Should Christians Celebrate Halloween & Churches Hold Trunk or Treat Events? Jason Farley #DMW243

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To celebrate Halloween or not to celebrate Halloween. That is the question stick around Exploring theology doctrine and all of the fascinating subjects in between Broadcasting from an undisclosed location dead men walking starts

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Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of dead men walking podcast. I'm your host

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Greg Moore You can find out more about us dmw podcast .com or check us out on the socials dead men walking podcast on Twitter X at real dmw podcast

00:45

Welcome back to another episode guys Yeah, I had a good one sat down with Jason Farley this week

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He's at Lord TV's a poet author creator Has a sub stack.

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That's awesome a podcast. That's awesome and He was arguing in the affirmative for the celebration of Halloween as Christian the celebration of trunk -or -treat if you're a church and I was kind of arguing in the negative

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Taking the other side of that and asking some questions and when I say arguing I'm just saying having a friendly discussion about Jason Farley's been on the podcast before Years ago,

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I mean when we first started maybe in the first year and then I think one more time two years ago So it's been a couple years since he's been on but always good to see that brother and we just had a really good 45 minute 50 minute conversation on the history of Halloween is it pagan?

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Is it Christian what it looked like for the reformers what it looked like for the colonists in early

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America what it then looked like in the early 20th century and Currently what it looks like then we went into is it biblically permissible

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Is it a Christian conscience issue Why do we why would we celebrate it? I brought up some points about wanting to see

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Hallows Eve and Event all Saints Day November 1st being restored to its original meeting reformed and then restored

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He agreed with that But I think we came at it at different ways on how we can do that I had more of a stance of well, let's not participate in those things and actually restore

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And redeem it to what it was by worshiping and reflecting Christ and honoring the martyrs that came before us

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He took a different approach and said look at to be effective You you know You can't abstain from something because that's retreating and we don't retreat we go into other spaces and we and Reform it that way and I came back and said well

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I don't know if we necessarily say that abstaining from something means we're retreating, you know, the

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Puritans came up things like that So it was a really good discussion Jason always has very good points.

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He knows his history He definitely knows his culture both secular pagan and Christian culture and we talked about it

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And I think we had some common ground We agreed on a lot more stuff than I thought we would but we disagreed in some points as well, too

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And I think it's a good discussion for you guys the listeners to listen to if you're one of those people who are on one side or the other of Celebrating or not celebrating abstaining or taking part in Halloween or if you're on the fence and you're going like well

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What are the reasons here? What are the biblical reasons? What are the historical reasons? Maybe what are some

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Christian conscience issues that I could have or couldn't have about celebrating or not celebrating.

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So overall, I think it was a Very good Discussion. I think you guys are gonna like it

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And it's always a joy to have Jason on so I'm not gonna keep you too much longer When you're listening to this we will be

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Well, no, it'll still be about a week away from leaving for fight laugh feast But I'm kind of pre recording some episodes so that we can bring you some live content going into the first week of November With the fight laugh feast conference prodigal

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America So a couple of these things might not be time stamped appropriate does that make sense

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I might say something in an episode you go Wait a minute what that was a you know Two weeks ago or something because we're pre recording this week for a couple episodes dropping in October But have some good guests coming up, too

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So look forward to that. So guys next voice show here is gonna be next to voice It's gonna be me and Jason talking about celebrating

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Halloween. Here we go. All right, we're rolling Jason Farley Good to have you back on the podcast brother. How you doing? Good to be here

04:40

Having a good time Yeah, so how's everything going for you introduce yourself to the listeners you haven't been on in a couple years

04:48

I don't think so reintroduce yourself to the new listener since then who you are what you're about what your origin story is what you

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Got going on right now Origin story that's a that's a good question that one I'd have to think through but you know,

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Jason Farley. I'm I've been I've done a lot of different things

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From pastor to screenwriter to comedy writer to working in classical

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Christian education film distribution all sorts of things so right now

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I'm working with lore TV and Concordas education services working at two different spots with the two things.

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I love the most which are movies and television and classical education, so I'm blessed to get to do a bunch of things so Yeah We need solid brothers in the

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Lord working in entertainment and education because the left has totally attacked those two And I think dominate them in the last 50 60 years maybe going back farther than that wouldn't you say?

05:49

absolutely if they've they've dominated and they've dominated because of our retreat not because they have been super smart and figured it all out and Overcome everything with the the church just retreated

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From certain things and when we retreat it leaves a void that gives the left an opportunity to take over You are so right because you look at some of the product that the left puts out and you go

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How is this even a making money be being created see being watched D being supported.

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It's like Artistically, it's just horrible. You know, I had the guys Parker Brown from watch

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Well podcast which is a new podcast and what they do is they have you watch a movie then they discuss the implications of it I think you'd be a great guest on that.

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I should hook you up. They go in depth They go in depth on it. Like what's the character of God here?

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What's the motivation of the characters? What's the you know underlying principles and we both agreed same thing

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It's just complete garbage what the left is putting out in the way of all types of art And the ones that do break through guess what?

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Holy cow. They have a very declined sense of justice righteousness evil You know what?

