Is Christmas a Pagan Holiday?

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So I mean, I think these times of feasting celebration gift giving that's I mean there's biblical precedent for that I don't think you have to apologize for that.

00:08

I don't think you have to feel like you're robbing you know the starving orphans in Africa by Lavishing your kids would get

00:20

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01:48

Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask where your host

01:55

Harrison Kerrigan pastor Tim Mullett and today. We'll answer the age -old question is Christmas a pagan holiday now

02:02

Tim This is one of those topics that always comes up around Christmas time And I see this

02:08

I see this talked about all the time. It's brought up a lot by atheists You know at least as far as I've seen which

02:16

I've always thought it, you know is pretty curious Why they're so concerned about the origins of Christmas, but then

02:24

I also I have seen some Christians out there as well bringing up concerns over, you know, the origins of The Christmas holiday, so what what's the deal with this?

02:37

Why is this such a You know, why is this brought up every year? And why does it seem like there there's just so much confusion

02:44

Around this the origins of this holiday in general Yeah, I mean, I think there's obviously a lot of things that are going on that are conspiring to create a situation where you know

02:54

People are gonna argue about this one, but you know, it's it's obviously kind of difficult to know where to even begin

03:02

Trying to address some of that because I mean, there's just concerns that people have in different directions So I mean when you look at Christmas, obviously, there's a materialism kind of element to it all and it's been turned into In some ways it's kind of like a pagan holiday even now, you know, so it's a holiday.

03:21

That's supposed to be devoted to Celebrating the birth of Christ, but then you know for the standard

03:27

The person living in America This is a time when Santa Claus comes and brings presents to people and you know

03:33

So you have like the Santa Claus kind of mythology that is feeding into the celebration Then you have just the idea that this is a time filled with a rampant, you know materialism and so you have a lot of people who have their white guilt in their

03:47

Their white guilt showing Moments where if they give their kids like presents they're somehow taking like they're robbing like a

03:56

You know one of those orphans that Sarah McLachlan is singing about in Africa or something like that So I guess just tragic.

04:04

Yep. Yeah, you can you can imagine what I'm talking about there But you know, so this is a time where in general people people are conflicted about it along those lines

04:13

Okay, so yeah meaning like it's just Rudolph Santa elves, you know, there's just there's substantial part portions of this that have just become commercialized and So you have something that's supposed to be about Christ and then you have all this other

04:28

You know pagan superstition rituals that are being put into that So people are interacting with it along those lines and then you have like you have

04:36

Christians who are interacting with Christmas Not really sure about its origin so much.

04:42

So what they're doing is they're basically looking at Christmas and they're saying hey You know one is this like a

04:48

Roman Catholic thing, right? Yeah, that would be just the simplistic way of putting their argument

04:54

Oh that this was just a Catholic celebration and we're Protestants and so therefore we don't want anything to do with it so you have that kind of person then you have like The individuals who are saying hey, this was one of those things who were

05:09

Christians Tried to whitewash Pagan celebrations essentially. So so in general,

05:16

I mean you had different Roman pagan festivals Like I think it's called

05:21

Saturn Nali and soul Invictus essentially. So you have these kind of pagan Celebrations that seem to be happening at that time and maybe this was one of those

05:30

Christians Whitewashing those things trying to Christianize them or whatever So take the pagan thing and turn it into a

05:37

Christian thing And so people don't know really know how to process that is that what happened? And then on the other side of that then you have

05:44

Christians who are arguing that no, I mean actually this is this this celebration is

05:50

Supposed to be where people like nine months after where people legitimately thought Christ was born, right?

05:56

So you have a is this when Christ was born kind of discussion this live in this as well

06:02

And so but then a lot of people think hey, yeah No, he was born March 25th, and this is nine months after that.

06:08

So yeah, so you have that he was he He was born nine months and meaning meaning in December, right what's that He was he was conceived and then born nine months later.

06:21

Yeah. Yeah meeting December Yeah, so he's born nine months after the conception. Well, I'm not sure what I said there Yeah, but yeah, so some people think that like essentially so some people are saying hey that's accurate history like the timetable around it and then and then you have like the

06:36

King James only kind of person who is Looking in the Old Testament not really understand the context and saying hey, look at that.

06:43

They cut down a tree They made an idol that sounds like Christmas trees or something like that, right? So isn't that what we're doing?

