July 13, 2018 Show with Les Lanphere on “CALVINIST”

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July 16, 2018

July 13, 2018: Les Lanphere, Independent Film Maker who will discuss his film: “CALVINIST”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:14: This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this
01:19: Friday the 13th, 2018, and that is merely a coincidence that we have
01:26: Les Lanphier on the program on Friday the 13th, and it's great to have him back on the program.
01:33: This is our first two -hour interview with Les. Les was on the program once before when
01:38: I was doing on -site interviews at a major Bible conference and he happened to approach the
01:44: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth and we had a wonderful interview with him then, and we are so delighted to have a fuller interview, more complete and thorough interview now on his film,
01:56: Calvinist, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Les Lanphier.
02:02: Thank you so much for having me, Chris. In fact, I'm going to give our listeners our email address right now.
02:09: It is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
02:14: Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
02:22: USA, and only remain anonymous if your question happens to involve a personal and private matter.
02:28: Let's say you are starting to wonder about this doctrine known as, or these teachings
02:36: I should say, known as Calvinism, and you are in a church where your pastor despises these teachings, perhaps you are the only one who is being drawn to study them, or perhaps you have already come to believe in them, and you are worried about making that public.
02:55: Perhaps you are even a pastor who has begun to study them and think favorably upon the
03:02: Calvinistic doctrines, and the denomination that you are in, or the congregation that you are in, is historically anti -Calvinist.
03:10: There's a number of reasons why someone might want to be anonymous, and we will respect your wishes, but if it's not a personal and private matter, please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
03:21: USA. We are talking, as I said, about the movie Calvinist.
03:27: It's a documentary created by our guest, independent filmmaker, Les Lanphier, and first of all, tell us a summary, if you will, about this documentary before we go into your personal testimony of salvation, even though you've been a guest before.
03:45: We had a very brief interview the last time, and I want to have more of a complete understanding of your background, what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances the
03:56: Lord used in your life to draw you to himself and save you. So we will get to that in a moment.
04:02: But before that, give our listeners something of a summary of the documentary
04:07: Calvinist. Sure. So I became a
04:13: Calvinist in a movement that has been described as the young, restless, and reformed movement, and I have since sort of,
04:25: I would like to say, matured in my understanding of the doctrines of faith, or doctrines of grace.
04:31: Now you're old, you're Calvinist and cranky. Yes. Also known as a
04:38: Presbyterian. So being in that movement,
04:46: I saw this very dramatic thing happening all over the country, it seemed, where all these young people were becoming
04:55: Calvinist, and I found myself in a situation, I have a podcast and things like that. So I found myself in a situation where I was sort of surrounded by these people, hearing very similar stories from everyone about the kinds of people that they were listening to 10 years ago, and that were really piquing their interest in these doctrines, and I kind of realized that there was a very cohesive, shared experience that all these people seemed to have, and so I found myself in a situation where I was able to at least reach out and ask if people would be interested in seeing a movie about, a documentary about this time frame and about this experience and this phenomenon, and I was very fortunate to get,
05:49: I did a Kickstarter and raised three times as much money as I asked for, and I was able to devote an entire year to traveling all over the country and interviewing all of my heroes in the
06:01: Reformed Faith, and putting together this film. So the film is sort of an overview and recounting of this time frame, but also it goes into the history of Calvinism, and the biblical defense of the five points of Calvinism, and things like that.
06:24: Well, I want to give a list of these heroes that you just mentioned who participate in the documentary.
06:31: R .C. Sproul, Paul Washer, Shai Lin, James White, Michael Horton, Joel Beeky, Timothy Brindle, R.
06:40: Scott Clark, Kevin DeYoung, Ligon Duncan, Summer Yeager, who is James White's daughter, who
06:46: I've known since she was a tiny, tiny, tiny little girl, John Piper, Joe Thorne, and Carl Truman.
06:52: In fact, most of these, with the exception of a few, have been on this program, and as I was mentioning to you before the show, it was kind of, not even kind of, it was clearly providential over lunch today when
07:07: I was having, sharing a fellowship over lunch with a man that many in my
07:13: Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio audience will recognize because he has frequently been a co -host,
07:19: Buzz Taylor. And Buzz will be returning at some point in the future. There were various reasons why he has not been heard as a co -host lately.
07:27: He was away in Buffalo visiting his mother for a while, then he got injured, and then he began to really dig into finishing a book on eschatology that he is writing.
07:38: But I was having lunch with Buzz Taylor, and I happened to mention when he asked, what are you doing your show on today?
07:46: And I said, I'm doing it on the documentary known as Calvinist. And when
07:51: I mentioned a couple of the people that are participants in this movie, and Shai Lin was one of them, he said, oh,
07:58: Shai Lin, I know him very well. And I said, really? Because Buzz, if you ever see Buzz rap in hip hop, don't come to mind when you see
08:07: Buzz. Buzz says, Buzz told me that he was Shai Lin's truck driving instructor about a decade or more ago when
08:17: Buzz worked for Schneider Trucking. And he also gave Shai Lin a car.
08:26: And Shai Lin, from what I understand, when he visits this area, actually visits one of my key sponsors of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, the
08:35: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. So I did call Shai to leave him a message and to invite him on this program as well, because it's a very controversial issue in regard to Christian hip hop and rap.
08:48: And I wanted to take both sides of that issue and have Shai as a part. And of course, there are even more than two sides to that.
08:56: There are many sides to that. But I'm looking forward to hopefully getting Shai on the program. And looking forward to getting many of these men on this list back on the program.
09:08: And it's always a joy to interview those that you've included in this show, in this movie.
09:13: Shai Lin was the most elusive person to get on.
09:19: I had some preliminary conversations with him to see if he was interested. And he kept telling me maybe.
09:24: And then very last minute, when I was in Philadelphia at Westminster, right before I got on the plane, he texted me and said,
09:32: OK, let's meet. I had to change my plans and go set up for it. But I'm so glad I did.
09:37: Yeah, he's such a wonderful brother. And he's probably, out of all the people that were in the movie, he's let me know the most how much he appreciates it.
09:46: So I'm so glad he was a part of it. Great. Well, I'm going to play the audio for a trailer for the movie.
09:53: And obviously, when you're playing the audio, especially on a trailer, it loses a lot. Because there's usually very fascinating graphic images that help set up the mood for the movie.
10:05: But since this is a radio program, we're going to have to deal with the audio. But here is the audio for the trailer for Calvinist.
10:12: Time a child in the United States enters kindergarten, he begins to be taught and to learn, if only through osmosis, a particular understanding of the nature of man, this concept of free will, that man is free to choose the good or evil on either side.
10:37: That's a blasphemous doctrine. The Bible tells us that something happened radically to the constituent nature of humanity in the fall.
10:55: A reformed resurgence has always been the young, restless reform. And it was all
11:01: I could do not to scream out, Jesus wants the rose! Do they call you pastor here or dude?
11:07: And that's the way it was in the Reformation. The thing that makes
11:18: Calvinism, Calvinism is the view of scripture that emerged out of the
11:25: Reformation. Why does he still find fault? For who resists his will?
11:31: And the answer from Paul is, who are you, oh man, who answers back to God? If you believe that God's love for you was set upon you, not for anything in you or that you've done, it sets you free to serve him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
11:55: There's nothing you can earn. It's a weight off for people. I can't even see the kingdom of God, Jesus told
12:12: Nicodemus. I have to be born again. Well, there you have it.
12:24: That was the one of the trailers that is available on YouTube for the movie,
12:30: The Calvinist, or should I say Calvinist, I'm sorry. And I noticed that there were some names left off that list that I read to you from the imdb .com
12:42: website. Stephen J. Lawson, obviously, is an important figure. That's a participant in this documentary.
12:52: And Joel Beeky. Oh, I actually read Joel Beeky's name. But if I missed anyone, it was not my intention because there are,
12:59: I think, a lot more names than are included on the IMBD website there that I got that list from.
13:08: But surely a wonderful lineup of representatives of the doctrines of sovereign grace.
13:14: And now we can enter into how you became Les Lanphier.
13:20: And I'm not talking about the moment you were conceived. I'm talking about how you became this filmmaker and specifically a on fire, theologically reformed
13:34: Christian who wanted to use your talents and create this movie. And it all begins with how you were raised as a child.
13:44: I don't know what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in. But tell us about that and how you providentially came to be drawn by God to himself and become a born -again believer.
13:57: And then, of course, how you discovered and embraced and fell in love with the doctrines known as Calvinism, Reformed Theology, the doctrines of sovereign grace, the doctrines of free grace.
14:07: There's so many different descriptions. But tell us about that story. Sure. Well, yeah,
14:13: I grew up without any real religion. My mom would always say that she was a
14:18: Christian, but we never went to church. There actually was a small stint when I was like 15, maybe, where my mom, she wanted to start getting connected to church again.
14:29: So she'd take me out. That was a really nice time. I remember that very fondly. But I had a friend who, since like first grade,
14:40: I would go over to his house. He was one of my closest friends. And his father was a very devout Christian, and he was raised in a
14:47: Christian home. And that was the most exposure that I got.
14:52: And they would take me to church whenever I would stay over on the weekends. And the father, he would pay for me to go to, you know,
15:01: Christian conferences with his son. And he just, he cared about me a lot and cared about my soul.
15:07: And it was, that was a huge blessing, just looking back on it. I didn't get saved through any of that, although I thought
15:13: I did a couple of times. I went to an Acquire the Fire conference when
15:18: I was 16, I think. And I came back to school, and I told everybody
15:24: I was a Christian. And very shortly after that, I was using drugs and, you know, being promiscuous and all that.
15:34: So I was not, so I essentially was a practicing atheist, more of an agnostic.
15:43: I didn't really care much about religion, but I definitely didn't believe. And I was also into psychedelic drugs in the latter part of my high school career.
15:56: So after I graduated, the same friend, he knew that I was sort of working at a gas station in our small town,
16:06: Port Allegheny, Pennsylvania. And he sort of, he was going to Penn State.
16:13: He lived on the state college campus. So he invited me to come live with him, just to kind of get out of this environment, this sort of, you know, small town, and all my drug friends were around me.
16:28: And it was just, you know, he wanted to pluck me out of it. So I lived with him for a little while, and then he wasn't really a practicing
16:37: Christian at the time, but he had all this background. So we found ourselves in a situation where I was unemployed.
16:45: I lost my job in state college, and he was dropping out of school, and both of us mainly basically because we were doing a lot of things we shouldn't have been doing.
16:56: And then he got hooked up with, I think it was Crew, and they were preaching the gospel to him, and he was starting to really embrace his faith as an adult.
17:09: So one day, we had driven home and we were on our way back.
17:16: I was coming down off of some pills that I had taken, and I was the most depressed
17:22: I'd ever been in my life. And he came, and he, you know, came to pick me up.
17:28: So I got in the car with him, and we were driving back to state college. And he asked me what was wrong, because I was clearly doing something wrong.
17:36: And all I could say, the only thing that I could sort of articulate how
17:41: I felt was that I just want to be a good person. So looking back on that, I think that I was really seeing my sin, and that was the best way that I could say it.
17:53: I just want to be a good person. So we were in this old, broken -down
17:59: Jeep. It was a green Jeep, and he pulls it over to the side of the road, and he reaches in the back seat, and he pulls out his
18:05: Bible, and he starts explaining the gospel to me. And he says that,
18:13: I'm a sinner, and I deserve to die. But Jesus wasn't a sinner, and he doesn't deserve to die, but he died.
18:22: And then he explained that Jesus was dying as a substitute for my sin. Now I'd heard the phrase,
18:30: Jesus died for your sins a million times, but I never quite understood what it meant. And all he did in that moment was connect the dots to show me the idea of substitution, that Jesus died for your sins in place of you.
18:44: And in God's sovereignty, in God's electing grace in that moment, he opened my eyes, and it just clicked.
18:55: It finally made sense. So I remember just sort of having this confused look on my face the whole drive back home.
19:04: I was just like, wow, this is... I think
19:09: I believe this. And then for the next few weeks, I would just stare up at the ceiling in my bedroom, in this dorm room, and just say, like, this huge dumb smile on my face.
19:21: And I was broke, and I had no idea what the future held for me, but I would just stare up at the ceiling with a smile and say, you're real, and you love me.
19:32: And I was just absolutely blown away. And looking back on that, obviously, now that I...
19:37: because I wasn't a Calvinist for probably six years after that, but looking back, it's still abundantly clear that God opened my eyes in that moment in a way that I never could have chose for myself.
19:54: Well, that's how I came to faith. In fact, it might be wise of us, I very often take it for granted, that everybody who listens to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio understands what
20:03: Calvinism means, understands what Reformed theology means. But I do hear from people who listen to this program who are not
20:11: Reformed, and sometimes they're not even Christian. I hear from Muslims occasionally. And I've heard from atheists and members of the
20:20: Unification Church, Reverend Sung Young Moon's cult. I've heard from all different kinds of people.
20:26: So in summary form, before we hear how you became a Calvinist, and of course you became a
20:32: Calvinist by the doctrines of sovereign grace, or should I say by the grace of God, but as far as the earthly providential occurrences that came about, before we hear that, if you could let our listeners know in summary form what
20:51: Calvinism or Reformed theology is. Sure. I think that the easiest way to summarize it is to say that all religions are synergistic.
21:06: All man -made religions and even misunderstandings of the biblical Christianity are synergistic, meaning that there is...
21:16: God is doing his part, and it's now up to man to put in some sort of effort towards God.
21:25: And usually in mainstream Christianity, that's called making a decision for Christ.
21:33: So Jesus is trying to save everyone, and now all you have to do is...
21:38: He's reaching his hand out as far as he can. Now all you have to do is grab his hand, essentially. Make your decision.
21:44: He's trying to save you. Let him save you. Where Calvinism essentially removes all of that effort that you could possibly have, and it does that because it's embracing the biblical idea that you're unable to have any part in your own salvation.
22:07: You can't choose Christ because you're unable by nature.
22:13: It's who we are. So that brings in a lot of offensive concepts to our flesh, but are all very biblical, such as the idea that God must have elected a certain group of people before the foundation of the world based on nothing that they had done, good or evil, and he chose that he would save them, and that means that he chose not to save others.
22:38: And then also in time, even when we were rebel sinners and wanted nothing to do with God, he chooses on his own time, through his own means, to open our eyes by the power of the
22:51: Holy Spirit. So it's a miracle that he performs on people that actually want nothing to do with him until he does make that change, and then they love him.
23:02: So that's essentially it. It's all God. Zero us in salvation. When I worked back in the 90s for a major Christian radio station in New York, which is an affiliate of the
23:17: Salem Media Group, which is the largest Christian radio network in the world, when
23:23: I worked for WMCA, I founded and created a nightly program called
23:29: The Voice of Sovereign Grace, and it involved multiple participants, some of whom are actually on the list of speakers in your movie,
23:40: Calvinist. And Joel Beeky, actually, The Voice of Sovereign Grace was Joel Beeky's very first radio program because he was once a part of a denomination that didn't believe in using radio, believe it or not.
23:53: And one of the reasons he left that denomination because of a hyper -Calvinistic leaning, to say the least.
24:02: But anyway, I invented a tagline, or an opening statement,
24:08: I should say, for The Voice of Sovereign Grace that went like this.
24:14: It defined sovereign grace as being the fact that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help save themselves.
24:24: Would you agree with that summary of Calvinism? Absolutely. Yeah, so that's a way to summarize it in just a few words.
24:33: Well now, let's hear how you, in fact, you know what I'm going to do, since we are rapidly approaching our first break.
24:40: When we come back, I'm going to have you give a summary of your testimony of how you discovered and fell in love with Calvinism, the theme of your documentary,
24:50: Calvinist. And we will also take listener questions. But if you would like to join us on the air, there are already people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.
25:02: But if you'd like to get in line, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.
25:11: And please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
25:20: Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with less land fear and more about his movie,
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29:41: I don't know if you recognized his voice there, Les, but we thank him a lot for participating in that ad for us.
29:50: For those of you who just tuned us in, this is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have as our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go,
29:58: Les Lanphere, independent filmmaker and producer of the movie or documentary
30:03: Calvinist. If you'd like to join us on the air with your own question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.
30:09: Now you already somewhat gave us a summary of how you came to the
30:16: Doctrines of Grace in the very beginning of the show when you were talking about why you created this movie. But if you could perhaps give us some more detail, although still somewhat summarized, about what it was lacking, what specifically the things that were lacking that you came to realize were lacking in your theology as someone who was regenerate, who loved
30:39: Christ, who loved his word, who believed you were born again, and you're following Christ, you're worshiping him, and you're learning about him, but then all of a sudden you start to recognize, wait a minute, there's something wrong with certain things that I believe that aren't meshing with the
30:55: Bible. If you could tell us a little bit more about that. Sure. Yeah, so shortly after my conversion
31:02: I moved to Florida, and I would start attending whatever kind of church I could, and I had no discernment,
31:09: I had no understanding of doctrine, I had no idea. So the first church I was a part of was actually an
31:15: IHOP church, which if people don't know what that is, it is on the fringes of craziness as far as Christian churches go.
31:25: And I was actually baptized in that church, which by, you know, there's a woman pastor, and they had me speak in tongues afterwards.
31:32: So a very interesting beginning, and the Lord slowly progressively put me in more solid churches, and I ended up in a
31:44: Calvary Chapel, a really big Calvary Chapel in my town here. And of course, a lot more reserved than the
31:52: IHOP. Yes, yes, much better theologically and ecclesiologically as in a
31:59: Calvary Chapel. So right around this time was, like, you know, as I identify in the movie, this resurgence was happening.
32:10: All of a sudden, all these young people were discovering this thing called Calvinism, and they were talking about it.
32:16: And this group of young men who were sort of in leadership at this Calvary Chapel, they all became
32:22: Calvinists, and they started teaching Calvinism in the church. And that became a really, really big problem at this
32:29: Calvary Chapel. So they had all the leadership start signing documents saying they don't believe in Calvinism.
32:35: From the pulpit, they would start teaching against it and saying it's a document of the devil. And I was in pseudo -leadership in a young adults ministry.
32:49: So I was a Calvary Chapel fanboy, and this piece of contraband started getting passed around Calvary Chapel, and it was called
33:00: Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. Excellent documentary, excellent, excellent, excellent.
33:07: By Eric Holmberg, who has reached out to me, and he said that he thinks my movie is better than his.
33:15: I disagree, but it's a huge compliment. Oh yeah, his is a lot longer, but very good.
33:22: I would say they are on the same par of greatness. Yeah, no need to compare them. I just wanted to let you know that he complimented me, which
33:30: I really, really appreciate. So I watched this movie, and it was my mission to disagree with Calvinism, because I cared about Calvary Chapel, I wanted to defend the doctrines that Calvary Chapel held to.
33:48: So as I'm watching this movie, the first thing that's brought up is, you know, they're going through the history, and they talk about Pelagianism.
33:56: And they say that Pelagianism is this teaching that we're born clean slates. We're not stained by our parents' sin, by Adam's sin, and we are free to sin or not sin, and we only learn sin from our parents.
34:10: And I turned it off at that point, because I said, oh, that's it. That's the answer to Calvinism, Pelagianism, no big deal.
34:18: So I didn't continue watching it to find out that it was a bald -faced heresy, and every, you know, it's been rejected by the
34:26: Church for centuries. So I went back to Calvary Chapel, and I stood in front of a young adult ministry, and I taught them that we are born clean slates, that we have, there's no sin staining us, tabula rasa.
34:42: And one of the guys in this young adult ministry, afterwards, confronted me, and he started debating me.
34:52: And this guy's name is Tanner, who I now host a podcast with, probably 10 years later.
34:59: So he and this other gentleman would approach me, they would debate me, and this one time
35:07: I was praying with a kid that had been saved 20 times, and this was his 21st time, and I had him pray the sinner's prayer, and I popishly declared him saved.
35:16: And my other friend, who's actually in the movie, he approached me and said, you know that didn't save him, right?
35:23: And I, you know, I brushed him off. And then he sent me a video link, and it was a link to a
35:30: Paul Washer sermon. And the Paul Washer sermon was all about these mills that we run people through, where we have them pray the sinner's prayer, and we say, well, if you're too embarrassed to pray, just repeat after me.
35:46: And if you don't want to repeat after me, just squeeze my hand if you agree. And then Paul Washer says, behold the power of God, in this amazing sarcastic tone.
35:56: Yeah, leave it to Paul Washer to make you feel uncomfortable, as he did in that clip in Calvinist, where he tells a crowd of young people,
36:09: I don't know why you're clapping, because I'm talking about you. Yes, yes.
36:15: So he was talking directly to me in this clip, and then he goes into this idea of regeneration.
36:24: He talks about how God, he must take out your heart of stone, he must give you heart of flesh, and he explains how it's a miracle, a miracle even greater than the miracle of creation, because he says that God made all things ex nihilo out of nothing, but he actually has to do, he turns a dead sinner, a sinner who's against God, and he makes them now alive, and actually changes their heart positively towards him.
36:51: So he makes this amazing explanation, and my jaw, I'm staring at the screen, my jaw just drops.
36:58: And I remember for like two days, I couldn't like talk.
37:04: I was so shocked by this, and my wife, she was, you know, along on this journey with me all along.
37:11: So I started saying like, I think I'm a Calvinist, because I'd studied everything so much to disprove it.
37:21: I knew the five points, and I knew how they sort of all hinged on each other. So once Paul Washer made me see the need for regeneration, which in the
37:32: Tulip is irresistible grace, once that chain link closed, the other ones just slammed closed around it, and it all just consistently made sense, and I realized that this was the only way
37:45: I could think now. So I mean, it was, it was, people talk about it being the third birth, being born again, again.
37:55: It was extremely dramatic for me to realize that God had chosen me when
38:01: I never would have chosen him. And that's how I became a Calvinist. And how did you eventually find a church that was faithful to those teachings?
38:12: So that same friend Tanner, he had found a church in Palm City, Florida, that was a
38:21: Reformed Baptist Church, and he invited me to there. So I went there for a little while, ended up now back in Port St.
38:28: Lucie, and I go to a wonderful Presbyterian church called Christ the
38:33: King, and I am personally a Presbyterian now. Wow, you live in Port St. Lucie, and so does my very first pastor now, my very first pastor as a born -again believer,
38:43: Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, the ad that you heard earlier. Ah, yes!
38:49: Yeah, he lives in Port St. Lucie now. He came to visit our church a few times. Oh, great! Yeah.
38:55: Yeah, he's a wonderful man and a dear brother. But let's backtrack a little bit, because I want to prevent any unnecessary angry calls or emails from Calvary Chapel pastors or members.
39:10: From what I recall, and I'm not an expert on Calvary Chapel, but I don't think that they are full -blown
39:16: Pelagian. You were talking before. No, no, no. And again, to remind our listeners,
39:22: Pelagianists believe that we are born basically spiritually neutral.
39:29: We're not born with original sin or depravity, that that is something learned by humans.
39:37: And of course, a full -blown Pelagian does not even believe that grace is required of salvation.
39:44: It's just a help that may be a good thing to have, and is a good thing to have, but it's not a required thing for salvation, according to the full -blown
39:54: Pelagian, as opposed to a semi -Pelagian or an Arminian. Yeah, and Calvary Chapel has their distinctives all written, and they like to say that they're somewhere between Calvinist and Arminian, and in a sense, they are.
40:13: But I think if you really read through their points, they're mostly Arminian, and then they agree with the perseverance of the saints.
40:20: They do? The Pelagian heresy, well, yeah, they believe you can't lose your salvation. Really? Do all of them believe that?
40:26: Yep. Oh, I did not know that. Well, that's the distinctive. That's Chuck Smith's official doctrine.
40:32: Oh, wow, wow. So the Pelagian heresy is my fault alone, and nobody backed me up on that.
40:38: Nobody was teaching that to me at Calvary Chapel. You're right, that needs to be clarified. You might find this humorous.
40:44: In fact, I'm fairly certain you will. One of my new two pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is a confessionally -reformed
40:55: Baptist church, one of them, Simon O'Maney, who is originally from Cork, Ireland, and also spent some time in California here in the
41:05: United States, he was also a member of a Calvary Chapel, and he was told by his
41:11: Calvary Chapel pastor that, beware of Calvinism, because it will turn you into an adulterer and a drug addict.
41:19: And it's kind of an interesting reversal here. You are a drug addict, or at least you were a frequent user of dangerous drugs, and you became a
41:27: Calvinist. And he said he warned Simon, especially stay away from James White and his book,
41:36: The Potter's Freedom. So what did Simon do? He immediately got a hold of The Potter's Freedom, and the Lord used it to bring him to the
41:41: Doctrine for Grace. I'm sorry, but go ahead. Yeah, and I will say that's the first thing I grabbed onto when I became a Calvinist.
41:47: I looked in iTunes, because I was going through all these systematic theology courses that they had for free on iTunes.
41:53: I started searching for Calvinism, and I found The Dividing Line, this amazing podcast, and I listened to all the archives, and just ate it all up.
42:04: And James White always says that, and not trying to pick on Calvary Chapel too much, but it's sort of a funny thing.
42:10: He says the Calvary Chapel famously makes Calvinists because they don't want you to believe it, but they do encourage you to read your
42:17: Bible. And then you do, and you end up with these questions about this thing about election, and Romans 9, and all these things, and you know, yeah, kind of humorous.
42:28: Yeah, and in the 1990s, I don't know if you're familiar with Peter Jeffrey. He's now with the
42:34: Lord in heaven, but he was a friend of mine. He was a preacher and writer from Wales.
42:41: In fact, he at one time pastored the church originally pastored by Dr.
42:46: Martin Lloyd -Jones in Port Talbot, Wales, Sanfields it's called. And Peter used to make frequent trips, or at least annual trips, to the
42:57: United States, and he was a favorite among certain Calvary Chapel folks, and the
43:02: Lord was leading them into the doctrines of grace, and they were either voluntarily or involuntarily leaving
43:08: Calvary Chapel. In fact, a couple of pastors, if I'm not mistaken also, because of hearing the doctrines of grace through Peter.
43:16: And if you don't know Peter, you got to get a hold of his sermons and books. He's written, he had written at least 20 to 30 books at least, but a really powerful preacher of the gospel now in heaven.
43:29: One more thing to move on to. This may be something that scholars can sit around behind closed doors in libraries and so on, debating or arguing over.
43:45: Before, and we will get to this later because this is really the heart of the matter, you were mentioning about all the world's religions being synergistic, and then of course those who believe in the doctrines of grace being monergistic because salvation is all of God.
44:00: I, for the first time ever, I heard someone say that there is a bad monergism too.
44:07: In fact, this was a Calvinist named Jerry Johnson. I don't know if you're familiar with Jerry. He was a part of the production of the
44:13: Amazing Grace videos that you mentioned before. And Jerry actually categorizes
44:21: Pelagianism as monergistic but in a bad way because because Finney, for instance, he said that God has no essential role at all in a man's salvation.
44:33: Charles Finney, who is a full -blown Pelagianist, not even a semi -Pelagianist, and so therefore he is monergistic but not in a good way.
44:42: Wow, yeah, that's interesting. But so you've become a member of a good reformed church and now we are talking about a movie, a documentary known as Calvinist.
44:57: And tell us something about, well let me before we do that, I'm going to at least let a couple of our listeners have their questions heard.
45:06: First of all, I don't know if you're familiar, I don't usually give the full names of people who write in questions, but since I want to give a plug to this brother's ministry,
45:17: I've been a guest on his show and he's been a guest on my show. Dwayne Atkinson, are you familiar with Dwayne?
45:23: Oh yes, absolutely. Yeah, I've been on his show as well. Yeah, so Dwayne, yes, The Bar podcast, and I just chuckle every time
45:32: I think of it, Dwayne gets a little frustrated because people automatically think The Bar stands for black and reformed when it stands for biblical and reformed.
45:41: Biblical and reformed. Yeah, it just so happens that Dwayne happens to be black but more importantly he's a biblical
45:46: Christian. But he asks a very good question, well he asks a couple of them.
45:54: He says, what was your goal for the movie Calvinist? That's a very good question because you already mentioned how
46:02: Amazing Grace, the history and theology of Calvinism, was already in existence and was a part of you coming to the doctrines of grace.
46:10: Why did you say, well we need something else? What was the driving force, what was the goal of this movie, this documentary,
46:17: Calvinist? Yeah, well I wanted to, for one,
46:23: I think one of the coolest things about watching certain kinds of documentaries is just the story, sort of the human interest aspect of it, and the fact that this was sort of a phenomenon that I saw happening all around me.
46:40: I thought that part of it was just a story worth telling. And also,
46:46: I also kind of wanted to bring my own aesthetic to sort of to the whole genre.
46:54: I guess I just wanted to make a movie in the way that I wanted to make a movie, which included a lot of animation and, you know, whenever I would sit down with people and try to explain doctrines,
47:06: I would almost every single time I'd pull out a piece of paper and draw some diagram or something, trying to explain.
47:15: I'm very visual in that way. So I figured it'd just be really fun to be able to use my artistic abilities to try to explain things in these various ways.
47:29: Also, there's the very selfish reason that I wanted to meet all these guys and have them answer my questions, which was a lot of fun.
47:38: But I definitely think that Amazing Grace was one of my big inspirations, and I just kind of wanted to bring it to a new generation, make it a little more compact, not necessarily make his movie again, but bring the teachings and all that to the forefront.
47:59: And also, you know, there's people like, there's parts of the movie that talk about different things, like the dangers of celebrity pastors and the very interesting thing that happened in the hip -hop world, where there was
48:13: Reformed theology was very prevalent through hip -hop, and those are things that I was able to highlight that a more, maybe more serious movie maybe wouldn't have been able to.
48:27: Well, it's actually, though, as I said before, I want to get Shy Lynn on the program, because I happen to be one of those
48:33: Christians who don't find anything wrong at all with rap in a proper setting, as long as there is a key element that is prominent in rap music, especially secular rap music, is absent.
48:50: And that is something that God even counts among the things he hates, which is a haughty look.
48:57: And the rap industry champions haughtiness and arrogance and pride, and I would hope that a biblically -minded
49:07: Christian would not imitate that part of hip -hop and rap when they bring the gospel into it.
49:14: And then I have not seen anything like that with Shy Lynn and some other of the excellent hip -hop artists that are
49:20: Christian. But I also believe that this is something that is not something that I would want to see in a worship service.
49:28: But at the same time, like I said, there are many things, actually, that I love and participate in and enjoy that shouldn't be in a worship service, not just rap.
49:41: But I'd love to get Shy Lynn on to discuss those different things, and even perhaps have somebody that opposes rap, and we can have a
49:49: Christian discussion in a very level -headed and bibliocentric way without getting into an argument or anything like that.
50:00: And we have Duane also asks, what was the harsh criticism that made you think you could have done something different with the movie besides not having me and Chris Arnson in it?
50:15: Yeah, I guess my invitation got lost in the mail or something. That's funny.
50:23: Has there been harsh criticism of this documentary? Well, harsh...
50:30: let's see. There has been criticism. There has been criticism from the people that I would expect it from, like Armenians.
50:39: And it's very interesting the way one Armenian in particular reviewed the movie.
50:45: And he sort of took every criticism I was making about sort of like the shallowness of the
50:52: Church in general as a criticism against Arminianism. So it's almost like he thought that the movie was specifically criticizing
51:03: Arminianism as a theological system, when it really wasn't. It's more of a criticism of the
51:09: Church that we found ourselves in 10 years ago, my generation, and how that led us to find these doctrines.
51:20: So that criticism doesn't hurt, because I expect
51:25: Armenians to not like the movie. But the only other criticisms, there were some articles written by people that just don't like me very much.
51:42: There's some discernment blog -type people out there who think that I am young, restless, and reformed, and I'm trying to promote debauchery and things like this.
51:56: Whatever. Because I enjoy the things Presbyterians have always historically enjoyed. But there was this one specific article that was saying, beer -guzzling hipster makes a movie about Calvinism.
52:13: And then he basically said, I found all these people who said the movie's great, and all the content is great, but you shouldn't watch it, because people like Joe Thorne have tattoos and are known to drink alcohol.
52:30: So it was the funniest article, because he said the movie was great, basically, but he said that you need to steer clear of all these dangerous new
52:40: Calvinists. So that was probably the harshest. The people that I want to enjoy the movie really, really enjoyed the movie.
52:47: So I can't ask for more than that. Well, we are going now to our midway break.
52:53: By the way, thank you, Dwayne Atkinson of The Bar, and I want to give our listeners his website, thebarpodcast .com.
53:04: The Bar stands for Biblical and Reformed, not the alcohol we were just talking about.
53:13: Nor does it stand for Black and Reformed, even though Dwayne happens to be black. It's Biblical and Reformed, thebarpodcast .com.
53:21: We're going to our elongated break. This is our longer break, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1
53:26: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a long break. But use this time to write down questions for our guest today,
53:34: Les Lanphier, and also write down questions, or should I say, write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can properly respond to them and patronize them.
53:49: Once again, our email address, if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
53:59: chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state and country of residence, if you live outside the
54:10: USA, and only remain anonymous if the question involves a personal and private matter.
54:18: And right now we're having, we're having difficulties with the computer here.
54:24: Oh, there we go. But we look forward to hearing from you and your own questions, whether you agree with our guest, whether you disagree, whether you are not certain at all.
54:33: We would love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
54:39: Don't go away, we'll be with Les Lanphier and more on his documentary Calvinist.
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01:03:37: Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.
01:03:43: I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
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01:04:04: Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
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01:04:29: Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.
01:04:42: That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.
01:04:50: Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio. And you can call
01:04:57: CVBBS .com at their toll -free number, 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231.
01:05:05: You can call that number Monday through Friday, typically between 10 a .m. and 4 .30 p .m.
01:05:11: Eastern time when they man that phone line. They do not have a voicemail, so if there's no answer, then just call back the next day during those hours
01:05:21: I mentioned, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern time if you're calling Monday through Friday. Of course, you can order online 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks out of the year at CVBBS .com,
01:05:34: which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. If you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio and you purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise, you will receive absolutely free
01:05:46: A .W. Pink's book, The Holy Spirit, and you will also receive free shipping on your entire order of $50 or more.
01:05:54: Please always remember to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio. Before we return to Les Lanphier and our discussion on his documentary,
01:06:03: Calvinist, we just have a couple of very important announcements to make. Coming up August 2nd through the 4th, the
01:06:11: Fellowship Conference New England is being held once again at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and the speakers at this conference include
01:06:22: Tim Conway, Mack Tomlinson, Jesse Barrington, and Nate Pikowitz. If you'd like to attend that conference, the website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,
01:06:32: fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. All of these men believe firmly in the doctrines known as Calvinism or the doctrines of sovereign grace or reform theology, but the themes are different.
01:06:44: The Fellowship Conference New England is one of those rare conferences where there is no central theme, so each man will bring to you what is burdening his heart at that time to share with you from or should
01:06:56: I say proclaim to you from this scripture. So that's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,
01:07:02: and it's being held August 2nd through the 4th in Portland, Maine.
01:07:07: Please also mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio if you register. Also coming up in November 9th through the 10th, the
01:07:19: Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology at the
01:07:26: Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. That's the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, not to be confused with the
01:07:33: Reform Town Conference on Quaker Theology. It's the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.
01:07:39: The theme is the glory of the cross, and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Wynn, November 9th through the 10th.
01:07:49: I will be manning, God willing, an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth at the conference, so if you register and you attend, please stop by and say hello.
01:07:57: Go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org to register, and we look forward to seeing you there.
01:08:04: Then coming up in January, my favorite of all conferences that I look forward to like a kid waiting to open up his
01:08:13: Christmas presents, that is the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, technically in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta at the
01:08:22: Georgia International Convention Center, and they are expecting over 4 ,000 people this
01:08:28: January at the G3 Conference. It's being held from January 17th, which is a
01:08:33: Thursday, through January 19th, which is a Saturday, and the speakers, a very long list of speakers,
01:08:40: I would think just about as long as the list of speakers on Les Lamphere's documentary.
01:08:46: We have Paul Washer, John Piper, David Platt, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, my favorite of all preachers alive on the planet
01:08:56: Earth, the pastor of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and chancellor of the African Christian University.
01:09:03: Tim Chalies, Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the ministry of John MacArthur.
01:09:10: Josh Bice, my dear friend, who is the director of G3 Ministries, which stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, by the way.
01:09:18: Anthony Mathenia, who is Paul Washer's pastor. Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and the list goes on and on, and if you'd like to register, go to g3conference .com,
01:09:31: g3conference .com. You can also not only register to attend, but you can register for an exhibitor's booth, just like I will be having.
01:09:38: This will be my third year manning an exhibitor's booth at the G3 Conference, God willing, and with 4 ,000 people milling around, it's well worth your investment to sponsor an exhibitor's booth, so you can go to g3conference .com
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01:12:00: That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's also the email address to send in a question to Les Lanthier on his documentary movie
01:12:08: Calvinist. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And let's see here, we have another question from a listener and again
01:12:20: I'm going to mention the full name because when it comes to pastors who are pastoring churches that I believe are biblically faithful,
01:12:27: I like to give them a plug. We have Pastor Jerry Schuman of Ludlow Baptist Church in Ludlow, Vermont who has a question.
01:12:36: Oh and by the way, very quickly, Dwayne Atkinson, I forgot to mention that you have won a free
01:12:41: DVD of the movie Calvinist, so make sure that we have your full mailing address in Greenville, South Carolina so that we can ship that out to you as soon as we get them in our hands.
01:12:51: They are currently in the mail to us by the grace and generosity of Les Lanthier and his ministry, so you will get that as soon as we have an opportunity to mail it out or should
01:13:04: I say as soon as Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, has an opportunity to mail it out to you.
01:13:11: Pastor Jerry Schuman of Ludlow Baptist Church says, in your preparation for and work on the film
01:13:18: Calvinist, what new things did you learn about the modern reform movement that you found to be most encouraging, and what new things did you find to be the most concerning?
01:13:29: For those things that are weaknesses, failings, or sins in the Reformed Church, what counsel or advice would you give?
01:13:40: Well, I think some of the most, the things that I didn't really know that much about,
01:13:48: Stephen Lawson did a really good job of explaining some of the roots of the modern
01:13:56: Reformation, the resurgence, and also Michael Horton had some really good commentary on that too, talking about how it all sort of began with Martin Lloyd -Jones and then, you know, ultimately in Philadelphia with, oh shoot,
01:14:19: I forgot his name, the confessing evangelicals. Oh, you mean James Montgomery Boyce?
01:14:25: Yes, Boyce. In fact, you dedicated the movie to him. How could you forget James Montgomery Boyce? Yeah, I know.
01:14:33: So yeah, with James Montgomery Boyce there in Philadelphia with the conference on Reformed Theology at 10th
01:14:42: Presbyterian, so and then R .C. Sproul and Boyce together had just such a huge influence on promoting
01:14:53: Reformed Theology in America, and then, you know, passing that on to the next generation, and then suddenly
01:15:02: I'm a Calvinist. So that was all very, very interesting to me, and I guess some of the concerning things are the things that are pointed out in the movie.
01:15:14: Some of the cautionary things are the celebrityism of Reformed Theology.
01:15:22: We kind of have all our hero pastors, and I think the solution to that issue is to not put all of your investment, your intellectual and spiritual investment, into these pastors online, but to actually plug in and be really rooted in your local church and your own pastor, and also confessionalism, knowing that there's a lineage here, and there's a history, and we're not making this up for the first time.
01:16:01: That's really, really important, especially in the Reformed world. We have these rich, amazing
01:16:07: Reformed confessions that people have really dug through all this stuff, and there's very few things that aren't covered in these confessions as far as theology goes.
01:16:19: So those are sort of the things that I guess every generation maybe struggles with, and we did as well.
01:16:28: And then another issue in the movie that was brought up is just the idea of race, specifically that Reformed Theology just naturally, throughout the centuries, hasn't seemed to do a good job of reaching minorities and people outside of the intellectual white, you know, predominantly white.
01:16:50: And that's, you know, the solution to that is essentially just love your neighbor and go out of your way to share this theology with them and give them all the same opportunities we would want.
01:17:04: And so... I'm sure you would agree, though, that the complexion of Calvinism has radically changed, at least since I was a
01:17:15: Christian, and when I became a Christian in the 80s, I would go to Reformed conferences, and it would be a very diverse group.
01:17:22: It would be white, off -white, lily -white, you know? But since then,
01:17:28: I have seen quite a large number of African -American, Hispanic brothers and sisters.
01:17:35: I rarely go to a Reformed conference now that doesn't have a reasonably good representation from those brothers and sisters, and it is growing.
01:17:46: And I think that we have to be very careful, I think, also, as I have unfortunately seen, and this is a whole other story that we've already addressed in different shows and will probably address again, but there is an unfortunate thing going on with social justice warriors within the church who are combating racism with racism.
01:18:12: Just that the targets happen to be white, and they are claiming, many of them, I'm not saying all of them, many of them are claiming that they are incapable of being guilty of the sin of racism because they happen to be of a different skin color than white.
01:18:26: And that's a tragedy. It's a lie from the pit of hell. As my dear brother in Christ, Bob Cameron, now in heaven, an
01:18:36: Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who is also a black brother in Christ, as he used to say, racism is a sin problem, not a skin problem, and everybody, no matter what color they are, can be very easily prone toward that wickedness.
01:18:55: Yes, yeah. You know, I'm very politically conservative and all that, but I've even seen some people that reacted to my movie and saying, you know, the whole section on race shouldn't have been in there and all that.
01:19:08: And, you know, I just, all I think that we can do is just listen to each other and don't, you know, if one side says that the other side is making things up, that's not going to help, you know?
01:19:22: And if the other side is saying, you know, you're evil and trying to take over the world and you have no, not a good ounce of goodness in you, within the
01:19:31: Church, these are things that can't be. We have to love one another. We have to listen to each other. We can't be calling each other liars left and right, you know?
01:19:39: So that's really all that we can do, and do everything we can in Christ to love one another.
01:19:45: Amen. Well, thank you, Pastor Jerry at Ludlow Baptist Church. You have also won a free
01:19:50: DVD of Calvinist, produced by our guest today, Les Lanphier.
01:19:56: And for those of you listening, if you live in Vermont or intend to visit there, or if you have loved ones there, the website for Ludlow Baptist Church in Ludlow, Vermont, is ludlowbaptist .org.
01:20:08: That's L -U -D -L -O -W Baptist .org. Thanks again,
01:20:13: Pastor Jerry. Let's see here. We have Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
01:20:20: And I have to enlarge Ted's font on his email because I'm going blind.
01:20:28: And let's see here. Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama says,
01:20:33: I knew this was a very serious project when I noticed while watching the trailer that Stephen Lawson apparently bought himself a new necktie for his appearance in the documentary.
01:20:45: But another thing I noticed is that one of the interviewees in your documentary is identified as a podcaster.
01:20:53: By the way, I don't propose to identify who this is for fear that I will never be allowed to ask a question on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio again.
01:21:01: Maybe this is a generational thing, but podcaster struck me as an odd credential for being interviewed in a theological documentary.
01:21:12: Of course, I haven't seen the documentary yet, only the trailer. Would your guest mind commenting on this?
01:21:19: Wow, what a nitpicker, Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Go ahead. That's funny.
01:21:27: Yeah, pretty much pretty much everybody in the movie is a podcaster. Everyone's a podcaster these days.
01:21:36: He's referring to Summer White, who well, I'm sorry, Summer Yeager, Summer White in the film.
01:21:44: She I asked her what what I should put down for her credentials. She's I could have put
01:21:50: Daughter of James White. That would have been a good credential, I guess. But we settled on podcaster because that's kind of what she's what she's most well known for.
01:22:02: And I interviewed her because I like her a lot. And I was in Arizona and I needed
01:22:09: I also needed a female voice in my movie, which I apparently didn't get enough of.
01:22:15: That is one criticism I got that there weren't enough women in the movie. But you know, you're always going to get never going to make everybody happy.
01:22:22: And of course, you could always get criticism that you have too many women. And Summer is a very, very, very bright young woman.
01:22:31: And yes, she is. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, as they say. Yeah. And in fact, whether you look upon this favorably or with criticism, both of her names before and after marriage sound like cocktails to me.
01:22:49: Summer White is obviously sounds like Chardonnay to me. And and Summer Yeager is also sounds like a mixed drink of some kind.
01:22:57: But anyway, yeah. But anyway, I like that drink.
01:23:03: I'm sorry. That's that is not a good drink. But but thank you very much,
01:23:11: Ted. And you have also won a free DVD of the movie or the documentary
01:23:18: Calvinist. Thank you for writing and make sure we have your full mailing address in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. We have a first time questioner,
01:23:27: Patrick. Patrick does not give us his name. I'm sorry, his location in his city and state.
01:23:34: If you could email it to us, it would be helpful, Patrick. That's why I repeat that so many times. People wonder why
01:23:39: I always go on and on and on about repeating where you are from, your city and state and your country of residence.
01:23:45: Well, this is why, because Patrick didn't do it. But anyway, Patrick, if you could let us know where you are from, that would be helpful.
01:23:53: Good afternoon, brothers. When explaining how God is not the author of sin, I often struggle to do so coherently.
01:24:02: Could you briefly provide an explanation to how I can share this particular thing? And I think that Patrick has actually hit on something that is at the core of the opposition that many have to Calvinism.
01:24:19: They are trying to defend the character of God because they think, wrongly, that Calvinists have invented this monster of a
01:24:30: God who forces people that would otherwise not sin to sin.
01:24:37: As if men are theologically and spiritually and morally neutral, and God, who is playing a chess game from outer space, is making these people who would otherwise go to heaven, he's making them disobey him.
01:24:56: And this is just a very slanderous and false character. And I'm not saying that Patrick is slandering us, but many people, many in ignorance and many purposefully who hate
01:25:08: Calvinism, have constructed this idea of what we believe in their minds. But if you could respond to that.
01:25:16: Sure. Well, I think there's two amazing, necessary doctrines in Scripture that are very clearly taught.
01:25:25: One is that men are accountable, and they will be judged for their behavior, for their actions, and specifically for their sins.
01:25:35: We sin because we want to sin, so much so that we are actually born in sin and unable to do anything but sin.
01:25:44: And even though that's true, we will still be held accountable for every action that we do.
01:25:53: And the other side of that is that God truly has decreed everything that happens, and ultimately that has to include sin.
01:26:06: And when we think about the cross, that's the perfect example of how we know that's true, that God was pleased to crush his son.
01:26:15: He actually crushed his son, but that happened by the hands of sinful men who betrayed their own
01:26:23: Messiah, handed him over unjustly to be executed, and men drove nails into an innocent man's hands and feet, and they killed the innocent son of God.
01:26:37: So that's sin taking place, but God has ordained that that sin would take place.
01:26:44: So both of those ideas have to be held up, and neither of them can be denied, and there is, there has to be some area in the middle, you can say as much as you want about God ordaining everything that happens, and men are still responsible.
01:27:00: There is going to be some overlap there where there's some kind of mysterious intertwining, and that's just a part of the way theology works.
01:27:09: You can't wrap your mind around everything that God has done, but we do know that God is not the author of sin in the sense that nothing
01:27:17: God has decreed is sinful from his perspective, because he's doing all things for our good and for his glory.
01:27:28: So if God ends a person's life, that's not sinful, because God is that person's creator, he is their sustainer, and he has all authority to take that person's life away.
01:27:39: But if I take someone's life, I do not have that authority, and God has revealed to me that I cannot do that lawfully.
01:27:48: So if I take someone's life, I'm in sin. God has decreed that that person's life would end, and he decreed the means that it would take place, but I'm the sinner because my motive is sinful.
01:27:59: God's motive is only for good and for his glory, ultimately. That's how
01:28:04: I would answer. Yes, because even the Arminian has to realize that the death of Christ, as you were describing before, was ordained before the foundation of the world.
01:28:16: This was a thing that would certainly happen, and that does not mean that God forced innocent people to do this, but he did at the same time use human beings who are wicked to bring about the ends of what he had ordained.
01:28:36: And so this is something that all Christians need to grapple with. We just happen to believe that God is so powerful and sovereign that nothing slips by him.
01:28:48: He's not just sitting back watching like a century and doing nothing, which also brings about a problem for the non -Calvinist as to why
01:29:01: God doesn't stop certain things. If he knows all things, why is he just sitting back and watching them? And then, of course, we as Calvinists believe that he brings about everything that comes to pass, but he himself is not guilty of sin.
01:29:16: We have other examples of this, obviously, in the scriptures where you see horrible things happening, and it is clear from the text that God is the one that brought those things to come to pass.
01:29:37: Like Genesis 50, for example. Joseph's brothers throw him into a pit, sell him to slavery, all this evil, but at the very end of the book of Genesis, Joseph explains to his brothers that what you meant for evil, the action being throwing me into a pit and selling me into slavery, you meant that for evil, but God meant that exact same action, me going into slavery, for good, and actually, if he hadn't been sold into slavery and lied about by Potiphar's wife and ended up second -in -command over all of Egypt, then all of the known world would have died, not to mention
01:30:16: Israel and all of the bloodline of Christ. So God was sustaining the bloodline of Christ by having
01:30:25: Joseph betrayed by his brothers, but the brothers weren't forced to do it. It just so happens that their desires fell perfectly in line with God's decree, and that's how it always happens.
01:30:38: Yeah, we even have in 2 Samuel 12, a classic example where Nathan the prophet is splashing a bucket of cold water in David's face and making him realize that he has committed the great atrocities of adultery and murder with regard to Bathsheba and her husband
01:31:05: Uriah, and the Lord speaking through Nathan, this is
01:31:12: God saying, out of your own household, I am going to bring calamity on you.
01:31:20: Before your eyes, I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight.
01:31:30: You did this in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all
01:31:35: Israel. I will do this, he says. That's quite an amazing thing for God to be saying, isn't it?
01:31:41: Yes, it is. Well, thank you very much, Patrick, and we still haven't heard from Patrick where he is from, but if you would like to receive the free
01:31:52: DVD that you have won as a result of writing in, and also since you are a first -time questioner, if you would like to receive a brand new
01:32:01: New American Standard Bible, which we give to all of our first -time questioners, then please give us your full mailing address, obviously off the air, and we will have that shipped out to you.
01:32:12: Thanks a lot for listening, Patrick, and for being a first -time questioner. We are going to our final break right now, and this is a briefer break than normal, and so don't be dismayed that we're going to another station break, but now is your time to write in a question if you intend to write one, because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:32:35: Once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away,
01:32:40: God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
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01:33:58: Iron Sharpens today. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
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01:36:14: Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastors Study every
01:36:20: Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.
01:36:25: www .wlie540am .com.
01:36:31: We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastors Study by calling in with your questions.
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01:36:44: Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.
01:36:49: This is Chris Arnzen. This is our last segment of the program today with our guest Les Lanphier.
01:36:55: We are discussing his documentary movie Calvinist. If you'd like to join us now, do so, or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:37:05: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
01:37:15: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We do have an anonymous listener from overseas, and this anonymous listener says,
01:37:25: I have been an Armenian because I didn't know anything else. The Calvinists I had known had been out with battle swords, and people stood back lest they get their heads chopped off.
01:37:38: Of course, she is using an allegory here. Everybody was allergic to them because of the manner in which they delivered their apologetic.
01:37:47: Meanwhile, I am reading a lot of books on the reformed teaching, and am now of the persuasion that I believe in monergism, that I had absolutely nothing to do with my salvation.
01:38:00: It was all God's work. I understand about three of the five points of Calvinism, but I get stuck when
01:38:07: Calvinists say Christ did not die for everyone, but just for the elect, when Isaiah 53 says the
01:38:14: Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. How do you explain that verse please?
01:38:21: Also, do you have to believe all the five points of TULIP to be reformed as only able to grasp, as I'm only able to grasp three or four at the moment?
01:38:34: Yet, I love the Westminster Catechism. Thanks for taking the time to read this, and she does say something very key here.
01:38:41: Yet. Because we were all in a yet position at one time.
01:38:47: We're not Calvinists yet. But yeah, this is obviously her description of Calvinists at times being out of control with, as they call them very often, cage stage
01:39:00: Calvinists. But even those that live to ripe old ages never leave that cage stage, some of them.
01:39:07: But I've been in Christian media for going back to the 80s, and we're not the only ones that behave with, swing the battle axes.
01:39:18: There are a lot of different theological camps that do that. I think it just has to do with the person's own sinful behavior.
01:39:27: But anyway, if you could respond to our anonymous listener overseas here.
01:39:33: Sure. Well, I'll start by saying the, you're asking if all five points have to be embraced in order to be called reformed.
01:39:43: That's a little difficult answer, just because the word reformed is defined in so many various ways.
01:39:50: J .C. Ryle was a Amaraldian, a four -point Calvinist, and reformed people love
01:39:55: J .C. Ryle, the 19th century Anglican bishop, who was very
01:40:00: Calvinistic in all but one point. And so, you know, the title reformed depends on how much you want it,
01:40:10: I guess. But the five points of Calvinism are logically and necessarily connected.
01:40:20: So I would say that if someone is a three - or four -point Calvinist, it's really just a matter of thinking it through a little more consistently.
01:40:32: And so if you embrace the idea that you had nothing to do with your salvation, in the sense that God is the one who opened your eyes, well, that would mean that you were unable to do so beforehand, so now you believe in total depravity and you believe in irresistible grace.
01:40:51: And if God isn't doing that work to everyone, and he's only doing it to those individuals to whom he chooses to open their eyes, like he did with you, then you also must believe in election, and that was unconditional.
01:41:05: So there's the... you got T, U, and I. As far as the atonement goes, it's really just a matter of defining what that is.
01:41:17: What is the atonement? What's actually happening? Because if it's an actual atonement, a payment, because that's what we're talking about,
01:41:24: Jesus substitutionarily dying on behalf of other people. If Jesus' atonement actually paid a debt, then the debt is actually paid, and that person who was paid for can't suffer for their own sins.
01:41:41: So that means you have two options. Either everyone goes to heaven, and we're universalists, or Jesus only died for those same people who he elected, who the
01:41:54: Father elected before the foundation of the world, and those same people who the Father would, or I'm sorry, the
01:41:59: Holy Spirit would open their eyes. And there's an amazing consistency to that, if you think about it. The Father elected before the foundation of the world, the
01:42:08: Son then pays the debt for that same group of people, and then the Holy Spirit comes in time, in our lifetime, and comes and opens our eyes.
01:42:18: So now we have the Father electing, the Son paying the debt for those elect, and then the Holy Spirit regenerating and opening the eyes of those elect.
01:42:26: So they all have this, they're not contradicting each other. They all have the same group of people in mind, and they're all working on the same group of people.
01:42:35: So it's not that Jesus is trying to save everyone, but the Father hasn't elected everyone, and the
01:42:40: Holy Spirit refuses, you know, to regenerate some of those people that Jesus died for.
01:42:47: And as far as that quote from Isaiah goes, just keep in mind that sometimes in Scripture, you have to remember who the audience is, and that Scripture is directed to Israel, God's people.
01:43:05: Isaiah 53. Yes, Isaiah 53. So he's directing that to the people of God, and he's assuring us, we are now the people of God, that all of our sins, the sins of all of the
01:43:22: Church, all of true Israel, they were actually placed on Christ. And the
01:43:27: Father was pleased to crush him as our substitute. Yes, you said something very key here, because some of the verses that non -Calvinists use trying to attempt to exegete a universal understanding of the death of Christ and the redemption that he provided, they fail to even recognize, and sometimes in the beginning of those letters, like in the
01:43:52: New Testament, you will have a greeting to the brothers and sisters in Christ and so on. So the audience that is being spoken to is very key in understanding when the words all and so on are used.
01:44:07: And also, especially when you're talking about the New Testament, I'm sure you would agree that since we have
01:44:15: John describing who will be worshiping the Lamb in the book of Revelation as those from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, that is a very frequent way that people use the word all when they're describing all kinds of men, all kinds of people, and not every single person that has ever lived.
01:44:38: But the key of the matter is, which you mentioned, is what did Christ do on the cross?
01:44:44: Did he make men redeemable or did he redeem them? And if he redeemed people with certainty, then everybody is going to heaven if he died to definitely redeem everyone for whom he died.
01:45:02: And you have the problem of the universalist, as you said. So as my former pastor
01:45:09: Mike Adash, who you met, used to say in regard to John the
01:45:14: Baptist saying, as Arminians have said to me,
01:45:20: John the Baptist said, behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
01:45:28: And Mike Adash said, yeah, but he also said, who takes away, who taketh away the sin of the world.
01:45:36: So what do you want to fiddle with? What he actually did or the way someone uses the term world, which even in common ordinary speech, people use that phrase word and the word world and the word all, and so on in different ways.
01:45:59: In fact, D. James Kennedy does a very humorous explanation of that in the other documentary that we were mentioning,
01:46:08: Amazing Grace, if you may recall, when he says people use all, all the time.
01:46:15: And he said, I just did it there all the time. Well, are they saying it all the time? If you may remember that.
01:46:23: Well, thank you Anonymous from overseas and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and sending us questions.
01:46:35: We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. In your research, are the younger Calvinists reading, let me start again, in your research, are the younger
01:46:45: Calvinists reading, or I guess you should say, are the younger
01:46:51: Calvinists reading the Reformers? And if so, who did they read the most?
01:46:58: I guess he's talking about like a poll or something that you might have taken amongst younger Calvinists.
01:47:06: Yeah, so I think there was, early on it was like we were kind of reading the celebrity pastors, and once there was kind of like the
01:47:21: Driscoll thing happened, there's a big controversy that happened in Seattle with Mark Driscoll, and there was this sort of, this sort of tension that came upon the movement,
01:47:33: I would say, that caused people to go one of either way. You can, you either like sort of take your tulip and you go back to your non -denominational sort of church, and you're a little
01:47:45: Calvinist -y now. And I would run across all these young people and I would ask them, are you a
01:47:51: Calvinist? And they would say, no. And then I would ask if they'd ever heard of Reformed theology, and they would say, oh yeah,
01:47:58: I'm Reformed. And they weren't, you know, they were going to non -denominational churches, and so they grabbed on to that word because of sort of this movement.
01:48:11: So people really embrace the sovereignty of God now, it seems, in my generation.
01:48:17: They're very much more comfortable embracing it, but they weren't sort of chasing after the tradition of Reformed theology, which
01:48:28: I think is a mistake. That's the wrong way to go. If you're going to embrace this thing, you have to understand that it belongs in the tradition it grew in.
01:48:41: So you can't just sort of take the parts that you like and leave everything else, because it all belongs together.
01:48:47: And our mission as Reformed people, Reformers, trying to Reform the
01:48:54: Church, or at least our own theology, we want to keep Reforming. And that means we want to Reform our view of the
01:49:02: Church, we want to Reform our view of our family, and our view of work, and of every aspect of life.
01:49:10: And that happens through looking at what the Reformers were saying and looking at what the
01:49:16: Bible actually says through the lens of these doctrines. So to answer the question, some of them did start reading the
01:49:27: Reformers, and I think Calvin is probably the most popular. One guy, his work was just released a few years ago, and it's fabulous, and I would say it was one of the biggest instrumental things that convinced me of paedo -baptism, which is why
01:49:46: I'm a Presbyterian now, is Bavink. I'm sorry, we're out of time! Fully kidding, go ahead.
01:49:56: Bavink was just translated into English, and he has this amazing four -volume set that everybody's getting.
01:50:03: It's like $120, and everyone got one for Christmas, and like the sort of the circles that I know online.
01:50:12: So yeah, people are reading Calvin and Bavink, and obviously people like A .W. Pink, and so yeah,
01:50:19: I mean, a large group of these people decided that Young, Restless, and Reformed is a stepping stone into confessional, truly
01:50:34: Reformed theology. By the way,
01:50:40: I want to thank Patrick for letting us know that he's from Kentwood, Michigan, our previous listener who wrote in for the first time, and now you need to give me your full mailing address,
01:50:51: Patrick, if you want to get the free DVD that Les Lanphier and his ministry have provided for us.
01:51:00: Before we run out of time, I think that we should give some appropriate words of caution and warning to our fellow
01:51:09: Calvinists. We may have mentioned this already, but I think it deserves or warrants repeating, that we should never allow these precious truths that we have come to embrace and have become so excited about to elevate our pride as if we figured this out through our own intellect.
01:51:31: The doctrines of grace are meant to humble us to the dirt, are they not? Yes, they are.
01:51:37: There's actually a section in the movie about how our zeal can get out of control, and it's actually called the cage stage in the movie, which is,
01:51:47: I think James White coined that term, and that just means that when you embrace this new set of doctrines, you suddenly are so excited about it that that's all you want to talk about, and you start even questioning the salvation of those who don't embrace it.
01:52:05: James White says that you'd be better served if you were placed in a cage for a few years until you were able to cool off so you couldn't hurt anybody in the meantime.
01:52:14: So yeah, it's a real danger. I went through it pretty hard, and it's not a good look, and you're absolutely right.
01:52:25: The doctrines should only serve to humble us. To make us aware that our only hope is
01:52:32: God and his mercy and grace, and that we rely upon him for everything, and that we cannot brag or boast about anything, and it's just amazing how very often, and now again,
01:52:43: I have to repeat, it's not just Calvinists that do this, but I think Calvinists are the, what's the word
01:52:51: I'm looking for, the phrase that I'm looking for, we should know better than to be proud because other theological systems, even within Christendom, lend themselves to taking credit yourself for things that you do, whereas the theology of Calvinism strips that away, and yet people still want to take credit for it, and they want to look down upon brothers in Christ as if they are inferior or stupid, just because they have had the great insight and wisdom and intellect to figure these things out, as if that was the reason they figured these things out.
01:53:29: I'm saying that tongue -in -cheek here. Yeah, good warning. Now, I wonder if you have heard, and it made me think of it in the beginning of the documentary, where you have all these people saying,
01:53:45: I'm a Calvinist, I'm a Calvinist, I'm a Calvinist, and I'm sure that there are going to be anti -Calvinists who see that.
01:53:51: I'm not disagreeing with your use of that, I'm just saying that there may be Calvinists, even by the sheer fact that you've made this video called
01:53:59: Calvinist, or this movie, I should say, or this documentary, they will say, see, they worship
01:54:05: John Calvin. How do you respond to that kind of thinking? And there are even our brothers in Christ who are technically
01:54:13: Calvinists, but do not at all want to use that label, because they say, I only want to give glory to God, I don't want to give glory to John Calvin.
01:54:20: John Calvin didn't even want a marked grave when he died. He would hate that we're using the term.
01:54:27: So, how do you explain this, and how do you defend we who believe these things as not being idol worshippers when it comes to John Calvin?
01:54:36: Of course, there may be many among us who are sinfully idol worshippers when it comes to John Calvin, but those of us who are not, if you could explain.
01:54:45: Sure. So, it's kind of like saying that, you know, the only title you can ever use for your religious stance is that you're a
01:55:00: Christian, which is great. I love that title, obviously. I love it dearly, much more than I love the title
01:55:08: Calvinist. But if I walk up to somebody and I say, I'm a Christian, and he says, well, he's a
01:55:14: Christian, I mean, we could just settle on that and call it a day, but if we spend any time together, they're going to start to understand that there's some differences in the ways we believe about things.
01:55:28: And so most people, even the people who say, I only claim to be a
01:55:33: Christian, you don't, really. Nobody does. You would at least claim, probably claim to be a
01:55:40: Protestant, if you're not a Roman Catholic, or a Greek Orthodox, or something like that.
01:55:45: Born again. You born, yeah, born again, Christian. So you're starting to sort of narrow down these beliefs, and you may be a
01:55:54: Baptist, or your denomination, or things like that, which most people don't really have a problem with, because there's not a name attached to it.
01:56:03: But the reason we use the word Calvinist is the same reason you would use the word
01:56:09: Baptist, or any other word like that. It's to distinguish your beliefs and give it a nickname that summarizes a bunch of things.
01:56:20: And with Calvinism specifically, it's describing a historic disagreement, a historic sort of schism within the
01:56:31: Protestant church, where, and it's very stark, very stark differences.
01:56:36: They were disagreeing on five major heads of doctrine that dealt with salvation, and they were actually saying,
01:56:46: I believe that God does it all, and the other side was saying, no, I believe that God and man work together in this.
01:56:54: So a very stark schism was present. And at the time, the person who was sort of explaining those things the best, he was dead at the time, both of them were dead at the time, but the
01:57:10: Armenians were following after the most recent teachings of Arminius and the
01:57:16: Calvinists, the person who had defined their belief system the best recently, this brilliant theologian,
01:57:22: John Calvin. So they're not worshiping him, they're saying this, they're giving a nickname to this schism, and you fall on either side of this disagreement.
01:57:34: You're either an Arminian or you're a Calvinist. And we could say Reformed, but, you know, there's, like the
01:57:41: Reformation includes Lutherans to a large extent. There's even, like, the Armenians would say that they were part of that Reformation movement.
01:57:51: We've won the day as far as the title goes, you know, Calvinist and Reformed are somewhat synonymous. But yeah, the only reason we use the title is because it's descriptive, it's a nickname for a system of theology, so I don't have to list off every, you know, 50 different doctrines to let you know what
01:58:08: I believe. I can just say I'm a Calvinist and you understand, for the most part, where I'm coming from. And when you summarize this,
01:58:15: Christians, above all people, have to be very careful about slandering others. And just because you think that somebody's worshiping
01:58:24: John Calvin, it doesn't mean you should be saying that publicly, because most of the time you're a liar when you're saying it.
01:58:30: But we are out of time now, and I know that one of the websites where people can find information about Calvinist, the movie, the documentary, is lesslan, lansphere .com,
01:58:41: your name, dot com, L -E -S -L -A -N as in Nancy, P -H -E -R -E dot com. Any other website or information you care to give?
01:58:49: Yeah, you can go to, you can just type in Calvinist movie into Google, or calvinistmovie .com, and that will take you to that same website that you're talking about, and that'll give you all the options to watch it online.
01:59:03: Calvinistmovie .com. Yep, you can watch it online, you can order a DVD copy, and be on the lookout.
01:59:10: I just announced yesterday, a soft announcement, that I am going to produce another movie, and it's on the subject of worship, and I'm very excited about it.
01:59:20: Oh great, we have to have you back on to talk about that, definitely. Yeah, I'd love to. It's going to be called Spirit and Truth.
01:59:26: Great. Well, I want to thank you so much for being my guest again on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. I look forward to your return to talk about Spirit and Truth.
01:59:33: I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in. I hope you all have a safe and blessed and beautiful weekend and Lord's Day, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater