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Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:17

Many Mother Christians believe that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, he was God, but if you read the

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Bible, there is not a single unequivocal statement, not a single unambiguous statement.

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In the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him, himself says that I am God, obey his worship.

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And about this business of every knee shall bow, the question will follow, look Paul, what about this business here now?

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It says here that every knee shall bow to God, and you're saying here to the Philippians that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, so Paul assures us, look, don't get upset, that was just something for them, now just fool around with those

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Philippians. Because Jesus said it in so many ways that he's not

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God, you just want to stick it to him no matter what. I said you're not reading your

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Bible, you don't read your Bible properly, you know God has got sons by the tons in the

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Bible, by the tons, you know tons is the old measurement of weighing things, tons. And now, coming to you live from our underground bunker deep beneath the madrasa where Ergen Kanner was trained in jihad and Arabic somewhere in Turkey or Beirut or Cairo or Ohio, anyway this is

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Radio Free Damascus. And welcome to Radio Free Damascus, my name is

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James White and we are doing a Radio Free Damascus today. I have had the

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Akhmed Didat clip that we're going to work on, I've had that for about a week or so, someone on Twitter sent it to me and said please listen to this with an open heart and mind.

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Well, nothing new about what Akhmed Didat had to say, but the reason we moved it up to the top of the list and are going to be tackling these issues today is due to the fact that yesterday someone came and channeled and made us aware of an article posted on the

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Calling Christians website and it is an interview that was done with Sheikh Awal, now some of you will remember

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Sheikh Awal, I spent quite some time responding to his presentations in preparation for a debate that took place, as I recall, in June of 2010 in a suburb of Detroit.

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We were supposed to debate twice, we only debated once, and as I was going to the church for the second debate, having been informed during the day that Sheikh Awal had decided not to do the second debate,

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I thought I was coming to do a presentation on, if I recall correctly, the reliability of the

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New Testament or something along those lines. I was all set up to do that and that's when they arranged the

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Etesham Gulam disaster, where Etesham Gulam has become a

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Twitter stalker of mine for years now, just completely dove headfirst off the deep end into who knows what.

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And so that's the background, that's where the problem lies.

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And so I, to be honest with you, had not thought much about Sheikh Awal over the years.

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Sheikh Awal studied under Ahmed Didat, as did Yusuf Books, and I think

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I have been fairly clear in my estimation of Ahmed Didat. He was a showman, he was not an apologist, he was not a scholar.

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His arguments are pitiful, pitiful. If he is the best that Islam looks to being, then

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Islam will never have a meaningful apologetic presence at all. It's that bad. His arguments are that bad.

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They are vacuous. He could never have survived a meaningful debate with a meaningful opponent.

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And having done two debates now with his disciples, both were not even close.

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They were embarrassing. From the Christian perspective, everybody in the audience was like, you've got to be kidding me.

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And from the Muslim perspective, at least in one of those two, and really in both to any honest -minded person, they recognized it wasn't close either.

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And it's not because of the individuals, it's because Ahmed Didat's material cannot survive any meaningful examination.

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It's just that bad. And until Islamic apologists start to recognize this and start to understand that he cannot be our goal, he cannot be what we're looking for, they're going to continue to have some serious, serious problems.

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Now, what happened yesterday, and I linked to the material, in fact, let me get that up so I can double check what all

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I put on the article because I want to make sure that we had everything here.

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We have, I thought I put the link to it. Huh, I guess

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I didn't. I thought I put link. Oh, wait a minute. Did you?

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Oh, you? I'm sorry? Huh, well,

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I thought I had, I know I copied it at one point, not sure why it's not there.

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Wanted to put the link to it so you could listen to it yourself beforehand. Apologize for that. But, hmm, okay.

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All right, that's fine. Ijaz Ahmed is the individual, and I don't know,

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I'm going to ask him because he says he's going to call in today. I'm going to ask you if that's his actual name. He has written a number of articles, one of which he wrote after the debate with, at the

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East London Mosque that I found particularly offensive, and I'll have to ask him why he chose to utilize that kind of language.

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So you might want to be thinking about explaining that when we have the opportunity. But if you go to the callingchristians .com

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website, you'll be able to find, let me see, go to the main page here, and let's see, how far down is it?

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Yeah, it's only the third one down. It's only the third one down, so you can still find it. It has, unfortunately, a screenshot of one of David Wood's more obvious mistakes.

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I think. I don't know what that has to do with, well,

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I guess he did ask about, he did throw some stuff out about David Wood, so I guess maybe that's why he put it there. But anyway, basically what the interview, the center part of the interview was about the debate that we had.

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And I'm going to play that for you so you can hear exactly what was said.

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The interview started off with some other stuff, just about what Sheikha Wall had been up to recently.

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And then the questions began about myself and the debate that took place in Detroit.

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By the way, we will be uploading the entirety of the video of this debate this evening, right?

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Right after this program. We would have done it earlier, but we need the bandwidth to be able to make the proper connections to do everything that we're doing with the program.

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Why haven't we had this up before, Mr. Pierce? Well, I got this stack, and it's gotten bigger and bigger, not smaller and smaller for the last several years, honestly.

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And no one has, has anyone ever written to us and gone, wow, I really want to see that debate with Sheikha Wall?

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No. No, I didn't think so. No. Did Sheikha Wall ever contact us? No. No, okay.

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I'm pretty sure I know who Sheikha Wall did contact, and that would have been George. Now, we've contacted

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George many times in the past, too, haven't we? Yeah. Yeah. And George, and to be fair, George and I have a similar problem, and that is organization.

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I'm getting better at it, and I hope he is, too. Well, we love

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Brother George. We love Brother George, but Brother George, no, you don't, you don't have the same problem that Brother George has.

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And everyone who knows and loves Brother George will all say the same thing. Brother George and Jerry Madetik share something in common.

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They both have tremendous zeal, but zero organizational capacity. I have noticed that Brother George is focused.

10:44

How long did it take us? To get the 10 -minute closing statement from the debate in 2008 with Sami Zaatari.

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It seems like a couple of years. Oh, we didn't get it until... 2011, 12? 12.

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So four years. Four years. And I cannot tell you how many emails I sent during that time. Please, please, please.

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It's all I want. I don't even need the whole thing. Please, please, please. We begged for a long, long time before we eventually got that.

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Now, we've had this one, but we've had no requests for it. And it just was...

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It's been on my pile. I do a lot of debates. And a lot of that comes down to the fact that I've only in the last year really gotten good at being able to process these things in an efficient manner, in a quick manner.

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Used to be it would take me about a month to process. And you've been focusing more upon the more recent stuff.

11:40

Yeah. You know, South Africa. Trying to work my way back. Yeah, we still haven't gotten the stuff from the

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Bashir Varnia debate. And sometimes it's... You know, we don't have a crew that goes around, does these things.

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We have to be dependent upon other people. Well, the debates with... At the

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London Mosque. Oh, yeah. I don't know how long I spent going back and forth, even trying to get a little bit rough around the edges with...

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Oh, yeah. I was going to mention IERA. I mean, we've had Muslims who've just refused to give us the

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Masters. They won't do it. Despite the fact that we had... I finally went through their production and double -checked with your recording to make sure that it was entirely there, and it was.

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And so I just told them, I said, you know what? I don't need to be suing anybody. I don't need to be having anybody sue us.

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I will just go ahead and link to what you put up, and it's in our channel. And there we go.

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And move along. But... We won't be working with them again. We won't be working with you again. No, no, no. Can't do it.

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Can't do it. And he was fine with that. We had zippity -doo -dah to do with the recording of anything in Detroit.

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We don't have anybody there. Nothing. Okay. All right. All right. So there's some of the background.

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So I was disappointed and quite surprised with what was posted yesterday.

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So we're just going to skip into it. I'm going to play it, and I'm going to play it... In fact, in this instance,

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I'm playing it at regular speed. No, nothing at all here. So here is the dialogue that is directly relevant to myself and to the debate that we had.

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So Sheik Awal, you have debated Mr. James White, and there are accusations that after your first debate with him that you chose not to debate him again.

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You ran away from him. There are also accusations that perhaps your debates have been edited by Christians, and they don't reflect the true record.

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Can you please give me a bit of information regarding Mr. James White and your debates with him?

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Absolutely. The debate that I did with Mr. James White in Michigan is a very deceptive kind of debate.

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I asked to be given the copy. They refused to give me the copy. I called one of the guys.

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I forgot his name, but he promised to send me the copy. He didn't send me the copy, and I was angry. So before I know, they have it on YouTube.

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It is not even in the video form. It's in the picture form, and I'm speaking, and the words are not clear.

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So I realized that they have kind of like paste and cut and paste. They've said something that I didn't say, making it look like I said it.

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So I was wondering. I keep calling them to give me the copy. I want the whole script. They didn't give it up to me.

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And so I decided, you know what? These people, they are so deceptive. You want to have an argument that is based on logic, common sense, and academic.

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Well, I'm ready. But as it seems, it's like a deception that they're doing. And the reason why I didn't continue the second debate with White was that,

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I think David Wood or somebody, and Sam Shimon, they went and they started attacking the masjid that hosted me.

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I mean, come on. This masjid is the one that... Sheikh, what do you mean they attacked the masjid? Can you be a bit more clear on those words?

14:55

Well, they were saying that this masjid is bogus. It doesn't make any sense, and that the

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Muslims are really not practicing what they should be practicing. And he was talking about the

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Prophet Muhammad s .a .w. that Muhammad is this and that and this and that. And really, you know, it got on the nape of their leadership.

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So it's not that you refuse to debate them, but because of their attitude and their actions, out of principle and their deceptive behavior, you choose not to have them attack

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Islam and have them take advantage of you. It's not that you refuse to debate them. It's that you refuse to give in to their deception and their attacks.

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Wallahi, absolutely. After all, I came from New York all the way to Diyarba, Michigan. What am I to do? To debate. But when I came, the way they were doing,

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I don't want to associate myself with them. If I knew that this is how they're going to behave, I wouldn't have come in the first place. Okay, so Sheikh, are you willing to say that if James Wright were to sit down and sign a contract saying he would give you the original debate and he would not edit it in any way, he would not attack any masjid, he would sit down in a conference room that you and him agree upon, would you debate him again under those conditions?

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Oops, not sure what happened there. Let's go back there. Absolutely, if I am given that copy of the debate that we did in the church, of course, why not?

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But as it seems, nobody's given me that copy, meaning there's something shady going on. Okay, now, there's the assertions.

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I'm going to go back through them. You've heard them all now. There's the whole section about me. They go on there. He then goes on to attack

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David Wood and so on and so forth. Let's go back through that point by point and respond.

