April 20, 2018 Show with Jonathan Cruse on “How to Write Hymns & Spiritual Songs that Glorify God”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 20th day

of April 2018 and I am so delighted that I have for the very first

time on this program Jonathan Cruz who is pastor of Community

Presbyterian Church of Kalamazoo, Michigan which is a congregation within the Orthodox

Presbyterian denomination commonly known as the OPC and our guest Jonathan Cruz is also a

published author of hymns that are available at hymnsofdevotion .com and today we are

addressing the theme how to write hymns and spiritual songs that glorify God

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jonathan Cruz.

Hi Chris, thanks so much for having me on.

It's an honor.

Oh it is my honor as well brother and if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at

gmail .com.

Please provide us with your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence

if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say that your pastor or the congregation where you're a member uh has music

that you are opposed to or perhaps you're a pastor and you don't like the country you don't

like the music in your own congregation or whatever the case may be that would compel you to remain anonymous

we will grant that request but if it's not a personal matter please give us your first name city and state and country of

residence when writing us for with a question at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Well as I typically do uh Pastor Jonathan when I have a first time guest on iron sharpens iron

radio I have them give their testimony of uh how

the well first of all what kind of religious upbringing you had if any when growing up as a child uh

and also how our lord providentially drew you to himself and saved you and how you

became uh aware of the.

And and

how you

eventually

embraced it.

Uh yeah sure as a young kid.

Um you know my dad's library.

So yes I

cut my teeth.

I cut my teeth as a new christian in the 1980s by going to the philadelphia.

Conference on reform theology every year when dr boyce was still with us.

Yeah right and so.

So yeah my uh I grew up in a home that that revered uh

in pcrt and in the alliance.

Uh sprawl obviously was another household name so that was the the uh

the norm for me.

Um so like I said grew up in the in the church and in the opc in particular.

My family was all very involved in church.

My dad was uh an elder still serves as an elder in that church and I should say chris uh you know I grew

up in um in pennsylvania.

In central pennsylvania um not too far away from carlisle.

Now do you consider yourself in central pa or in eastern pa.

They call it around here south central pa.

I'm from a new yorker by the way.

I lived in new york all my life until 2015.

Okay.

Well we won't hold that against us and carlisle pa is the first place I've

ever lived outside of new york.

Wow.

Okay well how are you finding it.

I love it.

I uh I really love it.

I love the church where I'm a member.

In fact uh as I just found out seconds before we went on the air and I told you when

we got on the phone with each other my new associate pastor at the church where I'm a member

simon omani was a classmate of yours at westminster.

Seminary in california.

Yeah that's right.

Yeah simon's a good friend.

We came in together and uh um I was always jealous of him because of uh of the accent.

Simon's you always know.

You know if you're going into the preaching business in america it helps if.

You have you know a scottish brogue or an irish.

Uh.

And you're right it does.

Um but yeah so I'm.

From a town called holidaysburg pennsylvania.

It's near altuna or state college area of central pennsylvania about two days away from

hittsburg and two hours away from carlisle right in the middle there.

Um and so we went to the what's it was called westminster orthodox

presbyterian church in holidaysburg which is as far as a

reformed church several surrounding

counties.

Until recently there's been more church plants um

familiar with with the scriptures and with reformed theology.

Um I don't know if I when I exactly I could say and save me I

do not have one of those moments where I can put point to it on the calendar.

Remember uh when I left you know went

off to college.

I went to college in philadelphia um actually attended tenth presbyterian you know as

we spoke of the philadelphia conference earlier.

Um but it was at that time I realized you know it doesn't matter what family I grew up in doesn't matter what books

were on my dad's shelf uh doesn't matter what church I attended I really need to own my faith

for myself.

And so the way I like to put it is that you know I don't think I.

I uh I think I was a christian when I got to college felt somewhat of a

useless christian and I wasn't living out my faith.

And so it was really my first year of college that I endeavored to be a you

know relied more heavily upon the grace of.

God and took my praise.

God and uh how did you realize that god had placed a call upon your life.

To

become a pastor yeah

interesting

anything

I was planning on

that was the

city uh and as

a

hoping you get that big break and I wanted to stay closer to home and so I thought well what else could I do.

And I really had no idea.

So I switched my major from film to communications which was kind of like a uh

it's kind of like a jack of all trades major we still study film but we also study things

like speaking uh broadcasting

radio a little bit even uh and I decided I'll just get this kind of generic track and we'll see what what comes of it.

And I also studied english a little bit and it was at that time where I was switched

majors I didn't know what I was going to do.

That somebody at the church I was attending at tenth uh said you know you should apply to be an intern here and

work with the youth ministry we think you'd be good.

And until until I heard that I'd never

once I would be in ministry in any kind of

way.

But there was something about you know they said it and I couldn't get it out of my head after that.

And so I applied for this pastoral internship at 10th Prospeterian uh I got accepted and

hired to work with the uh the young the youth that would be 7th and 12th graders uh they had their own

kind of Sunday evening service every week where you'd you'd have a

sermonette you know we call it 20 minutes 15 minutes break into small

groups talk about study questions that kind of thing.

Um and so that was in my my last two years of college I did that and the more I did it the more I

realized I think this is something I want to do full -time um I loved the the

idea of of teaching I'd never had taught before.

I had never Chris I'd never done public speaking before.

In fact I was terrified of it anytime I'd ever give a five minute speech in class in high school or college I'd get terrified.

But uh this this kind of got me used to it and I realized what I'm doing when I was when I was preaching or you

know teaching up there and I was crafting a story.

And it was the things that I loved about my film degree that I switched out of.

I got to keep doing because I love telling stories for people and trying to present them in creative ways as a film

major and I realized well I'm getting to do that.

And if I became a preacher I get to do that every single week.

And it's not just telling stories it's telling the greatest story which is the gospel and God's love to us

and how he saved us from our sins you know of course obviously this is providence

but unbeknownst to me God had been preparing me for pastoral ministry all my life uh and I

didn't realize it until that that moment at my third year college when I realized okay I'm.

Gonna have to go to seminary and that's kind of how that played out.

Well praise God.

And uh tell us uh some more details specifically about

community presbyterian church of kalamazoo michigan.

And uh also we've got to announce the exciting news to those of you our listeners

especially in michigan and especially even more if they live near kalamazoo

that you are having dr conrad and bayway preach there starting tomorrow for a conference who happens to be a

dear friend of mine.

I've known him since 1995.

We just recently had him on the program uh to discuss two of his books

uh foundations for the flock and pastoral preaching.

And i am going to be blessed by hearing him also locally at

uh the um the alliance of confessing evangelicals conference the philadelphia

conference on reform theology.

Uh yeah that uh is only named that out of love

and a tribute to dr james montgomery boyce because it is no longer held in

philadelphia at the 10th presbyterian church but it's held at now proclamation presbyterian church in brinmar

pennsylvania.

Right.

But tell us something about community presbyterian church of kalamazoo.

Uh sure i'd be happy to.

Uh well this is

my just a year

ago from california.

In fact my professors on the on the program i'm sure.

Yeah in fact uh dr jim renahan you must have heard of him because he ran the

irbs uh institute for reform baptist studies there which is now going to be

launching its own um seminary in mansfield texas this september.

Right.

Yeah uh a great guy and even though i wasn't part of

work that he did last

year of

calls putting feelers out there um seeing what vacant pulpits were available and some people

also right around the

christmas new year um right around uh

that were very deciding between

california uh one was to be an associate pastor of a much larger church of a different denomination

uh in pennsylvania and then there was to be a solo pastor of a smaller church here in

kalamazoo so different works

you know sure and all different areas.

So that was a difficult decision but with much prayer um and we

decided to accept the call to come to get opc here

the early uh planted by um

a dear a dear man of god named abe eddiger pa which

is right outside of

harrisburg.

Maybe you don't know chris because you've only been here a little bit that's right.

Why.

I'm only a half hour from harrisburg so if it's close to harrisburg it can't be that close.

Harrisburg.

Yeah.

So so abe planted the church

in the in

the 70s who loved the word of

it.

Oh

yeah sure.

Really it's a great privilege i

have

not just to

minister to

them but just

to and um creation.

But actually in that time by god's grace now we're

excited to see

uh what.

Well i feel a lot more.

Comfortable.

Uh if i ever visit you folks that you won't uh throw me out when you find out i'm a reformed baptist

because i know that you're having conrad and bayway right.

Preaching a conference there.

Uh comrade who is.

Uh.

I believe uh and i'm not exaggerating i believe he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet earth.

And uh i have always been thoroughly and enormously blessed

by a doctor and bayway.

And by the way this is this is something a bit of advice for you.

If you

i don't know if i mentioned you to our audience he's the pastor of kabwatha baptist church in lusaka

zambia africa.

I've mentioned it many other times in other days i just don't know if i mentioned it today but um when he first

came to the united states for the very first time in in 1995 he preached at the church where i was a member

grace reformed baptist church of long island.

And we ran an advertising campaign for at least a month

before he came.

And i create i worked for a radio station at the time uh part of one of the

largest in fact the largest radio network the largest christian radio network in the world

salem media.

Uh and uh we ran a month's worth of advertising with a clip of conrad

preaching.

He was really preaching his guts out as they say uh on the cross of christ

and over the three -day period of our conference we had over 500 visitors.

And that does not include the people who are members of our church.

So wow we were totally blown away.

The phones were ringing off the hook all month because of this clip that we played of conrad.

But that's just advice if you ever get them back so you can next time even give the conference more

publicity.

Yeah yeah.

Well let me tell you a little bit about.

North america the

urc congregation.

Yeah very familiar with

that denomination.

Right.

Yeah.

And i

know.

Bill.

I've had bill on the program.

Well that's what he told me when i told him i was.

Coming on the program.

Yeah i've interviewed him a number of times.

So yeah.

So.

But he was.

That's right.

And he came to kalamazoo about a let's i think maybe two years before i did.

And we we've just hit it off.

Um you know great friendship and a good great brother in christ.

And real good encourager for me.

You know.

A new minister.

We talked uh you

know kind of pulled pulled together our

resources and um and see what.

And the credit goes to bill because he's the one who got.

Apparently you know he had been just down the

zoo.

And he would try that every year.

Conrad this year finally said hey i'm going to be in your neck of the woods.

I'd love to come preach.

And so bill told me that.

And i said hey bill here's.

This is our conference you know.

Because he was just coming to do pulpit supply.

I said oh we got to make an event out of this.

We have conrad and bayway in town.

First annual conference.

We're calling it the faith in life conference in kalamazoo.

Basically conrad and bayway's one of our plenary speakers.

We have another speaker.

I'd be happy to talk about him a little bit later.

Micah edmond is going to be coming in rapids.

I had micah.

On my program.

Uh a couple of months ago.

Yeah.

Well then.

Well you know he's a he's a he's a.

Wonderful uh

getting

preached at by conrad and micah.

They just bring such force with them.

Uh tomorrow.

Um but so we're putting this on together.

But we we are putting it on together as a joint effort.

And um yes if any of your listeners are in the michigan area or want to drive

over play lines that seems to be the

biggest pull to when we tell people we're having chicken play.

But i i keep telling people.

You know you got to come and hear conrad.

So i i heard 13 i heard him at a board

kind of like an urbana.

Yeah i remember seeing that advertised.

Actually.

Yeah uh it was you

know

one of these just

massive thing.

And um you know who.

He was told my congregation that it was the

greatest sermon

i've ever

heard

in my

life.

Mike

edmondson

is

going to take

one of them.

And then also then um sunday evening if anybody or sunday if anybody's in town conrad will be preaching.

Uh bill boca stein.

Still plenty of opportunity.

And i just

i just have grain rapids.

That's right.

And conrad was here just last week so i got to hear him

again two times and i know he's going to be um at the the

pennsylvania

one.

So yeah praise god.

Well i assume that people can.

Get more information about this conference at kalamazoo cpc .org.

I made the mistake i was getting an error coming up on my computer screen over and over and over again

because of my failing eyesight.

At 56 years of old i still haven't bit the bullet and getting and got a prescription

pair of glasses so i kept typing in kalamazoo opc because i knew that you were in the

orthodox right.

So it's kalamazoo cpc for community presbyterian church .org kalamazoo cpc .org

and i'm assuming all the information about the conference will be there.

Yeah the information is.

There it's under our resource tab or you can go kalamazoo cpc .org.

Slash faith and life.

One word faith and life and that'll take you information you need for

um the conference and you don't need to register but if you want to let us know you're coming.

Uh you can register there on the.

Website.

Praise god uh well uh we are going to uh play one of your

songs that you have written before we even go into the topic of our program

today.

Uh as we said earlier if those of you who uh just tuned in and perhaps missed

the announcements at the beginning our guest today jonathan cruz not only is he a pastor but he is

a writer of modern day hymns.

Of course if he wrote them they have to be modern day.

But uh uh we are going to be discussing how to write hymns and spiritual songs that

glorify god.

Uh i have done a number of programs on hymns that

glorify god and music that glorifies god and so on because this is obviously a very

divisive subject in the body of christ.

It has divided christians like almost nothing else.

Uh yeah i'm so glad to be on talking about this subject then.

Yeah a lot of churches.

Well it's important because of that reason it has split churches and

it's really sad to see uh what kind of tension and strife and hostility that comes up

just because of the music.

And a lot of times uh i think perhaps even most often uh

there is a bit of uh selfishness going on in this respect where people

are trying to bully their way into churches and denominations regardless of who

they may uh offend or what have you.

But there's all kinds of uh reasons why we sinners we're all still sinners while we're on this earth.

And and unfortunately a very important and beautiful

uh gift from god which is music uh unfortunately that has been the cause of of sin

in the church.

But i'm going to before we go to a break i'm going to play one of your songs and i'm hoping

that this works because i haven't even tested it yet.

But we're going to play lamb precious lamb and here it is by jonathan cruz.

Oh and and guess what it's not working.

I'm clicking the wrong thing.

Oh here it.

Is yeah okay

here

it

is.

Uh

brothers

and

sisters

just

praise

god

i'm

i'm

hoping

that you uh were.

As blessed as i was by that and i have a very strong feeling that my

most of my listeners uh were just as blessed as as i was.

But we're going to be going to our first break right now and when we come back i'm going to read you the lyrics to

that hymn because they are truly uh magnificent.

And um if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris

arnzen at gmail .com.

C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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For am i.

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Every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

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bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with

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Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

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I have called him a dear friend.

Since the 1980s when i was a brand new christian he was one of the first visiting

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At the time it was called calvary baptist church of amityville and pastor bill shishko and i who was

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So uh i hope that you uh discover that program.

By the way uh to my guest here that we are interviewing and if you just tuned us in

uh i'm interviewing jonathan cruz pastor of community presbyterian church which is an opc congregation in kalamazoo

michigan.

Are you my dear friend.

Uh pastor bill shishko only by reputation i i don't have.

The privilege of meeting him in person.

But i do know bill and the shishko family uh

well by their reputation in the denomination well respected uh and have done a lot to further.

Christ's kingdom.

Amen.

In fact uh i don't think uh jonathan one of his sons who's a pastor i don't

far from your age if i'm not mistaken uh yeah i think he might be about 10 years older than me.

But yeah he's also serving in uh new york as well.

That's right.

Yes.

Yeah uh in queens new york.

Um right.

Yeah.

So uh perhaps uh you all can meet at one point but the nice thing about our denomination

is it's not too big.

So you get to meet everybody uh sooner or later.

That's right.

And uh if you just tuned in uh we are discussing how to write hymns and spiritual songs that

glorify god.

And we are also announcing the two upcoming conferences where dr conrad

mbaywe of kibwata baptist church in lusaka zambia africa will be preaching the first of

which begins tomorrow at community presbyterian church in kalamazoo michigan.

And then the other one where i will be in just a matter of

days from the 27th through the 29th will be held at

the proclamation presbyterian church in brinmar pennsylvania.

But we'll give you more specific details after our midway break.

I want to read for our listeners the lyrics to that breathtaking hymn

that we just played before the break.

Uh and i uh i am just taken aback by uh your writing uh

abilities brother.

Um we have.

We have the the lyrics here for lamb precious lamb.

Lamb precious lamb whose blood was shed for me spread on the frame of

calvary's cruel tree.

The paschal sacrifice is all my stay.

Dear lamb who came to take our sins away.

Lamb spotless lamb for naught is wrong in thee no mark or blemish nor

impurity.

From the world's founding thou was truly slain.

Come purge my sin and cleanse my every stain.

Lamb willing lamb thou walked the sufferer's path endured the shame and

of wrath still vain and selfish off we disobey.

Oh faithful shepherd keep us in thy way.

Lamb mighty lamb who triumphs over sin severed its chains to make us

whole within gentle in power both kind and strong.

Thou art.

Oh lamb and lion conquer all my heart.

Lamb worthy lamb who reigns for endless days.

Maker redeemer thine be all thy praise.

We join the eternal choirs of heaven great king glory and honor to the

lamb.

We sing uh truly truly beautiful brother.

But let me read you the lyrics of this other beautiful hymn here a sinner saved by grace.

My daily theme must be arise my soul and now embrace this all

-sufficient plea.

A sinner to my core in adam's fallen race.

But in christ jesus something more.

A sinner saved by grace.

When satan's sin and shame accuse me to my face i shield myself behind

this claim.

A sinner saved by grace.

No harm can now befall.

No evil can displace my ransom soul.

When this my call.

A sinner saved by grace.

And when before the throne the judge refused reviews my case my

peace will be.

He loves to own a sinner saved by grace.

Absolutely breathtaking now.

In addition to writing the lyrics did you also compose the melodies to.

These hymns uh no i cannot take any uh credit for that

as your audience

is

you know genevieve

and salter

a number of composers that i worked with appreciate music and and uh and i

do play piano and that later.

But as far as composition uh i leave it to the expert was composed

by stir director of music at 10th presbyterian church paul s jones

written all things you know.

Regarding worship he's written the book singing and making music published by pnr and also the little booklet

what is worship music.

Uh.

He's also known for writing uh hymns with the late dr james boyce um people like eric

alexander phil reichen which i'm sure your audience will be familiar with.

Those people.

Oh yeah.

So uh he and i've written about 10 hymns together um two of which are going to be included in

um in a week at the end of april um

the trinity

and uh

the uh the universal

church and

then

about four hundred and

then even hymns from the 21st century.

Four of mine include.

The music is composed

writing the words chris that's that's.

My area of expertise is leave the music up to well

praise god that you're going to.

Be in a new trinity hymnal uh that is probably the most uh

most frequently used hymnal of the reformed churches both those that are presbyterian

uh dutch reformed and reformed baptist all over all over the country.

I know that that's what we use at grace baptist church in carlisle pennsylvania.

Oh and now you guys have to update it that's right.

Are they going to include your hymns in the baptist version.

Well uh i'm going to take one of our listener questions before we go to our midway break.

And by the way for when we come back from the the break if you could let me know of

another hymn on this list where there's actually singing.

I'd like to play another one.

Okay.

Um well first of all we have gordy in mechanicsburg pennsylvania he says.

Have we exhausted our ability to write biblically sound songs and hymns or are too many

people pandering to our desire for emotionally stirring lyrics and melodies.

Uh interesting.

Well i am i am emotionally stirred by traditional hymns

so i don't think there's anything wrong with being emotionally stirred.

Um uh.

But anyway if you could comment at what on what gordy said.

Sure.

Well it's kind of a two -part.

Question.

Have we exhausted the have not exhausted.

Yeah our guest is proof of that.

I i hope.

Yeah i hope i'm proof that there's still people out there doing it.

And but then the second question.

Is or are we.

Can you re -read that again.

Pandering.

How did he phrase this.

Uh are we or or or.

Are too many people pandering to our desire for emotionally stirring lyrics

and melodies.

I think that if you're not stirred by many if not most of the classic

traditional biblically saturated hymns there's something wrong with your soul as far as i'm concerned.

But i don't mean that to you gordy.

I'm talking about to people who only want modern music or should i say uh

contemporary music.

Now obviously our guests music is contemporary but it is um

reminiscent of the more traditional style of hymnody.

Uh and uh the um there there is uh

a i don't know how to i don't know how to phrase it the the modern music can appeal to the

emotion in a different way uh and the the the themes of grace

and the themes of the bible that saturate the traditional hymns.

I mean not all hymns are good but i mean those that most of us who are reformed use.

Uh they do uh stir me emotionally.

And i think should stir.

But anyway if you could continue.

Yeah sure.

Well like i said we exhausted.

Our

ability.

Too many

people

pan an

emotional

experience in

the

um

manipulative.

Uh will be

that

tries.

Yeah amen.

And um

as

we

read in luke chapter 7 36 through 50.

Therefore i say to you.

Her sins which are many are forgiven for she loved much but to whom little is forgiven

the same loves little.

Um and uh we we've got to remember that that

if you know that you've been forgiven for much you will love much.

And i think that that will reveal itself.

Uh emotionally.

Um not.

That everybody expresses themselves the same because you know you'll have

charismatics and pentecostals mock.

Uh many of us who are reformed because we are responding emotionally in a different way.

We're not dancing around and and doing all kinds of gymnastics.

Uh and that can be a false demonstration of emotion doesn't necessarily mean it's false.

But it can be.

But and that is not to say that some of the accusations against reformed christians are not actually

accurate.

I'm not right.

I'm not saying that we don't deserve that that insult on many occasions.

But uh.

But anyway we have to go to our midway station break.

And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside the usa and please only remain anonymous.

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And before we return to our discussion today just have a couple more upcoming

events that we want to plug.

The aforementioned conference that we have discussed already i just want to

remind you about it.

It's going to be held tomorrow april 21st and sunday april 22nd

at the community presbyterian church in kalamazoo michigan featuring my favorite preacher

alive today dr conrad mbewe who is the pastor of kobata baptist church in lusaka

zambia africa.

And also featuring a person who has been a guest on iron sharpens iron radio

once before micah edmondson who was also an orthodox presbyterian i mean

also in addition to our guest i should say because conrad as many of you know is a reformed baptist as

i am.

And if you want more details on registering for this free conference go to kalamazoo

cpc .org kalamazoo which is spelled k -a -l -a -m

-a -zoo cpc .org.

And then right on the heels of that i get my turn to hear uh

pastor conrad mbewe again right here in pennsylvania at the proclamation presbyterian church of bryn marr

pennsylvania april 27th through the 29th.

I can't wait to be there and see my dear friend again.

Uh if you would like to join me you go to alliancenet .org alliancenet

.org click on events and then click on philadelphia conference on reformed theology as i said earlier it is

only named the philadelphia conference out of love and respect and tribute to the

late dr james montgomery boyce who held the philadelphia conferences for many years at the 10th

presbyterian church in philadelphia pennsylvania.

Now they are being conducted in michigan and in bryn marr pennsylvania.

And the michigan location has already had their philadelphia conference and the

bryn marr pennsylvania location will have its conference as i just mentioned the 27th through the 29th of

april at the proclamation presbyterian church bryn marr pennsylvania the spirit of the age and the age of the

spirit is the theme and speakers include uh conrad mbewe

who i just mentioned richard phillips who is the pastor of the second presbyterian church of

greenville south carolina a friend of mine and a guest a number of times on this program jonathan

master and scott oliphant are among the other speakers.

If you'd like to register go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org click on events and then click on

philadelphia conference on reformed theology.

And please whenever you respond to one of these ads for special events or for anything else please

tell our advertisers that you heard about them from chris arnzen and iron sharpens iron radio.

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Uh the advertisers who have spent hard -earned money keeping this program on the air urged me for a

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I i ignored their pleas for years going back to 2005 until

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Click support and click click to donate now.

We are now back to our guest today pastor jonathan cruz of community

presbyterian church which is an orthodox presbyterian church congregation in kalamazoo michigan

and he is a published author of hymns available at hymnsofdevotion .com we

are discussing how to write hymns and spiritual songs that glorify god.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have a listener all the way in kinross scotland murray in kinross scotland

says the faith and life conference sounds great.

But is there any possibility of it being live streamed.

For those of us who can't attend.

A great question

website after it's over.

Great.

Well thank you murray.

Keep listening in kinross.

Scotland and spreading the word about our program in the uk and beyond.

Uh well i'm going to play a another song that you have uh written

uh and perhaps this time i'm going to read the lyrics of of

the uh of the of the song first.

And uh by the way let me repeat our email address it's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of

the usa.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private

matter.

Uh and uh this next song is i

have such a gracious father and i'm going to read the

lyrics first.

As i just said i have such a gracious father who has saved me from my sin

cleansed me from my soul.

My foul transgressions made me pure without within.

When i cried out for salvation in his word my god replied

child of mine oh look to jesus trust his mercies now applied.

I have such a loving father who unfolds me in his arms when i'm weak and scared and lonely

all my worries he disarms.

When i cry out for compassion in his word my god replies child of mine

look see new mercies breaking with the morning skies.

I have such a mighty father who is king and lord of all.

He upholds me by his power lest i stumble faint or fall.

When i cry out for protection in his word my god replies child of mine

look see new mercies breaking through the morning skies.

I have such a faithful father who abides in heaven above though i wander.

He is waiting and will welcome me with love.

When i cry out for direction in his word my god replies child of mine look

see new mercies breaking with the morning skies.

And now i will play this song for you and i hope you.

Are greatly blessed by

it.

Praise

god

what

a

gorgeous

hymn.

Oh

thank

you chris.

And uh we have.

A question from rj in white plains new york.

He says what would be your biggest criticism of modern

music.

And i know that there is much wonderful christian music being produced today but it seems to be in the

minority.

Still what are your complaints.

Yeah well yeah i want to start by.

Saying uh i i don't have a blanket criticism of modern christian music as you said i you know i

i'm part of the modern christian music movement um and i think it's part of our duty as

christians in every age and every generation to be singing a new song.

Um my my biggest

concern question is that

essentially um we can't.

You know i want like i said i want to make a blanket statement but by and large a lot of modern uh mainstream

christian music that's meant for worship mind you this is the issue.

I have that music that's meant for worship tries to get to the heart by by

bypassing the head.

And that's not christian.

That's bad theology.

You know god god cares about the whole he wants us

to when we sing to him.

Uh more than uh more than

anything else we should care about what we say to god and the way we say it

to him.

And it as i've said it's very sensational.

It's about the emotions it's about the you know it's about that feeling you get without having any substance

behind it and also in the way it's done.

There's a lot of things that make me uncomfortable that um worship music is turning into something more of a

show our entertainment rather than god's exaltation.

And i think that's something we need to be very.

Careful about.

Yes you are a hymn composer hymn writer uh and uh

there is something distinct about a hymn in that it is is

uh specifically written for congregational singing.

That's right.

And there are some now i i beat up on modern or contemporary

christian music so much i think i give.

In fact i know i give many people the wrong idea i i love uh

quite a a good number of contemporary christian songs.

Even so even songs that uh that i love that

are not i.

I don't believe they are conducive for corporate or congregational worship but i still love an important

distinction.

To make it right yes we're what we are listening perhaps for our own edification.

You know i've been

the

car

or something.

Musical ability.

Writing him

with consideration when writing.

Um amen yeah.

And uh i disagree with with those and there are

many uh even who uh would share my theology even who

have said that uh rhythm and um

melody uh and the uh the the music

that is composed that goes behind the words of our christian worship

music is neutral they will say.

And i have long said that i think that that's actually absurd

because because uh melody and rhythm and beat

create moods it is without question they create moods and not all moods

are appropriate.

For worship right now if people want to make the claim that music is neutral then ask them why it is that armies

don't march to war to lullabies.

Oh there you go.

I mean music.

Music has.

It's not neutral.

It carries with it with or without the words.

And what's so important about him.

Writing and worship.

Finding text set to one another to have

a healthy marriage we could say where they they are.

Perfect uh you know.

Fitting for one another.

Perfectly fitting for one another.

So that the mood of the music is all it needs to be served.

It all needs to be in service of the words.

Uh you know.

So that we are singing to god with heart soul mind and strength.

And with meaning and feeling.

And it's all compatible.

We're not singing about.

You know you tried taking a hymn like and i i do these little you know classes i go around to churches and do

hymn seminars and and you you could sing a great hymn like lead on oh king eternal

uh to the tune of oh sacred head now wounded and it just it will feel it will feel wrong to you.

You know there's just something that's not right.

It doesn't match up.

And so yeah music is certainly not neutral.

It matters.

And if.

It uh you know i'm going to say something that uh i i i'm i'm hoping

that i'm i'm not offending people who some people who are listening who may have been

at the same event that i was at but i i think it's very appropriate to say now this was

an event.

I have to be very clear that my congregation where i'm a member was not a part of this event.

Grace baptist church of carlisle was not the church orchestrating this.

It would in fact it wasn't even a reformed church.

I mean let me let.

There were dear brothers and sisters in christ at this event who

uh i consider my my brethren and i love them and they were very gracious in inviting me to

this event.

But my heart sank and i felt very troubled because

they had the person who was leading the the singing who was a

camp director like i think he was primarily a youth director but he was serving in the

capacity of a worship leader at this event.

He had us sing amazing grace to the melody of gilligan's island.

And my heart sank because those precious precious

deeply meaningful words that john newton penned with a former slave

trader evil vile man who discovered the grace and mercy of jesus christ

and his uh forgiveness uh and his uh atonement and

redemption provided on the cross of calvary that this precious hymn was being really i don't know if

i i know that they weren't consciously making a mockery of it.

But i can't see how you could not make a mockery of those words by singing it that

way yeah that tarnishes it.

And uh well i'm very delighted to hear that.

You do uh seminars and we'll talk a little bit about that when we come back from our final break.

This is the last break that we will be going to.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Well we still have time.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away.

God willing we'll be right back after these messages from our.

Sponsors.

Hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study.

By calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone.

Needs a pastor.

Iron sharpens.

Iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors.

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understanding and exceeding your expectations.

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717 -697 -1981 or visit solidrockremodeling

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That's solidrockremodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to

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For many years to come

tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse.

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And and if your church is going to be getting new hymnals that include our guests

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pastor of community presbyterian church in kalamazoo michigan and he is a hymn writer.

And you can find his hymns at hymns of devotion .com and some of his hymns will be included in a new edition of

the trinity hymnal.

If your church is getting new hymns that include our guests hymns uh why not

at the same time take a look at those bibles that you've got in the pews.

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uh or for yourself go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com.

You can also order new american standard bibles from cvbbs .com another sponsor of this

program coverland valley bible book service cvbbs .com uh we

have uh bb in cumberland county pennsylvania

who says how can we be dogmatic about the style of music we sing in our

churches when the bible does not provide for us musical notes or anything like that

as our infallible guide.

Hmm good question.

In that we we don't want to be overly dogmatic in areas that we cannot be.

Of course you

and i

are familiar with in life that come out of you

know 18 or 19th century.

Obviously

that god is

where

we cannot be

too dogmatic.

What

we it

doesn't

matter at all.

You can uh revive

doesn't

mean that

using

music in

church uh that has

the

wrong kind of

aspect

that reminds us

more of uh the stadium concert right than it does about the sacred space in

which we are worshiping.

So we can't we can't come dogmatically down and say this is the right style.

But whatever style we are pursuing we need to very carefully and

i think that's that give that kind of.

Yeah yeah uh i've.

Said this on another program about music.

But those who are staunch about their defense that anything goes when it

comes to music i wonder how many of those people would say the same thing with the manner with

which one preaches the gospel.

If if a minister ascended into the pulpit and for the entirety of his message

uh was preaching like jim carrey in one of his you know very

bizarre comedy uh movies with the funny voices and and so on.

I mean unfortunately there would be a lot of people who would love that i know that.

But i wonder if they are regenerate if they would uh if they would love and i'm speaking of if they

would love the way uh if they would love their preacher to preach that way.

I'm not saying that right.

I'm not saying you can't.

Enjoy and laugh at jim carrey as long as he's right.

Yeah.

Well the bible speaks and speaks elsewhere especially in the psalms of worshiping

with joy and with gladness but it never speaks of worshiping with uh

flippancy or with levity.

And um to say that stock invade can't convey things like flippancy

or levity is wrong.

To say that style doesn't matter at all.

If and if you don't believe that then pick up your bibles and look in the

book of leviticus to read the story of nadab and by who um god cared so much about the way that they worship him that he

struck them down dead.

Now we praise god that he's so gracious with us and even though we come to come to him as sinful

creatures and there's no worship that we can offer this side of heaven that is perfect.

He condescends to us he scoops to us he aids us by his spirit.

But that doesn't give us license to not care about the way we worship.

That ought to be of the utmost importance to us as christians because truly the most

important thing we will do this side of heaven is worship amen.

And we.

Wouldn't want a minister on the other end of the spectrum for a half hour to

an hour and a half however long he preaches screaming at us non -stop uh

no matter what he's saying.

Like some of these screech uh heavy metal uh singers um

because there are christians who think that's acceptable music in the church as well.

Well would you want your pastor just to scream at you almost in a way where you can't even understand what

he's saying regardless of what the content of his uh messages.

Now i understand.

I'm not talking about the very appropriate raising of the voice and thundering with the

truth of god's word.

I'm talking about uh screaming and so on.

But anyway we i think that we've made our point with that uh i want in the next 20 minutes that we have left

for you to really let our listeners know.

Especially those who are aspiring hymn writers or musicians or songwriters

or worship leaders.

Uh to uh i want them to get.

From you your counsel in regarding uh writing hymns.

Sure.

Yeah i'd be glad to um it turns out if they're not

planning on being a hymn writer that that they kind of the counsel i could give regarding him.

Uh if i give to any christian um as far as

considering what makes a good hymn a good hymn so um even for you know just your your

lay christian you should be thinking as you pick up the hymnal each sunday uh and hopefully throughout

the week as you make a part of your song i should be singing are these words that i should be

lifting up to god.

And so some of the tips i have for how we should be composing hymn texts i think are helpful in that respect too.

So so my hope is uh that that everybody will find this useful.

I i like to break it down to two two kind of main categories.

Chris if i could just talk about those two categories and that is our hymn texts should be first acceptable

to god and secondly accessible to us.

So acceptable to god and accessible to us.

And then um just a few points for each of those.

But if we kind of use those as you know hooks we talk about him

must be acceptable and pleasing to god.

And i think a few ways we can do that uh

thing is it needs to be

love about our brothers who are song singers is that they recognize

it's important to sing the word of god.

Um i hold that same conviction even though i write hymns and i sing hymns um i don't think

it's wasting our time uh singing any hymns that can't that can't be found in scripture.

That is to say they're theological.

You know paul

says let the word of christ

singing song.

You know every one matthew

chapter six.

So

that's ephesians chapter

two verse eight.

But that the hymn as a whole is scriptural and i think it is great that you

know lines that are lifted are hymns to

be acceptable to god.

They need to be bible centered.

And by that i mean and this is another issue of music today

worship music a lot of it is me centered.

The pronouns are

all you

know i

me who he is

primarily on god's

love

his

one last thing just could be acceptable to

god is this category.

You know i've

been saying it for so long but i'm pretty sure i need to credit pastor terry johnson i don't know if you're familiar with him down in georgia.

Yes uh yeah i think that that comes from one of his books.

He talks about our music being our worship being theologically mature.

And the idea is this we can have biblically based god center

appropriate level of and you know the example i like to use is that

while it's true to say that you know the bibl is book for me.

Um and we stand alone on the word of god.

Those are true statements.

Perhaps a better expression for congregational worship is found in more substantial

poetry like how firm a foundation the saints of the lord is laid for your

faith in his conveying the same truth.

Right the bible is.

And one that is say

theologically trite.

Now it's a kid's song.

So.

Right.

In certain settings it's perfectly appropriate.

Yeah.

I was at a congregational worship.

I was at a uh worship service a couple of years ago and they

opened up the worship service.

This was not a child's service.

This was a corporate worship of adults and children gathered together.

And uh this was at a a pentecostal church.

Uh and i have friends there and i love them.

But they had.

They opened up the worship service with a song that had one line in it that was

repeated for about i don't know four minutes at least.

Yeah.

And that line was another issue.

Right of being repetition.

Yeah.

And the line was this is how we worship him clap your hands.

This is how we.

And that went on and on and on.

And i had to just drop my hands to my side and stop singing because i felt like a fool.

And i felt in fact i remember thinking even if i had a child

who was in a children's church service of some kind i would be

upset even if they were teaching the children to.

