"The Significance of the Local Church" An interview with Josh Lofthus of The Reformatory Podcast

All right, welcome to the here I stand theology podcast today. We've got a great show lined up for you. We've got Josh loftus with the reformatory podcast with us. We're gonna be talking the significance of the local church.

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

The Gospel of Christ and the Authority of God's Word

John Newton once said the following. It is impossible That either men or angels can fully sound the depth of this one sentence That Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. It is impossible that either men or angels can fully sound the depth of this one sentence That Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.

Now here's something minister listen to me again, we have this present-day Idea keep on commanding and teaching and notice That if you put these two together We're talking about teaching with authority and you cannot teach with authority based on your position or office.

You teach with authority only to the degree that you correctly interpret and communicate God's Word.

Welcome to the here I stand theology podcast. We are a podcast devoted to appointed and spirited debate of biblical doctrine. We don't plan on debating any today we are just going to be talk making some straight talk about the Significance of the local church the importance of the local church.

Are you a member of the local church. If you are a Christian, then you should very well be a Rooted grounded founded member of a local church, but we'll we'll get back to that here in just a moment. We've got Josh loft us with us from the reformatory podcast and real quick before we bring Josh in.

Let me make just a quick announcement. We are a ministry the here. I stand theology podcast is a ministry of the the local church. I myself and I'm an elder at Reformata Baptist Church. I serve under Accountability to the other elders at the church.

I serve in discretion as a servant of God to the people of God at Reformata Baptist Church. So everything that you hear on this podcast Everything we say everything that comes out of it is a reflection Reformata Baptist Church if we get out of line if we get contrary to the scriptures.

We are not above reproof rebuke or exhortation So long as it's from the Word of God, but if you're just coming with a personal pet peeve He's on down the road we got a hold to the Word Nevertheless without any further ado.

We want to bring Josh loft us into the podcast with us Josh.

How are you my man? I I am doing well my friend. I thank you for the opportunity to come on. And talk about honestly my my favorite thing to talk about man. Like I I love talking local church talk. It's the best thing and I'm excited excited to do it with you tonight, man.

Thank you. Let's let's be uh, let's be. Very transparent right up front. My head my head has been about to explode. I've been wrestling with the with the computer machines. Been wrestling with the mic problems.

You helped me a little bit walking through it. The sound should be good. If not We'll definitely have the audio to be good, but we hope that both the audio and the video are clear. So what's the weather like there in Seattle, man?

So we just got over with a very unconventional snowstorm here in the Seattle area. Which we don't we don't get. So we just went through about a week of having close to a foot of snow on the ground which If you're at all on the in the in the Seattle area it turns out that people don't know how to drive in snow.

So it is just absolute pandemonium chaos. When the snow falls people are freaking out the shelves go empty Les Schwab is backed up a mile long and it's it's absolute chaos. So we just got done with that.

It's been rainy and gray today. Back to normal.

So rainy and gray is the normal is what you're saying. It really is.

Yeah, anybody who's been around Seattle knows it's the rainy city. And yeah, it's it is a it is a Very a very interesting and long-awaited day when the Sun decides to grace us with its presence.

All right, so Josh let's get to it. So there's a yeah, I don't know if you've Tracked us or followed us or listened to us, but anytime we have a guest on. Yeah, we have a Very foundational question that we ask kind of sets the tone for the whole podcast.

Okay, and so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw it out to you. So Josh if if you and Jack Barry had to arm-wrestle who would win?

See this is nice because Jack's not here right now so I can answer however I want if Jack and I had to arm-wrestle. So I grew up in eastern, Washington on a horse ranch. All right, so I'm an old country boy at heart.

I feel like I would I feel like I would pull out the win. But Jack Jack would would probably find a way to overcome me by some nefarious means. So I'm definitely more brawn. He's definitely more brain.

Yeah, so it but it'd be interesting now. I kind of want to arm-wrestle him. I kind of want to know now.

Well what we need. We need a photographic or video evidence. We need you to send it as soon as you all do this. Yeah, you've been on the episode now. You've been asked the question. Yeah, Doug. Doug Wilson gave of course, you know, everything he said is is kind of Masked and bagged.

He's very subtle. That's Doug Wilson I said. If you and Toby Sumter had to arm-wrestle who would win?

And.

And then he somehow switched the question around he said well it would boil down to this no matter who I arm-wrestled They would win. Because I'd let them Say and no matter what happens it's because I let you.

Well, and I'm afraid I'm afraid if we're gonna be realistic Jack and I would start we'd get about 10 seconds in and then We'd realize we're both old men and it would just hurt.

I.

Am I am I turned. I'm turning 30 this year.

All right, so I'm 48 years old. You're in your prime my man. You're in your yeah. You you're not an old dude now when you were 15 30 year olds were old dudes, but yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah, exactly and now now that I'm 30 15 year olds are children. You're right and that's. That's what's interesting. Yeah. Snappers get out. That's right. Y 'all making me grumpy.

The Reformatory Podcast, Confessionalism, Catechism, and Covenant Theology

So so Josh, how did the how did the reformatory podcast get going? Yeah.

Gosh, so the former Tory's been going for a few years now. It started just kind of as an idea of Just wanting to be able to provide a Podcast for our specific local church at the time I have Jack is actually this is unless you know, people are have listened from the beginning.

They won't know Jack's actually my second host. I Started the reformatory with a guy Named Daniel very dear friend still talk to him every day. He's a pastor out here in Washington Reformed Baptist and we started the reformatory just because we wanted to To show that you can both discuss and live out theology and have have have reformed theology Calvinistic theology covenantal confessional theology be very important while at the same time not being a jerk.

Right, right and at the same time avoiding avoiding the cage stage as we call it, right? So that was the initial idea of the podcast. And then through kovat and everything that happened out here in Washington.

It's just been a mess Daniel had to step back just to focus on church stuff, which makes complete and total sense. And then I had I had the option. I'm like, okay. Well the reformatory can end or I've got a friend named Jack who very like-minded with he could come on and we'll see what happens so ended up calling Jack and It was after Jack came on the the reformatory that our focus really, I think Shifted and became very very specific to the reformatory is the podcast specifically devoted to the local church.

That there are so many great Podcasts out there already that talk about all the theology stuff and all of the things that are happening in culture, right? And and they do a great job at covering all those things.

Jack and I's heart really was focused on the local church and we wanted to basically have as the The template in our mind if this specific topic, whatever it is, whether it's cultural or theological if we can't make a real a Real like like like Focus to it it within the local church if it doesn't affect the local church in some way.

We're gonna let somebody else cover it, right? So so we began to just our episodes began to just kind of take that form of we're gonna talk about local church stuff polity and you know Membership and pastoral, you know things and qualifications just the whole gambit that's the focus that we have now and that's just kind of the train that we've decided to hop on and and.

It it definitely works for us. So that's awesome. That's awesome. And really the only other Podcast that I know of that is that focused in that. Dedicated really to making it for that local body is a great friend of mine.

He pastors up the road right up the road from us. The EC podcast if you get a chance check them out. Basically that there's three elders get together for the podcast and they've got a guy named Bobby Payne there that goes to the church.

That kind of hosts and kind of leads the conversation, but they do a great job.

They really do fantastic. Yeah, it's definitely a work that's needed and Pastors and members and deacons like they all they all need encouragement. So the more the more we can give it to them the happier the happier we are.

Hey, man.

Amen, so so let's let's answer these questions real quick. What does it mean for us because we are both of us like-minded in this? What does it mean number one that we are confessional?

Sure, yeah, I mean short answers that we adhere to a historic biblical confession, right? For Presbyterians, it's the Westminster for for some it's the Heidelberg or the Pelgic and for us as Reformed Baptist, usually it's the 1689, right?

Basically, what that means is that we see a great value in adhering to a set Standard of interpreting the essential truths of Scripture that have been confirmed. Historically, yes, right because we you know, we live we live in it in a day and age right now where truth is Relative and things change right and you go on every church website and there's their statement of faith and you have to like look at.

It's right. I mean I I view the I view the things. I view Confessionalism as the the OG statement of faiths. Yes, and that here's this wheel that has been confirmed for years and years and years and it's solid.

