February 4, 2022 Show with Jason Wallace on “The Illegitimacy of Homosexual Christians”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and those who are listening internationally over the internet at ironsharpensironradio .com

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of February 2022 and as long as I have been alive for most of my nearly 60 years of existence those who identified themselves as homosexuals were either vehemently anti -christian perhaps even atheist and the other category would be those in mainline liberal protestant denominations who are apostate and redefine what the scriptures teach about homosexuality denying that it is a sin in fact even applauding it as something to be celebrated but there has been a phenomenon in recent years where homosexuals those that are professing to be active homosexuals are also identifying in some cases as evangelical

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Christians as those who actually believe that the scriptures are

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God -breathed and we are going to be addressing the issue of so -called homosexual

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Christians today with someone who has done a lot of biblical research on this issue has produced videos on this issue and his name is

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Jason Wallace a dear friend of mine pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna Utah which is a congregation in the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination he is also the producer of LDS video which features videos critiquing and exposing the

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Mormon faith for the false and damnable doctrines they believe and teach and as well as many other issues facing the body of Christ today we are going to be specifically addressing the theme the illegitimacy of homosexual

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Christians and it's my honor and you back. Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Jason Wallace.

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Chris, always a pleasure to be with you. Yes indeed tell our listeners about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna Utah.

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We're a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church we're in basically the northwest corner of the

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Salt Lake Valley so only about 12 miles from downtown Salt Lake and we are coming up on our 24th anniversary and we actually have an old

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Mormon war building that had gone through a number of hands before we got it but we have a sister congregation in Clearfield and we have a mission work down in Cedar City.

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Yeah are those two recent developments? Our sister church has been around for a little while previous pastor left from one of the mass behind him so I started going up and preaching and the

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Lord's been blessing we're hoping they'll eventually be able to call a pastor again but they're doing much better and I preach there at 9 and preach in Magna at 11 and then we have some folks reach out to us down in southern

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Utah and then after going from Clearfield to Magna then

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I drive 250 more miles to Cedar City and preach down there

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I've been doing that since June. If anybody wants more information about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna Utah go to gospel

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Utah org gospel Utah org and hopefully I will remember to repeat that information later on in the program.

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So Pastor Wallace would you agree or is your experience the same as mine as far as your understanding of the homosexual reaction to Christianity over the years as I was saying earlier for most of my life when

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I was old enough to even know what a homosexual was they were either anti -christian in fact

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I can remember a day and age when most homosexual activists that were in public guests on talk shows and things they were even opposed to the idea of marriage they did not see a need to adopt a

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Christian or religious celebration to justify their activity and now of course you have multitudes of homosexual activists and average citizens who are involved in that practice and even just liberals who support that activity who are celebrating the fact that tragically all across the world in many countries including the

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United States homosexual marriage has been legalized but the

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Christian identity of those involved in the damnable sin of homosexuality if there was an identity as a

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Christian it was really solely in the realm of mainline liberal and apostate churches obviously they would never identify themselves as apostate but those that had abandoned the inerrancy of the scriptures long ago those that even have clergy that deny the deity of Christ and other pillars of the

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Christian faith but now we have professing evangelicals and even in that realm you have two categories you have those that are even pastors and seminary professors and power church organization leaders who will say that homosexuality is indeed a sin but they themselves will still identify as celibate or chaste gay

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Christians and then you have on the other side of the evangelical or professed evangelical realm those involved in homosexual activity who say that there is nothing sinful about monogamous homosexual relationships in marriage so would you say that your knowledge of what the reaction or response to Christianity has been by the homosexual community if you want to use the liberal phrase we know that that is an improper use of the

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English language but those that identify as homosexual would you say that that is pretty much what you have recognized over the years that the shift from either atheist anti -christian or liberal to a professed identity with evangelicalism most definitely

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I mean honestly what I think we're seeing to some extent is I mean it started with the mainline churches but the evangelical churches to a great extent are going down the same road that the mainline went down before it you go back and you read how the mainline got to where they are it was not so much the

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German higher criticism and things like this in that that definitely eroded people's confidence in the scriptures but to a great extent it was people just trying to be popular they didn't want to offend people and they were you look at the argumentation that was made back in the 20s and the 30s and the 40s and later through the mainline it's the same argumentation being made by many evangelicals today we we just want to love people into Christ we want to reflect the love of Christ and you know they they find themselves against the people my brain just flipped a gear the primitive

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Baptist congregation that protests funerals yes

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I know that the God hates fags Westboro Baptist Church Westboro Baptist there were people doing things like that all through time and people people who are looking to embrace and seem loving there's always been someone they could define themselves against and you know the reality is neither one of those there is a there is a message of forgiveness for all sinners but the but those who think that they have come to Christ and can continue in their sins and all says don't be deceived the unrighteous will not inherit

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God so there is there is something unique about this and yet honestly what we're seeing today it's been going on more in the in the mainline section not quite so visibly but now it's come to the fore and you have the oh yeah that's just annoying pop -ups on the computer and I have not yet figured out how to silence that no problem just wanted to make sure that I'm lost you there right but you know long story short we've seen this before meanwhile in the culture at large the sexual revolution has thrown gas on the fire and you know the church used to discipline people for living together outside of marriage most evangelical churches don't seem to do that anymore and you know what once you've once you've embraced one part of the sexual revolution where do you stop so yeah it's everywhere it's particularly an issue here in Utah our previous mayor was an open lesbian and she didn't run again but they were very proud to announce last month that the new

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City Council for the first time the majority of the City Council of Salt Lake City Utah are

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LGBT when when people I mean it it goes on with people who are doing it behind the scenes in Mormonism for a whole host of reasons but especially when they leave

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Mormonism we're considered one of the gayest cities in America Wow I never would have guessed that oh yeah yeah it's and Magna is is near Salt Lake and is it near Provo yeah because today

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Salt Lake is more more clearly identified as a cosmic cosmopolitan kind of an area where you might expect more homosexuals to be active but Provo is obviously a lot more conservative but the

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Mormon cult the Mormon religion excuse me as you would think oh really before COVID hit the

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BYU administration changed their honor code to remove prohibitions on same -sex activity

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Wow even for faculty it was the honor code for everyone and the way the way that one professor was explaining it after having talked to the honor code office was that of course no sex outside of marriage but that now could be doing all the things that with each other that a guy and a girl could get away with so holding hands in public hugging one another kissing one another on campus they could do all those things obviously you're referring to in a romantic fashion because even we who are brothers in Christ perhaps not so much from Calvinist backgrounds but but men do hug men and women do hug women but in a brotherly and sisterly fashion and but I have heard well you just alluded to it about Brigham Young University but I have heard that even the

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Mormon cult the Mormon religion is starting to backtrack and reverse official positions on homosexuality is that true to a great extent they're trying to keep everybody happy and so they will when when they had two girls kissing in front of the

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Brigham Young statue at BYU they quickly did a press release that they really hadn't changed anything and then that led to protests and COVID came and sort of bailed them out and they never

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I never heard clarification on what they exactly were allowing but the but in terms of the church itself when when their support for Proposition 8 sort of blew up in their face they got it passed in California but they weren't prepared for the vitriol that was directed against them they quickly gave a substantial but undefined gift to the

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Utah Pride Center and they started working with homosexuals to pass what were first local ordinances but eventually became state law they were first working behind the scenes but then they end up doing a big press conference where they were owning you know what they were doing but they basically to prevent discrimination in housing or employment based on sexual orientation or identity and then two

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Mormon Republican legislators put forward something that as information came out it became apparent that the

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Mormon Church was part of drafting it first first they said that they they did not oppose it and as more and more information came out basically they helped draft it to make a law prohibiting gay conversion therapy to be given by state licensed counselors or therapists now that is a broad term

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I believe you probably are aware of gay conversion therapy can mean almost anything it could include things that even

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Christians would disagree with because we believe that sure that transformation of a lost sinner even one involved in the unnatural and abominable and damnable sin of homosexuality comes through the gospel comes through repentance that is given through the activity of the

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Holy Spirit in someone's life and there are I mean

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I've heard about it you never know how much accuracy you're receiving from the media these days or perhaps in any era of the media's existence but but you

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I've heard of so -called gay conversion therapies that are you know very strange and involved fit involved physical discomfort imposed upon the person in certain ways to you know basically punish them for certain thoughts and that kind of thing that's things that were really weird let's face it so we're not you're not talking about an opposition to you are not opposed or you should

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I say you are not in favor is a better word of saying it you're not in favor of everything that calls itself gay conversion therapy

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I mean I think that you know the behavioral modification stuff is secular and I mean

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I think that it's ungodly and you know at best it it changed it can change behavior but it doesn't change our nature you know only only

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Christ can change our hearts and so the problem with this law that the

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Mormon Church helped draft was that there was no distinction and so whether you were talking you know they would give horror stories of electroshock therapy and various other you know negative reinforcement types of treatments but it wasn't just those that they were trying to get rid of they were trying to get rid of any type of therapy including just talking to someone right and you know that being confused as a teenager is not an unusual thing and that you know they're they're thinking that they have been put in the wrong body is not true and so but the

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Mormon Church has really backpedaled tremendously they there was a the lead singer of Imagine Dragons is a returned

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Mormon missionary I think the whole band is former Mormons but he's very embarrassed of it and he did a big concert here what's the name of the band

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I'm sorry what is the name of the band imagine dragons okay and so they did a big concert here called

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Love Loud and the Mormon Church I think at first tried to ignore it but then they ended up embracing it and a few years ago we had the

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Democratic nominee for US Senate who got nearly 40 % of the state vote was a transsexual grocery clerk so it is not yet quite clear whether the actual official dogma if you will teaching of Mormonism is accepting homosexual behavior it's kind of would you say that this is just the the position of many individuals and even institutions like BYU but not official inerrant dogma if you will

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I don't know if they call it dogma but teaching that is you know from the apostles that they believe still exist and so on well they they got they received

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I forget the dates but a few years ago they supposedly received a revelation from God that they were not to baptize children at eight years old from the homes that were homosexual parents about two years later they received a new revelation saying forget the first revelation well as the church lady used to say how convenient they have always had convenient revelations haven't they going going back to polygamy and then to their abolishment of segregation and the inclusion of blacks into the priesthood and into the choir and all those realms where they were previously banned they they seem to have convenient revelations from from God when either popular opinion or the law are breathing down their neck it's a business for for the leader for much of the leadership

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I mean there are people who are very sincere uh they think they really are part of the one true church upon the face of the earth but um the leadership definitely bends to which way the winds are blowing and I don't really see them being able to stand up to the to the

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LGBT juggernaut now I know this is not the topic of our discussion today

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I also know you're not a prophet nor do you pretend to be one but from from what you know about Mormonism and being in an area where you are surrounded by Mormons I'm assuming

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Christianity is a minority where you are very much do you have any instinctive um views and opinions as to whether uh being educated of course from being in the area where you live and where you conduct ministry uh do you have any views on whether or not the

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Mormon cult will continue to split I mean it's already gone through many splits over the last century and a half but uh do you see a more major split in the official uh church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints on the horizon what were these things I honestly don't see it

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I think really it's it it honestly seems primed for it

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I uh there there was a guy uh Denver Snufford actually his name who

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Mormons do tend to have unusual names not not all of them but many of them do yeah this guy actually is a convert so he had the unusual name before he joined the

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Mormons but okay he's an attorney and he has claimed direct revelations from God um and that he seemed to call the stir a number of years ago but I don't

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I don't see anybody who has the charisma to pull it off and the leadership itself is so tightly controlled that I don't see anybody from within the high within the general authorities you know splitting you know trying to split the church so I mean most of these guys are businessmen they're not uh and you know

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I forget how old the current prophet is I think he's 94 something like that and it's just the the whole system is such that I I don't see someone rising up to take you know a big chunk of the people away you know there are little groups that do split off but they don't seem to get very much traction and honestly with the the rise of the internet so many various things

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Utah I mean what you see in Salt Lake is what I think is going to represent more and more all of Utah when

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I mean when girls are kissing in front of Brigham Young statue at BYU I just I don't think that there's that many conservative

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Mormons who are really looking to go back to old Mormonism to me it seems like it's going to go the way of the um what used to be called the reorganized uh

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints the RLDS right they're not they're now called the beauties of Christ and you know they may openly support homosexual activity correct oh yeah yeah yeah they they've been so you know they they basically affirm anyone everyone and what they want to do and I think

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Mormonism seems to be moving that general direction how fast it's going to move I can't tell so the hardcore conservatives in that cult are likely going to behave in your opinion in your educated opinion like the multitudes of politically conservative and socially and morally conservative individuals who remain

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Roman Catholic even though their pope is a Marxist and the most left -leaning pope in the history of their religion and even beyond that you have many people who are politically socially and morally conservative that just because they may have been raised in the

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United Methodist Church or the PCUSA or whatever liberal and even apostate denomination they may be a part of they are just remaining uh in membership there because there is a likelihood they're not even regenerate they're just conservative so you're saying that am

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I correct that that's probably a parallel yeah I mean the heart of Mormonism is shut up and do what you're told it if you watch there's a movie if you ever want to get a sense of the the inner thoughts of a lot of Mormons watch the movie

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Singles Ward uh you've got a guy that his wife leaves him he ends up going back to the singles ward and he's somewhat embittered with Mormonism and he's making he's a stand -up comic he's making jokes about it a lot of things that Mormons would laugh at themselves over but at the end of the movie he finds love and happiness by just shutting up and doing what he's told and you know it's it's the church that saves you it's the church that has uh the ordinances it's the church that that has the priesthood authority it's the church that has everything and so you know you can grumble but long story short church isn't perfect but it's it's the only true and living church on the face of the earth now when we come back

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I don't want to belabor the issue because that's not the focus of our attention today well it's not supposed to be but I do want to ask you about the exodus of uh conservative

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Mormons from that cult of those that agree with biblical morality and so on and we'll continue with the main theme of the illegitimacy of homosexual

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Christians when we come back if you have questions for Pastor Jason Wallace on this issue our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence if you live outside the

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USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could easily understand an issue like homosexuality evoking questions that are personal and private they may involve the very people that are asking the questions they may involve their spouses their children something that would compel them to remain anonymous we completely understand that but if it's just a general question please give us your first name city and state and country of residence we'll be right back with Jason Wallace after these messages from our sponsors church is one foundation is jesus christ her lord since 2007 anchored in truth ministries has hosted the annual true church conference at grace life church of the shoals in muscle shoals alabama this conference began as a training conference for pastors and church leaders who are striving to build true biblically healthy churches conference themes have included church discipline repentance discipleship conversion hyper -calvinism the family the doctrine of sin and the pretenders anchored in truth ministries we'd like to invite you to the 2022 true church conference which will be held from february 17th through the 20th the theme of the conference will be healthy body life in the local church specifically as it pertains to biblical church discipline biblical counseling biblical conflict resolution and protecting the sheep from savage wolves the scheduled speakers for the conference are daryl harrison virgil walker jeff noblin jonathan sims richard caldwell david miller and barry king for more information or to register for the conference please visit anchored in truth .org

