How to Disagree with Mormons

Nice. It kind of warmed up. I thought it was going to be colder.

So what are you guys representing here?

So we're Christians from a local church. We meet in South Jordan. We come down in hopes of, you know, just having a conversation with our LDS neighbors. Typically, we run into some people who think differently than that, but for the most part, down in Provo, BYU area, we meet a lot of LDS.

Oh, sure.

This is NECA.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, so I'm a pastor and our other pastor is over there. We come together and we want to show people that in this sensitive snowflake world, we can actually have meaningful conversations where I don't need to run away upset.

We can talk about religion. We can talk about that sort of stuff. Absolutely. We all are believers. I appreciate that. That's where we come in, and we would disagree on the identity of Jesus there. If I were to point at this brother David and say, David right there, that's Jesus.

You would go, that's not Jesus. Jesus was God in the flesh who became incarnate and was from Nazareth, born in Bethlehem, and then he died on a cross. Just pointing at that wouldn't make him Jesus. So in a similar way, we see some fundamental differences of what was taught in the LDS church by apostles, prophets, in your doctrine of who Jesus is.

And to be fair, 2 Corinthians 11 says that some will come and preach a different gospel, come with a different spirit, and have a different Jesus. So that's our main concern is we love our LDS neighbors.

I appreciate the faith I see exercised, but is it directed in the right Jesus? I know who my Jesus is. I know my Jesus.

How do you know?

I know it. I know it in my soul just like how anybody knows anybody. I know I know my Jesus. I know he loves me. He's my brother. He's your brother. He's your brother. He's his brother. And his father is our father in heaven.

And I bear strong witness to him. I know my Jesus.

Yeah, you guys are good. I have no trouble. But as many things as you could raise, good LDS people that know their scriptures could raise contrary views, right?

You get that, right?

Right. That's kind of the issue because it's not a matter of like, well, we don't agree with you guys serving water instead of wine in your community services. It's not an incidental thing.

So here, let's go to a fundamental, just for fun.

Okay, yeah.

Not threatening to either party, right?

Sure.

So the typical response from an LDS person would be, what about Jesus when he was baptized, right? He looked up into heaven, the voice from heaven said, this is my beloved son, whom I will please. Jesus was obviously being baptized, and it says in the Holy Ghost he sent his daughter, right?

Picture of the Trinity, I would say.

Let me share one other thing with you.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry, didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no, you're not.

So I taught years ago to a good pastor that was in the Midwest, and I referenced him to think about when the martyr Stephen, when the martyr Stephen, it says he gazed into heaven and he saw Jesus Christ, or he said he saw God and Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of God.

Sitting at the right hand of the Father, yeah.

He said standing on the right hand of God.

Standing on the right hand of God.

And the King James Version says standing on the right hand of God.

Okay.

And I asked this gentleman, what did he see? And this is going to be preposterous to you, but he put his hand on his foot, and he said he must have seen something like this, because in his mind that's the only way he could explain that they were one.

They were as one, not only one in purpose, but they were one in essence,.

Or as one person.

One being.

One being, right. So I respect the fact that everybody has a different view, and I don't, you know, so I wouldn't push a view that much at anybody. There's a lot of credible reasons why good LDS people believe what they believe, and there's been a lot of things said by probably people that you would point out that shouldn't have made comments that they made, just like within your churches.

We can see that on both sides.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I could.

I think the fundamental thing is we all need to come together and value each other as human beings. Recognize God as a creator of this whole earth.

Yeah.

I appreciate all that. With that said, though.

Our time is better spent sharing our love and testifying to Him.

That's what we believe we're doing, to be honest.

Well, you think you're going to save us, but that's all right.

We don't think we're going to save you. We're not the ones that save you.

Yeah.

We have to have an objective standard, though, for you to say what you believe and for us to say what we believe. There has to be an objective, unyielding, transcendent standard that is the ruler, basically the measuring yard of everything.

The one thing, you know, when you need something to be plumb, when you need something to be square, you can't just eyeball it, right? You've got to have something that you can measure it up against in construction.

And so we believe that that's the Word of God, that this is the standard for all of us, the standard of truth. And so when we talk about who is Jesus, who is this Savior, then we come back to this book and go, does my belief comport with what's being demonstrated here?

And so that's where, you know.

And we believe it does. And that's why I shared those two instances with you, that those are pretty strong evidence of what LDS people believe about the Godhead.

Do you believe, though, that God was once a man, as Brigham Young and Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith have said, that God...

God the Father or God the Son? Because we believe they're two separate entities. Jesus is God the Father.

Right.

Well, what Joseph was talking about in the King Follett discourse is God the Father.

Yeah, you're well-read, and I get all that. You know, so tonight, when you go home, I don't know. I don't know the answer to this. But I do know this. When you take, and you take a look at the universe in a whole, and how enormous it is, right, and really objectively take a look at how large it is, what's the probability that there's not other planets that occupy people in the vast world that we live in?

That's where I go to this standard and say that there's this one creation. And what you guys have to reconcile with is that you worship an elevated man, respectfully. You worship a God who was once a man.

A perfect man.

A perfect, perfect life.

A sinless life.

Again, you're taking it to... And again, I don't...

No, I mean I'm talking about in the Father, in this case.

No, no, no.

Not the God-man Jesus Christ.

Not to interrupt you, but...

Yeah.

I don't know why Brigham Young and Joseph Smith taught that concept. Because you don't find it anywhere outside of different speeches that they gave at different times. You just don't find it.

Right? Right.

I can't explain it to you. I can't tell you that it's not true, because I don't know. I don't think any of us know for sure. But I'm just telling you there's a big world out there. There's a big universe.

I understand what you're saying.

People don't have any imagination how vast it is. I don't know how it all came about.

Right?

I do know. God had a hand in it. He created it.

Right?

Of course. Of course.

Yeah, he did. And so, you know...

Anyway, we're going to...

I'm not going to disagree with you on different things people said through time, is it?

Well, I mean...

That's dangerous.

If you go to general conference, is that authoritative? If they're prophets and apostles of God, don't they have some authority in what they're...

If I came to your church and you said something that was off mark one day...

Well, I don't claim to be a mouthpiece of God.

That's a difference.

Of course you do.

Yeah, he's a pastor. He's not a prophet.

No, no.

I exposit the already given revelation of God. I don't give new revelation.

But you're interpreting... And I'm not being argumentative.

No, no, no.

I understand what you're saying.

I interpret it a certain way. You interpret it a certain way. Of course you interpret it. You're projecting what you believe.

It's...

To say otherwise is not true.

That's wildly different, though, than saying...

I have no problem with it.

No, I know. I'm so glad that you're willing to even speak with us.

Yeah.

I think that's more important.

I hear that often, actually.

At the end of our lives, what's going to matter is how well we loved. How deep we loved. How much we loved. That's going to be the only thing you can take with you. Is your love. That's what it comes down to.

That's the key. So, go with the love.

So, you can quote this scripture as well as I can, right?

No, I don't...

Yeah, you can.

You can.

So, I think 1 John... What does 1 John say? In the beginning was the Word.

Oh, you mean John 1.

Oh, John. 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.

And the Word was God.

The Word was with God, and the Word was with God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

Yes.

Yeah.

And all things were made by Him.

By Him.

All things.

Not anything that was made was made apart from Him.

And we believe that was Jesus Christ that they're talking about. That made, created the world. Under the direction of God the Father.

Yeah.

Okay.

And that scripture kind of... When you read it, it's like... And I'm not even saying it from a professed LDS guy that grew up kind of in the...

I live in California.

I don't even live here, right? Oh, okay.

Yeah, right.

Where are you from in California?

I'm not from Happy Valley. These people here live a different world, but...

I'm from Ventura.

I'm out of Laguna del Rio.

In Libre Park.

Sacramento.

Thousand Oaks.

Sacramento.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, all I'm saying is, as much as you want me to be objective and think about what... You know, I've thought about a lot of things for a long time. And I'm a day or two older than you.

You might not believe it, but...

Maybe an entire week.

See, my concern is Jesus says, if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. And that word, I am, comes from the burning bush passage in Exodus chapter 3. It comes from so many passages in Isaiah.

I am He. I am the Lord. The word Yahweh, what you know to be Jehovah. But, if we don't believe that Jesus was God from all eternity. The uncreated creator, like you just said in John 1. He was, not only was He in the beginning.

And in the Greek, that word, in the beginning, means no point of reference in eternity past. He was with God. The Greek is prostanteon. He was face to face with the Father. So, that gives us distinction.

But then, He was God. So, there gives us the oneness. So, distinction and yet oneness.

The third statement you made, He was face to face. How do you get face to face with yourself?

It's a figure of speech in the Greek, yeah. Not literal. So, that's where we see one in being, three in persons. Jesus has been God from all eternity. But, if Jesus was created, if He was the spirit brother of Lucifer.

If that's who He is. And that's not the, I am Jesus, as He says. You've read John. Jesus makes those I am statements several times. The claim to deity. So, in that, Jesus, when it says that all things were created through Him.

That word, all, in the Greek means, He's outside the category of created. He's uncreated. He's made all things. He's in Colossians 1, says the same things. That all things were made through Him, by Him and for Him.

And so, when you look at that, then in LDS doctrine, it said that He is created. He is a created being. He is the spirit brother of Lucifer, not the creator of Lucifer. He made the angels.

Jesus made the angels.

And that would be a fundamentally different Jesus. Not an elevated man, who then became divine and then became incarnate in the virgin birth. But God from all eternity, who came into His own creation.

And Philippians chapter 2 says, that He did not regard equality with God a thing to be held on to. But emptied Himself and took on the form of a man. And so, He's always been from eternity. Jesus, the Father and the Spirit.

You know what I mean?

I hear what you're saying. All I say is, you have a strong belief and I'm okay with that.

Yeah.

One day we'll all know. And if you're right, I'm going to come up to you and say, you know, I appreciate that moment and probably stop. I said, let's get closer.

Well, let's hope that happens sooner rather than...

Well, no, come on. Let's validate the fact that I know Jesus Christ to be my Savior. As much as you know to be your Savior. That's a fact. That's a fact. And you cannot take that from me. And I will not let you take that from me.

Because it's just not... It's fundamentally flawed to encourage that type of thing.

What is the gospel to you? What is the gospel? What's the good news?

It's the good news of Christ. He was born. Died for our sins. Was resurrected on the third day.

You know what?

You're the first LDS person in a long time to have said that. Because I just asked someone earlier and they said, the good news is happiness. Another person said, the good news is working the best we can until we get to the next life.

You're the first person who actually said, it's Jesus living perfectly, dying and rising again.

He didn't pay attention to Sunday school.

I couldn't imagine.

They typically get a lot of kids.

Oh yeah.

A lot of kids.

Oh yeah.

That's true. We've met some that are just sort of...

Cut them some slack.

We need to roll, but I'm telling you. I respect the fact that you guys feel strongly about what you're doing.

Testify of Christ.

We appreciate your time. This phone number goes directly to me. If you ever want to get lunch or anything.

I regard that you guys have the capacity and the desire to go out and share what you really believe. I'm much different than what I did and what I continue to do.

Thank you for your time.

I'm not going to take your car because I'll buy you lunch anytime. And it's not that I'm closed off. I'm not a closed off person. I've thought about these things for 66 years. I didn't fall out of the tree yesterday.

You know what I mean?

If you were wrong, would you want to know? If you had cancer, would you want a diagnosis?

If I didn't have...

I know there's a lot to lose. This is an amazing culture and family.

Forget about all that.

If I didn't have a few of my life experiences that I've had, I could be maybe persuaded.

Right.

But I feel like I, like Paul, when he was waiting for a grip. I saw a light. And I know it.

Right?

Remember that testimony he gave before a grip?

On the road to Damascus?

Yeah, he explained his experience.

Yeah.

He saw Jesus. Why persecute us, thou me? He fundamentally knew. Some of us fundamentally don't.

Right?

And I would just ask you to consider that's a possibility.

I pray to God that you become saved.

Oh, no.

We testify of Christ. This is our first date.

Really?

Yeah.

That's how you have a first date. We testify of Christ.

It's all good.

Wow.

You going to get some ice cream or something?

Oh, we ate everything. We ate everything.

Oh, man.

And it's not, we're not quite to ice cream temperatures yet. Next week.

You know, hot cocoa now.

All right.

What's your name again?

Wade.

Wade.

What's your last name?

Orsini.

Orsini?

Yeah.

And you're from Ventura, you say?

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thousand Oaks specifically.

Sacramento.

Sacramento.

What part?

Rosemont.

What's your name?

Rosemont.

Lisa.

From Las Vegas. Which was also settled by LDS.

That's true. That's true. They kind of branched off at a, they kind of splintered for a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sweet.

Awesome.

Well, have a good evening.

It was good talking to you guys.

All right.

Take care.

I will.

You too.

Have a nice night.

Thank you.