40 Minutes on God's Decree and Man's Free Will

The Program Introduction and the Day's Topics

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the United States.

It's 1 -866 -854 -6763. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

And good afternoon and welcome to The Dividing Line. This week catching up on various sundry topics that we have not had the opportunity of getting to the past few weeks, especially as we have been addressing the new Dave Hunt book.

And I would like to say that the response we got to last week's program was just incredible. Not only the calls we got during the course of the program, which were very encouraging, but the tremendous number of emails that we received.

To all of you who feel that I'm depressed and I'm down, I'm really not. That wasn't really what I was trying to communicate. It was great to get all the encouragement. But really I was just taken aback by the suggestions that were made in the email that I presented and really just the whole attitude of many people in regards to engaging in theological dialogue and how it should be done and what our ultimate priorities should be and all sorts of neat, wonderful, fun things like that.

And as I said, the response was just absolutely overwhelming. Very, very encouraging, very appreciative for all those folks who took the time to call or to write all the emails we got and so on and so forth.

So very, very, very pleased about that. When I say catching up on things, the Dave Hunt saga is not the only thing that has been going on, of course, over the past month or so. In fact, during that period of time there have been a number of things.

And we haven't really talked about them. For example, as many of you know, in April the Alliance Defense Fund filed suit against Barry Lynn in federal court looking for a declaratory judgment in regards to the distribution of the videotape of the debate that Mr. Lynn and I had in, well, it was a year ago yesterday.

I hadn't recognized the passing of the date, but a year ago yesterday, May 24, 2001, Mr. Lynn and I had a debate on the subject, Is Homosexuality Compatible with Authentic Christianity at a PCUSA church in Long Island?

And we began making that debate tape available, I believe, in December of 2001. And then back in February we received cease and desist letters from Mr. Lynn's attorneys. And that has led to this whole situation.

It is my understanding that there has been somewhat of an extension as far as how much time Mr. Lynn has to respond to the filing until this coming Friday, the 31st. Oh, now out to June 10th. Well, you know how legal things are.

They just keep going and going and going. So I honestly can't tell you what the situation is because there has not been a response given as of yet. So we're looking at a number of more weeks before we even know what the exact response is going to be.

Of course, my hope and prayer is that Mr. Lynn will just do the right thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with people contacting Americans United and encouraging him to just do the right thing.

Try being consistent with your own position, in fact, and allow people to judge for themselves. It is very, very obvious that Mr. Lynn knew exactly what he was getting into. It was very obvious he knew it was being videotaped.

It was very obvious he knew he was going to be getting his own copy of the videotape. It was very obvious he knew he'd be able to distribute that videotape, etc., etc., etc., but just because the debate did not go the way he wanted to go is no reason to attempt to suppress it.

That's not the first time we've seen that happen. Some of you may not be aware of the fact that, for example, the videotapes of the debates that I did with Mitchell Pacwa on justification and the mass sit languishing somewhere on a shelf.

The Roman Catholics who paid for that videotaping have never distributed the videotapes of those particular debates. I think they should be distributed, but those are out there. Then we have, of course, the infamous videotapes from the debate with Tim Staples in July of 2000 on the subject of papal infallibility, which were promised to us.

To this day, St. Joseph's Communications has refused to act with integrity and keep their own word, and that's why we cannot have anything to do with them in the future, because they may tell you, we'll do X, Y, and Z, and then turn around and say, you know what, we don't want to do X, Y, and Z.

There's nothing you can do about it. You can't trust those folks, and therefore you cannot deal with them. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago. We discussed the possibility of a debate on the subject of Mary or on the subject of predestination with Tim Staples.

So anyways, that situation continues. It is ongoing. Now, we are famous or infamous, depending on which direction you put it. We are infamous in not doing a good job in keeping a calendar current on the website so people know what in the world is going on.

And so just to let you know, for those of you, especially back in the New York area, we did not skip this year's festivities, shall we say. We, in point of fact, have moved, yes, coming up in May of 1991.

That is probably what's on there someplace. Anyways, normally the debate, the great debate takes place in May, and it didn't this year because I'm still teaching. I'll be done teaching. Thank you. I'll be done teaching here next week, the week after next actually.

And so everything is in July. I, in fact, will be gone all of July. I mean, basically, I think I'm home maybe three, four days in all of July, grand total. I first head off to Georgia, and I'm practicing my southern accent so that I can preach to the folks down there in Georgia and understand what I'm saying because I think I just put too much enunciation of what I'm saying when I talk like this, when I normally talk, you know.

So that was pretty good. Anyways, I don't know if we'll be doing any dividing lines in July. Actually, I'm sure we will be. I just think we need to get some other people to finally step up to the plate, you know.

We have good old clay toss that might be able to do some things, and we could always get some people to participate in the program that maybe haven't in the past. But we'll do something, and we'll be covering that.

But the big debate right now, we wanted, thank you very much, Skyman, just said that my accent stinks. But then again, who's to define what the Georgia accent is supposed to sound like anyways? But anyways, the big debate is July 11th on the subject of the veneration of saints, or the communion of saints, as Roman Catholicism likes to put it.

And I was doing some preparation on that this week. And in fact, for those of you, and I think this would be sort of interesting for some of you to do if you're interested in, you sound like Forrest Gump.

Well, I did sort of sound a little bit like Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump was down from that direction. That's why I sound like Forrest Gump. Critics everywhere. Critics around the corners. Critics in the chat channels.

Critics everywhere. It's terrible. Anyways, it's interesting. The debate in July is on the subject of the communion of saints. And it's with Patrick Madrid. Now, Patrick Madrid has written a book, Any Friend of God's is a Friend of Mine.

So I sort of think I have fairly good documentation here as to exactly where Mr. Madrid's going to be going. Thank you. A Californian just told me that my Georgia accent was good. So I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I'll let that slide.

Anyways, I was doing some preparation just this week. Some of you who are not familiar with this subject might find taking a look at Madrid's book, Any Friend of God's is a Friend of Mine, as a way of sort of preparing to listen to the debate.

I have some background. I really think a lot of folks would get more out of the debates if instead of it being the first time they heard about the subject, they might try to stop reading the channel because now I'm being offered roadkill when I go to Georgia.

I've already asked, do you have McDonald's in Georgia? And I've been told they do, so I think I will be able to survive. You don't have to sneak out at night to get my one day worth of sustenance. But anyhow, I think a lot of folks would probably get more out of some of these debates if it wasn't the first time they'd heard the subject.

If there was some preparation, some reading into the subject prior to the examination of it, I think that might actually help a lot in being able to evaluate the arguments. I think that's one of the problems that some folks have when they come to debates, is if they're not even familiar slightly with the nature of the debate, then it's very, very easy to become confused by cheap debating tricks, I guess is the way to put it.

So if you're interested in the subject of the debate we're going to be having on the communion of saints, there is a book that you could be looking at. As far as responses to that, I thought Calvin's response in the Institutes of the Christian Religion was very good, and there are others like that.

Most of the writers during the period of the Reformation and in the centuries thereafter addressed the issue in one way, shape, or form, or another. Let's see, what's some other subjects? I've got two books to tell you about, and at least one, two debates to make sure you know are available.

Let's start with the debates. We received the CDs containing the audio portion of the George Bryson debate. Have we gotten that posted anywhere yet? Is that going to be the first thing we do on MP3? No, we're not selling it yet.

Is that what I'm being told? We're waiting, waiting to see if what we got was the final edition. Is that what we're waiting on? Because it was. So you can now make a decision as to... Hopefully we get the videotapes this week, and maybe what you're thinking of is pulling some sound off the videotapes.

Yeah, I know, but that's what's available. We're going to have to look this week, I guess, once we get the videotapes to see whether there's a section where the sound got bad for a while. Don't ask me why.

I mean, we're at the Anaheim Vineyard. It's not like they've not recorded things there before. But the sound got bad for a while, and we're going to have to see if it does on the videos as well. And if it does, then we just have to go with it, and there's really not much we can do about it.

But those tapes should be available fairly soon. I know you can buy them from other places, but it's going to have the editing issues when you buy from any place right now, unless we can do some work on it.

I don't have any idea what happened, and I've noticed in listening just briefly to some sections of it, even when the sound is good, it sounds like George Bryson is right in front of you, and I'm sort of down a hallway someplace yelling at you, even though we were both wearing lapel mics.

I don't really know how in the world that took place. But anyways, we have honestly been doing everything in our power to get those tapes and get them on the website and make them available. Honestly, I've become a pain to the people in California who haven't been moving real fast to get us the information and get us the tapes.

We know there are people who want to hear this, especially those of you who would like to share them with family and friends, shall we say, who are constantly bringing up the same objections that Mr. Bryson raised in that particular debate.

Someone just said sell a transcript of the tapes. Well, he who suggests can then provide the transcript. So I bet you anything Mr. Pierce would not be opposed to the giving of a free set of the tapes to anyone who would then provide us the perfect transcript thereof.

I think that would be very nice. The receiver from your lapel mic was messing up. I saw them fiddling with it. Well, that's wonderful. That's good to know. I wonder how I ended up with that one. I guess Providence or something.

But anyways, we will have those available. Have we put the video and audio of the debate with Gilbert Scharffs on the website as yet? Because that one's all ours. Not yet. Okay. Not yet, I will. Yes, I know that you will.

But is this going to be like a Christmas offering? What? Okay, you're waiting until maybe someone passes from this earth to make it available or something? Post-mortem debate or something? I mean, gracious.

Anyways, it will be made available because the person that recorded it is right here, so we can't blame anybody else for not having it available. But those will be made available as well. Now, if you go to aomin .org, you will notice that we have items on what we call the ad column on the right-hand side.

It keeps getting longer and longer and longer. It's got The God Who Justifies and The Sola Scriptura set. And I just keep cranking these books out. And as a result, we have lots of things to offer. And I've hardly even mentioned, except in passing, the new books that have come out over the past month or so.

They finally arrived here at our ministry. And the first one that arrived from Bethany House Publishers, we've talked about it many times before, at least as far as the subject goes, is The Same-Sex Controversy, Defending and Clarifying the Bible's Message about Homosexuality.

I co-wrote this work with Jeff Neal. And I've done a couple of programs anyways on this subject. I did Janet Partial and possibly some other programs yet in the future that we will be looking at being involved in as far as discussion of this particular subject.

I was told, I didn't see it, that there was a town hall-type meeting on the subject of homosexuality that was broadcast last night. And it is amazing. I've been watching some of the discussion about the possibility of a gay baseball player as well.

And it is amazing how it has become absolutely positively second nature to everyone in our society to simply say, well, you know, we've certainly grown past the days when we would have any problem with something like this.

In fact, here locally in the Phoenix area, I just happened on Friday morning to turn on the radio and a local talk show host was discussing this subject. And a rather hot-headed fundamentalist called in, had a chip on his shoulder a mile wide, and was more than happy to use all sorts of off-color language to describe homosexuals.

He obviously shot himself in the foot from the moment he got on the air. But the host, of course, ran with this and mocked Christianity, even though he was raised Southern Baptist, as a particular individual was.

And, of course, the host had to also then begin to discuss theological issues, which is always a dangerous thing. And he started to say, well, you know, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Everything Jesus ever said, he said, is found only in the four Gospels.

Well, actually, he's wrong about that there. He forgot about the book of Revelation. He forgot about the quotation of Jesus found in Acts, so on and so forth. But he assured us that all the words of Jesus are only in the four Gospels, and nowhere in the four Gospels will you find discussion of homosexuality.

And I was not in a position to call in and try to correct him at that particular point in time, but it's very, very common to hear these kinds of things repeated, and Christians need to know how to give a response.

And that's what the same-sex controversy is all about, and we're making that available on our website, and we really hope that it helps people to understand what they believe and where they're going.

By the way, we're certainly open today for your phone calls and your participation in the program, 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341, that is a toll-free number. 877 -753 -3341. Yeah, I thought about sending a copy to that particular host, too, but I just haven't gotten around to it.

There's lots of things I'd like to do, and I keep forgetting them. 877 -753 -3341. If you have questions or comments that you would like to make, that's the number that you can call and get on the program today.

Then you'll notice a brand-new book just appeared on the website. Well, actually, I think it went up a week ago Friday, but we didn't see it until Wednesday. I think this is my 18th book titled, Dangerous Airwaves Harold Camping Refuted and Christ Church Defended, a title that I did not make up on my own, nor did I make up the same-sex controversy.

In fact, I would probably never title a book with the word controversy in it because I'm sick of it, but that's just the way it is. Anyways, Dangerous Airwaves Harold Camping Refuted and Christ Church Defended is now in print.

We won't have to change that toll-free number again. There are three sevens in it. 877. Well, not only that, but if you add three and four together, that makes seven, and the three and the three and the one makes seven.

So there could actually sort of be more sevens in it than that. If you look at it sort of like Gail Riplinger would see it. Yes, it's divine because it's always above six. So I've got to stop reading what you people are typing to me because it's really weird.

Anyways, Dangerous Airwaves obviously is a niche book. That is, if you've never heard of Harold Camping, if family radio is not on in your area, and if nobody in your area ever stumbles across family radio, you might not be overly interested in the subject, of course.

We've discussed Harold Camping on the program before, and there is a defense of Christ Church, the perpetuity of Christ Church, the importance of church membership, the role of the church in God's plan.

So there is a, I think, something to be very useful to a wide range of folks, even if you're not familiar with Camping. But if there's a family radio outlet in your area, and there are many of them, and especially in reformed churches, then Dangerous Airwaves is a book you're going to want to look at.

It will also help you to address the subject of allegorical interpretation, and that, of course, is something that Mr. Camping promotes tremendously. He doesn't call it that very often. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard him call it that.

But what he'll say is, the spiritual meaning is this, and the spiritual meaning is that, so on and so forth. And these are allegorical interpretations that he offers. The actual meaning of the text is irrelevant to Harold Camping.

The only thing that matters is what he can see as the spiritual meaning, and you put it all together and cobble together a theology, and that's what Dangerous Airwaves deals with is Harold Camping's strange theology, wherein he is teaching that the church has ended, there are no more elders, there are no more deacons, there is no more baptism, there is no more Lord's Supper, etc., etc.

That is what he's teaching. He is teaching people to gather together. In fact, it was interesting. I just happened today to punch the button on my radio while I was actually going to pick up my bike at the bike shop, and punched the button, and up came the local family radio here.

And the announcer at one point made the statement. I want to try to be accurate here. He said something along the lines of, you need to start your week in fellowship with God's people. A week that starts with fellowship with God's people will be a good week, or something along those lines.

Obviously, it caught my attention, because of the fact that he wouldn't say you need to be in church on the Lord's Day. Instead, you start your week with fellowship with God's people. That's what camping is teaching, is that now there are these fellowships and all the rest of this stuff.

Dangerous Airwaves takes him on directly. There's another reason why you need to get this book. I'm going to be very honest with you. Let's say you don't care about Herald Camping, and you, in fact, cannot stand listening to Herald Camping, anything along those lines at all.

Let's say you do not want to listen to Herald Camping saying things like this.

Oh, you know it would help if I did that, right? That would have sounded so good. If you disobey again, I'm going to have to spank you, maybe, or deprive you of something.

Maybe you don't want to hear Herald Camping saying stuff like that. And, of course, out of context, you listen to that and you just go, okay, that was interesting. Oh, my. Oh, my, it's true, yeah. As a result, you might just sit there listening to something like that and do like this.

Oh, my, oh, my.

Sure. Sound off. Thank you very much, CDS, for playing that one on the air. That actually came from a dividing line. I cannot believe how good that sounded. I mean, that was recorded by somebody over the net and then sent back.

It really sounded really, really good. I've now turned all the sound requests off. Sorry about who's playing sounds. Sorry, they're not going to work. Anyways, one of the reasons you need to get this book is one of the chapters is called The Debate That Almost Was.

The Debate That Almost Was. I think there's someone on our chat show who might not like the grammar of that. But, anyways, The Debate That Almost Was. And what happened was Chris Arnzen, who has called this program more than once, and Chris Arnzen, who is famous for his parody songs, Chris Arnzen, who is famous for his comedy, Chris Arnzen, who is famous for many things that he probably wishes he wasn't famous for, but the organizer of all the debates on Long Island, etc., etc., etc.

Chris Arnzen called Harold Camping. And that particular chapter is the result of that call. And what we did was we sent that to someone who is in our chat channel even now. He is the love child of Bill Gates, and that means he's a Microsoft certified engineer, actually.

But, anyways, this poor persecuted man, he took the time to transcribe this entire thing, and the man has been absolutely changed by that experience. I mean, he really has. He will tell you to this day, he's developed a facial tic, and he has nightmares, and, in fact, I don't think he even wants this book, because it will bring back the memories of having to listen to that material over and over again.

But I'm really glad that he did, because it provided an excellent chapter in the book. It was just really well done, the opportunity of hearing Mr. Arnzen asking all these probing questions of Harold Camping.

And though MDH, the fellow in the channel, really gave his all for us to have that, you need to get the book for that chapter and one other thing. But I've been told I need to take a break, and so I'm going to have to take the break before I tell you what the other thing is.

But we'll tell you on the other side of this break. We'll be right back.

Justification by Faith and the New Books

The history of the Christian church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation, the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book, The God Who Justifies, theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of, understanding of, and dedication to the great doctrine of justification, and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel. In today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute, James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith.

Dr. Jay Adams says, I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading.

There is solid meat throughout. An outstanding contribution in every sense of the words. The God Who Justifies by Dr. James White. Get your copy today at AOMN .org.

More than any time in the past, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils. They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements.

And many Evangelicals are finding the history, tradition, and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing. This newfound rapport has caused many Evangelical leaders and lay people to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics.

Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book, The Roman Catholic Controversy, is an absorbing look at current views of tradition and scripture, the papacy, the mass, purgatory and indulgences, and Marian doctrine.

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the Gospel itself that cannot be ignored. Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at AOMN .org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the Gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org, where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

God's Decree, Human Responsibility, and Fatalistic Determinism

The tabernacle, I guess, would be symbolic, in a sense, of the Old Covenant activity. We now have all of... I'm not sure if I'm saying it right.

Well, I'm not sure. I just don't see that the issue... I see nothing in Scripture that says that the issue... the reason why there has been a change as far as the location of someone is due to... something hadn't been finished yet and therefore they couldn't enter into the presence of God or something along those lines.

I don't see that that's... I've never heard of it before, to be perfectly honest with you, so I can't really comment on it, but I've certainly never seen anything that would substantiate that.

So that's all I can really say about it. So you don't see any difference at all between, I guess, the conditions of Abraham's justification and ours?

No, there's no other... What other condition of justification could there be?

Well, I'm only saying because I make the distinction, and I'm willing to be wrong, but I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong in my interpretation of Scripture, but in reading the Scripture, there's a distinction between God's forgiveness of Abraham and what he received on the cross.

In other words, paid for him until he died on the cross.

Well, all of that is trying to put things into some sort of temporal succession, some sort of temporal order or something like that, and again, the only place Scripture gets into that is the discussion of Romans chapter 3 and talking about passing over sins previously committed.

And I just don't see that the issue is, well, the sins have been forgiven, but they haven't been paid for, I suppose, in some sort of temporal sense, you could make that assertion, but I don't think God is limited to that.

Hello, I think we lost Johnny there. No, I'm right here. Okay, I don't know what happened there, but I just don't see Paul emphasizing that. I really don't. I'm not sure what's going on with the beep beep there, but maybe is someone trying to call you?

Nope. Oh, okay. Well, anyways, I've never heard the position that you're suggesting, so I really don't have a whole lot of comment to be able to make on it because I've just never heard of it before. Sorry.

All right, then. Okay, man. Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye-bye. 877 -753 -3341, and I don't I see lights, but I have no idea if there's anybody else online. Nothing has been cleared as far as giving me information as to who's calling or what they're calling about, but I know there's some more folks in there for some reason.

I will now start singing so that someone can have time to you're probably hitting something you're unaware of causing that beep. No, that was coming into my headsets from some other place. I don't know where it was coming from, but I don't exactly know what it was.

All right, yes. Let's go ahead and talk with Paul. Paul, are you with us? Yes. How are you doing, sir?

I'm okay. How are you? I'm not doing half bad. Okay. Well, I was just calling on May 20th. Yep.

I've heard a lot about it. In fact, it's probably the single call that I've gotten well, I'll take that back. There's only been one other call that I've gotten more people asking me about it, and that was when oh, I forget when it was, and they replayed this program at least three times, so it sort of developed a life of its own.

When Norman Geisler, in essence, said that Roman Catholicism was orthodox on most issues of the Gospel and so on and so forth, and basically said if you make forensic justification an issue of the Gospel, then no one believed in the Gospel up until the Reformation and all the rest of that stuff.

We even ended up doing a whole program on that back when we were on KPXQ because the Bible Answer Man played the hour before we were on, and that was the last question, and I was just like, man, I've got to address this, and we went nuts with it.

So I'd say this is the second most popular call as far as people calling us and emailing us and all the rest of that stuff, so yeah, I'm familiar with it.

Well, it was I mean, I'm still investigating.

As I understand, there were a couple problems with the call. First of all, the caller was willing to accept that it is accurate to identify the Calvinistic position as fatalistic determinism. Fatalism is impersonal.

Fatalism is there is a vast difference between saying that God has a sovereign purpose in bringing about his own glory through the redemption of an elect people in Jesus Christ and fatalism. You could not possibly identify those two things together.

So while determinism would be true, that is that there is a decree that determines what takes place in time, fatalistic would not be true because that would deny any personal element to the determination of what takes place.

So that was the first thing. The caller accepted a designation that was just simply untrue. That's the first thing. Secondly, as I understand, the statement that was made in fact, I saw it given in our chat channel.

A number of people actually went back and typed the whole thing out to give us the exact quote. And I don't have it in front of me, but I think I'm going to be pretty close. And that is, Hank said, I believe that Calvinists are believers, are Christians.

They just don't realize that the logical conclusion of their system is that God is the author of evil. And Hank certainly does know that the Westminster Confession of Faith, for example, very, very clearly denies that a belief in God's absolute sovereignty makes God the author of evil.

And I did hear a comment, and it's very, very common for people to make the assertion, well, what you're saying is that God forces people to be evil. And that's where we need to, I think, provide a response to that kind of assertion.

First of all, I think it's just fair to say, now, Reformed people very, very, very strongly deny that they are making God the author of evil. But a person could say, I believe that they are wrong, or I believe that they are inconsistent, or whatever.

But it needs to be stated, they very clearly say they do not. And it would be helpful if you'd also explain why they say that God is not the author of evil. And that is that God makes use of means, that the Reformed position recognizes the role of free creatures, not autonomous creatures.

And a lot of folks confuse those two terms. And also to recognize the assertion of the deadness of man in sin. And I think that's one of the main, I think it's the main area of disagreement with what Hank's position is and the position of many non-Reformed people is.