A Clarification on the Trinity for a Muslim/Brannon Howse on the Hagmann Report

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and greetings welcome to the dividing line it is a unusual day for us to be doing this it's a wednesday uh i actually have the services this evening that's why i'm a little fancier dress than normal but um welcome to the program we have a lot to get to today i'd like to start off with something uh edifying before going to uh other strangely not edifying things but uh hopefully useful and somewhat necessary to address anyways and um so i was i saw a video posted and i listened to it and since it invites a christian response i thought well this is exactly why we do what we're doing there's there's different levels of understanding on the part of our muslim friends in regards to what it is we actually believe and i honestly think that one of the reasons that that some people again the the refusal to recognize that there are different kinds of muslims there are different muslims with different levels of understanding of of other world religions or their own religion for that matter uh leads a lot of christians to attempt to compare muslims to religions in the west and so yeah there are times when you can talk with a muslim and it sounds like you're dealing with a standard jehovah's witness standard jehovah's witness argumentation against the deity of christ something like that but then all of a sudden it'll take a hard right turn or left turn or all of a sudden it'll change and you realize that yeah well okay the only thing they really had in common is they were denying the deity of christ and a lot of people are just afraid to engage in these topics because of all the complications and and things like that this is a video from a muslim now i know muslims with significantly greater understanding of christian theology than this gentleman has but they're the unusual muslims especially muslims from other countries rarely have had meaningful in -depth conversations with articulate well -trained christians and especially christians who recognize the need to be able to express christian theology in a way it's understandable to someone on the other side now obviously christians who live in a majority muslim country they recognize the need of being able to communicate uh to the muslim people so much of for example what we're going to be listening to from steve camp uh demonstrates steve camp is an american and doesn't go anyplace else uh because the apologetics of ignorance you don't need to know what anybody else believes just you just gotta know the gospel well that sounds great it has a tiny modicum of truth to it if you're talking about brand new christians um but it has nothing to do with what it's like to live as a christian in a muslim majority country because they recognize being in the minority that if they want to reach out to the other side that it's going to be up to them to build the bridges of communication and that requires them to have the materials to build the bridges and the only way to get the materials to build the bridges is to do study is to is to understand what the other side is saying to actually interact not just read christian books about the other side to actually interact with side i remember i i was 19 years of age when i started studying mormonism and i read a bunch of christian books on mormonism but at 19 years of age i recognized that that wasn't enough that if i was gonna be talking to mormons i needed to understand what mormons actually believed from mormons now did i learn stuff from reading what christians had learned from talking to mormons yeah but that's a that's a that's a step removed i did but that automatically introduces a an element of reinterpretation and sometimes not all that accurate reinterpretation i remember man it was uh it it woke me up when i first uh realized uh remember the dj nelson uh stuff uh you know one of the first books i read on mormonism was maze of mormonism by walter martin well there were problems in the book and so if your primary sources are just christian sources all you're doing is moving things one one step back if you if you somehow feel like you're going to get your hands dirtied or something uh by engaging and talking with these folks firsthand well if you just read christian books about those subjects somewhere down the line somebody still had to do the original research somebody still had to do uh you know the talking and the witnessing and and things like that are you really accomplishing anything by just keeping it doesn't make any sense so anyway uh people in muslim majority nations recognize the need to understand so as to be able to communicate with clarity if you don't understand what the other person's thinking then you are increasing the probability that you're going to end up well going down blind alleys how many times i've spoken with christians down through the decades and their biggest complaint was well i i thought i was prepared but man i got into this conversation i thought things were going well and then all of a sudden we i just discovered we hadn't really been communicating all along and it's like well yeah that's that's because you didn't understand what they were saying here at this point at this point this point by the time you realized that they were over here and you were over here you're out of time and you weren't able to accomplish anything so you will encounter different kinds of muslims with differing levels of understanding and hence the questions that they will ask about your faith now here is a muslim and he's going hey uh in light of what you all say about the trinity what about this verse what about that first how does how does this make any sense this is street level in the taxi cab uh if you go overseas get out of america uh type every day need to be ready christianity and so saw this video i thought hey let's start off with this and uh i know people who watch this program they'll contact this guy he'll watch it uh i don't know him individually i don't know personally but but he'll he'll see us so we're gonna we're gonna respond because he asked we'd like to hear what the christians have to say about this we'd like to understand what the how the christians can understand this and so cool let's uh let's actually do what we're criticized for doing uh before we talk more about that criticism so here's um are you getting you got everything over there okay and i'm plugged in sound wise so we're good there all righty we're professional around here ready set go in this short video we want to discuss as i mentioned a very touchy topic a very touchy verse in the bible and i'm being um full of pun when i say that because this event actually lends to uh a very physical experience that occurred as relates to the triune god in the bible this event is when the conception of jesus was announced to marry peace be upon her when the conception of jesus peace be upon him was announced to marry peace be upon her now i'm going to read the story that's found in luke the first chapter of luke but i want us to keep in mind throughout the story the doctrine of the trinity and what the christians believe as it relates to it then i will pose a question hoping that any christian can come and clarify and explain this to us because remember this is for the sake of clarity so there you go i think for the sake of clarity we will respond that's uh that's exactly how we should do it and the christians are famous for telling us that we're always getting the trinity wrong and that we are misrepresenting their faith or their doctrine so well yeah because that happens a lot um and and it goes both ways there there's a lot of misrepresentation of islam as well no question about it uh so yeah there's there needs to be clarification on both sides but may i just suggest that there is one important thing that i think muslims need to keep in mind and that is your ultimate authority the quran comes after our scriptures i know you believe it's eternal all the rest of that stuff but historically speaking uh nobody ever quoted from the quran until after you know the late 7th century um our 7th century uh this historically speaking and so there is a necessary relationship because the quran acknowledges the previous existence of and so there is a necessary relationship that exists because the nature of the quran and the content of the quran to the hebrew and greek scriptures that make up the christian scriptures and so the the question that it that simply cannot be ignored but is almost never addressed by my muslim friends is what solid evidence do you have not assumption but solid evidence do you have that the author of your sacred text actually understood the sacred text which your text says were sacred they were nuts all they were sent down they contain light and guidance right what evidence do you have that the author of your text accurately understood our text and especially what it teaches concerning this doctrine of the trinity um did the author of the quran understand that our scriptures teach there's only one true and eternal god creator of all things yaweh is his name in the old testament that there are three divine persons spoken of in the new testament scriptures the father son the spirit they're not confused with one another they are distinguished from one another and the spirit is not an angel the spirit is not jabril uh three divine persons and then that the new testament scriptures identify father son and spirit as yahweh while distinguishing between them define specifically identify each as yahweh did the author of the quran understand that i have never seen in the years now of studying islam i've never seen anyone even try to mount an argument that the author of the quran understood that not once um the best islamic apologists that i know i think recognize can't do it it's not possible there the the the sources are insufficient to to demonstrate that and i think that's important i've met almost no muslims that have ever thought about why that would even be important one of the reasons that we do what we