April 5, 2024 Show with Angus Stewart on “The Abomination of Desolation”

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I'm sure that most of you can detect immediately that there's a change in my voice today.

Yesterday, I began to develop a sore throat, and now it has turned into a full -blown cold or case of the flu or perhaps

COVID. I'm not sure what it is. But I did not want to postpone my interview today because I enjoy interviewing today's guests so much and wanted to make sure we stuck with our previously scheduled interview for today, and I'll tell you about him and our topic in a minute.

But I do have a combination praise report and prayer request.

I am offering congratulations to Josh and Mercy Allen, the son -in -law and daughter of my very dear friends

Pastor Joe and Becky Moorcraft of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

If you listen to this program regularly, you have no doubt heard Dr. Joseph C.

Moorcraft III on this program frequently, and his church,

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In fact, they're one of the largest financial supporters of the show, even though their congregation is very small.

But the congratulations is due to Josh and Mercy Allen because Mercy just gave birth today to their precious daughter,

Rebecca Hope. And while I am thrilled and excited and offering this as a praise report, the prayer request is for little

Mercy's heart. Mercy was, I'm sorry, little

Rebecca Hope's heart. Little Rebecca Hope was born at just slightly over three pounds, and she has a heart condition that apparently is dangerous.

The parents knew about this before the birth. In fact, they were quite concerned that Rebecca Hope would not be born alive, but praise be to our sovereign king and great physician, the baby has been born alive, and they see very encouraging news and in many ways encouraging signs because the baby is crying loudly, and that's a sign that the lungs are functioning properly.

It is the heart condition that they are concerned about. So please pray for little

Rebecca Hope, born today, of Josh and Mercy Allen, the son -in -law and daughter of my dear friends

Pastor Joe and Becky Moorcraft in Cumming, Georgia.

So, today we have the honor and privilege of having back on the program after a long absence, far too long as far as I'm concerned,

Angus Stewart is on the program today. He's the pastor of Covenant Reformed, Protestant Reformed Church in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, and today he is going to be addressing the

Abomination of Desolation, One Amillennialist's View, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Angus Stewart.

It's lovely to be back again with you, Chris. And please describe for our listeners who have not heard you on this program in the past, describe for us the

Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Ballymena, Northern Ireland. The CPRC is a lively Reformed Church based on the

Word of God. Our three 16th, 17th century confessions are the

Belgic Confession of 1561, the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563, and the

Canons of Dort, the original five points of Calvinism. Our congregation is doing well by God's grace.

One of our elders is currently in hospital and I hope he's well enough to join us tonight. Brian Crossett, he's been in with diverticulitis and he's been diagnosed with COPD, so I hope that he listens and that this cheers him up as well as edifies your listeners.

Amen. And if I'm not remembering incorrectly,

I believe your website has the three forms of unity that you just mentioned in many languages.

Am I correct in that? It does. Our website probably has the most editions of the three forms of unity in different languages, possibly in any website in the world.

My wife puts them online, my wife, Mary. And we've got coming up on 4000 different translations of our pieces in written, audio and video form on there.

So we hope that is a blessing to people. Well, if anybody wants more details about Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Ballymena, Northern Ireland, go to cprc .co

.uk. cprc .co .uk. And God willing, we'll be reminding you of that website later on in the program.

Well, I think it would probably be wise to read the

New Testament text from where we get the abomination of desolation.

We read in Matthew chapter 24, verses 15 through 16.

When you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let the reader understand that those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

If you could help us understand this text according to how you view it through your exegesis and your study of scriptures and comparative study and taking the whole counsel of God into consideration.

What is it that is contained in the book of Daniel that Matthew's so fit to repeat here?

Thanks, Chris, for that superb introduction. You've gone right to the heart of it. Matthew 24, verse 15, the text which you read is the first use of the actual phrase as we have it in English, the abomination of desolation.

Jesus used that terminology. It's recorded also very, very similarly in Mark 13, verse 14.

And then in this very word where Jesus uses that now familiar phrase, the abomination of desolation, he takes us back to the source of it.

And the historical source for the abomination of desolation in the Old Testament is, as Christ says, the book of Daniel the prophet.

And Daniel refers to, in effect, the abomination of desolation in Daniel 8,

Daniel 9, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12. So four of the last five chapters of the book of Daniel, in essence, refer to it, though they don't use exactly the same terminology.

And if you're wondering about Daniel 10, why does it not use this imagery? Well, Daniel 10 doesn't actually contain a vision, a predictive prophecy.

It contains Daniel's interaction with angelic messengers. Chris, would you like me to take you to those texts in Daniel?

Yes, definitely. Okay, here is Daniel 8, verse 13. Quote, And the first use of it here doesn't talk about the abomination of desolation.

It talks about the transgression of desolation. The next reference to it,

Daniel 9, verse 27, in connection with the 70 weeks, it speaks of the overspreading of abominations, one of the keywords, the overspreading of abominations.

He shall make it desolate, even unto the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And then in Daniel 11, verse 31 and chapter 12, verse 11, it talks about the abomination that maketh desolate.

So there's a sort of a development, even in the terminology, the transgression of desolation, chapter 8, the overspreading of abominations that make it desolate.

So you have the two words abominations and desolate, but not related in precisely the same form.

And then the last two references in Daniel get closer. They refer to the abomination that maketh desolate.

And then Jesus uses the abomination of desolation. But I think we should explain those two key words, abomination and desolation.

An abomination is basically what people have rightly assumed it to be, something which is utterly disgusting, loathsome, repulsive, horrible, from which you would draw back with abhorrence.

And then the abomination of desolation means that there's something horrible, loathsome that makes, and then

I supply the context, that makes the temple, the worship of God in that place desolate.

It cannot be done. It's no longer a holy, sacred place for the worship of God.

It's been rendered desolate because of the detestable thing that has been placed there.

So hopefully that'll get our listeners right to the heart of the issue. And I already mentioned that you are an

Amillennialist, and perhaps you could even define that there are different varieties of Amillennialism, as you know.

You and I probably have some differences, as I tend to lean toward a partial preterist understanding of Amillennialism.

But I know that there are varying degrees of things believed amongst

Amillennialists that are yet to be future in their fulfillment. But explain where you're coming from.

Okay. The abomination of desolation, as you've been implying,

Chris, has a context. And I'll get to the Millennial views in a moment, but I will get there, trust me.

The abomination of desolation occurs in the Olivet Discourse on Teaching Tuesday.

Jesus spoke about the last times, a few days before his cross for our sins. It appears in that context as part of the

Great Tribulation. Jesus refers to the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, verse 11.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be.

So you've got the abomination of desolation. It's within the teaching of the Great Tribulation, which is itself within the

Olivet Discourse, Christ's longest teaching on the last times, which then is interpreted by different people within Millennial views.

Premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, all of their distinctive views. And then there are different forms of premillennialism.

There's historic premillennialism and dispensationalist premillennialism. And there's different forms of postmillennialism, historic postmillennialism, and a more reconstructionist, preterist sort of postmillennialism.

So this abomination of desolation as I'm presenting it in connection with amillennialism has,

I think this will be helpful for our listeners, has three fulfillments.

That is concrete, historical, or future instance, which the

Bible specifically refers to, and I hope we get to this later in the interview. It is a very relevant topic for what's going on today because there are other abominable things that make worship of specific churches or denominations desolate.

So, first of all, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12 refers to the first historic instance of the abomination of desolation upon which all the

Millennial views, as far as I'm aware, agree, and we love to be united on things. The abomination of desolation as set up by Antiochus Epiphanes IV in the

Temple of Jerusalem in 168 -167 BC. So this is a

Greek abomination of desolation in the second century before Christ.

Daniel 8, 11, and 12 refers to that. Then Matthew 24, verse 15, refers to an abomination of desolation, a

Roman abomination of desolation, if you will, in AD 70, when the Roman Empire, under the command of Titus, devastated

Jerusalem and the temple and were engaged in idolatrous acts in that mighty structure.

And Daniel 9 is the chapter of the four in Daniel that refer to it. And then, as an amillennialist,

I believe that there is a third future -to -us instance of the abomination of desolation, very near the second coming of Jesus Christ, when he will come to raise the dead, judge the nations, and bring in the eternal state of the new heavens and the new earth and the lake of fire.

And this third, final, highest form of the abomination of desolation is predicted by way of typology, especially from the book of Daniel and from Matthew 24.

And this final abomination of desolation is spoken of in slightly different terminology in 2

Thessalonians 2, where the man of sin comes into the temple of God, which is a good amillennialist,

I take to be the church, making the worship of God in the church institute, visible church, is impossible.

And Revelation 13 speaks of the image of the beast, which is the abomination of desolation, writ large at the very end of this present evil age.

Did that cover it for you, Chris? Oh, yeah. Chris, have we lost you? No, I had myself on mute because I was coughing my brains out, and I forgot to unmute myself.

Oh, that's okay. Sorry, not that I want to see you coughing your brains out, but I thought we'd lost you there.

No, that's quite all right. Well, we are going to continue where you left off when we return from our first commercial break.

And if anybody wants to join the conversation with a question for Pastor Angus Stewart on the abomination of desolation, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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But please, if it's a general question about what the scriptures teach about this, what historically has been taught about this by great men of the past and so on, if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Angus Stewart after these messages. Greetings. This is

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today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Angus Stewart. And before I take a listener question, because whether I take the question now or later will be determined by your response to me, do you want to go through with a magnifying glass as it were and provide more detail on those three fulfillments of prophecy of the

Abomination of Desolation or do you want to focus primarily on the yet -to -be future fulfillment of this?

Chris, am I allowed to say both? Sure, you are allowed to say both. You offer a kid a mint ice cream or a strawberry one and the answer is both.

Alright, I'll wait to ask Wendy in Yapank, Long Island, New York.

I'll wait to ask her question then because it will have you going out of sequence chronologically.

I beg for Wendy's indulgence. A little bit then about the first instance of the

Abomination of Desolation spoken of in Daniel 8, 11, and 12, the one connected with Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who was based in Syria.

Here it's helpful to quote some parts of 1st and 2nd

Maccabees which are in the Apocrypha. Now, I don't believe that the Apocryphal books are inspired.

No, no, only 66 books were breathed forth by the Holy Spirit but we can make use of the

Maccabees just as much as we can make use of the Encyclopedia Britannica or a guidebook.

The 1st Maccabees chapter 1, verse 54 refers to the forces of Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

It says they set up the Abomination upon the altar and then verse 59 of chapter 1 says on the 25th day of the month they did sacrifice upon the idol altar which was upon the altar of God.

So according to 1st Maccabees 1, there was the altar of God in this rebuilt temple by Zerubbabel and then the

Greeks came and put an altar on top of the altar and then they offered swine's flesh which is contrary to the

Old Testament ceremonial law in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. They offered swine's flesh upon this other altar, upon God's altar it being an unclean animal and this swine's flesh was offered to Zeus one of the

Olympian gods of the Greeks and this rendered God's temple desolate, this abominable thing and then

Antiochus Epiphanes didn't rest content with that. He slaughtered the people, killed circumcised children required people to engage in the

Greek culture which included males performing naked and sporting activities.

