Q&A #2- 2023 Laborers' Conference

Alright guys, let's get started. Come on in and find your seat real quick. Again, I know this is something you're going to enjoy.

We've already got a couple of good questions, laborers. Already got a couple of good questions. So, so Jesse gave us a challenge today to ask questions, right?

We should ask questions. I was always raised up, ask questions, ask questions.

Sometimes it got me in trouble, but it was good, right? To ask questions. And so guys, let me find my, there it is right there.

Okay. You ready? I'm going to moderate so y 'all get in there close together.

If I need to ask a question, I will. If I need to answer, I'll jump in. All right.

So brothers, you'll turn your Bibles to Matthew chapter 12, verse 31 through 32,

Matthew chapter 12, verse 31 through 32 mentions that the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the

Holy Spirit. Can you clarify what that means? And can a genuine believer commit this sin?

Not all at once. Hold on. Smash that button on the side.

There you go. There you go. All right. Now we've got the other wireless tube here. They're not working.

They're not working. Check one, two. Okay. It died.

Yeah. Check, check. Hello.

That's better. So as to the subject matter with blasphemy in the

Holy Spirit, if we back up a few verses to verse 22, a demon possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to him being

Christ and he healed him so that the man could both speak and see. And all the crowds were astounded and said, could this be the son of David?

I wonder when the Pharisees heard this, they said, this man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, by the ruler of the demons.

Knowing their thoughts, he said, he told them every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How will this kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out?

For this reason, they will be your judges. If I drive out demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

How can someone enter a strong man's house and steal his possessions? Unless he first ties up a strong man, then he can plunder his house.

Anyone who is not with me is against me. And anyone who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.

Whoever speaks a word against the son of man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this age or the age to come.

So with the context, we have the context being that Christ was casting out demons, that he was healing the sick, and that this was discredited by the

Pharisees, that this is the work of Satan. So I would say that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit fits in that context of denying the work of the

Spirit as part of the triune God. I don't believe that a believer can blaspheme the

Spirit in this way, because no one speaking by the Spirit ever says Jesus is accursed, and no one can say

Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit. That's 1 Corinthians 12 3. Pretty solid.

Any follow -up questions or any rebuttal? It's okay.

We do this together, right? Any additions for you guys, too? We like Tyler.

Any modern -day examples of blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Well, I've come across people that say the

Holy Spirit is like the force from Star Wars, and that he's not actually a person that can be known, that he's not part of the

Trinity. He's just like the wind. Check, check.

Yes, great. There's, unfortunately, there's tons of examples.

There's many pastors that are preaching, and they not only misunderstand the attributes of God or confuse the

Godhead, but they actually blaspheme the Holy Spirit by uttering and just saying a bunch of nonsense that I won't repeat.

So, you know, pastors, like, for example, I would say, I would throw in, here's one for you,

I'll throw in Pastor Andy Stanley as a modern example of someone who blasphemes the

Holy Spirit, Mike Todd, a lot of the prosperity gospels, a lot of the non -traditional

Christians, should I say, that are blaspheming the

Holy Spirit a lot, like every Sunday, that are saying things that are contrary to God.

And unfortunately, they are protected by the law.

And unfortunately, many churches don't speak out against them enough by calling them to repentance, and as they should.

And that is detrimental to the church because they have millions of followers, you know, they have massive influence, they write books, these guys travel on pinstripe jets, some of them.

And so, yes, there's many examples of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit within the so -called church.

I think the grievousness of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is as grievous because it comes up against the

Trinity, it eats away at the very nature and character of God, does it not? Just to clarify, too, blasphemy is not the same as disobedience.

Claude, would you speak to that real quick? Could you define blasphemy? And I think we all know what disobedience is, we've committed that, right?

It's simply disobeying, knowing what you ought to do and do it not to Him, that is sin, right?

That's disobedience. What's the difference between disobedience and blasphemy? Disobedience is not doing what God commands, which is done two ways, omission and commission, right?

By not doing or by not doing what you're supposed to or doing what you're not supposed to.

Yeah, exactly. So but blasphemy is attributing to God the works of Satan.

This is exactly what the scribes and Pharisees were doing there, Jonathan. They were attributing what

God was doing. Jesus, the Son of God, they were attributing what

He was doing to Satan. And there is a converse to that blasphemy as well, attributing to God something that God is not doing.

That's right. Does that make sense to everybody? So if God's not doing it, you should attribute it to God, right?

I think that the latter part of what Brother Claude said is dangerous.

How many times have you heard somebody say, God told me this? I think that you had better be extremely careful whenever you start using that kind of language, because now you're saying that the

Almighty has said something and that should be and is the same as Scripture.

If God's speaking, it is Scripture. So, all right.

I've had that question asked me several times. The question was, if I'm worried that I've committed blasphemy of the

Holy Spirit, then that's evidence that I haven't committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Did I frame the question correctly?

I would say that I believe that to be the truth, a true statement, because that would show to me and through Scripture that your heart is at least still supple.

And it hasn't been calloused to the point where the fear of God is not in you. These people that were attributing the works of Jesus and the

Holy Spirit to Satan had no fear of God anymore, even though they claim to be the priests of God.

Anybody who would for a second consider that God in the flesh is standing in front of them, would have jerked them by the beard and smacked them in the face and said, you tell me right quick if you're really

God or not, right? So, there's no fear of God in them for shorter to even treat one of their countrymen that way, let alone somebody who they think there's a chance is divine.

Does that answer your question, brother? Yeah, I would just echo that. I think when we get to the issue of blasphemy to kind of demystify it,

I think a lot of times we're worried that we're going to slip up and blaspheme the

Holy Spirit. Okay, just make no mistake. According to Scripture, this is no like slip up.