It's biblical. I'm a fan of not inventing it not reinventing the wheel if we don't have to right. So that's honestly why I am. I am confessional. I want a standard of Scripture of interpreting Scripture.

That is something that I know has roots and something that I know has stood the test of time and wasn't thought up and you.

Know.

Who got a special revelation from God.

That's the that's the Chai tea that you order. It's going bad, right I mean and go ahead. Oh, no, I was gonna say yeah. Yeah, we don't hold the can. We don't hold the confessions as infallible. We don't hold them to the level of Scripture, right?

Scripture is our authority not the confession, but we do believe it is beneficial to have a Rock solid interpretation of Scripture that when you have a question, especially in the local church, this is huge in the local church.

Let's go back to our confession and see what it says because it's very very beneficial. Amen. Amen.

Along with confessions. So catechism, what do you feel? How you feel about catechism? Oh, I'm all I. I was catechized as a child.

I am all in with catechisms. I think they are fantastic. I think they're especially if you can get them in your in your head as a kid, right? I can't tell you how many times so I was raised on the Westminster Shorter loved it.

And I can't tell you how many times even as an adult. That Catechism number one. What is man's primary purpose? Why am I here it to glorify God and enjoy him forever, right? Catechizing your kids I think is a fantastic way to get those rock solid truths Ingrained into their head that will have flourishing and fruit later in life.

Amen. So yeah, I'm a big catechism guy. I love him. I was looking up.

There's a you know as as children can be. There's a little girl in our church. She is I mean their family. They just moved down from Connecticut earlier last year. But man, you talk about a family that does good with their child.

I was looking for something that The mom had posted just yeah a week or two ago.

But she is there anything more intimidating than a child coming up and some reciting reformed reform doctrine to you. There's a pastor. You're like, whoa I'm gonna be careful what I say. This kids know this kid knows what he's saying.

Exactly. Exactly. So on Sunday mornings, I'm. Our goal by the end of this by the end of 2022 is to have the entire church adults and children Know that it's the children's catechism, but still yet. It's oh still Unbelievable, but so I start in the adult class.

We go through our catechism questions there for the week. Then I'm go I go to the youth class and then I'll go to the little kids class but this little girl we went in there with her and She was in there and another little boy was in in their Sunday school class.

And and it was the question what covenant did God make with Adam and Eve in the garden? Of course, the answer is the covenant of works. Well, she's been catechized on the Westminster. So the covenant of life is what they say.

So this little girl is so intelligent. She stopped me. She said hold on a minute. Hold on a moment pastor Claude there is a difference between the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. Six years old I'm thinking yes.

This is like you're right. I'm a little scared right now. That's good. That's good stuff. I love it. Well, well, well that whoever those parents are well done to those parents catechize your kids.

Well, they are awesome. They are awesome. So so, of course, we're confessional covenantal so basically being covenantal means we hold to Chiefly the covenant of works the covenant of grace and the covenant of redemption, correct?

What would you add to that?

Yeah, I would I would add that being covenantal is of is a specific way to interpret the all of the The canon of Scripture right. And that we don't see God dealing with his people in different stages or or different dispensations, right.

We see God's plan of redemption from the beginning of time to when Christ comes back as being this one Overarching consistent coherent story that brings glory to him and manifests the glory of Jesus Christ through the gospel.

Right. So as if we say we are covenantal in the way that we view Scripture It means that you don't split Scripture up into into different dispensations. Well, God dealt with these people here and God has people here.

God has people here. God has people here. God has had one people. That's right beginning of time and it is his church and he utilized Israel to be a physical and outward Example of a spiritual truth. Just I plucked Israel out from among the nations not you know.

Not based on anything that they brought to the table. So I did you right? So all of those things you mentioned plus it gives you the The I believe the correct perspective of God's glory through the gospel as the overarching way that we interpret Scripture, right.

Amen, brother. Amen. And last of all and this is what I love. I love to watch people cringe. And what does it mean when we say we are Calvinistic? Are there are there truly people who are willing in this day and age to say that they are Calvinists, right?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, right. Well, and I you know, you know the the funny thing, especially. Especially in the part of the country that I'm in that I live in. It's an interesting.

I.

Have found that when I'm asked that question I have found great benefit in asking the question and answering the question with a question and that is What what does Calvinism mean to you? Right. Because what I have found through my life Is that.

Everyone and their brother has a different definition of what Calvinism is, right? I'm pretty confident you and I have the same definition. So I'm not gonna ask you that here. But but but it is it is wise to ask that question because sometimes people are throwing like well You don't believe in evangelism.

You don't believe in prayer. You believe God is the author of evil all these things and you're like that is not at all what Calvinism teach.

Exactly. So in short by the way, Calvin didn't start Calvinism. No.

Yeah, I always point that out too. Yeah Calvin. He would roll in his grave If he heard that. We took the salvific truths of Scripture and threw his name on it. I am convinced of it.

I believe that I believe that but again that goes back to the fact that very few Christians are.

So.

Ensconced in and founded and grounded in the local church and the local church hasn't been teaching this stuff for years. Which is a big problem if you would if you ask me, I mean, but again, you know His church history teaches us so much if we just read it.

Yeah. No, absolutely Absolutely. Yep. All right. So our topic as we move along. Oh, by the way. Just real quick I thought I'd play this for you.

Because I know how you love Papa's pro. Oh man, you're gonna make me cry here on air. Don't do this.

It's just a little riff. Here. It is a little video real quick.

We don't know who God is and we don't know who we are.

All right. All right. So so that. It goes with everything I know and it's awesome that clip I usually reserve when I do teaching episodes on false teachers. Call it the crazy train edition.

But I had to play that for you because I know you love I do I I love that was that was solid. Yep.

And again is another side note dude you killed it on y 'all's intro. Oh.

Yeah, I appreciate that man. Yeah. Yeah, we have. We have we have a lot of fun with the intro music on the reformatory. So we we've had the same one for the longest time. And in it you'll hear a bunch of different preachers that we appreciate preachers some preachers that we poke fun out a little bit.

But Papa's for all both in the first one and in our brand new one that we just launched last week at the time of this. Recording is very prominent within it. So it's yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Fantastic so so let's let's move into our topic. I'm gonna respect your time. So basically we are going to be talking about the importance or the significance of the local church. So three questions kind of to begin us off for our audience to consider as they are listening or watching this number one most importantly we do not ever want to do an episode without Communicating clearly the gospel message.

So the first question for our listeners and watchers tonight is this are you a Christian? The scripture says that we're all born in sin shaped in iniquity that the scripture says there are none good. There are none that seek after God there there.

There are none that are righteous. Because of our sins we are separated from God and according to 1st Corinthians 15 1 through 4 the scriptures teach us. Plainly the gospel is simply this that Christ died for our sins.

We rate we must recognize that we are sinners. We can only know that. By God showing us that we are sinners that means being Regenerated made a new creature brought to life so that we can see and recognize That we are sinners and our sins separate us from a holy God.

Christ died on the cross for our sins as an atoning sacrifice for our sins a perpetuatory sacrifice. Penal substitutionary atonement is the big theological term. He gave his life for mine. Specifically, we believe in definite atonement.

So the scriptures teach us that Christ died for our sins was buried. Put it in the grave on the third day. He arose from the grave. Ascended to the father where he ever lives to make intercession for us.

So most folks will say this so what do we do with that? The simple biblical answer is this repent turn from your sin turn to the Savior. Believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross for your sins.

Outside of Christ. There is no other hope for you. So as we consider this question or this thought the significance of the local church tonight. First ask yourself. Are you a Christian? Repent and believe the gospel.

Second. Are you a committed and contributing member of a local church. Folks don't flinch when you talk to them about salvation nowadays. Everybody in there. I'm in Tennessee, by the way. Everybody here has been saved six to seventeen hundred times.

Depending on how many Bible schools they've gone to right? The question that really ought to stick in folks crawl to put it in country terms. Is are you a committed and contributing member of a local church?

My third question is simply this as we delve into this topic tonight. If you are a Christian and you are not a member of the local church. Why? Why I believe you'll find out by the time we're finished tonight that you are living in sin.

Contrary to the Word of God if you are a professing believer in Jesus Christ having been born again Regenerate by the Holy Spirit of God and you are not a member of a local church. You're in sin. Some folks won't say that.