He took away the golden altar, the candlestick of light the table of showbread and all the vessels, vials and censers from the temple and then we also read that he forbade the

Sabbath he forbade the Jewish Old Testament feast days and he required the people to hold celebrations to Bacchus or Dionysius the god of wine, drunkenness and partying profaning and desolating the people of God so I think that's helpful to get out because that's the first one historically the one that everyone agrees on and it sort of sets the tone for Daniel's idea of it which

Jesus picks up on in Matthew chapter 24 We don't have just as much historical detail as provided in 1st and 2nd

Maccabees with the second historical instance of the abomination of desolation

Josephus, a Jewish historian, refers to it I'm going to cite a little bit from Albert Barnes' commentary on Matthew referring to the

Roman or AD 70 abomination of desolation It talks about the

Roman armies with their ensigns or standards coming into the temple

Josephus relates that when the city of Jerusalem was taken the Romans brought their idols into the temple and placed them over the eastern gate and sacrificed to them there and he cites

Josephus' Jewish Wars, book 6, chapter 6 and section 1 and then of course the

Romans went on to destroy that temple as Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 so that there wouldn't be one stone upon another stone and then, such as the millennial contention which

I'd like to back up later these two instances in the 2nd century BC, the Greek one and the 1st century

AD, the Roman one with both taking place in the temple in Jerusalem foreshadow, point ahead to the future one in connection with the personal antichrist at the end of the age

I thought that would be a good point to stop Yep, sorry Sure, that's fine and I guess we can take

Wendy's question now Wendy in Yapank, Long Island, New York asks

In your view of the future fulfillment of the abomination of desolation prophecy do you believe that this is going to be the

Roman Catholic Church involved in this desecration? Will it be those from Evangelical Christianity at large in a general way or just a universal group of Christians coming from all backgrounds?

Wow, that's a big question from Wendy The short answer is all of the above That is, the subject of the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 in 2

Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 which develop this concept further and which both harken back to Daniel and in Daniel 8, 9, 11 and 12 all of those chapters and that's four from Daniel and four from New Testament all of them connect the abomination of desolation with apostasy that is, professing

Christians, not true elect believers but those who profess the faith in some shape or form departing even more vilely from Jesus Christ engaging in false worship and they do that in part because of the temptation to avoid persecution which is also a massive theme in those passages and that in connection with the

Antichrist who's typified by Antiochus Epiphanies in Daniel 8, 11 and 12 the man of sin as he's called in 2

Thessalonians 2 who's called the beast in Revelation 13 and the connection between Roman Catholicism and the man of sin and our subject the abomination of desolation is long, very, very long

I could quote to you the Bohemian Confession of 1573 which takes references to the abomination of desolation and applies them to the papacy there's the second confession of London, Amsterdam Congregationalist Independence of 1596 they applied the abomination of desolation to the papacy and also to Anglicanism which had forced them to leave their native

England but even before the Reformation there's a

Hussite manifesto of 1419 which said that the papacy was a manifestation of the abomination of desolation and even going back to 1354 the

Fraticelli they said that the abomination of desolation was the papal condemnation of apostolic poverty let me explain the

Fraticelli were Franciscan monks the Franciscans were big into poverty apostolic poverty you're not allowed to own anything this of course caused problems because Jesus himself even owned the clothes and his back and his house in Capernaum the papacy then condemned their strict form of apostolic poverty and the

Fraticelli in 1354 then said that the papal condemnation of apostolic poverty is itself the manifest fulfillment of the abomination of desolation so and of course those are just some historical examples and I'm assuming that in this rare instance you agree with the papacy over the

Fraticelli which by the way is served with clam sauce over at my favorite

Italian restaurant I'm like but you don't agree that this vow of apostolic poverty was something that Christians should obey and follow oh no, oh no the three classic monastic vows of celibacy poverty and obedience you have to do whatever your superior tells you well that's not biblical you shouldn't subject yourself to a man in that way at all and then celibacy that's an unnatural thing and only certain people have the gift 1

Corinthians 7 is very clear on that and that of course has led into all sorts of fornication and homosexuality within the papacy that has been going on for centuries and has been exposed especially recently by more secular people who wish to discredit

Christianity by attacking the Roman church but the vow of poverty the

Bible doesn't Acts 5 for instance when you sell something it remains your own under God the believer and indeed the unbeliever owns things and the apostolic poverty of the

Fraticelli or little brethren supposedly devout followers of Francis of Assisi they were barking up the wrong tree they got themselves into a lot of trouble there, they were dead wrong their criticisms of the papacy in general and the other ones though were quite right ok we have

Simeon in Toronto Canada who asks does your view of the future fulfillment of the abomination of desolation get more detailed on exactly what is occurring in our future by the apostate church

I'm assuming Simeon is talking about like you already mentioned one of the past fulfillments was a statue of Zeus so what would be a future fulfillment and if you don't know for certain according to your eschatology do you have a guess there are two big elements in that one is, one involves the nature of prophecy and what can reasonably be expected beforehand for instance

I was reading a very fine commentary on Daniel earlier today and it was dealing with Daniel 11 and so the question was how much do we expect beforehand, what refers to Antioch as Epiphanies the fourth and then by analogy and typology what refers to the final

Antichrist how do you then put that together with Matthew 24 2

Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 with the image of the beast, how literally do you interpret certain things and how much are we supposed to know because there's a way in which and Daniel actually itself makes this pretty clear that these things are in a sense sealed you don't know exactly how things are going to be fulfilled until the reality comes the broad outline is there but the details who can put together,

I'll use an analogy the first coming of Christ we know because he's come our saviour and because the

New Testament interprets it that Psalm 110 for instance says that he would be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek Genesis 49 and Isaiah 11 just to cite two chapters out of many, predicts that he's a king.

Isaiah 53 pictures him as a suffering servant we know how those were fulfilled we know about the life and ministry and cross of Jesus and his resurrection from the dead but putting all that together for a saint let's say 300

BC would have been more difficult and so I'm arguing by analogy how much do we know about what exactly is going to take what exact form it's going to take for instance, let's take the image of the beast imagine someone in 1700 reading that passage

Revelation 13 how is there going to be some sort of an image that can speak or destroy people then when television comes along in the 20th century then someone could say maybe, maybe there's going to be something like a television in there in the 21st century we have avatars maybe something like that could happen for instance we have the mark of the beast, is the mark of the beast also mentioned in Revelation 13 going to be something physical some say yes, some say no, if it is going to be physical something like a bar chip a bar code or a chip implanted would be one way in which that could be fulfilled so within these sorts of parameters in the meantime because I could go into more details in the meantime we don't have to know every detail and not everybody in the radio show has to know every detail, that is speakers but in the meantime we're to pray about these things think about these things, watch and to be faithful to the revelation we've given to avoid worldliness false worship and to follow the lamb wherever he goes, that's my brief answer trying to cover most of the main elements

Alright, we have Aggie in Battleground Washington and by the way Aggie, I don't know if you are a member of a biblically solid church but if you're not

I can highly recommend one in Battleground Washington pastored by my very dear friend

William Webster who is a prolific author primarily on the heresies of Roman Catholicism and has written for Banner of Truth as well as publishing his own works, but I'll just throw that out there, but Aggie in Battleground Washington asks how different is your view from the dispensationalist, futurist understanding of this prophecy?

Very different Quick word about William Webster this reminds me,

I loaned one of his fine books on, I think it was the Church of Rome or the Bar of History to someone or other

That's an excellent book I don't know who it was but it never came back

It wasn't me I'm sure it wasn't I get free copies from Banner of Truth so it wasn't me

Oh, the perks of being a radio talk show host, Chris The differences with dispensationalism are many and deep

First of all, we do not believe in a literal thousand year millennium

I am an amillennialist of the School of Augustine The millennium is the period between the first and second coming of Christ.

Christ bound the strong man at his first coming and he will be released as Revelation 20 says, towards the end in Satan's little season in connection with the operation of Antichrist and persecution and so forth abomination of desolation comes in so there is no future literal thousand year millennium never mind a particularly

Jewish millennium with those horrible ideas of bringing back a temple and animal sacrifices and a priesthood which is all going backwards and contrary to the book of Hebrews Secondly, there is no literal seven year tribulation as per dispensationalism

Thirdly, there is no rapture of never mind a secret rapture of some saints which most dispensations would put at the start of their literal seven year tribulation and besides those three things in the future, there is the erroneous, hermeneutic totally contrary to scripture interpreting scripture this

Israel versus the church notion which is just terrible they make the church play second fiddle to the church of Jesus Christ as bride play second fiddle to the

Jews in the Old Testament whereas the Jews the Old Testament is preparatory, pointing ahead to the greater day, the gathering of a

Catholic or universal church out of all nations and they put the greater thing, they make the greater thing serve the lesser thing and then of course there is the hermeneutic that results in all forms of totally unreformed not to say bizarre interpretations so I hope we've covered the main things there

Chris, would you like to add anything to that? Well, I'd just like to say that I know that many dispensationalists refer to the church as a parenthesis before the return of Christ, just as you were saying playing second fiddle to the

Jews and the nation of Israel but I wanted to clarify something that you said because I know you did not mean by your denial of the rapture as you described it

I know that you are not a hyperpreterist which is heresy and people may misunderstand what you said, thinking that you do not believe in a future of fulfillment that is included to the

Thessalonians for instance where the saints will be caught up in the air with Christ at the end, before the last day

Yes, Chris, I appreciate anyone who wants to make me out to be orthodox that's usually not what happens so yes definitely at 1st

Corinthians 15 but also 1st Thessalonians 4 does say that the saints will be taken up to meet

Christ in the air, and that after the resurrection of believers in connection with the general resurrection of believers and unbelievers but that happens at the 2nd coming of Christ and the key thing is that there is one 2nd coming of Christ, one resurrection one final judgment and unlike the dispensationists, we don't believe in a 1st 2nd coming before the 7 year tribulation and a 2nd 2nd coming before the literal thousand years, and then a 3rd 2nd coming at the end of the millennium it starts to get really silly with all these 2's and 3's and then the next thing, does this come at the start of this, does this come after that the apostles creed had it right we believe in the coming of Christ, we believe in the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting, and premillennialism, and then dispensationalism have been slicing and dicing and making it incredibly complicated

Yes, I just wanted to make sure you made that clear Thank you And we are going to our midway break now folks, so please use this time wisely, write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers purchase their products, and use their services, and visit their churches but when you can't do that, please at least thank them for sponsoring the show and of course, send in your questions to Angus Stewart to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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Abomination of Desolation. That's chrisorensen at gmail .com, chrisorensen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. And we have Poppy in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

And Poppy says, I just heard you answering a question about how you differ from dispensationalist eschatology, but I was wondering how you differ from dispensationalists about the specifics regarding the future fulfillment of the

Abomination of Desolation. That's a very good follow -up question.