This is no like, oops, I blaspheme the Holy Spirit and I'm going to hell for all eternity. That's not what this is. This is deliberate rebellion against the works of God.

This is Romans chapter one that they knew God, but they did not honor him as God. So therefore, then God turned them over.

And that turning over is a punitive judgment in Romans one. And so that's it. So a lot of times this is used the manipulative

Scripture to kind of create fear in people and, you know, and especially in the hyper holiness movements and those kind of things of that nature.

It was like, you better worry what you say or how you dress and what you watch and what you do. You might just accidentally blaspheme the

Holy Spirit and then whoops, it's too late for you. We believe in a sovereign God who in first Peter chapter one is able to keep you standing.

And that's why we would say that an authentic regenerate person would not ever commit this because God is able to keep them from committing that.

Does that make sense? I mean, like I like what Jesse said, Vikings, I'm going to save him, you know.

OK, you know, I mean, like he does. That's what he does. And so just make sure, you know, this is not like an oops moment.

This is a deliberate rebellion. These guys deliberately in this text, the tolerators, they were deliberately rebelling against the teachings of the work of Christ, therefore deliberately rebelling against the teachings and the works of God and rejecting the rejection of the drawing and the working of the

Holy Spirit. There's there was an outright rejection and denial of that. And so therefore, that is blasphemy.

And there is a place then the Bible says that the spirit of God will not always strive with man. He saw salt repentance with tears and bitterness and there was none to be found.

So there is this place where like it's there's there is judgment. There is punitive judgment where God has a right to say, you know, but again, it's not an oops moment.

So it makes sense, everybody. All right. Let me move this. Go ahead, Robert. You'll take one more. As quickly as I can.

I'll just tell just a little bit on that. I wouldn't finish wrestling with God until he's giving you some kind of assurance.

But the very fact that you care what God has to say is a very good sign. I mean, the scripture does say, make your calling and election.

Sure. Is God asking us to question our salvation? Well, really, only a

Christian is going to take that advice anyway, because they care about what God has to say. So you're you're in a good position if you care what

God thinks. And so. Yeah, well, one last thing.

What is the work of God in the modern day? You say, oh, what are the works of God? The fact that they're not massive demonic possessions everywhere.

That is a work of God that is pretty much already done. Like, obviously, there are some very rare occasions, very rare, but not not normal.

One of the works of God that is for sure is the Bible. The Bible was translating and preserved for thousands of years.

This Bible is true and inspired. So that is a work of God. Everything is a work of God.

What we have on our phones and our hands, like six copies at home. Right. The average American. That is a work of God.

So if somebody is coming against God and you want to be like, well, what is the work of God? Well, one of the works of God is the

Bible that you have in your hand at home. So if they're going against God, God's word, like pastors, this one pastor said, you need to unhitch from the

Bible. We're too married to the Bible. And it's like, what? No, that's Andy Stanley, by the way.

Exactly. Exactly. So they're going against the word, the word of God. That's like clear red flag.

Number one. Easy. OK, we'll move to our next question.

If you do have a question, I will be glad to come to or you can text it to me. These are questions that have been texted me.

So you have my number. You feel free to text me. I read it from here or I'll come to you and you can ask it personally.

So question number two in Ephesians chapter two. Ephesians one or two or a couple of my favorite chapters in the whole

Bible. So Ephesians chapter two, verses one through six, as Purchin says, they mentioned that you were dead, that you were dead in our sin, or we were dead in the transgressions of our sin.

But Christ made us alive. Does this regeneration.

So the question is really not whether regeneration happens or not. Does this regeneration take place before or after justification?

Go ahead. And I smile. OK, we check them out.

Roll Tide. Where are you at, dude? OK, OK, so.

That this goes to the theological term of the ordo salutis.

OK, so the order of faith. Jesse talked about Latin terms, right? Ordo salutis is the order of faith.

There are two views of the order of faith. One view says faith comes before regeneration.

And the reformed view holds to the idea that regeneration precedes faith, that it comes first, comes first.

So when we think about this, this idea, this theological concept,

I mean, in whether it's in just plain logical terms, for example, it's a it's a bad example.

Nonetheless, it is an example. Have any of you ever poked a dead person with a needle? The answer is probably no.

And if it's yes, something's wrong with you. Well, well, yes, yes, yes.

But my point is this. A dead person does not and cannot respond to external stimuli.

Right. That's what this text is talking about, that we are dead in our sins, incapable of responding to God by faith unless God first gives us life.

And that is what the term regeneration means. It is the term for the new birth, giving of new life.

So when we are made alive, according to the text here in Romans chapter two or Ephesians chapter two, then we are able to respond.

And as the text moves forward, just to read that, the continuation of that text, you were dead in the trespasses in the you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sense of disobedience, among whom we also once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and of the mind.

And we're by nature, children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ by grace.

Are you saved? And he has raised us up with him and sealed our seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ so that in the coming ages, he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace and kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

And then we have that familiar text that everybody has memorized for by grace. Are you saved through faith?

And we stop there. But wait, there's more. By grace, are you saved through faith, comma, and that not of yourselves?

We don't produce faith within ourselves. For by grace, are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves?

It in reference to faith, it is the gift of God. Faith itself is a gift of God and not a result of works, right?

It's not something that we do. It's not something we muster up within ourselves, not a result of works so that no one may boast.

Because the tendency for Christians is for us to boast in what we have done.

What have we done? It was quoted yesterday by somebody. The only thing that we contribute to the work of salvation is the sin that made it necessary, right?

That's it. So by grace, are you saved through faith? So regeneration in the order of salutis precedes, comes before faith as a necessary consequence.

