Equip 2024: Our Blessed and Boundless God #6 - Q&A | Steve Meister and Kofi Adu-Boahen

The Difference Between God’s Nature, Character, and Attributes

Well our father, thank you so much for all that we have been learning about you this weekend. You are blessed boundless. God pray now that as we Ask some questions and think through all that we've heard Pray that your spirit would be at work using this time as he has the rest of the time.

Ask it in Jesus name of a hissing. All right. First question I've got here says is there a difference between God's nature Character and attributes.

Yes Yes.

So we have to remember with with all of these terms we're actually taking. Let me actually even go back to this is a good illustration of why classically Christians have said philosophy is a handmaiden to theology.

Because all of these terms actually don't come out of the Bible itself. They come. There are terms that were taken from the from human discourse and to try to apply.

To.

Describe who God is. So for example being or nature essay God says he is who he is. How do you describe that. So we've said we've said well that describes God's being because. To be because I am is just a form of the to be verb.

So God's being. Or his nature. We think of character and we think of personal characteristics or virtues and then attributes are. We talked a little bit about in during this first time first session today.

Refer to what we ascribe the devote to the divine essence. They're not things in God. They are. Our description of who God is as he's revealed himself in his works and his word so each of these is in one sense Different in terms of how we conceive of and how we describe God because we are finite creatures.

In another sense, the answer would be. So the answer could be. No, they're not different in the sense that all that we're saying of God is God and so God is. God is not as we talked about in the first session again.

Unlike us as creatures who are composed we can lose love and kindness and we're still ourselves. I'm still Steve. I'm still a man. I'm still a human whether I'm a Rude, you know belligerent jerk or whether I'm a loving kind person.

My attributes can vary widely, but I've still have the same nature. I'm still the same person. Versus whereas God we're not talking about accidents or or attributes that God loses or characteristics that he loses.

We're talking about who he is. But we have to do it variously because we can't comprehend a single eternal essence. And so With that in mind when we talk about God's nature or his being we're talking about who he is.

Absolutely God in himself. God apart from creation. Sometimes the the fancy Latin phrase for that is God at intra is God in himself. Versus God at extra that is God as he works and acts in his creation.

I'm including the act of creation redemption and providence so Those are those are Labels we use to describe they all have varying distinctions behind them. God's character. We typically will use to refer to the Moral attributes of God or the that God reflects in goodness holiness.

Mercy love and then the attributes again are what we ascribe to God and again. It's an important sense that God does not have attributes. God is his attributes. So God's not a compilation of things. But we have to describe God variously as Gregory Panagia said because we can't breathe in the whole air ourselves.

So we have to sketch him by his various attributes. So that's nature character and attributes we can you want to push on that anymore.

No, I think that's a pretty helpful summary of the decisions there. So yeah, yeah nice easy one to start us off. Sure. All right. Next question. We've got here a Little bit of a deviation from our topic, but I think still can get some helpful answers.

The God of the Bible and the God of the Quran

What's the difference between the God of the Bible and the God of Islam essentially the God of the Quran. What would you say are the major differences between the two?

So, I mean the biggest difference of course would be the God and father of our Lord. Jesus Christ.

It's not the God of Muhammad.

And God as he's revealed himself to be triune father son and spirit. And then that is not a law now. There is going to be some superficial similarities. So Allah is sovereign. Allah in the Quran. Allah is simple in a sense of simplicity.

So there are gonna be other things that we could say. Well, hey, there's some points of Commonality and I think those are just reflected on the fact that we're Living in the same creation and we can draw the same deductions from natural revelation.

That is as God's revealed himself through what he's made. But even there though there are some very important Differences that we want to that we would Necessarily correct according to scripture and especially in the context of evangelism evangelizing Muslim friends or neighbors.

The first let's just take God's sovereignty. So Islam has a has a conception of the sovereignty of Allah the sovereignty of God. But it is it is not married to The God we know who's revealed himself in scripture who is loving and who is wise and who is good.

So Allah's sovereignty is very In one sense fickle. I mean you're gonna you may be forgiven or you may not be it's all up to Allah. I mean if you're Muslim, you can't be assured whether Allah is gonna come down in your favor or not.

Yeah, capricious is a very good word. Allah is very capricious. So and and so that the under the Muslim understanding of sovereignty is very Fatalistic it's it's a fatalism. That's a really important reminder for us as Christians that when we say God is absolutely a sovereign.

We don't believe in fatalism. We believe in an all-wise all-good all-loving God who has a purpose and a will and is working all things Toward that will for his glory and our good in Jesus. And so while you know, we would say yes.

Well what everything that happens happens according to his will and we can trust his ultimate purpose. We're not resigning ourselves to faith sort of what will be what will be we're entrusting ourselves to all wise and all holy God.

And his glorious purpose. So that's a very different understanding of sovereignty than the Islamic understanding and of course the biggest difference is that.

God has a son.

The only true God the simple God. And we didn't get into any Trinity stuff because we don't have time that's a whole nother at least six or seven sessions on God's trinity, but God the Father God is God the Father God the Son and God the Spirit.

And of course Muslims reject that out of hand. And they do so because they don't understand analogy that we've talked about and they assume. Well, if God has a son, then he must have you know procreated with someone and and this is beneath God.

And of course we would say well, yeah, of course that's beneath God. That's not what we mean. And that's never what Christians have ever meant about God's trinity. The eternal generation of the Sun is a matter of an eternal origin.

The thus the father communicate the divine essence to the Sun.

Eternally.

Non-temporally non-sequentially non-physically. It's an eternal act. God is the Father begetting the Son and with the Son breathing forth the Spirit. And because that's who God is the Lord. Jesus is not just a prophet.

He's not just another testimony to God. He is God himself. Who's assumed humanity to be our Savior? So of course that is the the the trinity of God is going to be the dividing line between the truth of God and Islam and so that's why we can never have any kind of sometimes Christians Will want to have sort of caricatures of the difference between Christianity is long and say well We're you know, it's it's the same God just different understanding of of this or that and we have a fundamental disjuncture.

We do not worship the same God. We would never want to give that impression to other Christians or certainly to Muslims and assume we have a commonality that we we don't the difference that amount that Ends in Jesus is all significant in our understanding and of course everything to do with redemption.

It's a massive topic, but that's like a short answer. Oh, it definitely is a massive topic. Good job to kind of summarize tell your Muslim friends to read the Gospels because it says in the Quran that they should read the Gospels the in G so so read the in G and You find out that the Gospels present Jesus nothing like the Quran does we have a lot of Muslims in Sacramento.

We were one of the largest places that received Afghan immigrants after After the war and so we have a lot of our church members work with.

Afghan and Iraqi. So before I get to the next written question. I have one actually yeah benefits of having the mic. So We've spoken this weekend pretty much about God as he exists in himself. I know you said we're not talking about the Trinity because we would need a whole other weekend just to handle Trinity issues.

But what are some ways in which we can relate? What we've been thinking about in terms of God in himself to how God works in the Trinity. So to use the complicated terms I had to learn. How does what we've been thinking about relates to the economic Trinity the Trinity as its work.

Versus this God in himself or the ontological Trinity.

Sure.

So I'm not a huge fan of economic ontological. That's a modern. That was gonna be my follow-up question. Yeah, so you know the older older Christians would have talked about God in himself and God in his works.

And because God is triune we can think of the the Trinity and the processions of God internal to God. Versus the missions of God that is God's saving acts that terminate in creation. Particularly the incarnation of God the Son and then the sending of God the Spirit to indwell and empower the church.

So I think in just some just touch points without opening up then the whole of expounding the Trinity. Everything we've said in all of our sessions is true of God the Father God the Son and God the Spirit so as God is the one who is the great I am is Father Son and Spirit so When we say that each person of God is co-equal co-eternal co-glorious.

We're talking about all these attributes so God the Son is impassable. God the Spirit is immutable. Everything that we've said we would say of all of who God is we've basically been describing the Quiddity of God the whatness of God what God is.

Which is different from the trinity of God, which is who God is or how God is. So we'll use language when we talk about God's trinity that God subs the mode of his subsistence or the manner in which he exists.

God exists as Father Son and Spirit so his nature is what we've been largely describing and then his Persons or the subsistence is of the Father Son and Spirit is the essence subsisting so we don't want to think of The divine essence that we've been describing as like a fourth thing so don't don't think of the nature of God as You know we've talked about eternal and passable immutable, and then the Father Son and Spirit are like satellites.

Rotating around the nature of God. No God's nature is The Father begetting the Son and with the Son bringing forth the Spirit. That's that's who God is that is his nature. That's how his nature exists.

And then of course it reveals to us. That's revealed to us in full light in the Trinity so. So we're looking at Describing the nature from the question or angle of manner or how it is or or the person's but who?

We've been largely answering the what question in our Sessions this weekend, and then the Trinity answers the the how or the who question if you can put it that way okay?

Oh helpful, okay? I guess I'm gonna ask this for me. Why do you have an issue with the ontology economy language?

Well, it just gives you it gives the impression like there's two trinities. So we start talking about the economic Trinity and the ontological Trinity. I'm like I think it's can just confusing so it's it's historically Christians talked about the Processions internal to God which is the Father begetting the Son with the Son's fighting spirit.

Which brings full life. Then to when we when we say things like? God is blessed. Well. What is the blessedness of God? How is God blessed in himself?

Well.

The blessedness of God is the mutual in being and joy of the Father and the Son and the Spirit of all eternity and. The love of God is the the Father's love for his son. Which is the bond of the Spirit in all eternity.

So we can unpack all of these things and start bringing them into sort of Trinitarian Lustre as we have further revelation and then the missions of God which is the acts of redemption are our extensions as it were of the processions, so When God there's a reason that the Son is incarnate and not the Father.

Because it's fitting for the one begotten of eternally to be the one who assumes human flesh and be begotten as a man. And there's a reason that the Spirit is sent to the church. Not the Father. Even though the Father is spirit also because God is spirit.

But because the one who has been breathed forth between the Father and the Son is now breathed upon. The church you give life and breath to the church by his gifts and graces. So there's a there's a logic at the mind one.

In all that God does in redemption, and it what it really boils down to is we bring it to okay? What's the rub here is that God is revealing himself and all that he does in creation and redemption. God saves us by the Son through the Spirit so that we would know the Father Son and Spirit.

We would know God. God is revealing himself to us, and so it's a it's a wonderful thing so it's nothing. I mean, it's nothing to go around like publicly correcting people like at a Q &A, but it. But it's it can it can create confusing.

You know like if we're talking two different Trinities and and doesn't help us see I think the unity of the being and work of God if that makes sense.

No, I'm helpful again. I was just thinking back to when I was first learning theology. Yeah, seeing those phrases and. There was a moment for a while. I did think are we talking about two different forms of the Trinity?

Yeah, yeah, you know it took a while for me to kind of realize. Oh, they're talking about the same thing. Yeah, well the same being shall we say, but it's like I agree. I think the terms can be confusing.

Yeah for sure. All right come back to our written question. Oh oh. Okay, so when we talk about. So when we talk about the Sun being begotten, what do we mean?

Origin the father communicates divine essence in one eternal act to the Sun. So the so. The really the key the key to the phrase begotten is the word that modifies it which is eternal. It's an eternal begottenness an eternal generation.

And so it's it's it's non-sequential. It's non-physical. It's non procreative like us.

Like humans.

It is it is a single eternal act. There was never a time the Sun was not so that the Sun is Had the divine essence communicated from the father, but it's true to say that the Sun has the divine absence from the father.

And so that's that's the idea that begottenness.

Origin yep.

Yep, exactly right. Yep.

You might need to get you back to do Christology at some point. Speaking of Christology we've got a question here that kind of deals with that. So the person said that you know as you read the Old Testament you have this character the angel of the Lord Who.

I think we'd be in agreement pre-incarnate Christ.

Or the maybe oh.

Sometimes yeah, we should have that conversation over dinner. But in those instances where okay, it's more than like Some sort of you know divine appearing the person asked in relation to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Really whether the question was how can we explain to Jehovah's Witnesses that God is not part of creation.

But the Creator, I think I would just go to passages like we've looked at.

In.

Already in in this in our sessions in Exodus 3 in Genesis 1 and Acts 17 all these texts that look at.

The.

God as distinct From his creation and particularly if you look at the all things passages. This is where it becomes really significant especially when we're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses and other air and they're Aryans their effect.

That's what they are they're Aryans. Which is an old heresy? When the really the conversation we want to show or what we're going to have with them if we're able to have Calm and scriptural conversation is that?

When the Bible talks about the Son and talks about Christ according to his divine nature He's not in the category of things. He's the one from whom all things come so that's really really important because they're all there is in existence is God and all things and The Bible consistently puts Jesus in the God category and not the things category.

So in Colossians 1 He is before all things and in him all things hold together. Well, there's only one person you can say that of that's God. That's giving creator status to Jesus all things come from him.

Paul does the same thing with the Shema in 1st Corinthians 8 verse 6 Paul takes the Shema. Let me read this. My brain is too gone to recite it from memory but 1st Corinthians 8 verse 6 Paul says for up for us.

There is one God the Father from whom are all things and for whom we exist and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist and What's significant is that he there distinguishes a father from the Son the Lord Jesus?

But he is taking the basic Jewish confession of the Shema the Lord is our God the Lord is one and he's Opening it with further Trinitarian revelation. But the Lord Jesus Christ is on the side not of all things but of God.

The one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist. Jesus is on the creator category not the creature because all things is refers to what's created. Jesus is the creator and when we think about we touched on it very briefly.

We looked at Genesis 1 3 and God said and we said Oh God created the world by speaking. Wait a minute. Does God have vocal cords? Does God have a voice like me? What is speaking me? When we move further in scripture or realize that God made through his word all things and That the Sun is called the word.

So actually what's going on in Genesis 1 3 is a Subtle outline and shadow of what will be fully revealed in the triune God. And in Genesis 1 3 you have God Creating all things the spirit hovering over the face of the deep and the Word of God bringing things to pass.

The triunity of God is there you don't see it until it's revealed later and you look back and go Oh, oh, I know what's going on exactly now so it's it's seeing these kinds of things but but a real killer key indicator for our Jehovah's Witness friends or others is that Jesus has never put in the category of a thing.

He's always in the category of the creator of all things throughout scripture and that's significant.

The Creator and the Creature in Scripture

Yeah, that's super helpful. Super helpful. I'll have all the written questions we go. Okay, anybody have questions from the floor.

Yeah, well so.

So many things right? So if you want a really good introduction to that Carl Truman's book a strange new world is a really good survey. That's a condensed version of a longer book the rise and triumph of the modern self.

And we had dr. Truman with us at our church now three years ago and I have YouTube videos online of four sessions which breaks it down as well. So these are just different same resource.

But.

Really, you have just the shift to a the Enlightenment thinking where man became the measure of reality and where we independently sought to determine reality of our own volition and will and Once you do that, then you have to do something with our Emotions and feelings and that gets merged through all kinds of different, you know Philosophical and social streams to bring us to where we are today.

We're now someone can say well like I may be biologically male but I feel female, you know, we've now given our emotions a Almost creative force that they define reality and that's all downstream from things philosophically and things that were happening in the you know, 18th century or so during the Enlightenment that was a Effectively seeking to separate human thought and life from God and from the prior centuries of Christian assumption.

I mean, that's a very short story there's a lot there though, but you have the Romantic movement the Enlightenment and so many things that made it now where We sort of take that It's Taking our autonomy and our self-definition for granted that's now the that's now taken for granted in society, right?

It's the theme of every Disney movie I mean every Disney movie is the the motive is all the authorities are wrong. All the all the All the rules are wrong. You decide who you are for yourself. And and that's the the basic assumption of Western society now and it's suicidal.

We're literally destroying ourselves on that assumption because it's insane. But but that is the same that's the same sort of cultural philosophical milieu, which has infected the church to the point where we now Authenticity is expressing what's in us and then God must be as emotional as us if we're gonna have a real or authentic Relationship, but we're we've really got things upside down.

Yeah.

That's a big question. That's a good one.

There's a huge one. I have a bunch of follow-up questions, but none of them are Topic. I'll save that for another time. I guess any other questions from the floor. Wrap up this afternoon.

Sure. Yeah. No, so.

So in the incarnation, right God the Son Assumes a human nature to be incarnate as our Savior the Lord Jesus. So of Jesus we confess that he has one person with two natures. So God is one nature in three persons, right?

He's one what and three who's. Jesus is one person in two natures one who with two what's. So if you remember that that's how we you know Keep things together because what we have in Jesus is God taking our nature to himself to be our Savior.

So according to his human nature. Yeah, Jesus weeps suffers as a man. But not according to the divine so that's why Christians historically in Christian orthodoxy is confessing that Christ has two wills.

And that we have to do what the fancy word we do we call it as partitive exegesis that is that we attribute things as we read in Scripture to either nature of Jesus because he is a Uniquely single person with two natures.

So when Jesus is asleep in the storm He's asleep according to his human nature that we shouldn't think of God the Son. Like losing consciousness and going to sleep. God doesn't sleep and on the cross.

The divine nature did not die. Can't kill God, but God the Son and human nature died as he died in his human nature so we have to make those kinds of distinctions throughout the life and ministry of Jesus to this to this point and so in the Same way with impassibility.

We do the same thing the God the Son is impassable always and always remain even when Jesus suffered in his human nature God. The Son was not suffering. He was impassable, but he suffered in his human nature.

Yeah.

Uh-huh. Sure.

Any other questions are you asking. Whether.

The the death of Christ the God didn't determine it. Is that what's being said?

Yeah, oh.

There's I mean, we're very very confused today. It's sad. We need to recapture our proper distinctions of who God is so that we understand what he's done for our salvation. And all of these things inevitably bring you to the gospel.

And that's why it's so important that's why the early church fought so. Tenaciously in our early creeds are about the being and character of God and of Christ. Because they knew being precedes doing and if you get the being wrong, you're gonna get the doing of the gospel wrong.

Whenever we're talking about will something like The crucifixion there's multiple wills involved and you see that in Scripture. And yet not at the same Ultimacy, it's different for a man to will than for God to will the God who is sovereign over all things.

And so you take like even you know Peter's sermon in Acts 2 That where in verse 33 where Peter charges them that this this Jesus You crucified at the hands of lawless men.

So the.

It's true to say Jesus was killed by the Jewish leaders of his day and by the Romans and that was done wickedly inexcusably and people are guilty of the sin of Rejecting that our Savior and Lord and killing him was murdered.

It's the most heinous act ever to happen because the only perfect man who's ever lived was put to death wrongly. And yet then Peter goes on but this was according to the predetermined plan of God. God intended for the Son to die for us.

God the Son took a human nature to lay it down. So If you're saying God had no evil will in killing Jesus, well, then you're absolutely right. Of course, he did he only wills all holy good things but he governed in over he oversaw the evil intention of the Murderers of Jesus and the sham trial and every other evil that led to Jesus crucifixion.

That was governed by the sovereign holy will of God for good and holy purposes. And so it boils down to a distinction between the the agents of those involved the secondary causes of people and the ultimate cause of God and his will and Keeping those distinct and then we would have to deal with passages.

Like I say at 53 it pleased the Lord to crush him and He was obedient to the point of death even death on a cross. Therefore God highly exalted him and all of the texts that refer to Christ's death as a willing obedient death to the pleasure of God and his purpose was that and it's really important we get that right because that is the Demonstration of the love of God so that we can trust God's love in every other circumstance of our life.

So, I mean, this is the logic that Paul draws for example in Romans 5. He goes from the peace we have with God by faith in Jesus having been justified by faith. And then he goes on and says therefore we rejoice in our sufferings.

And when you think about it first you like wow, where did you get from there? How did you get sufferings become joyful? He's like well because if I have peace with God effectively Paul's argument in Romans 5 if I have peace with God.

Then I can know that none of the suffering I'm going through is because God's mad at me. Because I have peace with him and so all of it must be formative and then he goes on to say that the God who Demonstrates his love for us.

Having proven this that he has sent his son to die for our sins, right? And so the demonstration of the eternal love of God is in the cross of Christ. So the reason that we can trust now that God is sovereignly orchestrating all things and even governing the evil wills and men over all things for good and holy ends is proven by the cross of Christ.

Because the most evil act and the most holy act on the face of the earth are the same act the crucifixion of Christ. Humanity killed its maker and its maker redeemed humanity in the same act and so we can trust our.

God and his sovereign will overall. I think that's a good place for us to call it an afternoon. I.

Hope that's been helpful in clarifying Some of the issues that we've been grappling with. I think grappling is a really good. Yeah, it's good this weekend again. I want to thank you all for coming. Been a joy to be able to organize this.

And I'll close this out in prayer and we'll call it a weekend. Let's pray together Blessed father. We are so thankful that we've had this time to wonder at Marvel at be amazed by your greatness and your goodness.

We thank you for all that you have shown us from your word and from your servants in the past who Contemplated your word as we Thought about who you are and what you have done why we can have confidence in that.

And so father my prayer is very simple that we would continue to have confidence in You and what you are doing in our lives that we would trust you even when It seems difficult to us to understand what you are doing because we know that you are indeed good that you are indeed blessed within yourself and Therefore you act towards us in blessing.

Thank you for this weekend. Pray for My brothers sisters who are here that you have left the rest of this weekend. Bring us together again on the Lord's Day tomorrow. Ask all these things in Jesus name and for his sake.

Amen.