July 31, 2003

This is the Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now, with today's topic, here is

James White. Test, test, test, hey, listen to that, it works, first shot, we're getting better at this every time.

Ah, welcome to the Dividing Line, yes it is a Thursday evening, I'm expecting a rubber band or something much harder to fly around the corner at any moment and smack me in the head, but it's good to actually start a program and the microphone works first shot, that's a good thing.

Hey, let's test the phone lines now, 877 -753 -3341, maybe we can have

Colin and Katie Colin again and we can sing Happy Birthday again and explode the entire thing, just watch the smoke come out from the vents and everything, that'd be fun.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number if you want to get involved in the program tonight.

I don't know about the rest of you. I have been listening with a fairly large amount of dismay to the cultural discussion, if we want to call it that, that has been going on, well, of course, for quite some time, but especially that was prompted by the

President's press conference last evening. I have not had an opportunity,

I missed the Today Show this morning with all the Good Morning America Today, the one on NBC, whatever.

I didn't see any of that because I have grades due tomorrow for a seminary class that I taught during the summer and I've been sitting here working on that and I just can't keep up with everything.

So I didn't catch all of that and I wish that I had because I heard some interesting quotations out of it today, but I've been listening to primarily conservative talk show hosts and I've been listening to how they've been responding to this sudden, what seems to be massive forward movement of the gay rights agenda, in fact,

I'm not sure what I did with it here, but the Alliance Defense Fund, let's see here, here it is, reaching, reaching, there it is, the homosexual agenda exposing the principal threat to religious freedom today,

Alan Sears and Craig Austin, this is published by Broadman Holman from the

Alliance Defense Fund, I just got this in the mail, it was sent to us, the Alliance Defense Fund was the one that helped us with the situation with Barry Lynn where he wanted to try to suppress the videotapes of the debate that we did on Long Island and homosexuality and I've been reading through some sections of that and the tremendous double standard, the fact that these individuals do not want equal rights, they want super rights, based upon sexual behavior, it truly is just an absolutely incredible situation that our society is facing today in regards to this and obviously given that you have no more than 3 % of the population that practices homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle, a very small minority of people with a tremendous amount, a completely out of line amount of political clout, they have much more money on average than a heterosexual does for the obvious reason that we heterosexuals who are married give of our lives to our children and we have to pay for things like clothing and schooling and food and medical care for our children and they don't have to do that and therefore they've got a tremendous amount of money and so they have all this political clout because money means clout in a corrupted system where justice and righteousness is no longer the standard, what is good for the nation is no longer the standard, it's just I want to be elected and I will do whatever it takes to get elected, which unfortunately is how it works pretty much on both sides of the aisle anymore sadly, be that as it may,

I've been very disturbed as I have listened to conservative voices responding to these issues, just today listening to the ruckus that has been raised over President Bush saying, talk about something absolutely radical for a president to say we are all sinners, now let's face it folks, that was what made a lot of people really angry, is that we are all sinners, let's face it, that's something you might say in Texas but that's not exactly what is said in most people's thinking today, that was what was offensive especially in the context of addressing the issue of marriage and then the man dared to say that he believes that marriage is between a man and a woman and now

I'm not surprised at all that the radical leftists, the darlings of the media are running about lamenting such bigotry,

I mean that's just how they do things, that's how they talk, that's how they think, that's how they act, that's just the way things are, what concerns me is how the response is being framed to this kind of a situation,

I listened because I was I had a dentist appointment today,

I got to drive halfway across the valley and back again, this is a big valley so I got to listen to the comments both of Rush Limbaugh and of Michael Medved, now most of the time they're pretty much on the same page but not always and I got to listen to both of them address this issue today on the way out and on the way back from my appointment and in the process over and over again

I heard the same thing and I've heard this especially with with Michael Medved, this has surprised me just a little bit in the way that he that he approaches this but this seems to be the way that things are being stated and from my perspective as I understand biblical revelation and biblical truth this is not a foundation for doing something that is right and righteous but in essence what is being said is look, marriage should be defined by the majority perspective and the vast majority of Americans believe it should be this way, now

I know people say well you need to understand the political reality of our society, you need to understand the the idea of of being elected and then the fact that you know we're dealing with a certain society, these people have have you know been trained by the the the