do is because we want to raise the really important issues and one of the reasons that i don't use a lot of the standard argumentations used out there is because i don't want to fog the issue with stuff that's you know might have relevance over here you know but doesn't really help us get any closer to the real issues of the truth claims of christianity and islam so that's a question i would have is you know you say we keep saying you misunderstand it could it possibly be that there is a systemic foundational definitional misrepresentation of christian theology and christian belief within the quran itself that creates this misunderstanding of the part of muslims because you're looking backwards at what we believe through the lens of the quran if that lens is distorted in any way wouldn't that explain it could that be why this issue exists i i'd invite you to consider uh whether that would be the case out of that we're going to pose a question and instead of us trying to tell us or tell people what this means we want to ask a question and want the christians to come explain to us what this means in light of their doctrine that way you won't accuse us of misrepresenting your doctrine or getting it wrong rather we are seeking clarity of it and we're hoping that you can explain it to us now the event that took place as mentioned is found in the book of luke the first chapter of luke starting at verse 28 to verse 35 i'll read i'll explain i will ask the question and then we leave it to our christian friends to come and clarify this for us starting at verse 28 it reads the angel went to her meaning mary and said greetings you who are highly favored the lord is with you mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be but the angel said to her do not be afraid mary you have found favor with god you will conceive and give birth to a son and you are to call him jesus he will be great and will be called the son of the most high the lord god will give him the throne of his father david and he will reign over jacob's descendants forever his kingdom will never end now although this never happened during the time of jesus this is a discussion that can be saved uh for another topic another talk later on okay now i i let me let me pause there and i think a lot of christians wouldn't understand what was just said there are a lot of who believe that the new testament is an error in the prophetic passages that it quotes in regards to jesus because again the quran does not understand the nature of jesus's kingship they don't understand jesus is ruling and reigning over his kingdom right now um his kingdom extends all around this world it is found and seen in the reality that men from every tribe tongue people and nation bow the knee in obedience and faith to him it is a spiritual kingdom as jesus explained pilot if my king was in this world my servants would be fighting to keep me from being delivered into your hands but my kingdom is not this world and so muslims not deriving their interpretation of the testament from the new testament but instead interpreting passages separate from one another in light of the quran look at a text like this and well this this didn't happen well actually he was called the son of god over against your own teachings um he was called the son of god and he was identified as the son of god and this is found throughout the synoptic gospels and john and his kingdom was established and has not ceased to grow since that point in time so the muslim reads those those verses and doesn't read them in a new testament context and comes up with this idea well it just says hasn't happened well it has and every christian if they want you know it depends on whether the christian wants to be effective a useful sharp instrument in the lord's hands to be used to reach these precious people or whether you just want to keep them you know as far away as possible then that'll depend on whether you want to understand these things and hence be able to give response to this kind of thing but this impacts the interpretation because if you think that the beginning of the of the passage contains errors things that never happen false prophecies and things like that you're never really going to be looking to be overly fair and and seeing the entirety of the text and that's unfortunately what what happens but it's interesting to note that this prophecy as described uh didn't fulfill its full um description let's carry on mary answered how would this be mary asked the angel since i am a virgin how can i have a son since i am a virgin meaning no man has ever touched me the angel answered now listen very closely because this is what i meant by this is a very touchy topic now keep something in mind many muslims have been impacted by the teaching and ideas of akhmed didat akhmed didat clearly understood the quran to teach that the relationship between father and son described the quran was a sexual one remember how many times well maybe you don't but we have a lot of people watching and listening that didn't in years past but uh in years past um we have it's very difficult to do because often the recordings aren't very good and a lot of people struggle to understand akhmed didat's language and his pronunciation things like that but we've spent hours playing akhmed didat videos audios and responding to his presentations here on the dividing line and strange saying back when we were doing that years ago no one seemed to have any problem with it at all i was very odd that we were spending all that time anyway um and i think didat was just reflecting on what is pretty clearly the author of the quran's understanding there are a number of texts in the quran that seem to indicate that sonship the idea of being a son of god is a marital sexual relationship which is not of course what christians believed or they're certainly not what they believed in 620 ad or 632 ad um that's not what they believed then it's not what they had believed for centuries before that and again i i just don't find any evidence in my reading of the quran or in any of the tafsir literature that i've looked at and i am a student of islam but i've read a lot of tafsir literature i've read i've read a lot more tafsir literature than most most muslims i know to be perfectly honest with you and i see no evidence in any of that of an understanding and the part the author of the quran of the very nature of sonship in christian theology instead there are a number of texts where you have very plainly you know if allah had wanted to take a son he could have he would have had to have taken a a a companion from what he had created a wife he can't have a son because he doesn't have a wife well okay that makes sense as an apologetic in regards to the idols in the khaba where we are told that many of the idols in the khaba at the beginning of muhammad's ministry uh it was you know a male god with a female consort and they have offspring it's pretty common in pagan religion makes sense if it's focused at that makes zero sense if it's focused upon christianity and so this really is a key key issue in understanding the argumentation that's being made uh and the understanding that the muslims have of the text they're reading the angel answered the holy spirit will come on you now again this is this is akhmed d dot in the background i think i don't know the gentleman but i've talked to enough people that i've heard this argument many many times before as we'll see and i'll bring up the i'll bring up the text we'll take a look at it when he's done but serious exegesis what i would suggest to my to this muslim friend and to my other muslim friends who watch this program if you are going to seriously engage the text here there are plenty of programs available i wish you all had as good quran programs as we have bible programs there's that one there's there's one my quran program on ipad man i wish i had it for mac um i wish they'd port that over so so i could have it for for mac it it's still not as good as as a bible works in accordance a logos whatever else might be we've got the good bible programs get yourself a good bible program and look these terms up look up what episcopal means which is what we're going to be seeing is the primary term being focused upon here um look at its old testament backgrounds look at what it meant it's literally to cast a shadow over episcopal it's rather transparent actually to cast a shadow over to overshadow something it's used the glory of god in the tabernacle so see that that there's a tremendous amount to be learned by looking at how the new testament writers use language it's found in the old testament and especially in the greek translation the old testament called the septuagint it look these things up rather than assuming what you're hearing here is this sounds like some type of physical sexual thing no it's not and nobody reading it originally would ever have come to that conclusion and here's one of the problems if if you've not again if you embrace the apologetics of ignorance which we're going to see is steve camp's position um if you embrace the apologetics of ignorance the first time you hear this yours could be going what what what are you talking about no what oh come on no and and there's never going to be any meaningful communication but if you've actually taken the time to actually you know be prepared uh because you want to be used as an as an instrument of god's peace in these people's lives even right now watching this once you've heard this let's say you're talking to the cab driver you're talking to the student of the university you're talking to whoever and they say well i'll be perfectly honest with you i never really understood what the trinity was about and and you know for example the thing about the birth of jesus because this is going to come up a lot because the quran addresses it the author of the quran was confused about it so that's going to come up over and over again and if you've heard it then your response doesn't have to be shock i've never heard anything like that before in my life i can't believe anybody