All right. Ms. Noelle? The question of predestination comes up often and working with young people, it's really hard to get them to see, but what scripture can we use when they say, you know, well, if that's the case, then, you know,

God has created man to fall, you know, so then how much free will is in that and et cetera, but what scriptures or how do you guys attack that when that gets presented, not just by young people, but even adults, right?

Like, how do you do that? So she's a teacher and teaches at the

Christian school. So she gets a lot of those questions. So to frame it just a little bit, how do we address double predestination?

I think that's the first part of the question. So does God predestine people to go to hell and predestine some to go to heaven?

It's a light one. Come on, man. Correct.

Now while they're thinking, we'll give them a second to think about that. I do want to make that clear.

We don't all believe exactly the same thing. Okay. When it comes to open -handed issues,

I didn't say that very clearly. Jesse, you're the second. Dan was the first.

Jesse is the second. And I didn't tell everybody this earlier, Presbyterian to preach in this pulpit now.

Okay. All right. Been on and on that, right? Okay. Y 'all didn't know.

That's right. You didn't know. There's a third in there somewhere. Well, that's right. And Tyler.

But Tyler, you're going to non -denom church though. So you're kind of you're in that mix right now, right? Yep. They got drums at their church.

That's right. So we say that joyfully and lovingly that these issues are serious issues.

They're not heaven and hell issues. They're open -handed issues. And we have disagreement in those things.

But man, what a reunion it has been for us. I don't know if you've enjoyed the conference, but while they're still thinking on this, we have enjoyed just getting to see each other in person.

We've been doing this podcast thing for, I don't know, a couple of years now for some of you and for me a little over a year now and stuff.

And it's like, we see each other on the screen. We've never hugged each other as brothers.

We've never shook hands. We've never, you know, and just to get to be together and the fellowship has been very enriching for our souls.

And so, so again, we don't all agree on some of these open -handed issues. Okay. So even on this one specific question, there may be a difference of answers if we were to ask every person or every person gives an answer.

So just know that doesn't mean we're in disagreement with the gospel. Okay. Right. Or not.

We, we actually have statements of faith that we say that are the non -negotiables that we agree upon.

We will go to task. We will go to war together over these things.

And then in other things, we'll jab each other about like, I can't believe you baptized babies, bro. What's up with that?

You know, she's a sprinkle, you know, so no, we will, we'll jab each other on those things and, and it gets a little, you know, so, so it's it's fun.

We actually had a debate about that. Plato baptism versus cradle baptism here, here.

I don't know. It was maybe a month or two ago, something like that. So, so we want to, we won't, we're not hiding from those issues and we're not hiding that there's differences, but we hope that we're demonstrating that even amongst differences in the body of Christ, there are absolutely rock solid, close -handed biblical issues that you must believe in order to really be considered a

Christian. And then there's others that's like, you know what? That sounds weird to me, but let's talk about it.

Or they's like, well, you sound weird, John, you sound like a country boy, you know, and you know, but it all works out.

All right. So who wants to try to tackle a little of that? So let's go one question at a time. You phrased it, right?

So the first question, so I would say dealing with predestination, you help me make sure if I'm making that right.

Okay. So she gets the question a lot about predestination and basically do we believe or do is, is the reality of double predestination?

What is your perspective on double predestination? Double predestination means from the eternity past,

God predestined peace, some for hell and some for heaven. So to the, to the theological concept of double predestination, logically there has, there are two sides to a coin, right?

So when we consider the term predestination, and we're going to read a text from Ephesians as well, but when we consider the term predestination, it means to mark out beforehand.

So when we read the term predestination in the scriptures, it means to mark out beforehand, to set a course, so to speak.

Here in Ephesians, just one chapter back, chapter one, verse three, blessed be the

God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

The us is very important there. It's not everyone in general. He's speaking to believers here at Ephesus is chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

What that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, in love.

And this is important. This is important for when we consider the idea of predestination, that it's not a random or careless choosing by God, but it is based in his love for the term for knowledge itself that we read in other places is means to be foreknown or to be for loved in the old

Testament. We, we read God speaking about choosing Israel and he tells them it's not because you were bigger.

It's not because you were greater, right? It's not because you were better than anybody else, but because I have chosen to set my love on you.

Moving forward very quickly. He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

So here we still see sovereignty to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in the beloved in him.

We have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on the earth.

So the, the idea of double predestination, two -sided coin, right? There's they're saved and lost.

There's redeemed and unredeemed humanity at large, or as a whole, let me put it this way.

Humanity as a whole is lost. Wow. We're born sinners.

We're born separated from God, the miracle and the beauty and the grace and the humbling effect that predestination should have on the redeemed is this, that it's not the amazing thing about grace is that God would choose any of us, right?

So double re double reprobation can be looked at in this way. If you pictured a circle,

I can't draw stick people. I can't even make a circle with my hand. But if you were to imagine a circle being drawn on a chalkboard and you had a group of people inside this circle, election predestination is

God from all eternity choosing to set his love and his affection on individuals and not every other, not all the individuals and passing over them because the, the conviction of sin, right?

When you, when you come to a saving knowledge of Christ, the Holy spirit convicts you of your sin and you realize that you're lost, right?

Regeneration takes place. God opens your eyes. You realize you're lost and undone, right?

God draws you to himself and inevitably because God calls you, draws you. Um, I did a bad job of answering the question before I just realized that you mentioned justification.

So regeneration takes place before justification, but God regenerates, justifies, adopts the process of sanctification takes place.

Okay. But in the case of the lost, it's not God necessarily in arbitrarily being mean and say no soup for you, right?

If you watch Seinfeld, but it's God, it's God passing over, right?

It's just, for example, if you've got a, if your husbands and wives, which

Jonathan would, could anybody fault you for just choosing your wife to be your wife?