NEA trained schools and and all the rest of that stuff and so we need to be careful how we say things but the fact the matter is folks the only meaningful sound basis for defining the institution of marriage is going back to when it was established and when we do so we have to deal with the fact that either law either law is based upon God's revelation of himself and the fact that he is our creator he is the one who made us he is the one who designed us and he has the right to reveal his law to us and say this is what

I have designed you to be this is my intention my purpose you will find fulfillment you will find happiness when you behave act and think in this way you either go back to that or we have anarchy and to hear conservatives saying that what's right and wrong is dependent upon polls is dependent upon the vast majority of Americans think that that is that is an abdication to the very people who have destroyed the truth that this was once a nation of laws not a nation of men

I mean the laws that established this nation were based upon the recognition of the sinfulness of man the fact that we need to have law that is unchanging that isn't based upon the whims of men but is in fact something that is based upon the revelation of God that is what constrains and holds man back in his constant desire to rebel that was part and parcel the thinking of many of those individuals and even those who were not avowed

Christians were still deeply influenced by that worldview so to hear modern commentators in essence abandoning ship and abandoning the foundation and and adopting the very platform of the other side that says there is no objective truth there is no revelation from God we cannot continue to look at mankind as if he is the creation of God as if God's law has any relevance here to do that what what what will be the end result of that there's no possibility of continuing to hold these things together and to to defend the

Christian worldview which really is the foundation here I mean when you get right down to it you look at Islam for example there's the possibility of plural marriage within Islamic law and things like that and and so the idea of the

American concept of a family of a man and a woman and commitment and the raising of children and all those things that we call traditional family values they had an origin and a source in the

Christian scriptures and a recognition that God is our creator and God has the right to tell us what's right and what's wrong and so once you once you stop admitting that then you have cut yourself adrift from history you have no background any longer upon which to rely and what are we supposed to accomplish here huh it's it's just it's just it's just a sad sad thing to hear this taking place and it to see the speed with which is coming now some people say it's happening so quickly there may be a backlash and it's true when 97 % of the population does not embrace a particular behavior the 3 % when they start pushing themselves may indeed experience a backlash but then there's a because of the the adoption of a postmodern mindset a anti -christian humanistic mindset the idea that there is a right and wrong being completely abandoned and rejected by a majority of people you have those individuals who while they are not homosexuals have been quite simply brainwashed have had their minds just just removed so you do not see how sexual behavior and sexual activity impacts all of one's life even though it's obvious that it does and so they'll they will buy into any of this they're they're just the people who are just absolutely bent upon throwing off any form of God's revelation of himself and a revelation of his his law in our lives it is just it is just an amazing thing so when we see the perversion of justice going on within our society when we see certain in certain political forces circumventing the

Constitution circumventing even the will of the people because they they are even more radical they they have not even they don't even have the patience to allow the poison to circulate through the entirety of the the body politic when you see them pushing ahead like this they just they are just expressing their their complete hatred toward God this this one

I think it was a congresswoman from from Colorado I think it was that was saying this morning and I could not help as I'm driving along to just chuckle in sadness as she is going after President Bush and she's saying this is totally wrong it is unacceptable

I do not accept it totally wrong on what basis what foundation do you have totally wrong define your basis of wrong where do you get any of this these people are never forced in a situation where they have to actually give some sort of meaningful thought process behind their statements it's an amazing thing to listen to you know and it it forces me back into into the scriptures and to consider the importance of the the concept of justice in regards to God I remember back in in seminary we were translating from the

Psalms in one of the many Hebrew classes that I took and Psalm 97 2 reads clouds and thick darkness surround him righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne that Zedekh Zedekhah righteousness and justice justice mishpat that that concept are the foundation of his throne his very rulership is based upon this concept of righteousness and justice and this is to be reflective within within the

Jewish system the judges who gave out God's law and gave out

God's they stood in the place of God that's what even called God Psalm 82 vindicate the weak and fatherless do justice to the afflicted and destitute who is that addressed to the judges who were called

God's when a person is placed in that position of being a judge they are placed a position of exercising