06:49

They took the idol and then they decorated it Aren't we not really that we're not realizing that was about idols that that's not about Christmas trees

06:56

So well, I tell you what I did not expect KJV only to be brought up in this discussion

07:03

Well, you have a lot of KJV only people who are Rejecting it because they're looking at a passage in the

07:09

Old Testament that talks about Cutting down a tree and building an idol and they they think that's about Christmas trees, right?

07:16

Yeah, so I get a man I guess it seems like I guess we've got our work cut out for us in terms of things that we need to talk about So I why don't we start with the with the the pagan side side of things meaning, you know

07:31

There's a lot of people Atheists and Christians who who all say that hey this holiday

07:39

You know to put it in your words This holiday has essentially been whitewashed by Christianity.

07:46

You know, it's it's been taken from the pagans adopted by Christians and You know converted into a totally

07:56

Christian holiday. So I mean Is that you know, I guess the big question is just is that true

08:04

You know, I don't know how much of the history we need to dive in on all of that but the the underlying question underneath it all is just is

08:13

That actually what happened. Is that how we got Christmas or no?

08:19

Well, that's where the debate is And so I mean you every Christmas you're gonna find, you know Half the articles that come out are saying that this is a white.

08:25

This is a Christian a celebration And then you're gonna have like a series of Arguments that are being put forward why that's either okay or wrong, right?

08:32

So half of the arguments are gonna say that and then the other half the arguments are gonna say no This is actually when he was born and then this was like a uniquely

08:39

Christian, you know celebration at that point And I just say hey, I don't know I wasn't there It's been a while 2 ,000 years to figure

08:53

I'm not a Christmas scholar, you know Admit my limitations here as far as that center, but I mean,

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I think I don't know there's a case I've listened to both sides of the cases and I would just say

09:06

I mean I've listened to both cases and I don't know how to I Don't know how to distinguish between the two.

09:11

I I guess I guess the follow -up question to that would be then. Okay. Well, you know

09:18

Either way doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah So and I think that's the better way to go like to try to answer this kind of question is to is to say hey well,

09:26

I mean, maybe we won't nail down the history precisely and Maybe we don't have the information, you know, these are distant events

09:34

But then certainly like one of the things you have to do is you have to judge what it is at the moment, right? so when you're kind of like part of what's happening is you have

09:44

Individuals committing, you know something akin to the fallacy of origin or something like that And so like you have individuals who are looking at this thing and they're saying they're trying to draw like this dark

09:55

Line back to some kind of pagan thing and then they're trying to say hey the thing is fundamentally tainted

10:00

Based on some kind of origin suspicious in that way and and I would just say that that's just a pretty

10:10

Unclear line of moral reasoning Basically, so like what do you mean?

10:15

Well, what I mean is just to say that like just you look at what Christmas is right now What you should be doing is you should be judging it on the basis of what it is for the most part, right?

10:24

so thinking about what we're intending to do right now and what we're trying to accomplish and then

10:30

You know trying to draw some like dark line back to some sort of suspected pagan origin

10:37

Like in some sense, I mean, it's just entirely neither here nor there like it doesn't even matter how it started you know if it started that way and There's people who debate it and both sides

10:46

Whatever the case is. I mean like it doesn't it doesn't even really matter now I mean like the

10:51

Christian nationals kind of folks they would look at that and they would say hey, let's say that that was it like these were pagan celebrations and then

10:59

Christians like Took them over they would look at that and they would say hey, this isn't this is an example of Christians exercising

11:06

Dominion over the world Right. So right. This is a victory. This is a victory like we reclaimed those things for Christ or whatever like we've

11:14

Successfully like instead of like at this time gathering together to worship pagan deities we've

11:20

Decided like we've changed the culture through God's help in such a way that now Like we're you you know with Constantine taking over and everything else were predominantly

11:30

Like the the Roman Empire is declared Christian at that point and now we're gonna have new holidays that that are not gonna celebrate the pagan

11:37

Stuff they're gonna celebrate, you know Christianity and I mean that largely seems like a victory to me

11:44

When you think about it, like if that's what happened then that largely seemed like a victory and but I don't even think it's the kind of thing that you need to really

11:51

Second guess. I mean what I think largely what you should be doing is looking at hey, what are we doing in the present and it is what we're doing in the present does that honor the

11:59

Lord and You know, I mean, I think any celebration that you're ever gonna have in the history of the world

12:05

It's gonna undergo transformation and change over time, right so you can have something that starts out like Christmas right now

12:12

Whatever what it is right now. It's very different than what it started out as right It's probably gone through several different stages you're telling me they didn't have

12:20

Black Friday back then didn't have Black Friday, man. Come on, man Well, who knows we may not have that anymore because that's racist, you know, so and yeah

12:30

Yeah, I always wondered about that. Why is it gotta be black? That's really that's really stupid if you understand what it's called

12:38

Black Friday, but But I wouldn't put it past anyone.

12:44

Yeah, so I mean the Santa mythology kind of got imported in there at a certain point, right? So you have the Santa mythology you have all the reindeers and you have all that kind of stuff and so I mean, there's a lot there's a lot of changes that have happened over time and You know to the standard pagan person celebrating it definitely means a lot different things as for Christians And but I mean, you know,

13:04

I think that's a better way to have that discussion is like what are we doing right now? That's what we're doing right now. I don't know the

13:09

Lord and and you know, whether or not that was a Christian victory over a pagan society at some point in the past.

13:16

I think it's obviously irrelevant But then on the other side, I mean you do have people saying hey No, this is nine months after the conception of Christ.

13:23

And so this is accurate time and date and everything else and you know

13:28

Yeah, I think you let the historic or historians sort that one off. Sure So in terms of right now what the holiday is, would you call it a pagan holiday?

13:39

I mean for many people sure I Mean for many people what they're actually doing, you know, this is more about like Santa reindeer holidays

13:48

Charlie Brown's Christmas special, you know, whatever. I don't even know if they're watching that anymore, you know

13:53

What is that movie with story? Yeah, the one where he shoots his eye out or whatever. Yeah a Christmas story.

13:59

Yeah So, I mean, I I think that there's a lot of things that go into this right now that are certainly not making it very

14:07

Christ centered, you know, but to the extent to which like Here's the issue. I mean to the extent to which

14:12

Christians have a holiday that is nationally recognized, which is a reminder of Christ I mean, it seems like that's largely a good thing, right?

14:20

Right. It's the time. I mean, this is a time where all the you know, nominal Christian pagans will go to church For one of the two times every year, right?

14:28

Yeah They'll go they'll go to church on Christmas Eve and they'll go on Easter and I mean,

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I think that's largely a good thing I think these like I think Like I don't know what there is to complain about that.

14:40

I mean obviously like the Israelites they had Holidays like their entire year was centered around certain mandatory feasts

14:47

Which God prescribed and the thing about it is like all those feasts they centered around God's mighty acts in history, right?

14:54

Yeah, so like you think about like the Passover and you know feast of booths and all this

14:59

I mean like all these feasts are like sent all these celebrations are centered around God's mighty acts

15:06

Most specifically, you know as it corresponds to the event surrounding the Exodus and all that so I couldn't you think about what's happening in the

15:13

Old Testament the Exodus is you know, the Story of redemption in the

15:18

Old Covenant like that's the example That's like the equivalent of the cross in the New Testament, even though it's nowhere near the same

15:27

Like I mean like it is pointing to that though, right? So it's pointing to that climactic act of redemption in the

15:34

New Covenant where Jesus comes and dies on the cross Like so he's born he dies on the cross.

15:39

And so I mean I think to the extent to where You have national holidays which are remembering these events like God's Climactic act of redemption in history and we're singing like you have even pagans singing

15:55

Christian songs During yeah, that's that's the that's the weird part to me is, you know, you'll walk into Like a you know, whatever, you know

16:04

Walmart or whatever store you're going into and you'll hear you know You'll hear a song straight up mentioned

16:12

Jesus right in there and it's like That's weird, you know

16:18

Considering the society that we live in right now. I almost wonder if people even really think about What those songs are actually talking about at this point?

16:29

I don't I don't think they do I mean, I think it's some sort of reminder, you know like I mean,

16:35

I think it's some sort of reminder that people have of Something that they're trying so hard to suppress but I mean thinking about it along those lines

16:43

I mean like if you you have a holiday that's devoted to celebrating certain events and redemptive history

16:52

Like that's I think that's largely a good thing. And I think that what we're doing is we're Following the pattern that God set in the

16:58

Old Covenant, right? so God set the same kind of pattern under the terms of the Old Covenant where these were intended to like the

17:05

Celebrations were intended to be reminders of what God has done and there's all sorts of things I mean as you read through the

17:10

Old Testament where you're gonna find is there's all sorts of things like that So, I mean they would frequently set up monuments to remember right

17:18

God's actions for them in history, right? So you have like these monuments that they're setting up you have like these

17:24

They name places, you know centered around what God did, you know

17:29

They even named their kids, you know like that and then they would have holidays centered around that so I mean I just think that there's a lot of Like God has a lot of things prescribed in the

17:38

Old Covenant that were designed to help people remember what he has done for them And I think just how like having you know, a

17:46

Christian calendar a Christian holiday I think that's good with Christian holidays that are centering around God's acts in history

17:53

I think that's largely good Like I think that's a that has a good that has a good effect on us so far as like you as a

18:00

Christian are taking those opportunities to Think about those things, you know in a special way like that doesn't mean that you you don't think about them all the rest of the year, but then like in so far as like you're using these things as They would be as God has established in the

18:18

Old Covenant for Christians and Christians do For believers, you know to do that's

18:24

I think that's always a good thing Yeah, so yeah, so it's not it's not a bad thing just to say hey, we're going to have this regular

18:32

Christian holiday but Then do you think it do you think the way our society in general is approaching the holiday is bad?

18:43

Sure. I mean sure. I think you know as you look at our society They're obviously trying to take Christ out of Christmas as much as they possibly can but I mean it's still there and like it's still a reminder and and It's one of those things where I don't know what the solution to this is, right?

18:58

Really? I mean, this is one of those inescapable concepts I mean any culture is gonna have holidays like that's the way it works.

19:03

So they're gonna have to celebrate something So it's like what do you what do you want to happen? Do you want the temple of Satan to set up like to establish all the holidays for us?

19:12

Is that what you're really advocating is that the temple? I would I would be a hard pass on that Personally, you want them to establish all of our holidays and our holidays and our mandatory celebration

19:24

So then you get off work for you know Beelzebub Day or something like that Hey, you know and I mean you're talking about you're talking about it,

19:32

Iowa I think I guess it was the state capital of Iowa. They They allowed the satanic temple to put up a little statue worshiping

19:42

Satan and you know and like there's a bunch of of Conservatives and conservative

19:51

Christians who are Yeah, I I wouldn't necessarily say applauding it as if they're you know

19:58

Wholeheartedly in support of the satanic temple, but they're the they're they're the ones who are who are very much like freedom of religion

20:07

Let everyone You know worship who they please build the mosque for them kinds of people who are sell who are celebrating the fact that The satanic temple is allowed to put their idol up in a state

20:24

Capital building. Yeah, whoever that guy was. I can't remember who the guy was who made the post about it but then everyone was ragging him about like Allowing it or whatever and I think some lady came and you know sabotaged it or something like that and good

20:38

They should tear it down and then And then they gave me even a heart, you know a more difficult time because it was a lady

20:44

You know had the courage to do what he didn't have to do. And so he deserved it. But um, yeah

20:50

No, I don't I don't know what people want. I do you want Satan holidays? Like so I mean like the how the idea of having holidays.

20:55

It's kind of an inescapable concept every culture is gonna have days like that So do you want them to be centered around God's mighty acts in history or do you want them to be centered around?

21:04

You know just superstitious and peg, you know Pagan worship, you know worship of demons.

21:10

So I don't know what you want there So I think I mean, I think Christian at Christmas is largely a good things it's largely a good thing and You know,

21:19

I think the Christians who are reacting Against it as if that's just like a Roman Catholic thing is

21:24

I think what those Christians have just so disconnected from history to the point where they don't realize that like the true church has always existed in all times in all places and You know, so anything that happened before like two days ago.

21:38

That wasn't like just a Catholic thing So there's been a long history of things that have gone on but I mean

21:46

I think yeah in general The Bible has a lot to say about gift -giving God is a you know,

21:51

God gives us gifts that we don't deserve. He delights to give us good things You know, you even have under the

21:58

Old Covenant The Israelites were told to set aside 10 % of their income for the yearly feast in order to eat whatever they want, right?

22:07

So if they didn't they could bring like 10 % of their stuff and eat it there And if it's too long to travel convert it to money and buy whatever they want and celebrate

22:15

So, I mean, I think these times of feasting celebration gift -giving that's

22:20

I mean there's biblical precedent for that I don't think you have to apologize for that. I don't think you have to feel like you're robbing you know the starving orphans in Africa by Lavishing your kids with gifts now at the same time.