No. And if they did, who cares? Right? Cause it's your prerogative, right?

And salvation is just that it's God choosing individuals and calling them unto salvation and leaving the rest of humanity justly damned in their sin.

Let me see if I could give you a philosophical approach to this since you're a teacher, you know, um, climbing

Mount Everest is, is really high. And then Mount Everest has like four, four different base camps at different altitudes.

You know what I mean? And if you want to, if you want to look, step back from this question and just look at this, so it's kind of like, it is kind of like a

Mount Everest of a question here. Okay. And so, and if you want to just remove Christianity for one second, just remove it and just be like, what other cultures or philosophies have attempt to answer this question and climb this

Mount Everest, right? The two people that have climbed and done their best to reach the top are

Plato and Aristotle. You could throw in Socrates. Maybe they have done their best to climb.

Did they reach to the top? Absolutely not. They got to maybe to the third base, which is like 14 ,000 feet, which is half a

Mount Everest or probably less, you know, and Christianity, Paul, the apostle and others actually climb all the way to the top and reach there.

That's why R .C. Sproul says when philosophers finally make it to the top of the Mount Everest of wisdom, they will be surprised to find theologians already there.

So, so whatever straddle and Plato and Socrates attempted to answer this question is called determinism, right?

If you take your philosophy classes, they call determinism. Like everything is determined for your life.

And that's why when Aristotle wrote his state of affair book called politics, he said that people are born into slavery.

He tried to answer the slavery question. Why is slavery? He's like, well, people are just born into slavery. There's no way about that unless they purchase their way out.

But some people are born slaves and some people are born free. And he came up with this determinism.

He landed there. So by the time Augustine and Calvin comes along, they are correcting the course of philosophy and saying,

OK, they tried their very best to attempt the mystery of God. Good job.

But it's not determinism. Right. And like what he said is that it's actually everything is rooted by a motive, not this arbitrary motive of the universe.

That's invisible force or whatever that determines your lot in life. So from a philosophical point of view,

I'd like to come at it from this angle. Augustine and Calvin came at it from like God predestines people.

OK. And the audience and the scholarly mind in Europe understood determinism pretty quickly.

And if you talk to many scholars and universities, they say, oh, that's just determinism.

Actually, it's not because determinism is not rooted in a God or a person of love.

There's no love. You're born a slave. You're born a slave. Oh, well, get over it.

It's the fate of the universe. It's your lot. Calvin is like, no, God predestined

Jacob to be the heir of Israel. There's way more love and comfort in this, actually, that that the that Aristotle didn't even have access to.

Right. And by the way, where did Aristotle get it from, by the way? Did he read Moses and Jeremiah?

Right. So for resources, read the West Westminster Confession of Faith, the

Belgic, you know, continue to do your research on these resources to to help you with your journey to answer this.

So I would encourage you to read the West West, the Heidelberg, the

Belgic. They all have great summaries of this. So just read them, go back to the text.

And then when you go back to Aristotle and read that, you'll be like, wow, like that's where they get that from.

And that's why these students are coming from. That's why they're asking you that, because they're being told in public school that it doesn't matter what you do.

You're just you're just here just because someone puts you here. You know, it's an invisible force that puts you here.

So it's a fatalism and determinism, right? So, yeah, you're just animals, right?

You're just animals, like Darwin said. So that's why they're coming up with those questions, because it gets the brain going and thinking about like, whoa, is there a reason for life?

Is there a purpose? Which are existential philosophical questions, which Augustine and Calvin bat a thousand at.

So I would recommend researching and continuing your reading on that. But it's great.

One more resource would be the Synod of Dort. Look up the Synod of Dort, S -Y -N -O -D of D -O -R -D -T or the

Synod of Dortrick. They basically came up with a line by line affirmation and denial concerning predestination specifically.

Yes, sir. This. Sorry, one more. I was just going to say this is a very difficult question to articulate.

So two more words to dig into is God's decretive will and God's permissive will.

Those are two things to look into. So I'm the only non -Calvinist on the panel, right?

Not to say that I don't agree with part of everything that was said.

God is sovereign. If God isn't sovereign, then who is, right? And to some degree, everybody agrees in limited atonement.

Either God limited atonement whenever he cried to Tesla or we limit atonement by failing to surrender to this

God. So have it whichever way you want to in terms of that. I don't know that it's that important in terms of how you look at it from a perspective of us.

A. W. Tozer said a few things about it. I thought were really good. He said, if we could, if we could know all the mysteries about divine election, divine sovereignty, about the return of the

Lord and impending judgment, it would make us scholars and theologians, but it wouldn't make us a saint.

While every word they said may be 100 % true or not, if you're dealing with someone who feels as if though they were born for hell, the brass tacks is we were all born deserving hell.

And we have no idea who God will save or more importantly for me is to why

God would save because we are so deserving of this damnation and the sheer majesty and grace of God that anyone would be saved still still messes with me.

If I look at Romans nine as an example of someone being able to tell

God what he can or cannot do with the clay, I do not see Romans nine as an example of saved and lost.

There are many folks that God have used that God has used and will continue to use that are his just like an owner has vessels.

Some are used honorably and some are used in manners that are dishonorable. In other words, there's a chamber pot and there's a cereal bowl.

We don't get those confused, right? Both owned by the

Potter, both probably equally as appreciative of the

Potter. So while some look at Romans nine as an example of those born for hell and born for heaven,

I do not. If that's one of the examples that was in your mind, I know that that's one's commonly used. Somehow we have to marry the sovereignty of God, the grace of God, the long suffering of God, and the statements that God does not delight in the damnation of the wicked and would that none should perish, but that all should have everlasting life with God has chosen who he'll save.

And I'll let you walk with God until he enlightened you on the, how he's done that in a manner that suits you and pray that God gives you wisdom to deal with these children as he sees fit.

Amen. All right, go ahead.

I'll let, I'll let somebody else answer the Romans question. Just, just to, you're talking about where it says for God works all things out to the good of those who love

God. Those are called according to his purpose for those he did for, no, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that those who he'd do it for predestinate.

He did also justify and those who justified, he also glorified something to that effect. Absolutely. So you would see correct.

Yeah. To those that he did predestinate, which is very clearly a sovereign call.

Like I said, I don't, I don't deny the fact that God is sovereign in the call. Every single epistle written by every single, uh, apostle says, fill in the blank call as an apostle sent by Jesus Christ.

There is most assuredly an election most assuredly. I would not deny that one bit.

However, I'm not the one who elects. There's also a foreknowledge. I think that it's also noteworthy that he uses the word predestinating foreknowledge in the same text as if somehow to make sure that we go ahead and put the bed, the idea that God picks those that he knows will already choose him, which is, which is a faulty worldview because that would somehow another, if you run a back door on it would insinuate that you somehow have control over your salvation.

Here's what it looks like to me from a, from a regular Pentecostal boy who initiates this salvation man or God, God, who calls man to repentance, man, or God who initiates salvation, man,

God, the Bible says that no man comes to the father, lest the spirit draw him.

So we don't argue with scripture when scripture couldn't be any more clear. I hope

I answered the question. The reason I say, I don't know, like I've mirrored W Tozer, whenever he says things like why would

God do it? I don't have a clue. And if we're answering children questions that would somehow shut the door on them seeking after the

Lord, because somebody told them that there was no hope for them. I'll not take part of that.

Not in any way, shape, or form. We've been sternly warned by Christ that it would be better.

We're not born. Yes, conformed, conformed to the image of his son.

Yes, he's right in the Roman church. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

So let's, let's flesh it out a little bit. All right. So does this question insinuate that man has no obligation to surrender to God?

That's when I want to ask you that question before I go any further with. Okay. If God has already predetermined your salvation, then can you lose it based off of many merit that you've done?

So sure. So me and you agree a lot more than you think we do.

Me and you agree a lot more than you think we do. Sure.

It's there. So now

I want to flesh that out a little bit with, with not a point of scripture, but rather a principle learned throughout scripture.

We're familiar with, with the angels, correct? So the angels were, were produced by God to form in a purpose.

And whenever they rebelled against God, they were condemned permanently to hell without any chance of repentance.

Correct? The angels aren't given an opportunity to repent. Adam was unique in the that he disobeyed

God and he, God has given space for repentance. So if man were created the exact same way the angels were created in the fact that they were predestined for a role and predestined for a certain life, and then they rebelled against it.

How is it that man has an opportunity for repentance? I believe that in this fine line that I can't point to a scripture in more than a practice is where personal obligation and willful surrender falls into play.

Really love forced upon somebody is not love, but willful love is really love.

So when you love God, because you recognize what God has done in you, that's love.

Indeed, if you're forced to love him, then it's coercion, no longer love. So therefore, while there is a sovereign

God that does not, in my opinion, and can't negate man's willful love and obedience to this

God. And we have to, we have to be careful at times how we approach election because it almost paints

God in a box of saying that, well, I've saved him. Now I got to deal with him or her and I, and the people on the other end, it appear have been done unjustly.

One thing we can know for sure is God is just and that God is right. And whenever we fail to see it in that way, it's because we don't have eyes to see it.

So I don't have eyes to know or a mind that can understand where God's sovereignty and man's free will dance together.

What might be salsa dancing though? It might be. Yes. But angels do have a wheel.

And so that, and that's the reason he's using that illustration. Angels do have a wheel. Let me read us a text and then, and then, and then we can be here all day.

Okay. To help us summarize, tune into the podcast. That's what I was fixing to say.

That's what I was fixing to say. To summarize this subject, a text that helped me tremendously was

Hosea chapter two. Okay. You want to run over there to Hosea chapter two. Is that where you use that Tyler? Okay, good.

Would you want to read it, Tyler? You want to read it? Go ahead and read it. And then I'll give a little explanation. I was going to pick up to make it simple.

Verse six, Hosea two, six. One of the things I love about the Christian standard

Bible is when the new Testament points to the old, they put it in bold. Yeah. And so I turned to Rome is nine.

It's like two thirds bold. And honestly, when I got to Romans nine,

I found myself in Hosea. That's right. And that's where I started grappling with this idea when I was 21, but Hosea two, six, therefore, this is what

I will do. I will block her way with thorns. I will enclose her with a wall so that she cannot find her pass.

She will pursue her lovers, but not catch them. She will look for them, but not find them. Then she will think

I will go back to my former husband for then it was better for me than now. That's good. I'm going to stop us right there just for simplicity.

Okay. And so Hosea chapter two talks shows very clearly a picture of the sovereignty of God, the predestining and the election of God.

It's a simple question for me is who's stronger, us or God? Well, let's answer the question.

This is important answer. So who's stronger us or God? Well, you know, it's God, but then sometimes we don't act like it's

God because then we're going to say that my ability to choose defeats his choice. So here,

Hosea chapter two answers that question. God's saying, this is what I'm going to do. And he's, of course, speaking to Israel.

Okay. Is God ever going to let Israel go? No, because it's the lineage that he's ordained predestined for Christ was

Israel ever disobedient. Of course, she was, were there consequences for those disobedience?

Absolutely. So then God says this, therefore I'm going to hedge her up. I'm going to put a hedge around her.

Now it doesn't, it's not fatalism. Fatalism means that you're stripped of your ability to make decisions, that you're stripped of your human responsibility.

It's not fatalism. Notice what the harlot in this story does. And where the harlot in the story, by the way, in case

I tell vertical, I said all the time, guys, where are we at in the story? Okay. Where the harlot in the story, look what it says, says that she's going to continue to pursue her lovers.

She's going to, sorry, my phone all flipped around there, but she's going to continue to pursue the things that she wanted.

Right? So, so she's going to continue to pursue her lovers and she'll not catch them. She's going to continue to, to pursue after the things, the world and the wolves and the flax and the things that made her money.

And, and she's not going to be able to have them. Okay. So on and so forth. And so, so it's not that she all of a sudden wakes up one day and it's like a robot.

I'm just going to love God. No, God says, I'm going to hedge her in and I'm not going to allow her to have the things that she wants.

There's not a good father do that. Amen. And then at the end, it says, then she will find her way back to me and be healed.

She will find her way. There's this hedging in this closing. And so it's not fatalism. She very clearly is making decisions in the whole journey, right?

She's very clearly make, she has fleshly desires in the whole journey, but God knows exactly how to, and this is how

I came to grapple with irresistible grace. It was those two things. One who's stronger, me or God, because I'm pretty hardheaded and y 'all know that about me.

All right. So I'm hardheaded, but who's, who's stronger me or God? Of course

God is. And then, and then the hedging in, I still today, do we not still today as believers still grapple with this flesh and thanks be to God.

He has hedged us in. He is saying, I know as a good father, how to keep you standing in the faith.

I know how I won't leave you. I'm not just going to leave you to your own devices. And so, so that's where, do

I believe that people have free will? Absolutely. But with our free will, we choose hell every time Romans three, in my opinion,

Romans three says, no man seeks God, no man seeking after God. So then all of a sudden, why did you start seeking

God? That's a question to answer. And so Edith, even in this with your students, asking them that question, why do you even care about God?

Why are you even asking this question? It goes back to the blasphemy question. Why are you even asking that question? And the good news is someone is asking that question.

Then there's an evidence that the Lord is stirring in their life. You know, there's a stirring there. Jesse and I, and the last thing

I'll say, Jesse and I answered this question just a little bit the other night, even because we love evangelism here.

We love to, to, to share the gospel people. We, you know, Bruno, we love to knock on doors, you know, and things of that nature.

Some of these guys never done that. So we got to get them out there. Okay. And so, um, we, we, we do that and we pray with people spontaneously praying with people.

Do I ever for one second, knock on the door and be like, Hmm, I wonder if this one's elect or not.

No, not for a second, because I believe that God is so sovereign that his word will not return void.

And when we knock on that door, if that door comes open, this is a divine appointment. This is a divine appointment.

I'm not for one second, wondering if this person is of the elect. If I should waste time sharing the gospel with them or not trying to figure it out.

No, we preach the gospel. We proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ and his grace is sufficient and it's marvelous.

And so again, if you want to get right down to the nitty gritty of it, it's okay to say there's things that we know and there's things that we don't know.

Amen. There's mysteries just for research, for your research. As you continue to read,

I encourage you to continue to read and ask questions. You know, there was a reformation five over 500 years ago, they debated this topic and the

Roman Catholic church had their best theologian come after Luther, their best named

Erasmus. And Luther answered all his questions in one little book called the bondage of the will.

The bondage of the will is probably eight bucks now.

Isn't that incredible? Somewhere on Amazon, eight bucks probably. The bondage of the will.

Luther's response to Erasmus on the Roman Catholic position on predestination and human will.

Really great resource to really get into what we're kind of talking about.

Luther already answered all these questions like 500 and many years ago. Continue your research.

Quick question and then we'll wrap this up. Yeah, great question.

So a person gets saved, right? So that would be the big question, like did the person get saved?

Because if he's not saved, you will know them by their fruits, right? So he'll be, you know, the fruits would tell the root of that faith.

You know what I mean? Like, is he walking in the fruits of darkness still? Is he walking in the light?

Like, is he in the church? Does his elders know him? Like, you cannot just appoint yourself.

I didn't get to the whole thing, but you can't appoint yourself as an elder. I just woke up and I feel called and there

I am. You know, Steve, I recommend another resource for your investigation, right?

There's a resource by Steve Lawson called Called to Preach, written in this year,

I think, or late last year, actually. Called to Preach. He talks about being called to preach.

He wrote it for young pastors who are in line as a candidate, whether in a

Presbyterian church or in a Baptist, doesn't matter. He wrote a great synopsis of what it is to be called, qualifications, how do you know if you're called to be like a

Steve Lawson. Steve Lawson is the man when it comes to that. So Called to Preach is a great resource for you in your investigation.

But to answer your question, I would say he will need to be known by his elders and his elders will need to make that decision with him, right?

Yeah. Yes. Sure. Sure.

Sure. Not necessarily.

No. I think the question is, is in the South, especially, and you may not be aware of this, especially like being divorced is, is a disqualifier because they interpret husband of one wife as divorced and remarried.

So, but they, but they, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I see.

Yeah. So, so that's a, so, and it's,

I don't think he's just here in the South. Maybe I didn't say that. But it's like, it's like, it's, it's getting into the qualifications of elders and deacons, husband of one wife, one that will with his household.

Yeah. So unfortunately divorce is real. We live in the fallen world is very broken.

And whenever you disciple people is messy and people are messy. Right. And broken.

And so look at Paul, Paul was not divorced, but he had, he had murdered, murdered.

So which one is worse? Divorce or murder? Well, both are bad. There isn't a clear biblical teaching.

Yeah. Yeah. So it all depends on the denomination.

Some denominations are a little different on the divorce thing. I would say it probably, in my, in my opinion, it would probably fall to the freedom of that local church government to make that call.

Okay. Yeah. Well, we're hitched to the Bible, but, but if, if a church elder wants to be an elder and, and if he is like model and he could be a candidate for sure, that doesn't mean he's going to be elected.

See the way it works in a Presbyterian church is that you need to be elected by your congregation.

Right. And then you need to be vetted a long sense of vetted that word vetted capital

V, right. You can't just be elected and boom, you got to be vetted by a long process.

And, and, and if the elders are not allowing you, you bringing up charges,

I'm finding your life in delinquent or your doctrine and delinquency, then yes, you will not be elected to be serving as an officer of the church in the

Presbyterian church. So yes, in the way it works in the Baptist is probably a little different. There's some vetting and there's other ones, probably not as much vetting, but yes, this is why if you read another resource,

Christianity and liberalism written by John Jay, Jay Machen Gresham, Jake mentioned

Gresham. Yeah. In the last chapter, he talks about the church needs to up his game on Betty and not allow all these churches, pastors come in.

And the reason why they're coming in is because the church is not vetting them enough. Right. He wrote that a hundred years ago, 1923, right?

Like have we improved in vetting within Presbyterian or Baptist part? Not, not much.

Right. Look, look, all the scandals in the SBC, 700 accusations, 700 reports, 700 report, right.

The sex scandals. And that's just one denomination. Right. So the vetting process needs to be taken more seriously.

Right. So I would leave it to the local church government to decide right for themselves.

If that person is fit to be an elder or a deacon in that local church government.

So if a local church government vets, they vote and all that stuff, then, then, then if they build a house without the

Lord, that's going to fail. But if they have the Lord built in that house, let me,

Claude, I know you had something to say, take, take three minutes and speak to it. I want to speak to it because this is my local church and then

I'm going to let Robert wrap this up. Is that okay? Yes. So two things you, you gave the example of a man's lost.

He saved. Then this comes up. Right. So first of all, the scripture says, any man is

Christ. He's a new creature. Old things passed away, behold, all things become new. Second, I would tackle the actual language that's used in the text so that we, um, assume into the text that that qualification is saying a man who has never been married before, but the context of the passage is in a society where, um, uh, polygamy was a practice.

So the contextual understanding of that passage is one woman, man, meaning that you don't have multiple wives, not that you've not been married before.

And then it comes down to like what Jesse was saying there, it comes down to a lot, the local bedding process within the congregation, because the elders in a local congregation will know the individual, right?

They'll know the ups and the downs and that are of the life is important. It's not snapshot.

We can't, we can't just look at a snapshot of somebody's life, right? Because you take a snapshot of my life.

You will go home right now and say, I wish I wouldn't have listened to that dude say anything because he's a piece of crap because I am right.

That's why I pointed to Paul. Right. Paul is, it was a different man murdered and all that stuff. And all of a sudden

Jesus chose him to be an apostle, right. Which is, yeah, but, but, but he had an awful life.

So can Jesus change a person or not? Like how powerful is salvation? Right. And very powerful.

Yeah. So I think we're dealing with a couple of things. You look at the movie version, not the snapshot. Right. I think we're dealing with a couple of things.

Every single person in this room that is a believer in Jesus Christ is qualified and called and expected and commanded to preach the gospel period, period, the proclamation of the gospel, but not everyone is called to be an elder or to be a deacon or to be a pastor.

We have a body that we function together. And we preached about this here a few months ago here.

And, and then, you know, and we've talked about this a lot. So in my lifetime coming through Southern Baptist life, we had a horrible experience with this.

And the reason we had a horrible experience with it was there was very little vetting, like authentic vetting of biblical gospel centers.

Literally they put a bulletin out of insert in the bulletin that said, any man that's not been divorced, his name's on the list.

And the scarlet letter is the divorce. Okay. So I came from that.

And then, and knowing that that's wrong and hated it, and then it becomes a whole political rigmarole and a whole voting thing.

And just, it's terrible. Okay. And then you can swing to the extreme other side of like this legalism, you know, of our liberalism rather, that's more legalism on one side, you can get this other side to be like, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. You know, all things behold, every man's a new creation. That was before my salvation.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And where we're at here is

I can't deny husband of one wife. The normal translation for the word husband of one is actually all throughout the rest of scripture, the word first.

So you can't deny that. So I can't just skip over it as if that doesn't exist. Okay. So that's that it, but in the

English translation we have, it still says one, but all other places that that exact Greek word is used, it does use the word first.

So I can't just ignore that. But at the same time, I do understand that there is a grace to be applied.

There is a local autonomy to be applied. There is an evidence in a person's life that whatever has happened in their past is so far in the past that it has not made them without or not caused them to have reproach.

And I think that's the biggest thing. Um, and it does at times, unfortunately become circumstantial because I've been in situations where I've had deacons there that their girlfriends showed up at church.

Now they've only been married once and have one wife, right? There's a circumstance right across town over here where there's a deacon in the church, which in that church is the same as an elder.

Okay. Because they don't have the office of elders. They just have deacons. There's a situation right across town here that the deacon sits in church with his wife and the girlfriend sits right behind them.

So no, no, no, no. But what I'm trying to say is he would say that's his first wife in Christ, but is he still qualified?

Right? Of course not. So what I'm trying to say is there become some things that become very, very obvious, very obvious that are like no brainers.

The problem in the church though, is we try to make these rules so that we don't have to use our brains. We don't have to work, work hard or vet through people or talk hard or have hard conversations.

Like say, like, you don't mind me saying this Bruno and I have breaks, but Bruno, you gotta get some more patients, bro. You know, have we not said that over breakfast?