God's very judgment and they are held accountable for that I know there's there there are Christians who would disagree with me of that they would say oh no no no no no no no no a judge will not be held accountable for what he does the judge or she does the judge they will only be held accountable for what they do as individuals and not their position as judges

I I don't understand that I don't understand that concept I guess it comes from maybe some eschatological viewpoints or stuff like that I don't know but I I don't understand that I think that a person who is given that kind of authority in God's Providence therefore must exercise it in a way that they can give an account unto

God for what they have done I really think that that's the case I know many would say no no but that's that's that's my perspective and a a nation that finds itself filled with unrighteous judges it's not the unrighteous judges that are going to bring

God's judgment upon us the unrighteous judges are the evidence of God's judgment upon us unrighteous judges are a plague on the land the perversion of justice is a part of God's wrath being poured out against the godlessness of Western civilization as a whole and let's face it at least we haven't gone as far as most of Western nations have today look what's going on up in Canada and I know we've got some friends up in Canada there's some folks listening right now up in Canada but they will tell you this whole concept of of gay marriage the total disregard for God's law in regards to the very nature of sexuality the very nature of the marriage covenant all of that is simply being thrown out and the leftists in in our nation are absolutely determined to follow in line with what goes on north of the border and in Europe and we see that those nations have truly just simply with with abandon and with glee and thanks to the educational system ignorance in the part of most people completely and totally overthrown their own history they have overthrown their own foundations and what system can possibly continue on over time when you destroy your own foundations no system can no system of government can do so and we in the

United States are actively seeing large groups of people seeking to destroy the foundations upon which this nation was built that is absolutely positively unquestionable we see it all around us and so what are

Christians to do well you know there there are some who who will say well you know we need to we need to be wise and how we respond to this and of course we need to be wise there's no question of need of wisdom but what does that mean well you know we we need to recognize that people don't respond well to to black and white thinking that's because their minds have been muddled you know those who say well you know we need to try to adopt the tactics of the other side well then if you adopt the tactics of the other side if you adopt the tactics of the enemies of God and God's law who are seeking to pervert

God's law and and destroy the institution of marriage and and force homosexual rights quote -unquote down our throats and abortion rights down our throat and and corrupt our children our marriages and our families and and don't you think for a second they're not going to then seek as they are in Canada as well to take away our free speech right so that we will not even have a right to do this we'll have to go underground to say the kind of things we're saying right now in the not -too -distant future and there's many people who would like to see that if we if we adopt their tactics can we promote

God's truth through a system that is that is opposed to his truth that I do not understand that I cannot begin to understand

I don't see how the prophets did that it's not a matter of embrace not a matter of saying well we need to treat them as post modernists no folks remember something man whether he wants to acknowledge it or not is still created in the

Imago Dei the image of God that remains the apologetic point of contact and you see no matter how often the the natural man seeks to banish the thought of the

Creator from his mind it is still there it is still part and parcel of his created nature and that becomes the point of apologetic contact man knows homosexuals know that homosexuality is wrong they know it's wrong they're the guilty conscience that they have the fact that they have to band together in groups to to go out and do their public displays of their perversion in their gay pride marches is further testimony that they recognize the sinfulness of their actions and it's a fulfillment of Romans one they know that those who practice these things are worthy of death but they not only practice them but they encourage others to engage in those very same activities this is what we see going on around us all the time these people are still created in the image of God that is the contact that's the contact point that you have with the unbeliever it is not adopting his methodologies it's not adopting his perspectives and approaching him as if we try as if we in some way shape or form can convince them through non -spiritual means to adopt truth that makes no sense and so it is it is a sad thing to hear and I know

Michael Medved is is not a believer in Jesus Christ I don't know what the what the

Rush Limbaugh's state of soul is I don't get the feeling that he is either and so I guess

I shouldn't be overly surprised but certainly those of us who look to the

Word of God should see what the real issues here are and should recognize that and and I know in our society you're you are going to be looked down upon fine we're already looked down upon why should we care for look down upon more we need to start saying look you folks are anti -christian bigots you do not want me to exercise my religious rights you do not want me to have the freedom to believe what

I believe and I'm not going to act like a second -class citizen anymore I'm going to use the rights that I have while I've still got them and I'm gonna speak out and I'm gonna say that you are wrong you are morally wrong to say and do what you're doing you've got to do that I just well anyways

I've been I guess I've been preaching haven't I it's it's troubling it is very very troubling to me to see people defending a position that is true but defending it in a way that is inconsistent with the truth that's being defended you know what

I mean it's marriage is not defined as one man and one woman because the majority of people think that that is the the myth that this somehow is a

Greek democracy where majority determines truth that has never been the case and the fact of the founding fathers did not give the vote to everyone they designed it in such a way that people who would know something about responsibility and the law that those are the ones who made those kinds of decisions might tell you a little something about where they were coming from there has been and it

I'm not the first one to say this many people have said this but there has been a not overly silent but pretty much ignored by everyone revolution in this nation if you if you define a revolution as a change in the foundations of the governing system that has already taken place we're just seeing the results and we may well be facing a day when our freedoms freedoms we have to say but we're saying right now will be challenged and taken away and that's already taking place north the border where you cannot even publish certain

I'm not sure you know how do they get away with publishing Bibles in Canada do they publish Bibles in Canada do they have to take out

Deuteronomy 22 and Romans 1 and Genesis 18 and 19 isn't amazing you can publish books in a certain nation but you can't buy space in a newspaper to publish the same stuff oh my my my and if you think that the people who defend free speech will come to our aid remember

Barry Lynn Barry Lynn the great defender of the

First Amendment but in reality that First Amendment is only in their thinking meant to defend their freedom to say whatever they want it is not meant to defend our freedom of speech at all and his actions made that very very clear so yes one of our faithful friendly

Canadians is glaring at me in channel but if that individual would like to explain to me where I'm wrong in what

I have said concerning things north of the border then

I would be happy to hear what he has to say but that seems to be the situation well anyway

I now feel better but that doesn't really accomplish a whole much a whole lot eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

I don't see any indication on ye olde computer screen that anyone has picked up their phones to join us this evening yes there are none eight seven seven seven five three three three four one you don't have to you don't have to you know comment on that if you have other questions on other subjects that we've addressed that's fine no problem whatsoever but that's right

I'm not wrong and I know you hate it just as much as I do but it's you're stuck with it my friend since you live up there and it's it's like what was it back in the 70s acid rain it is now coming our direction and eating away at the fabric of our society just as it has done so up there north the border and in Europe and yes in jolly old

England it is amazing to think that in the lands of of Charles Haddon Spurgeon and in the land of John Knox and and people like that that that this kind of utter degradation now now reigns supreme well it seems that Americans are absolutely intent upon well quite simply upon ignoring that and as long as our 401ks are doing fine all is well and our 401ks are doing better so must be must be a good thing now eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we're gonna take a break and give you all time to go running to your phones that you can join the program today and when we come back if that hasn't taken place we'll press on from there eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we'll be right back it's all righteousness you know answering those who claim that only the

King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611 you can order your copy of James White's book the

King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin

.org what is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios no dr.

Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

James White replies to dr. Geisler but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply it is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen but free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at AO men .org

this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church the

Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God the proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church the elders and people of the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day the morning

Bible study begins at 930 a .m. and the worship service is at 1045 evening services are at 630 p .m.

on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805

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where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day millions of petitioners from around the world are employing

Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book

Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and sites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic he traces how

Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed

Queen of Heaven viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the

Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the

Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth you can order your copy of James White's book

Mary another Redeemer at AOMN .org and welcome back to Dividing Line my name is

James White and we are talking about well we're going to talk about whatever the callers want to talk about this evening

I got to get on my soapbox for half an hour and you endured all of that and so now we let the callers sort of drive the car here and let's start with Jonathan in southern

Florida hello Jonathan hi there James I appreciate your ministry so much well thank you for calling in today yeah by the way you're very faint on the phone

I can barely hear you all right well I don't that's my phone or yours okay go ahead okay and just a quick question concerning the transitional issue of the book of Acts I've recently listened to all your teachings on Reformed theology and become a consequently which is rather awkward since I'm in a

Pentecostal Church ah okay yeah but my question is I'm struggling with like Acts 8 for instance when

Simon seems to make a conversion to Christ when there seems to be like a quick apostasy how would

I go about in defending the Reformed position in light of their own verses if you're talking about Simon Magus I don't know anyone who would think that the man was a was a believer in Christ I mean obviously there are many people who who confess some sort of a religious experience but that's that's the whole point of the parable of the soils is that when the when the word goes out there's all these different kinds of responses to it and many of those responses simply do not result in any fruit and they the individual is is you have this the shallow soil the rocky soil the thorns so on so forth but none of them result in any fruit and so that's what you have with with people in Jesus ministry and the disciples experience the same thing so I I certainly wouldn't think that anyone would argue that Simon was actually a regenerate individual yeah

I would hold to the same position you just given me there I just found it a bit difficult to explain that for you because he seems to make an outward profession to water baptism well so there does water baptism isn't what saves you there are many a person who has walked through the waters of baptism and that baptism does not change the heart so yeah the fact that he's called called by the the

Apostles what he is shows the the nature of his heart yeah that's what that's what

I thought because I believe a few verses down it kind of says that he had wickedness in his heart yeah obviously not regenerated yep quite true so within the context it is explainable yes it is most definitely so where are you at in southern

Florida okay I'm listening okay because I'll be in the big debate coming up December 5th in Tampa with with Gregory Stafford on the subject of the deity of Christ so hopefully you'll you'll be able to make that I would look to do that all right thanks a lot

Jonathan thanks for calling today thank you all right god bless bye -bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one that's the number that Joanna in Michigan called hello hi good evening how are you good good good you got turn that that computer down the background or it's gonna sound really weird okay do that that's much better thank you okay yes ma 'am okay yeah the reason

I was calling um the I have a copy of a book called

Spurgeon and hyper Calvinism are you familiar with that book at all who's it by it's by a guy named

Ian Murray and I thought that was called the Forgotten Spurgeon I think they're two separate books okay

I think the Forgotten Spurgeon is where he talks about how

Spurgeon defends against Arminianism and this one is where Spurgeon sort of defends against hyper

Calvinism uh -huh and there is what I'm calling is in this book he seems to represent the

Spurgeon um kind of take like in with regards to first Timothy 2 for mm -hmm in this book he seems to take the position that Spurgeon says that like that God desires all to be saved that all means all yeah that's what

Spurgeon said about first Timothy 2 for he was wrong I mean let's face it Spurgeon did not interact with any exegesis of the text deals with the context of all men rulers and knows an authority what comes before what comes after he didn't interact with 2 5 and issue of mediation so why he didn't interact with those things it's not like those those understandings were not already available at least in latent form and John Owen and others

I do not know but Spurgeon was not infallible and he did take the view the first Timothy 2 for expressed and others

I think John Murray took the view that first Timothy 2 for expresses a a some some kind of a universal salvific will that for some reason

God does not choose to act upon and does not choose to bring to fruition that it is it is a more of a decreed of will the scent not a decree of will but a it's more of saying it's it's like God says do not murder and yet part of his his decree is that murder will exist and so they would say this is similar to the same thing is that there's this this general salvific will but it's different from the specific decree of God that includes the elect that Spurgeon speaks of in other places and so there are those who take that view

I I do not take that view of the passage I think that exegetically when you look at the passage and allow it to speak for itself in regards to what all men means that that's that's self -evident as to what it's referring to exegetically but Spurgeon did not say

I've looked at that and I reject it he just simply said what he said okay okay well thank you you're most welcome all right bye -bye all right let's keep those phone lines buzzing we've got two more of calls online that means folks are coming in they're calling in this evening and that's great let's talk with Jesse in utopia

I have no idea what ON is Ontario Ontario oh someone could have said something about Canada that would have helped me to understand that but anyway yes the utopia the utopia where where where men can marry men right unfortunately yes we

I actually heard your comments and then I had to click off the computer because I'm on dial up and then run over the phone you're not the only one that that's how it works but anyway yes sir what can we do for you um yeah

I was I was just going to mention a couple things in keeping with the whole homosexual issue then

I had a quick question hopefully I don't monopolize the time sure we you probably heard about the stars stock this big concert that I had in Toronto here yesterday no

I didn't tell me well they had a big they had a big concert in Toronto to I guess get popularity for Toronto after it had after it went through the big hit on tourism dude oh yeah

I did hear about that yeah yeah well anyways right now in Vancouver they're having gay pride week oh it's now to a week now a whole week yeah soon it'll be a month and then it'll be you know here's the time who knows anyways but but they are complaining out there and I'm not exactly sure if they're complaining that the government didn't throw enough money into gay pride week or if they're complaining that the money that the government didn't throw money at them to hold some sort of a similar concert gain approval and tourism popularity for Vancouver thing but if it is you know if it's the whole we need more money for our gay pride week

I mean that's kind of in keeping with you know BC out there well and that's becoming yeah and it's becoming more and more across Canada well and across the

United States especially California California and Canada both start with CA it's not very hidden anymore and sadly in in both those places your money the morality of of the the left is that your money should be used to promote worldviews that are directly abhorrent to your religious beliefs yeah we just need to understand that is honestly what is being said and people need to start saying that and saying it repeatedly and out loud because it's wrong to do that even on their basis it's wrong so you know it's it's it's amazing yeah it really is and at least on the books right now in Ontario if I was to stand up and preach against homosexuality from the pulpit on the books legally

I could be charged with a hate crime I know it's common in our own nation and has nothing has been done along those lines yet is someone going to try to in essence bring it into the court to force a a decision or is that given the nature of the

Supreme Court in Canada is that not what you want to see happen probably not what we want to see happen right now actually but it is actually that's the way that the laws would read and thankfully they're not enforcing it yeah but should they desire to do so they have the legal right mm -hmm well my what was your question because we've got

Gary and Adam online waiting as well all right I'll fire this one off quickly it has to do with the dreaded

L on the acrostic yes uh -huh um let's go ahead and switch topics while we're at it let's make sure everyone knows there is no really direct or logical connection between particular redemption the previous topic anyways um yeah

I uh I was recently talking with someone and just to make a long story short he did not subscribe to limited atonement he was a twipper but he held to a belief that there is a real uh propitiation a real redemption not just a potential one for all men without distinction and exception and he held this uh the only sin that would condemn a man is not accepting

Jesus Christ right and he had this this belief that all men are really and truly redeemed all men without exception and I took him to Revelation 5 9 uh where it says they sang a new song saying you are worthy to take the scroll and open it seals for you are slain and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe and nation and uh tribe tribe and tongue people and nations and I suggested to him that this this verse would in my opinion be a death blow to his opinion because it says that they are redeemed out of every kindred tribe and nation now am

I exegetically weak on that or is that highly suggestive in the time well it's interesting

I I had up because you know you never know how many calls were you get or what kind of calls we get and so I had up uh more of Dave Hunt stuff and I I a couple weeks ago had put this material together and I had 13 uh clips we've done the first seven of them and the 11th which

I was going to get to this evening if we didn't have calls the 11th uh here's what I had put as my notes so I I could sort of introduce it and make comments on after it played this is the 11th cut what is your view of limited atonement mainly and commenting then hunt says

Christ paid the penalty for every man note revelation five and how silly the statement is if universal atonement is correct that I'm reading you what

I wrote a couple of weeks ago and that's exactly what you just said and that is if there is a a true substitutionary atonement uh that is made so that this redemption is not just a theoretical redemption but it's a real redemption uh then revelation five does strike me as being a death blow because it it becomes a nonsensical passage if in point of fact um what you have going on is is that this this redemption has to be somehow differentiated from purchase hello from purchased with your blood you still there yeah okay

I'm not sure what happened I don't know either I I must have been uh someone on the other side of the wall uh experiment

I wonder what this button would do anyway uh uh

I I agree a thousand percent the the if in fact what we have in revelation chapter five is a reference um to the the relationship between Christ's atoning work and the actual accomplishment of salvation itself uh then yes revelation five is directly addressing that and it just simply makes no sense uh if a a universal substitutionary atonement is actually the biblical teaching so I I think you're you're right on right on the ball there all righty all right well you keep uh serving lord up there in Canada and we'll pray for you and your foreign missions work thank you very much all righty sir bye bye bye bye all right uh the the calls keep on coming uh let's go on to gary in abilene texas hello gary hello dr white how you doing all right how you doing doing all right you down there in texas i'm down here in texas yes where it's as much a state of mind as it is state of the union hey uh well you know i i think y 'all should just you're big enough i think y 'all could secede and get rid of all this weirdness and uh and i think i think we might just move on down there except it's just too it's just too flat my thoughts exactly sir i'm sorry i i am just so politically incorrect when i start making making comments about someone's accent but uh hey you know i just i just i drove from houston home last month and that was that you know there ain't much in west texas did you know that have you ever been to ozona texas ozona texas yes i have used to hunt there you used to hunt there well what were you shooting four -legged bambi four -legged bambi so let me tell you something there ain't a whole lot there oh sure there is oh please a lot of teeth well there you go anyhow well anyway the girls in arizona love us they love our accent oh yeah well sure yeah uh -huh okay anyways you want you wanted to talk about john 3 16 yes sir i did okay uh before i get into that can i throw something in right quick sure on the idea of homosexuality uh well coming from texas you that is the same state where the president's from so i might that might give you uh even more of a basis to say something i think everybody ought to send in a letter to the bravo channels about three weeks ago after they passed that sodomy law yes uh on one particular sunday the whole day was nothing but gay marriages oh good grief and i've never seen nothing like that in my life well didn't aren't they the ones who started this uh gay gay gay guy gay eye for the straight guy or didn't that come from it initially come from bravo as well did i i was my recollection that it first yeah see um rich says i'm right i think that's where they they that started that what did it get pick up picked up by the national media nbc or something i don't know anyway yeah these these media types are very much uh very much supportive of all this kind of stuff so it's uh yeah i i agree we should but anyways on to john 316 because we've uh amazingly enough have lots of callers today it's lots of fun so why i wanted to talk about john 316 is uh james is uh god's laid this on my heart several months ago this particular scripture and uh i've been struggling with it everything i've listened to your ministry and your sermons from your church and as well as the one that you did on the 22nd and did you read uh the fairly lengthy discussion of this passage verses 16 and 17 on our website in my response to dave hunt yes okay good yes and i was wondering if have you ever written a book um pertaining to this issue to john 316 no to just the verse well just the verse and just the way you describe it so so eloquently and no i mean i've addressed it within the context of uh well you know now that i think about it uh probably just just basic comments i don't think i've put anything in a book whether it's god's sovereign grace or the potter's freedom um that was as full as the open letter now i did in the um debating calvinism book will be coming out in february from multnomah with dave hunt i obviously had to address this rather fully but um i only had the opportunity of addressing it within a two thousand word response to one of dave's presentations so i had to cut out uh probably about 40 percent of what's in the open letter response so the open letter response is probably the longest um section and that's why i'm seeing websites popping up well not websites but individuals popping up responses to it on various and sundry websites in fact i got an email from a guy uh just yesterday that said hey i've refuted you here and and i go and look at and he says now i've not read dave hunt's book and i i don't know anything about this argument's going on however here's my comments and i'm like oh great that's that's real useful so i think that's about the longest thing there's the way you describe it and talk about it like on the 22nd is the best i've ever heard anybody put it and that's the way god put it in my heart is the way he wants it understood but so many people misinterpret it oh i i know and it's like it's brainwashed into well it's not just brainwashed tradition man it's tradition that's that's what we're looking at is traditional what i'd like to see james is maybe if you couldn't put that the way that description into some type of handout booklet you mean like a uh like a track type thing yes i think so many people fall short because of john 316 because it is the first verse we learned well you know that's not a bad idea because one of the things we started doing and uh you know uh you're you're you're talking to half of the staff and you talk to the other half of the staff when you're called in so uh we're small ministry one things we we did start doing once was putting together these what we call electronic tracks and and even now they exist on the website and uh hence it'd be something that you could um uh download and print in a in a uh uh in a format that would allow you or give it to somebody or something like that exactly and uh that that's certainly an adobe pdf format and that'd be something it wouldn't be all that difficult to do to take the comments as i gave them to uh to dave and to present it in a in an understandable way that's that's certainly something