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I mean justice prevailing over even you're like, oh people still like that even the secularists understand the reality in which

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God is Created we live those things are true and beautiful, you know Yep reality has when when you make art that reflects reality back to people they it resonates and so even when

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Because the principles of storytelling are out there and available. So even when You know somebody that doesn't know the

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Lord is using them they end up telling you can end up telling a really great story it's just That still serves the audience

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No, absolutely and we look at we could sit here and talk about that for an hour because that's very interesting when I talked about that stuff we

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Came here for something else kind of the way of art a little bit. No, that's not really good segue We'll say it is we're talking about Halloween I've had so many people reach out to me and go

07:48

Greg over the last four and a half years in the podcast You've kind of just interjected your thoughts a little bit, but really haven't expanded on and about Halloween I'm someone who doesn't celebrate

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Halloween now. I will have about 150 people over here on well usually on Reformation Day We do a do a party this year.

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I'll be at fight left feast for Reformation Day So we're doing it a week early, but we've chosen to celebrate that way and you know,

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I I don't it's crazy because what's not crazy? But it's it's tough because if you say that and we don't we choose not to celebrate

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Halloween or trunk or treat I get put into a category of like you're this crazy legalist you hate

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Christians who do and it's like well, no, I don't I really look at it as a Christian conscious choice I've just been convicted that for me.

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It's probably not the best for me my family and I have some reasons I wanted to have you on because I think

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I don't know what your personal belief is But I think you're gonna kind of be maybe take the other side of that.

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Well first, let's start with that what is your personal belief and celebrating Halloween as a Christian and even churches using it as an outreach ministry like what your personal and then

08:50

Maybe go into why how you could see someone defending that point of view of being able to celebrate that. Yeah Yeah, cuz

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I'm I'm pro Halloween. I'll take the pro Halloween I Believe that it is a

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Christian holiday in its origin and There's an you know in the same way that they're that Non -christians try to co -op

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Christmas and kind of give it its own Meaning a meaning apart from Christ. I think the same sort of thing has been done to Halloween It's just been a little bit more successful in the last few years than Christmas but that Halloween is actually in origin and Is objectively a

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Christian holiday? Mmm, so let's talk about origin because I've seen a lot of stuff over the years where you you know

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People say well, we're divided was it was it pagan? Was it Christian? We don't really know You can be argued either way.

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My belief of it is when I look at it. I kind of see we have some good good evidence for You know around that time a

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Celtic festival a couple thousand years ago. There was all kinds of celebrations going on I don't know if we can connect those two.

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I'll give you that There was a whole lot of seasonal change celebrations going on in the pagan right Rome had theirs when they took over the

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Celtics added a few But at the same time then I see a shift in Pope Gregory the third and making it all

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Saints Day and Halloween start and Hollows Eve start to take shape. So where do you kind of lay on the short history of Hollows Eve, which is now

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Halloween? Yeah, so so I believe that 19th century romantics Made up Celtic holidays in order to try to connect them to Halloween because they wanted

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Halloween without Jesus so they did the same thing with with trying to connect

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Christmas to Pagan holidays. They did the same thing with trying to connect

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Easter to pagan holidays, but there actually isn't historical Evidence.

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Okay. We don't really know much about the Druids if in terms of getting actually direct

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Evidence for what they are. We've got at we've got some Christians that mentioned the Druids and say things about the

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Druids But we don't really know much about what they did what you know what they believed That sort of thing.

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So yeah so the but in the in the 19th century the

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Romantic movements That we're trying to Connect especially the

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German romantics. We're trying to reconnect to some sort of mythic pagan past and one of the things that they did was try to find the secret origins of Christian holidays that Christians had taken over and that so that they could keep the holidays keep but Without Jesus, so I think that's actually where all of those arguments

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Originate is really you start to get them in the the late Romantic movement

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Okay so here's the thing that I always fight and I think most critical thinkers will fight first of all you have to be willing to Concede a point if if it's not if it's not going to be

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What's the word I'm looking for consistent across all because in my early 20s Lord saved me

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I start getting into all kinds of reading and studying the Bible and all the stuff and what do I go to man? I go to write towards Catholicism is straight from the pit of hell and also man all these traditions

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We have a right from pagans anyway, and we just copied them right and my kind of immature right just zeal cage stage

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Then you realize for Chris for Christmas that that's that's a lie Just like I said, I will concede pagan

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You know Halloween being connected to paganism because we've been lied to by the pagans that hey No, this was really ours and you guys just copied it

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If you you really look into that probably my late 20s I changed my tune and said oh I was just kind of wanting to believe in something because it fit my narrative for that time that I could start calling out against Religion and and you know all these things that's wrong with the church and stuff like that So I will that would be my first concession is saying

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I'm not a hundred percent Sold on that if I want to be consistent between Christmas and Halloween, I would say that I would say you can't say that some random seasonal

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Celebration which they had many of them to many pagan gods is Directly related to why we celebrate

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Halloween. So with that being said then my next question is I go okay, so when did it start in history start becoming a celebration within the

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Christian tradition and I would say where do you think we start saying not the modern

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Halloween because that's only been we'll get on if it's only been Around 50 years maybe 1920s 1930s when we saw it commercialized how it is now

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But when did we when did we first start seeing in the church a Hallow's Eve and that 31st and the first kind of becoming?

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important to Christians Yeah, so Pope Gregory In the 800s the

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Pope Gregory of the 800s is the one who I can't remember. Yeah, which number might be the third starts putting forward or he puts forward all

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Saints Day as a celebration of The martyrs and the the so we when you start getting to a point where martyrs aren't

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It martyrdom isn't really happening anymore Because the martyrs won right you we we look back at somebody like polycarp and nobody actually remembers the name of the

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Incredibly powerful Roman governor who killed him, but everybody remembers the name of polycarp, right?

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Polycarp won, you know, the martyrs won the martyrs overcame the the people that were opposing the church and so Pope Gregory puts forward a

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Celebration saying let's celebrate the way that the martyrs over came have overcome the devil's kingdom

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That have overcome the rule of the devil Through self -sacrifice, right? So it so it's a celebration of the the the reality that You like Romans 16 says that God will soon crush

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Satan underneath your feet through it that that the church's feet are Our devil crushing feet and the way that it's gone forward when when we come in contact with persecutors

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We overcome by laying down our lives and so that was the original intention as a celebration that it was the celebration of the overcoming of the works of the devil by means of martyrdom and If you look at calendars or at clocks really you have

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In the the Old Testament you start at the evening when you're counting the day in the

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Roman Empire you started at midnight and so what you ended up with was when you had medieval or I mean a

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Middle Eastern Christians and Roman Empire Christians start intertwining intermarrying

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The when do you start the celebration of a festival? Debate begins whether it's the morning of or the evening of when does the day start?

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So what they started doing basically to compromise was say well, we'll just stretch our celebration to 36 hours, right which

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I think Makes complete reasonable sense. We'll just celebrate twice. And so you start getting

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Christmas Eve and Christmas you start getting all hallows Eve and And all hallows day

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Hallow meaning st. Holy ones. So all hallows Eve is the beginning of the celebration of all

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Saints Day Which is the celebration of the overcoming of death by death the overcoming of death by self -sacrifice and and that Celebrating kind of that principle.

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So all all hallows Eve is the beginning of the celebration of all Saints Day We've sort of set we end up separating it out as its own thing

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October 31st because Just in the modern world. We don't have that same, you know

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Sun down is the beginning of the next day you still if you if you see if you have

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Jewish friends, you know You'll see that they still reckon time that way in there in their religious calendar

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So it is around a little bit but in the West for the most part midnight is when the next day starts

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Yeah. All right. So where I'm at my headspace and you tell me what you think of this I kind of take the pagan argument nice go.

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Okay could be couldn't be I think it's a cheap lazy argument That really doesn't have a whole lot of Validity so I kind of look at it and I go

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Okay, the the real first time we see prominence of the date October 31st

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You and November 1st, even being prevalent is 734 under Pope Gregory the third So then my mind goes to okay.

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So in that generation or even the next few hundred years How is that celebrated and how was that viewed?

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How was that day viewed and obviously it's not what we're doing today I think it's right totally different.

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But even then I have some conflicting Reports there you will have. Oh, well some people dressed up And you know to ward off spirits it was like a mock almost the spirits that couldn't touched

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Christ's anointed and things like that and what I've come to is it's kind of convoluted because it crosses so many different cultures

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Even when you get into like 16 1700s as people coming over to America You had the

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Scottish and the Irish and all these different kind of customs around that time and that date being brought together

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And it kind of made this convoluted thing. And I think that's kind of how Christianity or Christmas is even to this day.

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We have you know, ten different cultures going on, you know Yeah we still Bob for apples on the 31st which some would say goes back to the

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Romans and the goddess of the fruit tree that Was introduced after Rome kind of Christian eyes and right there's an argument there and you go.

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Oh, there's all this stuff So I I look at it and go we are we are a cross cultural celebration now in 2024

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But at you know, 700s 800s into the first Of the 10th century.

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What did that look like? For those who celebrated on the 31st?

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Yeah, so yeah I like the way the comparison to Christmas because when you look at Santa Claus, for example

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Santa Claus is actually the mashing together of multiple traditions when all of these

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Europeans that spoke different languages all land in America and Meet each other at church and start intermarrying and and and one of the things that I love about the impulse of the church

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Throughout history is to just take all of it every time so you'd say oh they do this they do that They do this and and Christians have gone.

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Oh great. We can do all that right? We can just kind of put it all together That impulse is is

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I think a converting impulse that the church has always brought with it but it doesn't just think in terms of that it always thinks in terms of Getting hold of everything and submitting it to Christ.

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How do we convert everything that we run into that? There's not kind of a Religious sphere over here where religious stuff happens, but it's always saying well how do we how do we take whatever we find and Convert it to Christ and put it through the fire of the gospel and see and find find what lasts

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And so things like trick -or -treating you actually have a couple of different traditions and trick -or -treating that end up coming together and Becoming what we think of as trick -or -treating because you had

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The the the same way that there was that we a Christmas You know a group of people might travel around and sing house -to -house that was something that you did at All Saints Day was the singing house -to -house and part of that tradition was you know, if you would you would sing house -to -house and then they would give you the

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Singers a small cake or a cupcake At each house and so they would gather up sweets as they went.

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So that was one tradition that happened throughout Europe and then You had there was there was one other aspect that that became trick -or -treating that That had to do with the poor so the the poor

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One of the ways that that you was always giving and it was so the poor were given

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We're told to go house -to -house for alms Durant on All Saints Day.

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It was so one of the ways that you Worshipped or set aside the day was by making making sweets making cakes making candies for the poor and they would go house -to -house and and you would pass it out as part of the just the the realization that we're all beggars and and and so you kind of on All Saints Day the beggar becomes the one who gets the best right that that's part of the the tradition of All Saints Day and And Yeah, well those sorts of traditions slowly morph into Trick -or -treating and and the other thing that we forget is they used to dress up for a lot of the holidays in the

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Middle Ages and we only dress up for one but there was a lot of costume

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Dress up, you know that sort of thing in the Middle Ages and we do a lot less than they did

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So it looks like a strange thing when you only do it on one day versus when you have lots of Dress up opportunities in the

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Middle Ages. So you're saying they were into cosplay in 800 AD, huh? Cosplay is is one of the most medieval

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Okay Okay, so so let's get to the question. We did a little bit of the history

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I mean, you know just expand on that then we see, you know The funny thing was I was talking to someone once and I said, well, you know

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I would like to celebrate Halloween how the Reformers celebrated Halloween. I mean Luther celebrated Halloween He went and nailed the 95 theses to the door, right?

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He knew All Saints Day was gonna be a high traffic day for the church and you know And they kind of looked at me and went that's a weird way to frame it

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But in my mind I go that's kind of what he was doing I bet you there was something there like we got this great holiday coming up that we celebrate boom

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I'm gonna put them there, right? So I so in my mind I go why can't we celebrate Halloween in that way?

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That's kind of where I'm coming from. I don't want to mimic the world. I don't want appearances of evil. I don't want to Bow to the culture

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And in my mind, I think it's lazy of the Christian that goes. Ah, it's just candy Come on They're dressing up as goofy ghosts and princesses and Disney princesses

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And then of course I have to go out on my tirade about Disney to a parent which you know That's 20 minutes but my point is is

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I'm not necessarily going to the Bible and saying you cannot celebrate Halloween because the

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Bible says it right here, right? That's I would never say that. I think that would be really a little too Legalistic and religious in the negative connotation of religious

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But my my so let's get to the question that everyone listening wants to know is two questions

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One is it biblically permissible for a Christian to celebrate Halloween? And when I say that in the context of trick -or -treating dressing up on the 31st going door -to -door.

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Hey neighbor How you doing and in getting candy and then to? What about church is celebrating it in the way of like trunk or treat or having some type of event for mission outreach or whatever?

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They say those two questions. Where do you land on that? yeah, so I Think I mean,

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I think it's biblically permissible to join in with your neighbors and you know There would be things that I would say.

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Well, don't do that or don't do that. You know the You know

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There are there would be costumes that I would say we that's a that's not a the way a

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Christian should dress Costume wise right? There's some there's I think wisdom issues within there and then you know the directing of your children's

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Imagination in In the costuming you that sort of thing. Those are things that I think that a

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Christian parent should be Attentive to and trying to use in a purposeful way to help their kids understand who they are in Christ that sort of thing

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But I think it's it's permissible to join in with your neighbors and be a part of the festivities

25:49

You know one of the things That that I always did I don't have any kids young enough to trick -or -treat anymore

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But one of the things that that I always did was got a couple of flasks and filled them with with whiskey and rum and And then and brought a little stack of cups and then any dad

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I saw coming past would say hey Can I fill you up right? Can I fill you up some and as a and it was a great opportunity to meet neighbors and you know get to know everybody in the neighborhood and because there's

26:22

You the the dads that are out walking their kids door -to -door are

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They're your neighbors. There's not very many opportunities where you're all out in the street together, right? So there's there's some great opportunities

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I think on the family side as well to think of it in terms of how do I get to know my neighbors?

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how do I you know get out there and then you know be the the just the the the general

26:53

Joy and picture of You know the the the smallest and youngest and the the least deserving of us

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Getting the the best door -to -door I mean, that's that's a picture of the gospel that I think we should be able to just rejoice in and enjoy, you know

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Hey, can I have some candy? Please I didn't do anything for it. It was like, oh that reminds me of my salvation

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What a great what a great moment so I think for families it's biblically permissible in my mind

27:27

The and then I think churches do have an opportunity But one of the things that we have done is we've separated the church calendar from worship and I think that's actually our biggest opportunity as a church is to try to restore the

27:43

Worship services that were attached to all of these different holidays I mean,

27:49

I've seen now You know, I there was a church I was camera moves

27:54

It was two years ago the canceled church on a Sunday because Christmas fell on a Sunday and Christmas is for family time

28:04

But you go Okay with the the reason that all Saints Day has been detached in the mind of the culture

28:12

It's not because the pagans did some Incredible End -run around it and won it we walked away from it.

28:21

We stopped. Yeah, we stepped back from it We stopped having all Saints Day worship services having having church

28:31

Having church be at the center of the festivals of our culture So I think church or the families have they have biblical

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Permissibility to do something like that. I think the church ought to be actually trying to recover its historic

28:49

Calendar that walks that walks you through the gospel that it memorializes the gospel in time year year after year after year the the

29:02

Memorializes that the life and work of Christ and the life and work of the church Through the power of the

29:08

Holy Spirit, I think we've walked away from the church calendar and that's the reason that Halloween has been now

29:17

I think I think the best argument against Halloween is the fact that they that they cut down the bronze

29:26

The the bronze pole that Moses put up When they started misusing it, right that bronze pole

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Jesus says that points to me right that that bronze pole points to me and it's still pointed to him and they still cut it

29:40

Down when they misused it. I think that's the best argument against Celebrating Halloween is something can be good in origin and be currently being misused and it's yes

29:53

And so you decide I'm not gonna be a part of it or I'm because it's being misused I think that's fine.

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So I think if that's how a family's thinking about it I think you're well within your Christian freedom to not celebrate

30:05

Halloween and to make for that sort of reason But I do think that the church ought to be

30:13

Actively trying to win back the calendar Okay, so this is just irritating because we are agreeing much more than I thought we would be

30:22

I think we're just coming from it from two different angles I agree with everything you say there and let me just tell you where I'm at So when

30:29

I talk to a Christian that either celebrates Halloween or does trunk -or -treat or what part of their church, whatever I just say

30:34

I get frustrated because there's a difference between Restore and redeem in my mind and then two

30:40

I look at it in Context of where we are in the last 50 or 60 years. Like you just said it's been supplanted.

30:46

You also mentioned Hey, look at we should be restoring Hollows Eve and I think we're trying to do a little too much redeeming and I think there's a difference there

30:55

I'm saying restoring it to its original intent and meaning and things like that when I talk to most

31:00

Christians and I don't want to Generalize here, but when I talk to most believers, especially in the Evangelical Church Western Christianity in general

31:07

Across multiple states. It's it's almost like a laziness. It's like well, it's just it's fun

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It's not really hurting anything, right? And when I talk to churches and leaders and look at I love my pastors.

31:18

I love my elders I love my church. I'm a member there. We will do a trunk -or -treat event My family's not going and I'm fine with that We'll be doing other things.

31:27

That's fine But my point is is I look at it like this Jason and you tell me if this makes sense.

31:33

I look at it as Halloween has been co -opted. It has been taken. It has a different meaning we have, you know,

31:40

I just watched I don't know She's a fourth generation witch on YouTube and she's like, oh, I'm so happy for Halloween and this is what it really means

31:46

All that crap. Yeah, that's their day of celebration. We're out dressing up and in trick -or -treating and all these things.

31:52

Yes It's all these different things coming together traditions My point is is why secede to the secular culture anymore as a church or as an individual?

32:00

I want to totally restore Hallows Eve I love the idea of honoring those who like you said earlier in the episode came before us and died and and basically won by being martyred and I and I look at it and I'm kind of this way in politics if I if I Contribute to that and slip into those and go.

32:17

Well, it's not really harming anyone. It's it is permissible It's not like, you know, God's up you're going to hell because you dressed up as you know,

32:24

Princess whoever I Say why is the church and why are the individuals kind of bowing to that culture going?

32:32

Well, it's just one more thing that we can do and kind of blend in and it loses some of our set -apartness

32:37

Some of our holiness some of our hold on a minute if we got the majority of churches to go

32:42

No, we're going to worship on Hallows Eve into the first of November. We're going to honor

32:48

God through how he honored martyrs in those things and really connected it and Reflected it to Christ and the martyrs and all that.

32:56

I would be totally on board That's one of the reasons why I do Reformation Day because I feel that's more honorable for me at this point

33:03

Than it is for my kids dressing up and going to get candy. And here's what I would say to Christians very quickly They go.

33:09

Ah, they get some candy They can dress my kids can dress up and get candy any day of the year They want they want to go get a

33:15

Buzz Lightyear costume and I throw some Snickers at them We limit their sugar intake anyway, but point being

33:20

I'll do that any day of the year But on the day that the world says this is the day we celebrate evil We or at least the secular's do now we've discussed where the past is and what what it really means and everything

33:31

But the overwhelming majority idea of the secular Chris or the secular world in America is hey

33:38

We get to be a little naughty. We get to be a little slutty. We get to be dress up as evil We get to celebrate horror films slasher films.

33:44

I mean, it's all really gotten very dark I say I'm abstaining from that because I want to totally restore and redeem

33:51

Hollows Eve and I feel by contributing to that I'm going that's just one more Christian kind of given in and going Hey, what's what's the big deal?

33:58

It has some Christian roots. It's not right So maybe I'm an extremist on that but that's what I would tell to a

34:03

Christian who does celebrate it I would say think about that Christian Can we be holy and set apart and by our own virtue of being stubborn on this issue?

34:12

Maybe in 20 30 40 years our children will be going look at those weirdos that put masks on Instead of going to church having a feast and worshiping

34:21

God for a day of Martyrs and all that does that make sense? It does yeah, and I think as long as you aren't setting it up such that your kids are

34:33

Wishing they were a part of that Right if if your kids are sitting there saying man

34:39

I wish I got to be a part of that that looks way better than whatever it is We do right then.

34:45

I think I think I don't have any problem with with what it is. You said

34:50

I Just think we should be out celebrating them if we're going to abstain it in a set -apart way, right?

34:58

Whatever it is for you guys if you're having a Reformation Day Feast then it should be so much better that everybody is saying man

35:08

They're missing out by missing this right that that we want our kids always to be saying

35:15

Man, I wish I wish everybody got to have what I get right by being by being raised in a

35:21

Christian home and I think that is that's something that that I do think that a lot of the

35:30

Abstain and I'm not and this isn't an accusation against you, but there's things I've seen of the abstain from Halloween crowd has a way of Making it the worst night of the year because everybody else gets something.

35:44

I don't And and and I don't think that's necessary. I think you can you know,

35:50

I have been at churches that threw great Reformation Day parties on that night and and Nobody ever felt like I'm missing out because I don't get to do

36:00

Halloween The and and I think we have the freedom To to do that sort of thing

36:09

Institutionally, I think the church has a They they're not free to not transform the calendar

36:18

The church as an institution needs to have its institutional calendar Actually being transformed and submitted to Christ and you can't do that by not doing stuff

36:30

You can only do that by doing things right how to so the church needs to be saying

36:38

That we our job as an institution is to use whatever calendar events are coming up To submit time to Christ, you know, how do how do we do that as an institution?

36:50

And I think not doing something in place of Not I guess not doing things purposefully calendar wise

37:00

Doesn't do that. I mean, I think families have as an as institutions.

37:05

They've got you know freedom They're they're under all kinds of different calendars

37:12

You know, they're under the church calendar. They're under the federal calendar, you know, the state calendar that The all of the different calendars and they have freedom to partake or not partake as long as they're

37:26

Doing it on purpose to glorify the Lord. That's a good point. So let me ask you this.

37:32

So what would your ideal? Celebration be as a believer on October 31st, what would it look like to you the honor

37:43

Christ to honor? The church to honor each other believers and be a witness to an unbelieving world

37:50

Would it look like how it is now or would it be restored to something different? What do you think it would look like to you?

37:56

Yeah. Well, I think the First off I think I would love All Hallows Day right to All Saints Day to actually have to restore a worship service of some sort

38:11

You know worship service that hat or a memorial service Maybe it may be not maybe not unless it's on a

38:18

Sunday. Maybe not do the Lord's Supper, but have a memorial service of some sort where we sing

38:27

Older hymns, maybe the normal the hymns that we don't sing but that remote, you know that are from You know, like let's say we're gonna pick

38:35

The martyrs of France right was we sing French hymns We tell stories of the overcoming of France by the martyrs, you know the in Gaul and and maybe you'll read a portion from a

38:53

Sermon translated from a preacher of the that time period right? So you pick a pick pick a time period and do something

39:00

To remember. Hey, this is how France was won or maybe go to Boniface You know He was a one of the martyr that and and sing some

39:08

German hymns and and then have a German feast something like that so something purposefully memorializing the way that that fills our imaginations with the stories of how

39:19

God has overcome An unbelieving area by Martyrdom so and then back from that into how do you make the day before into?

39:32

part of that festival how and You know, I don't think we would need to get rid of trick -or -treating

39:39

I think trick -or -treating is just fine. If you surround it with a culture that isn't

39:45

Love it isn't embracing death, right? So with I think the big problem

39:52

That comes out is not caused by Halloween But that it comes out on Halloween is that we do have a culture that loves death

39:59

And so that I think the transformation of that culture into a culture that loves life

40:05

Gift -giving is still gift -giving dressing up you hanging spending time with our in our

40:12

Neighborhoods, you know in a in a broader in our broader community. All of those things are really good things

40:19

That I think could be transformed in really fun ways into part of the preparation for the kind of Memorial service that you would have on an

40:30

All Saints Day. I I would love it for for it to be a National holiday, you know that everybody a bank holiday that has taken off so that we can really remember

40:42

And memorialize the way God's done things throughout history I also, you know

40:48

I think the you've got Psalm 2 where the devil and his schemes are laughed at you've got

40:54

Colossians Where the devil is paraded through the streets? In in mockery.

41:01

I think that there is room for that sort of thing I don't think we've we're doing it in the right sort of way right now

41:08

I don't know exactly how to do it But we know that Christ marches the devil through the streets that God the

41:14

Father sits in the heavens and laughs at the devil's schemes Where he thinks he's overcoming but he's being overcome

41:20

He he's digging a pit for Christ and he falls in it himself. I think there's a way to I Think that's something that is worth figuring out how to memorialize better And you know things like Dia de los

41:37

Muertos, I think There are problems with it, but it does it is meant as a memorial that we all die

41:48

And I think that's something that as Americans we shove away We don't want to ever be reminded of that.

41:55

We are all headed towards death And and that just leaves us unprepared when we get death

42:00

So I I think that there would be a way to do that. I haven't figured that out I've put some thought into it, but I haven't figured out a good way to do it

42:08

I think that's a good way To work into the cultural memorials in the calendar of a reminder a yearly reminder

42:16

Don't forget to prepare to die. Don't forget. Don't forget. You're always preparing for death. I think that's something that's missing in it in Broad American culture completely, you know, we we're born in hospitals

42:29

We die in hospitals and we are it and it's separated from our life We a lot of people don't even do

42:36

Funerals anymore just to avoid having to be faced with death So, yeah, and I don't know how to do that But I would like I would like I think that's the right way to work right place to work it in Is in discussions of the lack of fear of death that we learn from the martyrs that have gone before us so I don't know was that too ambiguous

42:59

No, no because I'm tracking with that and we're very quickly I would say there's a difference between Celebrating death and honoring the dead, right?

43:07

I think the celebration of death and despise and all that in the secular sense is very different than you know

43:13

Even like you were saying day of the dead and things like that in other cultures I'm very interested in those things because most of the time and it's been co -opted

43:20

But those originated in giving honor to those who passed before us and I think that's a great thing to do those who aren't looking

43:26

Back and understanding what people gave up and did and standing on the shoulders of Giants and all that But I would have this follow -up question.

43:33

So I'm tracking with you and I agree with you. Let's restore it Let's do something on the first. Let's figure out we can lead into festivities.

43:39

I'm all about neighborhood stuff I love all my fall festivals and garage sale days and we have a downtown temperance day

43:46

It's called where we all get you know, and you meet neighbors and all that stuff. So if that's the ultimate goal how does celebrating

43:54

Halloween as The secular world does now help that goal if you're a

44:00

Christian and you say I want to ultimately restore that how to say Hey, I'm gonna go dress up and go door -to -door and you know and be lumped in with this culture of death

44:09

As you said, how does that help? Wouldn't it be better to abstain and go? No, we're gonna build something different. Well, I think the the lumped in is the is the thing that we got to think about because If if you don't put the yeast in with the lump

44:27

The lump never rises, right? So you can't you can't be a transformative influence in retreat now there there are times when you have to retreat to become the transformative influence before you rejoin, right

44:43

But chrysostom reminds us that yeast can't transform the loaf from a distance That unless we are a part of our culture

44:53

Then we won't have a transformative effect and the spirit is much more powerful than then

45:00

Anything we're going to run into right greater is he who is in us than he who is in the world So I do think now now that might not it might there there might be other more effective ways to think about joining neighbors

45:13

But I think we should be thinking. How do we join our neighbors? How do we join together with our neighbors in a transformative way and maybe

45:20

Halloween isn't isn't gonna be the right place For it, you know, maybe it maybe it doesn't end up being the right place to do that Maybe there's a better way to do it

45:30

But I do think thinking in that how do I how do I join together with my neighbors as a transformative influence is?

45:38

What we should be thinking. So if it's You know if it is well,

45:43

I'm gonna be the one who throws the you know, our church is going to be the one who throws the party and Does it in a purposeful way?

45:53

We're gonna be the we're gonna be the place where you know, we will will will do the trunk or treat, you know, it has the sun's going down and Then do us a an

46:05

All Hallows Eve Service in the evening and invite everybody that comes through right? There's lots of ways.

46:11

I think that that maybe you could Yeah Purposefully do that, but I do think that we we aren't a transformative influence in retreat and as a general principle, so and that I didn't

46:28

I mean I don't think that I would want to bind anyone's conscience that you must be a transformative influence in Halloween on your neighborhood or Right.

46:37

There's there's a wise time to join and a wise time to not join You know as and be set apart, but I I think those are the the right questions to ask

46:48

Yeah, the only pushback I'd give there in my mind. I don't always relate abstaining from something as retreat

46:54

If so, we got to throw out the the influential works of the Puritans I mean we still talk to them about this day and they abstain from an awful lot and not only abstain

47:01

But they said no this is what we need to do instead and that's kind of where my mind is that is You know, and I understand what you're saying abstain and retreat because I remember sometimes as a little kid

47:11

It was like shut off the light. The trick -or -treaters are coming. Let's just do movie night. Are they off the street yet? You're looking and it's like as a little kid you're going what the heck are we doing here?

47:19

Like why are we hiding from kids with masks on it felt very abstain and retreat So I understand that I'm saying my perspective is

47:26

I'm proactively trying to go Okay, I'm abstaining but I want I want to raise awareness for what hollow

47:32

Hallow's Eve is what November 1st is Reformation all those things I had you know, we're in our fifth year of doing

47:37

Reformation It's went from 20 people to 150 people in those four years and I have people that show up and go

47:42

Greg I'm not even reformed I think you Calvinist a little weird, but I love the fact that we're taught that you have 15 you sing three hymns

47:49

We do 15 minutes on church history and then we eat like crazy for like five hours and play volleyball and cornhole and you know,

47:56

Basketball and visit it on the deck and you know, we have a chili cook -off this year. There's gonna be awards given out

48:01

It's like they were like we're just glad that it feels like we're celebrating something That that is at least

48:07

Christ like or Christian like I went Yeah, that was kind of my goal because once again, I'm not judging anyone who does celebrate it but in my mind

48:15

I can't wrap my mind around it because it feels like I'm succeeding something to secularism to where I could just go

48:20

No, man, it's maybe it's a little bit of my pride to or stubbornness like I'm gonna do my own thing I'll show that yeah,

48:27

I mean like I think we all need a little bit of that in us in check, you know Submitted to Christ. Yeah You that's where I'm gonna come from that means that means you are actually celebrating

48:37

Halloween though, you're just sure because because It's a celebration of the martyrs of the faith and the faithful that have gone before right?

48:47

That's what so Reformation Day It makes complete sense as a part of the celebration, you know of of all

48:54

Saints Day I I don't think that's I want to celebrate Halloween. I want us to celebrate it our way the way

49:00

Exactly we're always getting ripped off from the secular and the pagan cultures and we just take it as Christians Especially in Western Christian churches roll over.

49:09

Oh, you can have TV. You can have entertainment. You can have Paintings you can have sculpture. Yeah, you can have music too.

49:15

Oh, you can have literature. You can have theater. You can have Halloween Oh, yeah Christmas, I guess was paid you can have and it's like what what are you talking about?

49:23

All these things are for the glory of God, right? I'm they don't preach into the choir here, but it gets me so worked up, dude

49:29

We have no backbone no spine no historical context to stand on We don't know what we're doing left from right and it's like,

49:36

I don't know I get worked up and go Let's let's restore it redeem it just kind of like what we're talking about But once again, if someone wants to celebrate that I'm not going a you know, you're going to hell

49:48

You're breaking a tenth one of the Ten Commandments. No, I'm not saying that I'm trying to convince people Let's let's take it back

49:54

Yeah, let's take it back from what it's been the last 50 years because it wasn't even this in the early 19 early 20th century

50:01

It was still kind of family -oriented Like you were saying it was a lot of like harvest stuff and and neighbors getting together.

50:08

I'm okay with that I don't honestly there's people on this podcast that are gonna disagree with me I love the idea you've given the shots out and they go

50:16

How can you not celebrate Halloween, but you're giving booze out to the neighbors Look at all I'm saying is they're gonna be going at Jason guy.

50:21

What's he all about you're going? Hey come over for dinner next week and we'll talk about it And now you've got your neighbor in your house cooking him a meal laying

50:27

Christ on him, right? Well that and what my wife and I have learned is there's very few doors.

50:34

You can't open with whiskey and chocolate right, so so we and and we we have

50:41

You just made that a kind of a Principle of how do we how do we get to know our neighbors?

50:48

You know if if you show up if your neighbor sitting on the front porch and you show up with two glasses and a bottle of whiskey

50:55

You know, we then you're gonna you're gonna get a long opportunity to talk to him now

51:00

You know that might not be some that might be not not be somebody else's mentality or the

51:07

The tools they use might be different, but we should always be thinking. How do I?

51:13

How do I advance towards My neighbors with the good news of Christ.

51:18

Yeah, I would also say too for those listening I'm talking about that, you know the whiskey and the chocolate but also to when

51:24

I have neighbors over It's it's it with a temperance and within moderation, right? I'm not serving anyone to get staggered down drunk if they're an unbeliever

51:32

I'm more than happen to have an unbeliever in my house and we're talking and we're Gathering and they have a beer with dinner or glass of wine

51:39

You know, we got to get some of this legalism and this kind of like oh my gosh How could you do look at and mean you believe the same on this?

51:47

I just want to clear that up for listeners Like if someone's in my sometimes it doesn't even it doesn't even come up or I'll just say no

51:53

We don't have any or whatever. It's not like I'm bringing people over all the time just to drink, right? That's not the focus of it

52:00

It's usually over my delicious smoked brisket that I make and fresh -cut fries that I deep -fry

52:05

If anyone will come over for those and my wife makes a killer coleslaw, so, you know

52:10

That's what we're doing with our neighbors. In fact, we have our neighbors coming over next week for that But um, yeah, so we're kind of getting off of course here, but you got me talking about food now.

52:19

I'm hungry We're at about our limit here. So I kind of give me a final word on this

52:25

If you have they've sat through this they've listened to it. They go. Yep I can kind of see the idea of like you said, it's very communal.

52:32

It's permissible. You want to see it restored? I want to see it restored. Maybe we're just saying we're taking different routes to get there

52:38

But what are your final thoughts on that any listener that's waffling on this one way or another celebrate don't celebrate church celebrate don't celebrate

52:46

Yeah I mean, I think the biggest thing is that fear isn't our motivation in any of these things and The that is the the

52:55

I think that is the thing that is celebrated fundamentally the thing that is

53:02

That the the way the world celebrates Halloween is they try to move towards their fear because they're trying they're trying to find a way to overcome the fear of death and That isn't our motivation in anything that we do we because the fear of death has been destroyed by the resurrection and so now death has been transformed into a tool of advancement of the kingdom of Christ throughout history, so And whatever it is that we decide to do we shouldn't do it in fear

53:36

We should do it because we love the Lord and we're trying to figure out How do we as a family and as a church and individually put off?

53:44

the works of the flesh and put on Christ and and so whatever we do, that's the the goal and you know, everybody is

53:53

We're all these, you know ex -pagans trying to figure out how to be Christians. And so I Think when we approach one another with the attitude that says well, how are you trying to serve the

54:06

Lord in this situation? we actually will learn from each other a lot of things and get better at it and and also we can

54:14

Change our position at different times in our lives without fear because we're all trying to figure out figure out how to Serve the

54:24

Lord with Wherever we're at in this particular moment Oh well said brother so Jason tell everyone where they can find you where you're at on social media so they can get these wisdoms of Nuggets of wisdom daily from Jason on like Twitter X and Facebook and Instagram wherever yet throw them out there and I'll make sure

54:42

Twitter at Jason Farley's with an S on the end and then

54:47

Substack I have a daily podcast called the mission of the God for the family the mission of God for the family

54:54

Where it's 10 to 15 minutes to encourage and under how to what God Has for the family to do so Doing that at the substack

55:04

Jason Farley's substack. All right, man. We'll link that all up guys So if you're listening or watching it'll be linked right below as always feel free to send us a text

55:13

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