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I want you to hear all of it. And now I want to respond to each part.

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So, Sheikh, you have debated Mr. James Wright, and there are accusations that after your first debate with him that you chose not to debate him again.

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You ran away from him. There are also accusations that perhaps your debates have been edited by Christians.

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And they don't reflect the true record. Can you please give me a bit of information regarding Mr. James Wright and your debates with him?

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Now, I had never heard until this any accusation of any editing of this debate because I've never heard the debate and didn't even know it was on YouTube.

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And it's not on YouTube, not as far as video. We found two copies where someone took the live stream.

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They recorded the live stream because it was live streamed over the internet. They took the live stream and they put still photos up.

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And I don't even know who it was. One of them was in... It looked like it was some Russian or something. Yeah.

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And then somebody else found one that was broken up into like three or four parts. Eight? Eight or ten.

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Okay, whatever. The other one was single. So that's all we found. And that was not put up by ABN, who evidently had something to do with this because what we have, the

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DVD we have, has GSR Muhammad all over it. Yeah, we were sent an edited DVD for the tapes that I did get from George.

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That wasn't one of them. Yeah. So I don't have an unedited master of this. But at the same time, the

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DVD actually looks like it rendered pretty good. So it should look really good. It's going to have ABN branding all over it.

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Yeah, yeah, the quality is good. But again, first time I've heard any accusation whatsoever.

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Now, I have not taken any time since yesterday to listen to the live streaming or, you know, the ones that were put up or anything like that because we didn't even know they existed.

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So first time hearing this type of accusation. So we continue on. Absolutely.

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You know, the debate that I did with Mr. James White in Michigan is a very deceptive kind of debate.

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Deceptive kind of debate? How so? I mean, as I said, by this evening, at some point, obviously, assuming that all the upload goes properly, the entirety of the debate will be on YouTube.

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We will put it up there. And if he would like us to burn him a copy of that DVD, be happy to send it to him.

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It's all we've got. It's all we're provided. He goes on to say,

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I asked to be given the copy. They refused to give me the copy. I called one of the guys.

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I forgot his name. Who? The only person when

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I showed up, the only person that I knew that was involved in arranging this debate was George.

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And so I assumed that he contacted George. And believe me, for years,

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I contacted George to get a single video clip. So I know there's a biblical story that Jesus used about persistence in prayer.

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You got to keep asking. But I want it to be very clearly known.

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Sheikhawal never contacted us. If he had, then we would have certainly gotten hold of George and said, look, if the other side really wants this, you've got to get it to him.

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And we would have added our weight to the request, and it would have been taken care of, I'm sure.

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But we got no, we weren't contacted. There was no, he didn't call us, didn't talk to us, didn't ask us to be of assistance, anything like that.

20:37

There's nothing deceptive about the debate itself. But let me point out, it was supposed to be a two -part debate.

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It was supposed to be two nights. And the story that I was given was not the story that is given in this interview.

20:58

All right, I'll point that out as he gets to it. But he promised to send me the copy.

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He didn't send me the copy. And I was angry. So before I know, they have it on YouTube. Not they.

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ABN didn't put it up. You went through the, you looked through the ABN stuff, didn't you? Yeah, I looked through ABN. It's not on the

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ABN sat, or it's labeled Jesus or Muhammad. So that particular show on ABN.

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So it's got the ABN sat. Lots of those. Yeah. And there's tons of, and I've searched for his name.

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I searched for the title of that debate. It's for whatever reason not up there. And it's like, or it's not titled that way.

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And we couldn't find it. Yeah. I mean, it's, but it's like, we can get it up in a real quick.

21:41

And obviously what he said, what he says here. In describing this is clearly the, the ones where they record the live streaming because he talks, here's how he describes it.

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Even in the video form. It's in the picture form. And I'm speaking. Yeah. It's in the picture form. I'm speaking. What he's saying is stills.

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I could tell immediately when I listened to our version. That it's going through the soundboard, you know, you're hearing the room echo and all that, but it's going through a soundboard.

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It's not being picked up, you know, either through live streaming, low quality there or somebody with a recorder in the audience.

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Which that also occurred to me. It's a possibility. That's where it came from too. I mean, we don't know that it was the live streaming, but it would, it would explain the lack of decent quality of the audio.

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And the words are not clear. So I realized that they have kind of like their paste and cut and paste.

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They've said something that I didn't say, make it look like I said it. So, so he's saying that this has been edited.

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I would like to have evidence of this. He will have tonight. The entirety of the

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DVD has been provided to us will be on YouTube. So I'd like to know, folks, let me put something, let me put this as, as simply as possible.

22:53

This debate did not need to be edited. It was so one -sided.

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It was such a bad performance on the part of Shaka Wall that any unbiased person, especially listening to the cross -examination,

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I'm going to play some of it for you on the program that you get to watch for yourself. There would be no need to edit this.

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That'd be like saying, I think you edited the Yusuf books debate. Why? I think you edited the

23:23

Nader Akhmed debate. Why? You don't want to edit those. I mean, they were just that clear, that obvious.

23:32

So I'd like to see some evidence of this, this accusation. Again, I've never even seen these still photo audio things.

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Didn't even know they existed. We had nothing to do with them. Uh, so notice this has nothing to do at all, uh, in regards to why he bailed out on the next night, why he refused to debate.

24:01

Well, let's also keep in mind the word editing as it's being used. I mean, there's proper editing in dropping titles in, doing transitions from camera to camera, which this does.

24:12

Okay. But I found this nowhere on the internet. Now he was saying editing as in changing what he said.

24:19

Exactly. So altering the actual word. He was also the way he... Tarif al -Nas for the... What's that? Tarif al -Nas versus Tarif al -Mana.

24:27

Nevermind. Well, he, the way he described it almost sounds like he's criticizing the fact that it was kind of mushy sounding.

24:33

Well, if they took it off the internet through the live streaming and there was hiccups or anything like that, you got max headroom kind of sounds.

24:39

You're going to have those kinds of things. That doesn't mean people edited it. And for all I know, or all you know, the people that posted this stuff are

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Muslims. Yeah, I don't know. We don't know. I have no earthly idea. So... Yeah, here we go. So I was wondering,

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I keep calling them to give me the copy. I want the whole script. They didn't give it up to me. And so I decided, you know what?

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These people, they are so deceptive. You want to have an argument that based on logic, common sense and, you know, academic, well,

25:05

I'm ready. But as it seems, it's like a deception that they're doing. And the reason why I didn't continue...

25:11

Now, folks, all of that has to be much later. This couldn't have had anything to do with his not choosing to do the second debate, because that was just the next night.

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No one would expect to have finished audios and videos and stuff like that in 24 hours.

25:30

So keep that in mind. I think he sort of conflates these things. But now here's the alleged reason for the second night.

25:37

The second debate with Wyatt was that I think David Wood or somebody, and Sam Shimon, they went and they started attacking the masjid that hosted me.

25:48

I mean, come on. This masjid is the one that... Sheikh, what do you mean they attacked the masjid? Can you be a bit more clear on these words?

25:54

Yes. Can you be a bit more clear on these words? That's a good way of putting it. Well, they were saying that this masjid is bogus.

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It doesn't make any sense. And that the Muslims are really not practicing what they should be practicing.

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And he was talking about the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, that Muhammad is this and that and this and that.

26:14

And really, you know, it got on the nerve of the leadership. So it's not... What? It got on the nerve of the leadership.

26:22

Let me tell you what I was told. Let me tell you what Sheikh Awal told George on the phone. You see what had happened the night of the debate.

26:33

Actually, the afternoon of the debate. Pretty much while... Actually, while this debate was going on is when

26:39

David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi were arrested at the

26:44

Arab Festival. That's when it happened. I found out about it once the debate was over or maybe right before the debate started.

26:54

I can't remember. Anyway, and so when that got coverage, that is the excuse that was used.

27:06

Was because they went to the Arab Festival and got arrested, then we shouldn't have this debate.

27:12

And we're like, I wasn't there. So what does this matter?

27:19

I wasn't arrested. I didn't go to the Arab Festival. We've done one debate.

27:27

I've demonstrated the ability to do this debate in a scholarly and controlled fashion.

27:33

It was a complete ruse. But that's what we were told. We were told that the masjid put pressure upon him.

27:40

They were the ones sponsoring him. They're the one putting him up. And because of what had happened at the Arab Festival, that they would not allow him to...

27:50

And it wasn't even at an Islamic location. It was at a church. But they wouldn't allow him to debate.

27:55

That's what we were told there. Now, I will be perfectly honest with you.

28:05

I felt that was a utterly bogus and ridiculous excuse. I believe that Sheikha Walt cancelled the second debate because he lost the first one so completely and so badly.

28:16

And we're putting the video out there. I mean, this is the first time anyone's ever said anything about it. So, okay, we're putting the video out there.

28:22

You watch it for yourself. Make your own decision. I think it's obvious.

28:32

Ahmed, DDOTs, apologetics cannot survive meaningful Christian cross -examination.

28:38

Can't do it. It's that bad. It's always been that bad. It was bad when DDOT said it. It's even worse when someone just repeats what

28:46

DDOT said. It's all there is to it. It's all there is to it. So, that's a completely different story than what he told

28:54

George and what we were told at the time. Well, you know, this and that's pretty bad. This and that.

29:01

Yeah, the this and that part. There was this and that and this and that. That leaves a lot of room for this and that. But it's not as bad as that and this.

29:08

Well, it depends. Yeah, it depends. It depends on that and those. Anyway.

29:14

Not that you refuse to debate them, but because of their attitude and their actions. Because of their attitude.

29:20

Whose attitude? He was debating me. I did nothing between the time we got done with this debate and when a wall backed out.

29:30

But go to sleep and have breakfast. That's all I did. So, why are you holding me accountable?

29:38

Now you're blaming Sam Shamoon and David Wood? David Wood wasn't doing much either.

29:44

He was in the cooler. The word that came to my mind when you told me about this and you just as you refresh my memory telling this story.

29:53

Yes, we're coming up on what? Four years? Yeah. The word that came to my mind at the time was, why on earth would you use this as a punishment?

30:03

And then it occurred to me, that's exactly what it is. They didn't, they're not, there's no dimitude.

30:09

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This is their part and we're going to punish you for not having proper respect.

30:16

Going to the Arab festival. Yeah, the festival. Which I didn't do. But since we're all in the same camp or something.

30:25

Out of principle on your deceptive behavior, you choose not to. What deceptive behavior,

30:30

Ichaz? What deceptive behavior? Remember, now we're talking about why he didn't do the second debate.

30:38

What deceptive? Where has there been any reference whatsoever to deceptive behavior?

30:45

On my part? Where? What did I do?

30:52

Nothing's been documented. Have them attack Islam and have them take advantage of you.

30:58

It's not that you refuse to debate them, it's that you refuse to give in to their deception and their attacks.

31:04

That's called a, that's, in the courtroom, the other attorney would stand up and go, objection, leading the witness.

31:13

And the judge would go, sustained. That's his attempt to sort of lead him along to say what he wants him to say.

31:22

But nothing has been said that substantiates any of that. What deceptive behavior? What were these attacks?

31:29

Who made them? I mean, can you imagine if this is the other way around?

31:35

Think about it for just a moment. Ichaz is watching this. Think about it. What if I bailed out?

31:41

What if I had a horrible debate, just had a bad day? And then

31:46

I came up with these excuses. Well, I found someone from Muslim Debate Initiative attacking the church and saying bad things about Paul.

31:54

Boy, like, Muslims never do that, right? Would you accept this?

32:00

You know you wouldn't. You know you wouldn't. Double standards again. You could have even, at the time, decided,

32:08

I'm not going to debate second day in protest that you had my friends arrested. Oh, yeah, of course. Oh, yeah, that, at least

32:15

I would have had a basis for doing it. I did not, no. Why, absolutely.

32:20

After all, I came from New York all the way to Michigan. What am I to do, to debate? But when I came, the way they were doing,

32:26

I don't want to associate myself with them. If I knew that this is how they're going to behave, I would have come in the first place. If I'd known how, what did they do?

32:36

Give me, tell me something that they did that they hadn't done a year ago. Tell me something

32:42

I did between the two debates that is even slightly relevant.

32:48

Nothing has been said. Nothing has been provided. I don't even know that I blogged anything.

32:56

I might have blogged a brief note. Had a great debate this evening. Look forward tomorrow night. Something like that.

33:01

I don't know. But this stuff about being deceptive and attacking

33:07

Muhammad, come on. This is, this is silly. Absolutely silly.

33:13

So, Sheikh, are you willing to say that if James White were to sit down and sign the contract saying he would give you the original debate and he would not edit it in any way?

33:23

Okay. Now, notice who he's saying this about. Me. I have had absolutely zippity -dippity -doo -dah to do with this video.

33:32

We were sent the DVD. We finally got the DVD. It's all we've ever been sent.

33:41

No one's ever asked for it. There's been no editing of it. There's been no changing of words.

33:48

Um, nothing. And so, but now I'm guilty without even a trial.

33:57

Deception. You know? And I'm just like, wow.

34:04

It would be so easy to turn the tables and to make the same kinds of accusations the other direction.

34:10

Except I'd actually have some foundation. I'd be able to talk about the two debates with Iera in London and the fact that they wouldn't give us the masters and that we've had to sit there.

34:20

And that's one of the reasons that I carry the Livescribe pen now with me at all times. And for example, you'll notice that we haven't been able to put the, um, did we put the

34:31

Pretoria debate up? He's busy. I don't think we've been able to put the Pretoria debate up.

34:36

Or if we did, we put some note on it. I don't remember. But we're, we've, the video that's been provided to us from South Africa of the debate between Shabir Ali and I in Pretoria is all messed up.

34:51

There are two entire sections missing. They're just, they're just gone. One for me, one from Shabir, mine's longer than his.

34:59

And unfortunately, it was really sort of the heart of the debate. So it really messes everything up. You know how we knew?

35:05

Well, actually, they knew before we did, but you know how we were able to demonstrate it? My Livescribe pen. I started at the beginning of the debate, and I turned off at the end of the debate, and it records the whole thing.

35:15

And I have not so high quality, but it's amazing how good it is given, you know, given that it's just a pen.

35:26

But I've got an entire mp3 recording of the whole thing, and we can go back and we can see what's missing, so on and so forth.

35:35

So if you're going to accuse me of this stuff, back it up. So far, nothing has been substantiated.

35:41

Zippity -dippity -doo -dah has been substantiated. But it's the deceptiveness.

35:47

You people are deceptive. La -la -la -la. And well, anyway.

35:53

He would not attack any masjid. He would - I would not attack any masjid. What does that mean?

36:00

I've got Ijaz's website up here. And he's got a - right there.

36:08

Free course in the Bible by Ustad Ali Attai. I watched a debate that Ali Attai did with David Wood, and he viciously attacked the

36:18

Apostle Paul. Therefore, at any time I want, I can say, because Ijaz has that on his website, he's attacking the

36:31

Apostle Paul. He's attacking the church. And therefore, even though we agreed to the debate, now I've got the reason not to do it.

36:36

Right? I guess, if that's how you reason, if that's how you think. It's not really a debate.

36:44

It's not really a good excuse, but there it is. What do you mean attack the masjid?

36:49

I didn't attack any masjid. I did nothing. I went to sleep.

36:57

You know? I mean, I pour myself into debates. I sleep pretty well that night, you know?

37:04

In fact, it's sort of hard to turn the brain off for a while. So I very rarely get to sleep very early. So I'm very rarely up early the next morning.

37:10

So by the time I got the call from George, saying that Awal was bagging out,

37:16

I had barely had time for breakfast. Let alone attacking masjids.

37:23

Ridiculous. ... in a conference room that you and him agree upon. Would you debate him again under those conditions?

37:30

Absolutely. If I am given that copy of the debate that we did in the church, of course, why not?

37:36

But as it seems, nobody's given that copy. Meaning, you know, there's something shady going on. There's something shady going on.

37:43

Well, maybe you just contacted the wrong people. Yes. It just occurred to me. Did you just basically say that the debate ended, which would have been what time?

37:51

10, 11 o 'clock? It depends. It was probably around 10. By the time I got back to the hotel, it would be after 11, getting toward midnight.

38:00

Okay, so between 10 p .m. that night, and what time the next morning did you get the call saying that he was not going to debate?

38:08

I don't remember. Less than 12 hours? Are we saying less than 12 hours? Right around, yeah, 12 to 14 hours.

38:13

But all these things happened overnight, in the middle of the night. They did all these things. No, that had nothing to do with that.

38:20

It was because of the arrests of David. That's all it was. False arrests.

38:26

Because the police, of course, have lost that. And David Nabil won their lawsuits and all the rest of that stuff.

38:34

They've been vindicated. But there you go. There's the statements.

38:42

And he says, I'm happy to debate. Good, let's set it up. Let's set it up.

38:50

I'll do it again. Be happy to. Because here's my thesis. Achmed Didat's apologetic is absolutely incapable of survival in any meaningful debate.

39:05

Shabir Ali doesn't use it. Shabir Ali doesn't use it. I wonder if anybody in the mosque in South Africa recognized that.

39:14

I think they did. I think they could tell, you know, he's not using Achmed Didat's arguments.

39:21

No, nor should he. Didat has been shredded from a scholarly perspective.

39:29

And anyone who simply sits there and repeats what he had to say, because they go, well, it sure worked with Jimmy Swaggart, is not going to do well in a debate with any knowledgeable Christian at all.

39:39

Notice I said knowledgeable Christian. Because Didat's entire performance was meant to respond to non -knowledgeable

39:50

Christians. So there's my response.

39:59

Now let me play you a section from that debate so you can watch for yourself. And then if you guys would like to call in, want to talk about what was said, great, super.

40:07

We'll do it. We'll do it. Let's listen to the end of my debate.

40:18

I'm sorry, my cross -examination period. I watched the whole cross -examination period.

40:23

He simply could not answer questions. I mean, the answers to the questions were just, wow.

40:34

And then I want you to hear the questions he's asking me. So I'm going to play probably a good 10 minutes or so, or maybe more.

40:41

So you can see for yourself, watch for yourself. Evidently, this will be the first time anyone's ever seen this. Little did

40:48

I know. I don't know. I do not keep track of these things. I am forward -looking. I rarely, I'm not,

40:54

I'm not algo. I don't spend time listening to my own debates. Sometimes I'll go back and if I'm going to debate somebody again, the same subject or something,

41:01

I might do something like that. But I'm sort of forward -looking as far as that goes.

41:07

I didn't even know that this wasn't available until yesterday. So here it is.

41:13

Here's a portion from the debate at the church. You'll notice there's all sorts of Congo drums and stuff like that in the background.

41:21

But here's a portion of the dialogue between myself and Sheikha Wall. And judge for yourself.

41:28

See, see how you think it went. That's fine. I did want to ask you a question. Why was it that in Saqqakhara 6519510, the concern that was expressed to Abu Bakr after the battle of Yamama was that a large portion of the

41:46

Qur 'an could be lost. I believe the term there is kathir. A large portion of the Qur 'an could be lost if they did not act to collect it from palm stalks, white stones, and the memory of the

41:57

Qur 'an. Is that, is that not a correct? Absolutely right. Okay. Why would there be a fear of the loss of a large portion of the

42:05

Qur 'an if in fact it already had been memorized by a large number of people, especially in light of the fact that that same portion of Sahih al -Bukhari specifically says that at least one ayah of Surah al -Tawbah was only found with one man.

42:20

I think it was Kazami al -Ansari, if I recall correctly. Okay. After the battle of Yamama, there's a lot of Muslims, most of them have memorized the

42:31

Qur 'an. Some is written on the shoulder blade of an animal, the scapular blade, you know, the skin, you know, low lasting quality material.

42:38

Now, when they realize that the hufaz, those who commit the

42:44

Qur 'an to memory are dying through wars. They didn't say they all died, are dying. They realize that.

42:50

So look, why don't we preserve it right away? Because if we allow ourselves for all these hufaz to be, you know, eventually might have been killed in the war, we will lose the

42:59

Qur 'an. These are the hufaz. Some of them were killed, but those who were alive, they are the one that were charged to preserve the

43:06

Qur 'an. Right. So, but why was there a fear that a large portion of it could be lost if it was already in existence?

43:13

That is the fear. No, it's in their memory. Like I said, it's in their memory, they memorized the Qur 'an. There is that fear that if the war keep going, we would lose a large chunk of the

43:22

Qur 'an. So the best thing to do right now is to preserve it. And that's where Usman came in, you know, eventually the

43:29

Zaid, you know, they put it together. And Zaid, it's not like he's the only one that have the

43:34

Qur 'an in memory. He was charged with that only. Sorry. He would have chosen anyone, but he chose, you know,

43:42

Zaid. Could you comment briefly on the statement of Ibn Abi Dawud in Kitab al -Masahif, page 23, where he says,

43:49

Many of the passages of the Qur 'an that were sent down were known by those who died in the day of Yamama, but they were not known by those who survived them, nor were they written down, nor had

43:57

Abu Bakr, Umar, or Usman by that time collected the Qur 'an, nor were they found with even one person after them.