we could put on the uh put on the table and try to get done because really the way that you teach it is it's so hard for the common person the common believer to to get that understanding across to another person it's not because the text is difficult it's just because of the the presence of having heard it used in another way over and over and over again that's what that's what makes it difficult it's not that language is difficult it's just the tradition stands right and you just you just you just breeze right through it and it's just it amazes me and and i sit there and listen to it and listen to it and i wrote it down so i can learn to explain it the way you do and well i'll tell you what i what i'll do for you there is that uh you know i could maybe i could just record it in in sort of for texans you know we could we could give john 316 for texans how how does that sound that sounds great in fact we got somebody in channel named cow poet he writes cowboy poetry maybe we could have him help us out with that a little bit and i am in channel every once a while under fishermen by the way oh okay well you may have seen cow poet in there you know we could we'll get a picture of him on the front of it because he looks like a cowboy and i hope to make that cruise with you guys in december well good uh that's uh i'm looking forward to it myself i was talking with michael fallon about today so excellent brother well thank you very much we're going to try to sneak adam in real quick here so i'll need to let you go gary and talk to you later god bless you and let's go ahead and real quickly run over to adam hey what is this two texans in a row uh texas has risen again how are you doing adam i'm i'm doing really well well see that i can tell you're in texas too how far from abilene is vernon um my goodness i you know i've been to abilene several times but never from vernon okay so i you know just a general is it east west north or south i think kind of to the west southwest okay all right sir what can we do for you well i've got a question about romans 126 and 27 right and uh just uh and a seeming coincidence somebody sent me the other day uh just a question about that and they sent me a bunch of links to some i guess pro -homosexual interpretations of those texts okay let me ask you real quick where adam have you um seen my book called the same -sex controversy i was considering buying it actually yours was the first site i went to after right right uh one of the chapters uh jeff neal and i co -wrote that one of the chapters that i specifically wrote uh myself was on romans chapter one that was one of the focuses uh that i i worked on and so there's a there's a lengthy section there obviously i went over it in the debate with barry lynn as well uh but you're right there's a tremendous amount of stuff written out there that basically tries to remove this from being relevant to the issue of homosexuality was there a particular perspective of that you wanted to uh ask about yeah um the the interpretation that a lot of the it was mostly just like i said websites a lot of things that i read were the direction they were going was um because it's natural for a gay person to be gay right um they could not actually commit an unnatural act by um having sex with another man right and so i mean that was basically the argument but it's not that doesn't have anything to do with with genuinely homosexual people because it wouldn't be unnatural for them to do that right so they're yeah as if the apostle paul would have that concept within his own thinking it's interesting when you if you would start to list the arguments that pro -homosexuals use on a biblical basis one of the one of the normal arguments about romans one is that paul could not be addressing modern concepts of homosexuality because he did not know of modern loving uh committed homosexual relationships i would dispute every one of those terms by the way but that's the terminology they'll use when you think about it that's an argument against what you just said because the only way that the argument that you just presented could have any meaning in the text is if paul did know and in fact believed that there was this natural concept the problem is when you look at natural function uh for example verse 27 the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman well what is that that is natural sexual intercourse between male and female that is clearly what is what is uh uh presented there and so then when it says for their women exchange the natural function for that which is unnatural and the same way also the men abandon the natural function of the woman and burn in their desire toward one another if you put those three phrases together then the unnatural has just been defined as men burning in their desires toward one another right so you have both male homosexuality adult by the way because the third common argument here is that paul's only talking about a a situation of pederasty here and not about uh adult male with adult male homosexuality all of those fall when you simply allow those the text to define itself um the natural function male and female so the woman uh abandoning that is lesbianism the men abandoning that male homosexuality men with men committing indecent acts and receiving their own persons due penalty of their error when i asked barry lynn about that phrase when it talked about degrading passions and indecent acts you know what his argument here was that that there is that that paul is only talking about sin before verse 26 and after verse 27 and he literally said in the debate degrading passions and indecent acts are not sins if you can believe that well you might want to listen to that debate because it might be very very interesting and i did address that in the book and i hope you can get uh get hold of that thank you adam for calling from texas tonight gary uh jessie everyone else who called in joanna thank you very much for making the program uh what it is thank you for listening and lord willing we'll see you next tuesday morning god bless that's a o m i n dot o r g where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next tuesday morning at 11 a .m