February 4, 2022 Show with Jason Wallace on “The Illegitimacy of Homosexual Christians”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and those who are listening internationally over the internet at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth day of February 2022.

The Rise of Professing Homosexual Christians

And as long as I have been alive, for most of my nearly 60 years of existence, those who identified themselves as homosexuals were either vehemently anti-Christian, perhaps even atheist, and the other category would be those in mainline liberal Protestant denominations who are apostate and redefine what the scriptures teach about homosexuality, denying that it is a sin, in fact, even applauding it as something to be celebrated.

But there has been a phenomenon in recent years where homosexuals, those that are professing to be active homosexuals, are also identifying, in some cases, as evangelical Christians, as those who actually believe that the scriptures are God-breathed.

And we are going to be addressing the issue of so-called homosexual Christians today with someone who has done a lot of biblical research on this issue, has produced videos on this issue, and his name is Jason Wallace, a dear friend of mine, pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, which is a congregation in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.

He is also the producer of LDS Video, which features videos critiquing and exposing the Mormon faith for the false and damnable doctrines they believe and teach, and as well as many other issues facing the body of Christ.

Today we are going to be specifically addressing the theme The Illegitimacy of Homosexual Christians, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Jason Wallace. Chris, always a pleasure to be with you.

Yes, indeed. Tell our listeners about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah.

We're a congregation, 24th anniversary, sister congregation in Clearfield, and we have a mission work down in Cedar City.

Yeah, are those two recent developments? Sister Church has been around for a little while,.

In Magna 11, and then we had some folks reach out to us down in Southern Utah. Then after going from Clearfield to Magna, then I drive 250 more miles south to Cedar City and preach down there.

If anybody wants more information about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, go to gospelutah .org, gospelutah .org, and hopefully I will remember to repeat that information later on in the program.

From Liberal Anti-Christianity to Evangelical Identity

So, Pastor Wallace, would you agree, or is your experience the same as mine, as far as your understanding of the homosexual reaction to Christianity over the years? As I was saying earlier, for most of my life, when I was old enough to even know what a homosexual was, they were either anti-Christian.

In fact, I can remember a day and age when most homosexual activists that were in public, guests on talk shows and things, they were even opposed to the idea of marriage. They did not see a need to adopt a Christian or religious celebration to justify their activity.

And now, of course, you have multitudes of homosexual activists and average citizens who are involved in that practice, and even just liberals who support that activity, who are celebrating the fact that, tragically, all across the world, in many countries, including the United States, homosexual marriage has been legalized.

But the Christian identity of those involved in the damnable sin of homosexuality, if there was an identity as a Christian, it was really solely in the realm of mainline liberal and apostate churches.

Obviously, they would never identify themselves as apostate. But those that had abandoned the inerrancy of the Scriptures long ago, those that even have clergy that deny the deity of Christ and other pillars of the Christian faith, but now we have professing evangelicals.

And even in that realm, you have two categories. You have those that are even pastors and seminary professors and power church organization leaders who will say that homosexuality is indeed a sin, but they themselves will still identify as celibate or chaste gay Christians.

And then you have on the other side of the evangelical or professed evangelical realm those involved in homosexual activity who say that there is nothing sinful about monogamous homosexual relationships in marriage.

So, would you say that your knowledge of what the reaction or response to Christianity has been by the homosexual community, if you want to use the liberal phrase, we know that that is an improper use of the English language.

But those that identify as homosexual, would you say that that is pretty much what you have recognized over the years, the shift from either atheist, anti-Christian, or liberal to a professed identity with evangelicalism?

Oh, most definitely. I mean, honestly, what I think we're seeing to some extent is how the mainline got to the German higher criticism and things like this eroded. But to a great extent, it was people just trying to be popular.

They didn't want to offend people. It's the same argumentation being made by many evangelicals today. We just want to love. We want to reflect. Yes, I know. The God hates fags group. Westboro Baptist Church.

Westboro Baptist. It was on the tip of my tongue. There were people who were looking to embrace. It's been going on. But now it's kind of the...

Oh, yeah, that's just annoying pop-ups on the computer. I have not yet figured out how to silence that.