Thank you, Poppy. The dispensationalist view of the

Abomination of Desolation places it in a literal seven -year tribulation, as I've said, literally in the land of Israel, Canaan, Palestine, in a literal rebuilt temple of the

Jews, so that according to them, the

Abomination of Desolation will be set up halfway, most as far as I can tell, halfway through the literal seven years in that literal temple, and they will be offering sacrifices.

One of the difficulties, of course, for Christians with this whole theological concept, before we look even at the exegesis, the idea of having a temple, even before the

Abomination of Desolation put it out, having a temple offering animals, with Jesus Christ having died on the cross for the sins of his people 2 ,000 years ago and counting, is itself an abomination.

How would you have an Abomination of Desolation in the middle of that when the whole thing is an abomination? Yes. Now, I'm assuming you believe it is possible that there could be a temple that is constructed in the future, but that is not a good thing, and it's not a prophecy that goes along with faithful Christians sacrificing animals as a new form of the

Lord's Supper or something like that that some dispensationalists say as an explanation.

It could happen, though, but not for the reasons they think it will. Yes, it could happen.

And I say it could happen because I don't know the future.

I mean, it could happen that the team that's last in the NBA wins all its matches and tops the league.

It could happen. I don't know anything about the NBA, and I don't even know if that's mathematically possible.

But yes, the Bible doesn't say one way or the other. I mean, who knows? Somebody could build something.

But for one thing, you were talking earlier about offerings, and what you said was very wise.

But for a professing Christian to be given money to build a temple in Jerusalem, is mind -boggling.

I mean, I can think of a thousand and one things that would be better to give it to. That is, if you're not already taxed like crazy and you've already earned it to hand out.

Yes, there are actually Christians who are funding the breeding of red heifers in order for the sacrificial system to return.

And it's amazing how bordering on blasphemy it is when you hear some of these

Christians talk about this as if Jesus is waiting for men to accomplish certain things on earth before he returns.

Yes. Yes, that's a total misreading, too, of Numbers chapter 19.

I mean, Numbers 19, regarding the ashes of the red heifer, part of the Old Testament ceremonial law, which is abrogated because fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Belgic Confession 25 makes it really clear. Numbers 19 doesn't even give all the specifics of Judaism.

They have to do this special breeding. It's just a red heifer. The laws are if there's one or two or three hairs or something crazy, then it's no longer red.

No, a red heifer is just a sort of a reddy brown heifer that hasn't been plowed before.

It's a certain age and so forth. So they make extra biblical qualifications regarding this heifer.

And the New Testament tells us about the red heifer. In Numbers 9, here's its argument.

If the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean,

Hebrews 9 verse 13, sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh. If that grants you ceremonial cleansing, which is the best anything could happen within the

Old Testament ceremonial law, the proper application of this comes in the next verse.

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living

God? It's a lesser to the greater. Here's this animal in the Old Testament, give you ceremonial cleansing for certain types of transgressions of the law.

Well, you should be saying, boy, if that can do that, well, what about the blood of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the son of God who offered himself up through the

Holy Spirit? He did it sinlessly to God as a sacrifice on our cross. Well, that's the argument.

I'm to lay hold of that by faith to no cleansing and purging of all my sins and all my dead works to free me from that guilt in order to serve the living

God. And then you get these guys and they're breeding. There's a chap whose name escapes me. But I remember reading about him.

I think he was in Nebraska and he was doing what you were trying to do with it. But you think of no people of God, Hebrews nine.

There's your gospel. There's your message. There's your mission. But oh, no, we're into animal breeding. Oh, it makes you it makes you despair.

Terrible. OK, we have this. Yes, I'm still here. I was just going to ask, did we cover everything there for for for Poppy?

Well, that's that's hard to tell since Poppy is not sitting next to me. But, Poppy, if you want to email a follow up question, let us know if you need something further clarified.

Yes. Oh, Chris, I should add this. The positive instead of Jews in Palestine, the abomination of desolation is global all around the world and for the church.

So that's the positive attack. Yes. OK, we have victory in Willowbrook, California.

I love that name victory and victory asks. And there's a comment and a question.

From my experience with our millennialism, our millennialists tend to do more reacting to other eschatological views that they believe are false rather than enthusiastic from the enthusiastically promoting their own view.

What is it that is so important in your mind about our millennialism and what harm could come to Christians for not being our millennialists?

Boy, that's a that's a penetrating question with a name like victory. If Russus J. Rastuni was here, he would pretend that that man should be a post -millennialist.

The key question, of course, is the nature of the victory. My eschatology is actually not about reacting to other eschatologies.

My eschatology was born out of the simple, heartfelt desire. What does the

Bible actually teach? I have experience with dispensationalism because I used to be one and premillennialism because I gave up dispensationalism.

I thought, well, maybe I can hold on to my premillennialism. And then I've experienced with post -millennialism, especially through the banner of truth, the older, more historical one.

They publish some post -millennial authors. And then with the reconstructionist issue, because we had a controversy with that in our church about about 20, 20 years ago.

But for me, the key issue is exegesis. You know, what does the Bible teach? I get into the various forms of premillennialism because, as a very young Christian, not really knowing much, people put certain books in my head, in my hand.

And then I read Salem, Kirben, and got in touch with some brethren type people.

But the more I read the Bible, the Westminster Confession, John Calvin, and kept reading

Scripture and soaking them through and interpreting Scripture with Scripture, I believe that amillennialism is just true.

It's the surface reading of the passages. It's the middle reading of the passages. It's the depth reading of the passages.

And when you compare Old Testament with New Testament, Daniel, Matthew 24,

Revelation, it fits and it also fits with the whole biblical eschatological framework. Chris, you're going to like this.

I'm going to recommend a book by a Baptist. You may well know the chap. Samuel E. Waldron has a very helpful book,

The End Times Made Simple, How Could Everyone Be So Wrong About Biblical Prophecy? Yes, Sam has been on my program a number of times.

Very good. And Sam is also the president of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Kentucky, Owensboro, Kentucky.

And one of my former pastors is on the faculty and president of the board there.

Very good. So his book was the one that I thought most laid out well, the treatment of the two ages, this age from creation fall to the second coming of Christ and the age to come and what the

Bible says about this age and what the Bible says about the age to come. Related to that is another of the Bible's time periods, the last days, which is the, which, and I could prove this over time, the period between Christ's first coming is death, burial, resurrection, the outpouring of the

Holy Spirit and the second coming. And then Christ's second coming is the last day.

And with the two ages, the last days and the last day, and the things that come immediately before the last day that happened at the last day and come after it, you have the

Bible's own time framework within to fit the various passages, because that's what the debate in many ways is about.

Here's this passage. Does that refer to a millennium? Does it refer to a seven year tribulation? Does it refer to a golden age?

Well, where do you put the passages? And I think the Bible's own framework is the best way of answering the question.

And I'm convinced that it is a millennial. And with regard to positive, I'm an incredibly positive person,

Chris. We have a hundred classes on eschatology, and we're actually partway through it in our church on our website, cprc .co

.uk forward slash resources dash on dash eschatology. And for your listeners, currently, it's on the very top right of our website, cprc .co

.uk. Click on that. There's a hundred audios of doctrinal classes, and we're not even finished on the end times.

There's books on there. There's pamphlets, including some by Prof. Engelsman, who

I know you've had on, wonderful man, and others that will really flesh this out.

It's something, eschatology, that gives people hope, that lifts their heads up to the second coming of Christ.

And if I can add a little bit of an ad hominem here, on the other side, my experience is that with, maybe this is more post -millennialists in the

British Isles, that they tend on the whole to be rather gloomy, because they look at the way things are going in church and state in the

British Isles, and they're not going well. They're not going well in Europe and generally either. And then they say, look at this.

This is terrible. This is terrible. And they're right. And then they say, ah, but, but I'm a post -millennialist, so things are going to get better.

And then they're 50 or 70 years old, and they say, yeah, but I'm probably not even going to see it. So the victory isn't even going to do them any good.

And then, of course, we define victory different. We're victorious when by faith we endure in Jesus Christ. We press on.

We witness. We suffer. We serve the Lord, and we have a good conscience, and we're looking forward to our eternal reward and fellowship with Jesus Christ.

Did that cover most of it for you, Chris? Do you think will victory be convinced? That I couldn't tell you, but if she wants to follow up with another question, that would be great as well.

I didn't realize victory was a she. Oh, you know something I don't know? I don't know why

I thought that immediately, but you're right, it could be a man. I mean, I apologize, victory, if I misgendered you, not in the way that people are accused of doing it today, but actually identifying you in a different gender than you are.

But one of the reasons that the more futuristic dispensationalist views are problematic to me, just one of the reasons, is that the predictions of the nearness of Christ's return abound.

They've been going on ever since dispensationalists rose to existence in the 19th century, and over and over again, people who hear and witness this proclamation that Jesus is definitely, it's often said, definitely is going to return in our lifetime, and then they could be viewed very rightly as false prophets for making these kinds of claims, because it doesn't happen.

Indeed, and it discredits Christianity. John Nelson Darby himself predicted that the rapture would occur sometime during 1842.

John Nelson Darby said that the rapture would occur sometime during 1842, and that's cited in Jonathan D.

Burnham's book entitled A Story of Conflict, The Controversial Relationship Between Benjamin's Wills Newton, who was a historic pre -mill, and John Nelson Darby, who was a dispensationalist, and he was false.

It was dead wrong. That's in a book, Behold, I Come Quickly. I cited that in an article

I've written in a book, Behold, I Come Quickly, The Reformed Biblical Truth of the End, written by David J.

Engelsman and Andy Lanning, and our church published that book a while ago. Chris, we have another eschatology conference coming up too, in four months' time.

Where is that? A week -long conference. At your church? It's in Shropshire in England. Oh, wow.

We're going to deal with it. We've got a lovely venue, an old stately house, booked for a week.

Reverend Ron Henkel, my former pastor, and Prof. Brian Huizinga are going to speak on the

Reformed Doctrine of Eschatology, and I'm going to give a historical lecture entitled The Venerable Bede and the

Book of Revelation. Wow. The Venerable Bede was an English monk, 672 -673 to 735.

He's got a very interesting commentary on the Book of Revelation, and it agrees pretty much, you'll not be surprised to hear, with what

I've been saying tonight, actually, Chris. So there you have it. We've got almost the conference entirely booked up.

It's the 3rd to the 10th of August this year, four months' time. But if there is anybody who wants to come, do a web search for the

British Reformed Fellowship or the British Reformed Fellowship Conference, and they'll find it. But book quickly because we're running out of beds at the conference center.

Now, when people go there in Shropshire, England, do they have to fear the

Shropshire Slasher? That's just a joke because I don't know if you watched Bugs Bunny cartoons in Northern Ireland.

I did when I was growing up, and that was a character in one of the Bugs Bunny episodes, the

Shropshire Slasher, a British criminal. It immediately came to my memory when you mentioned that city.