I'm not afraid to. I'm gonna say it and so there. So Josh is as we basically the basic questions that we'll be covering in Key questions. We'll be looking at really are what are the defining characteristics and marks of a local church and.

Is a Christian in disobedience to the Word of God by not being a member of the local church. Two questions, but those cover a great bit of territory. What say you brother? They do. Yeah. Yeah large questions.

So When we talk about the local church, I think it's important to Obviously define our terms, right? All right. What are we what are we talking about there? We have obviously that the Universal Church the Invisible Church.

However, you want to describe it, you know describing the the elect of God the church capital C, right? But when we talk about and that is comprised of all of the people that have gone before and will come and and and are Here present that are the elect those that have been bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.

Amen, when we talk about the local church Small c we are talking about the the local expression.

Of.

The universal church. It is the gathering of believers in a set place wherever that is for the express purpose of worshiping God on the Lord's day.

Yes, right.

So when we talk about the local church, that is what we are speaking about. Is your gathering, right? There's tons of local churches around right? There's many churches in many towns. Some good some bad.

The local church. Your local church is the one that you are committed to.

Right.

Now when we talk about What what makes? A local church what what what constitutes a church biblically? I think I think biblically and historically we have some set parameters of what defines a new testament church.

Right. Um, the first one is the centrality of the gospel in preaching in singing in teaching in fellowship of all things. It's the centrality of Jesus Christ and his gospel that has to be there. If the focus is somewhere else your focus your foundation is.

On something that's going to sink, right? So that's number one that has to be there. Number two the sacraments must be observed rightly and biblically. Right and for us reformed baptists that means baptism and the lord's supper.

We just did an episode that's launching at the time of this recording. It'll launch uh this coming thursday. But we just did an episode on on the lord's supper communion. And and why it's important right and and and what is what who is who is to take it?

How are they to take it? Um, there's a lot of debate. Uh, As to what's best practice when it comes to taking the lord's supper, but the point is that you have it. The point is that it is a part of your local church.

It has to be there, right? Um, I would say third and finally there has to be Church discipline there has to be.

A.

Ruling Governing board if you want to call it that although I don't really like the term of qualified elders. That are overseeing the church overseeing its care and overseeing its protection. Right. So if one of those three things is missing from the local church.

Historically, I believe it ceases to fall under the biblical definition of what a new testament church is to be comprised of now. There are many more important things. That the local church needs to have within it to help it be healthy, right?

But when we talk about the pillars of it. Those are the big three.

Amen, it sounds uh, sounds like you believe that you are confessional like you were stating earlier. Sounds like you'll find that. Uh, i'm gonna i'm just going to jump in like we had in the show notes here.

Um, the belgic confession. Again, the the good historic confessions the westminster you mentioned them the london baptist confession uh the belgic confession, um, we have the heidelberg catechism. We have all these great confessions.

We have all these resources.

To.

Confirm the truth of the scriptures. And uh the heidelberg catechism in article 28. Actually, I mean, it's almost like you were reading from it. We believe that we ought diligently and circumspectly to discern from the word of god, which is the true church.

Since all sects which are in the world assume to themselves the name of the church. But we speak not here of hypocrites who are mixed in the church with the good. Yet are not of the church though externally in it.

But we say that the body and communion of the true church must be distinguished from all sects That call themselves the church the marks of the true church. Is that is known. Are these the pure doctrine of the gospel is preached.

Maintains pure administration of the sacraments as instituted by christ. If church discipline is exercised in chastening of sin. In short of all things managed according to the pure word of god. All things contrary thereto rejected.

Jesus christ acknowledged as the only head of the church, man. I wish folks still wrote like this.

Oh, I truly do I know but but even but in that we see. Again, like we see the importance of adhering to a confession. Right because those truths like so eloquently Described in that confession like that that that is some steak you can dig your teeth into.

Right, and then it beats any statement of faith. Like I was saying earlier written by written by anybody i'd rather that.

Yeah that um statements of faith confessions. Um, I'm in definitions. Definition definitionality is super important. You made reference to definitions making clarifying definitions a few minutes ago. But I mean so many churches are built upon a vague Notion and an idea of who god he is.