44:03

Could you comment on that statement? Well, Zaid, we know

44:09

Zaid is Hufadh, and that he memorized the Qur 'an in total. We know Sayyidina Ali also memorized the

44:15

Qur 'an. Usman himself is a person who memorized the Qur 'an. So there is no fear, actually, even

44:21

Mas 'ud. He's also someone who memorized the Qur 'an. And so, these people, they're forerunners of the, so to speak, people who can actually preserve the

44:31

Qur 'an. But even Mas 'ud was alive. Zaid was alive. Usman was alive. And they have the

44:37

Qur 'an in memory. So the fear of Qur 'an being lost, actually, is there. So let's put it together.

44:42

Otherwise, it won't happen. But there are still people who have the Qur 'an memorized. And so that fear really is just they panic, but they can still preserve the

44:50

Qur 'an. Going back to one of your statements, you seem to have a problem with the idea that Jesus was born from a line of sinners, which, of course, in the

44:57

Christian perspective, since all have sinned, that would sort of be necessary. Isn't it true that Muhammad's father was a

45:03

Kafir, that Allah refused to allow him to pray for him because he died on Shirk?

45:08

He was a Mushrikeen. Well, I was surprised that you really said his name is

45:14

Abdullah. You know, so how come? That was the argument. How come Abdullah is a servant of Allah and that is

45:20

Muhammad's name? So, you know, then that means they are worshipping Allah. Some people make it look like Allah.

45:26

The Arab Christians are here, and they know the word Allah. Allah is there. The word

45:31

Allah is used with them, and they know. That wasn't my question. My question was if you have a problem with Jesus's progenitors having engaged in sin, and yet Muhammad's own father was a

45:43

Mushrikeen that Allah forbid him to pray for him. Are you using the same standard for your own faith that you're using for the

45:51

Christian faith? You know, the Arabs at the time of Muhammad before the

45:57

Quran started coming to him, they know about God Almighty. They know about God Almighty. They know that God existed.

46:02

They worship the God of Abraham also. So they know who is Allah. They know who is Abdullah. It is all part and parcel of their language.

46:09

So these people have, you know, they are deviating. It's like the

46:14

Jews. It's the history of the Jewish also. Eventually, they'll be going away, and God will send them a new messenger to bring them back to land and on and on and on.

46:22

But his father actually wasn't like, I'm a Muslim, Muhammad taught Islam.

46:28

Islam came after his father, and they fall into the category only Allah will judge them. Most of the Muslims say only

46:33

Allah will judge these people. One last question here. I just interrupt for a moment. Notice I had to give up.

46:39

He wasn't going to answer the question. He doesn't even seem to see the double standard.

46:48

I just have to allow the audience to eventually go, okay, he's not going to answer that question, and you just move on.

46:55

I had to. In the last minute, you have often said the Council of Nicaea had something to do with the canon of scripture. Can you give me anything from the

47:02

Council of Nicaea to substantiate that assertion? Well, we know according to the readings and the research that we made, we believe that in 325

47:13

AD, King Constantine invited Athanasius and Arius, and among other...

47:24

But sir, Athanasius wasn't a bishop in 325. He became a bishop in 328. He was a deacon in 325. He wasn't invited by Constantine.

47:30

So your historical source is what? Some arguments. Some argue that he was there.

47:37

No, not a question. He was there. He was not a bishop. But what source do you have, a scholarly source that says the

47:43

Council of Nicaea had anything to do with the canon of scripture? They did. They are the ones that come together. Where? And what sources?

47:49

And put it together. What sources, sir? Well, it is in the history of Christendom. What history? All the time.

47:55

What? No, it's not, sir. I teach church history. That's completely untrue. So I'm just asking for the specifics. There is one,

48:01

Reverend T. Doan. Reverend T. Doan. I'm going to continue.

48:09

But for those of you listening, Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon of scripture.

48:16

There is no scholarly source that says otherwise. None. None. This man just heard

48:24

D -Dot say it. And so he just repeats it. He doesn't have any foundation. He doesn't have any sources.

48:29

He's making it up as he's going along. He can't answer the question because he's wrong. We've proven this wrong over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

48:40

But the D -Dot realm of Islamic apologetics doesn't care how many times they're refuted.

48:48

They're very pragmatic. As long as it works for most people, we'll use it again.

48:55

We'll use it again, even if it's untrue. They don't really care whether it's true or not.

49:00

As long as it promotes the position. And that's, says a lot to me.

49:07

In one of his write -ups, he mentioned about the fact that, you know, Athanasius and Arius have to sit down with that.

49:15

Thank you, Sheikh. That Athanasius and Arius sat down with that. Has nothing to do with the question

49:21

I asked. He never gave an answer. And I see it had nothing to do with the canon of scripture. Any debate judge sitting there, judging that.

49:33

Zero, Awal. Zero. None. Nada. On any standard debate level.

49:44

Just try for a second to lay aside your prejudice. And realize that was, that was obvious.

49:57

Sheikh, you now have 15 minutes to cross -examine Dr. White. Okay. All right,

50:03

Mr. White. Um, in Luke 2, 21, it mentioned, this is to establish the fact that, the

50:12

Bible is actually the word of God. And you've been asking me, see if I could bring any contradiction or anything that is not consistent with each other.

50:20

We find in Luke 2, verse 21, where when he was eight days old, Christ, he was circumcised and named by the angel

50:26

Jesus. And yet we find in the book of Galatians 5, verse 2, Paul is saying that, but I, Paul, I'm telling you, whosoever is circumcised will not, you know, you know, will fall down from grace.

50:37

How could that be? Jesus Christ is circumcised. All the prophets were circumcised. Jesus Christ is circumcised following the law of Moses.

50:43

How come, you know, Paul actually canceled the circumcision? Why would he? Very simple misapprehension of the text that I've heard you repeat many, many times,

50:50

Sheikh Awal. It's a simple matter of context. It's allowing context to stand. Jesus was a Jew born under the law and therefore he was circumcised.

50:58

In the book of Galatians, Paul is talking about the fact that circumcision avails nothing in obtaining the grace of God and that it is not required for Gentiles to become

51:08

Jews to experience the grace of God. Therefore, when the Judaizers were coming along and contradicting the apostolic teaching of faith in Jesus Christ and saying, no, faith in Christ is not enough.

51:19

You first have to be circumcised, enter into the covenant people of the Old Testament before you can then experience the

51:24

New Testament. That is what Paul is saying. And his specific teaching is that circumcision has been fulfilled in regeneration, in the spirit coming and regenerating us and making us new creatures in Jesus Christ.

51:37

It's a simple matter of allowing Paul to speak for Paul, sir. You have misrepresented him many, many times in your public talks that I've listened to on that subject.

51:44

I would highly recommend that you read Paul more closely. Well, Mr. White, well, that is your assumption because we found

51:52

Jesus Christ based on what you just said. Matthew 5, 17, he said, do not think that I've come to destroy the law of Moses and the prophet.

51:58

I've come to fulfill. So to fulfill is to do it and to teach those who will come after him to do it. You've completely misunderstood the meaning of fulfill as Jesus himself defined it.

52:09

He didn't cancel it. He came to fulfill it. And if he fulfilled it, his followers should follow him too. So how come, you know...

52:15

Sir, you've completely missed not only the message of Matthew, but the message of Jesus who is being recorded by Matthew.

52:21

When Matthew 5, 17 says he's not come to destroy, he's come to fulfill. What does it mean to fulfill?

52:27

What does it mean to complete that? The entire message of the New Testament is that Jesus has fulfilled all righteousness.

52:32

He has fulfilled the righteousness that you and I could not fulfill in our place.

52:39

And that is why when we are united with him, we have a perfect righteousness that we could never have of our own. So I just allow

52:45

Matthew to speak for Matthew. I do not arbitrarily cut him off. That is your interpretation.

52:51

Well, that's... But you're giving your interpretation and your interpretation is not derived from the text. It's derived from the

52:56

Quran. I'm only saying what he said. He himself. He said, do not think... Look at the words carefully.

53:02

That I have come to destroy. In other words, I've come to fulfill. I'm not come to tell you don't do the law of Moses. What happened in Matthew 19, 16?

53:09

A man came to Christ. He's a good master. What good thing must I do to enter eternal life? And what did he say?

53:15

Why do you call me good for? The only one that is good is the father. But if you want to... He does not say the father, sir. He says there is only one who is good.

53:21

You have misquoted that. No, it's not misquoted. I'm just, you know... Because Jesus is pointing out that he doesn't know who he's dealing with.

53:28

This is a description of deity to Jesus that you're missing. So he asked them, the only one that is good is the father in heaven.

53:36

But he does not say the only one as good as the father in heaven, sir. What did he say? There is only one who is good.

53:41

That is good. Well, it's the same thing, you see. No, it's not the same thing. Because he's identifying himself as being good, sir.

53:49

No, no, no, no, no. The only one that is good is the father in heaven. In other words, he's rejecting that goodness. Now, you see, everybody in the audience can see that this man cannot reason on this level.

54:01

Refuses to reason on this level. All he knows is what he's gotten from DDOT. And so he has to literally change the text to fit his perspective.

54:13

And everybody in the audience can see this. Everybody understand what's going on. You're having to work.

54:19

You have to add words to the text. They're not there to change it. Even though he is good. We know Christ is good. We know he's good to the letter.

54:24

But he's saying it out of fear of God. You know, humble, humility. And then he said the only way that you would get to eternal life is to fulfill the law and the commandment.

54:34

Didn't he say that? No, he did not. No, he did not, sir. I have never heard you complain. I have never heard you.

54:39

Sir, I have never heard you accurately represent that story. Because every time you have told the story, you stop before the end of the encounter.

54:48

At the end of the encounter, the man says, I've done all these things from my youth up. And Jesus' response is,

54:53

One thing you lack, sell all that you possess. And what? And what,

54:58

Sheikha Wall? Come follow me. I understand that part. Is that the

55:03

Mosaic Law, sir? But yes, it's... What does the Mosaic Law say to sell all you possess? Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohim, Adonai Yehud.

55:11

Isn't that... Didn't he say that one first? He said that. So how is... Shema Yisrael. Here, the Lord our God, the

55:16

Lord is one. Yes. If you will do that, and then, you know, that shall not kill, that shall not commit adultery.

55:21

He has found some of the Ten Commandments. You are actually connecting two different stories together, but it doesn't matter.

