Assurance Of Salvation (pt-2)

Just swim around the ocean. Well, why'd you make that God? Well, I just like to see it swim. I thought that is so good. All right, just a few announcements before we start tonight and talk about assurance.

I was preaching at Omaha Bible Church last Sunday morning when I first walked into the church. There were two people there some people that you all know people that used to sit right there. And so when I preached at OBC, they have a little bit different seating.

And so they sat front row center. Wes Jamison and Luke Jamison. And so Scott Farah had let Wes know that I'd be in town and my mother was sick and so I walked in and little Luke had a postcard for my little Luke and Wes had a big bag of Angela's special cookies.

And he just said we love you and we wanted to come and support you and I thought that was pretty neat. He got up earlier in the morning early in the morning and drove about 160 miles down. And just sit there and I thought that was just so sweet.

So then he's like, you know, what are you gonna preach to me. I said, I don't really feel like really giving it to him. But I probably did. I mean that was a really sweet of Wes and Luke. Can I tell the story about your husband, oh, I'll do that too.

Well, let's start with Anne Garcia first. Anne Garcia's sister-in-law did die. This morning we've been praying for Lynn and the family for a long time and Lynn isn't sick anymore. Lynn isn't crying anymore, but it's hard to lose a loved one and you might want to call Anne Garcia this week.

And just say we love you and praying for you. What could we do for those of you that don't have a directory? Would you email BBC staff at Juno and just ask for a directory picture directory? And we'd love to send you one.

They're nice to kind of see the people and learn some of the names and you can just pray for the people. I think a directory is good for phone numbers. So then you don't have to call me for the phone numbers, but it's also good to just pray through and I'm sure it's been hard for Anne and the family.

But make sure you call her. I heard about Lewis and he'll be home what which day February 18th, Lewis Brown will be back for those of you that don't know him. He's an elder here. He's been working in Iraq to restore some of the radio systems there.

Then we'll decide to see what happens when she once he gets back. That is great. What else? It's gone for the whole week once I left Omaha I was at the Stephen Alford Center for expository preaching which I got credit for at Southern Seminary for school my last class before the year-long project and I just sat there thinking I am so blessed as a recipient of Good teaching at Master's Seminary.

To see MacArthur model expository preaching week in and week out and to be taught by the minute Master's Seminary. Many pastors from all around the country not associated with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

But just other pastors not even knowing about expository preaching not understanding and I thought Lord I've been such a recipient of good teaching and good modeling and it's not that I know everything you all know that I don't know everything.

But I've been taught and I know at least what the goal of expository preaching is and some Sundays I do it better than others, but just to sit there thinking God you have been so good to me. Lots of men not understanding any of the issues and how to preach and what to do.

I probably picked up some slang and with all the Southerners there, you know, this is not a pulpit. You know, if you're a Southern Baptist or you live in Memphis, you know what this is called, don't you?

A pulpit when you get up into the pulpit I Didn't eat any grits this last week or any okra or anything like that. I was kind of on the Atkins diet. So but it just was really a neat time. Thank you, by the way for praying and for being encouragement.

I know I said it this morning, but it really means a lot. We'll learn more this week mom goes to the consultation Tomorrow for the surgeon and then they'll decide what kind of day surgery to do to check out things and and there we'll see What happens but we know the Lord is good and faithful and I Just couldn't preach Ephesians 5 this morning.

It's like I just there's no way I can preach that. Actually, you can be praying for mom as well. I think she's going to speak to her ladies group this week if she can she's the she's the equivalent To Dallas Brown except at Omaha Bible Church, and so she's the ladies Bible teacher.

She is the easiest way to think about it. And so I said mom you were gonna have the ladies ears. You just teach to teach them and tell them what God's Word says. I think that is about all I have. Let me recommend a couple books.

Some reason I think I'm forgetting something but I Don't know This one. I want to commend you not just this book, but several they're called series books. And this is called for Christian views. And so what they do is there's all kinds of controversies in Christianity.

And so they'll take four different views that are all within the pale of orthodoxy and a different author will write his view. This is divorce and remarriage and then the other three writers will write their short rebuttal why they think that position is wrong.

And so there are four main views in Christianity when it comes to divorce and remarriage. One no divorce and no remarriage to divorce, but no remarriage. Three the Biblical model that we would follow here at least we think is biblical divorce and remarriage for adultery or desertion.

And then number four divorce and remarriage under a variety of circumstances. It's just an excellent way to study. You can study in time books like this. You can study war books like you know is it proper to go to war.

Just excellent because you can see the other views. And still you have to have your Bible out to see what you really believe. I want you to believe things of this church not because we teach them. That's a good place to start.

But I want you to believe what we teach because you own it. And then lastly I just had to show you this. If you get a doctorate in preaching you probably have to read liberal books about preaching. So I have read so many liberal books in the last year preaching.

It's not even funny. I've read a lot of other books, but I've read liberal books too, and this one's called David Buttrick's homiletic. You don't have points you have moves, and it's four hundred and I want to say seventy pages.

And I'll just give you a little insight. On page 458 the last full page in the book by the way. I do not recommend this book. David Buttrick by the way is the kind of guy that will come to a class if you invite him.

He'll just take a bottle of Jack Daniels and take a couple shots. Just right in front of you as he's teaching you how to preach just to push the end of the world. He'll curse in the pulpit. It's just it's just an abomination and You can tell by this.

So let us be willing as pastors. To say boldly that it is possible to preach the Word of God without so much as mentioning Scripture. Last full page of the book. How do you preach. You don't need the Bible?

My gag reflex starts when I start reading that. I mean what else could we do. Why else would you come here? So give a little pep talk. We want to hear God's Word so. Just amazing all right. I think we're probably ready now.

I guess we've been taped. Quite a while. Let's get our Bibles open please and we're gonna talk tonight about assurance. I think what we'll turn to first is First Samuel 16 7 as you're turning there. Several Sunday nights ago.

We did this small quiz on assurance. How you can know that you can have salvation. And I think in the future on Sunday nights. I we may do parables. We may do the book of Revelation. I'm not sure exactly what we'll do.

I'm also thinking about the book of Ruth, and we'll just see when I'm back in the pulpit. I don't know when I'll go back home to Omaha again, but for tonight. We'll look at assurance. We'll look at some difficult verses in the one of the next few Sunday nights as well.

Steve will be preaching next Sunday night. No, we should do while I'm thinking about let's have some snacks and stuff like that for next Sunday night. I don't know who wants to be responsible, but if somebody can coordinate.

Let's get some food bring some food buy some food. Bill were you were responsible for that before weren't you would you would you and your wife do that? You know the Falcons are expecting you all know that.

When's the due date. July 1st isn't that exciting and a J. Do you have any news that we might be all privy to or no? He's engaged. So you sit on that front row things happen, there's an advantage of sitting close to the front.

That's and and the wedding date is July 25th. 23rd. Okay good, and well there'll be. Ceremony will be in Buffalo, but then will you go back home to Hyderabad and have another ceremony kind of a post marriage ceremony.

It'll be a reception there. Just exciting to be with other Christians and see what God does for them. It gives them wives and children, and he's certainly very good. Well. We're talking about assurance, and we did it in quiz form.

You may not have your quiz. And we have only a few questions left. Well, let me just give you these quiz questions first as we get up to number eight number one assurance is not a very important and vital issue.

True or false. Well, so it's a very important thing to know that you are going to go to heaven. Secondly people can have assurance of salvation and still perish. In other words there can be a false assurance.

True, that's exactly right. Three the most popular religion in New England calls assurance of sin. It's called the sin of presumption. That's true. Number four you can know for sure if you're saved. By the way, when does a when does eternal life start the moment you believe right eternal life?

Five. God did not have to tell us that we could have assurance. He could just say you believe on the Lord Jesus and We'd end up in heaven one day thinking wow we made it you didn't have to tell us. But I think that's another good pleasure of God.

Number six assurance stems from other doctrines. In other words the more you know about. Sure other doctrines the more assurance you could have. True or false. Absolutely true. Seven you can take yourself from God's hand.

You can lose your salvation not because someone can take it away from you. But if you decide to jump out of God's hand you can false. Okay now. We'll go to number eight. We'll spend most of time on number 12, but tonight we'll begin with number eight.

And again, we just want to work through what the Bible says about assurance because it's very very important. It's hard to sleep if you don't have assurance. It's hard to function in life, and we want to give people the sweetness of knowing.

I know if I die today for instance with my mom. People would call the phone and they're very very concerned and it was just so sweet to hear say I know I'm going to heaven. This is not theory. This is not a hypothesis.

This is not anything except a fact based on Calvary. I'm going. And she was quite sure of it, and if I didn't think she was going to go to heaven. We will not so we would not sit down and plan Funeral services and mom what's your favorite song?

I don't did I tell you this morning what her favorite song was his victory in Jesus. I said we're singing that first. I mean, I hope she lives a long time with some of the news We've been getting lately and that could in fact be true but when you know.

For instance with John Wesley saying Christians die well Christians with good doctrine and a good doctrine of assurance they die even better. Knowing that we're safe and secure from all alarms even on the deathbeds.

We can have insurance. Number eight says it's a little I'm just trying to Push you to think number eight suicide. Killing yourself yields in a loss of salvation. If someone saved truly saved and regenerated and they commit suicide can they undo the work of God?

Answer. No, what would be some thoughts though about that? What are some other questions that might come into our mind? Well first of all we have to think properly because if you have my background as a Lutheran I was taught that I cannot die with any unconfessed sin.

It'd be pretty hard to confess that sin. After you've killed yourself, right? I mean you have to try to calculate exactly when to do it and hopefully you could say something as you were doing it and so.

If you think of justification in terms like that God has forgiven you every sin past present and future. Christ is paid for those sins. Then God the Son has lived a perfect life and you get credit for that.

So if you're truly saved you can't lose your salvation. Now does this mean we should go commit suicide because we can't take the world? Obviously not in Romans 6 would teach us. We are not the sin that grace might abound.

But if someone commits suicide, what are some other questions you might ask or how would you figure this out? Well, let me even push it further since there was nobody responding right away. Is there an example in the Bible where someone killed himself or herself and we know for sure they're in heaven.

I'd probably be a good place to start someone who killed themselves and we know for sure in heaven now you might say Saul. Saul kind of tried to run himself through and it had another guy involved and everything, but we're not really sure about Saul.

I hope Saul's in heaven, but I I would guess that he probably isn't but I'm not the judge. If I was a judge, I probably wouldn't let me in either. I Wouldn't want to judge my son on behalf of someone else.

Is there someone in the Bible who's in heaven who committed suicide mark? All right, where is that found Samson? Let's go to Hebrews chapter 11 now. You might say that's not really fair. He was trying to kill everybody else.

So he knew he was going to die it's at least it's a closest we can get and the good news when you look at Hebrews chapter 11. You think of a sandwich and the sandwich is this. Hebrews 11 is the middle.

It's the meat the first part of the Bread, the first layer of bread is Hebrews 10 at the very end of 10. I want you to read the Bible with context and chapters. And if you look at 1039 we are not those Who shrink back to destruction but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

We're not going to shrink back. We're going to make it to the end. Well, then if you look at the beginning of chapter 12. Therefore since we have so great a cloud of witnesses. This is the bottom part of the bun a bottom part of the sandwich.

Surrounding us let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us and let us run with Endurance the race that is set before us. So you've got carry on to the very end. We're gonna keep running and keeping our eyes on Jesus and in the middle there are real-life examples of people who've done it and one of them if you look in verse 32 is Samson.

I Mean, how did Jeff them make it into heaven? Well, he did but what about Samson? What shall I say for time will fail me if I tell of Gideon Barak Samson Jethro of David and Samuel and the prophets Who by faith conquered kingdoms perform acts of righteousness obtained promises and shut the mouths of lions?

Quench the power of the fire of fire escape the edge of the sword from weakness. They were made strong became mighty in war put foreign armies to flight women received back. They're dead by resurrection and the others were tortured not Accepting their release so that they might obtain a better resurrection.

And it's even more think about the sustaining grace of God to the end on a side note. You want to know if God can give you grace to the very end and give you assurance of eternal life. Look at how they finished and others experienced mockings and scourging.

Yes also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned. They were sawn in two by the way I think that was Isaiah the tradition said they were tempted they were put to death with the sword. They went in about in sheepskins and goatskins being destitute afflicted ill-treated.

I Mean the list goes on one thing. I know is Samson's in heaven. You agree with that. You say well, he died righteously. The one good news is he lived for so long so long as life unrighteously. I can't believe when I read Samson that he's in heaven.

Can you we read that story to the kids? And people a Samson is just a scoundrel a Scallywag as we call him in our house you read and you just say what is this man doing? Well, we only get a little snippet of his life.

And so his whole lifestyle I think had been changed and I think he got saved later in his life before earlier. But Samson is in heaven and this is the closest illustration you can get to somebody killing themselves and still going to heaven.

There are people that do insane things and God forgives them of those things doesn't he. For us when we do insane things like sin any sin any sin is insanity. We have an opportunity afterwards to say God that was stupid.

I didn't you know, I please forgive me. I'm sorry I don't want to do that again that the fames Christ's name and God gives us parental forgiveness again. He's already forgiven us. Positionally, but Samson never had that chance.

I believe that if a Christian a true Christian commits suicide He doesn't undo his salvation. Does he glorify God in the way he dies? No. Can people around just grieve and say that was the most selfish thing that someone could do?

Yes. On the flip side of someone commits suicide and they've lived a whole life of just a lot of lip service for God and saying They're a Christian then you have to ask yourself the question. Are they saved or not?

Questions my real point is this if God forgives you past present and future. Won't he forgive that sin of suicide the day? He saved you and knew ahead of time all the sins you'd commit true. The answer is true.

I mean who would want to commit suicide? That is just not the way to go out. Questions about this one. Yes, Jonah. Assisted death. Well the jack-of-orchean kind Jack got his justice and his justice was jailed because I don't think it's man's Responsibility to say well, this is by life is viable in this one isn't.

Well, that's a very good question. We as a family two weeks ago talked and said Do we want to do not resuscitate order and do not resuscitate is when people are so sick and they go into cardiac arrest.

If there's a DNR there, we won't resuscitate and they'll just die and so we talked about that a little talked a little bit as a family and Isn't that super hard and that a hard thing to talk about. What do I think?

Well, I'll just play with you for a minute. What do I feel about it? I feel very emotional because I'm living it at the moment. What do you do when your mom goes into cardiac arrest and you know if she comes out of it?

She's just going to be given a bunch of more chemo and die soon. Anyway, selfishly. I want her to be alive. Unselfishly. You might as well meet your master face-to-face. What a day that'll be. I'll fly away.

Oh glory. I'll fly away. I mean I think about heaven now. I think about my mother. I think you're going to have to ask God for wisdom. I think for those that want to just get rid of their family members and have do not resuscitate right away because They want the money or something like that.

I'd say no. I'd say if someone was a Christian I as a pastor would tell the family members Put I want you to resuscitate them as many times as possible. So while they're alive, they have the opportunity for God to save them.

So who would want to do not resuscitate on your death on your bed if you're not a Christian. And those are probably the ones that do. So you were gonna you were gonna have a follow-up question To that.

Oh the lady down in Florida. Well, I think that was a scam. I think the guy wanted the money. The millions and he already had another girl or some more kids or something. He was just selfishly wanting his wife to die so he could get out of the marriage agreement and near the other and so.

Unless the Lord Jesus will pay for that sin or has paid for that sin. All right, let's keep going. I Mainly threw that one in there because I want you to know there's not a sin that a Christian can commit.

To lose what God has done. You didn't save yourself and you can't unsave yourself. And I know if God calls you in Romans 8. What's the final link of that chain in Romans 8? He'll glorify you. All right.

Let's go to this next one. Number nine all people true or false struggle with assurance of salvation. Let me say it this way. Is there anyone here who's never struggled with assurance so far? I've met two people in my life that have never had a doubt that they're a Christian.

If you don't want to raise your hand, but it's few and far between. That you'll meet somebody like that. I think all people struggle with assurance of salvation. Do you know why? Because we all sin and when you sin, sometimes you don't feel saved.

I'll talk more about this later. Let's keep going number ten. You were to give assurance to other Christians. Very very tricky. Very tricky either way you answer this you're wrong. Okay, now here's what I was after when you meet someone and they say I'm a Christian and I want to pray and I want To receive Christ and I want to believe and and I want to make a decision for Christ whatever terminology they use.

That's when I think you have to be the most careful because as you have your Bibles open to first Samuel chapter 16 verse 7. It says what bill what's it say? Ajay, ajay, what does it say? The Lord looks at the heart.

This is not a context of assurance this has nothing to do with assurance, but when someone says I'm a Christian and they're brand-new and and For whatever whatever way they've they've heard the gospel.

We don't know if someone's saved or not. When they're a brand-new Christian, there's some people in this room that we do know they're saved. Why I say do you know it's Fred how many people we can just do this Fred Tebow?

How many people think Fred Tebow is a Christian? I can't believe you didn't raise your hand Bill. Fred you talked to Bill afterwards. How do we know Fred's a Christian. I can't see his heart. Because we know the fruit that the Spirit of God gives a man or a woman but Fred's a brand-new Christian.

Hey, I'm a Christian and we go telling him you're a Christian. You're a Christian for sure. You're saved. That's what I want you to be very careful of you can say if you have truly repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ is death burial and resurrection.

You shall be saved. Can we say that? If you truly believe God has forgiven you all your sins past present future. Could you say that? Absolutely. And so if we say well as Mark Schaefer a Christian is is a Dallas Brown a Christian.

We can see a lifestyle of not perfection, but of what? Direction we see the direction of their life. I always love to say it's like, California real estate. It's always going as it speaks in valleys. We say that's a changed life.

But I just want you to be very careful, especially those of you that have kids young kids. They love you. They'll mimic you. They'll do things to please you and when your kids say daddy, I'm a Christian I believe in Jesus and they may break down emotionally.

They may cry. But you want to be very careful not to give them the rubber stamp of approval and say you're in the kingdom. And now when you fall away in your teen years, you're saved and don't let you in.

Anybody tell you any different what you say is that was that's so great. I'm so glad you love Jesus. Oh, it's incredible and you can throw a party and you can celebrate and then as time goes on you just keep affirming their decisions.

They're ongoing trust in Christ. You have to be very careful. So that's what I was after here because there is a kind of soil that has a seed setting on it. And when there's trouble what happens like we learned this morning you receive the word with joy and still aren't Christians.

So that's to me one of the downfalls of saying Everyone who's a Christian come up to the front and then I'll tell you now. You're a Christian and don't let anybody ever tell you any differently. Mainly assurance is the work of the Spirit of God not of people.

Now if I meet one of you and Let's just keep using Fred as an example and Fred's walks in and I use Fred because he would not be an example of this. But Fred comes in my my study and says Mike. I'm really struggling.

I don't know if I'm saved or not. I can say to Fred Fred tell me what's going on your life and stuff like that because in fact, maybe you aren't a Christian. But you sure acted like a good Christian for many years and let's talk about not your salvation.

But let's talk about how you can have assurance and what's going on in your life and things like that because we see track record over time, right. I Just want people to be careful here that when you meet someone and they say yes, I'm a Christian.

Especially in this culture come to Christ. Your marriage will be fixed. You'll make more money. You'll have the full abundant life. And then when things cave in what happens? Where's the gospel that says deny self pick up the cross follow Christ repent of your sins.

It's not being preached very often. So I just want to make sure we're very careful. The general pattern of people would be first John 5 3 4. This is the love of God that we keep his. What? Commandments.

Christians are people that keep commandments. All right. Let's go to the next one number 11. It is rare to meet someone who has never struggled with assurance that almost sounds like the other one. It's it is rare.

Listen what Thomas Brooke says our knowledge of God of Christ of ourselves and of the Blessed Scripture is Imperfect in this life. How many people know? Doctrines of God perfectly. You may get a test you may get a hundred on your test perfectly, but it's not perfect.

By the way, one of you men taught me something of the day. I think it might have been Bob done that. Or no, it was Dan Rathbun. I think no memory loss in heaven. Now you study these great doctrines of God.

Oh, it's precious Lord. You're precious and You've had experiences where God has been so faithful and then you kind of forget them. It's like emphasis you lose your first love in heaven all the special things.

Just keep added addition upon addition upon addition. Say Oh everything I've learned and you'll keep learning in heaven. You'll have the mind of Christ and you'll know as much as a glorified person could know but you can still know more.

I Love school and obviously I'm still going to school. But I get to go to class in heaven. God teach me more. I thought I knew about holiness, but I don't have a clue. Really? Come on just all day long and I don't even have to take notes and I won't lose anything in my mind.

But Brooke says our knowledge is imperfect in this life, so how can our assurance be perfect? People struggle with assurance. Don Whitney said if Spurgeon experienced occasional doubts about his salvation the less gifted I would say all of us.

The less gifted should not consider themselves strange for struggling with doubts. You are not abnormal if you have occasional doubts about whether you are a Christian. I remember here's my life I get saved not a doubt in the world.

I was a Flamethrower Rambo for the Lord. Come what may you said something's never changed. And Then maybe after about five years I started to have a few doubts. And I never blew out of the faith or anything like that, but I had some doubts and in the last Five years, I don't want to say I've never ever had a doubt, but pretty much doubt free of Christian living.

When I had doubts, let's turn to Galatians chapter 2. I would go to the strange passages. We could go to first John in a little bit. We'll go to 2nd Peter, but I want to take you to Galatians and this may help you.

I hope one day When you are experiencing doubts, I'm not hoping that you have doubts. But I know you will when you're having doubts. I want you to remember Calvary plus and minus nothing. I think it's going to be very helpful.

At least it has been in my life and you wouldn't think of Galatians as a kind of help me with assurance chapter, but look at chapter 2 verse 16 and the point here is Your obedience does not add to the cross for your salvation.

Therefore It is strictly Christ and his death his burial his resurrection and belief in that and so at the end of the day you say I don't feel Like a Christian, but I believe my eternal life staked upon the fact that Jesus died for my sins.

There's no other way to heaven and I'm basing my my children's lives, too I'm gonna teach them nothing other look at verse 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law. But through faith in Christ Jesus even we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not By works of the law since by works of the law.

No flesh will be justified. I Can't come up with my faith. I can't keep my faith. That's all of God if you look at verse 1 of chapter 3 you foolish Galatians Who's bewitched you before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

This is the only thing I want to find out from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing with faith? There's the obvious answer. Are you so foolish having begun by the Spirit?

Are you now being perfected by the flesh? Verse 6 even so Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. And I just say Lord, I'm struggling with assurance, but I believe that the only way of salvation is through your son.

I can't go any other option. This is it for me. I didn't come up with my own faith and I can't even keep my faith by being good. And so God if there's sin in my life show it to me. There must be sin because if I didn't have any sin, I'm going to be having a high level assurance.

So when you doubt your faith you get back into the Bible you say Lord you have to show me All right. Now here's what I mainly wanted to do tonight and let's hope we have time to do it Before we get there.

I met a man this week. His name is Stephen Olford and he's 86 and he's. He's almost like an English Billy Graham. How many people have heard of Stephen Olford very popular in the Keswick movement and higher life movement faithful man.

One of the neatest things I learned this week is just watching his wife interact. She just loves him and he loves her and it's just neat to see 86 year old godly couple. Who just love each other and they're just going on each other and I just was watching him going and this is just really neat.

And he was telling me stories. We had a lunch one day and he was kept telling me the stories about how he was the one who introduced Tozer to Lloyd-Jones he was a pastor of a church in in Manhattan and then some other places we set up.

I can't do his accent but he's kind of brought and you know Stephen Alford does nothing in second gear, it's all first gear and So you'll be sitting there and someone will come and see Dr. Alford, would you like some more tea?

I'll have some more tea. And I was worried because I was the first one to graduate from the seminar and so a Abendroff and I had to go up there and he's waiting. Shake his hand son get my diploma and I have to walk over to dr. Alford and I shake his hand and he's it.

Congratulations. God bless you and Everybody's just cracking up and when he preaches God. And I thought people in New England think I'm wacky. Let him let Alfred come in here. And so you're just talking the day I introduced Tozer to the Lord.

I mean, he's fired up. He's 86. Matter of fact, he got diagnosed just a couple years ago with cancer and he's fighting it and. And to the Southern Baptist. This is nothing because that's how their pastors always are.

Better come to the note. New England got a windchill up here. So I'm not as bad as you think I am. Where was I? Oh, he's introduced Tozer to Martin Lloyd-Jones. He would tell me the story when CS Lewis would come and hear him preach and come in the back room and his personal Like limousine guy would come and just sit there for hours while Stephen Alford would talk to CS Lewis.