July 31, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Opening the Program and the Cultural Debate Over Marriage

Test test. Hey, listen to that. It works first shot. We're getting better at this every time. Welcome to the dividing line. Yes, it is a Evening. I'm expecting a rubber band or something much harder to fly around the corner at any moment and smack me in the head.

But it's good to actually start a program and the microphone works first shot. That's a good thing. Hey, let's test the phone lines now. 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 may we can have Colin and Katie Colin again, and we can sing happy birthday again and explode the entire thing.

Just watch the smoke come out from the vents and everything. That'd be fun. 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number if you want to get involved in the program tonight. I don't know about the rest of you.

I have been listening with a Fairly large amount of dismay to the cultural discussion if we want to Call it that. That has been going on. Well, of course for quite some time, but especially that was prompted by the president's press conference Last evening.

I have not had an opportunity. I missed the the today show this morning with all the good morning. Good morning America today something at one on NBC, whatever. I Didn't see any of that because I I'm I'm have grades due tomorrow for a seminary class that I taught during the summer and I've been sitting here working on that and I just I just can't keep up with everything and So I didn't catch all of that and I wish that I had because I heard some interesting quotations out of it today, but but I've been listening to primarily conservative talk show hosts and I've been listening to how they've been responding to this sudden what seems to be massive Forward movement of the gay rights Agenda, in fact, I'm not sure what I did with it here, but the Alliance defense fund.

Let's see here. Here it is reaching reaching. There it is the homosexual agenda exposing the principal threat to religious freedom today. Alan Sears and Craig Austin. This is published by Brodman Holman from the Alliance defense fund.

I just got this in the mail was sent to us. Alliance defense fund was the one that helped us with the Situation with Barry Lynn where he wanted to try to suppress the videotapes of the debate that we did on Long Island and homosexuality and I've been reading through some sections of that and the the tremendous double standard the the the fact that these Individuals do not want equal rights.

They want super rights based upon sexual behavior. It is it truly is just an absolutely incredible situation that our our society is facing today in regards to this and obviously given that you have no more than 3 of the population that Practices homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle a very small minority of people with a tremendous amount a completely out of line Amount of political clout.

They have much more money on average than a heterosexual does for the obvious reason That we heterosexuals who are married Give of our lives to our children and we we have to pay for things like clothing and schooling and food and medical care for our children and they don't have to do that and therefore they've got a tremendous amount of money and So they have all this political clout because money means clout in a corrupted System where where justice and righteousness is no longer the standard what is good for the nation is no longer standard.

It's just I want to be elected and I will do whatever it takes to get elected. Which unfortunately is how it works pretty much on both sides of the aisle anymore. Sadly be that as it may I've been very disturbed as I have listened to conservative voices responding to these issues just today listening to the The ruckus that has been raised over President Bush saying talk about something absolutely radical for a president to say We are all Sinners now, let's face it folks.

That was what made a lot of people really angry is that we are all sinners. Let's face it. That's something you might say in Texas, but that's not exactly what is said in most. Most people's thinking today that was what was offensive.

Especially in the context of addressing the issue of marriage and then the man dared to say That he believes that marriage is between a man and a woman and now I'm not surprised at all that the radical leftists the darlings of the media are running about lamenting such Such a bigotry.

I mean, that's that's just how they do things. That's that's how they talk. That's how they think. That's how they they act. That's just the way things are. What concerns me is how the response is being framed?

To the the this this kind of a situation. I listened because I was. Because I was. I had a dentist appointment today I got to drive halfway across the valley and back again. This is a big valley. So I got to listen to the comments both of Rush Limbaugh and of Michael Medved now most of the time they're pretty much on the same page, but not always and I got to listen to both of them address this issue today on the way out and on the way back.

From my appointment and in the process. Over and over again. I heard the same thing and I've heard this especially With with Michael Medved and this has surprised me just a little bit in the way that he that he approaches this.

But this seems to be the way that things are being stated and from my perspective as I understand biblical revelation and biblical truth. This is not a foundation for doing something that is right and righteous, but in essence what is being said is look.

Marriage should be defined by the majority perspective and the vast majority of Americans believe it should be this way. Now I know people say well, you need to understand the political reality of our society.

You need to understand the the idea of Being elected and then the fact that you know, we're dealing with a certain society. These people have have uh, you know, uh been trained by the uh, the the nea.

Uh trained schools and and all the rest of that stuff. And so we need to be careful how we say things but the fact of matter is folks the only meaningful sound basis. For defining the institution of marriage is going back to when it was established.

And when we do so we have to deal with the fact that either law. Either law is based upon God's revelation of himself and the fact that he is our creator. He is the one who made us he is the one who designed us.

And he has the right to reveal his law to us and say this is what I have designed you to be. This is my intention my purpose you will find fulfillment. You will find happiness when you behave act and think in this way.

You either go back to that or we have anarchy. And to hear conservatives saying that what's right and wrong is dependent upon polls. Is dependent upon the vast majority of americans think. That that is that is an abdication to the very people who have destroyed.

The truth that this was once a nation of laws not a nation of men. I mean the laws that that established this nation. Were based upon the recognition the sinfulness of man the fact that we need to have Law that is unchanging that isn't based upon the whims of men.

But is in fact something that is based upon the revelation of god. That is what constrains and holds man back in his constant desire to rebel. That was part and parcel of the thinking of many of those individuals and even those who were not Avowed christians were still deeply influenced by that worldview.

So to hear modern commentators in essence abandoning ship and abandoning the foundation. And and adopting the very platform of the other side. That says there is no objective truth. There is no revelation from god.

We cannot continue to look at Mankind as if he is the creation of god as if god's law has any relevance here to do that. What what what will be the end result of that? Um There's no possibility Of of continuing to hold these things together and to to defend The christian worldview which really is the foundation here.

I mean when you get right down to it uh, you look at islam, for example, there's the possibility of plural marriage with an islamic law and things like that and and so the idea the american concept of a family of a man and a woman and Commitment and the raising of children and all those things that we call traditional family values.

They had an origin and a source in the christian scriptures and a recognition That god is our creator and god has the right to tell us what's right and what's wrong. And so once you once you stop admitting that then you have cut yourself adrift from history you have no Background any longer upon which to rely and what are we supposed to accomplish here?

Huh, it's it's just It it's just it's just a sad sad thing to hear this taking place and it To see the speed with which is coming now. Some people say it's happening so quickly there may be a backlash and it's true when 97 of the population um does not embrace a a particular behavior the three percent when they start pushing themselves may indeed experience a backlash, but then there's a because of the The adoption of a post-modern mindset a a anti-christian humanistic mindset uh the idea That there is a right and wrong being completely abandoned and rejected by a majority of people you have those individuals Uh who while they are not homosexuals have been quite simply brainwashed have had their minds Uh, just just removed so they do not see how sexual behavior and sexual Activity impacts all of one's life, even though it's obvious that it does and so they'll they will buy into any of this.

They're they're just the people who are just absolutely bent upon throwing off any form of god's revelation of himself And a revelation of his his law in our lives. It is just it is just an amazing thing.

So when we see the perversion of justice going on within our society when we see certain and certain political forces Circumventing the constitution circumventing even the will of the people because they they are even more radical.

They they have not even they don't even have the patience to allow the the poison to circulate through the entirety of the the body politic. Uh when you see them pushing ahead like this, they just they are just expressing their their complete Hatred toward god this this one.

I think it was a congresswoman from uh from uh Uh colorado. I think it was that was saying this morning and I could not help as i'm driving along to just chuckle in sadness. As she is going after Uh president bush and she's saying this is totally wrong.

It is unacceptable. I do not accept it totally wrong. On what basis. What foundation do you have? Totally wrong define your basis of wrong. Where do you get any of this these people are never forced in a situation where they have to actually give some sort of of? meaningful a thought process Behind their their statements.

It's an it's an amazing thing To listen to you know, and it it forces me back into Into the scriptures and to consider the importance um uh of the The concept of justice in regards to god, I remember back in In seminary we were translating from the psalms in one of the many hebrew classes that I took and psalm 97 2 Reads clouds and thick darkness surround him.

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne. Uh and justice justice mishpat. That that concept are the foundation of his throne his very rulership is based upon this concept of righteousness and justice.

And this is to be reflective within within the jewish system the judges who gave out god's Law and gave out god's uh. That they stood in the place of god's that's why they even called god psalm 82 Vindicate the weak and fatherless do justice to the afflicted and destitute.

Who is that addressed to the judges who were called gods? When a person is placed in that position of being a judge They are placed a position of exercising god's very judgment and they are held accountable for that.

I know there's there there are there are christians who would disagree with me with that. They would say oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no a judge will not be held accountable for What he does the judge or she does the judge they'll only be held accountable Uh for what they do as individuals and not their position as judges.

I I don't understand that I don't understand that concept. I guess it comes from maybe some eschatological viewpoints or stuff like that. I don't know Uh, but I I don't understand that I think that a person who is given that kind of authority In god's providence therefore must exercise it in a way Uh that they can give an account unto god for what they have done.

