First Road Trip DL in NEW Mobile Command Unit!

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line, and here we are. Lots of things could happen.

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For example, my light here. You gotta understand, it was on its last legs when it was in the other unit.

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And then it got rather violently moved from one unit to the other. So, it's a death door.

00:57

It could... I mean, the tape just ain't holding. It was a cheapie.

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I never expected to get this much life out of it, so I can't complain. But here we are, and this obviously is not where we are going to be in the long run.

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But we are in the new unit. And that does not mean that the fundraiser is done by a stretch of the imagination.

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We still have lots of funds to raise, and we're going to have the Derek Melton knife to make available, and a

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Jeffrey Rice rebind to make available. A brother from Utah has contacted us, and he does this woodworking with a resurrection scene, empty tomb scene, similar to what

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I've got in the background at the office. I don't know if you could make one small enough for this corner. But I'm hopefully not going to be in this corner for very long.

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But I am in the new unit. I'm in a completely different location than I was before.

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I was always at the very back. Excuse me, the door was at the very back. The door's over there.

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I'm facing the back of the unit now. I'm out in the slide -out. I'm about not quite halfway.

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I guess right around halfway, maybe. Up from the rear and from the back and so on and so forth,

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I just were doing a test. I mean, this is what

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I'm going to be taking up to Utah for the debate. And as soon as we arranged to get this unit, this was the unit.

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Rich actually complimented me. I'm not sure that he realized he was complimenting me. But he said, this is the exact right floor plan.

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You got it right off the bat. And we did. And in fact, this was the first floor plan that I looked at.

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I had an idea in my mind, and this was the first one. And I looked at a bunch of other makes.

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And nobody had anything that had the monks back there that I'm looking at right now that was this short.

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It is four and a half feet longer than the last unit. I just went through my first gas station and did not destroy it.

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I won't tell you any more of the stories about that. But anyway, here we are. I'm up in northern Arizona. This is completely a test run.

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There's stuff you got to do. You got to hook up water. You got to hook up electricity. You got to put the slides out.

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You got to see how stuff's going to work. Does the shower work? Does the water heater work? If I'm going up to Salt Lake City, where I got snowed on last year,

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I need to make sure I've got hot water and a few things like that, or I'm going to show up in a really bad mood at the debate.

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Let's just put it that way. So that's where we are. And we are coming to you live.

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And we're already using, for example, the Internet we've installed in here. That's one of the main ways we'll be doing things.

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And so I would like to have the windows open.

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But the problem is the sun would be shining on the back of my follically challenged head and would be causing me to glow like certain

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Roman Catholic saints in pictures do. And we don't want any of that at all. So there we go.

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So first of all, just unbelievable. Thanks to everyone who has already given toward this project.

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As I think of all the things coming up this year that Lord willing, this unit will take me to G3 and debates and things like that.

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It's truly exciting. And then. We don't yet we haven't even put tape measures to the bedroom yet, but we've got to get guys together and you can only put about two guys in there anyways.

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But we got guys together and brainstorm and figure out exactly how to.

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Convert a bedroom into a webcast studio and and make it work, make it so that I can have one other person in there to interview, as I've done in the past, at least.

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And yet to, you know, I would love to have my other screen set up right now.

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I can see it from here, but this is a different setup. A little bit challenging.

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And so I'm going to have that screen and we're going to be able to video and stuff like that.

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That's that's all in the works. I don't know that we'll get it done for the

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May trip, but certainly by the July trip. I think we'll we should have it all taken care of by that point.

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So sincere thanks. We still need folks to help us keep going down this road, getting everything taken care of.

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And so. I'm beside myself with excitement and being here and having survived the trip.

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But it's called Five Mile Hill on I -17 in Phoenix, outside of Phoenix.

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If you're familiar with this area at all, it's a great test for any combination of a truck and an

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RV. It's steep. It's long enough to make anything that's going to go wrong go wrong.

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And everything was great, fine, wonderful. And so we're excited. That doesn't mean there are adjustments to be made.

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And I'm just looking around going, I'm not sure where lots of stuff is. Yes, I tried.

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Rich will tell you, I tried. You know, I want to try to, you know, move stuff over and put it in pretty much the same space and all the rest of that stuff.

06:55

That lasted. That lasted about five minutes. What was that? What was that?

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Oh, you know, I that's highly offensive. I just want everybody to know in the audience that Rich is using very highly offensive language toward me right now.

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And it's very unkind. And all of you who are constantly saying you need to be nicer to Rich, you need to say to Rich, you need to be nicer to James.

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OK, because that's he it's it's anyway.

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So I had mentioned on Twitter. That I would

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I was I want to invite people to listen to the dialogue, the discussion that took place.

07:44

On Tuesday, I think it was Tuesday. Yes, it was Tuesday on Apologia Radio, myself and Jeff Durbin with Brandon Robertson.

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And. I can certainly understand why there might be many people in the audience that don't know who

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Brandon Robertson is. You probably have seen him because clips of some of his

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TikTok videos have gone viral. When he, for example, said that Jesus was a racist.

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And, you know, he he himself is a homosexual. He was one of the.

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People that was on a panel. At the

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Religious Broadcasters Association meeting back in like 2015 or 2016, somewhere around in that area.

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And Michael Brown was on that panel. They had a lot of back and forth discussion. But as I've mentioned on the program a number of times before, there was something.

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I don't remember what it was. I haven't gone back to find it yet. Probably could be could find it.

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But I haven't gone back there to do it yet. There was I was listening to Brandon Roberts, and it wasn't.

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This was before the National Religious NRB panel thing.

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There was something he said. My recollection is it had something to do.

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With the authority of scripture. Now, my understanding is that he actually went to Moody Bible Institute.

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And you don't get into Moody with the views that Brandon Robertson has now of the

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Bible. I can assure you of that. And so there was something he said back then.

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And I was I was riding my bike and I was listening. And I maybe even said it out loud.

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Not that I wouldn't hear you as you're riding by. I said, he's not going to remain

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Orthodox. He's on his way. There's there's a trajectory here and it's just going to get worse and worse and worse.

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And of course, that's exactly what has happened. And a lot of people, again, are stunned when they hear him saying the things that he says.

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And I'm not stunned because and we need to stop being stunned.

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Not not that we should. Oh, that's just fine or something like that. What I mean is.

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We need to understand where these people are coming from and why they take the views that they take.

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And I think the most useful thing in the conversation that took place. And if you saw the.

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If you saw the teaser that was put out yesterday afternoon or something like that. You didn't know that I was there.

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It was it was all Jeff talking to Brandon. There was one little clip you could see me, but but I I wasn't in there.

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And. Jeff did the majority of the talking. There's no there's no question about that.

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Part of the reason for that was. Brandon had written to Jeff and to Apologia saying, let's talk about what you said about what

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Jeff had said, I don't know, two, three weeks ago on the program. And besides that,

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I want to make sure that the conversation ended up taking place. Got to give Brandon props for for doing it.

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He was very nervous. You could tell he was very, very nervous. It was sort of strange how much he was moving around and I'm not sure how many bottles of water he managed to drink during that entire thing.

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But. Still, I think the most useful thing that came out of it.

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Was a recognition of what it requires. Of an individual to eventually adopt the positions that Brandon Robertson has adopted.

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Coming from somewhere like the Bible Institute. And. If you've listened and if you if you haven't.

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Hopefully this will still be useful to you, but you can go listen to it being fulfilled in your ears.

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At one point, I was a little bit surprised, very interested. That, well, what had happened was.

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Somehow a discussion to come up about the word of God. And prophecy prophecies of the coming of Christ.

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All of it revolved around around what what is the nature of this?

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What what is this? And. I had gone to Luke chapter 24.

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Because what Brandon does and what this and I don't grant to them the term progressive.

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They're not progressives. They're regressives. They're moving away from.

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A high view of Scripture to a very low view of Scripture. Even a rejection of the fact of the idea there is such a thing as Scripture.

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You could you could hear that in what Brandon was saying. But I had gone to Luke chapter 24.

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And somewhere along in there, he had he had referred to his mentor. John Dominic crossing now.

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I had not heard that before. I was unaware of any connection between crossing and Robertson.

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Dom is a really nice guy, but he as I've said, he's as I said to him, you're our favorite heretic.

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Which he laughed at least that time. But if you if you're not familiar with John Dominic crossing, he was one of the co -founders of the

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Jesus Seminar. And the Jesus Seminar is this wildly radical left wing group.

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Now, he will deny that, of course. Oh, no, they're mainstreaming. No, they're wildly radical.

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They're the guys who the 1990s, late 80s, actually.

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And in fact, I forgot to do it. I was going to ask the guys in our in our channel to look up.

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Because I think it's on sermon audio. I think it's there. I could be wrong.

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Maybe it's not. But. There was a secular radio talk show program, a guy named

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Barry Young was on a radio station called

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KFYI. I was on KFYI many times with Tom Likas, Barry Young.

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What was that other guy? Yeah, Bob Mohan.

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Yeah. And I forget what year it was.

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I think it was. I think it was before I graduated from Fuller.

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And I graduated from Fuller in 89. So it may have been 87, 88, somewhere around in there.

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A long time ago. And a group of us,

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I think there were three of us, were in studio. And Robert Funk, who co -founded the

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Jesus Seminar with John Dominick Crossan, was on. And that was the time when

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Robert Funk got sick and tired of being challenged primarily by me.

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Because the other folks in the group weren't going to Fuller Seminary.

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So you weren't already dealing with this stuff. And during one of the commercial breaks.

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And I was a radio guy, grew up doing radio. I was watching Barry Young and I could tell someone was talking to him in his headphones.

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And he said, he did what? Call him back. And what had happened was, during the break,

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Robert Funk had said to the call screener producer guy. Who had gone on the line to let him know that we were in a commercial break.

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He said, look, I'm sick and tired of this. Tell them all to go to hell. And he hung up. And so I knew

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Barry Young and I knew what he was going to do. So he has the producer call him back. Live on the air.

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And he answers. And Barry Young said, Dr. Funk, we lost line.

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No, you didn't. I hung up on you. Well, why would you? Hey, did you tell us all to go to hell? Yes, it's a good place to go, he said.

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It was interesting. I tried after Funk then did hang up again. To do something positive with the program and try to make, you know, because it's a secular station.

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And try to make some kind of comment. And that's not what Barry Young wanted. He had gotten what he had wanted.

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He wanted the fist fight. And he got the fist fight. So, anyway. The Jizz Seminar guys are radical skeptics.

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And what they did back then is they came out with a scholar's version. Very, very humbly named, of course. The scholar's version of the

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Gospels. Where they get together as a group and they have discussions and people present papers about various parables and pericopes in Jesus' life and stuff like that.

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And then they would vote with different colored marbles as to whether they thought

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Jesus had ever said whatever it was they were voting on. The parable of the sower.

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The soils. The parable of, you know, the Good Samaritan. Whatever. And they would take marbles.

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So, red if he said it. Or was it if he didn't say it. I forget. It was like red, pink, gray, and black.

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I think is how it worked out. And so they would vote. And then they published this edition and they would print the words of Jesus in these various colors reflecting this radical, left -wing, anti -Christian group of people.

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Now, Don Crossan was a monk. A Roman Catholic monk. He spent the entire 60s in a cell.

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Okay. That recording in our Sermon Audio channel is titled,

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Is the Bible for Real? Not sure where we came up with that one. So, if you go to Sermon Audio, go to Alpha and Omega Ministries and search for,

19:20

Is the Bible for Real? You can listen to what? Oh.

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Oh. I had forgotten that. You know, if I wanted to be, if I wanted to out

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Ergon Canner, I'd count all these as debates. I'd have like 500.

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Okay. So, what Rich said, I'm not sure if you heard what Rich said, but I heard what Rich said. He seems to think you can't hear what he's saying.

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So, anyway. I did, I think, was it the Dr. Dietz thing on KTAR with Pat McBain?

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That's my recollection. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was short.

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Right. Yeah. It was short. 90 -minute tape. Yeah. Young people don't understand 90 -minute tape.

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45 minutes aside, switch it over. Never mind. There were dinosaurs roaming the world back then.

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Anyway. So, Is the Bible for Real? Look it up on Sermon Audio. You can hear that whole thing.

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John Dominic Crossan spent the 60s studying the Gospels in a cell as a monk.

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An Irish Catholic monk. And he didn't even know people like us existed.

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Okay. His skepticism is so radical that when we talked with him, we took him on a cruise.

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We did a debate. No, we can't hear

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Rich. He made sure he's kept us out of the loop. I can see that on my wrist.

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I want everyone to know. Thank you, Chris. Go watch Elf. Anyway. We took him on a cruise.

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So, you can go watch the debate that Jim Renahan and I did with he and Marcus Borg on the

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Resurrection. And again, we were like aliens to John Dominic Crossan.

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He had never experienced anything like us. And thought it very strange that we had such conservative views.

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Didn't think people like us existed who could read his works and interact with his works.

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And had an obvious IQ. That's just what he grew up with.

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The result was, he eventually left the priesthood. And the result of all that was, when we talked to him.

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And this was, what year was that? Late 2008, 2009? Somewhere around there.

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Anyway, maybe before that. He did not know if there is a personal

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God. Or if there is anything, if there is an afterlife. He was basically an agnostic.

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And that's the result of this kind of radical skepticism. All of that to bring you up to speed.

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Because man, that was a long time ago. It was many, many years ago. To bring you up to speed. For Brandon Robertson to say, he's my mentor.

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This will now explain why, when I went to Luke chapter 24 in the dialogue a couple days ago.

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When I went to Luke chapter 24, it clicked with me.

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You'll hear me say, before I read it. You'll hear me say, now, given what you just said.

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I doubt you even think Jesus said these words. But then, I walked through the statement.

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Jesus, starting with Moses, all the prophets, the Psalms. Demonstrated that they were speaking about him.

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Because he had denied that. He had denied predictive prophecy. And I said that.

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And he made the statement. He said, yeah, the Jesus Seminar scholars have demonstrated that most of what we have in the

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Gospels, Jesus didn't say. So, Brandon's view of scripture was very clearly exposed.

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And it's necessary to go there. This is what I saw coming.

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Long before he would admit that it was actually happening in his own thinking, in his own thought.

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So, Jeff had played a clip in the previous Apology Radio that they had done.

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There is about him, but he wasn't on. Talking about how many sex workers he knows in New York.

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What wonderful, godly Christian people they are. And how porn is a good thing.

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And it's a beautiful thing. And when most Christians who want to follow

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Jesus and read their Bible, hear something like that, they're just completely lost. Because anyone who's read the

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Bible knows, what? How can you say something like that? It takes a radical disintegration of scripture to come to those conclusions.

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And that's what you have with the Jesus Seminar. Robert Funk hated the Gospel. He hated Christianity.

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He hated the historical Jesus. And so, everything he was trying to do was to bring about that disintegration of the

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Christian faith. And the scriptures as a whole. So, what you hear when you listen to us seeking to reason with Brandon from the scriptures, is an individual who is not under the authority of scripture because he doesn't believe there is such a thing.

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There is no consistent revelation. Anything that doesn't fit, you just simply dismiss its authority.

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You say Jesus never said that. For example, Luke 24. I'm not sure why he doesn't just do the, there was no

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Moses, because I'm sure he does not believe there was a Moses. And I know what you're thinking.

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I know what you're thinking. And God bless you for thinking it. There are a bunch of you in the audience right now that went, but Jesus said.

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But remember, once you're at the Jesus Seminar level of things,

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Jesus didn't say anything. There is nothing in the text of the

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Bible that you have to affirm actually represents anything that Jesus ever said.

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At the very least, you can say, well, Matthew, he had his purposes. Mark had his purposes. And it wasn't

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Matthew, Mark, and Luke. We don't even know who these people were. This was the next century. This all gets into, remember the last program, we were talking about Trent Horn.

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And it's just out of reach. The book that is promoting the idea that Theodostus, when

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Paul, well, it wasn't Paul. Whoever in the second century used Theodostus in writing to someone who wasn't

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Timothy. That the term could only mean life -giving, not

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God -breathed. Once you get to that point where, well, it wasn't

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Paul. It wasn't the first century. This is actually someone writing the pseudonym.

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And so it's sort of like a forgery. Why are we even wasting our time here is what

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I want to know. But that's where a large, large, large portion.

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And when people say the Enlightenment messed everything up. There's many ways in which that's true.