No problem. Just wanted to make sure that I haven't lost you there. The church used to...

I never would have guessed that. Oh, yeah. And Magna is near Salt Lake, and is it near Provo? It's about 45 miles north. Yeah, because today, Salt Lake is more clearly identified as a cosmopolitan kind of an area where you might expect more homosexuals to be active.

But Provo is obviously a lot more conservative. But the Mormon cult, the Mormon religion... Excuse me?

Not as much as you would think. Oh, really? Before COVID hit, we moved prohibitions on same-sex... Even for faculty? It was the honor code for everyone. Wow. After having talked to the...

Doing all the things that... Obviously, you're referring to in a romantic fashion, because even we who are brothers in Christ, perhaps not so much from Calvinist backgrounds, but men do hug men and women do hug women, but in a brotherly and sisterly fashion.

But I have heard... Well, you just alluded to it about Brigham Young University, but I have heard that even the Mormon cult, the Mormon religion, is starting to backtrack and reverse official positions on homosexuality.

Is that true? To a great extent.

They're trying to keep everybody happy. When they had two girls kissing in front of the Brigham Young statue at BYU, they quickly did a press release. They really hadn't changed it. And then that led to protests.

COVID came and sort of bailed them out. And they never... I never heard clarification on what they exactly... They got it passed. Gave the Utah Pride. And they started working. But then they... But they...

They... Nation in housing or employment, orientation or identity. And then two... Mormon foot forward came out. The Mormon church was... They did not oppose it. And as more and more information came out, basically they helped draft it to make a law prohibiting gay conversion therapy to be given by state license.

Now, that is a broad term I believe you probably are aware of. Gay conversion therapy can mean almost anything. It could include things that even Christians would disagree with. Because we believe that transformation of a lost sinner, even one involved in the unnatural and abominable and damnable sin of homosexuality, comes through the gospel.

Comes through repentance that is given through the activity of the Holy Spirit in someone's life. And there are... I mean, I've heard about... You never know how much accuracy you're receiving from the media these days or perhaps in any era of the media's existence.

But I've heard of so-called gay conversion therapies that are very strange and involve physical discomfort imposed upon the person in certain ways to, you know, basically punish them for certain thoughts and that kind of thing.

It's things that were really weird. Let's face it. So, you're not talking about an opposition to... You are not opposed... Or should I say, you are not in favor, is a better word of saying it. You're not in favor of everything that calls itself gay conversion therapy.

Far from it.

I mean, I think that, you know, the behavioral modification... Right. ...and telling them, you know, that the teenager is not an unusual and that putting the wrong body is not... What's the name of the band?

I'm sorry? What is the name of the band? Imagine Dragons. Okay. And so they did a democratic nominee...

So, it is not yet quite clear whether the actual official dogma, if you will, teaching of Mormonism is accepting homosexual behavior. It's kind of... Would you say that this is just the position of many individuals and even institutions like BYU, but not official, inerrant dogma, if you will?

I don't know if they call it dogma, but teaching that is, you know, from the apostles that they believe still exists and so on. Well, they...

From God. They were not to baptize sexual parents.

Well, as the church lady used to say, how convenient! They have always had convenient revelations, haven't they? Going back to polygamy and then to their abolishment of segregation and the inclusion of blacks into the priesthood and into the choir and all those realms where they were previously banned.

And they seem to have convenient revelations from God when either popular opinion or the law are breathing down their neck.

Now, I know this is not the topic of our discussion today.

I also know you're not a prophet, nor do you pretend to be one. But from what you know about Mormonism and being in an area where you are surrounded by Mormons, I'm assuming Christianity is a minority where you are.

Very much. Do you have any instinctive views and opinions as to whether... being educated, of course, from being in the area where you live and where you conduct ministry, do you have any views on whether or not the Mormon cult will continue to split?

I mean, it's already gone through many splits over the last century and a half. But do you see a more major split in the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the horizon? Or are these things?

I don't... Really? Mormons do tend to have unusual names. Not all of them, but many of them do.

Yeah, before you join the Mormons. But... Okay. He's an attorney from God. He seemed to call the stir, but I don't see anybody from within the general authorities. So, I mean, most of these guys, they're not...

You know, he's 94. And it's just the whole system, you know, a big chunk. There are little groups that, honestly, with the rise of the Internet, so many various things. Utah is more and more... When girls are kissing in front of Brigham Young's statue at BYU, I don't think that they have many concerns.

To me, it seems like it's going to go the way of what used to be called the... Right. They're now called the communities of Christ.

And, you know, they... They openly support homosexual activity, correct? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, they've been... So, you know, they basically affirm everyone and what they want to do. And I think Mormonism seems to be...

So the hardcore conservatives in that cult are likely going to behave, in your opinion, in your educated opinion, like the multitudes of politically conservative and socially and morally conservative individuals who remain Roman Catholic, even though their pope is a Marxist and the most left-leaning pope in the history of their religion.

And even beyond that, you have many people who are politically, socially, and morally conservative that just because they may have been raised in the United Methodist Church or the PCUSA or whatever liberal and even apostate denomination they may be a part of, they are just remaining in membership there because there is a likelihood they're not even regenerate, they're just conservative.

So you're saying that... Am I correct that that's probably a parallel?

Yeah. I mean, the heart of Mormonism... If you watch... The inner thoughts of... Watch the movie Singles Ward. You've got a guy that his wife leaves him. He ends up going back to the singles ward. He's somewhat embittered with a stand-up comic he's made.

A lot of things that Mormons... At the end of the movie, he finds love and happiness. By just shutting up, you know, it has the priest sort of... You can grumble, but... Now, when we come back,.

I don't want to belabor the issue because that's not the focus of our attention today where it's not supposed to be. But I do want to ask you about the exodus of conservative Mormons from that cult, those that agree with biblical morality and so on.

And we'll continue with the main theme of the illegitimacy of homosexual Christians. When we come back, if you have questions for Pastor Jason Wallace on this issue, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I could easily understand an issue like homosexuality evoking questions that are personal and private. They may involve the very people that are asking the questions. They may involve their spouses, their children, something that would compel them to remain anonymous.

We completely understand that. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. We'll be right back with Jason Wallace after these messages from our sponsors.

Since 2007, Anchored in Truth Ministries has hosted the annual True Church Conference at Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama. This conference began as a training conference for pastors and church leaders who are striving to build true, biblically healthy churches.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today, for the full two hours, is my dear friend of many years, Jason Wallace, Pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, which is a congregation in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Our topic today is the illegitimacy of homosexual Christians. And our email address, if you have a question, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

If you're asking a question, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And I want to make it clear to our listeners, I don't know if I did in the first half hour of the program, I want to make it clear that Pastor Jason and I are being firm in our opposition to the sin of homosexuality, not because we hate these individuals, and not because we want to see them destroyed, or that we delight in the fact that unrepentant homosexuals do go to hell for eternity.

We take no joy in that, and the very reason that we're speaking out against it is because we love these people, and we want to see them come to repentance, and we want them to be spared of hell, and we want them to be in eternity with Christ and us, and the only way that an honest Christian who truly loves homosexuals and has an ounce of integrity, the only way that we should respond to people seeking to defend it, especially biblically, is to expose these alleged biblical defenses as lies, just as we would with any other teachings that are false, like the teachings of cults and false religions.

So, I want to make that clear. No matter what you say, there will always be people that think what we are involved in today is hate speech. I have had a number of people in the past contact me after doing similar programs on similar themes who have accused me and my guests of being hateful, including a professed member of a conservative Presbyterian church, because, sadly, and I want to make it clear that I'm not broad-brushing the ministers and members of the Presbyterian church in America, the PCA, but there is an element in that denomination that is strongly affirming the existence of gay Christians, Christians that are homosexual in their inclination and desire, but who remain chaste and celibate.

They think that that is a completely legitimate category of Christian and a completely legitimate category of even men eligible for ordination to elder or deacon, so that is quite a sad development in church history, but now I return to our actual discussion with Jason, and before the break I said I wanted to ask you if there is an exodus of conservatives within the Mormon cult, an exodus out of that cult, because of the seduction of homosexuality.