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that's nasbible .com to place your order welcome back this is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is my dear friend of many years jason wallace pastor of christ presbyterian church in magna utah which is a congregation in the orthodox presbyterian church our topic today is the illegitimacy of homosexual christians and our email address if you have a question is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state and country of residence if you're asking a question only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and i want to uh make it clear to our listeners i don't know if i did in the first half hour of the program i want to make it clear that pastor jason and i are being firm in our opposition to the sin of homosexuality not because we hate these individuals and not because we want to see them destroyed and we or that we delight in the fact that unrepentant homosexuals do go to hell for eternity we take no joy in that and the very reason that we're speaking out against it is because we love these people and we want to see them come to repentance and we want them to be spared of hell and we want them to be in eternity with christ and us and the only way that a uh an honest christian who truly loves homosexuals and has an ounce of integrity the only way that we should respond to people seeking to defend it especially biblically is to expose these alleged biblical defenses as lies just as we would with any other teachings that are false like the teachings of cults and false religions so i want to make that clear uh no matter what you say there will always be people that think what we are involved in today is hate speech i have had a number of people in the past contact me after doing similar programs on similar themes who have accused me and my guests of being hateful including a professed member of a conservative presbyterian church uh because uh sadly uh and i want to make it clear that i'm not broad brushing the uh ministers and members of the presbyterian church in america the pca but there is an element in that denomination that is strongly affirming the existence of gay christians christians that are homosexual in their inclination and desire but who remain chaste and celibate uh they think that that is a completely legitimate category of christian and a completely legitimate category of even men eligible for ordination to elder or deacon so uh that is quite a sad development in church history but now i return to our actual discussion with jason and before the break i said i wanted to ask you if there is an exodus of conservatives within the mormon cult an exodus out of that cult because of the uh the seduction of homosexuality um that has that this religion this cult has succumbed to i'm not seeing much of it honestly really yeah i mean coveted has has thrown everything into somewhat disarray um the mormon church didn't meet for a long period of time it may have been over a year uh they weren't meeting at all uh they canceled their april 2020 general conference uh at the live event you could actually attend and they're they're doing it for this april as well um so the mormon you know a lot of folks just haven't even been going uh when they did start services back up it was only a limited number who could come and so some of these tensions that might have spilled over uh two years ago kind of got diffused a bit but i've watched a lot of socially conservative mormons that when push comes to shove they're going to follow their prophet into whatever he tells them it doesn't matter um what you know they may personally dislike uh mormonism there was one conservative guy that was talking about the love loud uh concert the red concert this love loud concert okay uh it was meant to promote um uh lgbt acceptance and uh this guy went and he had been very socially conservative before but after he went to the concert with the uh encouragement of his bishop he came back singing his praises and basically you know when push comes to shove the prophet is the voice of god they don't have a higher authority than the prophet so there's not there's not a major exodus is it opening some people's eyes to where they're they're questioning the whole mormon structure yes but there's not there's not a great exodus at this point that i'm seeing how about a decline in conversions to mormonism probably uh the you know the missionaries aren't really selling mormonism per se they're selling um a burning in your bosom uh they're telling you that the reasons you've been frustrated with other churches is not your fault it's theirs uh so they're probably probably not a huge dent in their conversions but honestly a lot of their conversions are very nominal and you know the reports i hear are that in places like uh latin america maybe 20 of their actual membership is semi -active you know not real active but just semi -active you know they they baptize people they get them on the rolls and they never see them again unless the person is looking for some kind of help from the church financially so yeah they're they've clearly popped up their statistics for a lot of years but um they're not having the same success they had 20 years ago but i think they're still having some success out there well uh going back to our discussion on the illegitimacy of homosexual christians we all expect those who deny the inerrancy of scripture or those that don't even acknowledge that scripture is from god we we have no difficulty understanding why they would be completely comfortable uh not only being involved in that damnable and unnatural sin but promoting it even if that is not their inclination as being something completely acceptable and not only something to be tolerated but something to be celebrated but i just mentioned before the disturbing phenomenon that has continued to rise even amongst professing reformed christians that will say there is a state of being that is acceptable to god where one has an uninterrupted ongoing inclination towards same -sex attraction for the entirety of their lives and have even reached the point where they don't even pray for a transformation in regard to this they they they actually identify themselves as being homosexual likely because they were born that way and they don't even see any ray of hope that they will ever change uh and the the only thing redeemable about their position is that they acknowledge homosexuality as a sin but the the sad part is that they very often only acknowledge it as a sin if the senate if this uh proclivity comes to a physical consummation if they're actually involved in the act uh what is your as a presbyterian pastor uh what is your response to this especially since it seems maybe you know something different it seems most of this is coming out of even what has been identified as conservative presbyterianism yeah it's it's coming primarily out of the pca these days i mean most of the other you know a lot of the other mainline denominations mainline presbyterian church embraced this stuff decades ago uh pca split from the southern church in 73 and um they're going through many of the temptations the mainline did uh but yeah there's a pastor named greg johnson at memorial presbyterian in st louis who identifies himself as a gay christian and he is along with a fellow from southern baptist theological seminary in louisville and some others uh has put together this revoice conference and this this is their identity and it is to be redeemed to christ uh no it's a disordered desire it is is there a difference between being tempted to something and acting on it yes um i i can't legitimately call myself a murderous christian i may be tempted to murder people but that doesn't it's not something that is to be redeemed to christ every time you're on the highway right uh yeah yeah substitute yeah substitute another incest uh this is one of the things we do we there's a video that we made um where a lot of this stuff can be easily accessed it's at www .gaychristian

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.video i debated the pastor of first baptist of salt lake a few years back on this subject and he came out guns blazing he he basically didn't think anyone was going to help me uh for all the pain for all the pain and suffering i was causing people did he actually say that or is that just your your that it might be a little hyperbolic but that was pretty close he he was quoting uh matthew 7 where jesus says you know the day of judgment uh depart from me you know i never knew you uh and applying it to me and he directly or indirectly called me a pharisee several times and so that was his opening statement it came my turn for my opening statement and i said you know let me be clear i'm not here to address you as a self -righteous pharisee i'm here to address you as a fellow sinner who's found freedom and forgiveness in jesus christ amen and we're gonna have to pick it up where you left off because we have to go to our midway break please please be patient folks this is the longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida who airs our program requires of us a break in the middle so that they can air their own public service announcements and other local announcements that localize iron sharpens iron radio geographically to lake city florida so please be patient with us and also write down the information provided by our advertisers we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials while grace life radio airs their local announcements we are global commercials so please respond to them even if it's just to say thanks for sponsoring iron sharpens iron radio and we'll be right back with jason wallace after these messages getting a driver's license running a cash register flipping burgers passing sixth grade do you know what they all have in common they all require training assessments and certifications but do you know what requires no training at all becoming a parent my name is am brewster i'm the president of truth love parents and host of its award -winning podcast i've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what i've discovered is that the majority of christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes that's why truth love parent exists we serve god by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents god called and created them to be we produce free parenting resources trained church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness please visit us at truth love parent dot com this is pastor bill saso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church and franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

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that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill sasa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to jason wallace on the theme today the illegitimacy of christian homosexuals and before i go to any listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered pastor jason you are right in the middle of describing a debate that occurred between you and the first the pastor of first baptist church i think of magna utah uh who uh promotes homosexuality as a legitimate christian activity and uh he was calling into question your very salvation as a result of your opposition to homosexuality and if you could move on and tell us more about that sure it was the pastor of first baptist of salt lake city oh sorry if there's a first baptist church of magna sorry about that no no that's not but uh it's an american baptist congregation so that explains a lot but the american baptist association has collapsed into apostasy although there are faithful pastors and churches in that denomination still that is not a recommended denomination by any stretch of the imagination these days yeah he basically in his opening statement he said he said trust me i'm an expert this is a debate that's been settled long ago it's over it's done with and well he's right about that but it's he's not he's not right about the conclusion on who is correct on the issue it has been settled i think sodom and gomorrah settled it well the the arguments that you would hear from him are the same arguments you hear from a matthew vines or a host of others you know they say that uh the bible doesn't speak to committed loving same -sex relationships uh they say that you know prohibitions in leviticus uh that leviticus also has prohibitions on eating uh shellfish and uh sowing fields with mixed seed or wearing clothes of mixed fibers and if we don't keep those latter ones then we shouldn't worry about the other ones either and you know they spin a story that is meant to elicit sympathy that uh you know god has said it's not good for a man to be forced to be alone and that you know god made them to where um they find their satisfaction only in a person of the same sex and that there's you know we need to take the overriding principle of love no one's being hurt you know they try to portray their critics as mean and harsh and not recognizing the true love of christ when you point them to passages like first corinthians 6 where the apostle paul uh says you know very clearly um he says um know you not that this is verse nine uh first corinthians 6 know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god be not deceived neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of god and such were some of you but you are washed but you are sanctified you're justified in the name of the lord jesus and by the spirit of our god um this is what they call one of the half dozen clobber passages in scripture and they they try to say well clearly in the in the larger context of scripture we need to understand love this is probably abusive this is not talking about monogamy and jesus never said anything about it and if jesus didn't say anything about it can't be really that big a deal and they spin this story that um to people who don't who aren't well grounded in the scriptures it can sound plausible uh and they spin it to elicit a lot of sympathy the when i when i got up to give my opening statement at debate i said you know let me be clear i've had a glimpse into my heart i've never had a glimpse into anyone else's apart from the grace of god i deserve hell as much or more than any homosexual i know that being said all is saying here that these practices indicate your heart has never been changed you've not been born again and you know the the matthew 7 passage that he was the pastor was trying to apply to me actually applies to the people in this list those who think that they can live uh that they can come to christ they can be forgiven and yet live in fornication live in idolatry adultery homosexuality theft covetousness drunkenness christians can fall into sin christian yet we are righteous sinners that we we have been forgiven we are counted perfect uh for christ's sake but we are being sanctified but there is a qualitative difference between someone who has been born again and someone who hasn't you see it in you see it in first corinthians 6 you see it in galatians 5 you see it in in matthew 7 you see it in a host of places in scripture and so you know what i try to do with folks is to answer the questions or the objections that are raised the the idea that this pastor and matthew bines and others have is that the church has been blind all these years and now the scales have been taken from their eyes and they understand that it's all about love now um the uh the verses in scripture even in the new testament that prohibit homosexual activity to my knowledge i can't remember there being any mention of promiscuity it's the very not only act but even the desire the lust for that behavior that is identified as an abomination and is damnable it doesn't even speak about the number of partners involved right right and i mean romans 1 even as they did not like to retain god in their knowledge god gave the number to a reprobate mind this this is a disordered desire this is a judgment from god that it is it is a desire that is contrary the nature is contrary to the created order and god calls it an abomination one of the things that they'll often point to is well god calls eating shellfish an abomination they they don't look at the context you go back to leviticus 18 god says israel as he's taking he's getting ready to take them into the promised land they're not to be like the egyptians and the canaanites the land is about to vomit out canaanites because of their sin their sin was not eating unclean animals their sin was not wearing clothes of mixed fibers this is all ceremonial law there the land is vomiting them out god is destroying them for their violation of the moral law and he tells israel that the land will vomit them out that his judgment will come on them if they do the same things and the things that are enumerated are incest bestiality child sacrifice and homosexuality and you go through leviticus 18 and you see the context eating shellfish is in leviticus 11 it's a totally different context no one is is judged outside of israel for eating shellfish and in the new covenant it's clear that all foods have been made clean by christ yes yes and noah remember the animals go on to the ark in number according to whether they're clean or unclean so that that division between clean and unclean animals was established before the flood and yet after the flood noah is specifically told he can eat anything that moves one of the things you'll hear from these guys is uh you know well israel was forbidden from eating these foods and at the jerusalem council uh it was determined christians are no longer under this this yoke of bondage and that um you know now we are free to do all these things that were forbidden before two problems one is yes you can eat shellfish because that's part of the ceremonial law these boundary markers have gone away but jerusalem council specifically forbids pornea sexual immorality and that was well established what sexual immorality was in the old testament and repeated in the new testament if you're going to legitimize homosexual behavior you have to legitimize bestiality and incest and every other form of sexual perversion that is prohibited in the old testament right one of the things that we try to bring out on our video uh it's free at gay christian dot video just www dot great gay christian dot video one of the things we try to bring out is that often you will have people make a traditional defense of biblical sexuality uh it is a significant thing that god created adam and eve and not like anita bryant said so many years ago adam and steve or adam and jane and june and joe um the the order that god created and declared very good was one man and one woman the um but often in those those traditional presentations it doesn't engage some of the arguments that you'll hear today one of them is well it doesn't specify loving committed relationships monogamous relationships so what we do in the video is we go back to first corinthians 5 there you have a man who's taken his father's life this is incest it is called an abomination in leviticus 18 same chapter as homosexuality and it is given the death sentence in leviticus 20 the same chapter that gives the death sentence in terms of criminal penalties in israel uh as homosexuality received and so here you have a a what appears to be a loving committed monogamous relationship between his between a man and his stepmother and you go through all the various arguments that you typically hear from a matthew vines or someone like this and they say well no one's being hurt are they you know other people may not be attracted to their mother -in -law but this man is and they're happy it isn't that good fruit and you know you go through all the various things in terms of the argumentation and what does paul say cast the evil doer out from among you it is it is uh uh something that even the pagans know is wrong and so the the moral law is still binding uh the law that calls god to judge the canaanites uh you see it repeated through scripture now that we're establishing our own righteousness by any stretch but christ came to to destroy the works of the devil he came not just to save us in our sin but from our sin and if we're living in homosexuality we're not christians so you can call yourself gay you can call yourself a christian it doesn't but you can't be a gay christian uh the choice is like for this man the choice was his his stepmother as his uh wife or christ he couldn't have it both ways what he felt was loving wasn't because god defines love not us uh and even the the waving of the white flag and the surrender of some professedly conservative christians who acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin but they surrender to the fact that that is their lot in life that is what they will always be therefore i'm going to call but i'm even going to identify myself as a gay christian those people are denying the the transforming power of god himself aren't they i mean to give up like that and just to claim that they will forever be this gay christian and on top of that uh the fact that uh they have this constant ongoing struggle with this i understand that there are many probably including you uh christians who believe that you could be genuinely regenerate and on occasion have these temptations and struggles but when someone has an ongoing struggle like that does not that reveal that there is a likelihood that that person is not regenerate i mean do those who have been involved in bestiality have constant struggles uh for the rest of their lives with bestiality temptation their sex does things to our minds i mean it's one of the things we have to deal with here in utah is that child sexual abuse is everywhere uh in the mormon church and so many people they come out of mormonism and they're carrying that baggage with them one fellow i know he he actually came to christ because he had been abused as a boy and it felt you know it established relationships in his head he assumed he was homosexual and he knew it wasn't right uh but it was pleasurable and therefore he assumed that this was uh you know even in spite of the shame there was physical pleasure and therefore he assumed that he must be this way and he found mormonism had no power to change the arms and that's what actually ended up bringing him to christ but praise god yes uh and and different people carry baggage to the day they die uh do we recognize it as sin but uh we you know we can be tempted to all kinds of things that we we should recognize they're sinful can there be some elements of good in our temptation to sin yes you know it uh it should be should we recognize that there is an unrighteous anger and yet there's a righteous anger sure um unrighteous anger doesn't illegitimize righteous anger uh but this is a disordered desire and it's not something that can be reclaimed for christ it needs to be recognized for what it is it's not just a matter that we're all broken people and we're working to to reclaim our brokenness for jesus as far as the the transformation i think that there's been a very superficial view of the new birth that you know it's equated with in a lot of circumstances if you repeat this prayer you're born again are some people born again through that yes but is it automatic that everybody who repeats the words is born again no uh you don't even find the prayer in scripture being born again is something that has to come from god and i don't see a lot of people digging very deep these days well aren't you go ahead i'm sorry they have they have some kind of experience uh but the mormons have their burning in the bosom too how do we compare experiences well god tells us what's legitimate and you know i can tell a mormon i don't know whether your burning bosom was demonic i don't know whether it was self -deception i don't know if it's the mexican food you ate i don't i honestly don't care what i can tell you is god has spoken and that settles everything and god you know i i i tell them god bears you his testimony joseph smith was a false prophet who's leading you and your children to outer darkness forever now what what is the difference between a genuinely converted man a genuinely born again man like you and i who say with frequency we are sinners saved by grace what's the difference between that and somebody saying i am gay and i've been saved by grace what's the difference i think uh dr henry kravindom puts it really well uh i mean he's building on what others have done but i stole it from him so i'll give him credit for it he says we have a threefold problem we have we have a heart of stone ezekiel 36 uh the psalmist calls it a serpent's heart uh so we have we have a heart problem uh the heart of the problem the heart of the problem is the problem of the heart as he would say we have a filthy past we have we have committed sins we have um we have a wreck a bad record as al martin put it uh bad record bad heart and the third problem is we have a poisonous life we're spiritual lepers we and everything we touch becomes unclean true conversion involves an answer to all three problems uh ezekiel 36 we take now that heart of stone gives us a new heart uh he nails our poisonous life to the cross he puts his holy spirit in us i think a lot of the presentations only focus on the second problem in the second solution which is the our unrighteousness and christ righteousness being imputed to us but it's more than just an imputed righteousness it's a new birth it's a new heart it's the indwelling of the holy spirit and people who are living in sin whether it's theft whether it's covetousness or whether it's homosexual behavior uh and they'll try to nitpick the language uh the in the video uh an earnest plea to get christians you know we show paul's language arsenic loy type is directly from the subduagents reading of levicus 18 uh there's no doubt about all this there's a new movie coming out 1946 that basically tries to say that it was the revised standard version that had you know that started christians speaking out against homosexuality and it's a farce it doesn't hold water but in monologue it can sound impressive but the difference between a believer and unbeliever is we've been born again and someone who is living in these sins whether it's first corinthian the litany in first corinthian six or or the litany in first corinthian or in galatians five paul says you will not those who practice those things will not inherit the kingdom of god and in first corinthian six years and such were some of you and james white loves to drive home the point you know the real question is is it were can you repeat that we had another one of those pop -up annoying noises no problem james white i think makes wonderful point you know the question is do we read paul as saying such were past tense some of you or as matthew vines and others try to make it such are some of you ah you know uh we have a question from a listener uh rj in white plains new york and it has to do with that very text uh he said he said i know of fundamentalist pastors who actually agree with the interpretation of liberals on this matter believe it or not but for different reasons they believe that it is impossible for a homosexual to ever repent and come to christ therefore they interpret new testament passages prohibiting this damnable sin as only being prostitutes not those that actually have an enjoyment in the activity when they are converted they say that the reason why they converted is that they were prostitutes only doing this for money not because they actually were homosexual by their inclination and desire what are your comments about those that have a defense for the interpretation that those who come to christ and repent were not really homosexual by inclination but were only prostitutes uh if we can add words to the text we can make it say anything we want to say it never it it says nothing about prostitutes it says nothing you know these are things these are concepts that people are bringing in uh the canaanites were judged not for homosexual prostitutes but for homosexual behavior israel it wasn't just homosexual uh prostitutes and it does deal with that uh you know pro should not bring the price of a dog into the temple um seems to be talking about a male male prostitute the it's any behavior like this romans one paul's not just describing the homosexual prostitutes he's describing all of the pagan gentile world you know that as they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness even if they didn't like to retain god in their knowledge god gave them over to a reprobate mind uh you know the the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another this isn't talking about homosexual prostitution this is just talking about homosexuality but you know that would be that would be the the more of a difficulty for the liberal saying that the prohibitions are against homosexuals but the fundamentalist who has that odd view of basically the homosexuality being the supreme sin of all sins that you can never repent of they would say only the verses that are involving the conversion and repentance of those in act involved in that activity are prostitutes yeah and there's no basis for that right what what's clear is homosexuality was rampant in roman society caesar was called every woman's man and every man's woman uh you know uh the nero uh you know the church has been battling homosexual marriage for a very long time among nero's several wives were two men yes i heard that he had kidnapped a young boy who resembled his late wife and uh somehow whatever they could do surgically back in those days they there was some kind of a sex change operation performed in a primitive way back then and he boy yes spores was his name and there was another one as well um so you know this idea all makes clear in first corinthians 6 such were some of you this is a forgivable sin there's nothing in scripture that says this is an unforgivable sin the same the same litany uh mentions drunkenness are we to believe that no drunk can ever be saved no uh it's not just drunks who are being paid to be drunk it's people who are uh drunks they can be forgiven but if someone who is a professing christian is living in drunkenness paul says don't be deceived your heart hasn't been changed amen born again amen and uh i was put under church discipline myself for habitual unrepentant drunkenness and thank god i was because i might have died in that sin if i wasn't put under church discipline that's the that's what god used to give me a swift kick in the rear end and a smack across the face to uh not literally folks but uh the loving discipline that uh came upon me by my elders who really cared about uh my never -dying soul and my physical life on earth as well uh they put me in a church discipline and i went to a hebron colony in boone north carolina successfully completed the program and have never had one day of desire for alcohol again and i'm not saying that everybody who repents of alcohol abuse has that same experience i don't know why the lord at least at this point in my life has spared me from any temptation towards that again but i thank god him i can thank god for that deliverance from that even that temptation but we have to go to our final break it's going to be brief and uh if you have any other questions folks please send them in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

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we'll be right back with jason wallace don't go away james white of albany mega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

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that's ptl bible rebinding .com every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

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that's liyfc .org linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org the church is one foundation since 2007 anchored in truth ministries has hosted the annual true church conference at grace life church of the souls in mussel shoals alabama this conference began as a training conference for pastors and church leaders who are striving to build true biblically healthy churches conference themes have included church discipline repentance discipleship conversion hyper calvinism the family the doctrine of sin and the pretenders anchored in truth ministries would like to invite you to the 2022 true church conference which will be held from february 17th through the 20th the theme of the conference will be healthy body life in the local church specifically as it pertains to biblical church discipline biblical counseling biblical conflict resolution and protecting the sheep from savage wolves the scheduled speakers for the conference are daryl harrison virgil walker jeff noblet jonathan sims richard caldwell david miller and barry king for more information or to register for the conference please visit anchored in truth .org

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that's anchored in truth .org and click on the true church conference tab at the top of the page hope to see you there why can't we see god how do we know we picked the right bible why do we go to church on sunday parents if your kids have questions about god's word and his creation they would love to read our new reformed magazine called ignited by the word this magazine is packed full of devotionals bible stories church history poems activities and more to encourage you and kids of all ages in their walk with god created by a team of teachers ministers mothers fathers and more we know how important it is to have christian literature in our homes order ignited by the word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org

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learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free welcome back pastor jason we have a listener in eastern suffolk county long island ronald who wants to know how can we maintain a boldness and a firmness in our opposition against the ills in society that are plagued more and more by those that use this sin of homosexuality as a banner of activism and still while doing that and not becoming mamby pamby or seemingly neutral or soft on the issues not appear to be hateful towards these individuals it seems like a very difficult thing to simultaneously do and i admit that i am one of these people that finds it difficult not to appear as being hateful while publicly protesting the way that those that identify as homosexuals are destroying the society i always try to address people as a fellow sinner and i i try to tell them you know i've had a glimpse into my heart i haven't had questions anyone else's i know that apart from the grace of god i would be under the wrath of god justly and that seems to diffuse an awful lot of things the uh the debate that i did with the pastor is online you can see that on our channel uh the earnest plea to gay christians you know i try to we we phrase it the way we did that it's a plea don't be deceived that paul's warning people in first corinthians 6 there are people who are going to go to the day of judgment that say to jesus lord lord have we not prophesied in your name cast out devils and you named them any wonders in your name and he's going to say apart from me uh or i never knew you you were iniquity this is honestly i think what we're seeing is the fallout of watering down and sweetening up the gospel basically not dwelling on the on the holiness of god the seriousness of sin the radical nature of conversion you know we we've we've tried to mass produce it and then we're shocked when people say they've had an experience and they're living like the world no um it it's something that is far deeper diving it's um uh it's it's something that when i look in the mirror i see a center saved by grace alone when i look in the scripture as a mirror and see myself i i i recognize my fallenness and i see the glory of my savior that he didn't die to help good people save themselves he died for me and he died for you know he died to redeem the sodomites of this world and to redeem all of us that he is called and so uh how do we do it i think we have to we have to most of our our a lot of our videos you know we have an earnest plea to uh latter -day saints an earnest plea to roman catholics an earnest plea to gay christians uh you know we're we're trying to address them in respect we're trying to address them uh i i forget the reference offhand um you know where the apostle implores them to be reconciled to god that's that's what that's the balance i see that we're not mamby -pamby that we're warning people you're going to the day of judgment deceived you're trusting that you've been reconciled to christ and clearly you don't have the holy spirit indwelling you're not wrestling with sin you're wallowing in sin and it's not just the homosexuals it's it's a whole host of others as well uh you know first john chapter 2 by this we know that we know him uh that we keep his commandments and if we say that we know him and we're walking in darkness we're liars the church has to reform and and be clear that much of what has been presented as the gospel isn't the gospel it deals with our bad record but it doesn't deal with our heart it doesn't deal with the indwelling of the holy spirit it's you know we've gotten people to go through some motions and we've told them they're right with god and you know we tell them to ever question that is uh to call god a liar no it's not to call god a liar uh when you realize that going through motions that aren't specifically prescribed in scripture and ignoring a whole bunch of scripture in terms of what faith really is and and it's that we're seeking to be saved from our sins not just be saved from the consequences of our sins but be saved from us i think i think that's how you keep the balance and of course a key thing here is that our own pleasure whether it be physical mental or emotional is not more important than pleasing god and obeying him and there are people throughout history even in today's world in places like sudan who have given their lives for their faith and so to ask someone that they or tell someone i should say that they must repent of their homosexuality in order to be saved is not some harsh and horrible command just because they will not be enjoying something that they used to enjoy in fact they can count on the fact that that god will give them new delights and pleasures in their new faith so people have to stop clinging on to things as something they will never let go of just because they give them pleasure am i right yeah i phrase it a little differently in that i want to be clear to folks you don't have to clean yourself up to come to christ um you you the only way he saves any of us is in our sins but when you come to christ you come to be saved from your sin yes you come to be uh transformed you come to be united with him he you recognize that he is your life there is no life outside of him and you know there's no life there's no light apart from him and he divides us and yes he does have far better for us yes i did not mean to insinuate that i believe people become regenerate by their cleaning up their life i didn't mean that in any way i i understood i was just saying to be a little clearer this is a forgivable sin but it is somewhat unique in that in romans one it is given as a judgment and i think i think to a great extent honestly the reason we're seeing this sweep our nation is that the church has refused to give glory to god we we we have water thing you know we've we've created a cotton candy christianity that waters it down sweetens it up to try to make it popular and popularity and faithfulness very seldom go together and we're out of time brother we're out of time and what is the website once again for the documentary that you created on this issue www .gaychristian

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.video and of course judging from what you have said on this and other interviews you are not legitimizing the use of the phrase gay christian no in fact at the end we very clearly say you have a choice you have to christ or your homosexuality you can't have it both ways amen and your church website is gospel utah .org