Chris, I feel awful. I used to watch Bugs Bunny, and I never heard tell of the

Shropshire Slasher, and I'll be giving some guided tours during this conference. I'm going to have to search out the

Shropshire Slasher and mention it on one of our day trips. Well, I'm sure the only place it will come up is in a

Bugs Bunny cartoon if you Google it. Now, what is the website for people to register for that?

Let's see. There are three websites. There's the main website of the British Reformed Fellowship, probably easier just to do a search.

Then there's British Reformed Fellowship Weebly, which gives us details about the conference, how to travel there, day trips, costs, booking form.

But my wife Mary is beside me. She said if you go to cprc .co .uk, near the top right, besides the material on eschatology, but near the top right on the right -hand side of the homepage, cprc .co

.uk, there'll be a link to the BRF conference, and there'll be other links off that. So that should be very good.

And I know that we have listeners in England and other parts of the

UK, so I hope that some of them will respond favorably to that promotion and we'll get there.

What major cities in England is Shropshire near? The closest airports would be

Liverpool and Manchester, Birmingham, East Midlands.

They're all about an hour or slightly more away. Shropshire doesn't have big cities.

It has Shrewsbury, which is the birth of Charles Darwin, whose dangerous idea of evolutionism has done so much damage to this world.

But Shropshire was also where the Industrial Revolution started. So we're going to get deep eschatology and really interesting history about the

Industrial Revolution. It involves Henry VIII, not the Industrial Revolution, but Shropshire, how he came to be king in the development of Anglicanism.

And the Olympic Games had a boost. Matthew Henry, my wife mentions, she's in the background here, she's telling me things that I should say.

Chester, the city of Chester where Matthew Henry, the great Presbyterian Bible commentator, ministered for many years.

You can see where his old church was and there's an obelisk to his memory and one of the day trips will go to Chester.

Chris, you'll nearly be wanting to come yourself by the time we finish this segment of the show. Well, I'm already interested, but sometimes

I'm interested in doing many things that I can't afford to do. By the way,

I want to let you know that a listener in the States here in the United States, Cheryl, said that she has found your website to be a great blessing.

And another listener mentions that you had a debate on Calvinism.

It's Peter, but I don't know where Peter is from, that you had a debate on Calvinism.

When did that happen and who did you debate? Oh, there was a debate on Calvinism.

I think he's referring to the video debate. It was on Revelation TV in London. I'm just going to the website to remind myself when it was.

11 years ago, so I think that would be, no, 14 years ago.

So it would have been about 2010 then or 2009.

Interestingly, on that subject, we're using modern technology to translate that debate into Spanish.

We're partway through and we want to get it in Portuguese, possibly Chinese, Indonesian, German, French, and different languages and get that on YouTube.

Then who was your debating opponent? Oh, the opponent, let's see, his name was

Timothy Ramsey, a minister from London or its environs. Okay, and assuming a full -blown

Arminian? Yes, yes, yes. I think he was a five -pointer.

Wow. Did he actually label himself as an Arminian because most Arminians don't?

He did. I remember the chap who introduced it said, tonight we have two characters, one in the red corner and one in the blue corner.

Like a boxing match. So there was total disagreement on the controverted area.

There wasn't much common ground. Well, by the way, thank you,

Cheryl in Amarillo, Texas, for that compliment and encouragement to Angus and Peter.

I'd love to hear where you're from, who mentioned the Calvinist debate. But we're going to our final commercial break right now, and if you do have a question,

I would strongly urge you to submit it now before we run out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avivio, and thanks for listening. I'm Dr.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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Now shipping worldwide. Welcome back.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, pastorsluncheon in the subject line. And remember, it's absolutely free.

We are now back with Angus Stewart, and we have been discussing the abomination of desolation.

And I was wondering what books you might be able to recommend that are compatible with your specific view of the abomination of desolation.

Chris, you might be surprised to learn that when I researched this topic, that I didn't find one particularly good book from any perspective, eschatological view.

But we have a good work here by Reverend Martin McGeown, Called to Watch for Christ's Return, which deals with Matthew 24 and 25, and there's a good chapter in there on the abomination of desolation.

Professor Engelsman has two works on eschatology, volume one and volume two, The Church's Hope, the

Reformed Doctrine of the End is a good treatment in there. Various commentaries on Daniel, E .J.

Young, Joyce Baldwin. There's some fascinating material in more secular work, but Bernard McGinn's Antichrist, 2 ,000

Years of the Human Fascination with Evil, some very interesting historical material there.

On Matthew 24, Christ's Spiritual Kingdom by Prof. Engelsman, The Right Interpretation of the

Olivet Discourse, B. of E. Preterism and Postmillennialism. And there's some good insights in Bede's commentary on Revelation there.

Chris, I thought I'd just throw that one in. Chris, I should add at this point, though, a member of our church column, he says the

Shrupshire Slasher, it was a cartoon, but it was Daffy Duck and Bucky Pig, not

Bugs Bunny. I thought you'd appreciate that. Yes, I do. It's important to get our theology right and even our cartoons.

Well, you've got to have them show you the clip. I guess it's on YouTube or something.

Go ahead. Chris, could I throw in a couple of points from the New Testament on the importance of the abomination of desolation that I haven't mentioned yet?

I think your listeners will enjoy this. The Feast of Dedication is mentioned in John 10, verse 22.

It was the rededication of the temple in Jerusalem after its profanation and the abomination of desolation with Antiochus Epiphanes IV in the 2nd century

BC. And Jesus is in Jerusalem in John 10, 22 at the temple. And Jesus, as it were, talks about the right way to cleanse

God's temple, to have the people of God worshipping right. And he talks about what's in effect the doctrines of grace.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. But he said to the reprobate,

Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. And earlier in the same chapter, he says,

I am the good shepherd, and I lay down my life for the sheep. In fact, all of the five points of Calvinism are taught in John 10, a chapter which mentions the

Feast of Dedication. This is how we really cleanse the temple of the people of God with sound doctrine.

