David Morrill Reports on SBC22

The Southern Baptist Convention and the Mood at SBC22

Hey everyone, welcome to the conversations that matter. Podcast travel edition here I got kind of a hotel room but this is kind of a monumental day for the Southern Baptist Convention and so I wanted to bring you some comments on it.

And so, David moral has been very gracious and being willing to join me to discuss this day, where you can find at protested calm. He was there at the convention and so being in the room, it definitely makes a difference so David thank you so much for just being willing to do this.

Thanks for having me john. I want to ask you, what are your thoughts and what are your, we'll start with a big Eva question type type loaded gospel coalition type question what are your feelings, your feelings.

Now, how do you feel about the same. It's kind of, it's what I expected on the same. You know that it's. I was at the CBN breakfast this morning and it was good to hear some of the some of the CBN leaders kind of talk and it was it was good to be in that in that era of optimism for sure.

But then to get in the hall and realize that the overwhelming what I think the overwhelming majority of messengers writer, largely ignorant on the details of these issues, or they were connected enough with the institution of the SPC that they have skin in the game to keep the status quo and of course Bart Barber is the status quo.

Yeah. Well, can you just walk us through what are the defeats and are there any silver linings that happened today. What, so I know obviously Tom Askew lost but what what other things happened that were significant.

Saddleback, Rick Warren, and the Credentials Fight

Well, one of the one, I thought one of the most significant things was there was there was some batting back and forth on their credentials committee dealing with Saddleback, and then Rick Warren is in the room.

And for some reason, given the microphone for as long as he wanted to have it to preach a little mini sermon about Rick Warren, and about Saddleback church. Most pointedly, he said that, you know, in typical Rick Warren fashion that Saddleback churches, as it was something like had more influence or save more people or something that all the seminaries combined or, you know, some very stuck up Rick Warren thing.

And, and yet other people that needed to talk about things that I thought were important like Jennifer Buck were cut off and and Ed Litton Ed Litton was very much controlling the microphone to his own benefits.

There was a gentleman there that kept he kept tacking on plagiarism to everything which I thought was very funny. And, but, but of course Ed Litton was shutting that down immediately you don't want to have that conversation.

And it was, it was exactly what I expected, but it was a little, you know, as far as the silver lining it seemed like the room was at least the vocal part of the room was leaning towards the the CBN Mike Askell, or I'm sorry, Mike Stone Tom Askell side of the debate.

And then yet when the vote hit it was like, like nobody, nobody cheered for Barbara's nomination the way they cheered for Tom Askell when Mike Stone was presenting the nomination. And yet when the vote hit.

It was like it was just a fait accompli everybody knew Barbara was going to win.

Yeah, including yourself apparently. I know, so, so the Saddleback Church issue was involving women pastors and the credentials committee. Apparently separating the office of pastor from the function of pastor and really putting their own spin on the Baptist faith and message.

I thought that was kind of ridiculous but they couldn't. They weren't able to overcome that on the convention floor which is interesting. Because it's so to my mind.

Right, I don't, I don't think there was any way that the platform was going to allow that conversation to go where it biblically needed to go, because it would have wound up with a straight plain obvious indictment of what Saddleback Church is doing.

So we, we have Southern Baptist churches right now that are. They have women pastors but what they do is they change the title of course of pastor to something else so she's a director or she's a minister or something she's still doing really the job of a pastor we just don't call her that and Saddleback flip that on its ear or turn it upside down, where they're, they're having women pastors ordaining women pastors but then they claim, well she's not really in the office of pastor even though we call her that it's it's it's backwards.

But it really fits with the Rick Warren, you know, purpose driven market church innovative version of this where even the language is up for debate, if it's effective, you know, the pragmatism pragmatism wins the day of course.

Sexual Abuse Task Force, Guidepost, and Baptist Polity

What about this issue of the sexual abuse task force, I know that was supposed to be the big issue coming into the convention it didn't seem to become the biggest one perhaps. And the thing that confused me is the chairman of the committee indicated that the standard of proof of due process would be met and included in this process of the list they're forming of all these accused sexual abusers, allegedly.

And he also said that this wouldn't change Baptist polity at all and I, I was confused by that because what I read from the recommendation seemed like it would do that. But can you just interpret that but parse it out for us.

And then what was there. Any pushback was the pushback just shut down.

There were there was some pushback but it seemed like the it seemed like the messengers in the room were largely. There were largely ignorant of the details so what happened was, you know, guideposts, the woke LGBTQ supporting firm that was hired by the sex abuse task force, and it really they might have officially been hired by the President of the EC but either way, they presented a whole list I mean close to 30 could have been over 30 recommendations to this to the Southern Baptist Convention, and the task force basically boiled it down to two recommendations that they actually wanted to bring to the convention floor, which were, they were more or less a like a ministry checklist website, where I guess ministers are going to be put on there, if they are convicted or credibly accused or, or something like this of abuse.

And then the other the other recommendation was basically to study the guideposts stuff and present what they think about it to the convention next year, the end Bruce Frank who was the chair of the abuse task force.

Basically was just he was just making the claim that this won't affect Baptist polity but I'm not sure how it can't affect Baptist polity right, you're going to wind up holding churches financially liable in some way at least through their cooperative program giving for the misdeeds or the poor.

The poor ecclesiology of other churches and other churches not doing what they're supposed to do in terms of mutual accountability and and regenerate membership and church discipline. And that has the potential of getting a lot of churches to say we're not going to subject our church giving to that to the misdeeds of others, and I think that would be appropriate in saying that.

Yeah, so. So that was overwhelmingly pass those recommendations from what I understand. And I know, obviously, the day before Cody bockham didn't win the President position of the pastors convention. Anything that we can point to that because we're conservatives able to get anything out of this or did they lose everything.

Conservative Defeat, the SBC Downgrade, and a Possible Split

I'm mostly lost everything. There's the resolutions that have been presented so far are pretty much nothing burgers and boilerplate kind of stuff tomorrow it'll be a little bit more interesting. But I but I think what we've the silver lining for me is that we've really confirmed that everything that we've suspected about the SBC is true.

You know every everything as far as how far it's gone and I mean it's to the point where the institutions and the leaders involved. They don't even agree on terminology anymore they don't agree on what a pastor is they don't agree on the definition of conservative Barbara calls himself a conservative and then has a whole list of issues and beliefs that really theologically speaking are not conservative.

And, but that's okay with the people in the room, you know he won the runoff, something like 61 of the vote. Yeah, there's a silver lining it's basically I think that conservatives and conservative churches at least at least it's obvious what's going on, I think it's made it clear what's going on there's not there's not a lot of confusion for those that want to want to be aware.

Any diagnosis on how we got to this point. I know there's probably a million things you could say, but especially most immediately. Was there something in a failed strategy that was implemented or could there have been something done that would have gained Tom Askew the victory in your opinion.

Calling Out False Doctrine and the Limits of Soft Pedaling

Well, I would argue and maybe it's just because of my polemical side, but I would I would argue that a lot of conservative pastors and members of the CBN and things they're not direct enough at calling out false doctrine when they see false doctrine.

They're too quick to assume that people teaching clear falsehood their brothers that that's always annoyed us about some of the guys that are on the CBN side is like, you just have to call this out you have to, you have to, you have to have the conflict where the conflict is it doesn't.

It does no good to call guys like Dwight McKissick brother, and have conversations on that basis or not call out false doctrine for what it is. Yeah, they're, they're all they're all still shaking hands and hugging and things like this all the time.

It's like, do we really believe these issues of life and death or not. I believe that they are, you know, false gospel is a life and death issue.

Yeah, same. I, that's one of the first things I mean I've been saying that for a while so I guess I'm a broken record but these issues are so fundamental that they destroy the very basis of Christianity some of them and to treat people who are advocating them like they're, they're brothers to, to soft pedal it to fight about more surface level things just hasn't done us any good.

What the SBC Vote Means for the Future

So, so you're going to be there tomorrow I take it as well. Yeah. Okay. What's what's going on tomorrow I mean are people leaving now or are they, or maybe the people that have flown in all the way to Anaheim probably don't have plane tickets or whatever until some, you know, tomorrow night or the next like I'm flying out tomorrow night and then probably people are leaving on Thursday or whatever but it wouldn't surprise me to see half the people in the convention hall that we saw today.

There was so much attention and so much of a flashpoint on the SBC presidency and probably for good reason because it's, it really is indicative of where things are going and it's an easy, it's an easy contest to understand it's much easier than trying to work through the resolutions of emotions or, you know, some of the, some of the other issues that the presidency is very binary and it's easy for people to understand.

And now that that's over. And very clearly, I mean just overwhelmingly if we can trust the vote I think we can going one way. There'll be a lot of folks that they're gonna have hard conversations when they go back to their churches for sure.

You know, for those of us on the more conservative side that's going to be, that's going to be the next conversation is, what does this tell us about the SBC, should we even be involved with this anymore.

What do you, what's your prediction for the next year at the SBC. What do you think will happen, do you think that it'll be a big split.

I don't see a big split coming this year. Bart Barber is, he's so vanilla. Bart Barber will not rock the boat one bit, he never has. He's always been the go along to get along institutionalist of the SBC.

And despite the fact that those of us that look deeper into what he preaches and believes, see a lot of problems I mean serious problems with a lot of what he believes and teaches and part of the part of the danger with him is he's not over, he's not as overtly false as some other guys, he's able to pepper it over with with an affable personality.

And that, that can be a little dangerous but I don't see him, I don't see him rocking the boat at all, which means that the conservative Baptist Network guys are going to live on to fight another year.

But, but other churches or churches that aren't necessarily as, as militant about this as they are, are going to have to decide whether they're comfortable sending money to the cooperative program knowing the direction it's going and especially in light of what may happen with the sex abuse task force in light of the fact that they might recommend next year that we have some sort of a cooperative program.

Can I call it a slush fund to pay off lawsuits? You know that's that's very much what it could end up being, which turns Baptist polity upside down. Now all of a sudden, now all of a sudden we're not much different than Episcopal's with regard to authority coming from the top towards the church and that's, you know, Baptists believe very clearly that the church, the local church is the ecclesiastical authority.

There's no, we don't have a mediator between, between us and, you know, Christ, it's the church and Christ, it's not the church, and then a committee and then this person and then a Pope and then Christ, you know, that's important to Baptists, at least it used to be.

Yeah, I'm not so sure anymore. I almost wonder if the stage wanted to promote the acceptance of Pato Baptist into the convention if they would vote for it. To be honest with you, it just seems to me like the doctrine doesn't seem to matter as much.

Conservative Discouragement, Church Discipline, and Leaving the SBC

What's the sense there right now. As far as, I mean, there's a feeling of defeatedness among the conservatives and and is there a lot of gloating going on. What's what's the temperature of the.

It seemed to me that the conservatives like I talked to I talked to Tom Askew very briefly. And I mean he seemed optimistic but I think I mean he's a mature enough, you know, leader within the conservative Baptist movement that he's going to put on a good face even if he's really disappointed.

But you know, they're going to live to fight another day. They're going to keep going. I mean, Rod Martin said at the at the breakfast this morning that, you know, he wasn't going anywhere. They're going to be here next year or the next year and the next year and the next year, which I'm not there for sure.

You know, the SPC is a parachurch ministry at best assuming that it's functioning well and doing what it's supposed to do very optional, you know, as as as you know, a lot of us like to say Christ did not die for the SPC.

Right and and if you know God's will can go forward with or without it for sure. We have to we have to we have to have a decision within our conscience as the spirit leads us to decide. Is this something that we can really be a part of without without sending anymore, you know, and it's gotten to that point I think.

Well, it would seem to me that if you carry this on year after year, which is already what's been going on. I mean, I kind of got off the wagon. I think my end point was last year and that was even in my opinion a year late, but that's just because COVID canceled.

They canceled it for COVID the one year, but that was the point where I made a video eight reasons to leave the SPC. And I just thought, you know, this is what's going to happen. People are going to filter out trickle out really every year as there's a defeat.

And then you're going to put in all these this time and resources into trying to show up to change the convention with an army that's smaller and smaller.

And I hate to mean while meanwhile Nam and Nam is planting churches in their mold in the very woke mold of Nam. So, so as conservative churches may leave, they're being replaced by Nam plants, which are, I mean, if you've seen their, their recruiting material and their church planting material, it's about as woke as it gets.

The send stuff, especially.

Final Reflections on the Convention and Reporting from Anaheim

Well, I appreciate you being there and just kind of you're there more to keep an eye on things as a press or you have a press pass. Is that what you're I do. Hey, how did you slip in? Okay. Eventually they're going to smoke me out.

Well, I appreciate you being willing to share. I mean, if you have any thoughts that you want to share that I didn't ask about, go right ahead.

No, it's, it's, it's what I thought was going to happen kind of happened. I'm a little disappointed because there's always, you know, you, you want to see the people that you align with theologically win.

And I am a committed Baptist in terms of Baptist polity and, you know, I'm a congregationalist and, and so the structure of it all makes a lot of sense to me, but it's still an organization filled with fallible human beings.

And there's enough money and enough influence floating around that it can be, if the churches aren't strong enough to stand up, it can be easily corrupted. And when you have a convention, you know, you have a meeting where, what is this something like 7 of churches are even represented, you know, the, the ones who are the most motivated to show up are the ones who are the most motivated to keep things the way they are.

And, and to keep the status quo. And that's not, that's not a recipe for stopping a downgrade. And there's a definite downgrade.

Oh, obviously. So, I mean, it's, it's even in little things that you see, like changing the word sin in a hymn to what they saying brokenness or something, but I tuned into the pastors. Were you at the pastors conference or no, did you go to that?

No, no, I flew in last night.

Oh yeah. Well, I watched part of that and I just was like, this is just, it's not good preaching first of all, but secondly, it's, it's completely vague and it's, it's a call. The theme seemed to be like a call for unity, but we didn't know exactly what it was that was making us disunit, unified, except maybe like, I think one of the pastors was saying being too pro-life, being too into your family and maybe loving the Bible too much.

Like what? That was a, that was the weirdest one that I heard. I think was one of, one of the pastors said something about that Jesus needs to be at the center of it. And sometimes we can, we can make the Bible, you know, the center of it and the Bible, the idol.

I like, so you're pitting the word against the word, huh? It doesn't make any sense.

You know, just triage, you know, what are the problems? You're in California, you're next to Disneyland and pride month. I don't get it. I feel like I would have enough things to talk about right there, but their, their problem is being pro-life.

But anyway, yeah, no, I agree with your assessment a hundred percent. And yeah, thank you for being willing to share this and people can go to, I'm sure you'll be writing about it, protestia .com, right?

Right. I'm trying, I'm, I'm basically trying to, as much as I can, live tweet the events as they happen on a protestia Twitter account, if anybody's on Twitter. And then, and then we're writing, we're keeping the articles churning on the website to try to keep, keep folks informed of exactly what's going on there.

Like we, we had an article about changing the lyric to the, you know, to the hymn as an example, even though we're trying to write about even the little details that we're seeing.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. Keeping the rest of us informed. God bless. And until next time, have a good night. Get some sleep. All right. Thanks brother. Yeah.