would think something like that because it's never crossed your mind mind that there was something sexual about it unless you read brigham young uh then then then you'd that's a whole other mess uh from a different perspective um but you and i have never given that a second thought it's it's in and so once you've heard it and realize okay because of the quran because of the nature of the author of the quran's misunderstanding of sonship here's a situation where i'm going to be able to go into the text i'm going to be able to provide the context maybe if you're really wanting to be prepared mention some of the texts we'll look at later on the old testament as to what episcopal means and then i'm going to be able to transition directly into the fact that the angel and angels don't lie do they in talking about the birth of someone you believe to be a great prophet said he'd be called the son of the most high so now i can talk about what the truth about jesus as the son of god actually means and so i can take a misunderstanding and use it as an open door to the proclamation of the truth if i'm prepared if i'm not prepared because i've been listening to steve camp then i won't be able to do that and some of you going what are you talking about we'll get to it we steve camp was on janet mefford show two days ago and they presented the apologetic of ignorance uh you don't need to study that stuff all you gotta do is preach the gospel sounds great it's utterly foolish but sounds great and and we're we're demonstrating that that's not why i chose to do this it just happens to that if you're actually going to do apologetics you actually get out there in the world and do something um the argumentation that was presented will just fall apart uh and it did fall if the inconsistencies would be interesting to show once we get into that interview but anyways so here's your example living example right here right now the holy spirit will come on you and the power of the most high will overshadow you the power of the most high will overshadow you so therefore because of this touching or because of this coming on you and overshadowing you overshadowing you because of that so the holy one to be born will be called the son of god now let me just just for this this gentleman's edification especially please note that in these earliest sources there is no way to separate out the biblical concept of sonship this is the idea that somehow the new testament documents have been changed or altered this is added in a later point indefensible the earliest manuscripts we have all the manuscripts up to the time of the quran remember the quran says the people of gospel judge by what's contained therein you've got a real problem here in having to recognize that the angel was using language that you find to be untrue you have to reject it why do you have to reject it because the author of your book had a different understanding than the author of matthew but why did he have a different understanding did he even understand what the nature of sonship was because you don't understand the nature of sonship was he's called the son of god because of a supernatural birth there's nothing sexual about it i mean was there something sexual when allah made adam and eve i mean wasn't that personal no of course not so if god can make the human being then god can create a perfect human being in the womb of a woman can't he is allah not able to do that now i realize this takes us back fundamentally to the real issue between us and that is on a presuppositional level you do not believe that allah would be this intimately involved with his own creation let alone the idea that the second person of the trinity would take on a perfect human nature that's that's really the presuppositional rejection that again begs the question did the author of the quran even understand that that's what christians were teaching and i have never seen any evidence that the author of the quran did understand that at all that's why i keep pointing out to my my muslim friends today you know much more about the trinity than the author of the quran did much more how can that be if this is a divine book how can you have significantly better arguments than the quran does on this subject it's because you've done far more reading you're just far more aware than the author of the quran what does that tell you because of the holy spirit coming up on you and because of the power of the lord are overshadowing you thus the son you to have will be called the son of god now it is indicative of these words whether you accept my understanding of it or not but what i understand from this is that something physical occurred to marry and because of that because of that action the child that she gave birth to that was conceived at this moment is to be called the son of god because of the power of the lord overshadowing her and because of the holy spirit coming on her this is what is indicative from reading it whether it means that or not is not the issue here no no no it it is the issue here that that is the issue here um and again such in this situation uh i remember i forget who he was debating but i i remember years and years ago shabir ali raised a similar issue in in one of debates one of the people and i forgot who who now it was that he was he was interacting with but the argument was well it can be read that way well the quran can be read many different ways can't it and yet you would insist that there are certain proper ways of reading the quran you would demand that there's that context be taken into consideration all the rest of this kind of stuff and in so doing you have to be you have to be consistent now once once we're done here i'm i'm going to go to luke chapter one and we're going to look at what the text is actually saying to answer the question but the question has to be what did the text communicate to the original audience what did the original author intend to communicate what did his original audience what would they have understood so the original language is not arabic but koine greek this is luke i've never well i suppose there are some there's somebody out there that probably suggests luke was written in something other than greek but not very many um it's written in greek and so you need to look at what the terms meant in their own context and the idea this is some type of indication of physical sexual reproduction would never have suggested itself to the original audience any more than there was something physical or sexual about the glory of god overshadowing the tabernacle or something um just doesn't it doesn't make any sense there it is a supernatural action that's going to result in the beginning of a human life but it is only looking at that from the underside of of physicality that gives you any idea of the conclusions you're coming to if you allow the text to define itself god is bringing his son into the world through this virgin woman in holiness and purity and without the utilization of physical means of normal regeneration i .e

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joseph that's that's what the text is about uh as we'll see when we when we dig into it a little bit more carefully but i want us to hear the trinitarian aspect here so let's listen up but this is what's to be understood from it on face value but this is not my question i just want us to keep in mind and and and understand that these are some of the reasons why we misunderstand the bible in the christian doctrine because of verses like this so christians please explain this to us in light of this verbiage in light of this expression now the question i have in relation to the trinity doctrine is that when mary was in the state of conception when the angel came and told her that she would be given a child when she was in the state of conception of jesus was all of the members of the trinity of the godhead responsible for this was all of the members of the trinity of the godhead responsible for this conception of jesus in the womb of mary including jesus himself the bible tells us that the holy spirit will come upon her and the power of the most high the power of the lord will overshadow her so we have here two entities at least the holy spirit and the power of the lord taking part in something that will relate just just very very quickly uh no you do not have two separate entities um you're misunderstanding a standard uh hebraic uh means of expression um it's called hebrew parallelism it's found all through the psalter and it's just it's a renaming uh it's um so you don't have two different persons here this is something that the holy spirit of god accomplishes not the son uh it's not the father that does this it's the spirit of god that does this the spirit third person in the trinity so it's not the son the son is the one who becomes incarnate it's not the father he doesn't become incarnate at all um so there's there's that's pretty much the answer to your question but we'll let you finish it all up result in mary being pregnant and therefore because of that action the baby that she has should be called the son of god directly relating this to the action of the holy spirit and the power of the lord but according to christian doctrine of the trinity because they are all one being if one being does some if one of the persons of the trinity does something then all of them are equally responsible because they're one being why do you say that i i just i get i have challenges what when you say equally responsible responsible before whom i mean there's there's one will of god that's being accomplished but but the father does takes one role and the son another and the spirit another so uh it you're trying to conflate the persons rather than recognizing that in divine revelation the roles that they take are distinguished from one another and just because the infinite timeless being of yahweh is fully shared by father son spirit doesn't mean that every action of the father is the same action of the son the same action of the spirit that that doesn't make any sense there's what ground do you have for for making that kind of assertion all you're assuming is well you can't make a distinction you you're assuming there really isn't any difference between being in person well there is um this is an example of it the baptism narrative was an example of it um and so it's a it's not an overly good argument simply say well i'm just going to deny that you can differentiate between being in person well the text right here is is is differentiating between those two things very clearly so if the father done something then also the holy spirit and the son is inclusive in their action why because they're one being the one being god did something and that included the father the son and the holy ghost so to conclude if this is the case and if this is true does this mean that jesus who is part of the godhead who is part of the trinity does this mean that jesus was equally responsible for impregnating impregnating his mother with his own self if jesus is part of the godhead and the godhead is one being that consists of three persons father son and holy ghost and we read clearly in the verse in luke that the holy spirit came on mary and the power of the lord overshadowed her it didn't mention jesus but are we to assume and assert that because jesus is part of the godhead part of the trinity that he was equally responsible for this action that gave conception to himself did jesus partake and impregnating his own mother to give birth to his own self these are the questions that we have and we would like for the christians to come and try to answer for us for the sake of clarity okay and so we'll that's what we're doing and i appreciate appreciate the question um we've probably already given the answer but uh each of the divine persons takes a different role you're assuming um that since father son spirit and eternity past chose to bring about their own glorification through creation and the redemption of a particular people which includes the incarnation of the sun his dying for that people their union with him their glorification etc etc that there are not real differences because there's only one divine will overarching divine will that somehow because there's one overarching divine will that there cannot be specific uh issues uh specific realms of activity so the father does certain things the son does certain things the spirit does certain things it was the spirit who was the supernatural agency by which the beginning of the human life of the messiah was brought about and it was the son who joined to himself that perfect human nature and was born of the virgin mary and it was the father that decreed that this is how it would all be done they take different roles um it would be similar to saying that since there is one will of allah that that means that everything that happens the actions of the jinn the shaitan everything it's all just the will of allah and he's equally responsible for everything well you hopefully you recognize that that would not make any sense that that leads to a something called monism all is one one is all uh etc etc it doesn't make any sense uh classical theists whether christian muslim or jewish um are not monists and so we recognize that god can act in time and create other actors who likewise act in time and they just don't simply cease to exist just because they're part of god's will so there's a fundamental assumption error in your in your argumentation that ignores the fact that the text specifically identifies it's the spirit that brings about the beginning of this life and then if you take the bible as a whole john 1 14 tells us that the word was made flesh yes yeah uh great i'm sure that was probably very interesting so uh for the sake of clarity um and by the way just for clarification i've just noticed this in looking at the title of the video it says for the sake of clarity part two immaculate conception of jesus immaculate conception i'm not sure what you mean by that are you confusing that with the immaculate conception of mary in roman catholic theology it comes much much later uh i'm not i'm sure but uh you got to keep keep those things uh separate so there you go there's uh there's that and i hope that that is of use to everyone um let me change over here all right you should have a different feed uh now so there is an example of uh how you can take an objection that most christians have never even heard of let's just just be honest how well okay our audience is a little bit different uh but the vast majority of christians have never heard that kind of an objection to the doctrine of the trinity and as such would struggle in providing a coherent response unless you do preparation and we try to encourage folks to do that at the very least if you've heard this discussion before and you heard the objection in the future you'd at least maybe not have as emotional a response uh as sometimes people have and when you have an emotional response to a question that frequently sidetracks and destroys the uh the the conversation and that we want to try to help those things not to happen now before i go to the next portion i did want to make a quick comment um news came out this morning about the fact that you know for a long time we've been saying you know if you like uh if you like what you see here on on the program be wise and download the episodes save the audio save the video whatever you need to do because eventually we won't be here and it won't be because we choose to close up shop it'll be because we're scrambling around trying to find some alternate way of communicating with some kind of an audience this is already happening to certain people some of the big programs out there have already found themselves effectively banned by google and facebook and they will be working down to a small fry over time um word came out today about um they're establishing a category for videos where they decide that your material contains religiously extreme views and that you'll still be able to upload but basically no one will be able to find it unless they have the exact url there won't be other links to it you it'll just live in limbo it won't come up on searches uh it'll it'll be there but uh only the people that you can somehow communicate with directly will be able to find it no one's real search for it things like that and the amazing thing is uh just today uh i'm sorry yesterday google and youtube banned professor who refused to use gender neutral pronouns this guy's a liberal but he's up in canada and he's the guy that's seen before he just makes basic logical argument that this is the end of meaningful communication and meaningful societal existence oh well there you go um and they shut him down um his gmail account gone his youtube account gone now he had enough contacts to raise a stink and he got his stuff back but most of us don't have enough contacts to be able to do that and so once again just a brief note here the secular totalitarians are on the move and it's happening fast and when you can no longer find us uh hopefully you can still find aomin .org

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and obviously we'll be doing what we can uh to try to find it's pretty hard to get around facebook and google um these folks own the internet and once they decide and of course only they get to decide there's the the totalitarians are totalitarians for a reason and they don't debate they don't argue they don't reason they shut down any view that they find offensive and the people who think this is a good thing need to realize that they don't have any protection against these people too you may you may go i think it'd be great if you'd shut down those conservative christians and people like that'd be great um what happens when you have a viewpoint that doesn't exactly fit with them there's not gonna be anybody left to complain when you get shut down that's the nature of totalitarianism um freedom of speech freedom of expression liberty dying quickly you know it's funny i was listening to robert spencer on the janet mefford show i listened to the last two episodes he was on he's on very regularly and there was there was almost nothing he said that i disagreed with almost nothing he said that disagreed with um jihad watch is being filtered being it's banned in many places in europe this one won't even let it let it there what let you know any of the information there um these big internet companies are leftist totalitarians and they're they're doing their leftist totalitarian thing well what was interesting while we would agree uh with so much of what he said what was fascinating to me is in listening to two full interviews between janet mefford and robert spencer there is a lot about islamic extremism jihad um the uh censoring of people who would sound the the warning things like that uh words that were never heard gospel salvation pray for muslims reach out to muslims communicate in love it's not what robert spencer's about he's into politics he's into world politics he's he he warns about extremist islam unfortunately frequently extends that out and certainly in his audience mind the audience comes to conclusion and that's the only real islam um but there is nothing about any of those things on a christian program nothing about reaching them with the gospel nothing like that and what i'm discovering especially in listening to janet's interview with steve camp and uh things like that a lot of these folks they want to talk you know they know the orthodox terminology to use we need to love the muslims we need to reach out to them with the gospel but when it comes to actually doing it they're far more concerned about our freedoms and our culture and our constitution and u .s

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and west the western culture and all the rest of that stuff than they are the gospel i just it just becomes very very clear very very clear indeed um so anyway uh just be aware if one day we just all disappear uh a few months ago i was told my name's on the shadow band list in in twitter um so you know i could try to log in one day and gone not there anymore i'm seriously thinking about uh you know taking some steps to try to have other ways of doing things but there's only only so many things you can do yeah and so if that happens go to amin .org