22:32

I mean like you do have to I Mean it is important. I think to put some thought into Like you don't want to go into debt to do all this stuff.

22:41

You don't don't pull out the credit cards They'll be pulling out the credit cards. Yes, don't like But I had to buy the frankincense and myrrh.

22:51

Sure. Sure. Where else was the gold gonna come from except my gold credit card? yes,

22:58

I just think that there's there's obviously principles of giving and receiving that are relevant here and Turning it into a time where you give get gifts and presents

23:07

I don't I don't think see why you even need to remotely apologize for anything along those lines

23:12

But then I think it's a you know a great time to remember what Jesus has done for us and We need more things like that and not less things like that.

23:20

So now I mean at the same time, it's like yeah, I When do we sit down and think intentionally about the you know, the incarnation in particular, right?

23:29

And so I think you know, typically we don't and and so I think yeah This is obviously a good time to think intentionally about those things.

23:37

I don't think we have to apologize for it And and that kind of leads me into the last question I had for you which is you know obviously we are faced with a society that Totally rejects

23:48

Jesus in every way and wants to try and hijack Christmas and make it something that is it's not meant to be

23:57

So what would what would your advice be to Christians, especially Christian parents? And in terms of you know, how do we how do we as much as possible?

24:09

Make the Christmas holiday time Specifically about Jesus, you know, what what are what are practical ways that we can actually

24:20

You know refocus back on Christ and and think specifically about his birth

24:29

And in the name of you know, trying to trying to fight back against society's pressures on the holiday

24:37

Yeah, I mean I think it's a society obviously has a bunch of pressure Has a bunch of pressures on it. But I mean,

24:43

I think to the extent to which you can include scripture During that time the more, you know

24:48

Bible you can get during that time the more that you're using this as a time to teach your kids about These events which are so significant to our faith.

24:57

I mean, there's a lot of I mean you can set up an advent reading schedule We're reading different passages, you know at different days and different times

25:04

We go to like the thing is I mean we have I mean, there's a lot of pagan versions of these things right to where you have like little calendars set up where Little stuff animals are moving each day closer and closer to the presence and things like that I mean you can do something similar like that with like Bible like thinking about Like here's what we're gonna be reading today like in preparation of this, you know

25:27

I set up a routine set up or you know set up routines that are centered around the Bible getting the

25:32

Bible in to your kids Head during that time and teach them about giving gifts teach them about receive how to receive gifts, right?

25:40

Teach them why teach them a theology thing. Why are we doing this? Right? What what is this about?

25:46

And so these are just natural Moments that you could bridge to talking about things that are ultimate and matter more than things that point to it and so I mean

25:55

I don't think you have to like throw the throw it all out. I think you can use it. It's a time to Enjoy being around family

26:02

Having time off work, right? Yeah, giving gifts to you. I mean it's like the holidays or some are good times

26:09

I don't think you have to like turn everything into just it needs to be like a seven day, you know

26:17

Worship service from start to finish with nothing, you know joy happening or whatever else I mean, that's not what the

26:23

Old Testament feasts were about, right? they they they were also about the stuff that our holidays are about to Which is like food and family and you know being together, you know all these things

26:34

So I I think that I think largely a lot of what we're doing is fine I guess fine and good and it serves a useful function just find out ways to point it to Jesus more than what we're doing probably

26:45

To and you know, I definitely wouldn't turn it into a time where you lie to your kids about Santa Claus or something

26:51

I Mean that's yeah If you want to shoot yourself in the foot then go for it

26:56

You know celebrate it like a good pagan and lie to your kids and teach them to lie to everyone around them But I mean,

27:02

I think like this is time about Jesus. So it's fine to make it Fine to let it be what it is, you know

27:08

Okay. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation and certainly it's good to think about these things as the holidays or You know,

27:17

I mean they're happening right now and and Christmas like we like we talked about during the episode it is certainly a time that you know society tries to It tries to focus on seemingly all the wrong things at this time of year

27:32

And and so it's good for us as Christians, especially to think through. Hey, how do we how do we intentionally go about celebrating?

27:39

this holiday and not losing sight of What it's truly about what we're actually celebrating here

27:46

So so thank you for that Tim and explaining all that and we want to thank all you guys as well out there

27:53

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