And there's this too, Acts 15, the well -known Jerusalem Council. There were four things that that council said that should be done as an act of charity and as part of Christian liberty, including abstaining from the pollution of idols and from things strangled and from blood.

And part of the Jewish sensibility with these things was, because it was just over a couple of hundred years ago, this

Jerusalem Council, Acts 15, was the profanation of the temple, making people eat unclean meats and blood sacrifices that weren't of the clean creatures as prescribed by the law.

And then with a view to positivity, Chris, this

Antiochus Epiphanes IV, this type of Antichrist and the one who brought in the first abomination of desolation, he was based, with a name like Antiochus Epiphanes, he was based in Antioch, in Syria.

And the book of Acts tells us that that was the place where believers were first called

Christians in the very base of a man who's a type of the Antichrist. And the apostle

Paul went out on his first, second, and third missionary journeys from Antioch.

So Antioch, the Jerusalem Council, the Feast of Dedication, and John 10 are all things which benefit from an understanding of the abomination of desolation in the book of Daniel.

I thought that that would be worthwhile for our listeners tonight. Yes, definitely helpful.

We have... Excuse me. We have a listener in Casper, Wyoming.

And the listener's name is Baron. And Baron asks,

Do the three forms of unity which you mentioned at the beginning of the program are your doctrinal standard at your church?

Get anywhere near specific about the abomination of desolation?

And does it also require a specific eschatological view at all?

May people of all of the major eschatological views claim the three forms of unity as their own.

The three forms of unity do not mention the abomination of desolation. And the four volumes of the

Reformed Confessions of the 16th and 17th century, wonderful books edited by James Dennison, Jr.,

we could only find a couple of references to it through the texts. The abomination of desolation has not really been treated in creedal documents.

The closest and fullest treatment of eschatology in the three forms of unity is

Belgic Confession Article 37, the last article which deals with the end times, especially in terms of the renewal of the world, the final judgment.

It mentions persecution and hardships for God's people. The Heidelberg Catechism in various places, especially in its interpretation of several articles in the

Apostles' Creed, speaks similarly. It's clear there's only one second coming.

There's one resurrection of the dead. There's no millennium. And the people of God suffer in this world, a world under curse and sin, and look up for hope for the second coming of Jesus Christ, who is our only comfort.

Chris, we're short of time. I would like to throw this in, if I may. Chris, thank you.

I've been talking about the abomination of desolation in the second century B .C., the first century A .D., and in the future.

Briefly, the application of the abomination of desolation in our day, because there were things, abominations, brought into churches which make the churches worship desolate and drive out true believers.

The baptism of dogs and cats. People skateboarding down the aisle.

Ministers. This is going on in churches in the British Isles. People preaching salvation by man's free will.

Justification by works. Jesus said, Luke 16, verse 15, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts.

For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. There's the abomination of desolation in a lesser form.

This is an application of it. Women ministers. I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over a man.

1 Timothy 2. How could a Christian go there? Get out and take your family out.

Leviticus 18, verse 22 and 20, verse 13 calls homosexuality an abomination.

Cross -dressing is an abomination. Deuteronomy 22, verse 5.

And when you see a church which is LGBT ministers and flags outside, they may as well have the abomination of desolation in there.

Because there's no fear of God. There's no truth. They've converted themselves to apostasy and wickedness.

Idolatry and interfaith. Because the number one use of the word abomination in the

Bible is idolatry. Ezekiel 8 talks about four great abominations in the temple which caused

God to leave in Ezekiel 10. The mass. Worldliness.

There's fascinating history. There's really important eschatology. And this is really practical for the people of God.

Avoid the abomination of desolation. And the presence of Jesus Christ brings blessing in the church.

Pursue him and follow the truth. Amen. Well, I know one thing for certain is I'm definitely pulling my poodle out of confirmation class.

I'm just kidding. You know, I know a man who is

Church of England rector. And he was at one time very sound.

Theologically adhered to the 39 articles of religion and so on. Very reformed.

But then I heard years ago that sadly he caved in and started to bless animals.

Not actually baptize them like you said. And I tried to lay that aside in my head as bizarre as that is.

But then it got worse. I don't know what his beliefs are or if he just did this out of fear.

But he actually had a lesbian bishop preach from his pulpit. And that devastated me.

And I called him several times for an explanation and never returned my call. Very tragic.

Well, I want to make sure that our website for Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Northern Ireland.

It is cprc .co .uk cprc .co

.uk cprc .co .uk cprc .co .uk I also want to remind our listeners please continue praying for baby

Rebecca Hope who was born today. The granddaughter of my dear friend

Dr. Joe Moorcraft and his wife Becky. Rebecca Hope is only a little over three pounds and has a heart condition that may prove to be fatal.

So please pray for this little child. And also remember if you're a man in ministry leadership and you'd like to attend my next free biannual

Iron Trepans Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon on Thursday, June the 6th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. in Perry County, Pennsylvania featuring

Dr. Joel Beakey, please send me an email to register at chrisarnson at gmail dot com and put

Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Everything is absolutely free of charge. I want to thank you again

Pastor Angus. You did a remarkable job as I knew you would. I look forward to your return to the show.

I want to thank all of our listeners, especially those who took the time to write. I hope you all have a very safe and blessed and joyful and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater