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February 4, 2022
JASON WALLACE, pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah (OPC), & producer of LDS.Video who will discuss:
“The ILLEGITIMACY of HOMOSEXUAL CHRISTIANS”
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and those who are listening internationally over the internet at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of February 2022.
And as long as I have been alive, for most of my nearly 60 years of existence, those who identified themselves as homosexuals were either vehemently anti-Christian, perhaps even atheist, and the other category would be those in mainline liberal Protestant denominations who are apostate and redefine what the scriptures teach about homosexuality, denying that it is a sin, in fact, even applauding it as something to be celebrated.
But there has been a phenomenon in recent years where homosexuals, those that are professing to be active homosexuals, are also identifying, in some cases, as evangelical Christians, as those who actually believe that the scriptures are God-breathed.
And we are going to be addressing the issue of so-called homosexual Christians today with someone who has done a lot of biblical research on this issue, has produced videos on this issue, and his name is Jason Wallace, a dear friend of mine, pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, which is a congregation in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.
He is also the producer of LDS Video, which features videos critiquing and exposing the Mormon faith for the false and damnable doctrines they believe and teach, and as well as many other issues facing the body of Christ.
Today we are going to be specifically addressing the theme The Illegitimacy of Homosexual Christians, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Jason Wallace. Chris, always a pleasure to be with you.
Yes, indeed. Tell our listeners about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah.
We're a congregation, 24th anniversary, sister congregation in Clearfield, and we have a mission work down in Cedar City.
Yeah, are those two recent developments? Sister Church has been around for a little while,.
In Magna 11, and then we had some folks reach out to us down in Southern Utah. Then after going from Clearfield to Magna, then I drive 250 more miles south to Cedar City and preach down there.
If anybody wants more information about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, go to gospelutah .org, gospelutah .org, and hopefully I will remember to repeat that information later on in the program.
So, Pastor Wallace, would you agree, or is your experience the same as mine, as far as your understanding of the homosexual reaction to Christianity over the years? As I was saying earlier, for most of my life, when I was old enough to even know what a homosexual was, they were either anti-Christian.
In fact, I can remember a day and age when most homosexual activists that were in public, guests on talk shows and things, they were even opposed to the idea of marriage. They did not see a need to adopt a Christian or religious celebration to justify their activity.
And now, of course, you have multitudes of homosexual activists and average citizens who are involved in that practice, and even just liberals who support that activity, who are celebrating the fact that, tragically, all across the world, in many countries, including the United States, homosexual marriage has been legalized.
But the Christian identity of those involved in the damnable sin of homosexuality, if there was an identity as a Christian, it was really solely in the realm of mainline liberal and apostate churches.
Obviously, they would never identify themselves as apostate. But those that had abandoned the inerrancy of the Scriptures long ago, those that even have clergy that deny the deity of Christ and other pillars of the Christian faith, but now we have professing evangelicals.
And even in that realm, you have two categories. You have those that are even pastors and seminary professors and power church organization leaders who will say that homosexuality is indeed a sin, but they themselves will still identify as celibate or chaste gay Christians.
And then you have on the other side of the evangelical or professed evangelical realm those involved in homosexual activity who say that there is nothing sinful about monogamous homosexual relationships in marriage.
So, would you say that your knowledge of what the reaction or response to Christianity has been by the homosexual community, if you want to use the liberal phrase, we know that that is an improper use of the English language.
But those that identify as homosexual, would you say that that is pretty much what you have recognized over the years, the shift from either atheist, anti-Christian, or liberal to a professed identity with evangelicalism?
Oh, most definitely. I mean, honestly, what I think we're seeing to some extent is how the mainline got to the German higher criticism and things like this eroded. But to a great extent, it was people just trying to be popular.
They didn't want to offend people. It's the same argumentation being made by many evangelicals today. We just want to love. We want to reflect. Yes, I know. The God hates fags group. Westboro Baptist Church.
Westboro Baptist. It was on the tip of my tongue. There were people who were looking to embrace. It's been going on. But now it's kind of the...
Oh, yeah, that's just annoying pop-ups on the computer. I have not yet figured out how to silence that.
No problem. Just wanted to make sure that I haven't lost you there. The church used to...
I never would have guessed that. Oh, yeah. And Magna is near Salt Lake, and is it near Provo? It's about 45 miles north. Yeah, because today, Salt Lake is more clearly identified as a cosmopolitan kind of an area where you might expect more homosexuals to be active.
But Provo is obviously a lot more conservative. But the Mormon cult, the Mormon religion... Excuse me?
Not as much as you would think. Oh, really? Before COVID hit, we moved prohibitions on same-sex... Even for faculty? It was the honor code for everyone. Wow. After having talked to the...
Doing all the things that... Obviously, you're referring to in a romantic fashion, because even we who are brothers in Christ, perhaps not so much from Calvinist backgrounds, but men do hug men and women do hug women, but in a brotherly and sisterly fashion.
But I have heard... Well, you just alluded to it about Brigham Young University, but I have heard that even the Mormon cult, the Mormon religion, is starting to backtrack and reverse official positions on homosexuality.
Is that true? To a great extent.
They're trying to keep everybody happy. When they had two girls kissing in front of the Brigham Young statue at BYU, they quickly did a press release. They really hadn't changed it. And then that led to protests.
COVID came and sort of bailed them out. And they never... I never heard clarification on what they exactly... They got it passed. Gave the Utah Pride. And they started working. But then they... But they...
They... Nation in housing or employment, orientation or identity. And then two... Mormon foot forward came out. The Mormon church was... They did not oppose it. And as more and more information came out, basically they helped draft it to make a law prohibiting gay conversion therapy to be given by state license.
Now, that is a broad term I believe you probably are aware of. Gay conversion therapy can mean almost anything. It could include things that even Christians would disagree with. Because we believe that transformation of a lost sinner, even one involved in the unnatural and abominable and damnable sin of homosexuality, comes through the gospel.
Comes through repentance that is given through the activity of the Holy Spirit in someone's life. And there are... I mean, I've heard about... You never know how much accuracy you're receiving from the media these days or perhaps in any era of the media's existence.
But I've heard of so-called gay conversion therapies that are very strange and involve physical discomfort imposed upon the person in certain ways to, you know, basically punish them for certain thoughts and that kind of thing.
It's things that were really weird. Let's face it. So, you're not talking about an opposition to... You are not opposed... Or should I say, you are not in favor, is a better word of saying it. You're not in favor of everything that calls itself gay conversion therapy.
Far from it.
I mean, I think that, you know, the behavioral modification... Right. ...and telling them, you know, that the teenager is not an unusual and that putting the wrong body is not... What's the name of the band?
I'm sorry? What is the name of the band? Imagine Dragons. Okay. And so they did a democratic nominee...
So, it is not yet quite clear whether the actual official dogma, if you will, teaching of Mormonism is accepting homosexual behavior. It's kind of... Would you say that this is just the position of many individuals and even institutions like BYU, but not official, inerrant dogma, if you will?
I don't know if they call it dogma, but teaching that is, you know, from the apostles that they believe still exists and so on. Well, they...
From God. They were not to baptize sexual parents.
Well, as the church lady used to say, how convenient! They have always had convenient revelations, haven't they? Going back to polygamy and then to their abolishment of segregation and the inclusion of blacks into the priesthood and into the choir and all those realms where they were previously banned.
And they seem to have convenient revelations from God when either popular opinion or the law are breathing down their neck.
Now, I know this is not the topic of our discussion today.
I also know you're not a prophet, nor do you pretend to be one. But from what you know about Mormonism and being in an area where you are surrounded by Mormons, I'm assuming Christianity is a minority where you are.
Very much. Do you have any instinctive views and opinions as to whether... being educated, of course, from being in the area where you live and where you conduct ministry, do you have any views on whether or not the Mormon cult will continue to split?
I mean, it's already gone through many splits over the last century and a half. But do you see a more major split in the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the horizon? Or are these things?
I don't... Really? Mormons do tend to have unusual names. Not all of them, but many of them do.
Yeah, before you join the Mormons. But... Okay. He's an attorney from God. He seemed to call the stir, but I don't see anybody from within the general authorities. So, I mean, most of these guys, they're not...
You know, he's 94. And it's just the whole system, you know, a big chunk. There are little groups that, honestly, with the rise of the Internet, so many various things. Utah is more and more... When girls are kissing in front of Brigham Young's statue at BYU, I don't think that they have many concerns.
To me, it seems like it's going to go the way of what used to be called the... Right. They're now called the communities of Christ.
And, you know, they... They openly support homosexual activity, correct? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, they've been... So, you know, they basically affirm everyone and what they want to do. And I think Mormonism seems to be...
So the hardcore conservatives in that cult are likely going to behave, in your opinion, in your educated opinion, like the multitudes of politically conservative and socially and morally conservative individuals who remain Roman Catholic, even though their pope is a Marxist and the most left-leaning pope in the history of their religion.
And even beyond that, you have many people who are politically, socially, and morally conservative that just because they may have been raised in the United Methodist Church or the PCUSA or whatever liberal and even apostate denomination they may be a part of, they are just remaining in membership there because there is a likelihood they're not even regenerate, they're just conservative.
So you're saying that... Am I correct that that's probably a parallel?
Yeah. I mean, the heart of Mormonism... If you watch... The inner thoughts of... Watch the movie Singles Ward. You've got a guy that his wife leaves him. He ends up going back to the singles ward. He's somewhat embittered with a stand-up comic he's made.
A lot of things that Mormons... At the end of the movie, he finds love and happiness. By just shutting up, you know, it has the priest sort of... You can grumble, but... Now, when we come back,.
I don't want to belabor the issue because that's not the focus of our attention today where it's not supposed to be. But I do want to ask you about the exodus of conservative Mormons from that cult, those that agree with biblical morality and so on.
And we'll continue with the main theme of the illegitimacy of homosexual Christians. When we come back, if you have questions for Pastor Jason Wallace on this issue, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
And I could easily understand an issue like homosexuality evoking questions that are personal and private. They may involve the very people that are asking the questions. They may involve their spouses, their children, something that would compel them to remain anonymous.
We completely understand that. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. We'll be right back with Jason Wallace after these messages from our sponsors.
Since 2007, Anchored in Truth Ministries has hosted the annual True Church Conference at Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama. This conference began as a training conference for pastors and church leaders who are striving to build true, biblically healthy churches.
Conference themes have included church discipline, repentance, discipleship, conversion, hyper-Calvinism, the family, the doctrine of sin, and the pretenders. Anchored in Truth Ministries would like to invite you to the 2022 True Church Conference, which will be held from February 17th through the 20th.
The theme of the conference will be Healthy Body Life in the Local Church, specifically as it pertains to biblical church discipline, biblical counseling, biblical conflict resolution, and protecting the sheep from savage wolves.
The scheduled speakers for the conference are Darrell Harrison, Virgil Walker, Jeff Knoblet, Jonathan Sims, Richard Caldwell, David Miller, and Barry King. For more information or to register for the conference, please visit anchoredintruth .org.
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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today, for the full two hours, is my dear friend of many years, Jason Wallace, Pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, which is a congregation in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
Our topic today is the illegitimacy of homosexual Christians. And our email address, if you have a question, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.
If you're asking a question, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And I want to make it clear to our listeners, I don't know if I did in the first half hour of the program, I want to make it clear that Pastor Jason and I are being firm in our opposition to the sin of homosexuality, not because we hate these individuals, and not because we want to see them destroyed, or that we delight in the fact that unrepentant homosexuals do go to hell for eternity.