I I really think that that's the case and I know many would say no no, but that's. That's that's my perspective and a a nation that finds itself Filled with unrighteous judges, it's not the unrighteous judges that are going to bring god's judgment upon us the unrighteous judges are the evidence of god's judgment upon us.

Unrighteous judges are a plague on the land. The perversion of justice is a part of god's wrath being poured out against the godlessness Of western civilization as a whole and let's face it at least we haven't gone as far as most of Western nations have today look what's going on up in canada, and I know we've got some friends up in canada.

There's some folks listening right now up in canada, but they will tell you this whole concept of of gay marriage the total disregard for god's law in regards to The very nature of sexuality the very nature of the marriage covenant.

All of that is simply being thrown out and The the the leftists in in our nation Are absolutely determined to follow in line with what goes on north of the border and in europe. And we see that those nations have truly uh, just simply uh With with with abandon and with glee and thanks to the educational system ignorance on the part of most people Completely and totally overthrown their own history.

They have overthrown their own foundations and what system can possibly Continue on over time when you destroy your own foundations. No system can no system of government can do so. And we in the united states are actively seeing Large groups of people seeking to destroy the foundations upon which this nation was built.

That is absolutely positively Unquestionable we see it all around us. And so what are christians to do? Well You know, I there there are some who Who will say well, you know, we we need to we need to be wise and how we respond to this.

And of course we need to be wise. There's no question of need of wisdom. Uh, but what does that mean? Well, you know, we we need to recognize that people don't respond well Uh to to black and white thinking.

That's because their minds have been muddled. You know those who say well, you know, we need to try to adopt the tactics of the other side. Well, then if you adopt the tactics of the other side if you adopt the tactics of the enemies of god and god's law.

Who are seeking to pervert god's law and and destroy the institution of marriage and and force? Uh homosexual rights quote unquote down our throats and abortion rights down our throat. And and corrupt our children our marriages and our families and and don't you think for a second?

They're not going to then seek as they are in canada as well. To take away our free speech, right so that we will not even have a right to do this. We'll have to go underground to say the kind of things we're saying right now in the not too distant future.

And there's many people who would like to see that uh, if we if we adopt their tactics. Can we promote god's truth? Through a system that is that is opposed to his truth. That I do not understand that I cannot begin to understand.

I don't see how the prophets did that. It's not a matter of embrace. It's not a matter of of saying well, we need to Treat them as post-modernists. No folks remember something. Man. Whether he wants to acknowledge it or not is still Created in the imago dei the image of god.

That remains the apologetic point of contact. And you see no matter how often the the natural man seeks to banish the thought Of the creator from his mind it is still there. It is still part and parcel Of his created nature and that becomes the point of apologetic contact.

Man knows homosexuals. Know that homosexuality is wrong. They know it's wrong the the guilty conscience that they have. The fact that they have to band together in groups to to go out and do their public displays of their perversion uh in their gay pride marches uh is further testimony that they recognize The sinfulness of their actions and it's a fulfillment of romans one.

They know that those who practice these things are worthy of death, but they not only practice them. But they encourage others to engage in those very same activities. This is what we see going on around us all the time.

These people are still created in the image of god. That is the contact that's the contact point That you have with the unbeliever. It is not adopting his methodologies. It's not adopting his perspectives and approaching him as if we try.

As if we in some way shape or form can convince them through non-spiritual means to adopt truth uh, that makes no sense and so It is it is a sad thing to hear. And I know michael medved is is not a believer in jesus christ.

Uh, I don't know what the what rush limbaugh's State of soul is. I don't get the feeling that he is either um, and so I I guess I shouldn't be overly surprised but certainly Uh those of us who look to the word of god should see What the real issues here are and should recognize and and I know in our society.

You're you are going to be looked down upon fine. We're already looked down upon. Why should we care if we're looked down upon more? We need to start saying look you folks are anti-christian bigots. You do not want me to exercise my religious rights.

You do not want me to have the freedom to believe what I believe. And i'm not going to act like a second-class citizen anymore. I'm going to use the rights that I have while i've still got them and i'm going to speak out and i'm going to say That you are wrong.

You are morally wrong to say and do what you're doing. You've got to do that. I just well anyways i've been I guess i've been preaching haven't I? Uh, it's it's troubling. It is very very troubling to me to see um people defending a position.

That is true. But defending it in a way that is inconsistent with the truth that's being defended. You know what I mean? Um, it's Marriage is not defined as one man and one woman because the majority of people think that.