Sing

that

song right i

recognize that corporate hymn singing is a form in which

they

comprehend maybe not at first glance you know kind

of chew upon it and

and give back to god in meaningful praise so those

are focused on god and what

he's done for us

incredible maturity.

But then the other

we can uh about how emotionalism isn't

entirely bad we should be mining

obviously the first

thing that comes to mind right we you know our hymns

rhyme um that's that's a kind of a note

that doesn't exist to control what the text has to say.

Uh in fact you know there i'm i'm not going to point out any song in particular but i'm sure you've you've you've been there and

you've sung to that rhyme

that it stands out we don't want

the rhyming to and it does help us to remember it.

There are different ways you know which you can employ rhyming different um rhyming schemes.

You know there's a b a b and then you can throw in a b c you know c b a it's all kinds of

interesting ways in which uh you can work with rhyming and the metrical setting to to get

across certain feelings in in hymn text give

your ye who know him by thomas kelly and it has a

meter of

and so what this does

momentum even apart from the music as you read the poetry you feel that eight eight eight and then five it's just kind of

an abrupt climactic stanza that has a different um rhyme than

the other two.

So those are ways it gives the like i said momentum and that that helps

uh for that that particular text which is an is an uplifting

and a pluralism

motifs throughout

or meaning uh you if you know hymns if you

think of um well even some of the ones that that you played from

lamb singer

there's a

theme i'm supposed to be picking up

in this in this hymn that aids us that

assists us life and let it be right

and then that the lord

would do something take my uh feet and make them move right and take my um

life and let it be take my hand and

let them

speed with

gossip

and that

the

me

to my face i

shield myself behind this claim

maturities

employing things is

our god because

the

first

verse right if

you were to

just

end there

it'd be a pretty thing at

all you

realize at him carefully

we

could

ever engage

in singing praise to him coming before him and

lifting up our are he is a god worthy to be

amen we have cj.

From lindenhurst long island.

Who says don't you think that we who use traditional hymn books should

explain to the congregation when archaic words are used in the song so that

especially new believers can understand what they're singing to begin with.

Absolutely i think that's a great thing and i wish more ministers would do that.

You know the common example has come now found of every blessing which in that second verse has that word ebenezer.

Right.

Uh we don't here i raise my ebenezer.

Well you could do what.

Right.

You could chalk it up to archaic language and say oh well they'll just never worry about it.

You could say well it's old language so we're not going to sing it.

There's a couple things you could do that would just kind of bypass the issue.

Or which i think is the better option would be for the minister the worship leader just to take 30 seconds.

Right.

Explain what is an ebenezer.

Right.

It's this.

It's this symbol of god's faithfulness to us.

And when you do that before the singing not only does it the song we're about to sing but it

deepens our understanding of the bible.

Right.

It's another another opportunity for whoever's up front to teach and

edify the congregation.

And also another thing about these archaic words is it reminds us that when we gather in corporate

worship we're we're joining with the voices from ages past.

Right.

Amen.

It's not just here in the church today you know whatever that particular sunday is we're joining with

them in the past just as we know one day we're going to join with them in ages to come in heaven.

Right.

Amen.

That that that ancient thing about you

know in um name.

Right.

Oh that with we add

his name lord of all.

Amen.

Uh down through the ages.

And so yeah that's a great question about what we should do with old language.

I think it's an opportunity it shouldn't be a hindrance.

It's a great opportunity and that's.

Also a great reason to incorporate the psalter in in the worship because of the very thing that you said

to connect not only with uh the saints from the new covenant but even from the

old covenant.

Absolutely.

Well i want you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds.

Of our listeners right now in just about two minutes time.

Okay.

Uh well i'll say it again because i

do want that to be etched in our your listeners uh hearts and minds.

Uh worship is the most important thing we know that based upon eternal there

are internal design we could say just the way we're created.

Uh you know romans one and two talks about this that we're made for.

And if we're not worshiping god we're going to worship something worthless.

And we also know that it's the most important thing we'll ever do because it is the only thing we will do for

an eternity.

You know if you think about the mission of the church to plug this back into our conference tomorrow uh we're going to be talking about

evangelism we're going to be talking about edification.

Those things are going to pass away.

The third thing that we're talking about is worship that is what continues in heaven to

consider now we're kind of

practicing for what we're going to be doing for an eternity.

And because of that we should take it very carefully.

It is not something uh that should be taken flippantly especially

really and and to really

memorize words to a hand than we are to memorize scripture just because of music and rhyming and

all that kind of soul's memory.

Amen.

And

i want

you all to remember that the conference the faith.

And life conference at community presbyterian church in kalamazoo michigan is being held

tomorrow and sunday and the website for more details is kalamazoocpc

.org that's k -a -l -a -m -a -zoo cpc .org

and you'll find out all the information that you need.

Also i don't want to forget to remind you that the banner of truth ministers conference where i will be attending

god willing may 29th through the 31st will be held in elizabethtown pennsylvania

featuring allister begg jimmy gibson mark johnston al moeller david

strain and craig troxell who i believe is an opc minister.

That's right.

Yeah.

And uh if you'd like to register for this conference which is on the theme the ministers of christ go to

banner of truth .org banner of truth .org click on events and then click on 2018 us

ministers conference.

Thank you so much uh brother jonathan.

I look forward to having you back on the program.

I want to thank all of you who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed weekend and lord's day.

And i hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than

you are.

A sinner.

Amen.

Thanks chris.