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we'll we would hopefully at least still have our own domain uh and server yeah who knows because i i know we've used utilized some of those big guys in the past i'm not sure if we are now but if they decide to take you down you disappear you're gone um it's it's gonna happen it's it's just just don't know when just don't know when because these just to stand to stay to stand and say that for example there are only two genders that this is how god made us this is good this is right to say anything other is to defame god and to denigrate humanity well that's fully defensible in debate it's logical it's rational it is it is completely commensurate with our experience in this world but it's now considered societal heresy and the totalitarians don't care if they can debate you on it they won't debate you on it as long as they can get away with silencing you they don't care about liberty they don't care about freedom expression they will use the great technology we have to silence anyone who says anything other than what they want you to think and to say and every day brings more and more evidence that they are moving and they are doing it and i don't know what there is to stop them outside of maranatha come lord jesus um there you go um so with that um last evening i blame some guy i was gonna what you gotta get those little red lights man i don't know what you're what you're aiming at yeah yeah yeah yeah some no just a light on the camera um with all your gadget stuff you can't come up with a way to have a light little light on a camera no not a laser pointer you this is this should be easy this did go on amazon .com

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just put type it in it'll come up i can assure you a little little red remote light cutting my head off though i have to feel like i'm ducking down like this so i can fit in so because i sit up straight and i see isn't see i cut the head off anyway anyway um my dot my laugh sounds like david letterman i sound like david letterman no okay all right so um blind him with a laser pointer that's that's i can tell you stories about laser pointers with kids but i won't i won't go there right now i could probably get in trouble anyway i was what was i doing last night oh i was downloading uh a series of really interesting lectures from a muslim scholar on the text and the text transmission of the quran uh i don't know how many hours i only got through the like the first four topics and there's over five hours worth of audio i started on it morning on that ride that i was tweeting about this morning got some great i don't know if you saw my pictures but i i got some beautiful beautiful sunrise pictures morning you have to get up really early in the morning to do that um it's been a good monsoon yeah monsoon brings beautiful sunrises and sunsets and stuff like that but i only get to see the beautiful sunrises when i'm out in the desert someplace anyway uh i was downloading this stuff and then somebody on twitter and it's all his fault i could find the guy's name uh somebody on twitter said that brandon house was just about to be on um the uh that report what's the guy's name um it was called islam is destroying america uh but um um it's this the thing's too small anyway it was beyond that privatized program bergman berman hagman hagman report that's right and uh so i was like really you got a link or something and so i looked it up and managed just get get on the youtube feed pretty much right to start and it took a little while for them to get uh house on and it took less than 60 seconds for house started talking about me and of course just well the the only the only way to describe when someone continues to repeat statements that have been factually refuted repeatedly i think that's called lying no matter how zealous you may be no matter how absolutely convinced i i think it's called lying and it it didn't it didn't take long before uh house was was into it um and i wanted to play some segments of this educationally people don't seem to understand that we have a serious uh credibility gap when on the one hand we will rightly speak of well for example the media in palestine that teaches young children to want to stab jews with knives that's horrific it's wrong it's inhuman it's evil it must be condemned it has to be stopped not by government action but by changing hearts and minds we can point to that and we can point to the fact that amongst muslims you have in muslim countries you have a tremendous look at what happens in pakistan look at the fear that christians live in in pakistan in many places not in every place but in most places in pakistan of being of the blasphemy laws all a muslim has to do is threaten to accuse you of having burned a page of the quran or something and you just have to do whatever the muslim says we look at these things and we can point to examples of mistreatment of christians imprisonment of christians murdering of christians we look at that and we say this is terrible and we see that there is an entire culture amongst many of these people of of christophobia i don't like that term but it's it unfortunately has now entered into our vocabulary if you don't like something if you if you're prejudiced towards something you're phobic that's actually not what the word means phobic comes from fabas which means fear and so it bugs me to no end that we're stuck with that these days but anyway um we we point that out and i i see muslims who are incredibly prejudiced in regards to christianity and anything that christian says we point that out we say it shouldn't be that way great but if you could point that direction then you have to look this direction too and the fact is we have in what calls itself evangelicalism people who call themselves conservative christians who are bigoted prejudiced individuals they're not fair in their criticism they're not truthful they're not honest they claim that they have every good reason to be doing what they're doing but they're unfair in how they refer to other people so how can we say those people need to stop doing what they're doing but then we we ignore these people here because they're they're on our side see they're on our side this goes back to what happened um in regards to a certain person from liberty university by the name of eric canter why did we pursue the eric canter uh situation because we have to be consistent if you have people on the islamic side pretending to be things they were not to get people to convert to islam if you get people on the christian side pretending to be things they were not if we are people of truth then we have to engage in criticism evenly and on the basis of honesty and truth and consistency if we want to be people of truth if you want to take if someone wants to uh be a follower of jesus christ and say he is the way the truth in life then we need to be truthful that's all there is to it so there are people who call themselves christians who are grossly prejudiced toward muslims brandon house is one of them and as we're going to see one of the things he says is if you defend a muslim you're defending islam one of the things we're going to see is there's a tremendous incapacity to think in proper categories amongst the conspiratorially minded and believe me this program he was on it's three hours long so after house was on i kept going back to see if i could download the video they were still going on so i watched some of it they had some guy on about asteroids deflecting asteroids and ufos and the u .s

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government and we're talking uh well area the art bell we're talking these guys are the art bells of of christian radio i mean every conspiracy theory you can imagine jesuits and illuminati and and everything fits with these folks and the conspiratorially minded um really struggle with maintaining proper category distinctions and so there is to the to the logically thinking person pointing out that someone is abusing and misrepresenting and lying about an individual muslim is not the same thing as defending islam but in brandon house's mind it is and brand house's mind it is that's how he can weave this these incredibly intricate fabrics of conspiracies and i mean you're gonna you're gonna see this but do you know something guess guess what um rick warren went to fuller seminary i went to fuller seminary proves everything doesn't it now some of you are sitting there going i haven't i i didn't drink the the the the kool -aid but what does that have to do with anything nothing but in brandon house's mind it does because you see there are a lot of liberals fuller seminary now there were back late 1980s but they weren't nearly as bad as they are today and if brand house cared about truth at all which he does not plainly it's sad but he just doesn't care at all then he would know that many many many times i've talked about my experience at fuller seminary and i described myself as fuller's token fundamentalist and that i did it the arizona campus an extension campus here in phoenix and that i was probably the most conservative person in that group and that there are many times i wondered why on earth um am i sitting here why am i going through this well it was the only place i could go we were poor as church mice and couldn't move committed the ministry so there was there was there was one graduate school of theology in all of arizona at that time it was fuller theological seminary that's why i went there thankfully they drew most of their professors from grand canaan college where i'd gone um but still i had a lot of professors way off to my left at the time i was wondering why i mean it was just i've told the story i've told the story about uh taking a penitent class a penitent penitent plural penteclass and we were given uh commentaries to read they're still