And he don't mind me saying that to him, you know? I mean, it's like, it's like, we got to talk a little bit, you know? And then he's talking to me.

He's like, bro, Hey, look, you're, you know, and we speak in each other's life just because I'm a pastor here.

Doesn't mean that the men of this church don't speak into my life. You know what I'm saying? I mean, there's a brotherhood there. So there is an evaluation.

So I think we're always looking for the law. And I think there's the spirit of the law that is there.

That is then the whole spirit of the law for the qualifications is can this man stand in this pulpit and preach this word of God above reproach that no one in here, if he gets up and preaches on husbands, love your wife, just as Christ loves the church.

Is there anything in his at least recent past, or maybe his extended past, if you beat your wife to death, then you're probably disqualified.

So even MacArthur says it this way, is it possible? Possible. Is it likely?

No. Okay. That's how, that's how they measure it out. Okay. Because then they go on to deal with when he manages household wealth, but is it possible?

Yes. The redemption. So this is not a spiritual matter. And what you're making it, in my opinion, is a spiritual matter.

It's not a spiritual matter. A person that has this is cleaned and redeemed and forgiven and free to go serve.

What this is, is not a spiritual matter. This is a perspective of people matter. See, this is not a

God's perspective. This is a people perspective. So those qualifications are written, not, not to earn

God's favor. These qualifications are written so that these people will follow you with, without hesitation.

Does that make sense? So that's why, that's, that's why it's, it's grappling through there.

And that's why there's, like you said, all the other ones, including our wives must be hospitable and our children in obedience.

And I mean, if you see John Luke, who's up here playing the con today, if you see him out here smoking cigarettes on the back porch out here and giving the little kids cigarettes, well, what kind of reflection is that on his daddy?

And you're like, well, cigarettes. Well, just so you know what I'm saying. All right. Cowboy cigarettes, even.

All right. But you get the point. Does that make sense? So, so that's going to do a direct reflection on me as the local pastor of this church that I don't have my household in order because now my son is acting a fool out here.

And then I'm going to get up and preach to you how to raise your kids. What are you going to do? Yeah, it's order.

It's order. All right, Robert. Hey, look, seriously, watch the podcast on Thursday nights.

Okay. 830. We continue to grapple through these things. Does that make sense? And, and, and you may not have got your question answered today because you, we had so many different opinions.

That's okay. Cause we're grappling through it just like you are guys. Maybe we should do a Q and a episode in the future.

Go ahead, Robert. Wrap this up. Well, we'll call just recommended that continue to blow his phone up and we'll have content.

Yes. Text me. Yeah. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. Please. If you need his number, put it up on the screen. Yeah. 704 -512 -3394.

I'm glad that God has, Bruno's going to come down and take the love offering up guys. And that way we can go ahead and dismiss as soon as Robert's done.

I'm glad that God has shown me my inadequacy that way. I don't have a false idea that I've done anything.

So all praise goes to Jesus because he's brought these guys together.

He's, he's given me these guys as friends, as brothers, and I'm thankful for them. God has given us vertical life and all the wonderful things that you guys have done.

So it's all God and it's all what he's doing. So we give him all praise and glory for what he's doing.

We're just glad to be a part of his kingdom. And thank you for that. Jonathan gave some statistics this morning about the lost in Newton and every city has their own statistics, but you know what all those people have?

One of these. And so us old geezers are trying to get on the internet and trying to reach the loss.

We're not all that old. I'm the old geezer up here. So I'll be the old geezer.

You want to be the whippersnappers? There's us old geezers. Sorry. Some of us are old geezers and some of us are old.

Some of us old geezers are trying to figure out how to make hip and cool graphics to make it appealing to people and young people.

And so we appreciate your support and prayers and also to do that and to fight the algorithms to make it get out further we'd love for you to to like and follow those things on social media and their individual podcast.

Here I Stand Theology podcast, Bread of the Word podcast, Bible Theory podcast, Real Talk with Big John.

Follow these guys so that we can reach more people and we also appreciate the

Christian businesses that have come alongside us and are putting the gospel in movie theaters like the

Carolina Theater. We are thankful for them putting the gospel in the theater so people can and letting people come in and preach the gospel after movies.

We praise God for what he's doing. So thank you.

One last thing. Unless the Lord, which he does, Lord willing, we will have another conference next year.

And if he continues in a certain direction, unless he changes our mind, this is the direction we're going.

But we're open to the Lord doing what he wants. So if the

Lord allows, if this is his direction, this is what it will be. Make your reservations in Gatlinburg, Tennessee and we'll see you next year.

That is, how do you say it? Reformata, right? Reformata. I was going to say the

A .I. said Reformata or something. So Reformata Baptist Church. This is

Quads Church. And so I've already talked to you a couple about that. Lord willing, we will make a trip up there so you can plan a year in advance.

We want to go support that. We want this to grow. We want it to be something that's powerful and informative and a safe place to ask good questions.

Yep. It's going to be the exact same dates as this week. It'll be the same weekend. I know with the calendar year, everything will shift.

But be like, what is this? Basically the last weekend in April. Basically last weekend in April is what you can look at.

We will discuss among ourselves if we're going to do Friday, Saturday, Sunday, if we're still going to do the Thursday night or do we do it all day again?

I mean, this is the first time we've ever done this, you know, so we're learning. We're growing and we would love your feedback on that too.

You know, you're not going to hurt our feelings. We you know, we would love your feedback, you know, and saying, hey, this would have done better.

We talked about the topics that we chose were huge topics, you know, so you're barely just like skimming over the surface.

And so, so, you know, there, it might be, we narrow our topic base down to where we can go deeper.

You know, there's a bunch of stuff that we'll continue to work through, but if you've got feedback for us, feel free to do that.