How to Disagree with Mormons

Apologia Utah

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Nice. It kind of warmed up, I thought it was going to be colder. So what are you guys representing here? So we're

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Christians from a local church. We meet in South Jordan. We come down in hopes of, you know, just having a conversation with our

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LDS neighbors. Typically, we run into some people who think differently than that, but for the most part, down in Provo, BYU area, we meet a lot of LDS.

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Oh, sure. This is NECA. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, so I'm a pastor and our other pastor's over there.

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We just, we come together and we want to have, we want to show people that in this sensitive snowflake world, we can actually have meaningful conversations where I don't need to run away upset.

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We can talk about religion. We can talk about that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I appreciate that.

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We, we would, we would, that's where we come in. And we would disagree on like the identity of Jesus there.

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Like if I were to point at this brother David and say, David right there, that's, that's

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Jesus. You would go, that's not Jesus. Jesus was someone, was, was

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God in the flesh who became incarnate and was from Nazareth, born in Bethlehem.

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And then he died on a cross and just pointing at that wouldn't make him Jesus. And so in a similar way, we see some fundamental differences of what was taught in the

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LDS church by apostles, prophets, in your doctrine of who Jesus is. And, and to be fair, 2

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Corinthians 11 says that some will come and preach a different gospel, come with a different spirit, and have a different Jesus.

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So that's our main concern is we love our LDS neighbors.

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I appreciate the faith. I see exercise, but is it directed in the right

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Jesus? So, yeah. Yeah. How do you, how do you know?

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They don't like, they're strong with this type of movement.

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Yeah, you guys are, I mean, you guys are doing great. I have no trouble. But, I mean, as many things as you could raise, good

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LDS people that know their scriptures could raise contrary views, right? You get that, right?

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Right. Like, there would, that's, that's kind of the issue because, like if, it's not a matter of like, well, we don't agree with you guys serving water instead of wine in your community services.

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Like, it's not an incident. So here, let's go to a fundamental, just for fun. Okay, yeah. Not, not threatening to either party, right?

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Sure. So the typical response from an LDS person would be, what about Jesus when he was baptized, right?

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He looked up into heaven, the voice from heaven said, this is my beloved son, whom I will please.

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Jesus was obviously being baptized. And it says in the Holy Ghost he sent him as a dog.

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And a lot of people... Picture of the Trinity, I would say, yeah. Let me share one other thing with you. Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. Didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no, you're not, you're not.

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So I taught years ago to a good pastor that was in the

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Midwest. And I referenced him to think about when the martyr

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Stephen, when the martyr Stephen, it says he gazed into heaven, and he saw

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Jesus Christ, or he said he saw God, and Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of God.

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Sitting at the right hand of the Father, yeah. He said standing on the right hand of God. Standing on the right hand of God. And the

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King James Version says standing on the right hand of God. Okay. And I asked this gentleman, what did he see?

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And this is going to be preposterous to you, but he put his hand on his foot, and he said he must have seen something like this.

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Because in his mind, that's the only way he could explain that they were one. They were as one, not only one in purpose, but they were one in essence or as one person.

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One being. One being, right. So I respect the fact that everybody has a different view, and I don't, you know, so I wouldn't push a view that much at anybody.

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There's a lot of credible reasons why good LDS people believe what they believe. And there's been a lot of things said that by probably people that you would point out that shouldn't have made comments

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Sure. We can see that on both sides. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I could.

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So. Yeah. I appreciate all that.

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With that said, though, that's what we believe we're doing, to be honest.

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You think you're going to save us, but that's all right. Oh, we don't think we're going to save you. We're not the ones that save them.

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Yeah. We have to have an objective standard, though, for you to say what you believe and for us to say what we believe.

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There has to be an objective, unyielding, transcendent standard that is the ruler, basically the measuring yard of everything.

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The one thing, you know, when you need something to be plumb, when you need something to be square, you've got, you can't just eyeball it, right?

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You've got to have something that you can measure it up against in construction. And so we believe that that's the word of God, that this is the standard for all of us, the standard of truth.

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And so when we talk about who is Jesus, who is the Savior, then we come back to this book and go, does my belief comport with what's being demonstrated here?

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And so that's where, you know. And we believe it does. And that's why I shared those two instances.

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Do you believe, though, that God was once a man, as Brigham Young and Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Smith have said, that God...

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God the Father or God the Son? Jesus is

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God the Father. Right. Yeah. Well, what Joseph was talking about in the King Follett discourse is God the

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Father. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're Willow Red. You know, so tonight, when you go home,

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I don't know. I don't know the answer to this. But I do know this. When you take, and you take a look at the universe in a whole and how enormous it is, right, and really objectively take a look at how large it is, what's the probability that there's not other planets that occupy people in the vast world that we live in?

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That's where I go to this standard and say that there's this one creation. And what you guys have to reconcile with is that you worship an elevated man, respectfully.

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You worship a God who was once a man, a perfect man. Again, you're taking it to, and again,

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I don't. No, I mean I'm talking about in the Father in this case. Not the God, man, Jesus Christ.

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Not to interrupt you, but Joseph Smith taught that concept.

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Because you don't find it anywhere outside of different speeches that they gave at different times.

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You just don't find it, right? I can't explain it to you. I can't tell you that it's not true, because I don't know.

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I don't think any of us know for sure. But I'm just telling you there's a big world out there.

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There's a big universe. I understand what you're saying. People don't have any imagination how vast it is.

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I don't know how it all came about, right? I do know God had a hand in it. He created it.

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Of course, of course. He did. I'm not going to disagree with you on different things people said through time.

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That's dangerous. If you go to general conferences, is that authoritative? If they're prophets and apostles of God, don't they have some authority?

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If I came to your church and you said something that was off mark one day? Well, I don't claim to be a mouthpiece of God.

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That's a difference. Of course you do. Yeah, he's a pastor. He's not a prophet. No, no, I exposit the already given revelation of God.

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I don't give new revelation. And I'm not being argumentative.

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No, no, no, I understand what you're saying, yeah. I interpret it a certain way. You interpret it a certain way.

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Of course you interpret it. You're projecting what you believe. To say otherwise is not true.

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That's wildly different, though, than saying. I have no problem with it.

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No, I know. I'm so glad that you're willing to even speak with us, yeah. I hear that often, actually, yeah.

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So, you can quote this scripture as well as I can, right? No, I don't. Yeah, you can. So, I think 1

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John, what does 1 John say? In the beginning was the Word.

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Oh, you mean John 1? Oh, John 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God. The Word was with God, and the

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Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God. Yes. And all things were made by Him.

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By Him. All things. Not anything that was made was made apart from Him. And we believe that was

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Jesus Christ that they're talking about. That made, created the world. Under the direction of God the

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Father. Yeah. And that scripture kind of, when you read it, it's like, hmm. And I'm not even saying it from a professed

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LDS guy that grew up kind of in the... I live in California. I don't even live here, right? Oh, okay.

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Yeah, right. Where are you from in California? I'm not from Happy Valley. These people here live in a different world. I'm from Ventura.

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I'm out of Laguna Del Rio. In Libre Park. Sacramento. Thousand Oaks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, all I'm saying is, as much as you want me to be objective and think about what, you know,

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I've thought about a lot of things for a long time, and I'm a day or two older than you. You might not believe it.

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Maybe an entire week. See, my concern is Jesus says, if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

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And that word, I am, comes from the burning bush passage in Exodus chapter 3. It comes from so many passages in Isaiah.

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I am he. I am the Lord. The word Yahweh, what you know to be Jehovah. If we don't believe that Jesus was

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God from all eternity, the uncreated creator, like you just said in John 1, he was, not only was he in the beginning, and in the

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Greek, that word, in the beginning, means no point of reference in eternity past.

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He was with God. The Greek is prostanteo, and he was face to face with the

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Father. So that gives us distinction, but then he was God. So there gives us the oneness.

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So distinction, and yet oneness. The very statement you made, he was face to face. How do you get face to face with yourself?

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It's a figure of speech in the Greek, yeah. Not literal. So that's where we see one in being, three in persons.

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Jesus has been God from all eternity. But if Jesus was created, if he was the spirit brother of Lucifer, if that's who he is, then that's not the

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I am Jesus, as he says. You know, you've read John. Jesus makes those I am statements several times, the claim to deity.

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And in the New Testament. That phrase is expressed several times.

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So in that, Jesus, when it says that all things were created through him, that word all in the

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Greek means he's outside the category of created. He's uncreated. He's made all things, and Colossians 1 says the same thing, that all things were made through him, by him, and for him.

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And so when you look at that, then, in LDS doctrine, it said that he is created.

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He is a created being. He is the spirit brother of Lucifer, not the creator of Lucifer.

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He made the angels. Jesus made the angels. And that would be a fundamentally different Jesus.

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Not an elevated man who then became divine and then became incarnate in the virgin birth.

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But God from all eternity, who came into his own creation in Philippians chapter 2 says that he did not regard equality with God a thing to be held on to, but emptied himself and took on the form of a man.

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And so he's always been from eternity. Jesus, the father and the spirit.

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You know what I mean? I hear what you're saying. All I say is, you have a strong belief, and I'm okay with that.

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One day we'll all know. And if you're right, I'm going to come up to you and say, you know, I appreciate that moment and probably stop.

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I said, let's get closer. Well, let's hope that happens sooner rather than later. Well, no, come on.

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Let's validate the fact that I know

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Jesus Christ to be my Savior. As much as you know him to be your Savior. That's a fact.

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That's a fact. And you cannot take that from me. And I will not let you take that from me.

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Because it's fundamentally flawed to encourage that type of thing.

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What is the gospel to you? What is the gospel? What's the good news? It's the good news of Christ.

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He was born, died for our sins, was resurrected on the third day. You know what?

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You're the first LDS person in a long time to have said that because I just asked someone earlier, and they said,

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The good news is happiness. Another person said, The good news is working the best we can until we get to the next life.

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You're the first person who actually said, It's Jesus living perfectly, dying, and rising again.

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They didn't all pay attention to Sunday school. I couldn't imagine. I met an

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RIT student last night because they typically have a lot of kids.

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Oh, yeah. That's true. We've met some that are just sort of. Cut them some slack.

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You need to roll, but I'm telling you, I respect the fact that you guys feel strongly about what you're doing. Testify of Christ.

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We appreciate your time. I don't mean to cut you off. No, that's okay. This phone number goes directly to me if you ever want to get lunch or anything.

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I have a high regard for that you guys have the capacity and the desire to go out and share what you really believe.

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I'm much different than what I did and what I continue to do. Thank you for your time.

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I'm not going to take your car because I'll buy you lunch anytime. It's not that I'm closed off.

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I'm not a closed off person. I've thought about these things for 66 years. I didn't fall out of the tree yesterday.

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You know what I mean? If you were wrong, would you want to know?

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If you had cancer, would you want a diagnosis? If I didn't have…

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I know there's a lot to lose. This is an amazing culture and family. Forget about all that. If I didn't have a few of my life experiences that I've had,

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I could be maybe persuaded. But I feel like I'm like Paul when he's doing for Agrippa.

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I saw like… Remember that testimony you gave before Agrippa?

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On the road to Damascus? Yeah, you explained his experience? Yeah. He saw Jesus. Why persecute a zombie?

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He fundamentally knew. Some of us fundamentally don't. I would just ask you to consider that's a possibility.

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I pray to God that you become saved. We testify of Christ.

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This is our first date. Really? Yeah. That's how you have a first date. We testify of Christ.

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It's all good. Wow. You going to get some ice cream or something? We ate everything.

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We ate everything. Oh, man. And it's not… We're not quite to ice cream temperatures yet.

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Yeah. Next week. Eat a hot cocoa now. Yeah. All right. What's your name again?

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Wade. Wade. What's your last name? Orsini. Orsini? Yeah. And you're from Ventura you say?

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Yeah. Thousand Oaks specifically. Sacramento. Sacramento. What part? Rosemount.

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Rosemount. Yeah. That's my answer. I'm from Las Vegas. Which was also settled by LDS.

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That's true. That's true. They kind of branched off at a… They kind of splintered for a little bit.

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Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. Awesome. Well, have a good evening. It was good talking to you guys. All right. Take care.