A Nearly Two Hour Road Trip Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:31

And greetings and welcome to the dividing line, my name is James white We are coming to you live from somewhere in the very sadly blue state of Colorado Place that I saw a sign alongside the road that says that all

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All fireworks are illegal in this city Last night and saved me, but we'll see about this evening it can't possibly be as bad as it is at home

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When we had more than one White Why fourth and New Year's Eve and this year like every night from Christmas to New Year's Eve?

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Was was pretty ugly. It's pretty bad But anyways, if you are out and about you are doing your thing.

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We certainly understand that today. I Just did not want to wait to address some very very important topics

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And I I do have to start off I suppose and and if you're looking to just have a grand old day and you're you're you're dressed up like Captain America or Uncle Sam or Whatever it is.

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You may want to skip the first part of the program and listen to it later but I just I Have to be honest

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I think Probably I think most Christians Having lived through yet another month of depravity.

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I Mentioned that on Twitter today and some Homosexual, I'm not sure why in the world.

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They are trying to find posts like this, but Talked about my month of bigotry

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So, you know, you're a bigot if you don't buy into their shoving their sexuality in your face

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These folks have absolutely no respect for language, but anyway After a month of depravity, it's very hard only four days later to sing god bless

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America and Do the fireworks? Look, I understand

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I they're beautiful and I'm I'm a historian.

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I look back at what we did for example in in World War two and In World War one and but those were long time ago

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World War two that generation is pretty much passed away now and So much has changed there was no pride month during World War two

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There there was no pride month on September 13th 2001 when

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I sat in The studio, I'm pretty sure that was in Rich's garage in 2001

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Sat at my desk and Honestly said to the studio audience after one most amazing events in our history the attacks of 9 -eleven

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Which history has also made us think through a lot of issues regarding that But we had all just experienced something amazing

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I remember the night of 9 -eleven My house is under the landing pattern to Sky Harbor International Airport when the wind is going a certain direction anyway, and The only planes in the air were military jets flying over the city every once in a while and We were all sort of in shock and We did a program two days after the attacks and I said then and We didn't have a pride month in 2001

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I said then that the only blessing that we could Seriously ask the

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Lord for for our nation was the blessing of a soul shattering heartfelt repentance toward God And there was a brief period of time where we did seem to lay aside our differences a little bit and There was for a few months a togetherness in the nation that we have not had since then and I don't know that we would have again

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Even if there was another event like that as I am certain there will be and probably on a much greater scale

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But things have only gotten worse since 2001 You've we've had a burger fell there were no drag queen story hours

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There was no obvious push toward Pedophilia and polyamory and You know

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Barack Obama still thought that marriage is between a man and woman 2001 and so much much has changed and it has not changed for the better in our in our culture and so it's just honestly very hard for me to Feel patriotic

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About a traitorous nation we have betrayed Those that gave their lives for our country

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We have betrayed the Constitution. We betrayed the the founders we now vilify them as horrible terrible men white cisgendered bigots and So July 4th just isn't a day of celebration for me

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It should be a day of serious prayer Requesting that God would

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In some way shape or form bring revival to our land and and to our people

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But also a recognition that there were fundamental and foundational cracks from the beginning

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I Forgot to link to it and I hope I will not remember after this program I can assure you because I have so much to cover

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But I was listening to The second part of the response

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I'm catching up on apology or radio. I I can't always keep up with it I try but there's there's just so much

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I need to try to get to it's actually a little bit easier while traveling if I Just use the resources are available to me and a couple of months ago.

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Well, maybe a month and a half ago Jeff and Luke and Zach had responded to the men from g3 on the whole

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Christian nationalism thing and They did so very very respectfully

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Jeff and Josh have worked together in Georgia on the abortion stuff and They had done an initial program which

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I do believe I mentioned I know I retweeted it I was in Georgetown at the times that would have been

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May of this year the last last trip that we did and Then they did a follow -up program that I had not heard

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And so I got to listen to that really found it extremely helpful. And one of the things that came up was

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Jeff Durbin responded to a Question that was asked

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I think by Scott annual It might have been Josh actually now I think about it, what would you change about the

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Constitution? and I really found Jeff's very sober

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And insightful response really helpful. So I will try to remember I doubt that I will succeed but I will try to remember to Link to that as it is relevant to what we're talking about right now but so I'm not one of those people

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I I Unfortunately have had to grow up a lot as an adult in my recognition of the fact that my nation has done a lot of things that are

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Destructive and Have been destructive to people's around the world however in the same breath

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I have to say our Continued existence has been a bulwark against much worse evil in the sense of totalitarianism and communism

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It is astonishing to watch as we fly pride flags from our embassies around the world and and in essence

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Advertised to the world the world knows that's a sign of weakness the world knows that's unnatural the world knows that it's a it's sexual perversity and Yet we are exporting it and advertising in the process our own weakness as a culture and a nation

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We see this Admiral Richard Levine Out there doing his thing and then there was some

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I saw some tweet about Some other guy who's decided he's a gal and and so now in the military it's it's not just don't ask don't tell it's paraded in front of everybody and Shove it in their faces.

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That's that's where we are from from going from don't ask don't tell to This type of stuff it is it's been an astonishingly quick movement

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I can assure you of that. So anyway Yeah, I think today is a good day of repentance

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Repentance for the nation would be what we need to be praying for and And giving thanks to God that we survived another

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Month -long celebration of depravity. I don't know about you. I got the feeling

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I really did get the feeling that a lot of the pagans the non -christians

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Who just don't buy into all this foolishness. They know the difference between a man woman Um, they they look to me like they're sort of getting a little sick of the whole thing

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Get a little tired of it I think we may be hitting the point where a lot of people are just like look

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Enough already. This is this is ridiculous and We'll see. We'll see That would be that would be wonderful and useful.

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So what I wanted to get to today And I've spent a lot of time a lot of time prepping for this program

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I have a keynote presentation I've put together. I've got an audio note taker presentation. I've put together

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The Smarter part of my brain says you'll never get through all of this in this period of time, but I want to try

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To to do so I think it would be helpful to do so The main thing that I had already said we're going to do is continue our examination of and refutation of Unitarianism exposure of it for what it is a

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Sub -christian sub biblical replacement for biblical

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Christianity always leads to Liberalism and decay over time just history has shown without a divine saver.

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You don't You don't end up with a divine religion by any stretch of imagination. And so That's what we will be doing.

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That will be the last topic But yesterday morning I was getting ready to leave

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To to do a bike ride actually at very high altitude and I Stumbled across a mention on Twitter Someone had written to me and had said it was really he said

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I listened to the last episode of mortification of spin from the

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Alliance of confessing evangelicals And he said it was really hard to listen to and he said it was pretty obvious They were taking a lot of shots at you

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And I've listened to mortification spin. I've been on mortification. I think about more than once but that was many years ago and things have changed and of course

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Carl Truman is And Todd Pruitt are the primary host. They used to have

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Amy Bird, but that didn't turn out. Well and She sort of gone her own way and to be honest with you, you know, my daughter had identified

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Amy's trajectory Long before the men on the program recognized

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Amy's trajectory. Let's put it that way. Anyway, I Hadn't heard of it this first that I had heard of anything and So I was like, um, what did they say?

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What was the topic? so I Fired up my podcast app, which

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I'm gonna be using it more in the future it was way out of date and fired it up and Tracked down the last episode and not too much of my surprise at all the guest was

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Matthew Barrett and The topic was his new book on the

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Reformation as renewal and So I'm like, okay. Well, you know that that might be the case

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Back in I believe May I had On one of the credo podcasts

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Carl Truman had made reference to a popular Baptist And something about Philippians chapter 2 and So as I mentioned on last program,

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I wrote to the only address that I had for Carl Didn't get a response back. It was a gmail address and most of us keep our gmail addresses, but I didn't get response back

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So this time I I went ahead and downloaded the podcast and listened to it while I was driving out to my ride and Then I I asked that some other folks

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In one of our groups. Well, our only group really listen to it as well and Tell me

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Do you think they're talking about me here? Because I just wanted some other other ears to be listening and The majority response was yeah, it sounds like they're they're making reference to you.

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So I have written again to dr. Truman and This time

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I went to Grove City website and got his school email address

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It's what's currently listed and it says that he will not return until July 6th.

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So Okay I'll let you know if I hear anything back if I don't hear anything in a week or so.

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I'll write again and Because I think that if you're going to make reference to people and Say that they are misleading people and that they're an error on this side of the other thing

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That you should have the temerity and simply the integrity to name names

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Um, it's a whole lot easier to just throw people into a big bucket and that's what's happening in this this mortification of spin episode is you you've got a big old bucket and Every and this is this is what

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Barrett did in his Trinity book as well is you just you throw everybody into The other side and so you end up with with Bruce where In the same pile with William Lane Craig well

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There there are wider differences between some of the Thomas That are pushing this stuff on us today

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Then there are between a lot of the people they put into this one pile and so it's not useful.

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It's not helpful It's not fair But people are getting away with it a whole lot

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What's more is especially since dr. Truman keeps mentioning Philippians chapter 2 if he's referring to me and I like I said

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Haven't heard back yet. I truly hope he's not I don't know of anybody else

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That has made any comments, but I'd like to know okay Show me your exegesis of Philippians chapter 2 show me the church's exegesis of Philippians chapter 2 and When was this done who did it?

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And where have I violated something because I know Everything that Carl and I did was after I wrote my book on the

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Trinity so my views of Philippians chapter 2 But I just get the feeling most these folks would say hey none of that stuff back then matters

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Um, we were dumb back. Then you were dumb back. Then we've gotten smart. You're still dumb

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It just really seems to be where things are going which seems very very odd to me as well but again, we'll find out

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I hope I Really my sincere. Hope is that these comments aren't about me, but we're gonna listen to some of them and You can sort of figure things out.

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This will allow us an opportunity to do some church history And so today we're gonna be doing church history and then we're going to do

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Unitarianism and we're going to walk through a Sophistic argument against the deity of Christ put out by Dale Tuggy and we're gonna demonstrate just how vacuous it really is and Go from there

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May also Pick up one other Unitarian thread

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We'll see obviously the chances of getting through all that are relatively small but But we will we will see so let's get into it.

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Let me play segments from Mortification of spin. I think this was

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June 21st, which was the last episode So it's not like they do it daily or a couple times a week or anything like that I believe the date was

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June 21st. So again Matthew Barrett Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary is the guest with Todd Pruitt and Dr.

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Truman's so let's um, let's get into it and see what there is to hear You know, some will lament the

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Reformation for schism others celebrate the Reformation for you know schism

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As if the Reformation is an abandonment of tradition You know, it got past those dark ages for a reason and and so for the first time the

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Reformation has recovered that that which was corrupted Even even by the perhaps the church fathers themselves okay, so I Actually missed the first quote

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I'll play it here in a second. That was the second one but It is vitally important For us to for for all

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Christians to think through What we understand the Reformation to have been and I Can demonstrate beyond question?

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That most of the major non controversial

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Assertions being made by both. Dr. Truman and dr. Barrett are Not controversial and not new to them and they weren't 20 years before they started before 2016 and our

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Truman has said that's when he really became appreciative of Thomas and and Dr.

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Barrett wrote his soul scriptura book in 2016 And I don't I do not believe for a second that he would write that book in the same way again

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So let's just say 2016 Of 20 years before that I taught through church history well,

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I've been teaching since 1990 church history, but I did a recorded

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Version of that at the Phoenix Perform Baptist Church. It was originally done in real audio that dates it

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Anything record in real audio is part of the ancient church And I know that Razors kiss from our old chat channel

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Had actually downloaded all that stuff in real audio and converted to empty mp3 and I think it's still out there some places over 50 lessons in that very old recording and it was

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Sound quality Not good but I know that's out there and then

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I Did church history from about 20? 16 2017 till sometime in 2018 again at PR BC and that's still online at sermon audio a number of people have downloaded all that and collected it together and and stuff like that In both of those so one was in the 90s one was much more recent in Both of those teachings of church history.

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And of course, I could just simply call upon My students of church history down through the years to testify to the truthfulness of this

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Most of what's being said is Non -controversial Remember a few weeks ago.

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I think one of the first things that I recorded in this studio on my own surprised rich to no end was when

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I responded to Candace Owens and the debate between her husband and Ali bestucky on Roman Catholicism, of course, she converted that was sort of obvious at the time that that's what she was gonna do

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But remember at the beginning I played her and I played the question That her husband had asked of her that she couldn't answer

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Which was do you really think Martin Luther was the first Christian after the disciples and I pointed out that's just absurd

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It is such a straw man Misrepresentation of What we believe but there are people who believe that Now I they could they can't ever have read anything that Luther wrote they couldn't have read

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Calvin most process ever have Most Protestants are not

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Protestants of conviction They are Protestants of tradition and taste Vast majority of people in evangelical churches do not know what the issues of the

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Reformation were at all Totally unaware and so It's just not even controversial

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To say that the Reformers rejected the idea That they were coming up with something new they were rejecting the accretion of non -apostolic non -biblical tradition and So when when people say well

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The Reformation was renewal it wasn't creation of something new well, if what you mean by renewal is a renewal of apostolic preaching

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Then yes But it's beyond question that someone like Calvin Though very familiar with the early church fathers did not view any of them as an inspired

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Container of Tradition passed on from the disciples for example, and so Calvin is willing to criticize anybody and It's the standard that he uses that is most most important to us

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What standard does he use in analyzing anyone and of course the response is

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Scripture and that's what the issue is all about The issue really here is not

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No one is seriously. No one is in in who? has read

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Calvin and has read Luther and Zwingli and Is at least mildly familiar with second third fourth generation reformed writers that do recognize that reformed orthodoxy

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Did not necessarily continue the same trajectory as Calvin for example but that in every movement you have a

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Solidification of positions a period of definition That takes place after the initial

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Reformed Movement gets it gets going That's happened many times most denominations experience things like that and certainly the

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Reformation as a whole did but again the the reality is that when

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Calvin and Saddleetto cross swords Calvin does argue.

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We are we are teaching and preaching What the Apostles taught and the way he proves that is

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Primarily and foundationally from Scripture and Secondarily by the demonstration that their interpretation of Scripture is not unique But that there were those in the apostolic period or even later

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I Don't think for example, I could be wrong about this haven't checked this but I Got a good probability of being right.

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I don't think Calvin ever had read Fulgentius. I don't think Fulgentius his writings were yet available but if he had had access to Fulgentius he would have been quoting him all the time as yet another example of Someone in the history of the church holding the same views

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That the Reformers are promoting also recognizing that many of the men including

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Augustine that they would cite in defense of the

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Reformation the other side could cite in defense of Roman Catholicism on other topics and so they recognize that The sources in history

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Will not be 100 % They're not claiming that everyone the early church looked exactly like them on every subject in every issue

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These are basics that I've been teaching for a long long time, unfortunately, it's being presented as if this is some new

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Thing that no one in the 20th century understood and of course

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Again it's real easy to throw everybody into into one pile the ignorant people who've never read a word of Calvin and those who've read all of Calvin and Luther and all sorts of other things in the process so We are forced to think these things through I Think it's vitally important that we do so that all of us do so I I really do think this is something that a lot of folks will say well

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No, it doesn't really have anything to do with my life It will and it does and it's influencing the dominations the churches you give to everything else

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Let me go back and catch the first quote that I had scrolled past. I apologize for that This was the first thing that I had that I had marked

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Protestantism today Has been quite influenced in countless ways by modernism post -modernism

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You look at evangelicalism today and in so many ways

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Theologically speaking it is not just diverse to put it nicely but Sometimes diverse in the worst sense of the word because there is no agreement even on primary matters of the faith well

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Yes There is a tremendous amount of unbelief in modern -day

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Protestantism just as there is a tremendous amount of diversity and unbelief within Roman Catholicism there's not quite as much variation within orthodoxy, but My criticism of orthodoxy all along has been that it's

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It's stuck in time It is stuck in in a two -century period of time and Can't Cannot respond to modern issues

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Because it has so hyper elevated the tradition of a particular period in church history that it's it's fossilized it can't move anywhere and I think there are some

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Eastern Orthodox folks that recognize the Problem that exists there, but anyway But yes, there's there's diversity of opinion amongst people

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But that is not solved by access to a self -proclaimed tradition

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Because Rome has a self -proclaimed tradition and still has

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Pope Francis and Boston College and father Martin and All the rest of this kind of stuff

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So the the answer for evangelicalism Evangelicalism will always be enriched by knowing more about its own history

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But that's not the foundation. That's not the the fundamental way of solving anything

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The fundamental foundation for solving something is called a return to the highest view of Scripture and The daily application of those scriptural standards to our own lives and to the life and worship of the church as well

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But you still see this across the different corners of the Reformation they are all saying something similar

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We too are Catholic and by that they don't mean Catholic with a capital C They mean Catholic with a lowercase e as in we too are part of the the universal

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Church in Their minds that was critical not only for Resurrecting their own reputation and credibility

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Against these accusations from Rome, but also I do want to add this also for distinguishing themselves from the radicals of the 16th century who

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Ironically look a lot more like some of those characters. I just mentioned. Yeah Some of the characters that just mentioned this is

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Matthew Barrett that is speaking Again one of the

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Tactics of this particular movement right now is to try to tie anyone who questions the

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Thomistic Renaissance Throw them all into the Anabaptist Munster group and and by the way, that's a highly effective methodology

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The the events at Munster for example were why Calvin never gave

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Any Anabaptist even an Anabaptist it was a world away from Jan of Leiden Any never even listen to what they had to say there there could be no dialogue there could be no discussion

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Once Munster took place That was it. It was over from that point on and that's a huge impact and So it's very effective then to try to paint people into these radicalized groups

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That's also behind the incredibly absurd disrespectful dishonest and childish utilization of the term neo -sassanian

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That has been bandied around over the past year as well same type of thing this isn't serious argumentation this is throw them into a disgraced group and there you are but The element of truth

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I was fine an element of truth stuck in anything The element of truth of what he's saying is yes, the

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Reformers want to stay as far away as possible From Munster the

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Anabaptists that's why it was a joint Catholic Lutheran army that eventually broke through the walls of Munster and ended that rebellion that was one way in which both

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Protestants and Catholics could say Not this ever again, which is why those three cages are still hanging on The Cathedral in Munster that's that's their way of saying no this this we can never allow this to happen

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And it should never happen again And so you would actually say that the

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Reformers thought that there were Christians before the 16th century, right? Yes, you know it sounds so silly

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I know this but sometimes we're given the impression that Martin Luther showed up and He took a bunch of pagans and he walked in as the first Christian, yeah and suddenly

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The gospel that had never been You know seen or heard of since the

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Apostles made its first appearance. Yeah but that's of course Martin Luther would have

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Cringed it right in hearing that type of narratives And of course he would have

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And of course once again, we're talking here about people who are

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Astonishingly Ignorant of church history. They're the only ones that could say that something and there are people like that.

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I mean, let's be honest That is pretty much the perspective you'd get from Dave Hunt in a lot of his writings years ago and That's what

37:09

Candice was saying, you know Martin Luther the first Christian and again, it's it's

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Astonishing ignorance but it's not it can't be taken seriously because you you recognize that anyone who would

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Take things that way has never read church history. They never read Calvin. They've read Luther. They don't know what they're talking about but that is a large portion of The religious population whether Catholic or Protestant But it obviously has nothing to do with those of us who have serious questions about this new

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Thomistic revival That is taking place to try to again create that connection is truly unworthy of anybody

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Yeah, I was teaching a class this morning. I showed a Christology class at Grove And we were looking at canonic

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Christology from the 19th century at to Marcia's abroad guests of people like that and one of the things that was striking to the students is that Canonic Christology, which is a clear break with the classical

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Christology you find in the Reformation Is very close to some of the Christological formulations you find in popular evangelical writers today

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Now what needs to be done here is that dr. Truman Who in decades past?

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was known for straight shooting and Naming names he needs to name names

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He needs to give specific examples Because again, like I said back in May he referred to a popular

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Baptist presenter And has made references to Sassanian ism and Kenosis and things like this needs to get specific

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It sounds like he's making reference to me I hope not because it would be a dishonest reference anyone knows that my exegesis of Philippians chapter 2 is in my book

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Which he recommended when we did Speaking together in years past because I wrote that in the 90s and so If he you know,

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I would like to know who are these modern writers and What is it about their

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Christology that sounds canonic and what do you mean by? Canonic what how are you defining that?

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How do you and how do you exegete Philippians chapter 2? These are just necessary Things because if I am the person being referenced there, then

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I will challenge. Dr. Truman to demonstrate from my published works What he's talking about and I'll challenge him to debate.

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Yeah, I'd be happy to debate him It's a brilliant man, but on this subject, he's simply wrong if he's making reference to me

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Maybe he's referring to someone completely different. I hope so. I hope so I'd like to know who what what is this?

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what are these people saying about Christ and What language are they using is it you know?

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we know that all sorts of people everybody has to use language of veiling laying aside not in the sense of divesting but There's the glory

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That Jesus had as he sat upon the throne Isaiah 6 1 He did not possess in Manifestation During the incarnation.

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That's a given no one can argue this Jesus did not walk through the streets of Jerusalem glowing with Shekinah glory

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There is one period of time on the Mount of Transfiguration When that was changed Briefly for a purpose for a reason so everybody believes that there is some kind of veiling that takes place

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So the Sun can do what the Sun needs to do as the Messiah. So What's the issue?

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What's the point? And if there is some guy and he's gonna make reference later to you know

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The church's interpretation of litmus to I want to know when the church did this Because I can

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I can point you to Interpretations of almost any biblical passage by some of the greatest leaders

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Augustine Athanasius Cyril Basil the

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Gregory's that Karl Truman will disagree with has to disagree with so there has to be a standard and That standard needs to be applied regularly everybody and fairly in the process, too so Let's let's not do the we're just gonna throw vague accusations out that make us look good and everybody else look bad

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Let's actually Name names give sources, you know, like I'm playing you all right now

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Do the same thing do the same thing? one of the important things I think in your book

42:39

Matthew is you draw attention to the the important Dogmatic and structural continuities that exist between The 16th 17th century theology, which of course is when the great confessions that many of us are confessionally evangelical or confessional

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Protestants look to the Westminster standards the three forms of unity when many of these are

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Formulated really a lot of the the key meaty theology in those documents is drawn

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Without much if any Modification from the Middle Ages in the patristic era and so it's

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I would say it's entertaining because it's more annoying than entertaining but it is interesting to see a number of people waving the banner of the

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Reformation today who Might even have been burned at the stake for some of the things they're saying

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But certainly not have been held in very high regard by the kind of people who took services down for example

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In Geneva, so I think it looks very helpful that perspective Okay every reformed

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Baptist would been in danger of minimal minimally Exile if not being burnt to stay so that's that's real easy.

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That's real easy to do Um, but again, it's very vague it's not specific and No one is arguing that there are not consistencies

44:10

From the medieval period no one's saying there was just it was it was just this radical Reformation To quote a well -known study of that subject that I actually haven't happened with me right here

44:23

That's not what's being argued So what is the issue?

44:30

What what what why even bring up, you know people that are waving the banner of the Reformation So is that what every

44:37

Presbyterian says about every Baptist? That wasn't where he where he was 15 years ago

44:44

Is that where he is now is is he with those because there are I've met Presbyterians that are still in the mindset of when

44:53

Presbyterians were drowning Baptists Baptists have a long murder ology at the hand of reformed people.

45:00

So is that where he is now? I can't see how But then why then why raise these issues?

45:08

Why why bring this up be specific? Be specific about what's being said

45:15

There is a backstory at all this and it's gonna come out when Todd Pruitt speaks he's gonna point this out that There's the issue of Becoming Roman Catholics.

45:27

That's gonna come toward the end of the comments We're gonna listen to him and it will be important to think those those things through Because I can point you to lots of former reform folks.

45:38

Dr. Truman himself was on you know, we've played portions webcast he was on about two years ago now and Both men who are interviewing him were former reformed men one now a

45:47

Roman Catholic one Orthodox. That's where dr Truman says it's really troubling to have to deal with the reality that to come to the conclusion that The men from whom you learned the most about justification were wrong on the doctrine of God.

46:03

I've played the statement I could track it down. I probably still have it here. It'd take a while to find it, but I played the statement

46:09

Actually, no, I think it's in the same program that I've got here. I bet you I can pull it up fairly quickly anyway, um

46:17

That the reality of that movement and The reasons for that movement is something

46:24

I know a lot about I'm pretty certain That I have spoken with more converts.

46:33

I Have been asked to speak with more people who were about to convert Then everybody on this program combined and put together over the decades

46:45

Because of what I do because the debates we've done I know I've engaged a whole lot more Roman Catholics than they have

46:52

So Again the the the generalities do not help to actually promote any kind of meaningful dialogue between us all

47:06

Luther says to Karlstad at one point after this long debate over Karlstad He's so frustrated.

47:14

The Reformation is not moving fast enough. He wants images destroyed and and Luther says well, this is turning into a new type of legalism, etc

47:21

Etc. You know, well Luther says to him at one point, you know, you can't say you swallowed the

47:27

Holy Spirit feathers and all It's quite the insult because essentially what

47:34

Luther if he pushes it further he's essentially saying to him you're standing on your own two feet by yourself

47:45

As if no one has come before you as if you alone have the Holy Spirit and so Luther learns

47:53

I think quite early As soon as Karlstad goes in that direction because it's a radical direction

48:00

It radicalizes itself until no one's left. It ends up being a party of one again in 2017

48:13

Before even dr. Barrett started going the directions that now Define him

48:20

I stood in Numerous of the cities that marked

48:26

Luther's life in Germany and lectured on this very issue

48:34

We talked about Karlstad I Mentioned I when I preached This I'll have to try to remember to to link to this

48:44

But when I preached in the castle church in Wittenberg from Luther's pulpit with Luther buried right down there

48:51

Melanchthon buried right over there when I preached in that church that sermon is on YouTube and I mentioned

49:01

Karlstad and I mentioned what he did In regards to the

49:07

Christmas Eve New Year's stuff and giving the the supper in both kinds to the people and they came rushing forward and I was talking about events that happened in that room itself and so again the

49:25

Development of Luther's theology I have an entire lecture on the two Luthers that I delivered in Washington DC on Reformation Day in 2017 on YouTube I mean,

49:38

I think You know very clearly when this Wicca profits came into town Luther initially

49:45

Was not nearly as negative toward them as he would have been 15 years later.

49:51

I See 1525 as the dividing line in Luther's life. That's where the peasants revolt

49:59

Changes any of the Liberal directions that Luther had played with including toward the

50:08

Jews Anyway, the point is this is again. Nothing new It it sounds

50:17

I think to Or it's meant to sound too many people like we are correcting these errors we've been speaking about these things all along and the errors are not from people who actually

50:33

Know church history or have taught church history for decades but from those who ignore church history and my concern of course is that Many people get the idea that the more you know church history then you're going to agree with this synthesis on tradition

50:55

That I see as being very dangerous, and there's there's no reason to do that. There's no reason to go that direction

51:02

Many of us have fully aware of these things for a long long time and We have been warning about these things so I I Continue on I'm I may get through this in a fairly timely manner shockingly

51:20

It's a bit ironic isn't it because at the end of the day the radicals who radicalize? Then disagree eventually disagree with each other and have to excommunicate one another and so at some point

51:32

The circle gets smaller and smaller in that sense. I would say it's a lost cause So he had been asked does he think that it's a lost cause?

51:40

To talk to these people who again have not been identified which is again reprehensible from my perspective

51:49

It should not be done in that fashion but There's truth to the fact that the

51:56

Anabaptist would divide and divide divide This is the argument that Rome uses today

52:03

The problem is that Roman Catholics are not united there is just as wide an expression of beliefs between conservative

52:14

Tried in teen Roman Catholics and a professor at Boston College Massively wide worldview differences and theology differences and everything else and so having a tradition

52:29

It's being suggested. It's having a tradition that keeps us from happening, but it doesn't keep it from happening

52:38

Though again that has been the Roman Catholic argument all along That that is how you keep division from happening and that would apply to Some folks today as well

52:51

We could put it this way they Radicalized sola scriptura into solo scriptura

52:59

Okay Pretty much anytime you hear this group.

53:06

So anyone associated with credo Using this statement you can pretty much just move on because This was

53:15

I remember in the 1990s probably about 96 97

53:22

I remember when I think a writer for Ligonier used the solo scriptura thing and It was responded to immediately by Pretty much all of us who were actually engaged in doing

53:38

Roman Catholic evangelization which You know, I just sitting here thinking do any of these guys evangelize

53:45

Roman Catholics? Or have they reached a level of detente? You know when you're constantly saying oh this

53:52

Roman Catholic, right? He's great this God all these they're the best of this No, the best of that So you're getting together with these scholars and you're talking to them about the gospel, right?

54:02

You're talking you're asking them. Are you the blessed man a Romans for a

54:08

I wonder what the last time any of these guys asked a Roman Catholic that question That's very troubling to me.

54:16

Very very troubling to me but anyway No one is

54:24

Seriously doing the solo scriptura thing who has any knowledge of church history any idea what soul scripture actually means has ever read

54:31

Yves Congar's works on work on on tradition any of that kind of stuff again, what you do is you take the

54:41

Illiterate People who are just going on What they heard at church someplace?

54:47

they don't know anything about church history things like that and you create a pile and then you throw everybody into it and So it's guilt by association.

54:55

It's unworthy of Christians. It shouldn't be done Um, but that's what marks this

55:03

Thomistic resourcement revival group in their polemics is

55:09

They'll they'll block you. They won't quote you they won't interact with you, but they'll misrepresent you the caricature you in their rather wide

55:21

Social media publishing contexts and Again, that's just that's just not how that's not how

55:30

Christians should do things as if there are no authorities whatsoever or as if You know you mentioned

55:38

Carl even you know doctrine as a whole as if We only pay attention to say soteriology and ecclesiology and then

55:49

We apply a certain hermeneutic description that then can't make sense of metaphysics That's so important for say the doctrine of God or Christology as you are teaching on today

55:58

Carl Okay, now think about that for a second what was just said it almost sounds like what

56:06

Matthew Barrett was saying is that if That we're applying that we have one set of hermeneutics

56:16

For soteriology justification by faith. What can we name just throw it out there and name it? Justification my faith how you have peace with God Rome's doctrine on that does not bring you peace

56:30

So you have one set of hermeneutics for that, but you have a different set of hermeneutics for the doctrine of God So are you saying that Rome has the right hermeneutics for that and the wrong hermeneutics for the other?

56:40

How do you prove that? What's gonna be your what's gonna be your source? What's gonna be your foundation your authority?

56:47

because you see When you say that Rome's hermeneutics for God are right, but wrong for soteriology

56:55

You're setting anybody up to go well, but Rome says her hermeneutics the nature of God is this and comes from this source of authority and therefore if you're saying they're right about that then they have to be right about a secondary issue that's down the line from the primary issue and Then you have former students of Matthew Barrett being

57:23

Received in the Roman Catholic Church only a few weeks ago at Easter, right? He's well aware of that. He's where what where that happened

57:32

Don't mention it I would really love to know if he met with this individual or tried to reach out to this individual and if he did what he say

57:44

Because I'd like to know what he would say Because I don't believe that Matthew Barrett today could say what the

57:49

Matthew Barrett of 2016 said in his book unscriptural sufficiency I don't think he could There's been there's a too much of a of a shift and a change over that time period.

58:00

I Think a lot of this is still quite relevant today So that I would just say to listeners

58:08

You probably will take some wisdom to discernment. Okay. Is this person a lost cause or is this person?

58:13

Can they be corrected to actually look at the sources themselves and say, oh, yeah, whether it's

58:18

Luther or Calvin or Bollinger or Cranmer Or jewel and so many others.

58:25

They saw themselves as Catholic, but With a small C because they did not think of themselves as innovator innovators

58:34

They did they thought of themselves as biblical but not biblicist They saw themselves as reformers, but that reform itself hinged upon and depended upon That both the church fathers and and the medieval classics before him.

58:48

I think you see this Okay now notice something and I certainly noticed this throughout this section.

58:54

What does it mean to be biblical and not biblicist? There's obviously a definition of biblicism back there

59:00

That is not being Enunciated and That's again what we see over and over again from this group is

59:09

We're gonna come up with our own definitions and we're not gonna talk to you about it We're gonna say you don't read the sources like we do we read

59:15

Muller you don't we're smarter than you And so just get in line and believe we have to say the problem is that's just not true

59:24

We do read the sources and what's amazing to me in this entire conversation Is there was no emphasis upon the fact that the fundamental driving force, especially in Calvin But in all of the

59:34

Reformers in regards to the reforming impulse was not medieval Scholasticism, it was not the early church fathers.

59:42

It was scripture That is not a part of their emphasis it is not a part of their emphasis and that is frightening to me and This is one of the things that concerns me tremendously

59:57

They subjugate the fathers to a scriptural standard

01:00:02

They subjugate the schoolmen to a scriptural standard. They subjugate medieval theology to a scriptural standard

01:00:12

And that's not even questionable But you're listening to what they're saying right here, and that's not what you're hearing

01:00:18

You're not hearing that from them And that just That was all the way through this and it was it was a sad thing to be listening to Only a few more sections here, and then we'll we'll be moving on It's very much an

01:00:35

Anabaptist kind of narrative in many ways I mean we did have these as you pointed to with Karlstadt we did have these characters in the

01:00:44

Reformation who repudiated Tradition as a whole even as a concept and they were disastrous in the end

01:00:53

Theologically within a generation there is nothing of orthodoxy Left among these groups.

01:00:59

It always strikes me as odd I've been being in a faculty discussion at another place where I worked many years ago and a colleague raising the question has anybody ever wrestled with these

01:01:11

Texts in the Old Testament to talk about God changing his mind okay, now I'm gonna continue that quotation, but I I don't know that I could not hide my shock and dismay if I were to be in a staff meeting if I were

01:01:34

I cannot imagine Being in a staff meeting at GBTS and having a fellow

01:01:45

Staff member a fellow professor a fellow teacher go has anyone ever dealt with these texts?

01:01:53

about God changing his mind I'm just like You don't know what nakam means if You've if you've done any kind of ministry in the church if you've done any kind of apologetic ministry

01:02:09

With Mormons, for example, they raise this issue all the time with open theists

01:02:15

I don't know how anybody can be actively involved in doing any kind of evangelism and apologetics and Have already had to deal with this issue

01:02:28

Repetitively so I'm just like here again is a situation where you're like That seems awfully strange to me.

01:02:40

It seems awfully weird to me But don't you think that's a comment on that particular individual are you now gonna associate people with that kind of an attitude and it's a sort of Well, yes

01:02:59

For many centuries and they're well aware that Philippians 2 didn't appear yesterday

01:03:07

Okay, what's that do with Philippians 2 once again on the credo podcast popular

01:03:15

Baptist speaker Philippians 2 What is this about? What does that have to do with someone who clearly

01:03:24

Has not done their biblical homework doesn't know what the original language

01:03:32

Terminology is I mean I the calm came

01:03:37

Top my head. I mean, that's just how often I've had to deal with this particular situation This particular issue.

01:03:43

So what does that have to Philippians 2? Well, you know the church is that okay.

01:03:48

Are you saying that there is an ecclesiastical? Ecclesiastical interpretation of Philippians chapter 2 when was it given and who gave it what council did it?

01:03:59

That's what I'd like to know what council gave it it's one thing to say

01:04:04

Well, there is there there are general realities that have been accepted Regarding the deity of Christ and think that okay fine

01:04:15

When when was there an infallible definition of Philippians chapter 2 provided who gave it because I've read a lot of interpretations of the

01:04:26

Carmen Christi and My general experience Especially reading in the early church is that you will find gems of insight but you're gonna have to brush away a lot of The incredibly negative influence of origin and so, you know, there's the ancient

01:04:50

Christian commentary set and you know, we bought that for me when it first came out in print and I have it electronically on computers on my phone and I often will

01:05:05

Look at the commentary for a particular passage and My general experience is that you will find

01:05:18

Places where Writers throughout church history hit upon key issues

01:05:26

Did so accurately But very often up to the time of the Reformation they would go off on tangents that have

01:05:40

Nothing directly to do with the text itself. I mean Thomas is a real example of that kind of stuff

01:05:45

He does it all the time and those are negative influences.

01:05:50

Am I somehow bound by them? By the fact that there's been 1 ,500 years of that Am I am

01:05:58

I bound in my reading of Philippians chapter 2 to that? These are all questions that everybody has to answer and just throwing out vague statements and not being specific

01:06:11

Does not help anyone in in any way Thoughts about it commented on in the past So, yeah,

01:06:22

I think there's a couple of issues going on there Carl one is We Well here at my institution.

01:06:31

We love to say we're for the church and I always tell students you realize that doesn't mean merely your

01:06:39

Particular church right now in the 21st century to if you really want to be for the church

01:06:44

Then you need to be reading the Bible with the church Reading the

01:06:50

Bible with the church. Okay. Once again, there is a

01:07:00

Understandable utilization of that kind of language the idea of Reinventing the wheel the idea that the

01:07:11

Spirit of God has not been active in history is clearly in error at the same time on the other hand you go

01:07:23

I've read the documents of Vatican 2 and that's a Vatican 2 statement That these scriptures are only to be read within the sacred tradition of the church

01:07:33

Remember in Roman Catholicism sacred edition is a capital s capital T Scripture is written tradition along with oral tradition and they have the teaching the magisterium of the church and this is a bundle this is a package and so you are warned in the pages of Vatican 2

01:07:53

The only way to read sacred scripture is within the church So there's one side and then the other side

01:08:01

It's you and your Bible out under the the trees and you will get to see things that no one has never seen before and again

01:08:10

Meaningful reformed hermeneutics Will keep you from either one from either extreme as long as we keep people from getting into the idea of Well, you know the great tradition now becomes the hermeneutical lens that we're supposed to use and all the rest of that kind of that kind of stuff

01:08:35

So once again, you have this, you know this group being identified out there someplace But what exactly they believe and where exactly they've stated it.

01:08:46

Nobody knows I Think sometimes we think we're just being biblical but actually we sound more like Enlightenment Individuals As if we read the

01:08:58

Bible by ourselves Reformers that would have been so strange to them They are reading the

01:09:03

Bible with the Church Catholic the Church Universal So that as they yes, they are appealing the

01:09:08

Bible as their final court of appeal because it alone is inspired by God But Heiko Obermann makes this great point where he says they are then

01:09:16

Secondarily looking to tradition as something that's instrumental so that they have this living active conversation with the tradition

01:09:24

To understand the text in the right and proper way so that they don't you know

01:09:30

Go off the rails so so What do you do

01:09:39

When you encounter a noble early church writer

01:09:47

Who simply completely bombs a text or can you even know? What's the standard?

01:09:58

We could we could come up with all sorts of texts different and challenging texts

01:10:05

The use of the term all in Colossians chapter 1 after the creative creation portion

01:10:11

Where Christ is said to be the creator of all things visible and invisible principality smilers for minions authorities all things created by him before him

01:10:18

He's before all things on him only Co exist they hold together.

01:10:23

But then after that you have redemption language and I could

01:10:30

I imagine we could probably find 20 different interpretations What that's supposed to mean by some of the what we would consider to be the best most insightful widely read

01:10:44

Early church fathers in the first 600 years. What do you do then? What's your standard?

01:10:54

Do we not start with grammatical historical interpretation and Then analyze what someone has said and recognize that every single person in history is influenced by the controversies of their days

01:11:15

Augustine's influenced by key controversies the Donatus controversy the

01:11:20

Pelagian controversy Great the Gregory's Basil they have their own

01:11:27

Spins and twists because of what's going on and in their particular context Chris system and his own

01:11:33

It's got all sorts of political stuff going on Do we take any of that into consideration?

01:11:41

These are important questions and a lot of us on this side think about If you listen to the other side you would think that we've never even thought about it, but but we actually

01:11:57

You know Matthew and you're well aware of this you and some of the others who've really been helping both

01:12:03

Baptists and Presbyterians and reformed and reformed Anglican folks to think through and appreciate this project of theological retrieval

01:12:12

You guys have also been attacked in places like social media I've seen your name thrown out there, and I I know you had have no idea the source of it

01:12:22

But you know as as leading people to Rome this whole project is gonna lead people

01:12:29

To to Rome and Now again, it's sort of hard not to conclude that that's

01:12:39

Directly in reference to myself I cannot help but think that a memo went out and Somebody didn't listen carefully didn't listen close.

01:12:53

It didn't want to listen carefully or closely and Hence you just have this basic if you talk about this stuff

01:13:00

Everyone's gonna go to Rome and anyone who's listened to I know knows that's desperately dishonest Desperately dishonest.

01:13:07

I I just do not understand how pastors Reformed men can miss the issue.

01:13:14

Maybe again. Maybe they don't talk to the people that are converting Maybe they didn't talk to the young man who was

01:13:20

Michael Barrett student. It became Roman Catholic just a few weeks ago And maybe they haven't listened to his testimony and the view of patristics and everything that went with it

01:13:30

Maybe they maybe they just stay out of that stuff. Maybe I I don't know but if you're serious about this stuff

01:13:41

Then you have to know you just have to know What I'm actually talking about in regards to ultimate authorities sola scriptura relationship to tradition the ultimacy of the apostolic message

01:13:59

Over against a development of an apostolic tradition you have to you have to recognize stuff

01:14:06

This next section is important. I I'm looking at the time here And I have not received any

01:14:15

Material from rich I I assume that he is probably falling asleep And you know, he may he may have to Leave I know he has something to do this afternoon

01:14:29

But it says we have an excellent stream I'm gonna try to press through here.

01:14:34

I mean, it's I'm actually have to turn the the AC down a little bit because the the Sun's getting over to a spot where it's

01:14:42

Warming me up a little bit in here But I'm gonna go ahead and press through it's gonna be a long one and it may be the longest program

01:14:50

We ended up doing end up doing in the studio up to this particular point in time but There we go, let's just a little bit of air movement itself will

01:15:04

Make make all the difference in the world if I can get the Bluetooth to actually accept the commands and Now I can go

01:15:17

You know as long as you're not sweating yourself to death. You can you can you can make it through so we'll we'll press on here

01:15:24

Okay, this next section from Matthew Barrett. I think it's very important It'll be

01:15:30

I want to invite everybody to listen carefully to what you say Notice the difference to how we do this. We're not I'm not doing something about nameless faceless people people

01:15:37

I'm letting them speak for themselves I'm giving their names and and I'm letting and I'm letting you hear them and I'm saying to listen to what they're saying

01:15:45

Think this through It's the only way to actually accomplish anything In in the long run.

01:15:51

So listen what he says here because he's gonna say no this isn't This doesn't lead anybody to Rome.

01:15:57

Listen to the why and listen for this Fundamentally and again,

01:16:04

I Have a lot more experience in this particular area than he does Fundamentally you will not hear him give the answer that I give on this topic and The question that should be helpful to all of us is why and what is the difference?

01:16:23

So listen listen to this section You know, my sense of this is actually just the opposite because actually evangelicals have already been fleeing to Rome and I think a

01:16:36

Big reason for that is precisely because The okay, actually this is

01:16:43

Todd Pruitt, I'm sorry the untethered from history Evangelicalism that they've been raised in Did not give them a sense of connectedness

01:16:54

Reverence. I mean you have young people going, you know, I'm a part of a church that what is a hundred years old

01:17:00

You know and I've got this friend of mine who's Eastern Orthodox and there or Roman Catholic and they're in a church That's 2 ,000 years old

01:17:06

And so you have these these evangelicals who and Carl and I've talked about this on the program before Who have flooded into Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism not because somebody not because they heard

01:17:19

You know classical theism those undomesticated doctrines of God's preached but because they didn't

01:17:26

Not not because they had good instruction that showed them that we are

01:17:32

We are proper inheritors of the first five centuries, but because they never even heard anything from the first five centuries mentioned

01:17:40

Okay, that was Todd Pruitt not Matthew Barrett. Apologies, but it's still very important.

01:17:46

Very very important Is that why people convert well, there is no question that there is a

01:17:57

Longing For the ancient church standing in the mists of time and you know the tooth that the 2 ,000 year thing

01:18:04

Yeah, that's what both the Orthodox and Roman Catholics claim. It's laughably untrue

01:18:11

The Orthodox are giving us the traditional worship and beliefs primarily of the 6th and 7th centuries

01:18:20

There's been some Modification of that. I mean, I I don't know that the people at that time period would have had the kind of developed

01:18:29

Doctrine of inner Gaia that you have within Eastern Orthodoxy today or stuff like that, but you're still talking about Centuries.

01:18:38

Sorry about that. So the Roman Catholics they make their claim to be 2 ,000 years old We know there's been so much development, you know, they've defined as dogma things that no one in the first in the early church had any

01:18:50

Belief whatsoever in regarding bodily assumption and immaculate conception and all that kind of stuff, so we know all that kind of stuff isn't true, but What is that the fundamental issue in why people convert it's not because they weren't given some kind of Classical theology with quotes from the first five centuries of the church.

01:19:19

That's not why that's not why The reason they convert is because they lose confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture to communicate the gospel and how we're to worship

01:19:31

God without an external traditional source. That's why they convert That's why they convert

01:19:39

Have you ever have any of you guys read the surprised by truth books or is that beneath your classical theology?

01:19:52

Sorry, but I've been involved with this. I've seen the damage done and So to see people missing it well, maybe probably taking shots to my direction at the same time

01:20:07

Yeah, okay, whatever you guys say You know if you were to ask what tips them over Straw that breaks the camel's back.

01:20:19

It's when they then see Certain radicals today that look a lot like radicals in the 16th century

01:20:26

Right that then verified their worst nightmares their worst fears that oh, maybe

01:20:33

Exoticism actually doesn't have roots. Maybe process. It's not Inherently connected in spirit to the church universal and then they see those terrible caricatures, but it won't be nearly as good

01:20:45

Because I played what was being stated about why these people are converting and Here reform men are missing the key issue

01:20:58

These people are not converting Because they didn't get sermons based upon the

01:21:06

Patristic interpretation of passages from the first five centuries. That's not why they convert They convert because they lose

01:21:15

Commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture and are convinced that Scripture needs something an authority outside To interpret it.

01:21:26

And so here you have reformed men reformed men and instead of giving a

01:21:34

Meaningful answer are basically saying well actually, you know

01:21:40

We've got this stuff from the first five centuries and Anyone who's read it knows that there's all sorts of different streams and perspectives and understandings

01:21:50

Expressed in this material and we just need to be preaching that more they need more classical theology

01:21:56

That's not why any person I've ever met the converted ever converted not for a second Not for a second.

01:22:02

Have any of these guys even read the surprise by truth series doesn't seem to me that they did Doesn't seem to me that they did so Very troubling one more quote.

01:22:13

Hopefully I'll get this one, right? I've gotten all the rest of them But that was the first time that everything blew up need to find a different way of me being able to hear stuff

01:22:22

Because that's gonna that's gonna happen again in the future. I Mean, I don't necessarily blame them for feeling a bit nauseated

01:22:30

Absolutely, and then they just give up at that point. And so what I always say to them is

01:22:36

Don't pay attention to the caricatures Those are our sloppy misrepresentations of Protestant isms

01:22:44

Protestantism they are radicalizations of Otherwise good principles.

01:22:50

Yeah instead go back to actually history itself and look look at what say the reform

01:22:55

Scholastics, for example, look at how they went about their theology. Not only was it incredibly robust But it was inherently

01:23:05

Making the claim that they were say Augustinian or in some cases they were even

01:23:12

Refining and transforming Thomism for the sake of arguing against the Arminians and Sicilians right just countless examples of this

01:23:20

So there you go. There's there's the reasoning Oh, they were using Thomas and had to get

01:23:26

Thomas had to get Thomas in there. Nothing about grounding people in the

01:23:33

Apostolic revelation of scripture. It's not there. It's not there. The man who wrote the book in 2016 doesn't exist anymore

01:23:41

It's like Bruce Jenner Caitlyn Jenner boom gone Astonishing astonishing troubling deeply deeply troubling

01:23:52

So There you go All right.

01:23:57

Now I have to change everything here Pull a few things off of this

01:24:03

Over here. It's interesting Matthew Barrett Posted a quote very citing

01:24:12

JV Fesco now Fesco is to the Presbyterians what Barrett is for the Baptists Okay, so Fesco is one of the people promoting the

01:24:19

Thomistic Renaissance and all that kind of fun stuff. And here's the quote this is on That Twitter Twitter or Facebook when people quote stuff it's hard hard to tell which one is

01:24:35

Matthew Barrett said we must not misunderstand or abuse post tenebrous lux

01:24:42

After darkness light says JV Fesco by tapping the sources Luther Calvin Aquinas, etc

01:24:49

We will discover that Protestants have continuity with the ancient church if you notice that all of the phrases are

01:25:00

Getting a new coating of paint It Wasn't really tenebrous.

01:25:06

It wasn't really darkness And it wasn't really light. It was uh, we uh

01:25:12

We cleaned we cleaned the lens, you know, how how your your your headlights can get that icky stuff on it and it

01:25:20

They're not as bright and sharp as it and you you buy that stuff from Acme Acme headlight cleaner 47 ,000 different types of on Amazon and And you get all that stuff off and so you can see clearly again.

01:25:37

That's what it's renewal Reformation is renewal see It's not really post tenebrous lux and it's not simple reform on death.

01:25:46

That was Bart I mean that was that was just you can throw all the the confessions out. It wasn't the church always needing to be reformed really

01:25:56

Yeah, all that 20th century stuff you're all just a bunch of idiots back then and And and some of you have gotten smart enough to realize that you were idiots back then but white he just wants to remain an idiot

01:26:07

That's what we're getting There was real meaning to post tenebrous lux. There was a real meaning to the darkness that led to indulgences the darkness that led to the papacy the darkness that led to the

01:26:20

Illiteracy of the of the of the people of the Word of God there was darkness Beware of people who will tell you yeah, it really wasn't that dark.

01:26:31

They may be moving you back into the dark That might be a real possibility might be a real possibility

01:26:40

Okay now totally totally completely 1 ,000 % shifting gears

01:26:50

Um and I hope this I hope this this works for us here Well, yeah that that should work unless I have to go over to Something else

01:27:05

I don't think I'm gonna be playing any sound out of this so I don't need to have That on so let's see what this looks like Um Yeah, all right

01:27:18

Dale Tuggy's Challenge the unbiblical nature of Unitarianism demonstrated. So Totally shifting gears.

01:27:25

I've been sitting here for quite some time, but I'm still energetic. Um and We will

01:27:30

I think it would be wise if we because like I said, we're gonna have to edit that section out. Just sorry

01:27:35

I that's just that's gonna be necessary. I have to do it. I'll do it. Um but Probably need to put a link into the description to this section because we're an hour and a half in already and We want people to be able to come to this

01:27:51

I got I got so many I got so many positive comments after the last program when we spent time going into Ignatius and into various biblical passages and things like that Got a lot of real positive

01:28:07

Commentary from folks and that's why I took the time to put this together

01:28:14

Where we have what happened was Dale Tuggy amongst various sundry other attacks on on Twitter and Condescending comments things like that Basically said

01:28:30

I shouldn't be taken seriously Until I can identify which of these

01:28:39

Statements are Untrue and there was a link given to an article and here's here's where the argument here's where the challenge is laid out

01:28:46

Okay, so this is This is what I would identify as sophistry full -on sophistry

01:28:57

But let's take a look at it Here's here's the argument Number one God and Jesus differ number two things that differ are two i .e.

01:29:07

Are not numerically identical Three therefore God and Jesus are two not numerically identical

01:29:13

For any X and Y X and Y are the same God only if X and Y are not two i .e.

01:29:19

Are numerically identical Therefore God and Jesus are not the same God Number six there is only one

01:29:26

God number seven therefore either God is not a God or Jesus is not a God Number eight therefore

01:29:31

Jesus is not a God so here is your Argumentation from Dale Tuggy This might actually work all right, so let's

01:29:49

Let's walk through this number one God and Jesus differ Well immediately, please recognize that the statement assumes

01:29:59

The final goal of this argument the final goal of Unitarianism by confusing terms and you will find this with Tuggy all the time

01:30:09

Unitarians demand that God equals the father alone only always so If you want to be biblically accurate if you wanted to be honest with the

01:30:24

New Testament what you would say is The father and the son are

01:30:30

Distinguished from one another that would be a true statement But by saying God and Jesus differ you are importing your conclusions into your argument to begin with you're not

01:30:40

Deriving them from the New Testament. And that's what that's what the real problem with with philosophers who pretend to do theology is is in philosophy you can

01:30:52

Spin your argument depending upon the definitional range semantic range of the

01:30:58

Propositions that you give If they couldn't do that, they wouldn't have anything to be doing all day long

01:31:05

Nothing to be publishing and everything else so sense but but if you're being serious with the

01:31:15

Bible if if scripture is your your authority then you're going to start with the definitions provided here and Not some type of philosophical

01:31:29

Stuff that you come up with from another another direction, and by the way If you're if you're wondering, yes, we we do we do know what dr.

01:31:39

Tuggy is talking about and we'll utilize those sources as Our analysis goes on.

01:31:46

So since the Trinity differentiates between father Son and spirit.

01:31:52

This is a given But the distinction is in person not in being and that will not even appear in this argument

01:32:01

That will not even appear in the argument, which is what causes the problem.

01:32:07

So Consider this statement the Father and the Lord differ

01:32:14

Since kurios is normally used of the Sun in the New Testament and is the septuagint rendering of Yahweh the very covenant name of God would this statement be relevant and Lead to a denial that the

01:32:28

Father is Yahweh or God in the fullest sense Such would be absurd biblically, of course, but that's the point

01:32:37

Sophistry like this is too simplistic To deal with the breadth and depth of biblical revelation

01:32:44

So always be careful when you run into folks that are using this kind of stuff. Let's Press forward

01:32:53

There we go number two things which differ are

01:32:59

Two ie are not numerically identical Well insofar as this is stated about the

01:33:04

Father and the Son as divine persons, of course They are not numerically identical as persons

01:33:12

But this is not a denial that the infinite unlimited being of God Cannot be said to be shared fully by the

01:33:20

Father and the Son So again, it doesn't allow for the distinction that is forced upon us by the biblical revelation of one

01:33:28

God and then the Identification of three persons who are distinguished from one another as that one

01:33:34

God. That's why Unitarians have to Deny the Jesus identified as Yahweh in the same way as the

01:33:41

Father Deny the Texts on the deity of Christ and they come up with various ways of doing so but they're inconsistent in how they do so And then they fall back on argumentation like this to get around that number three.

01:33:55

Therefore God and Jesus are two not numerically identical and so the correction to this would be

01:34:03

Correction the Father and Son are two persons Basic Trinitarian assertion basic biblical revelation contra modalism and oneness so modalism and oneness do experience confusion at this particular point

01:34:22

So for any X and Y X and Y are the same

01:34:27

God only if X and Y are not two ie are numerically identical This is again basic confusion categories

01:34:34

This is an assertion the being of God cannot Be shared by two distinct persons since the argument isn't allowing that category then it is smuggling in an assertion illegitimately

01:34:51

No foundation is given for this assertion Nor does this follow from what came before?

01:34:57

Since what came before does not differentiate between being in person Hence this is a false assertion that the father cannot be identified as Yahweh when the son is identified as Yahweh as well

01:35:06

That's the biblical reality. And again if sophistry is not our foundation but biblical revelation is

01:35:13

Then we clearly recognize this the error of this kind of thinking since both the father and son are identified as Yahweh in the

01:35:21

New Testament This is contradicted by clear and compelling biblical evidence and hence is a false assertion

01:35:27

Likewise there is confusion With the language same God Since this seems to assume a

01:35:35

Unitarian definition of God as well Again, no distinction between being in person being allowed in that in that context

01:35:44

Number five therefore God and Jesus are not the same God No, the father and the son are not the same person

01:35:51

But the father and son are both identified as Yahweh in Scripture and none of the confusion of categories and hidden Unitarian assumptions provided to this

01:35:58

Point can change that reality Number six. There is only one God this of course

01:36:06

Should have been the very first statement But the Trinity is based upon the biblical reality that one there is only one being of God Yahweh Number two, there are three distinct persons revealed in Scripture father son and spirit and three

01:36:19

These three persons are identified as Yahweh and are taught to be equal in power glory worship, etc basic Trinitarian teaching

01:36:30

Number seven therefore either God is not a God or Jesus is not a God the argument has of course already fallen apart, but it is useful to see the foolishness of sophistry when it is applied to scriptural revelation since there is only one

01:36:45

God then it follows that since the father is identified as Yahweh the son is identified as Yahweh and The spirit is the spirit of Yahweh that each are fully divine yet distinguishable and the doctrine of the

01:36:55

Trinity is true again, if biblical revelation was the source of Terminology and argumentation rather than something that you just try to get around God is a

01:37:08

God That's sort of given the father is divine the son is divine the spirit is divine the argument failing to necessarily distinguish between being in person and ignoring biblical revelation has collapsed into sophistic childishness finally therefore

01:37:24

Jesus is not a God It is actually embarrassing that so -called philosophers could produce this kind of confusion and such rank error in Argumentation one would think that there would be at least some recognition of the definitional control of biblical revelation and categories and Hence some recognition that scripture plainly speaks in Categories are larger broader and deeper than this foolish argument

01:37:49

But again, if your ultimate authority is in fact

01:37:56

Sophistic argumentation Then you're gonna be you're gonna be very impressed by this kind of thing

01:38:04

You shouldn't be but it should be something that most of us are able to provide a response to you need to be able to Recognize the confusion of categories of the things that are going on in the context

01:38:18

Of of that. So one other last thing to get to And Yeah, I'm gonna be

01:38:26

I'm gonna be able to keep it from becoming an entire Two hours and I do my best to get to get through this but and again, this was something that People really enjoyed and last program.

01:38:42

So I wanted to try to do this. I had a conversation with a

01:38:48

Unitarian Tuggies people are all over the place and they're they're seeing he's being tagged and so they're they're jumping in and I forget exactly how it started but we started having a conversation about Jesus being identified as Yahweh and One of the texts that I cited was the text in John 12 41 and He immediately adopted the

01:39:16

Greg Stafford form of argumentation Greg Stafford is a Unitarian a

01:39:22

Former Jehovah's Witness and I don't know what he's up to these days to be honest with you a

01:39:28

Few years after he and I debated he started a group called witnesses of y 'all once the witnesses got rid of him

01:39:34

I don't know if he's still doing that or anything. I really I really have no idea But he's a sharp guy and so He and I've told the story before I read his attempted response to the identification of Jesus as Yahweh that's found in John 12 41 in comparison with Isaiah 6 and It was his attempt to get around that that caused me to do the reading that allowed me to see where the error was and so I want to Walk you through that in the last minutes we have on the program here

01:40:22

And I really believe that this is something and And I've had many

01:40:30

Christians over the years come up to me and say, you know I listened to your presentation about John 12 41 as well as the

01:40:37

Psalm 102 25 27 Hebrews 1 10 through 12 identification People have come up to me and I I shared that with Jehovah's Witnesses.

01:40:46

They had never seen it before I Did what you said to do and give them time to think about it I didn't force them to come up with a response to it immediately and man.

01:40:55

It was really really effective. And so I really think this is Something that all believers should be prepared to do

01:41:03

Whether it's with Jehovah's Witnesses just plain old Unitarians Muslims This is valuable all along all along the route.

01:41:12

Okay, so In John chapter 12 you have the end of Jesus public ministry

01:41:19

John chapters 13 14 and 15 are Jesus personal ministry to the disciples

01:41:28

Establishment of the Last Supper Betrayal, etc, etc. John 17 high priestly prayer

01:41:33

John 18 you go into the arrest and all the rest that stuff after that and so There is a section where John Fundamentally wraps up the public ministry by by saying but though he had done so many signs and I guess

01:41:51

I can go ahead and Yeah, but though he had done so many signs let me

01:41:58

See it up on the screen ding ding and Maybe just one ding there.

01:42:04

Okay, it gives you a little more Little it easier to see on the screen But though he had done so many signs before them

01:42:10

They still were not believing in him So if the Word of Isaiah the Prophet might be fulfilled Which he spoke

01:42:16

Lord who has believed our report and to whom as the arm of the Lord been revealed This reason they could not believe for Isaiah said again

01:42:23

He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart lest they see with their eyes and understand with their heart and return and I heal

01:42:29

Them these things Isaiah said because he saw his glory and he spoke about him

01:42:34

Nevertheless many even the rulers believed in him but because the Pharisees they were not confessing him for fear

01:42:41

They would be put out of the synagogue for they love the glory of men rather than the glory of God So this is a tough section.

01:42:49

I mean you've got judgment and you've got Even though you know, it says right right here verse 37 for though he had done so many signs before them

01:43:00

Yet they still were not believing in him So it's about unbelief.

01:43:07

It's about the reasons for it. But here's the key. There are two texts That are cited here

01:43:14

The first comes from Isaiah 53 1 Lord who has believed our report and to whom as the arm of the

01:43:22

Lord been revealed and So here here's you know,

01:43:27

Lord who's who's believed us? He's talking about unbelief. They were not believing in him So the Word of Isaiah the prophet might fulfill

01:43:33

Lord who has believed For this reason they could not believe for Isaiah said again, so now we have another citation on actually an another aspect of this issue and that is the

01:43:52

Reason they could not was because there was a judgment Coming upon them and the quotations not from Isaiah 53, but from Isaiah 6

01:44:02

Isaiah's temple vision when he is made a prophet He is established as a prophet.

01:44:08

He is blind in their eyes and he hardened their heart let's say see with their eyes and understand with their heart and return and I heal them and Then you have

01:44:17

John 12 41 this statement these things Isaiah said

01:44:23

Because he saw his glory and he spoke about him. Okay, here's the

01:44:29

Greek Of Tauta I've been Isaiah's Hottie, I didn't tame

01:44:35

Doc's on out to Kai Alala son Perry out to these things as they said because I didn't tame

01:44:42

Doc's on out to he saw his glory and a

01:44:49

Lala son Perry out to he spoke concerning him But now please notice in the

01:44:56

Greek nevertheless Many even of the rulers the archontone were believing no, this is heiress which in John is

01:45:10

Important ice out on in him. Okay, so we have out to out to out on I'm not familiar with Greek.

01:45:17

Those are just simply different Cases the same word

01:45:25

It's the same him Why is that important because these things

01:45:30

Isaiah said because he saw his glory and he spoke about him these things

01:45:36

Isaiah said well the immediate preceding context is the citation from the

01:45:41

Greek Septuagint of Isaiah chapter 6 and in Isaiah 6 who does

01:45:50

Isaiah see I saw the Lord lofty and lifted up sitting upon throne The train of his robes filling the temple

01:45:55

You've got the the cherubim and the seraphim the angels worshiping a holy holy holy is Yahweh of hosts

01:46:02

It's the temple vision. And so the natural reading would be

01:46:09

That Isaiah sees Yahweh now in Isaiah 6 1 it's Adonai But then when he's addressed, it's

01:46:16

Yahweh Yahweh is upon his throne it's being worshipped by the angelic host and Then he commissions

01:46:23

I Isaiah and then tells I you know, how long Oh Lord and then He tells them

01:46:28

I'm gonna harden their hearts and close their ears and blind their eyes and it's a judgment oracle

01:46:35

So the natural reading Would be that one says these things

01:46:40

Tauta I've been the immediate you've just finished an entire quotation from the Greek Septuagint These things

01:46:48

Isaiah said because he saw his glory and he spoke about him and we know I Saw the

01:46:54

Lord there it is well Greg Stafford Came up with another way of with a way around this he said well

01:47:05

But you see there's a preceding and the guy in Twitter did the same thing. There's a preceding

01:47:12

Um Section from Isaiah 53 and we can say that Isaiah 53

01:47:18

I'm an Suffering servant. It's a fantastic passage Revealed the glory of the

01:47:24

Messiah and that's what John 12 41 is about well There's no question that Isaiah 53

01:47:34

Reveals the glorious work of the Messiah, but it's by his rejection of his people Nowhere in Isaiah 53

01:47:43

Does it say that anyone saw glory? It's just not there So you have to read into it.

01:47:50

Well, but what he did his his self -giving is glorious and people gonna see it

01:47:56

And so that's the seeing of the glory That's a super stretch That's a that's a massive stretch

01:48:03

You're trying to get around something But it was when I started looking at the underlying text

01:48:10

That's when I discovered something again. Those of you who've listened to my Tet my sermon at G3 you've already

01:48:24

You are knew how to answer this at least you better know how to answer it. Oh, come on.

01:48:31

I Accordance needs a better All right, I S a could you just guess it?

01:48:41

Thank you. All right Of course needs a better verse entry system. It really really does

01:48:47

That's the only thing about the program that drives me just a little bit on the buggy side Okay, here's

01:48:52

Isaiah 6 1 and you already know where this is where this is going But for those that not in the year of King Uzziah is death

01:49:01

I'm gonna get myself out of here because you need to see all of this In the year of King Uzziah is death

01:49:08

I saw the Lord sitting on a throne high lifted up and the train of his robe was filling the temple now That's what you have in the

01:49:16

Greek Septuagint so the temple Hey call This is the

01:49:22

Greek Septuagint over here Ha oikos is the the the house and so you have the train of his robe

01:49:31

But if you're looking at the Greek Septuagint, which of course Was the

01:49:37

Bible of the early church? Which of course anyone reading John? If they looked up John's reference to Isaiah 6, what would they see?

01:49:47

There's a textual variant Instead of the train of his robe was filling the temple you have

01:49:53

Kai play race hot oikos taste Doc's face out to glory and The house was full of his glory

01:50:09

So here you have I done. I Saw Tom Corian and when he's described when he describes what he's seen the house the temple is

01:50:24

Being filled or is full of what? his glory

01:50:30

Which you go back to John 12 41 and what do you have?

01:50:37

I didn't tame Doc's on out. Ooh, he saw his glory anybody at all reading the

01:50:51

Greek Septuagint and reading what John said would go There it is

01:50:57

That's what he's talking about Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and he spoke about him

01:51:03

It's exactly the Greek Septuagint says at Isaiah 6 1 and who's the one who speaks in Isaiah 6?

01:51:09

It's Yahweh He's won the throne He's the one whose glory

01:51:15

Isaiah saw so if you ask Isaiah whose glory to see I saw Yahweh's glory if you ask John whose glory did did

01:51:21

Isaiah see John's answer is Jesus and Unitarians will stand their heads.

01:51:30

They'll spin around But they can't get away from what the text actually

01:51:37

Says Jesus identified as Yahweh in John 12 41

01:51:44

If you will allow the text to speak for itself But a lot of people are not willing to do that.

01:51:51

That is of course a problem Okay, we almost went to full hours we almost went to full hours and If I need to do the editing

01:52:01

I can try to do it on my end and and go from there So it'll actually be a little bit less it will lose about two minutes but came pretty close to a mega edition of the dividing line from the mobile studio and Other than that one little oops, everything else

01:52:18

I think went really really well and so Really invested a lot of time in putting this together for you because I really felt that these issues

01:52:30

Are some of the most important issues that we can touch on and isn't it weird? I Don't I don't know how my

01:52:39

Thomistic brothers would respond to the Dale Tuggies the world, but I don't think they'd respond the same way that we did and my argument is

01:52:49

Go to the text Christ sheep need to hear his voice Not mediated by some kind of developed tradition

01:52:59

But as given by the Spirit of God, that's um That's That's that's the important part.

01:53:07

That's the important part Okay Rich is sending me stuff that I have no idea what it means.

01:53:13

So we'll have to talk about that later on But we're done with the program. We will be back again Lord willing on Thursday with more of this kind of stuff.

01:53:23

Thank you very much for watching today and for putting up with my Making mistakes and things like that bink

01:53:33

Seeing me do stuff like that Bring up the music. Let's get out of here.