came and spoke.

I'm hoping to do something like that in March or April of next year, a smaller scale, but I have a couple speakers come in and speak on the cults and the occult, atheism.

That, again, that'll be the following year. I'm hoping that'll be an annual conference, actually. Great, yeah, and judging from the fact that your email address includes the words countercult,

I guess that's a subject that's near and dear to your heart. That's right. Actually, I got that,

I had to quickly come up with an email address for something, a podcast I was, had what was called the

Countercult Apologize Podcast or something like that. I did maybe four interviews, and I had to have an email address.

Anyway, so the conference we've got coming up this coming Saturday. Goodwill will be installed on Friday, and I have

Lowell come in to preach at that installation service, and just some of these, this is how these things happen.

Just out of the blue, I thought, hey, why not try to put a seminar together? Fred's in the area, just getting to know

Fred a little bit, and he loves prison ministry. Fred is familiar with Lowell.

I don't know if they've ever met, but I thought, well, why not see if we could put something together, and both men were willing to do so, and I'll be here, so I'll be able to be a speaker as well.

So that's how that came about. That's going to be on Saturday, November 3rd, 9 o 'clock to 11 30.

I wanted to make it short, didn't want to take up the whole day, and actually I wanted to get, you know,

Lowell is a pastor, so I wanted him to get back to his home in a good time.

So again, in the morning there, we'll have, since we're having that ordination or the installation service on Friday, we're going to have a reception after that.

We'll have, you know, some food, and I'm assuming some of that food will be left over, and then we'll have also some donuts and coffee and those kind of things on Saturday morning to give people some refreshments, so.

Great. That's how it came about, really. Lowell is going to be in the area, Fred's already here, and, you know, why not try to put something together?

Sounds great. Well, once again, go to knoxreformedprez .org if you want details about the conference, and if you want to hear the interviews that I conducted with the two other speakers, they should be already archived at the ironsharpensironradio .com

website, but if you go to past shows podcast, and you type in the search engine the first interview with Fred Sloan, you just need to type in S -L -O -A -N, and you'll get that interview, and if you want to listen to the interview with Lowell Ivey, type in I -V -E -Y, and you will get that interview, and both of them were wonderful interviews.

I really enjoyed both of them immensely, and I look forward to having both of those men back on the show.

Well, you have a testimony that is not far apart from my own in regard to the fact that the

Lord rescued you from addiction. In my case it was alcohol, in your case it was drugs,

I'm assuming, and so tell us about your story, your entire story, beginning from the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in as a child, if any, and what tragic circumstances took place later in your life that led you into drugs, and eventually we want to hear the good news about how the

Lord providentially used circumstances in your life that drew you to himself, and eventually you were saved by his precious blood.

Amen, praise God for that. I grew up in a non -Christian home in Essex, Maryland.

I grew up with four stepbrothers, had one blood brother, so grew up with five brothers in the home, and I was the youngest, and my parents divorced when

I was younger, about three years old, and then remarried other people, and so I had a stepmom,

I had a mother and a stepfather. I don't know if those kind of things really affected me.

You know, looking back on it, I could say they didn't, but maybe they did, just don't know.

But grew up in a home with no religious background whatsoever, never even thought about it, never heard about Christ or the

Bible or anything like that, and then when my dad remarried, he remarried a

Roman Catholic, and so we, as her sons, went to a

CCD, went to a, I guess a Catholic middle school and high school, and then when they, when my dad married her, we had to go to CCD, which was,

I believe, a Wednesday evening, maybe two hours sitting in class, and hearing about the

Bible and Christ and other things. And at that point, I was already involved in drugs and had no interest whatsoever, again, not growing up with any of that, and then being forced to go, um, had no interest and didn't want to be there.

I was already involved in drugs and certainly didn't want to be sitting in class like that. So, um, but I had to go.

I didn't have a choice. I mean, I kind of rebelled and maybe my dad would kick me out, but that wasn't an option in my mind,

I guess, at the time. I was still young. So we're talking elementary school all year.

Um, back then, uh, you know, that was the 80s, late 80s. I was, I was into breakdancing, and I was pretty good at it.

You are the only Reformed, you're the only Reformed breakdancer I know of. Well, I say

I'm pretty good at it, so, but I don't, I haven't tried it. I'm sure,

I'm sure I would break a lot of things if I attempted breakdancing. That's right, that's right.

Um, so, uh, that was, again, elementary school and, and actually we had, uh,

I was, uh, good enough that we, we went to, we were going to a particular school to do, it was a couple of friends of mine were going to breakdance for the school, and I ended up breaking my thumb and not being able to go.

I was practicing and was standing on my hands and, uh, broke my thumb doing it.

So, uh, anyway, um, I, I really can't remember what age

I was. It was nine or ten. I know it was, it had, it had, it was elementary school that I started using because by the time

I hit middle school, uh, I got kicked out, uh, for marijuana, uh, in sixth grade.

So when I entered middle school, I don't even know how long I was there, but I got kicked out and, um, had a, had a huge, uh, vial of marijuana that didn't even get to smoke and got caught with it and, and, uh,

I think they got expelled by that, at that time in Baltimore County schools they, you know, one time you're, you're expelled.

And, uh, so I did that. I went to night school to get back into school and, and then we had ended up moving to Pasadena, Maryland, um, near, outside of Annapolis.

And then it was the whole cycle over again, uh, just getting, getting, meeting people that used and, you know, once you, when you use drugs, uh, somehow you find people that, that use drugs.

And, uh, so at that time though, so back in Maryland, uh, or back in, in Baltimore County, I was smoking pot and drinking, that's all

I was doing, all I was familiar with. And then once I got to Pasadena, Maryland, got introduced to, uh, harder drugs, acid, um, started snorting coke.

I never did shoot up, always afraid of needles and, and never even got close to heroin, um, um, but, uh, you know, smoking crack and, and all that.

So, so that cycle started again, uh, went to, went to, went to school up in that area and got caught with drugs again, got kicked out.

Well, my dad, you know, he's, you know, my dad was the kind of guy that, you know, hard -nosed guy, you're going to go to school no matter what you're, until you're 18, you have to go to school.

If you're living at my house, you're going to go to school. So I got put in a school called the

Phoenix Center, which was just for bad kids. And, um, you know, just wasn't, it wasn't a pretty scene there, acted up a lot, um, acted pretty crazy in school.

So they kept me there in there, but, um, and actually, uh,

I mean, long story short here, uh, eventually got, um, uh, caught with, um, actually what happened was a friend of mine thought

I was going to, to kill him, uh, over some drugs. He went and told the cops, I'm shortening the story at this point, went and told the cops and, uh, went to jail for a night.

But dad at that point said, uh, look, I'll bail you out, but this is the first and last time. And, um,

I was still attending high school at the point, at that point. And I went to school that Monday and I told this counselor that we used to hang with, uh, we were, me and a friend of mine, we would, uh, drop acid and this guy, this guidance counselor would invite us into his office.

And I think it was, it was a way to get to know us and, you know, try to get us off of drugs, but we'd go in there and trip out.

And well, eventually. And so that, when I got busted like that, I, um, I went to him and I said,

I'm, I'm willing to go into treatment. And at the time I didn't know if I, you know, it's been a long time.

So I don't know if I was just scared to go, cause I was maybe facing some jail time while I really wanted to get clean.

Either way, uh, I got sent away to a drug treatment center for, I think it was 60 days and got out and went into Narcotics Anonymous and got cleaned through NA.

And, uh, you know, again, I'm short in the story there, but met a Christian in Narcotics Anonymous and that's how

I got introduced to the Lord. It's through him. Praise God.

And, uh, well, tell us about how you discovered and embraced Reform Theology.

Well, I got, I got clean in 1991 and, and right away, um, well

I say right away, but after I came to know the Lord, I started listening to the Bible Answer Band.

And so back then, if you remember back then, that's early 90s. Oh yeah,

I definitely remember those days. And my friend Ken Samples was on the team with Hank Enegroff.

This is before Hank was doing the show solo. He had several people typically on with him,

Ron Rowe, Elliot Miller. Yeah.

And so, and then that, that was also when every Friday they'd play Walter Martin. And, uh, so I started listening to that pretty much again, right away after I got converted.

And, uh, so I got, got involved in countercult ministry, uh, calling up them, you know, back then you could, and maybe they,

I haven't seen any, but maybe they still do have Mormons have, um, commercials where they're promoting the

Book of Mormon and we, you know, get their number off TV, call them and set up a meeting and have a, have a little battle with them.

Uh, and at that time, uh, you know, probably wasn't, we probably didn't have a heart for the people.

You know, we, Hey, we know a little bit about Mormonism. It's kind of like that cage stage of cowardism. But anyway,

I got involved in countercult ministry. I thought that's what I was going to do for the rest of my life. Um, and went to, went to Lancaster Bible College in 95.

And, and then, uh, you know, it's not, that's where Stephen, uh, Jay Nichols used to be, correct?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh, when he came on board, um, so I started in 95,

I think he came in 97 and, you know, he comes in, he didn't have his doctorate at that point, but he was close to it.

Blonde beach, blonde hair guy looking like he was 19 years old. Like he's 19 years old.

Well, I, I, I spoke to a friend of mine. He said, well, he does have a little bit of wrinkle now in his face.

Well, very little though. He's a youthful looking person. Um, so, uh, anyway, that's, that's, uh, went to college in 95, 97.

Um, 97, I got married and my wife and we were attending Westminster Presbyterian Church there.

You're probably familiar with that church. In Lancaster. Yeah. I've been there for a

Ligonier conference, at least one. Yep. A beautiful church.

They built the new sanctuary. It's a beautiful sanctuary. Um, but you know, so I, it wasn't, my introduction to the

Reformed faith was, was really, you know, that's, that's where I'm going. I'm going to Westminster Presbyterian Church.

That's what I'm being taught. I remember being, when I was in college, even before that, uh, just reading the

Bible and having debates with roommates. Um, now that I look back on it, I was defending the

Reformed faith, not knowing it at the time. Um, so it was more like, it wasn't, it wasn't like I was reading

Ray Bettner or anything. It was just, I was reading the Bible and, and attending, uh,

Westminster Presbyterian Church and that's just how it was. Now I do remember, uh, back in, actually in the early days, listening to the

Whitehorse Inn and this is when they were on the radio at that, at that point, and it was an hour -long program.

Yeah, I remember it well. And I would sit in the park. I used to, I was attending the Baptist church and I'd sit in the parking lot in the evening, listen to those guys and go into the

Baptist church, uh, and, and I do remember them discussing, uh, grace and, uh, you know, what, what

I, you know, exactly what they were saying. I don't remember, but I remember listening to that and thinking, you know, it was almost, you know, that second conversion kind of thing that, that, uh, some people talk about regarding, regarding the

Reformed faith, uh, just realizing, you know, it's not of me, it's all of God and God's grace and His love being poured upon me.

And it was, you know, it was almost a, like a second conversion kind of thing. So that,

I do have that, that, um, memory, but, but I, again, I think it was just more of reading the

Bible and, and attending the, you know, the good preaching of the Word of God at Westminster Presbyterian Church.

And, uh, well, going back to your being transformed by Christ, uh, when we come back from our break,

I'd like you to give us some details about, uh, how you, you know, completely set the drugs aside.

Uh, uh, we would like to know if there was a period of strong temptation to return and all those kinds of things that maybe...

Yeah, like I said, I skipped a couple things, but yeah, we'll come back to that. Right. And we're going to be going to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeff Downs after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the

Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today is

Jeff Downs. He is the newly installed pastor, as of this

Friday, at Knox Reform Presbyterian Church, which is a congregation in the

PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, in Mechanicsville, Virginia. We are discussing his testimony, From Drugs to Delivered, which is also one of the speaking themes that Jeff will be conducting at the upcoming conference at Knox Reform Presbyterian Church in Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania, Virginia, I'm sorry.

This is Mechanicsburg here, so I kind of got that mixed up a little bit. He's going to be joined by Fred Sloan and Lowell Ivey at that conference, and I had both

Fred and Lowell on Friday and yesterday on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I hope you look up their interviews on the archive at irontripandzionradio .com

as soon as you have time after this live program, of course. We don't want you to leave this live program to go to those pre -recorded shows.

If you have any questions, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Before I go to our listener question, we actually have a listener question from Dr.

George Cipioni, who is an adjunct professor, and he also is the director of the

Biblical Counseling Institute at Reform Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

He has a question for you. I did not know, perhaps he doesn't know you personally, but it's interesting that he's...

No, he does. I had class with him at Greenville Seminary. Okay, great. Well, before we go to his question, pick up where we had you being delivered from your drug addiction, and I know that not every single

Christian is a cookie cutter of other Christians when it comes to many, if not most, things in life.

We may be all saved by the same gospel and saved by the same blood of the same

Jesus Christ, and we are both guided by the same inerrant

God -breathed words of scripture, but our testimonies may not mirror each other.

Like, for instance, when it comes to addiction, some people are immediately delivered from these kinds of addictions, drug or alcohol.

Some of them, they struggle greatly with them for a long time until they finally are... before they finally receive a full deliverance.

People like me, I quit cold turkey when

I first became a Christian. I quit alcohol, which I was quite notorious for over -imbibing in my community.

I quit for 18 years and led a completely sober

Christian life for 18 years, and then sadly went back into that addiction and was rescued once again out of it by our

Lord, this time at Hebron Colony Ministries, which is a Christian alcohol and drug recovery ministry in Boone, North Carolina, which

I always take every opportunity I can to sing the praises of Hebron Colony.

HebronColony .org is their website, HebronColony .org. But each time

I quit, I was immediately delivered.

In fact, oddly enough, delivered from the temptation or the desire to have alcohol.

Of course, since my testimony, as I already said, after 18 years, I started to desire it.

It was more that I desired to self medicate because of depression and things like that.

But when I was delivered from it this time around, I also immediately seemed to lose any interest in the consumption of alcohol.

But tell us about your own story. Well, let me back up a little, Chris, if you don't mind.

Um, when I was, uh, growing up in the late 80s, uh, you know, with the whole, the drug scene, the rock scene.

So back then in the late 80s, you know, listen to Motley Crue and Def Leppard and those kinds of things.

But once I got, once we moved to, uh, Pasadena, uh, started listening to, uh, what we call death metal or black metal.

So we'll listen to Slayer and Metallica and Venom and Possessed and those kinds of bands that are, uh, just, you know, all about death and destruction and those kinds of things.

And got involved, uh, I'd say as a self -styled Satanist.

Um, really? Yeah. I don't know what, you know, I guess it was just the atmosphere of using drugs and, uh, just rebellion.

Uh, started reading the Satanic Bible and, you know, that was just my persona.

Uh, I had extremely long hair, uh, looked like Cousin It. It was all one length.

A lot of millennials have no idea what you're talking about, right? Yeah. And I have a,

I have, uh, two pictures of me when, uh, during my using days, my hair wasn't as long as I was talking about, but, um, uh,

I had this, uh, nasty looking Slayer shirt on. It was during Christmas and, uh, my dad is standing there with his arms around my brother and I, and my brother was a user as well.

And, uh, I got this nasty looking, uh, shirt on and you know, my dad's got a smile on his face, but, you know, we laugh about it because, you know, he's probably thinking, boy, these are my two sons.

But, uh, yeah, it was in the, like I said,

I'd say a self -styled Satanist, um, reading the Satanic Bible, uh, had the, the

Booker of Necronomicon and, um, but it, but again, wasn't, wasn't real like, like I was involved in some kind of group or anything like that.

It was, I think it was just part of the rebellion aspect of it. But at the same time, I, I could tell you,

I, I, uh, at least from my mind, I don't know from my heart. I hate, well,

I know from the heart as well, right? The heart is sick. Um, hated God and would tell people that and, and, uh, would sing the songs that, uh,

I think, uh, I think there was a band called Menowar that had a song that was

God, God is dead. And, uh, I mean, that was, that's what I was about. I mean, that was my, so when

I got clean in 91, I had this long hair, um, and when

I got, I told you, I was, uh, arrested, uh, went to jail, uh, local jail for the night, uh, had this long hair and, you know,

I'm frightened, you know, I think I was, uh, 17. Never had any experience with jail whatsoever.

Um, going in and, um, you know, all those ideas that you, that you hear about from movies and things, and yeah,

I got long hair. I'm a skinny young boy and I was pretty frightened. And, uh, but thankfully my dad bailed me out and, uh,

I wasn't able to, I didn't have to stay too long. Yeah. No doubt.

No doubt. But like I said, uh, you know, whatever it was that, uh, whether, you know, if it was, and I really don't remember it that long ago that, uh, whether I really wanted to get clean or, um,

I wouldn't be getting clean to get out of, you know, trouble. I just don't remember that. But like I said, I got clean, um, in 91 and, um, through the drug treatment center.

I don't think it's even there anymore. Um, did that and then went into the rooms of narcotics.

There's a story to that as well. Uh, let me tell this quick story and I may, uh, get some enemies by telling, telling the story.

So me and a friend of mine, a best friend that we used together, uh, we were together all the time.

Um, uh, we were in school and one day the principal called me out of the classroom and I had a, a dipper, which is a, uh, cigarette dipped in PCP.

I had it in a bomber jacket. I had it up a pocket of my arm and dippers. They smell, they got a nasty smell to them or not nasty, but it, it, they have a strong odor.

And I thought he was calling me out because of drugs. That was, it was over some fight.

And so he walked me, he was walking me back to the classroom after discussing this with him. And, and I thought, you know what?

I was scared. I, you know, like I said, I thought I was going to get busted with these drugs. And my best friend who

I used with was with every single day, he had some acid on him. And I, and I, I said,

Mr. Lee, I know somebody who's got drugs. I told him, my friend, uh, he ended up somehow he found out that he was going to get busted and he, he ended up eating acid and, but they ended up expelling him anyway.

Uh, and he went into Narcotics Anonymous. Okay. So he's in the rooms, he's in Narcotics Anonymous while I'm still using.

And then I finally get busted. Um, and went to the drug treatment center.

When I got out of drug treatment center, I went in Narcotics Anonymous, my friends there. Now, the first time

I talked to him about, uh, him getting caught, uh, he thanked me, uh, he's clean and he's got unsettled straight at this point.

He thanked me for, for telling on him. And, um, I don't know where that friend is today.

Um, I think in the long run, he did go back out using, um, but anyway, so, um, got clean.

I had six months clean and I don't know. I mean, I've been through AA a little bit too, but in Narcotics Anonymous, you used to get these key chains.

Uh, I don't know if they still give them out, but you get a one day, one day key chain, a one month. Um, I think maybe the next one is six months or something like that.

And anyway, you know, the longer, the longer you had these key chains hanging down to the ground, the cooler you are.

Um, well, I had six months clean and thought that I needed some more pain in order to stay clean.

All right. So I need to go back out and use it because, uh, I'm not going to stay clean unless I have some pain in my life.

So, um, I went back out and was smoked crack for five days straight. Um, not, not, not a good time.

Uh, didn't, didn't have fun doing it, but that's what I did. And, uh, and after that five days,

I went back to Narcotics Anonymous, I believe it was on a Monday and that Monday I met, met a

Christian and that's the man who introduced me to the Lord after, after those five days.

Um, and really I, uh, I can't say that I've ever had since then a strong desire to go back out using,

I certainly, you know, it's not part of my life whatsoever. And I don't, I don't, I don't know anybody that's smoking pot.

Um, I, I'm not with those kinds of people. I don't know anybody who's shooting up or anything like that.

I'm just not with that. So I don't have that. And I don't want that urge to go back. Um, so in that sense,

I'm obviously very grateful for that, um, that I don't have a desire.

Um, so yeah, I, you know, after that, after that five days, uh, I think I was done and, uh, you know, they talk about hitting rock bottom and if that's what it was, that's what

I did. And, and really don't have a desire to use. Praise God.

Well, you mentioned something that is very controversial, even amongst Christians. You mentioned narcotics anonymous.

And of course, uh, that would immediately bring to mind and the, the minds of many, uh, alcoholics, anonymous,

AA, AA, and NA are different, uh, recovery groups.

And, um, I happen to have serious misgivings or apprehensions, uh, and opposition to the

AA and NA groups. I'm not saying that they have not been used to rescue a lot of people out of addiction, but I think that, uh, the, the structure of them really contradicts and conflicts with biblical theology in many points.

And, um, I think that very often, uh, those places become a replacement for the church.

I, I have even heard people tell me that this is now my church, people who once were professing

Christians who say, this is now my church. Uh, it's interesting how they very often these groups will have, uh, infighting, just like denominations of Christianity.

You will have, uh, people say now that, that, that group, uh, over at that church, uh, they don't go by the book and they're not talking about the

Bible. They're talking about the AA manual. Uh, I also think that those places can be very dangerous for women and girls.

Uh, in fact, uh, I know someone personally that, uh, was assaulted, uh, by an

AA leader. So, I mean, I have my, my strong opinions about that and I don't have time to articulate all of the reasons, but what are your thoughts on those groups?

Well, I spent most of my time in, in NA, uh, maybe attended a meeting or two of AA.

Um, they, I have no doubt that, uh, people can get clean, uh, through those programs.

Right. So, so I, so I, I, that's why I said that I, I have, uh, I have no problem saying that they have been used, uh, to rescue many people, who knows, maybe even millions.

Uh, and, and the reason why I don't think that's a good enough reason to promote them is I'm sure there have been countless thousands who have been delivered from addiction by joining the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints or becoming Jehovah's Witnesses. Uh, we, uh, all know that, uh, or many of us know anyway, that the

Nation of Islam, uh, has been used to rescue, uh, black folks involved in addiction and involved in criminal behavior and they have cleaned up their lives and have become responsible citizens and so on, but that's still a dangerous and damning cult.

So I'm, I'm sorry I interrupted you. I just wanted to get, put my two cents in there. No, that's right.

Um, so the, when, when I was going to NA, uh, this is after my conversion, coming to Christ, um, my friend and I, again, getting in the

Countercult ministry and, and having a zeal to, to witness, uh, we're bashful about, uh, our faith and talking about Christ in the meeting and, for, you know, when we pray, we pray in Christ's name and, and, uh, eventually, uh, people, uh, people don't take, uh, that well, um, and, you know, even though they talk about having a higher power of your own, uh, choice, um, when it comes to Christ, uh, they're intolerant, um, and it will shut you down.

So, uh, we, my friend and I, um, early for me, I went off to Bible college and then, uh, met my wife and I think

I maybe had taken her to a meeting or two, but eventually, you know, I ended up going to church and, uh, and that's where, uh, that's what

Morton Smith used to say, that's where the action is, uh, as a church and, uh, and so, you know, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna, you know, have any kind of feeling of youth or anything like it, which

I haven't, um, but, you know, I'm gonna run to the people of God, run to the Lord, but I'm gonna run to the people of God. Um, that's what, that's what we're called to do is seek the people of God and, and, and for real change, right?

You can, you can change. I think you could change the UNA and, and like you said, other places, but what kind of real change, uh, we want to take place that, uh, we want to take place in our life is change that brings glory to God.

Um, and, uh, so I'm not a, uh, again, while I think, uh, people can get clean through NA, I'm not sure if I'd recommend it, uh, just because of the atmosphere.

Um, it's a tough thing because I got, I got clean through NA.

I mean, that's how I got off drugs. So, uh, um, yeah, just like, uh, there are

Reformed Christians that were saved through the altar calls at the Billy Graham crusades. Even some have written against them after they came to the

Reformed faith, but just, just because something can be used of God to, uh, deliver somebody from some specific kind of sinful activity does not mean that the approach or organization is biblically, uh, faithful, you know?

Right. Oh, we talk about God using broken sticks, right? And that doesn't mean we go looking for broken sticks.

So yeah. One of the, one of the things that I always found puzzling about the 12 steps, for instance, is that, uh, let's see,

I'm, I'm looking at them right now and, uh, let's see.

Uh, this, the second step is that I came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

And then the third step is that I made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understood him.

Now, if you're, if you're insane, all right, uh, if you, if you came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity, and then

I made a decision while insane to turn my will and life over to the care of a

God, as I understood him, how could a, an insane person, uh, choose a

God according to his understanding when he's insane? You know what I'm making sense here?

Oh yeah, and, and, and, you know, Romans 1, you know, kind of describes a situation where, and that doesn't talk about insanity, but is it, it's insane, right, to worship creation, right?

But in an A, you can make God anything you want to, it could be the doorknob, it could be, you know, your hair, anything, anything outside of yourself.

Which is blasphemous, obviously. Right, exactly, that's what Romans 1 talks about, right? Right. We, we have to go to our midway break right now, this is our longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us every day to take a longer break in the middle because they have to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, and air their own commercials and public service announcements during this break.

So I would urge you to use this time wisely, and please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more quickly and successfully and more frequently patronize them, because the more you patronize my advertisers, the more likely they are going to remain my advertisers, and we rely upon my advertisers, the funding that comes from their sponsorship, we rely upon that to remain in existence.

So please write down that information, and also write down a question for Jeff Downs, and the email address is chrisarnson, at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could readily understand a topic like this lending itself to a personal and private matter because it's involving addiction, so feel free to write in anonymously if you choose to, if it's about a personal and private matter, and don't worry

Dr. Cipione, we will get to your question when we return from the break, so thank you for your patience.

Don't go away, God willing, we are going to be right back with Jeff Downs, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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James White here, co -founder of Alvin Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.

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And as I said, mentioned Chris Arnzen of Iron Shepard's Iron Radio. We have a few more announcements to make about special events coming up that I hope you will attend, that I will be attending.

First of all, next week I am going to, God -willing, be at the

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. This is a conference that is held annually at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown, Pennsylvania. And this is November 9th and the 10th in Quakertown.

It is an event of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. And the theme this year of the

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology is the glory of the cross.

I will be manning an exhibitor's booth there, so I hope that if you attend, you greet me during a break while I'm manning the

Iron Shepard's Iron exhibitor's booth. The roster of speakers includes David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Nguyen.

That's November 9th and the 10th at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. To register, go to alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org. Then coming up in January, which will be here before you know it,

I will be heading out to Atlanta, technically College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

As you've been hearing, James White and Todd Friel and Phil Johnson announced during advertisements during this broadcast, the

G3 Conference. It is such a phenomenal event. This January is on the theme The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

And it's being held from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th.

There is an all -Spanish edition. If you have Spanish -speaking or bilingual friends, you might want to tell them about the

Spanish conference on Wednesday, January 16th. But as far as the English -speaking conference from the 17th through the 19th, they have an enormous roster of speakers, as they always do, that I hope you will take advantage of seeing and hearing.

You have, first of all, James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson. We have Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

Nichols, friend of our guest today, Jeff Downs, Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Don Curran, Cindy Curran, and many more are on this lineup.

For more details, go to G3conference .com, g3conference .com. I strongly recommend that you also register for an exhibitor's booth if you have a church, parachurch, ministry, business, professional practice, or special event of some kind that you want to promote at the

G3 Conference, because they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people. So it's an ideal place to have an exhibitor's booth.

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and not only register to attend, but register for an exhibitor's booth as well.

Of course, if you just want to attend, that is the same address. It's g3conference .com. Please tell everybody that you heard about the

G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory, from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Then I will be also attending, God willing, the Deep South Founders Conference.

That is from January 24th through the 26th in Laurel, Mississippi.

And the speakers include my dear friend Dr. Conrad Mbewe, the pastor of Coboata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and also

Chancellor of African Christian University. He is a highly sought -after conference speaker, I think the most powerful preacher of the gospel alive on the planet

Earth. Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, and Bobby Crenshaw.

They will all be on that roster, God willing, at the Deep South Founders Conference, January 24th through the 26th in Laurel, Mississippi.

If you would like to join me in attending this event at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, go to DeepSouthFounders .com.

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I just thought I'd throw in something that I've kind of thought was humorous, even though it seriously reveals a serious error in the

AANA recovery model. Before I had an empty bed waiting for me at Hebron Colony Ministries, the

Christian rehabilitation ministry in Boone, North Carolina, I signed myself into a rehab at a hospital, just a secular hospital, actually it's a drug and alcohol rehab wing, and I wanted to immediately get myself under the care of people to get off of alcohol while I was waiting for my bed at Hebron.

We were assigned psychologists, secular psychologists, and one of the psychologists who was appointed to me, a female psychologist, said to me, why do you disagree with the

AANA model of recovery? And I said, well, the first thing is that you teach that you could believe that anything is your higher power.

You could even believe that a chair is your higher power, and that is blasphemous as a

Christian. And the psychologist said, well, you can't believe it's a chair. I've never heard of anyone doing that.

You could believe it's a tree, she said. I said, oh, okay, so when you cut the tree down and make a chair out of it, is it still a god?

She did not like me too much. But anyway, we have...

Let me add to that. If I know someone who's on drugs,

I want to say something, maybe correct something I said. Maybe it seemed like I said something wrong.

If I know somebody who's on drugs and wants to get clean and is seeking to get clean, I'm going to invite them to church.

I'm ready to be with God's people. Seek the Lord. And this is where, you know, this is where, again, the action happens.

If you want to get clean and live a life that's pleasing to the Lord, this is where it is. The issue is, you know, if someone is in a drug treatment center, and I know they're in the drug treatment center, they got contact with me, but they're in there for 60 days, and they're required to go to NA meetings.

Am I going to, you know, say, am I going to throw a stake and contact the administrative office there and say, no,

I don't want Joe to go to NA meetings because of the theology that they promote?

That's where I, you know, I'm not going to do that, right? I'm not going to go to NA meetings, you know.

Yeah, I completely understand and I agree with you. I'm not going to, sorry about that, we accidentally launched a commercial there.

I'm not, I wouldn't do that either. Just as if a person was laid up in the hospital after an accident or something in a

Mormon hospital, I'm not going to drag him out of his room and bring him home.

I completely concur with what you're saying. Yeah. Let me say one other thing, a funny thing, interesting thing, that my daughter, who is attending a secular school this year, she had some classmates that talk about drugs all the time, and I guess she sits next to a guy that uses and is pretty open about it, and she told him about me, my dad used to be a drug addict and things like this, and he, if you looked at her and said, oh,

I guarantee your dad still uses, you know, and the funny thing is, you know, I would probably, and I'm sure you're the same way, you know, that's the way

I thought, right? Everybody in the world uses, everybody in the world smokes pot, and if you say you don't, you're probably lying, but the fact of the matter is,

God has delivered me. I haven't smoked, I haven't dropped any acid, all those things I haven't done,

I've delivered from those things, and you know, it's just interesting that the mindset you have when you're, when you are using, everybody uses, you know, and if you don't, you're lying.

Right, and let me go to our patient listener, who happens to be someone who

I've interviewed on Iron Trumpets Iron Radio, Dr. George C. Scipione. I usually don't give the full names of listeners, but I make exceptions when they've been my guests or when they're pastors and so on.

Dr. George C. Scipione, adjunct professor and director of the Biblical Counseling Institute at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

He asks, what were the greatest influences in your ministry to date?

Um, that's pretty easy.

Is Dr. Cipione fishing for a compliment? Does he want you to mention him? Actually, to tell you the truth, going through seminary, you know, some people ask you, who was your favorite professor?

That's very hard to say, going through Greenville Seminary. They were all great and godly men, all these guys.

But I tell you what stands out, and just telling you the truth, Dr. Cipione's classes stand out.

They were great, you know, very practical classes dealing with pastoral ministry. But he is not the first one that came to mind when the question was asked, only because of my involvement with the countercult ministry.

So, you know, it would have to be Walter Martin, even though I've never met him. I've listened to his tapes so many times, and certain ones

I could probably do on my own. I'm very honored to have become a friend over the last three years, after relaunching

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I've become a friend of his granddaughter Cindy, and I'm sorry, his daughter, his daughter

Cindy. And it has been quite a involved in the pro -life movement, and what a wonderful, sweet sister in Christ she is.

Yeah, you know, other just, you know, James Boyce, I used to listen to White Orson, I don't really catch that program anymore, not because I have anything against it, but just don't catch it as I did.

Those kind of things were early influences of my life. But Dr. Piper was a huge influence in my life.

You know, I owe everything to the Lord, but the

Lord used a secondary means, and Dr. Piper is definitely one of those means that has blessed me and caused me to grow in preaching and in godliness.

So I thank the Lord so much for him, and Greenville Seminary has been blessed by the Seminary so much.

Amen, and I'm sure, I hope that Dr. Cipioni has a thick skin and doesn't mind a little ribbing at his expense there.

Oh, he was a great guy. Actually, I caught him on, him and his wife did a Facebook thing about three weeks ago, and I was just so, so grateful to get on there, and I gave him a compliment on there that he's certainly been an influence on me, for good.

Well, he was certainly a phenomenal guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I look forward to him returning very often. Thank you,

Dr. Cipioni, and keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spreading the word about it in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and beyond.

In fact, Dr. Cipioni, tomorrow, Mitch Tepper returns to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, who

I believe was a student of yours at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary. He's a Jewish believer, as you know, and he is now the missionary, right now the only missionary for the

North American Division of Christian Witness to Israel. He is going to be joined by the director of the North American Division of Christian Witness to Israel, Stephen Atkinson, tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

They are giving their response to the horrific massacre that took place at the

Tree of Life Synagogue in the Squirrel Hill area of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, this past Saturday.

Very providentially, before that happened, Steve Atkinson and Mitch Tepper were both reaching out to that very same synagogue, and they are attending the memorial, and they are praying for opportunities to tactfully and lovingly and graciously and mercifully reach out to those folks with the love of Christ.

So, pray for them, and also mark that on your calendars for tomorrow, October 31st,

Reformation Day, my interview with Mitch Tepper and Stephen Atkinson of Christian Witness to Israel. Good to meet you.

So, actually, as I think about it, when Dr. Cipioni was on Facebook the other day or the other week, here's what

I said, I complimented him, because actually I remember the first time he preached at Greenville Seminary.

At the time he was living in the area, he was a pastor in an OPC church, and he preached in chapel.

And I'll never forget it, I actually have a recording, I've always held onto the recording. He gave his testimony, and I'm sure you're familiar with his testimony about him attending

Westminster Seminary as an unbeliever came to Christ. I was in seminary. And he, it was funny, someone,

I can't remember exactly, now you have to listen to the interview with Dr. Cipioni, but he had a funny response when his fellow classmates were calling him an

Armenian, because he didn't even know what Calvinism and Arminianism was. An Armenian? Yeah, I think he thought it was a nationality, that's what it was.

Right. I'm Italian or something, he said. But that's the sermon that he preached.

I remember him talking about how difficult seminary may get and all these things, but the point was getting through seminary and loving the

Lord Jesus Christ. Are you going to continue to love Christ? It's great to have all of that knowledge, but it needs to be, as Dr.

Beakey would put it, it needs to be experiential. It's not just that knowledge, you need to experience it.

Are you going to love the Lord? And I was in, you know, I'm in a seminary, and I'm in tears, man, just listening to this, and thinking, you know,

I hope that's me. Because before going to seminary, it was a lot of that knowledge. Getting in the call from stuff like that, it's just that knowledge, and you know, has it impacted me, really?

So I love the Lord. And yeah, so that actually, that sermon, like I said,

I still remember it. Praise God. He has impacted me. We are going to our final break.

It's going to be a lot briefer than the last one, so if you intend to send in a question, please do so now or forever hold your peace, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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It was such a delight to hear that. We have about 15 more minutes left. If you have a question, please send it in now at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We have a listener, we have

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, I agree with most

Reformed Christians that the moderate and responsible consumption of alcohol is within our liberty as Bible -believing

Christians, but I was wondering if your guest agrees with me that very often, far more often than we may care to admit,

Reformed Christians can flaunt that liberty in a very unbiblical way and perhaps be a stumbling block to others who may find themselves falling back into the sins of addiction.

Very interesting. I would agree wholeheartedly with the flaunting aspect.

I remember when we were living in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and attending an event and the people there were smoking pipes, and it wasn't just smoking a pipe with tobacco, whatever, it's fine, that's what you want to do.

It was smoking a pipe that was like 18 inches long, right? It almost reached the ground.

Look at me smoking my pipe! From a distance, people thought it was a bonfire, and it turned out it was just somebody's pipe.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think it's so wrong to be flaunting this. If you want to do it, do it. It's not necessary to be, you know, people post

Facebook, you know, their picture is, you know, them with a pipe, not necessarily being critical of them, but you know why?

Just so you can flaunt that you smoke a pipe, really. Yeah, I heard a story years ago by,

I believe it was Richard Denham, who is now with the Lord for eternity, a missionary in Brazil, and he was very disheartened because years,

I'm talking years ago, back in the early 90s, perhaps 80s, a

Reformed preacher that was invited to a Bible conference out there in Brazil refused to come unless he could smoke his cigar, and so he was disinvited.

And that to me, I mean, I have nothing wrong, I have no problem with Christians that want to smoke their cigars.

One of my greatest heroes of the faith, Charles Adams Spurgeon, loved his cigars and never quit smoking cigars.

The legend is wrong, according to Phil Johnson. He did not quit smoking cigars when he saw an ad for Spurgeon's favorite brand of tobacco.

There's a legend that he saw an ad that said that and he quit, but that's not true, according to Phil Johnson, who's quite an expert on the life of Spurgeon.

But anyway, but that is a ridiculous reason to not come to a Bible conference if those people have a sensitivity towards things like that.

I mean, aren't we supposed to be looking out for our brothers and trying to prevent them from falling and stumbling more than our own personal pleasure?

Right. Let me tell you a funny story, and maybe Dave White can correct me if I'm wrong with it, but he spoke at Greenville Seminary's conference a few years ago, and during that conference, all the speakers are invited to the president's house,

Dr. Piper, and during that time, they go out and have a smoke a pipe or something, and you know, my understanding is

James did not go out with them. He stayed in the house because he didn't want to, you know, James doesn't smoke, I guess, or drink, and they were smoking and drinking some scotch, and James said, no,

I'll just stay in the house. James doesn't even drink coffee. Right.

And he's one of the few people on the planet Earth that doesn't even like the smell of coffee.

That is indeed odd. In fact, a Baptist who doesn't drink coffee,

I think there's heresy involved in that. But anyway, let's see here.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, what are some practical steps of advice that you have for pastors and Christians in general who are trying to maintain the sobriety of those who have been rescued from addiction in their congregations that do not involve the famous 12 -step groups?

Yeah, well, there are certainly, and I haven't looked into them actually, but the 12 -step, and not the 12 -steps of NA, but different 12 -steps that Christians use.

I'm not familiar with the recovery programs really, but you have them out there. But I think, you know, number one is you need to be available.

If you know someone who is using, who wants to stay clean, that has a desire to stay clean, but, you know, is having a hard time, be involved in their lives as much as you can.

Obviously inform them that, you know, you can call me anytime. In the end, you can do all you want to do, and you know this,

Chris, until you want to get clean. You're going to use if you want to use.

But there are obviously things that you could do, if you love your brother, to be available for them.

Pick them up. Go places with them. Get them out of the places where they may frequent.

That's certainly a big key thing to do there. Get them in the house of the

Lord. They need to be under the means of grace, the simple means of grace. Again, the action is in the

Church and with the people of God, so that's where I'd want them, you know, in the prayer meeting, certainly on the

Sabbath, being in the house of the Lord with God's people. But again, be in that form of reading, you know, reading some books with the person, reading the

Bible, certainly praying with them. Those are some of the things that, again, you know, from my perspective, it's not a genius thing.

We talk about the simple means of grace, the preaching, the fellowship prayer, the means of grace.

That's where it's at. It's not designed to use. Yeah, I could say that that is the most powerful thing in my life that keeps me preserved from falling back into my alcohol addiction, is the fellowship of God's people, and to be fellowshipping with God's people as much as you can, not to be alone far too often.

And the way that I actually slipped back into alcoholism after 18 years of sobriety was because I was disconnecting myself from fellowship and church attendance.

It was very sporadic. It became more and more sporadic, and the sad results of that were falling back into heavy addiction until going to Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina.

God tells us what the means are to stay, I mean, in this context, to be staying clean, which is, you know, it would be sinful to go out and use and to be a drunkard.

So, I mean, how do you avoid that? How do you overcome that sin? Hiding God's Word in your heart, right?

Being in the house of Lord with God's people, God doesn't make this difficult for us in that sense.

Very simple steps, if you want to call it that. We have, let's see here, we have

Susan and Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, one of the things that I disagree with the recovery groups over is the constant identification of oneself as an alcoholic or an addict.

I believe that when we are free in Christ, we need not identify ourselves constantly as being connected with a sin that we have been rescued from.

What are your guests' thoughts? Yeah, definitely. Right, 1 Corinthians chapter 6, such were some of you.

Yeah, I'm not, that definitely is a big downer with the recovery movement.

You're once an addict, always an addict, right? Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, and that's far into the scriptures.

That's far into being one who has been born again and been given a new heart. Yeah, I agree with your, with the questioner.

I do too, and I would have to add to that for myself. Having said that,

I will never, God willing, should he spare me from falling back into sin again,

I will never touch alcohol again, even though I believe that others have a

Christian liberty to moderately responsibly imbibe.

I know that to me it would be a sinful temptation to myself of putting

God to the test. It would be also something that would give an appearance of sin to those around me who know of my history.

So I think that there is extreme wisdom in somebody who had an addiction to alcohol to never touch it again.

And of course, when it comes to the abuse of illegal or even prescription drugs, that goes without saying.

You can't recreationally use drugs at any time as a

Christian and being in the right standing with God. Well, I want you to have about three minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, just again, what we're doing here is talking about how

God has been good to us once we're blind, but now we see God has redeemed us.

He's given us a new heart, a new life, a new outlook on life. He's taking

God's thoughts after Him. As I always say, His thoughts are in His Word. And looking at the world through the lens of Holy Scripture, God has been good to Lowell and I, and we're very grateful to be on your program.

We're very grateful to the Lord for doing a mighty work in us. Interesting enough, you know, after coming out of NA and coming to know the

Lord, I never really wanted to give my testimony because it really points to, unless I'm conscious of pointing to Christ, or it points to me.

And, you know, given my drug story, as they did in NA all the time, and that's what you did. But, you know, the thing is, once I was blind, but now

I see God has redeemed me, has done a good work in me, and all glory goes to Him and Him alone.

He's been very good and committed to do that. Here I'm a former drug addict, now a pastor, a former self -styled

Satanist, one who elated God, singing songs in the opposite direction of God, you know, these songs about God is dead and these kind of things.

And now I'm singing His praises. I mean, this is a pretty awesome work that God is doing in my life, and Mary, three kids,

I mean, He's done a tremendous work, and I'm very grateful for it. Praise God. We have time for one more question.

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, although being a

Satanist or being involved in the occult is heretical and blasphemous, isn't it even beyond that?

Can we not summon up the powers of darkness that have actual, tangible, and physical, horrible, and hellish circumstances in our lives that may even lead to the possession if the person involved is an unbeliever?

I certainly do believe in being in possession, not as a Christian. The Holy Spirit dwells in you, and I don't think a

Christian can be deemed possessed, but certainly I believe in the possession of an unbeliever.

Yeah, he's basically saying it's more than just a violation of Biblical commands.

It actually can bring some very twisted and serious and satanic circumstances into people's lives.

Right, right, yeah. So we agree with you. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the information that they need to remain in contact with you.

First of all, the Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church in Mechanical, Virginia, that website is knoxreformedpres .org,

K -N -O -X, reformedpres, that's K -N -O -X -R -E -F -O -R -M -E -D -P -R -E -S .org,

and if you have friends, family, and loved ones near Mechanicsville, Virginia, or if you are visiting that area yourself, or if you yourself live near there, we strongly recommend that you visit

Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church, and why not take advantage of the fact that they are having a conference this

Saturday, that is the, this Saturday is the 2nd, right,

November 2nd? 3rd. Oh, I'm sorry, that's right, it's November 3rd, sorry about that. That's the date of the conference,

Saturday, November 3rd, and Friday, November 2nd is when you are being officially installed as the pastor of Knox Reformed Presbyterian Church.

That's right, and if anybody wants to come, we'll feed you some Chick -fil -A chicken nuggets. And as far as the conference on Saturday, it's 9 a .m.

to 11 30 a .m., right? 9, 9 to 11 30. Yes, in the morning, yes.

And thank you so much, Pastor Jeff Downs, for being my guest. I look forward to you returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want to thank everybody who listened today. Please make sure you mark your calendars for tomorrow's interview with Stephen Atkinson, the

Director of the North American Division of Christian Witness to Israel, and Mitch Tepper, a Jewish believer who is their missionary, and they're going to be giving their response to the horrific massacre that took place at the

Tree of Life Synagogue in Squirrel Hill, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.