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You have to be really careful because you can just throw everything out saying that. But the

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Enlightenment is what allowed people to take the scriptures apart.

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To disintegrate them. Now this is an argument. And I'll put it right up front here.

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I'm not going to expand upon it right now. The traditional text people use this kind of argument.

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And the difference is they're focusing upon trying to get rid of how we know the words.

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And say, well, it's found in this text that it's in the TR King James, whatever. Dealing with, you know, historical manuscripts.

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And it's a transmission of the text of time. And looking at early church fathers and stuff like that. That's different than the starting presupposition of a

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Robert Funk. The starting presupposition of Robert Funk is purely secular.

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In fact, I would say with him, atheistic. The starting presupposition is this cannot from the start be the word of God.

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And I lost track of how many times Brandon Robertson says it's not the word of God. Jesus is the word of God.

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And so once you start there, the only thing you can possibly have left.

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And we went ten minutes over in the discussion. It was supposed to be one hour. We went 70 minutes. And so I didn't get a chance to really expand upon this.

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But I did ask Brandon at one point. I said, given your view of scripture, when you stand behind a pulpit.

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What can you say to people with any kind of. And as soon as I said the word authority. He said, well,

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I don't. We want to have discussion. We want people to be able to disagree.

30:07

And I knew that's exactly what he was going to say. The perspective that they have of church is not.

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It can only live up to the level of what they invest in whatever passages of scripture.

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They decide speak to them. And if someone says, I don't think that passage speaks to me.

30:39

Then it's not really scripture. And it's not really wrong. That's what we're dealing with here.

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And so it really does. It really, really does illustrate with great clarity.

31:03

That even when we tried to. You may have seen. Again, if you watch it.

31:09

If you've already watched it. Or if you haven't. Go watch it. So this makes all sense. When we got into Leviticus.

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We were pressing the reality. That. What you have in Leviticus 18 and 20.

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Most Christians struggle mightily to deal with this kind of radical leftist ideology.

31:41

Because we are canonically challenged. We don't.

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Almost none of us. Spend the amount of time. In a

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Leviticus or a Deuteronomy. That we do in a John or a

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Romans. And in some senses, there's some.

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Areas where that's okay. As long as you recognize. That the ones who wrote

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John and Romans spent. A tremendous amount of time. In Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

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Most evangelicals don't have a whole lot of. Knowledge. Of the holiness code or the mosaic.

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Code and a lot of people are tight. It's irrelevant to us today. So why should I waste my time with it? And so when we do go to it.

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As we have to. Get a little more comfy here in the corner. When we do go to it.

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As we have to go to it. Because it's the foundation of. It's clearly in Paul's mind in Romans one.

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It's clearly there in first Corinthians six. It's clearly there in first Timothy one. And again,

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I point out. Once you go the modernistic perspective. Romans one.

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And first Corinthians are Paul. But first Timothy isn't. And so everything that causes.

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The scriptures to cohere. And to allow us to have a doctrine of the

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Trinity. To have a doctrine of the resurrection. To have soteriology. To have ecclesiology.

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All of that. All of that. Disappears. Once the internal cohesion of the text of scripture.

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Is broken apart. And you start with the idea that. Yeah, I don't think Jesus ever said that.

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Yeah, I don't think Paul ever wrote that. And. You know, you may follow this scholar or that scholar.

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There's a billion people out there. That want you to spend the money on their books that will tell you.

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Which texts to spin in a particular direction. It's a lot harder.

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To believe in solo scriptura and tota scriptura. And to exegete the text of scripture in light of that. It's easy.

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To be a progressivist. It's easy. Because you just, you just get to.

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Sort of chop stuff up the way you like it. You don't have to worry about.

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That and that and that and that. I don't like those. They don't speak to me.

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And since they don't speak to me, then I don't have to worry about it. You see. It's much harder. There is one point where.

34:48

I probably shouldn't have, but he was just being so condescending. You know, he's talking about how much time he spent studying

34:55

Canaanite religion. Well, again. Go back. To the holiness code.

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Sermon series. I did PRVC years ago. And as difficult as it was.

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Because these are supposed to be sermons. I did a whole section on Canaanite religion.

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And Babylonian religion and Egyptian religion. And we've learned a lot.

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Over the past century. About those things. No question about it. Is that relevant?

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Of course it is. Of course it is. When I went to Israel in 2018. 2017, 2018, whatever it was.

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Yeah, 2018. When I went to Israel, we saw one of the. High places.

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One of the very ancient. Ruins of the high places that you read about all the time.

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And the people of God were constantly. Tempted to go here and the kind of.

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Sexuality and sacrifices and prostitution. And everything else.

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And Moloch worship. The giving of children to, to bring about the fertility of the land.

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And of course, Egyptian religion had. All sorts of. It's man rebelling against the created order.

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And so that conversation came up. And. At some point he made some comment about.

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How he spent 10 years and spent $100 ,000. Studying these things and therefore we just need to accept what he has to say.

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I don't know how old Brandon is. I think he's around 30, 31, maybe. Somewhere around there.

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But I couldn't, I couldn't resist. I said, son, I was studying this stuff when you were still in diapers.

37:02

And. As I think about it. That first encounter with.

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Robert Funk. Was probably before he was born. I would imagine.

37:15

I'd have to, again, that's, that was one of the reasons I was going to look it up. See what the date on it. Was in fact rich.

37:21

Is there a date on that anywhere? I'd be interested if we have a date. On the Robert Funk encounter.

37:27

And maybe you could look up. Brandon Robertson on Wikipedia. See if there's a. Oh. Thank you.

37:43

Brandon Roberts is born 1992. So he's younger than my youngest.

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So he is just now. Well, he's not 31 yet. So there you go.

37:56

And rich guest 87. On the Funk one. So yeah. So five years before he was born.

38:02

I was dealing with the Jesus seminar people. Reading their books and all the rest of that.

38:09

Fun stuff. So. It got a little warm at that point. In the conversation.

38:18

But the thing that I felt. Really did turn out well.

38:27

Was the. Exposure. Of the kind of view of scripture.

38:33

And this does sort of. Dovetail with where we were in the last program. Because I'm still finding it fascinating.

38:46

What happened. With. The. Debate between Gavin Ortlund.

38:55

And Trent Horn. And some of this is just speculation on my part.

39:02

But the reality is that. In my experience of Catholic answers.

39:11

In the starting with this rock magazine in the late 1980s. And then, you know, all through the nineties into the early 2000s.

39:21

We're doing. Debate after debate after debate. The great debates and things like that.

39:28

Tim Staples and I on Bible answer, man. Jimmy Akin and I Bible answer, man. Pat Madrid and I debated twice.

39:38

And in all that time. One thing that was obvious. Was that Roman Catholic apologists are conservative.

39:49

In their view, not only of, of Catholic. Theology. But their view of scripture as well.

40:00

Maybe the Bible as well. And so. It does strike me as really interesting.

40:09

That not only would Trent Horn. Use a resource that.

40:17

Add it's. At its root. Because if you're. If you're going to be looking at.

40:23

If you're going to be making conclusions about what words. In here mean. What you believe about the nature of this.

40:32

And hence what's going to be relevant. So. If you don't think that Paul wrote. Then you can't.

40:40

Necessarily. Go to. Other Pauline texts.

40:49

And say, well, you know. Paul made this type of argumentation here. The same thing, but that would be true.

40:56

I don't think Trent Horn could be consistent. If he's, if he's buying into.

41:03

That kind of. Less than conservative perspective. I don't think he can be consistent.

41:11

To then do what I do. In responding to someone like.

41:18

Brandon Robertson or any person promoting. Homosexuality. Where I would say, well, look.

41:28

Look at what Paul does. In first Timothy chapter one, where he's walking through the deck along.

41:35

And he expands. The commandment against committing adultery.

41:43

And he uses poor Naya. And then. Arson, a coin taste.

41:52

And so this shows us that. What what Paul was saying in first Corinthians six.

41:57

And it's pretty hard to get out of Pauline authorship of first Corinthians. And in Romans chapter one, there is a consistency here.

42:07

Once you buy the. It's not really Paul. That consistency breaks down.

42:13

And it changes. Even how you do lexical studies. And can have any type.

42:21

And can hope to have any level of certainty. Regarding. The meaning of words, uses of words by certain authors and things like that.

42:32

And so. If you've. Sort of switching over a little bit here, but tying it all together.

42:41

There was a you heard Brandon. Saying, well, word of God, that's only

42:47

Jesus. Okay. So then one of the texts that was so important.

42:54

In. The. Soul scripture debate was

43:01

Mark chapter seven. And I, I normally use the, the methane version, but same thing.

43:09

But it is the encounter between Jesus. And the scribes and Pharisees.

43:17

Regarding the core bundle. So. Mark seven, five.

43:23

And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him. Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders.

43:29

But eat their bread with defiled hands. And he said to them rightly that Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites.

43:37

As it is written, this people honors me with their lips. But their heart is far away from me. But in vain, they worship me teaching as doctrines, the commandments of men.

43:46

Please note that very obviously what Jesus is doing here. Is he is identifying their.

43:53

Traditions. Specifically the tradition of the elders. As. Something that's being taught as doctrines, the mere commands of men.

44:05

So he's denying. The divine origination. Of these traditions that the

44:11

Jews claimed. Had come from Moses, but were passed down orally. Outside the written scriptures.

44:19

Which is exactly, of course, what Rome claims about her traditions as well. Leaving the commandment of God.

44:26

You hold the tradition of men. And he was also saying to them. You are good at setting aside the command of God.

44:33

In order to keep your tradition for Moses said on your father and your mother. And he who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.

44:40

But you say, if a man says to his father, his mother. Whatever you might benefit from me is Corban. That is given to God.

44:46

You no longer leave him to do anything for his father or his mother. Thus invalidating.

44:53

The. Tan log on to say you. The word of God. By your tradition, which you have handed down.

45:01

And you do many such things as that. So first. I don't have the scholars edition with me.

45:10

It's collecting dust in my office somewhere. But I would be interested.

45:19

It's probably online someplace. I haven't again. GS seminar is pretty irrelevant today, but. It's probably online somewhere.

45:28

I could. Look it up. I'd be interested to know. Do they think

45:33

Jesus said this? What color? Coding. Is put on this because you haven't.

45:39

Mark 713. Thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition.

45:45

That wasn't invalidated. Invalidating Jesus. So Brandon. Who doesn't believe the

45:51

Bible is the word of God would have a hard time with this one. But this came up.

45:59

From Trent Horn. As to what word of God means. It's obvious.

46:04

GS just quoted directly. In well two sections. He's quoted a number of different references.

46:13

Up above. He had. Where is the.

46:22

Note here. Oh, it's being covered over by the. By all the notifications. Me. There we go.

46:29

And by zoom as well at the same time. So he's quoting Isaiah 2913.

46:36

Up in Mark 7, 6, and 7. And then, of course, you know, excess 2012

46:42

Deuteronomy 516. As well as. Excess 2117

46:48

Leviticus 20 verse 9. So he's quoting from the Mosaic code and from.

46:55

Well, it's not broadly. And identifying his word of God. So this is how we use the term word of God description.

47:03

And Jesus uses the same thing and so. Brandon was struggled with that.

47:11

But then the conversation came up in in the debate. As to how people would know what the word of God was.

47:23

And I. I was a little confused by it. I want to listen to it again. But. Trent Horne was was basically making the argument that the early church fathers.

47:37

Didn't view the New Testament as scripture. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

47:47

I mean. Who specifically. Because. From a simple church history perspective.

47:57

There had to be a period. Of development. Because. There wasn't an internet.

48:08

It's it's. Really clear, for example, that Justin Martyr. If he had any exposure to Paul.

48:17

He may have had no exposure to Paul at all. But but if he did, it was. Maybe he didn't have any background or.

48:24

We don't know. But the point is, it took time for written documents. To be circulated, examined.

48:32

To get from one place to another. And so just as with.

48:38

The Old Testament scriptures. There was a period of time between Malachi.

48:45

And Christ. And for about. You know, about 200 years before Christ.

48:52

You have the laying up of the Jewish canon. Laying up of those books in the temple. So that really by the time of Jesus.

49:00

There really isn't much of a argument going on. As to what is canonical or not.

49:09

And there's some discussion about this. Some specific weirdness of the

49:15

Sadducees. On that point. But especially the Pharisees. And the same thing happened with the New Testament. There has to be a period of time.

49:22

Where these books are being. Copied and circulated. And there would be time when. There would be churches that would only have.

49:28

Maybe one or two gospels. Rather than all four. Or especially.

49:34

Some of the smaller books. Some of the personal books. I'm sure there was hesitancy.

49:42

With books like 1st, 2nd Timothy. Titus Philemon. Because they're written individuals. Instead of the churches.

49:48

Was there hesitancy on those individuals parts. In sharing those books.

49:54

That were written to them personally. There's all sorts of. Questions along those lines.

50:02

And those are issues that we need to. Dig into and think about. But I'm just.

50:10

When. When the earliest writers. Quote from.

50:16

Gospel sources. It's clearly considered authoritative.

50:24

And some of those very early sources. May have very limited. New Testament canonical.

50:32

Exposure at that point. But it's. Self -evident.

50:38

That there is authority. Attached to these things. I'm not sure if he's just trying to do the.

50:45

Well. Sola Scriptura has to be. Valid. Before the canons even known.

50:53

Because. Dogmatically. Rome doesn't do that until 15. Until the 16th century.

50:59

So that doesn't work. Obviously. Scripture functions. Before any quote unquote infallible.

51:06

Canon is ever promulgated. Or scripture could not have functioned. At the Council of Nicaea or anything like that.

51:14

But. One thing's for. One thing's for sure. Once again.

51:21

We are. We see. The incoherence. Of the Roman Catholic.

51:26

Argument on this subject. Because. Wasn't there somebody.

51:32

There had to have been someone. That had. Dogmatic. Absolute canonical.

51:38

Certainty. In the first century. Right. Peter. Well, wait a minute.

51:43

What if Peter died before the canon was closed? Well, who was. Was there an apostle?

51:53

You can't. If you can't trace it back to. Like John. Where is this apostolic authority to be found?

52:02

Is the content. Of the canon actually apostolic? Because if it's not. Then it has to come from non -apostolic individuals.

52:10

And look. Rome. Doesn't mind doing that. If. The dogmatic definition.

52:18

Of the bodily assumption of Mary. Proved anything. It proved. That Rome. Can define.

52:25

As a dogma. Something. That no apostle. Ever breathed a word about. So. Maybe they're just.

52:34

Being very. Open. Now. About. Going ahead and saying.

52:41

Yeah. There's. There's this authority. That the church has. That we can. Actually.

52:47

Bind. Consciences. With supernatural revelation. After the apostles. Maybe there's just.

52:55

Having to be honest about that. Because they did. With the bodily assumption of Mary. There isn't any question about that.

53:02

If they ever did the. Sixth Marian dogma. Co -redemptrix. Co -mediatrix. That would be.

53:08

Just another example. But. All this circling back to.

53:15

It really. Strikes me. It really.

53:23

Strikes me. A friend. Just saying. Is that dialogue. With Brandon. Available. Yeah. It's. It premiered.

53:28

At one o 'clock. On. Apology radio. It. It strikes me.

53:36

That there's. Been a shift. Within. Roman Catholic. Apologetics.

53:41

So maybe it's just an. Individual thing. I suppose. I have to leave. That as a possibility.

53:47

To. But it seems. To me. That there has been. A shift.

53:55

I don't know. How far. It can go. Though. Because one thing. I've certainly learned.

54:03

Theological. Liberalism. Is the end. Of apologetics. Because theological. Liberalism.

54:08

Has nothing. To defend. You have to have. Absolute. You have to have a revelation.

54:17

From God. To be able to. Take a stand. On it. To give a defense for it.

54:23

And the whole essence. Of liberalism. Is you don't have any of that. It doesn't exist.

54:30

So I'm not sure. What all that is about. One thing. Is absolutely certain.

54:40

You can't get around this. Mark chapter seven. Jesus. And again.

54:47

The liberal says. You mean. A late first century.

54:53

Early second century. Pseudonymous book. Flames. That someone named

54:59

Jesus said. They've got. That's why mainline denominations.

55:05

Once they. Adopt that perspective. They implode. Because they have no message for anybody.

55:12

Brandon Robertson has no message for anybody. He can't not say anything. With any kind of authority.

55:18

He has no authority. Because he has no word from God. And so.

55:26

What is. Definitely clear. In canonical scripture. Is that.

55:33

Jesus. Tested. The so -called. Oral. Tradition.

55:40

Of the Jews. Which has found the mission of. Tractate of both. The core bound rule. Specific term used to mark 711.

55:51

Jesus. Taught us. To test. Self -proclaimed.

55:59

Divine. Traditions. On the basis. Of the revealed word of God.

56:09

And so. When Rome says to me. That there is a.

56:15

Divine tradition. That comes from God. That says that Mary was.

56:21

Immaculately conceived. I test that by what's found in scripture.

56:27

Find it to be utterly contradictory. To what scripture says. And I reject it. Rome says you can't do that.

56:35

We. Are the only ones that can interpret scripture. We determine the canon. We determine what scripture means.

56:40

We determine what tradition is. We determine what tradition means. We have the ultimate authority. We are the infallible church.

56:46

And so you can't do that. And if you accept that argumentation. Then you cannot follow Jesus. Not in his commandment in Mark 7.

56:55

You can't do it. You can't do it. And if you want to say well.

57:02

And it's interesting because the Roman. The Roman Catholic would say. If the

57:08

Roman Catholic. If the modern Roman Catholic apologists. Were around in the days of Jesus. Well how could anyone know.

57:14

That on your father or your mother. Is actually a commandment from God. Without an infallible counsel.

57:19

To tell you what the canon of scripture is. And that. Takes us.

57:24

You know right back to. The white question and. Things we discussed along those lines.

57:30

Many times in the past. So. May I suggest to everyone.

57:39

Not just our regulars. Though especially to all you guys and gals. To you. To you.

57:47

Guys that are going to. Shepherd's conference. To you guys that aren't going to shepherd's conference. To you pastors.

57:54

To you homeschooled dads and moms. All of you involved in pro -life work.

58:03

Seeking to see. Human abortion abolished. Let me say to all of you.

58:13

You may have over the years considered. All the time that I spent. On solo scriptura.

58:20

And on the history of scripture. And the transmission of the text of scripture. To be somewhat.

58:26

Maybe somewhat interesting. Maybe a little quaint. Yeah that white guy.

58:32

He likes to talk about that a whole lot. You know and that's his bailiwick. May I suggest to you.

58:38

It's foundational to everything else. Everything else. All this stuff we're talking about.

58:47

Now with the Thomistic Renaissance. And resourcement. And the demand that you use.

58:53

All sorts of terminology. That you know came. Hundreds even thousand years.

58:59

After the time of Christ. What's all that boiling down to?

59:07

It's all boiling down to. The nature and sufficiency of scripture. Solo scriptura.

59:16

And it really seems to me. That. A lot of guys that I even have respect for.

59:22

Who've talked about. Well you've really enjoyed your debates. The Roman Catholics and stuff. When I see people interacting now.

59:29

With sort of like the next generation. I'm going. I'm not sure y 'all were catching.

59:36

Why. We were emphasizing the things. That we were emphasizing. And now you're finding out.

59:44

Now you're seeing. There are fundamental. Foundational issues.

59:51

About why. You will not survive. The coming tsunami.

59:57

Of secular persecution. If you do not have.

01:00:04

Both the. Intellectual commitment.

01:00:11

To what scripture claims for itself. As well as the. Spirit born spirit created.

01:00:21

Testimony. Commitment. From your heart.

01:00:29

That God has spoken. The. The Jesus seminar people.

01:00:35

Will not stand up. To a communistic totalitarian. Secular regime.

01:00:43

And continue to believe. What is recorded in Matthew chapter 19. They won't because they can't.

01:00:52

Think about. Would you be willing. To risk prison.

01:00:59

For believing what Jesus says in Matthew 19. From the beginning God created the male and female.

01:01:06

That's the created order. Would you be willing to risk jail.

01:01:13

If you actually had no confidence in Jesus. Ever said those words. Or that Jesus ever rose from the dead.

01:01:25

Because. It is interesting. I didn't bring this up in the. Conversation with Brandon. But. John Dominic Rawson.

01:01:32

The debate we did on the boat. Was. Did Jesus rise from the. Physically rise from the dead. And. Brandon Robertson has.

01:01:41

Said things. That make me go. I think he takes. That perspective on this.

01:01:47

Because they'll say. Oh I believe in resurrection. What they believe is there is a. Spiritual reality.

01:01:53

To be had somewhere. Not that there was an empty tomb. And I remember

01:01:58

Dom. He had. He knew that we were intelligent people. But it still took halfway through the debate for him to.

01:02:06

Sort of look at me and go. So. You guys actually. Believe the tomb was empty because.

01:02:13

Jesus. Physically came back to life. Yeah. That's exactly right.

01:02:21

That's exactly right. Are you really going to risk. Your life.

01:02:27

Your livelihood. Prison. For the moral teaching of scripture.

01:02:36

If you if you don't believe. In the divine nature. If you don't believe as Jesus did.

01:02:44

That God has spoken. You're not going to risk it. You'll. You'll do what the

01:02:51

United Methodists. And the liberal all the leftist denominations. Are doing. Utterly collapsing. And so that makes a connection.

01:02:59

One other thing. I didn't mean to go long. But I'll try to make this quick. The news is picking up on.

01:03:07

What we had mentioned. I think on the last program. How in the Washington Elementary School District. In Phoenix.

01:03:14

Well, Northwest Valley. So it might be in Glendale. My kids went to that. That school district.

01:03:22

Many, many years ago. And. They have voted.

01:03:28

To. Not allow. Students from Arizona Christian University. To student teach for them.

01:03:35

Because Arizona Christian University. Holds to Jesus's teaching. On the nature of human sexuality.

01:03:41

Marriage so and so forth. This is coming for all of us.

01:03:47

For all of us. In every field. These people are totalitarians.

01:03:55

It's coming up on a quarter of a century ago. Maybe even longer now. I don't remember when I first used the first phrase.

01:04:03

We may find out. Soon. We're talking with someone. Someone approached me about. Maybe. Being able to actually.

01:04:12

Meaningfully. Digitally index. All the dividing. On the basis of spoken word.

01:04:19

Be able to look for everything. And that might actually allow me to find out. When I first used the phrase.

01:04:26

Uber rights. But. I. Said.

01:04:33

Long ago. Homosexuals do not want equal rights. They want Uber rights. And you listen.

01:04:39

To the. Ditzy woman. On the school board.

01:04:45

In the Washington elementary school district. You listen to what she said. In proposing.

01:04:51

And getting passed unanimously. This motion to no longer use. Christian students.

01:04:58

As student teachers. You listen to what she says. This. These are people.

01:05:04

Who have rights that none the rest of us have. You can't even get close.

01:05:09

To offending one of these people. You can offend a Christian. Up one side. Down the other. Who cares.

01:05:16

Not these folks. Not these folks. Oh no. You can't. They are.

01:05:24

They want. And have gotten. Uber rights. Now I will say one other thing. Once the last bit.

01:05:33

Of cohesion. In this society breaks down. And societal order breaks down.

01:05:39

And the result is a police state. And totalitarianism. And all liberties and freedoms lost.

01:05:47

Let me tell you something. The regime that rises. Out of that. Will care nothing.

01:05:56

For homosexuals. Once they have the power. Once they have the total power.

01:06:04

You will find out they are simply using. These individuals. And have no concern for them.

01:06:14

That then will collapse as well. Because this is God's world.

01:06:21

And we are made in God's image. And every day. The world is seeking.

01:06:28

To chip away. At your recognition of that. Brothers and sisters. Spend time.

01:06:37

Spend time in here. Let the spirit of God. Minister the word of God to you.

01:06:45

And heal you from the constant. Damage that is done by this world. The things we see.

01:06:52

When we turn on a computer today. The drag queens.

01:06:58

Grooming children. It damages our souls. We need to be with other believers.

01:07:05

We need to be in prayer. We need to be in the word. Memorize the word. Young people.

01:07:13

Memorize scripture. I can't memorize the way I used to. I just can't.

01:07:20

Your brain chemistry changes. I think of those teenage years.

01:07:25

And the joy. That I had. I remember one specific summer.

01:07:34

Nobody else was home. I'd be home alone. Because I was working nights. 6 to midnight. And I would walk.

01:07:42

The little hallway in our home. It wasn't a big house. Back and forth.

01:07:48

Memorizing scripture. Memorizing. Memorizing. Because I love my.

01:07:56

This is the. LSV that I had in the debate we had recently.

01:08:02

In Tullahoma. Another beautiful piece of work from Jeffrey Rice. I probably won't get to take this to prison.

01:08:10

If I end up there. Memorize. Memorize.

01:08:17

Love. Pray. Fellowship. And support everybody who's doing the same thing.

01:08:23

Support everybody who's doing the same thing. As we close. Once again. Wow. Sitting here in.

01:08:36

And I've named her. I would love to take you around and show you stuff and everything else.

01:08:42

I'd love to tell you the name. All the rest of that kind of stuff. But we have so many people who do not like us. And I have to be.

01:08:50

I have to recognize that. There'll be some people would like to damage this thing. Maybe destroy it.

01:08:57

So. But I have. I can tell you this. I named it after my mom.

01:09:04

She's she. My mom would have loved to have traveled in one of these things. She would have.

01:09:11

Loved it. She loved to travel. She didn't get to do much of it. But what she did.

01:09:17

She she just enjoyed so much. So. It's. Awesome. And we're excited.

01:09:25

And pray that for my safety as I drive. Wisdom as I drive. And then wisdom as to how to.

01:09:33

Put the studio in. In a, in a fashion that will allow it to survive being bounced around because.

01:09:41

That's what happens. You go through construction zones. You. Drive the

01:09:47

I -40 in New Mexico. You go to Louisiana. You go to Shreveport. Ah, the I -20 in Shreveport.

01:09:55

Stuff gets bounced all over the place. We have to do it right. And make it effective.

01:10:01

Make it efficient. Make it something I can just dive in there. And it's there. It's ready to go.

01:10:07

It can be done, but it's going to take some. Some planning and some wisdom. Pray for us that the spirit of God would give us direction.

01:10:16

So anyways. Thanks again for tuning in today. If you didn't get a chance to see apology or radio tune in.

01:10:26

We were very straightforward. Jeff, especially. Very straightforward with Brandon as to.

01:10:35

You know, he's a false teacher. And of course he said the same thing about us that we are hurting people and we're damaging people and all the rest of this kind of stuff.

01:10:43

There is no middle ground here. Once you reject God's law and God's way.

01:10:50

There's no middle ground. Make sure to go get. Go listen to that.

01:10:55

Download it. That's the kind of thing that I'll be honest with you. I'm worried.

01:11:03

Everybody needs to grab that and download it because I'm not sure. How long it'll be up.

01:11:09

I hope it stays up. But you and I both know. The people at Google.

01:11:15

Yeah. That's the way it is. So thanks for watching. We'll see you next time on The Dividing Line. God bless.