And his true church Is not his. His true church is built and i'm not going to sound like one of those, you know wackos I'm, just using the the old terminology, but the true church is built upon the word of god.

I mean everything that we do Must be centered and focused on the person and work of christ. If it's not it is exactly like you said misguided.

So.

Absolutely 100.

Um, so, uh. David miller you ever listen to him.

Preacher. David miller. I can't say I have I I've the name definitely sounds familiar.

But I can't say i've listened to anything from him. All right, so he's in a wheelchair. Um, he can't even hardly move but man, I think he's got the entire bible memorized to hear him preach. You need to look him up.

I'm serious, but he says this he says this metaphors are used to describe the church in scripture. And you just once you see him preach and see his facial expressions. Yeah, you this will mean more to you, but he said this it's called the body.

Or the invisible building and sometimes the bride of christ. He said in my opinion the ideas of locality and visibility are inherent in these metaphors. For example, he says this did any of you ever know of a universal invisible body?

Did any of you ever know of a universal invisible building? And may the dear lord have mercy upon the poor fellow who marries a universal invisible bride. He said you can't do anything better than to bend your knee and to bow your heart with godly sorrow.

Turn from your sin in repentance believe on the lord Jesus christ with all your heart and join up with a good bible believing bible teaching church. And spend your life in that church serving jesus in a local visible congregation.

I'll co-sign that every day and twice on sunday, my man, that's good stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you know, it brings up a good point in that and I think we've definitely seen this.

Um.

Through you know. Through covid right and 2020 and all of the all of the the the junk that came up from that. Um. And I definitely saw this like majorly up here in washington. Um is that. The church. The concept of church if you will.

Quickly became something that we can individually define. And it quickly became something that we can play fast and loose with with what constitutes church. Right, um, and and again, like I I took flack for it, but i'm gonna say it again like online church.

Is not church. Amen. It's not.

Right now I am thankful that the lord has given us gifts like the internet so that the gospel can go out to places that That that it wouldn't have been able to right. I'm grateful that when i'm down with the flu I can I can Turn, you know tune into a live stream and and be edified right by the word of god but We cannot Fall into the trap.

Of.

Defining that as the same as gathering Amen, right. When we are commanded in scripture to do to do not forsake the gathering of believers. There's so many reasons why we are commanded to do that, right?

And one of the consequences that 2020 Brought with it and it was more I'm, not convinced that 2020 caused it. I'm convinced that 2020 revealed problems that were already there. I agree, right. And one of those major ones was the very low view that many have of the local gathering of believers.

Yeah, right. And it very quickly became something that oh I can just I can just do at home in my in my pjs. Watch my pastor and you know. Have self-communion which is just asinine to me. I'll be completely honest with you.

Lecrae. Yeah, the recent lecrae quote. Yeah, it was bad. It was bad. Um, but sinan is an ideal terminology. Bad idea.

Right, but but that like that has been the mentality right. And we've quickly seen kind of a a degrading of what it means to be a part of a local church. Um, and that's one of the reasons why we very quickly shifted the focus of the reformatory.

So we're seeing this going on around us and we're like man. We need people that are on the front lines shouting like this is what the church means. Amen, this is what the church is. This is what it looks like.

This is what it does. Um, because there are so many principles in scripture when it comes to local church that are non-negotiable. And gathering physically with your people is one of them.

Amen. Amen, david schrock. Uh, just another quote here. David schrock said commitment to the church has been noticeably absent. And hence many born-again christians live out their faith without understanding the purpose and place of the local church.

Previous generations of church members would be equally puzzled by our our laissez-faire approach to membership as well as our absolute self-confidence that we Individuals are part of the universal church because we say we are.

Which brings us back to the question he said how does one know they are a member of christ universal church? If not by membership in the local church. Because that really that brings I mean, that's the ax laid to the to the root of the tree right there.

That's the that's the heart of the matter. If if a man or woman is born again by the grace of god He will not be able to help but love christ. Right to thank god for christ to worship christ and to do that with other believers.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you can't. It is impossible to love jesus christ and yet despises people.