We take no joy in that, and the very reason that we're speaking out against it is because we love these people, and we want to see them come to repentance, and we want them to be spared of hell, and we want them to be in eternity with Christ and us, and the only way that an honest Christian who truly loves homosexuals and has an ounce of integrity, the only way that we should respond to people seeking to defend it, especially biblically, is to expose these alleged biblical defenses as lies, just as we would with any other teachings that are false, like the teachings of cults and false religions.
So, I want to make that clear. No matter what you say, there will always be people that think what we are involved in today is hate speech. I have had a number of people in the past contact me after doing similar programs on similar themes who have accused me and my guests of being hateful, including a professed member of a conservative Presbyterian church, because, sadly, and I want to make it clear that I'm not broad-brushing the ministers and members of the Presbyterian church in America, the PCA, but there is an element in that denomination that is strongly affirming the existence of gay Christians, Christians that are homosexual in their inclination and desire, but who remain chaste and celibate.
They think that that is a completely legitimate category of Christian and a completely legitimate category of even men eligible for ordination to elder or deacon, so that is quite a sad development in church history, but now I return to our actual discussion with Jason, and before the break I said I wanted to ask you if there is an exodus of conservatives within the Mormon cult, an exodus out of that cult, because of the seduction of homosexuality.
That this religion, this cult has succumbed to. I'm not seeing much of it, honestly. Really? Yeah, I mean, COVID hasn't met for a full 2020 general conference, so the Mormon, you know, when they did start services, and so some of these tensions that might have spilled over, they may pursue Mormonism.
There was one conservative guy. The what concert? The Love Loud concert. Okay. When push comes to shove, they don't have a high, there's not a major exodus. Is it opening some people's eyes to where there's not a great exodus at this point that I'm seeing?
How about a decline in conversions to Mormonism? Probably. The missionaries aren't really spreading. I'm telling you that probably not a huge, definitely a lot of their conversions to Latin America, maybe 20 of their actual membership is not real active, but just semi-active.
They baptize people, and they never see them again. They pursued it 20 years ago.
Well, going back to our discussion on the illegitimacy of homosexual Christians, we all expect those who deny the inerrancy of Scripture or those that don't even acknowledge that Scripture is from God, we have no difficulty understanding why they would be completely comfortable not only being involved in that damnable and unnatural sin, but promoting it even if that is not their inclination, as being something completely acceptable and not only something to be tolerated, but something to be celebrated.
But I just mentioned before the disturbing phenomenon that has continued to rise even amongst professing Reformed Christians that will say there is a state of being that is acceptable to God where one has an uninterrupted, ongoing inclination towards same-sex attraction for the entirety of their lives, and have even reached the point where they don't even pray for a transformation in regard to this.
They actually identify themselves as being homosexual, likely because they were born that way, and they don't even see any ray of hope that they will ever change. And the only thing redeemable about their position is that they acknowledge homosexuality as a sin, but the sad part is that they very often only acknowledge it as a sin if this proclivity comes to a physical consummation, if they're actually involved in the act.
As a Presbyterian pastor, what is your response to this, especially since it seems, maybe you know something different, it seems most of this is coming out of even what has been identified as conservative Presbyterianism.
Yeah, it's coming PCA split from many of the temptations the mainline did. Yeah, who identifies himself along with fellow Christians and others and is to be redeemed to Christ. It's a disordered difference between being tempted to something and acting on it.
Yes, I call myself a murderous Christian. I may be tempted to murder people.
To be redeemed to Christ. Every time you're on the highway, right?
This is one of the things we do. There's a video that we made at www .gaychristian .video. I debated the pastor of First Baptist of Salt Lake a few years back on this subject. He came out guns blazing.
He basically didn't think anyone was going to help me. All the pain and suffering I was causing people.
Did he actually say that or is that just your...
It might be a little hyperbolic, but that was... He was quoting... He directly... And so it came my turn for my opening statement. Let me be clear. All sinners found freedom and forgiveness in Jesus Christ.
Amen. And we're going to have to pick it up where you left off because we have to go to our midway break.
No problem. Please be patient, folks. This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs our program, requires of us a longer break in the middle so that they can air their own public service announcements and other local announcements that localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida.
So please be patient with us and also write down the information provided by our advertisers. We simultaneously air our globally heard commercials while Grace Life Radio airs their local announcements.
We air our global commercials, so please respond to them, even if it's just to say thanks for sponsoring Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we'll be right back with Jason Wallace after these messages.
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This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign Lord God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.
Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Arn Sharpen's Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the Internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise. And yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the Body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Arn Sharpen's Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.
Conference themes have included Church Discipline, Repentance, Discipleship, Conversion, Hyper-Calvinism, The Family, The Doctrine of Sin, and The Pretenders. Anchored in Truth Ministries would like to invite you to the 2022 True Church Conference which will be held from February 17th through the 20th.
The theme of the conference will be Healthy Body Life in the Local Church, specifically as it pertains to Biblical Church Discipline, Biblical Counseling, Biblical Conflict Resolution, and Protecting the Sheep from Savage Wolves.
The scheduled speakers for the conference are Darrell Harrison, Virgil Walker, Jeff Knoblett, Jonathan Sims, Richard Caldwell, David Miller, and Barry King. For more information or to register for the conference, please visit anchoredintruth .org.
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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations. The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in spirit and truth.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God-centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of Biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture.
To advance the cause of the Gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible. This 17th century hand-engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org. Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
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And before I go to any listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered, Pastor Jason, you are right in the middle of describing a debate that occurred between you and the pastor of First Baptist Church, I think of Magna, Utah, who promotes homosexuality as a legitimate Christian activity.
And he was calling into question your very salvation as a result of your opposition to homosexuality, and if you could move on and tell us more about that.
Sure. It was the pastor of Purdy.
Oh, sorry if there's a First Baptist Church of Magna. Sorry about that.
No, no, there's not. But it's an American Baptist congregation.
That explains a lot. The American Baptist Association has collapsed into apostasy, although there are faithful pastors and churches in that denomination still. That is not a recommended denomination by any stretch of the imagination these days.
Yeah, he... Well, he's right about that, but he's not right about the conclusion on who is correct on the issue. It has been settled. I think Sodom and Gomorrah settled it. Well,.
The arguments that you would hear from him are the same arguments you hear. They say that the Bible doesn't make flatter ones, and we shouldn't worry about the other ones either. Yeah, they spin stories of sympathy that made them...
They try to portray their critics as mean and harsh and not recognizing the truth. You point them to...
The verses in scripture, even in the New Testament, that prohibit homosexual activity, to my knowledge, I can't remember there being any mention of promiscuity. It's the very, not only act, but even the desire, the lust for that behavior that is identified as an abomination and is damnable.
It doesn't even speak about the number of partners involved, right?
Right. I mean, Romans 1, even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind. This is a disordered desire, a judgment for a desire that is contrary to nature, is contrary to the created order, and God calls it an abomination.
One of the things, not to be like the Egyptians and the Canaanites, the land was not, this is all ceremonial law that will come on them, and the things that are enumerated, eating shellfish is an abomination.
And in the New Covenant, it's clear that all foods have been made clean by Christ. Yes. Yes. Now we are free. If you're going to legitimize homosexual behavior, you have to legitimize bestiality and incest and every other form of sexual perversion that is prohibited in the Old Testament.
Right. One of the things that we try to bring out in our video, it's free at GayChristian .video. One of the things we try to bring out is you will have people make a traditional, significant thing like Anita Bryant and Steve.
It doesn't engage some of the arguments that you'll, it doesn't, in committed relations. You have a man who's taken his father's wife, same chapter as homosexuality, and it is given the death sentence in Leviticus 20, the same penalties in Israel as homosexuality.
And so here you have what appears to be a loving, committed, monogamous relation between a man and his wife. You go through all the various arguments that you typically hear from a man. Other people may not be attracted to them.
It isn't that good fruit. And you know, you go through all the various, the moral law is that the law that repeated through by any stretch to save us in our sin, but living in homosexuality, you can call yourself gay.
You can call yourself, can't be a gay.
And even the waving of the white flag and the surrender of some professedly conservative Christians who acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin, but they surrender to the fact that that is their lot in life.
That is what they will always be. Therefore I'm going to call, I'm even going to identify myself as a gay Christian. Those people are denying the transforming power of God himself, aren't they? I mean, to give up like that and just to claim that they will forever be this gay Christian.
And on top of that, the fact that they have this constant, ongoing struggle with this. I understand that there are many, probably including you, Christians who believe that you can be genuinely regenerate and on occasion have these temptations and struggles.
But when someone has an ongoing struggle like that, does not that reveal that there is a likelihood that that person is not regenerate? I mean, do those who have been involved in bestiality have constant struggles for the rest of their lives with bestiality temptation?
They're claiming to Christ, but any found Mormon doesn't claim to Christ. Praise God. Yes. We recognize there's, can there be some elements of good in our temptation to sin? Yes. You know, we recognize that righteous anger doesn't illegitimize righteous desire.
And it's not something that can be reclaimed for Christ. It needs to be recognized for what it is. It's not just a matter that we're all broken people and we're working to reclaim our brokenness for Jesus.
As far as the proficial view of the new birth, equated with, if you repeat this prayer, some people born again through that, yes. Again, no. It's very deep. Well, aren't... Go ahead. I'm sorry. They have some kind of experience, but the Mormons have their burning in the bosom.
Well, God tells them. I can tell a Mormon he's demonic. I don't... I honestly don't care. What I can tell you is, and that settles everything, and God, you know, I tell them, God bears you his testimony.
Joseph Smith was a false prophet who's leading you and your children to outer darkness forever.
Now, what is the difference between a genuinely converted man, a genuinely born-again man like you and I, who say, with frequency, we are sinners saved by grace? What's the difference between that and somebody saying, I am gay and I've been saved by grace?
What's the difference?
I think that we show...
Can you repeat that? We had another one of those pop-up annoying noises.
No problem. James White, I think, Paul was saying...
You know, we have a question from a listener, R .J. in White Plains, New York, and it has to do with that very text. He said, I know of fundamentalist pastors who actually agree with the interpretation of liberals on this matter, believe it or not, but for different reasons.
They believe that it is impossible for a homosexual to ever repent and come to Christ, therefore they interpret New Testament passages prohibiting this damnable sin as only being prostitutes, not those that actually have an enjoyment in the activity.
When they are converted, they say that the reason why they converted is that they were prostitutes only doing this for money, not because they actually were homosexual by their inclination and desire.
What are your comments about those that have a defense for the interpretation that those who come to Christ and repent were not really homosexual by inclination, but were only prostitutes?
We can say anything we want to say. Yeah, right. It says nothing about prostitutes. It says nothing. You know, these are things, these are concepts that people are bringing in for homosexuals. It wasn't just homosexuals.
It does deal with that. It's any behavior. Paul's not just describing all of the pagan Gentile world. They're suppressing the truth, even if they didn't like to retain God and their knowledge God gave them over to a ruffian.
That would be more of a difficulty for the liberal saying that the prohibitions are against homosexuals, but the fundamentalist who has that odd view of basically the homosexuality being the supreme sin of all sins that you can never repent of, they would say only the verses that are involving the conversion and repentance of those involved in that activity are prostitutes.
Yeah, and there's no basis for that in the text. Right. What's clear is...
Yes, I heard that he had kidnapped a young boy who resembled his late wife, and somehow whatever they could do surgically back in those days, there was some kind of a sex change operation performed in a primitive way back then, and he married that boy.
Yes, of course. There's nothing in Scripture... Amen, and I was put under church discipline myself for habitual unrepentant drunkenness, and thank God I was, because I might have died in that sin if I wasn't put under church discipline.
That's what God used to give me a swift kick in the rear end and a smack across the face to, not literally, folks, but the loving discipline that came upon me by my elders who really cared about my never-dying soul and my physical life on earth as well.
They put me under church discipline, and I went to Hebron Colony in Boone, North Carolina, successfully completed the program there, and have never had one day of desire for alcohol again, and I'm not saying that everybody who repents of alcohol abuse has that same experience.
I don't know why the Lord, at least at this point in my life, has spared me from any temptation towards that again, but I thank God for that deliverance from that, even that temptation. But we have to go to our final break.
It's going to be brief. And if you have any other questions, folks, please send them in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Jason Wallace.
Don't go away.
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Welcome back, Pastor Jason. We have a listener in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, Ronald, who wants to know, how can we maintain a boldness and a firmness in our opposition against the ills in society that are plagued more and more by those that use this sin of homosexuality as a banner of activism and still, while doing that and not becoming mamby-pamby or seemingly neutral or soft on the issues, not appear to be hateful towards these individuals?
It seems like a very difficult thing to simultaneously do, and I admit that I am one of these people that finds it difficult not to appear as being hateful while publicly protesting the way that those that identify as homosexuals are destroying the society.
Well, that rubs into my heart, I have on our channel, the way we did, that it's stated, Jesus, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out devils in your name, done many wonders in your name, and he's going to say, I think, basically, not dwelling on the seriousness of sin, the radical nature, you know, we've tried to mass-produce it, and then we're shocked when people say they've had an experience.
No, it's something that is far deeper diving, something that, when I look in the mirror, recognize my fallenness, and I see the glory of my savior, that he didn't die to help good people save them, he died for me, and he died to redeem all that he has called.
I think we have to, most of our, a lot of our videos, you know, we're trying to address them in respect, which implores them to be reconciled. That's not mamby-pamby. Deceive. You're trusting that you've been reconciled to Christ, and clearly you don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling.
You're not wrestling with sin, you're wallowing in sin. And it's not just homophobia. We say that we know him, and we're walking in darkness. We're liars. Much of what deals with our bad will be indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
And, you know, we tell them to ever question that, is to call God a liar. Through motions that aren't specifically prescribed in Scripture, and ignoring, seeking to be saved, Amen.
And, of course, a key thing here is that our own pleasure, whether it be physical, mental, or emotional, is not more important than pleasing God and obeying him. And there are people throughout history, even in today's world in places like Sudan, who have given their lives for their faith.
And so to ask someone that they, or tell someone, I should say, that they must repent of their homosexuality in order to be saved is not some harsh and horrible command, just because they will not be enjoying something that they used to enjoy.
In fact, they can count on the fact that God will give them new delights and pleasures in their new faith. So people have to stop clinging on to things as something they will never let go of just because they give them pleasure.
Am I right?
Yeah, I praise it a little different. You don't have to clean yourself up to come to Christ. But when you come to Christ, you come to your sin. You come to be united with him. You recognize that he is your life.
There's no life, there's no light apart from him. And yes, he does have far better for us.
Yes, I did not mean to insinuate that I believe people become regenerate by their cleaning up their life. I didn't mean that in any way.
I understood. I was just saying, to be a little clearer, this is a forgivable sin, but it is somewhat unique in that in Romans 1 it is given as a judgment. And I think to a great extent, honestly, the reason we're seeing this sweep our nation is that the church has refused to give cotton candy Christianity.
It waters it down, sweetens it up. Popularity and faithfulness very seldom go together.
And we're out of time, brother. We're out of time. And what is the website, once again, for the documentary that you created on this issue?
Www .gaychristian .video.
And, of course, judging from what you have said on this and other interviews, you are not legitimizing the use of the phrase gay Christian.
No, in fact, at the end, we have a big comment.
And your church website is gospelutah .org www .gospelutah .org. Thanks so much for being a guest again. With little notice, Pastor Jason Wallace, thank you for listening, everybody, especially those who took the time to write.
I hope you have a safe and happy and Christ-honoring weekend and Lord's Day. And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.