55:27

The Commandments. Actually, what he was teaching there, no matter how you try to dress it, he's teaching that you have to follow the

55:32

Law of Moses. No, he's not, sir. What is he saying? He is pointing out that this man who has come to him, who said he has fulfilled that law, had not fulfilled that law, because he then says,

55:44

One thing you lack. And he identifies the fact that this man has idols, his personal possessions.

55:52

So when he says, Sell all that you have. He's demonstrating that while he thought he had fulfilled the second half of the

55:57

Decalogue, he had actually violated the first half. He was committing shirk. He had idols.

56:04

They were his possessions. And Jesus identified the fact that he was self -righteous. You've simply missed that text every time you've used it, sir.

56:11

No, I didn't, Mr. White. It is just a matter of principle, because Christ is telling them, plain and simple statement, that the only way you get to heaven is to follow the

56:17

Law of Moses. Did he say the Law of Moses in that text? Well, you don't have to come and say the Law of Moses, but what he was telling him to do is to follow the

56:25

Ten Commandments of Moses. No, that's not what he said, sir. I just asked the audience, read the text.

56:34

When Christ says, Shema Yisrael, hear O Israel, the Lord, isn't it the first commandment? So how could

56:41

Jesus pick one commandment and leave the rest of the commandments? If you follow one commandment, you have to follow the whole commandment. Actually, he said that there were two.

56:47

The two greatest commandments. The first commandment is to Shema, then love your neighbor as yourself. And he said that those summarize the

56:52

Law. That's fine. Which one of us has ever done that perfectly? That's why we need a

56:57

Savior, sir. No, which Savior? Someone to die for us? Is that what you mean? Yes, sir. Well, but the

57:03

Book of Ezekiel didn't say that. What Jesus said, He came to fulfill. Actually, in the

57:08

Book of Ezekiel, you've also misrepresented repeatedly, because you ignore the fact that the saying that Ezekiel 18 is referring to is the fact that people of Israel are saying, we don't need to repent because of that saying that the fathers eat sour grapes and our teeth have been set on edge.

57:24

So they're saying, look, we're suffering because of what our parents did. There's no reason for us to repent. And Ezekiel says to them, no, if you will do righteousness, you will be accepted of God.

57:33

If you do sin, that's all Ezekiel is dealing with. You ignore the fact that Ezekiel comes after the

57:39

Mosaic Law that gave us the sacrifices, which point to their fulfillment in Jesus Christ. You're cutting the

57:44

Bible up, shake a wall in a way I would never do to the crowd. No, Mr. White, but this law and the commandment that Jesus Christ have fulfilled, including circumcision, which we find people have canceled it.

57:57

Now you try to make it look like, okay, Paul, it's okay to cancel it. Paul have canceled so many things which Jesus Christ said, do not cancel.

58:02

And he canceled that. In the Book of Genesis 17, it talks about this circumcision. It's very important in the Hebraic law.

58:09

And Jesus did it, all of them did it. So how come nobody who's supposed to follow Jesus do it? Paul have canceled it.

58:14

Because we accept the fact that, interestingly enough, early Muslims also believed that Bulus was sent by God.

58:23

Ibn Kathir tells us that in the interpretation of Surah 37, there were early Muslims who recognized and believed that the three messengers sent to the city there in that Surah, one of them was

58:34

Bulus, who was Paul. I'm not trying to argue that point. The point is that this later attack upon Paul is not represented in the

58:42

Quran. Where does the Quran ever say anything about the Apostle Paul? Where does the Hadith ever tell you that the

58:49

Apostle Paul was a false teacher who promoted church? No, in the Quran, we were told that the gospel was given to Jesus himself.

58:58

The gospel was given to Jesus. The Quran didn't tell the gospel was given to Paul. So when Jesus says something, we measure it by what

59:04

Paul said. Now, if you analyze it closely, you can see that what Jesus said is different and what Paul said is different.

59:10

I totally disagree. Totally disagree. And of course, the point is that when you attempt to reason with someone who has not studied

59:22

Paul, this man doesn't know Paul. He wouldn't know Paul from a tree stump. He's no expert in Paul.

59:28

He doesn't know anything about the backgrounds, hasn't studied the languages, none of that stuff. But what he's been told is

59:34

Paul's the big baddie. He's the bad one. And what you've just been watching is when you try to reason with someone, when you try to point out, well, there is a harmonization here.

59:44

There is a way of understanding how the New Testament is speaking about something consistently here. Won't have it.

59:50

Can't give you any reason other than won't have it. And the real problem is, of course, the ultimate authority he's following, the

01:00:00

Quran was written by someone who likewise was utterly ignorant of Paul. Had no idea any word he ever wrote.

01:00:08

No idea any word he ever wrote. And so you have an anachronistic rejection of the deep interaction that you find in Paul that you find in Hebrews with the

01:00:24

Old Testament text. The themes, the fulfillments won't have anything to do with it because you follow that one source.

01:00:34

So you might want to set a little alarm or something like that. Remind you, when that debate is posted, and like I said, we will start uploading it as soon as we're done with the program.

01:00:48

You might want to watch it and compare the presentations and compare the interactions and compare the questions and compare the closing statements and then ask yourself a real honest question.

01:01:02

In light of what we have said today, in light of the information that we've given you, why did

01:01:10

Sheikha Wal not do the second debate? Now, look, if the people at the mosque simply told him, you're not going to do it, fine.

01:01:23

The possibility exists that Sheikha Wal doesn't even realize how badly he did in this debate.

01:01:31

It's a possibility. Possibility. So he may have wanted to and they said, we're putting you up so we get to tell you what to do.

01:01:41

Possibility. All I know is the story we were told had to do with the now legally defined false arrests.

01:01:52

We've all seen the videos, the arrests of Nagin and Nabil and David Wood and so on and so forth there.

01:02:03

At the Arab festival. And that's just what it was about. And it had nothing to do with deceptiveness.

01:02:11

It had nothing to do with any of that stuff. So why the new story?

01:02:17

I don't know. I don't know. Are we ready to go? No? Oh, so you're trying to call.

01:02:25

Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry. Okay. All right. So Rich is trying to get hold of you, Jaz. And so I'll tell you what.

01:02:35

Once you get them on, let me know. We'll just keep letting this play.

01:02:41

Until you get them on. Okay. I totally disagree. I do not believe that that would be substantiable from any meaningful interpretation text.

01:02:49

That would use the same standard you use in interpreting the Quran in interpreting the New Testament.

01:02:55

You don't allow for those same standards. Inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument. Okay. Mr. White, would you like to comment on this verse like John 5, verse 4?

01:03:05

That's the KJV version. It says this whole verse was expunged from the Revised Standard Version. John 5, verse 4 is part of a major textual variant.

01:03:15

It is not found in any of the earliest manuscripts of the New Testament, which is why it is noted in all critical editions of the

01:03:23

Greek New Testament, including the one sitting to your right hand side, and is recognized as a later edition.

01:03:31

So that's why there is a lot of discrepancy in the KJV version. The KJV version was based upon the

01:03:36

Textus Receptus, which was the work of Desiderius Erasmus beginning in 1516. In fact, the KJV was based upon seven primary

01:03:44

Greek texts, the five editions of Erasmus, the 1555 of Stephanos, and the 1598 of Beza. However, all of those were based upon about six manuscripts.

01:03:51

Okay. Thank you for that. Real quick. Okay. We ready to go?

01:04:00

Ready to go. Okay. So we are talking on air now with Ijaz Ahmed.

01:04:06

Ijaz, greetings. Welcome to the program. Thank you for your greetings, James. It's a pleasure to be here.

01:04:12

Can you hear me clearly? Pretty clearly. Not quite Skype quality, but good enough.

01:04:19

Okay. Well, James, is there anything you'd like to discuss? Because I can give you a pretty fundamental reason why

01:04:26

Sheikh Obaid refused that second debate. I'm not sure if you're familiar with 204 or 140.

01:04:34

It says, and indeed, he has revealed to you in the book that when you hear others' communications, disbelief in and mocked at, do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse.

01:04:46

And I do believe that you are familiar with David Wood and Sam Shamim, and the Muslim community does not take it lightly, as given in the context of the verse

01:04:55

I've just read, that you associate yourself with persons who, you said earlier in the program, made a lot of mistakes, for example,

01:05:04

David Wood's treason and so on. So it's a matter of principle that we will not give you an audience for a person who associates himself with persons who demonize, mock, lie about Islamic tensions.

01:05:18

And you are familiar with the personalization of David Wood and Sam Shamim.

01:05:24

Surely you do not stand up and defend their means of - Okay, hold on a second, Ijaz, Ijaz, Ijaz, how was

01:05:30

I any more or less associated with Sam Shamim and David Wood the day before this debate than the day after?

01:05:38

Not the day before, the day after. You have to look at it synoptically, James. Are you denying that you have a relationship with these individuals?

01:05:46

You share a platform with them? Of course not, of course not. But Ijaz, that would have been true the day before the debate.

01:05:53

So why did he debate me the first time? He debated you the first time because he did not know of what happened with David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi.

01:06:03

And what came out of that arrest was that a negative light was not only put on the Muslim community, it meant then that the

01:06:10

Muslim community was engaging with a bunch of right -wing radicals who were being arrested and were violent at the

01:06:16

Arab festival. Okay, wait, wait, wait, Ijaz, Ijaz, Ijaz, Ijaz, hold on a second. First of all, have you seen the video of the arrest?

01:06:24

Yeah, I did, I did, when it first came out. Where was, okay, so where, wait, wait, wait, where was the violence?

01:06:30

Ijaz, where was the violence? I'm speaking on the public perception, but I'm not speaking on my perspective.

01:06:37

Okay. The public perception of what happened at the Dearborn festival was that violence occurred.

01:06:43

And there are videos of people throwing things and kissing, not relevant to what

01:06:49

David did, but everyone is grouped into either Muslim or Christian. And what came out of that festival was that people associated with Dr.

01:06:58

James Wright of Alpha and Omega Ministries, of ABN TV. These people were violent, there were arrests, and that cast a really dark cloud over the following events that should have happened.

01:07:09

Okay, okay, wait, Ijaz, wait a minute. So you're giving a different answer than Sheikha Walgate. He didn't say anything about that, did he?

01:07:16

He did. He mentioned David Wood and Sam Shamoon's behavior, didn't he? He said they were attacking the masjid.

01:07:23

He said they were attacking the masjid. What does that mean? They were attacking the integrity of the masjid. And if you listen to the clip very carefully, he mentioned very specifically that they were attacking the

01:07:33

Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, and insulting him and saying negative things about God. Regardless of whether you're a victim, you can't do that.

01:07:41

Where? At the festival and online, you are friends with Yahya, so you're familiar with Yahya's website.

01:07:48

He has an entire article just published yesterday for the purpose of this interview today to help you refresh your memory on what

01:07:55

Sam Shamoon and David Wood said during that time. Okay, all right. So the arrests, which weren't mentioned, are the attack on the masjid?

01:08:06

He mentioned it to you, didn't he, Pastor George? That's the thing George is speaking about.

01:08:11

You were informed that the arrests and the connotations, the perception from that arrest were that a radical right -wing

01:08:20

Christian group was violent, they were arrested, and that cast a really, really negative light on the masjid and...

01:08:28

Okay, so we know, first of all, that that was a lie. So we can put that aside.

01:08:35

There was no violence. They didn't do anything like that. The documents are clear on that. I wouldn't consider it a lie,

01:08:41

James, because at that festival, there was violence between Muslims and Christians. And I believe, not last year, because last year, they canceled the festival.

01:08:49

The year before that, you had Christians accompanied by... Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. It had nothing to do with this. At ZipZeroNot, you're getting anachronistic.

01:08:56

This is 2012. You're talking about the King James Only guys who stood outside my church and protested me.

01:09:04

Same guys. So that's irrelevant. I don't think they're the same guys, but these people were... It was, trust me,

01:09:09

I know. And they were Christian and Sultan. Okay, so those King James Only guys, the same guys who showed up at Sochi in the

01:09:15

Olympics a few weeks ago, were the same ones that were the ones that were getting stuff thrown at them.

01:09:21

But that was the next year. Had nothing to do with 2012. Was I arrested? Did I go to the

01:09:27

Arab festival? There was violence. Did I go to the Arab festival? No, you didn't, but you are associated with it.

01:09:33

Okay, I reject that. Ijaz, Ijaz, you would be so angry if I started trying to hold you accountable for what radical

01:09:44

Muslims do. I just read an article this morning about Al -Shabaab beheading a

01:09:50

Christian woman in front of her children. I have read worse things about Christians.

01:09:56

And if I held you accountable for that... Ijaz, if I held you accountable for that, would you not be upset with me?

01:10:04

Yes or no? If I held you accountable for the things that Sam Shimon do, why don't you stop them from speaking like the way that they do?

01:10:13

You think I control Sam Shimon? Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Do you think

01:10:18

I can... If Sam's listening, Sam, call in. If Sam's listening, I want

01:10:23

Sam to call in to give testimony. Listen to me, Ijaz, listen to me. I want him to call in if he can to give testimony to the fact that I have more than once spoken with Sam about the differences that he and I have as to the approach.

01:10:45

I am not his elder. He is not a part of my church. I do not tell him what to do or how to do it.

01:10:53

But I have told him more than once that I cannot approach Muslims the way that he does and that I disagree with it.

01:11:03

Ijaz, do me a favor right now. As you're on Air and Life, you share a platform with Sam Shimon on ABN TV.

01:11:09

There are many videos with you doing that with him. I want you to correct that you do not accept his methodology and you denounce the way he attacks and insults

01:11:19

Muslims. Can you do that as a matter of principle? I have more than once told Sam Shimon that I do not believe.

01:11:26

I will make... Look, I will recognize that there are times when the

01:11:32

Muslims are so despicable in their attacks upon Sam that Sam has responded in kind and he will admit that.

01:11:44

And he will admit that. But there are many times,

01:11:49

Ijaz. Ijaz, listen to me. Listen to me. Ijaz, hello.

01:11:56

Will you admit, Ijaz, will you admit that there have been many times that Sam has presented a topic without the slightest bit of insult or attack and the only thing he's gotten back has been nastiness and insult toward him?

01:12:17

Yes or no? I can't. I spent half an hour with him on PowerTalk and for 20 minutes, he insulted my mother, my father, my family.

01:12:25

Every case under the... Every case that you can imagine. Can you... That discussion...

01:12:30

Look... No, I can't get in my personal experience with him. You can't what? I'm sorry.

01:12:36

I'm sorry, what? You can't what? I cannot testify that Sam Shimon is an honest and person with integrity who does not insult from the get -go.

01:12:45

Okay, okay. Would you listen to me, Ijaz? Ijaz, will you listen to me?

01:12:52

Can you admit that he has made presentations that are not dependent upon that kind of behavior specifically?

01:13:04

Wait a minute. Specifically the ones that we have done together. No, I can't express my opinion.

01:13:11

Then you're irrational because anyone can watch them and see it. That's true. No, then you're being dishonest.

01:13:17

Okay, James, in your Psalm 63 verse 11, those who swear by the Lord will rejoice in him.

01:13:23

Swear by Yahweh, if you can, which by your God, David has pronounced in the psalm. And tell me that you are a man of integrity and what

01:13:31

Sam does is honest sometimes. Can you take that oath? That what Sam does is honest sometimes?

01:13:39

Is that what you just said? Yeah. No, that Sam does not attack Muslims in a vicious, mendacious, evil, and, you know, unrestrained manner.

01:13:48

Can you do that for me? Okay, one more time. One more time, Ijaz, because everyone's listening to us.

01:13:54

Everyone's listening to us. There have been many, and in fact, the majority of times, and I don't even know why we're talking about this because this is supposed to be shake a wall, but, and I think everyone can see now the reasons were actually vacuous, but get back to the subject.

01:14:10

That's your claim, I don't accept that. Well, I think it's pretty obvious that everybody watch it themselves. There's been no deceptiveness or anything else about the debate.

01:14:19

But here's what I've said about Sam. Hold on, James, James, James, I have a question on you, James. No, no, no, we're not done with the last point.

01:14:25

You asked me to do something and I'm going to answer the question. Look, there are many, in fact, the vast majority of times that Sam Shamoon addresses topics every single time that Sam and I have been on together.

01:14:43

We haven't done all that many together, but every single time that Sam and I have been on together, he has not engaged in the activities you've accused him of.

01:14:53

That is a fact. You cannot dispute it. I do not dispute that there have been times when

01:14:59

Sam has lost control of himself and has given just as much as he was taking.

01:15:05

There's no question about that. And I have contacted him and I have,

01:15:10

I have exhorted him and we have had direct and rather frank disagreement.

01:15:18

But for you to hold me accountable for everything Sam Shamoon does and then turn around and say,

01:15:26

I should not hold you accountable for everything neither Ahmed does or somebody else does is pure hypocrisy.

01:15:34

I don't approve of Nadir Ahmed. I do, that's not hypocrisy. You have a relationship, a public relationship with Sam Shamoon.

01:15:41

I don't have a public relationship with Nadir Ahmed. So you're conflating two issues. You're being very inconsistent.

01:15:47

When you say, when you say you do not have a public relationship with him, what do you mean? He's not a Muslim? I don't share debates with him.

01:15:54

I don't share a floor with him. I don't share a website with him. But you sit side by side. Is he a Muslim? Shoulder by shoulder with...

01:16:00

Is he a Muslim? I don't follow up with him.

01:16:05

If you have a professional religious relationship with Sam Shamoon, you cannot deny that.

01:16:11

When you stand shoulder to shoulder with Sam Shamoon, I don't accept what he says, and you are responsible for what he does.

01:16:18

Can you answer my question? All right. Hold on a second, Ijaz. I want to bring someone on the air to answer a simple question for us.

01:16:27

Yes, sir. Sam, are you there? Hey, brother, how are you? Pretty good.

01:16:33

Hey, have you been listening? Yeah. In fact, Dr. White, I even apologize that you have to even do this.

01:16:39

Okay, Sam, let's cut to the quick. Have you and I had some pretty straightforward conversations?

01:16:45

You have definitely told me that no matter what they say, I should not respond in kind because that's not the way a

01:16:52

Christian should handle the situation. And I have the emails to prove it. So yes, you have been forthright and you've been consistent.

01:16:58

Have I ever made your standing before God dependent upon what

01:17:03

I thought of you? What you thought of me? No, you made my standing before God on the basis of what

01:17:10

Scripture says, not what you thought of me. Okay. What Scripture says. All right. To the Lord and what the Bible says, yes.

01:17:15

And I commend you for that. You've been consistent. But here, he's not just lying and flannering me, he's walking in front of me,

01:17:21

David Wood. And I've known how interesting, when you asked him, will he condemn the Muslims who've come after me?

01:17:26

In fact, just recently, Dr. White, you know that my mother went to be with the... I do know that, yes, I'm sorry.

01:17:32

Will this gentleman condemn Yahia Smith, who just posted something a couple days after my mother, mentioning her past in order to take a shot at me.

01:17:41

It's on his blog post, where he says, Helen Shimon passes away and Sam Shimon is back at bashing

01:17:48

Islam. He couldn't control his venom. He has to mention my mother in the context of condemning me.

01:17:55

But see, for the life of me, I can't understand how these Muslims think. Because if me returning to the work that the

01:18:00

Lord has called me to do is Islamic bashing, then I wonder what they're going to say about their prophet, who shortly after Khadijah died and Abu Talib died, he went back condemning the disbelievers and threatening them with violence under the name of his

01:18:14

God. So does that mean that Muhammad stands condemned by that same criterion? Will Ijaz condemn Yahia and Muhammad?

01:18:20

I want to hear it live so it can be recorded for future... You can then try. Can I be heard here?

01:18:26

Can I be heard? Sure, yeah. You haven't been muted. Please, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

01:18:31

Okay, that's very good. Thank you. Sam, tell me, are you still here? I can barely hear you, but go ahead.

01:18:38

Ijaz, Ijaz, our connection is really difficult, so would it be possible for you to try to slow down a little bit and enunciate a little more clearly?

01:18:46

Because I don't know if you can see the video, but I'm having to try to cram my earbuds into my ears to understand what you're saying sometimes.

01:18:53

Is my accent difficult to understand? No, it's just the connection, the only way

01:18:59

I could describe it is fuzzy. Okay. Okay. So go ahead, please try.

01:19:05

Let me adjust mine. Hold on, let me adjust. Okay. Sam, can you please answer this question honestly for me?

01:19:13

You and I had a discussion on PalTalk a couple of months ago. Can you please explain the language that you used towards me the moment

01:19:21

I entered into that room? I'll do you even better, but that recording is online for everyone to listen to, so I encourage you to hold on.

01:19:30

I'm asking your question, you're cutting me off. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on a second. They have asked you for the raw audio form, and you have refused to provide it.

01:19:38

There he goes again with the slander in the line. Okay. You will not release it until you command her to give it to me.