in my library i don't get rid of anything i'm scottish um they're still in my library and do you know where my commentaries are there if you go if you go in um uh betsy's on the far side of the commentaries they are organized by by books the new test was on the top the old testament's over this side deuteronomy deuteronomy by gerhard von rocke can you find it it's it's a it's an ugly yellowish color let me tell you the story let me see if i can show it to you uh since it's since they're by since they're in canonical order hopefully once you find genesis uh deuteronomy won't be too far away um we were given i know this is taking forever i'm sorry uh i'm never gonna get through all this but um well we'll just go and continue on the next time that's that's the joyous thing about doing the dividing line the way we do it we don't have to worry about network breaks or anything else and you can fast forward past this stuff you've already heard the story but we were assigned five commentaries and we were to read them and we were to uh write a pro and con review we were to give our the positive points we were to give the negative points of each one of these commentaries well i remember the one oh was it deuteronomy or genesis uh walter bruggemann was one of them that's a red and orange ugly thing and um here was gerhard von ratz commentary on deuteronomy and see it's got my little library of thank you very much they're rich and um it's not overly long it's only a little over 200 pages long uh it's marked uh i was a good student i did what i was supposed to do my professor stood in front of the uh in front of the uh class and he said i believe this is the best commentary deuteronomy in print in english today well i remember reading it and uh i read it fairly understood you know you can't go to fuller without coming to understand the uh uh graf wellhausen hypothesis and you get really accustomed to interpretations of the old testament or basically you just assume that it's a pile of self -contradictory badly edited and redacted stuff and uh but i had to write had to write my review so i uh i looked at it and i i said uh okay let's um okay yeah well for example look here's one of my man old old oh you know how old this card is rich two six six two lds two six six two rcc two six six two jws yeah yeah oh and does display pager it's back when i had remember that my first display pager remember when we got that oh yeah oh yeah yeah we're at 47 47 north 16th street doesn't matter we give that address out now because it don't exist no more no it's not a train station it's a storage facility yeah yeah right right anyway there's there's the card uh check this out uh page page 27 the book is a product of the theology of the time is what i had marked and then a blue n next to it negative um i had to start off with the positives now the professor has held this up and said this is the best commentary in english available today you know what i said in my review this book has a very nice binding it does this is this is look at look at how i mean that is still well bound this book had a very nice binding then i moved on to the negatives got a 98 out of 100 on the review you know why because the professor could tell i had thoroughly read the book and thought through my criticisms back then at least in the phoenix extension at least with this professor he was a good professor we were not on the same page definitely to my left but you know what he was brilliant i learned a lot from him and i feel sorry for all of you fundies out there that could not learn from a man like that because i could learn from without having to agree with him and for some reason for a lot of fundies he just don't get that i learned that there see he was polluted well there you go back then you could still get a 98 out of 100 and disagree with everything you found in the book that the professor identified as the best commentary when you have your hand up like that you normally want to say something well i was just going to point out you know while you were on the subject of that address at that time folks should know that when you say porous church mice yeah that is the first building that we were evicted from before they tore it down before the second building that we were evicted from before they tore it down before we moved into your garage garage yeah that that house is no actually well yeah we did but i wrote the king james only controversy in the second bedroom of that house yeah yeah we're in it for the money folks yeah okay anyway so um yeah i went fuller years later i found out why um you ever seen my my debate with john dominic crossan and marcus borg why do you think i can i understand what they're saying because i went to fuller um i was invited on a co -founder of the jesus seminar robert funk you know why that went so well well until he hung up on us because i went to fuller these people think conspiratorial minded instead of going oh well that's where he got a grasp of liberal theology that's why for example when he debated shabir ali for the first time shabir ali expert at using liberal theology didn't work with him been there done that got the t -shirt got the degree this kind of conspiratorial thinking ignores the facts ignores proper categories ignores the fact that i have criticized rick warren strongly for his statements about the papacy his ecumenism i've i've criticized him for compromise in regards to islam i have been criticized roundly for the videos i've put out saying the christians and muslims do not worship the same god but you see the difference is i don't just glibly say that like brandon house i don't just glibly say that like steve camp i say it fully knowing that the quran says otherwise i say it fully knowing the background in surah three the meeting between at least in the islamic sources between christians from nashran and muhammad that takes place toward the end of his life i say it with a background of all that so that when i criticize the conclusion i can do so from a position of meaningful scholarship these men have no earthly idea of any of that and they're proud of it that's the scary part they're proud that they don't know i don't know i'm ignorant i'm godly no you're not that doesn't make you godly knowing that doesn't make you godly either it's what your motivations are but there's nothing godly about the apologetics of ignorance really isn't i'm never gonna get any of this done if i don't start playing it am i i'm sorry all right let's um you got you got got it over there okay let's um let's dive in but listen to this because this whole thing we talked about with james white uh a minister who really quite frankly isn't that well known he's only you know really followed within calvinist circles reformed theology circles uh but i'll say that he's really not that well known but it's shocking it's not because it's not it's a big deal not because he's well known it's a big deal because of who he is well known with the people that follow him that's what makes this a big deal we know the mainline liberals we know the neo -evangelicals we know the social justice crowd are all about uh interfaith dialogue we now notice something brandon house recognizes that there is a difference between the liberal social justice warriors and their ecumenism and me um he may have ignored it he may have skipped over it but everybody who listened to that dialogue and who will listen to future dialogues will be struck by the fact that the fundamental foundation that was enunciated by myself and by dr yasser khadi was to repudiate the whole idea that there can be such a thing as chris long there can be such a thing as some middle ground there isn't any middle ground it's simp neither side believes that if what the other says is true that we can possibly be right we we recognize that we said it we stated it we rejected the interfaith dialogue methodology and yet house camp mefford what they keep doing they keep using interfaith dialogue in an ambiguous a purposefully inaccurate and ambiguous fashion they're they just do it over and over again what do you think about interface well it would have to depend on what the purposes were what the individuals saying what their beliefs are what the categories laid out are uh every debate i've ever done was an interfaith dialogue wasn't it it was every single debate and some of these folks steve cams been against debates for quite some time he's mocked the debates that we've done for quite some time so at least he's been consistent he doesn't he doesn't believe you should uh you should engage these folks in that kind of a context um but i was on janet mefford show doing debates with muslims for years filled in for as a guest host paid guest host i was doing debates with muslims who changed wasn't me wasn't me but see he knows he knows the difference and this on this this willingness to sit here and talk all about this book he was just talking about was was rome's uh a bridge i think it's called like a bridge to nowhere or something it was about rome's disastrous ecumenical interfaith dialogue stuff what does that have to do with what happened in memphis nothing absolutely positively not not to the person who's honestly representing it anyways so why the dishonesty of a man who called himself christian because of greater priorities it's a it's a pragmatism when you're a conspiratorialist you're very pragmatic in the categories you use and when you when you observe categories and when you don't you don't you don't have to be consistent consistency is the the death of conspiracy theories so you have to be willing to do other things didn't think the folks that follow the reform theology people who maybe be are calvinist because those are loaded terms that can mean a lot of things but they tend to be people who are rather theologically conservative they tend to be people who are not for ecumenicalism and pluralism and things like that so when this guy comes to our town and sits with a jihadi imam a jew hating holocaust denying hitler defending you know hawk uh terrorist mentor terrorist minting uh jihadi and i believe that's is based on all my research okay so there was there was a uh he's he's just about to hold up this big sheaf of of um documents he has what you just heard was a series of lies by brennan house they are slanders against yasser khadi that's all there is to it when yasser khadi was in his 20s he said things about the holocaust then he went to germany or was it poland i forget which one he went to but he visited at least one of the death camps and he apologized for what he said now from their perspective well he's a muslim so it's just a kia right so on the one hand you want to be able to call him a holocaust denying jew hating jihadi but then when he as an older man apologizes for things he said when he was in his 20s you don't accept that well because he's a muslim how can the man win we say on the one hand we'd love to see the radical muslims adopt a more peaceful perspective and then when we do we say they're liars brilliant just brilliant this is the behavior of people who clearly have no connection with these folks and never will because they're disrespectful they're slanderous and you are not defending islam to point out that yasser khadi has apologized for as a young man and if you think that you are then you are not thinking rationally i don't know how you function in life i really don't if you can confuse those two things put the try for a second to put the shoe on the other foot what if a christian said things in their youth that they then apologized for later on but people wouldn't accept it because well they're christian wouldn't you see the bigotry wouldn't you see the prejudice and yet for a lot of people today nope don't see it i think i'm no i'm i'm fine i'm good i'm a patriot that term patriot ends up showing up a lot here ends up showing up a lot here um okay uh i someday i'm gonna find a program that allows me to put bookmarks in here uh so i can do this faster but this is the best i can do right now uh go about somewhere around oh cambridge within one second that's not too bad all right next one here we are in the protestant world i am the evangelical world if you will and we have battled the liberals they started out you know with uh things a few years ago one example would be the yale document that said that muslims and christians all worship the same god now have i criticized the yale document have i done videos on it have i done entire videos on whether we worship the same god we do not but of course my answer that is significantly uh couched within a study of not only historic trinitarian theology church history but also islamic theology uh the quran uh the tafsir literature and so it's meant to actually be a full accurate meaningful discussion that's supposed to communicate to muslims to explain that i'm not just giving a reaction i just don't want to worship the same god you worship but here's the reason that we don't worship the same god and and then that i build the bridge not not an ecumenical bridge but the gospel bridge to being able to say here's my problem and i was doing this earlier in the program my problem is that it's absolutely definitional to the christian understanding who god is the self -revelation of jesus christ the incarnation of christ outpouring of holy spirit the doctrine of the trinity is absolutely central here's why and i don't see any evidence that the author of the quran understood these things and therefore i would call you to consider that and to factor that into your analysis of whether why you believe that the quran is divine revelation all those types of things um don't you think maybe it would be good to to note that i've done those things does brandon house know that i've done those things does he care that i've done any of that i don't know i don't get the feeling that he does especially with the actions he's undertaken uh recently muslims don't believe in the trinity muslims don't believe in the deity of price muslims don't believe in a personal god muslims don't believe time out um i am not defending islam to point out that brandon house just misrepresented islam they believe in a personal god where'd you get anything else what what do you what do you mean that that what what's your what's your argument that allah is impersonal uh you you can make an argument that being unipersonal is less than the trinitarian concept in eternity i guess but i just don't i'm sorry i don't get the feeling that's where brand house is going here he said god is impersonal that's not true and while the other statements were true does he know why or is he just simply going second hand information trusting whatever sources he's chosen to utilize that uh their god uh their fault fake god false god allah would ever take on human form so they don't even believe that they just say this so that the ignorant so now now stop now again they don't even believe that uh the claim of the quran is that allah is the god of abraham isaac and jacob the claim of the quran is that christians have engaged in excess and gone beyond the revelation so the claim is yes it is the same god but you've gone into excess and gone beyond what is warranted even in the teachings of risa bin mariam uh jesus the son of mary why not i mean that's basic islam 101 why misrepresent it well i was just talking quickly okay well there you go christians will will sign on to the yale document which is again put forth by them and then all these neo -evangelicals came forward and signed the yale document that says muslims and christians worship the same god all you got to do is put into a search engine the yale document a common word you'll find it you'll find all the signatories well and you'll discover that i'm not one of them and you'll also find from google which hasn't quite scrubbed all of my stuff yet that i criticized it then you have people like rick warren you have uh leith anderson of the national association of evangelicals bill heibel's out of chicago um you have lots of people some folks from fuller theological seminary which went liberal many years ago but we've never seen people from the reformed conservative reformed camp of baptist uh reformed churches defending interfaith dialogue as they have with uh james white and maybe brandon maybe just possibly the reason is they recognize the different nature of what yasser qadi and i did then these other interfaith dialogues which are based upon compromise liberalism and things like that maybe they listened and actually instead of just assuming we were liars from the start which you did they actually listened and oh here's a conservative muslim and here's a conservative christian and they're not trying to come up with a synthesis and they're going to have an honest discussion about what separates them and also the similarities they have and it's just amazing to me it's just so it's so sad when i i hear people on my side uh saying we have no similarities and i go well we're we're both monotheists they have a different god okay but we're both monotheists it doesn't matter yeah it does i mean to a rational thinking person it does if if you can't recognize that we're both monotheists and then use that that that statement of truth as a basis for well maybe even something just as simple as showing respect to somebody it's amazing the doors to the gospel that are open by simply being respectful by just i with muslims especially they respond to the respect you show them by accurately representing what they believe and not by trying to tell them what they believe and i don't think most of these folks would ever have experienced that given the way they behave but that's my experience there's a little respect and and accuracy and truthfulness um we both believe there's one god on that basis now let's discuss what that one god has revealed about himself we could ask questions about uh the coherence of unipersonality in regards to the assertion of for example allah being loving unipersonally over time um also there's all sorts of but we can't get into the real questions when you just provide a knee -jerk prejudice redneck response that says we got nothing in we both live in the same world god makes his rain to fall on both of us the sky is blue to both of us what is your problem don't you realize this kind of of attitude makes it impossible for you to actually talk about the important stuff it's just it's mind -numbing it just absolutely mind -numbing and it's created a huge deal within evangelicalism and frankly it's easy to say huge huge i wonder where that comes from he said huge it's gonna be huge losing a lot of people and again i think the most shocking is to think that someone like john mcarthur who has opposed evangelicals and catholics together that his executive and and and so did i very firmly very strongly long long ago not that anybody cared but i i did i did too director of grace to you phil johnson has been so voracious in his defense of something that even his own boss has preached again but yet we can't it is it is so transparent that brandon house has it in for phil johnson that he will make stuff up look um i have known for 20 years since i started doing debates before i did debates with muslims grace community would not be hosting any of them they don't they don't believe in doing debates okay um we can have that conversation i don't think there's something special about a church building i certainly wouldn't have one in a worship service i fully recognize the the sanctity of the gathered body but i don't recognize the sanctity of buildings i think i think the church is made up of people not of mortar and brick but if the leadership of a particular church says we're not gonna we're not gonna have debates we're not gonna have anything other than just this fine i've known that all along but i have gone through i took the time someone posted john mccarthur's commentary on the corinthians passage in regards to being unequally yoked i took the time to take what they posted and i walked all the way through it exegetically and demonstrated it had nothing to do with we did in memphis this man cannot respond to that i'm sorry the people are you shouldn't say that no i'm stating a fact when when someone provides refutation of you and you just keep repeating the same simplistic stuff that's a demonstration you do not possess the capacity and capability of actually refuting the arguments that have been presented to you and that's why he will never expose himself to a one -on -one with me uh never happen because his narrative just simply cannot survive cross -examination he knows it he knows it um it's it's a sad thing to see all right you know what i'm not i'm not going to get to uh the janet mefford show today yeah there is always tomorrow um but there are still a few things here so at least get to this and then we can clear the deck and and get to it because i said i was going to so now i don't have any choice uh and i do want to get to the apologetics of ignorance because that's that's that's exactly what what um steve came drop this down just a second uh that's exactly uh what what steve gave um in his in his statements and i was gonna i'll just i'll just stay with this um the idea being we don't need to know all this stuff and you know what obviously you as an individual in your regular life you know somebody somebody even pointed out that this morning when i tweeted my sunrise pictures from out on new river road out in the middle of nowhere uh someone mentioned that because i mentioned i was listening to lectures new lectures i just encountered on the text and transmission of the qurans and somebody's gonna say you're a bad man and they're exactly right you don't have to be doing that how many times have i said i read the bad books you don't have to you know i'm an apologist i take that information i synthesize it i put it together i use it in debates and hopefully that makes it more accessible to people to use in their everyday lives people are not called to spend the amount of time that i do listening to other religions listening to heretics listening to all sorts of stuff i've read more books uh from the pro -homosexual pro -gay marriage perspective than anyone should ever read in their entire lives but i have to that's why i can debate graham codrington in south africa effectively because i don't believe in the apologetics of ignorance and so i do want to get to because you know steve may it sounds so very attractive um that all you need to do is know the gospel what he missed is there are many situations christians live in were to be able to communicate that gospel to someone else that has barriers in front of them we need to know more than just that and that's the problem that's why i want to get to it um so we'll we'll finish up uh with the brand house stuff and then we'll uh we'll do uh because some other things came out while this was happening all right let's skip ahead here uh i didn't let's see here oops it's sort of funny watching him moving around here all right this is close enough his uh prosecution and and all this publicity okay so he he's he's asked if you ever heard the term islamophobia getting from you know blackmailing congress is just because of islamophobia yeah and you know how many um of the uh muslims call me an islamophobic you know how many of the neo -marxists call me an islamophobic it's not an islamophobic i'm sorry but you're you're either an islamophobe or you suffer from islamophobia but you're not an islamophobic um that's what now so -called conservative so -called conservative bible believing conservative pastors and elders are now writing and tweeting and facebooking that i'm an islamophobic you saw my deck doc shuram hadian shuram being a former muslim usama being from egypt an expert on islam that when we broke this story i broke the story brought into our tv studio we produced these four shows explaining who james white's sitting with one of the biggest jihadi promoting imams in america yeah it's uh that's that's the guy that's uh isis has has uh targeted for um for execution i have to tell you it's amazing you got out with your life yeah i know yeah yeah yeah um again i i would i would attempt to discuss jihad uh but i don't think bran house cares and i would just simply go go look up the presentation that yasser khadi made in norway about isis and listen to it and then compare this and you'll understand why someone would say you're an islamophobic actually no one says that but anyway um i don't know the there is never an excuse for just simply lying about somebody else there just there's no excuse i don't care what religion you are um and there's less excuse when you're a christian it just it's just anyway trying to find common ground saying you know where can we agree how can we find where we agree where can we disagree where do we agree you can't find common ground with jihadist to say he senses a kindred spirit you can't find common ground with jihadists um so here we talk in a mosque and in a church not during services of course about our respective faiths and we explain we believe and i'm given full freedom to explain the trinity and the deity of christ and the necessity of the atonement and these are all areas where we disagree and i was given perfect freedom you would think that someone who has some modicum of fairness in their thinking might mention that i've never heard him mention it never heard him mention it um not once this jihadi imam saying he mentored him in in parts of islam saying he wants uh yasser qadhi this jihad now here comes one of the big lies uh now the the mentoring thing we've already explained a thousand times before very proud the fact that i actually learn from muslim scholars not just from yasser qadhi but from uh others as well i've listened to many lectures i i remember uh hamsa yusuf did a uh a series was it on the life of muhammad or was it a basic introduction to islam i'm forgetting because i've i list i think it's based on islam because i think the life of muhammad thing i listened to primarily while riding in south mountains just trying to remember the context but uh hamsa yusuf has been a mentor to me now hamsa yusuf and yasser qadhi are two different people and they have different perspectives and they have different beliefs and uh i am am very thankful to have had the opportunity of learning from many people i learned i learned from the professor that i didn't disagree with who thought that i didn't agree with who thought this was the best commentary in deuteronomy i actually learned a lot from him really did and i feel sorry for anybody who can't learn that way because that's why you remain so stinking ignorant of so many things because you're so proud and arrogant and thinking you don't have to learn from others who happen to disagree with you i'm sorry for you i i feel pity for you really do but here comes a big lie here's the big lie um i mentioned the fact that and i've said this more than once i said this after the recording as well i talked with uh the leadership in the mosque in the memphis islamic center i said look i've said this many times i've said this here on the program i've said those of you who oppose isis and al -qaeda um i think didn't i years ago i think about two or three years ago i played some clips of an older muslim imam lecturing about what's wrong with isis and i said this is great but it's a snooze fest and this is not going to reach the people that isis is reaching and so i have said to many muslims not just the yasser khadi you all need need to produce a clear compelling well done presentation on why you reject violent implementation of jihad by isis and al -qaeda and what the fiqh basis the legal basis in sharia is against these things it needs to be something that can be referred to it needs to be something that people can understand it can't just it can't be filled with arabic terminology and and technical legal language it needs to be explained to people that's what i said it would be very useful that's what i said so what does brand house lie about he says as you're about to hear me that i said you need to produce a a video explaining islam to my people i never said anything like it i've done multi -night presentations have you ever seen the islam a to z presentation i did in new orleans that's what i would present to people because it's accurate i've had muslims say oh no okay i might disagree a little bit there but in general yeah it's pretty nice to hear someone obviously trying to be accurate and what you're saying yeah um that's why we had at least three muslims show up in my presentation in denver a couple weeks ago uh and they showed up basically to say we appreciate you not lying about us thank you now we're gonna show up at uh brandon house's stuff imam we have preaching about how you can take the property of the christians and the jews during jihad in their life he sits with him and says would you make a video so my community can better understand islam his community being i guess reformed calvinist bible baptist churches i mean ridiculous really would you ask a satanist to make a video to teach the church about satanism well there you go there's there's brandon house lying through his teeth does he do that purposely i think so but he honestly very very clearly he honestly he is so dedicated to this zeal that he has that he's just become a pragmatist you know the facts are just you know facts turn it into whatever you want form it into whatever you want did i have a specific thing in mind i did does that fit as saying no so just just you know take off a little from the side a little from here a little from there pretty cool right yeah but who helped sponsor this book on interfaith dialogue well fuller seminary which begins where james white reportedly graduated from according to his own website and rick warren among others but also the international institute of islamic thought ah rick warren and cc you just throw it all through all these things in here don't worry about the fact there's absolutely no rational connection between them just throw them all in there because that's what gets people to buy your freeze -dried food yeah okay which by the way they are the ones according to discover the networks .org