That is the the myth that this somehow is a greek democracy. Where majority determines truth? That has never been the case and the fact of the founding fathers Did not give the vote to everyone. They designed it in such a way that people who would know something about Responsibility and the law that those are the ones who made those kinds of decisions.

Might tell you a little something about where they were coming from. There has been and i'm not the first one to say this many people have said this but there has been A not overly silent, but pretty much ignored by everyone revolution in this nation.

If you if you define a revolution as a as a change In the foundations of the governing system that has already taken place. We're just seeing the results. And we may well be facing a day when our freedoms the freedoms we have.

To say what we're saying right now will be challenged and taken away. Uh, and that's already taking place north the border where you cannot even publish certain i'm not sure. You know, how do they get away with publishing bibles in canada?

Do they publish bibles in canada? Uh, do they have to take out? Uh Deuteronomy 22. And romans 1 and genesis 18 and 19. Isn't amazing you can publish books uh. In a certain nation, but you can't Buy space in a newspaper to publish the same stuff.

Uh, oh my my my my my and if you think that the people who defend free speech will come to our aid remember barry lynn. Uh barry lynn the great defender of the first amendment uh, but in reality. Uh that first amendment is only in their thinking meant to defend their freedom to say whatever they want.

It is not meant to defend our freedom of speech at all. And his actions made that very very clear. So um. Yes, one of our our faithful friendly canadians is glaring at me in channel. But if that individual would like to explain to me where i'm wrong In what I have said concerning things north of the border.

Then I would be happy to hear what he has to say. Uh, but uh that seems to be the situation well anyway I I now feel better. Uh, but that doesn't really accomplish a whole much a whole lot eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I don't see any indication on ye olde computer screen.

That anyone has picked up their phones to join us this evening. Yes, there are none eight seven seven seven five three three three four one you don't have to uh, you don't have to uh. You know comment on that if you have other questions on other subjects that we've addressed that's fine.

Uh, no problem whatsoever uh, but um. That's right i'm not wrong and I know you hate it just as much as uh as I do but it's. You're stuck with it my friend since you live up there and it's it's like, uh.

What was it back in the 70s acid rain? Uh, it is now Coming our direction and eating away at the fabric of our society. Just as it has done. So, uh up there north the border and in europe and yes in jolly old england uh, it is amazing to think that in the lands of of charles haddon spurgeon and in the land of john knox and and uh people like that that uh,.

That this kind of utter degradation now now reigns supreme. Well. Uh, it seems that americans are absolutely intent upon Well quite simply upon ignoring that. And as long as our 401ks are doing fine all is well and our 401ks are doing better.

So Must be must be a good thing 877 -753 -3341 we're going to take a break and give you all time to go running to your phones. Uh so that you can join the program today. And when we come back if uh that hasn't taken place.

Uh, we'll press on from there 877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back.

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Caller Questions on Simon Magus, 1 Timothy 2:4, and Limited Atonement

And welcome back to dividing line. My name is james white and we are Talking about. Well, we're going to talk about whatever the callers want to talk about this evening. I got to uh get on my soapbox for half an hour and uh, you endured all of that.

And so now we let the callers sort of drive The car here and let's start with jonathan in southern florida. Hello jonathan.

Hi there james. Hi, um, can I say first and foremost that I appreciate your ministry so much. Well, thank you for calling in today. Yeah, and by the way, you're very faint on the phone. I can barely hear you.

All right, well, I don't know if that's my phone or yours, okay. Go ahead. Okay, um just a quick question concerning the uh, The transitional issue of I've recently listened to all your uh teachings on reformed theology and uh become a convert Consequently, which is rather awkward since i'm in a pentecostal church.

Ah, okay. Yeah, but my question is i'm struggling with like act eight for instance when uh, simon seems to make a conversion to christ. And then uh, it seems to vote in defending the reformed position.

Uh in light of those verses if you're talking about simon maggis, uh, I don't know anyone who would think that the man was a Was a believer in christ. I mean, uh, obviously there are many people who who uh confess some sort of a Religious experience but that's that's the whole point of the parable of the soils is that uh when the when the word goes out, there's all these different kinds of responses to it and uh, many of those responses simply do not uh result in any fruit.

Uh, and they uh, the individual is is you have the shallow soil the rocky soil the thorn so on so forth but none of them result in any fruit and so uh, that's what you have with uh with people in jesus ministry and the disciples experience the same thing.

So I I certainly wouldn't think that anyone would argue that simon, uh was actually a regenerate individual.

Yeah, I would hold the same position. You just given me there. Um, I just found it a bit difficult to explain that for you because He seems to make an outward profession to uh water baptism.

Well, so there does water baptism isn't what saves you. There are many a person who has walked through the waters of uh, baptism. And uh that baptism does not change the heart so uh. The fact that he's called the called by the the apostles what he is, uh shows the the nature of his heart.

Yeah, that's what that's what I thought because I believe uh a few verses down it kind of says that uh. He had wickedness in his heart. So therefore obviously not regenerated. Yep, quite true. So within the context it is explainable.

Yes, it is most definitely. So where are you at in southern florida? Okay, um, i'm living in uh, uh walk of time.

Okay, because i'll be in uh, the big debate coming up, uh, december 5th in tampa uh with uh with uh, Uh, gregory stafford on the subject of the deity of christ. So, uh, hopefully you'll you'll be able to make that.

I would love to do that. All right. Thanks a lot. Jonathan. Thanks for calling today. Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. That's the number that joanna in michigan called.

Hello. Hi, good evening. How are you? Good. Good. Good. You got to turn that uh, that computer down the background or it's gonna sound really weird.

Yeah, hang on. Let me turn that down here. Okay.

Do that's much better. Thank you. Okay. Um.

Yes, ma 'am, okay. Yeah, the reason I was calling um. The um I. I have a copy of a book Um called spurgeon and hyper calvinism.

Are you familiar with that book at all? Uh, who's it by? It's by a guy named ian murray and uh, I thought that was called the forgotten spurgeon.

I think they're two separate books. Okay. Um, I think the forgotten spurgeon is where he talks about How spurgeon defends against arminianism and then this one is where spurgeon Sort of defends against hyper calvinism.

Uh-huh. And the reason i'm calling is In this book he Seems to represent the spurgeon. Um. Kind of take like in with regards to first timothy, uh, two four, um in this book He seems to take the position that spurgeon Um says that like That god desires all to be saved that all means all.

Yeah, that's what spurgeon said about first in the two four. He was wrong I mean, let's face it. Uh spurgeon, uh did not interact with uh, any exegesis of the text deals with the uh context of all men Rulers knows an authority what comes before what comes after he didn't interact with uh, two five and the issue of mediation so, uh Why he didn't interact with those things.

It's not like those those, uh Understandings were not already available at least in latent form and john owen and others. I do not know but uh Spurgeon was not infallible and uh, he did take the view, uh, the first timothy two four expressed and others I think john murray took the view that first timothy two four expresses a A a some some kind of a universal salvific will.

That for some reason god does not choose to uh act upon and does not choose to bring to fruition uh that it is it is a more of a decretive will not a decree of will but a It's more of of saying it's it's like god Uh says do not murder and yet part of his his decree is that murder will exist.

And so they would say this is similar to the same thing is that there's this this general Uh salvific will but it's different from the specific uh decree of god that includes the elect that spurgeon speaks of in other places and so Uh, there are those who take that view.

I I do not take that view of the passage. I think that exegetically Uh when you look at the passage and allow it to speak for itself in regards to what all men means um that uh that that's that's self-evident as to what it's referring to exegetically but Spurgeon did not say i've looked at that and I reject it.

He just simply Said what he said. Okay. All right. Well, thank you. You're most welcome. All right. Bye. Bye. All right. Let's uh, keep those phone lines buzzing. We've got two more of calls online. That means Folks are coming in they're calling in this evening and that's great.

Uh, let's talk with uh, jesse in utopia I have no idea what o n is Ontario ontario. Oh, someone could have said something about canada. That would have helped me to understand that but anyway Yes, the utopia, uh, the utopia where where where men can marry men, right?

Uh, uh, unfortunately, yeah.

Yes Yes, we. Uh, I actually heard your comments and then I had to click off the computer because i'm on dial up.

And then run over to the phone and call in. Uh, you're not the only one. Uh, that that's how it works. But anyway, yes, sir. What can we do for you? Um, yeah, I was uh, I was just going to uh,.

Mention a couple things in in keeping with the whole homosexual issue. Then I had a quick question. And hopefully I don't monopolize the time too much. Sure. Um. We uh, you probably heard about the stars stock this big concert that they had in toronto here yesterday.

No, I didn't tell me. Well they they had a big they had a big concert in toronto to uh, Uh, I guess get popularity for toronto after it had after it went through the big hit on tourism dude.

Oh, yeah, I did hear about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well anyways, um.

Right now in vancouver, they're having gay pride week.

Oh, it's now up to a week now a whole week. Yeah, soon. It'll be a month and then it'll be. You know, here's the time.

Anyways, but but they are complaining out there and i'm not exactly sure. If they're complaining that the government didn't throw enough money into gay pride week. Or if they're complaining that the money that the government didn't throw.