01:19:43

So why was it edited? Why was it uploaded? And why did you attach Venom?

01:19:49

Do you want me to answer, or do you want me to keep going? Okay, okay, two things. Two things, hold on a second. I'm going to have to be the moderator here. I didn't expect this.

01:19:55

Go ahead. A, Ajaz, we still need to hear from you about Yaya and whether, because you do have a relationship there.

01:20:04

If you're going to hold me accountable for everything Sam does, then I guess you've got to go the same direction.

01:20:10

And secondly, Sam, something about editing the PalTalk audio. So let's start.

01:20:16

Sam, what about the PalTalk audio? And then Ajaz, we come back to you. I want to know about Yaya Snow. Uh, he's referring to an exchange that we had that didn't take more than 10 minutes to expose his fallacies and his inconsistencies and his inability to defend

01:20:30

Islam. It's there on YouTube. He accuses me of editing the debate.

01:20:36

Well, I wouldn't even call it a debate. It was impromptu, and he didn't last much long in the discussion.

01:20:41

Number one, I don't record the sessions on PalTalk. Number two, nothing was edited between him and I.

01:20:48

The only things that are edited in my sessions on PalTalk are unnecessary side comments or conversations that have nothing to do with the topic.

01:20:57

Nothing was left out between our exchanges. The only thing that would have been left out is either side comments that were not relevant to the topic or people asking, not people asking, but people bringing up other issues and me addressing them and telling them kindly, please, because what

01:21:15

I do in PalTalk, and it's in all my recordings, and people on PalTalk can testify to this. I often tell people when

01:21:20

I'm answering a question or when I'm beginning a session, no texting, because what happens is

01:21:27

I pay attention to all the text, and if people bring up relevant issues, they throw me off. And sometimes people don't respect that wish, and so I have to address them.

01:21:35

That's the only thing that is edited out of these conversations. So again, he's lying. The record stands.

01:21:41

Go ahead. Okay, now see, and I've talked to Sam about this before. This is where, just on a interaction level,

01:21:51

I would speak differently than you would. Obviously, there's a disagreement here. I'm trying to tamp down the emotions, so if both of you can help me with that,

01:22:00

I'd appreciate it. Now, Ijaz, you have a different understanding, but I want to know about Sam's, I want to know about Sam's question first, because you didn't address it.

01:22:11

Okay. Okay, given Sam's question, can I quote of this of the Quran? It says, So I cannot claim to know what

01:22:33

Yahya Snow did. This is a claim of Sam's. I will look at the website, and if it is there,

01:22:38

I'll speak to Yahya, and if possible, I'll put something on my website denouncing if any attack was done on Sam's, you know, mother.

01:22:47

But as Sam himself can testify, I have encouraged my fans, sorry, not my fans, the people on my

01:22:54

Facebook page, to praise for Sam's daughter when she was sick, and I've actually posted that to my website.

01:22:59

I've made prayers for Sam's daughters, I remember, when she was taken to the ER. So, um,

01:23:05

I... Did you catch that, Sam? Yeah, I mean, I like the comment. And by the way, Dr. Light, even in my session, you'll see,

01:23:12

I speak very loud and passionately, and I'm trying to work on that. It's not because I'm angry. I'm not even angry at this young man.

01:23:18

I have no anger towards him. But now he just said, in order to appeal to emotion, he's asked people to pray for my mother.

01:23:25

Was that before? I think he said to your daughters. I think he said to your daughters. Oh, my daughter, okay, I'm sorry. Okay, my daughter. Was that before or after you also posted slanderous posts falsely accusing me of lying, editing, or perverting sources?

01:23:39

Would you not just do with me? Now, let's say I'm the bad guy. Okay, Dr. Light, he's got me. I'm a jerk. I'm not

01:23:45

Christ -like. Shame on me. Why, then, does he treat Samuel Green with the same disdain and disrespect?

01:23:52

Go on his blog. Yeah, I saw it. In fact,

01:23:57

Ejaz, because our time is running out, and I didn't expect this to happen, but I did have to ask you,

01:24:06

Ejaz, because you've said you would be willing to debate. But I had to ask you a question. And I think

01:24:12

I gave you some indication that I was going to ask you this. Shortly after my debate with Zakir Hussain on 20

01:24:20

September, I guess, I'm assuming this is 2012 because I think it's the year it was, wasn't it? Yeah, it was 2012. You put up a article called

01:24:28

Zakir Hussain baptizes James White. I had not seen this until today, actually, at least that I remember.

01:24:35

It's up on my website. Yes, calling Christians. I just did a search for Zakir plus baptizes.

01:24:44

That's what brought it up. It's 20 September. I'm assuming 2012. There's no year on it. I don't know why.

01:24:50

But has a picture of me. Claims to be Greek New Testament scholar. Can't read Greek in public. Yep, thank you.

01:24:57

Yeah, well, just hold on, Sam. I love you,

01:25:04

Dr. White. Well, dial it down, brother. Dial it down. Okay, I'm trying to be nice here.

01:25:11

My assumption, looking at it here. You said

01:25:17

James released an article conceding to his clear ineptitude, inability to respond to well -founded research and lack of basic comprehension skills.

01:25:30

Now, Ijaz, do you think that's a fair analysis of the article that I posted after the debate?

01:25:39

Do you want me to be honest here? Do you want me to be honest? I do. Okay, I can level those same kinds of accusations against your reasoning with Sheikh Ahmed Dida.

01:25:50

Don't you do the same thing to him? Just at the beginning of this show, you do the same thing.

01:25:56

No, no, I don't. Who I'm speaking to right now. He mentioned that same point to me. I have him here with me right now online.

01:26:04

And I find it very strange. You're condemning me for using language that you use in respect to Sheikh Ahmed Dida.

01:26:11

Why don't you comment on your experience and emotions? Okay, a couple things here,

01:26:17

Ijaz. I have posted entire videos. I have done multi -hour programs where I have played

01:26:27

Dida. I have bored my audience into tears where I have played

01:26:34

Dida, allowed him to speak, and then I have refuted him from the text of the

01:26:42

Bible. But he's a dead man. Dr. White, can I say something? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. He's a dead man? Of course he's a dead man.

01:26:48

How else am I supposed to respond to him? Yeah. Dr. White, can I say something? Hold on, hold on just a second,

01:26:55

Sam. Just give me a sec. In response to something Sam said. Sam, I do believe you're being quite dishonest.

01:27:02

That recording online is 30 minutes. And the reason I was not allowed to speak was because you docketed me incessantly.

01:27:09

And just to remind you, at the beginning of that conversation, which is 30 minutes long on YouTube, by the way, we're not 10 minutes.

01:27:16

You seem to be confused with your other arguments. You mocked and you insulted me for 25 of those minutes.

01:27:23

Okay, all right, look, look. I want you to do me a favor, Sam. Hold on, James. Sam, I want you to do me a favor. I want you to ask me if you're the person who has the recording.

01:27:31

You edited the debate on your behalf. She told me first when I testified by God that she knew some of the insults which you graciously called side comments just now.

01:27:40

They weren't side comments. That's right. You see how he talks. The point about you being an ass and not compensating.

01:27:46

Well, yeah, I'll get to that. I'll get to that in a moment. But I just want to allow him to make the challenge.

01:27:52

I don't know anything about what you guys are talking about. Trust me. It was the Paltalk exchange.

01:27:57

And again, the editing and - I know. I'm going to have to let you all work out Paltalk because I detest

01:28:04

Paltalk. I know. And this is probably a good reason why we do.

01:28:11

But - How much time do we have left? Well, actually, what I want to do here, first of all,

01:28:18

Sam, thank you for calling in. All right, brother. I just want everybody to hear from you that you and I have had some direct discussions on this subject.

01:28:33

And that we approach things a little bit differently. I've never said you need to be just like me.

01:28:38

And you've never told me to be just like you. And that that's the way it should be. So I appreciate your confirming that.

01:28:44

The Lord bless you. And I hope the conversation goes forward. OK, thanks. Thanks, Sam. Thank you very much. All right.

01:28:50

Thank you, Sam, for your calling. OK, now, Ejaz, the problem we've got here is that you're using a fallacy saying, well, if Sam has done it to somebody else, then

01:29:05

I can do it to you. And what we're talking about is you and I debating. I did not say that.

01:29:11

But that's what you just said. That was your response to my reading of this. Now, for example -

01:29:17

No, I said to you, James, I said to you clearly that you do to Ahmed Didat what I do to you.

01:29:23

OK, but I - OK, now,

01:29:29

Ejaz, the difference being that when you wrote this article, the graphic that you -

01:29:38

Did you produce the graphic? Of course I did. OK. OK, the graphic you produced, that was in reference to the fact that -

01:29:49

Your mistake. That I said that when I attempted to say,

01:29:54

NRK, Nhalagas, Nhalagas, Nhalagas, Nhalagas, that I got tongue -tied.

01:30:01

Now - Yeah, you did. Now, first of all, was I reading something?

01:30:07

No, but you said you - OK, so I was citing something from memory, right? Wait a second.

01:30:15

You just played a clip of Sheikh Awal misquoting something, and you condemned him because you were just citing from memory.

01:30:22

And then you played the audio and cut in after that. OK. So can't I apply the same principle and clap and laugh at you?

01:30:27

No, actually - Actually, excuse me, excuse me, Ejaz. I had corrected him on the reading more than once, and he insisted upon continuing to get it wrong.

01:30:40

This - But he's reading from his memory. Ejaz, Ejaz. How many times - It's not a mistake, your word for it.

01:30:45

It's a debate. Don't you realize that? Ejaz, listen to me. Ejaz, listen to me. I'm trying, sir.

01:30:52

I am trying to reason with you. But you are not reasoning with me. I have -

01:30:59

Any honest person, any honest person, Ejaz, knows that, first of all,

01:31:05

I was quoting the Greek. I was not reading the Greek. Right? I'm still with Sheikh Awal.

01:31:12

Continue. It has nothing to do with that. Any honest person also knows -

01:31:18

Situation. OK, I put you on hold. I'm sorry. I hate to have to do that. But you will not listen. And we're paying for this call.

01:31:25

So it's not the other way around. Let's try this one more time. Any honest person knows that over the past 20 years,

01:31:34

I have quoted John 1 -1 in Greek at least a thousand times in debates, lectures, and things like that.

01:31:45

And that it's not a matter of reading. Anyone who has read my books knows that, of all the things

01:31:53

I've done, I do know New Testament Greek. So here's the question. I'm gonna bring it back up.

01:31:59

And hopefully you can answer it. Why put a graphic on the screen alleging that a person who has taught

01:32:10

Greek on the graduate level since 1995 and that's documentable simply because I got tongue -tied once can't read

01:32:24

Greek in public? And I wasn't even trying to read Greek. I was quoting it. Why do that? Is it a fact, James? Can I be heard or are you still putting me on hold?

01:32:31

No, you're up. OK, thank you. Are you looking at the graphic right now? I'm looking at it.

01:32:38

OK, what does the first line say? Claims to be a Greek New Testament scholar. Do you claim to be that? Yes or no? I have taught

01:32:45

New Testament Greek and on the graduate level, yes. So is that claim true? Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

01:32:50

It is true. OK, and the second thing, you made a mistake in your reading. You couldn't read it properly.

01:32:57

That's not the same thing, is it, Ijaz? That's not the same thing, is it? Can't read

01:33:02

Greek in public. Are you telling me that one single miscitation means

01:33:09

I've never been able to speak Greek in public? I just did to you. The camera just caught me.

01:33:16

Generalization. Hati en auto. Katoikai pontai pleiroma teis theiateta somatikos.

01:33:23

What is that? Two years after. My goodness, man. And I did that years beforehand.

01:33:30

Ijaz, you didn't do your homework and that's dishonest. That is dishonest.

01:33:37

I did my homework. I called you a Greek scholar, see? No, the dishonesty is how many times in how many debates before that debate in London had

01:33:46

I read Greek in public? I don't know, sir. Ijaz, listen, listen, listen.

01:33:52

Listen to me, Ijaz. I admit to it. I will not say it. Ijaz, listen to me. I've told the story.

01:33:59

You listen to this program all the time. I've told the story many times. I'm sorry? I don't listen to you quite often.

01:34:07

I read your post. You read my what? Your blog post. Oh, OK. All right, so you don't.

01:34:12

So I figured with all the comments you make that you do. All right, let me tell you something. You know

01:34:20

Sheikh Yasir Qadhi, yes? No, not personally, but I know of him, yes. You know of him,

01:34:25

OK. Have you ever heard me talk about Sheikh Yasir Qadhi? No, I haven't.

01:34:31

OK. Actually, I think you quoted him in one of your debates. Yeah, with Bassam Zawadi. Yeah, I think so.

01:34:39

OK, continue. I'll go along with it. OK, all right. Anyone who's listened to this program knows that I have spoken of Yasir Qadhi in glowing terms on this program.

01:34:49

I have thanked him for sending me his CD series,

01:34:55

Light and Guidance. I have admitted that I have learned a tremendous amount from Yasir Qadhi.

01:35:02

That I appreciate his focus upon Tawhid and Shirk. All these things are a matter of public record.

01:35:15

I have also told the story about how there was one time, and I believe that Yasir Qadhi is a hafiz.

01:35:24

As far as I can tell, he has memorized the entirety of the Quran. But there was one day in one of his lectures, he had tried to quote.

01:35:36

Normally, it would just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And everybody in this audience who's listened to my Muslim stuff will be able to verify that I've told the story more than once.

01:35:45

Normally, it's just like that. But one day, he just couldn't get it to come.

01:35:50

He would try. He stumbled over himself. He had the exact same situation happen to him that happened to me in that debate.

01:35:59

And what I'd used it as an illustration of, what he used it as an illustration of, was he then stopped and said, well, it's in that surah right hand page at the top.

01:36:11

And it's illustration of the fact that you all use the same printing of the

01:36:16

Arabic Quran, so it was actually a meaningful reference. You could actually find it. But the point was,

01:36:22

I would have been a complete, a completely disingenuous, unkind, unfair person having heard

01:36:34

Yasser Qadhi quote Arabic over and over again to have produced a graphic with his picture on it that says, claims to be

01:36:43

Arabic scholar, can't read Arabic in public, because there's one time he stumbled over a verse and couldn't get it out.

01:36:53

That would have been unfair, untrue, unkind. And he jives, if you can't see that's what you did, then young man, you're blind.

01:37:01

But James, I have a question for you. You produced a video with Sheikh Ahmed Dida doing the same thing with Greek.

01:37:08

And you know, he's not an educated person in the Greek language, but you still mocked him for that. That was unkind, unfair.

01:37:14

I did not mock him. I pointed out that he did not even read the words correctly.

01:37:22

He didn't know what the words are. And he based, he jives, he based his entire argument upon a misidentification of the

01:37:31

Greek terms that shows he can't read the language. I simply missed,

01:37:36

I simply messed up. I messed up a line that I had quoted from Greek from memory hundreds of times beforehand.

01:37:46

I've never been wrong about what the actual language was. If you can't see the difference, once again, young man, you're not reasoning.

01:37:57

Just, would you not, would you, Ijaz, would you just, would you just think about what

01:38:02

I've said to you? Would you just consider that maybe, just maybe you do use a different standard?

01:38:10

Because I judge you the same way you judge Sheikh Ahmed Dida. No, you do not. You attack all the time.

01:38:16

All right. Thank you. Why don't you argue it over some criticism? Ijaz, thank you. Everyone knows that when

01:38:22

I respond to Ahmed Dida, I let Dida speak and then I refute them. That is not what you're doing here.

01:38:30

You didn't refute my, my usage of John one, one. You didn't refute the original languages.

01:38:35

All you were doing was mocking a misstatement of words, which if I did to my opponents, no one would listen to me.

01:38:42

And nor, nor should they do that all the time. Do not do not. It's false. It's false.

01:38:48

That comes in agreement here. James, can we come to an agreement? Will you agree to debate me on a topic on the

01:38:55

Bible? Right now, Ijaz, honestly, if you can't see the difference between my refuting,

01:39:04

Ahmed Dida did not simply have it right about John one, one and miss it. If you'll remember, he put the

01:39:11

Greek on the screen and it was wrong. That's not what I did.

01:39:18

I put nothing. There was no error. Was there any error in the original languages in my presentation on the screen in that debate with Zaka Hussein?

01:39:27

Yes or no? I don't think so. There wasn't. Are you actually alleging?

01:39:33

Are you actually alleging in light of what you have on your website that I cannot read Greek? I'm alleging that you made a mistake during that debate.

01:39:43

And I made that quite clear. Okay. And it wasn't reading Greek, was it? It was citing a text from memory.

01:39:51

Did Ahmed Dida? Was he citing a text from memory or did he put it on the screen?

01:39:58

He was citing from memory, but it was put on the screen post editing. You know that post editing on the same page.

01:40:06

And his entire argument was based upon what? A proper or an improper reading of the

01:40:13

Greek. He made a mistake. He made a mistake. He misrepresented the Greek, not simply by citation, but by argument, wasn't it?

01:40:20

Did I do that with John one, one? Yes or no? He learned a mistake. You didn't. It's a different.

01:40:26

He learned a mistake? Yeah. If he could read the text, how could he not know it was a mistake?

01:40:36

He got a translation. Just like you can't even pronounce it. So he couldn't read. So he could not read the

01:40:44

Greek, could he? I don't know. I don't think he had knowledge. I don't think he was taught enough.

01:40:50

All right. You want to talk about debating you? Where would this debate take place?

01:40:56

London. London, possibly set up a venue. Something that maybe same place you debated.

01:41:03

Sounds good. Well, at East London Mosque, that'd be great.

01:41:09

That'd be great. Possibility. Possibility right now. Ijaz, very quickly, just contact me.

01:41:14

You've got my email address now. I sent it to you through your website this morning. Contact me. The best possibility right now would be like I did last time as I was going to South Africa.

01:41:27

I'm planning on going to South Africa again this fall. I stopped in London and did some unbelievable radio broadcasts.

01:41:35

And so if we were able to set something up on the way to South Africa or on the way back,

01:41:42

I would rather do it on the way, personally. Just so there's something left to me. A lot of flying.

01:41:48

But let's get in touch and let's see if we can work something out at the East London Mosque. That'd be perfect.

01:41:54

Yeah. And can you do me a favor? I've been looking for your book on the trinity, the forgotten trinity.

01:42:00

Do you have a copy of that I can get? I'd be happy to send. I've sent that book to I don't know how many

01:42:07

Islamic apologists. I'd be very happy to send it to you. I haven't gotten it, though. Come on. I want to read it.

01:42:12

No, that's what I'm saying. I've sent it to many Islamic apologists. I'll send it to you as well. Just give me a mailing address, an email, and we will get it out to you as soon as possible.

01:42:22

Okay. Well, James, thank you for your time. And I hope that we can have a debate on. I thank you for everything today.

01:42:28

Thank you for everything. Have a good day. Thank you. And I hope to meet you soon.

01:42:34

Goodbye. Okay. Thank you. Bye bye. I guess

01:42:41

I'm not going to get to dealing with the Akhmed Didak thing because we've gone 15 minutes over.

01:42:47

Didn't plan that one. Did not plan that one. But, you know, live webcasting, that's one of the, you know, let's admit it.

01:42:54

That's one of the big advantages. If we're on a network or something like that, that could never happen.

01:43:00

No way we could have gone that long. And let alone the fact that I messed up over here. You didn't see it. Well, you're talking to Ijaz, and Sam's calling in.

01:43:11

I suddenly look over as I'm bringing Sam up, and I still have the freeze frame from the video on the screen.

01:43:18

Yeah. It's like, oh, I better get that transition. Oh, yes. That would be good. It keeps you back up live. Yes, yes. Because I'm just sort of sitting there doing nothing right there.

01:43:25

Okay. All right. We will plan, because this would, I think, be one of the best ways of demonstrating that what

01:43:34

Ijaz said about me is untrue. Well, first of all, just go back in the archives. Listen to the programs

01:43:40

I've done on Akhmed Didak. They have been full. They have been fair.

01:43:47

And they have been in depth. And anybody who can't see the difference between me stumbling over very, in a very fast way.

01:43:56

I mean, I had very little time. And I just dare anybody to go NRK in Halagas, Halagas in Prasantheon, Halagas.

01:44:04

Do that three times fast. It's very easy to stumble over that. To compare that with my pointing out the errors, repeated errors of Akhmed Didak.

01:44:14

It's not the same thing. If you can't see that, I don't know how I can reason with you. I don't know how anybody can reason with somebody like that.

01:44:20

I just don't know how you can do it. But we will show the Akhmed Didak clip. And we'll respond to it.

01:44:27

And we'll do it fairly. All right. Well, thanks for listening to the program today.

01:44:34

And like I said, wasn't expecting that. But there you go. Don't know what we'll be doing on Tuesday.

01:44:40

Who knows what's going to happen between now and then. But we'll talk to you then. Thanks for listening. God bless.

01:44:50

Bye.