That this religion, this cult has succumbed to. I'm not seeing much of it, honestly. Really? Yeah, I mean, COVID hasn't met for a full 2020 general conference, so the Mormon, you know, when they did start services, and so some of these tensions that might have spilled over, they may pursue Mormonism.

There was one conservative guy. The what concert? The Love Loud concert. Okay. When push comes to shove, they don't have a high, there's not a major exodus. Is it opening some people's eyes to where there's not a great exodus at this point that I'm seeing?

How about a decline in conversions to Mormonism? Probably. The missionaries aren't really spreading. I'm telling you that probably not a huge, definitely a lot of their conversions to Latin America, maybe 20 of their actual membership is not real active, but just semi-active.

They baptize people, and they never see them again. They pursued it 20 years ago.

Well, going back to our discussion on the illegitimacy of homosexual Christians, we all expect those who deny the inerrancy of Scripture or those that don't even acknowledge that Scripture is from God, we have no difficulty understanding why they would be completely comfortable not only being involved in that damnable and unnatural sin, but promoting it even if that is not their inclination, as being something completely acceptable and not only something to be tolerated, but something to be celebrated.

But I just mentioned before the disturbing phenomenon that has continued to rise even amongst professing Reformed Christians that will say there is a state of being that is acceptable to God where one has an uninterrupted, ongoing inclination towards same-sex attraction for the entirety of their lives, and have even reached the point where they don't even pray for a transformation in regard to this.

They actually identify themselves as being homosexual, likely because they were born that way, and they don't even see any ray of hope that they will ever change. And the only thing redeemable about their position is that they acknowledge homosexuality as a sin, but the sad part is that they very often only acknowledge it as a sin if this proclivity comes to a physical consummation, if they're actually involved in the act.

As a Presbyterian pastor, what is your response to this, especially since it seems, maybe you know something different, it seems most of this is coming out of even what has been identified as conservative Presbyterianism.

Yeah, it's coming PCA split from many of the temptations the mainline did. Yeah, who identifies himself along with fellow Christians and others and is to be redeemed to Christ. It's a disordered difference between being tempted to something and acting on it.

Yes, I call myself a murderous Christian. I may be tempted to murder people.

To be redeemed to Christ. Every time you're on the highway, right?

This is one of the things we do. There's a video that we made at www .gaychristian .video. I debated the pastor of First Baptist of Salt Lake a few years back on this subject. He came out guns blazing.

He basically didn't think anyone was going to help me. All the pain and suffering I was causing people.

Did he actually say that or is that just your...

It might be a little hyperbolic, but that was... He was quoting... He directly... And so it came my turn for my opening statement. Let me be clear. All sinners found freedom and forgiveness in Jesus Christ.

Amen. And we're going to have to pick it up where you left off because we have to go to our midway break.

No problem. Please be patient, folks. This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs our program, requires of us a longer break in the middle so that they can air their own public service announcements and other local announcements that localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida.

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Since 2007, Anchored in Truth Ministries has hosted the annual True Church Conference at Grace Life Church of the Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama. This conference began as a training conference for pastors and church leaders who are striving to build true, biblically healthy churches.

Conference themes have included Church Discipline, Repentance, Discipleship, Conversion, Hyper-Calvinism, The Family, The Doctrine of Sin, and The Pretenders. Anchored in Truth Ministries would like to invite you to the 2022 True Church Conference which will be held from February 17th through the 20th.

The theme of the conference will be Healthy Body Life in the Local Church, specifically as it pertains to Biblical Church Discipline, Biblical Counseling, Biblical Conflict Resolution, and Protecting the Sheep from Savage Wolves.

The scheduled speakers for the conference are Darrell Harrison, Virgil Walker, Jeff Knoblett, Jonathan Sims, Richard Caldwell, David Miller, and Barry King. For more information or to register for the conference, please visit anchoredintruth .org.

That's anchoredintruth .org. And click on the True Church Conference tab at the top of the page. Hope to see you there.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers. One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission? To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of Biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture.