Post Calvinism Debate Discussion

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Welcome to Apologetics Live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

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Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro, and Pastor Justin Pierce.

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Well we are live, but we are not at our normal time. So this is a bonus episode.

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This was something we put together, we were trying to put together with some pastors down in the Philippines, one of which could not make it, but we're hoping the other one will come in.

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I'll bring in my co -host Justin Peters. We were doing this at this time, folks. Hi everybody,

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I'm Justin Peters. I'm Justin Pierce. Did I say that? Yeah.

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Okay. I said Justin Peters. Justin Peters never looks so bad. I was going to say, he would have way stepped down if he looked like me.

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Apologetics Live is usually Thursday nights. You can always join us any

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Thursday night to have any questions on God or the Bible. That's what the show is for.

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We also are here to explain Apologetics to help you better in your Apologetics. And that's what this bonus show is going to be.

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Now we did try to do this at a time that was set for us, but we're just talking to a pastor that's backstage and didn't realize it is so late for those in the

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Philippines. So it's about midnight there. And so we thought it was much earlier in the evening. So what we're probably going to do is we're probably going to do two episodes, two bonus episodes.

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We'll do another one. We just got to find a good time to do it where folks would be awake and active in the

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Philippines there, because that's really who we want to target this bonus episode for, so that folks can come in and, you know, folks from the

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Philippines especially could come in and be able to express their thoughts of the debate.

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So for folks who don't know, we did have, you know, maybe just tuning in, you're going, what are you guys talking about?

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What debate? On Apologetics Live last Thursday, we did a debate and the topic was

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Calvinism is useless and dangerous. And so we had done the debate and realized actually the one who is dangerous was my opponent.

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And so we have seen his behavior before the debate, I'm going to get into explaining that, during the debate, but after the debate gave us even greater concern.

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And so we felt there was a need to set the record straight to have others come in, be able to share what they have seen and their views.

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Overall, I'll say this, it's always interesting to see the feedback of a debate, see how you do.

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One of the more interesting comments, the overwhelming comments that I received were that I had a great amount of patience.

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One of my friends had texted me and said he couldn't watch the whole thing because he was too busy screaming at the screen.

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One comment that I really liked, I should have saved it, someone said that they said that they thought they had a lot of patience until they watched the debate and realized

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I had more. And I'm going, I don't know what they were watching because I felt like I lost my patience.

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Well, you know, if you think about it, though, I mean, I watched there as the moderator and you know me, being quiet is hard.

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But to listen to the conversation and how things were progressing, you know, towards the end, it was confrontational because you guys were having a back and forth.

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But after the debate was over, when the ad hominems and things came from Mr. Fuentes and the things that he was saying,

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I was surprised that you didn't get angrier, knowing you as I do.

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You don't have a lot of patience for people that are lying or misstating or doing things on purpose.

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But you exercised a lot more patience. And I know that there were people that were like, oh, you know,

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Andrew, you need to calm down and everything. And that's going to happen, you know, because there is a segment of people that hear a debate and they're always, you know, their proclivity might be towards one person or another.

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And so they might look at Andrew and say, well, he was too harsh. Or look at Mr. Fuentes and say, well, he did everything perfectly.

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Now I'm not going to listen to you. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And see, those things happen.

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But what amazed me, Andrew, to be honest. I should explain that joke, right? Because that was the one thing that really bothered a lot of people was his behavior toward the end when

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I started kind of correcting him on the fact of how people, you know, people look, this is just a general truth.

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People should not be debating a topic they don't understand. Yeah. I mean, it's just and he had he had had it.

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He just was like, I'm not going to be you know, it's as if he's he can't be wrong. So he just he literally toward the end was just asking me in closing prayer, we're going to close in prayer.

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And then he took his earbuds out. And some people noted that he was staring right at the camera. Now, we don't know.

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Maybe he switched screens. He wasn't looking. Who knows? He claims afterwards he was talking to someone. But it was interesting that many people commented that he knew exactly when the prayer ended and he stuck his earbuds in.

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He's he's made excuses for that since. But, you know, that was that showed a behavior.

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And that's one of the things we'll end up talking about with this. So I do want to say some things just in way of we were supposed

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I was supposed to mention this in the beginning of the show last week, and I didn't. But we are for folks who want we are running a

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Christmas special on the book. What do we believe if you order it at striving for eternity dot o r g.

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Go to the store. It is just the book. What do we believe half off use the the coupon code

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Christmas 21 Christmas 21. And you get that book for half off. We are encouraging people to buy those books for Christmas.

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And we're going to try to get those out immediately for Christmas. So that is something.

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Also, we have our Christian podcast community awards. And so if you're not familiar with Christian podcast community, we have

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I can't over 40 podcasts. I think we're approaching 45. We just added

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Matt Slick live. We have a lot of really good shows recently. And so, yeah, so we're we're going to be and that's a five day a week, his teaching.

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So that's going to be something that we got a lot of episodes if you don't go out there.

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But just if you have podcasts you really enjoy, you think are worthy of a award, just email us at info at Christian podcast community dot o r g info at Christian podcast community dot o r g.

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Let us know what what podcast and if you have a specific episode you thought was so good, we should listen to that and let us know that.

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So those are two things just to mention. I do see some comments in the background. I know you'll you'll put them up as we as we go.

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And so one of the things I want to do early on one is bringing our guest that's at least backstage because he's here and it's late and he just got done with prayer meeting.

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And so we should have him in. Just trying to look if the other guest that actually requested this is commenting and I don't see anything yet.

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All right. So let's now bring in Pastor Nilo. If you could just, you know, introduce yourself, let folks know the church you're at down there, where in the

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Philippines you are. I am in Imus Kabite.

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This is very near the national capital region. And we just started the church, the mission.

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This is a mission from the OFWs, the overseas Filipino workers from Riyadh.

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We started in Riyadh 2010. OK, now you came in at the end because you're actually backstage and you had picked up on something that I said.

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And this seems to be a big thing that a lot of people picked up on. And let me

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I say that this is something I want to do where this is helpful for folks to learn. You've you've two different kinds of people that do debates.

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You'll often see some people that try to overwhelm people with tons of scripture, just overwhelmed with facts and details.

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And for the audience, that typically becomes overwhelming. They don't follow it.

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They don't they can't keep track of it all. You'll see people in debates that just cite scripture, scripture, scripture, scripture, scripture.

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And as an as someone in the audience, you don't have time to look at that. Now, what does that do? One, it gives the sense that there's a lot of scripture that supports my view.

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But I've also noticed a lot of times guys who debate, they do that and you examine the scripture in context and realize it's not saying what they're saying.

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Yeah, my style with debate is not to overwhelm with information, but to drill down.

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And I think that we saw and Pastor Nilo, you you actually honed in on this toward the end is the one verse that I ended up using a

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Philippians 129, because it really was devastating. It was kind of funny watching him kind of squirm with that, because even when he read it out of his own translation, it still said that God gives us for Christ's sake, not only to believe.

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Yeah, also to suffer. And it was funny because you brought this up as well with him. It's just, but what does

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God give you? What is that? Right. And it was funny because he said he kind of said the same thing to you.

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He said to me in the debate that, well, you're you're reading that wrong. Well, we're just reading it.

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And in fact, we aren't reading it. We're asked you to read it. You know, you know, why did you think that that was such an important verse for him to understand?

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Well, the context speaks for itself. It says

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God gives it. And there are two things that God gives the belief and the suffering.

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So he didn't explain it well. So I tried to give him another chance.

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But the he did it. He didn't know how to. He's always talking about Calvinism.

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That's not Calvinism. That's I'm not talking about Calvinism. I'm talking about the verse.

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Yeah. So he didn't do well, even in the after debate.

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I gave him we had an exchange, the two of us.

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And he said, you can use it for unbelief and you can use it against God.

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Yeah. The same thing that he did to you. Yeah. And so that's that's one thing that I picked up on is that he what he's doing there without understanding it, because he doesn't understand the importance of context.

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He doesn't understand the importance of doctrinal truth in this, because what he was doing, whether he knew it or not, was he was actually accusing or making

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God directly responsible for an unbeliever's unbelief. He was saying that that God equally gives

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Andrew faith as much as he gives Mr. Atheist.

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Hold on. He doesn't believe him saved. So I know, I know, I know.

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But any Christian, any Christian. Yeah. First is an unbeliever. And God equally gives that faith to both of them.

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So so he's he's putting it up on God to give that person the faith not to believe.

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And he's using faith in a faulty context. Yeah. And that's the very thing he was trying to he was trying to defend was that God's not responsible for it.

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Now, we do have a question that comes in that this is a question that came in during the show, and this is hello, brethren.

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Can you please comment on his defense of stand alone versus? And I should say I should say this from the beginning.

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If any of you want to join us, just go to ApologeticsLive .com. You just scroll down. There's a video on top and then you scroll down a little bit more and there is a stream yard icon and you click on that to join.

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This was something that caught me off guard in the in the bit. He mentioned it offhanded in I think it was his closing comments.

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And, you know, I'm I mean, look, this is this is something I didn't see him doing. If you watch the debate, you'll see me with my head down over here and I'm I am scribbling.

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I am I'm just taking all kinds of notes because this is what you end up doing is now

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I messed up the order. But you you take notes, you pay attention to what they're saying, you take notes.

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And so I actually missed him say that about the stand alone versus. So when you asked that in the Q &A section,

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I went, what are you talking about? I missed that. And so when he started explaining that,

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I got to admit, I was quite confused with I had to I really listened to the debate to go.

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Wow. Like because throughout the debate, we talked about context, the importance of context.

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And anyone who takes my class, they go to striving fraternity academy dot org. You can see all of our academy classes.

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We have 20 lessons on how to interpret the Bible and they're free. All you need is YouTube. OK, we'll move it to Odyssey soon.

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But but, you know, we offer those classes for free. And the reason is because we want people to learn these important things.

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And so what's the very first thing we teach? Harmonics. First thing, context.

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I mean, that is the first thing you have to understand. The I think his argument for standalone versus was something to say that the

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Bible says things that can stand all by themselves.

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Yes. And they're not related to the context. And he is an example he used in Genesis six where it just says there were giants in the land.

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So you're saying that has nothing to do with anything. That's just there were giants in the land. Yeah. What? Like that's in a context.

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He tried to argue with me with the Proverbs. Now, I think in Proverbs, he has a we'd have a better argument because what are the

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Proverbs and not all Proverbs, right? Proverbs chapter 10 to 29 are general truths.

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But they're so they're kind of independent in that in those chapters. But they do have a context that they're fulfilling in the overall purpose of Philip of Proverbs with teaching wisdom, literature and teaching wise versus foolish.

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But he would be accurate in that sense of saying if you want to go limit the Proverbs, but that's because it's a very specific thing.

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Now, what you can't do is take one proverb or just a verse or a line of a proverb outside of the context of the whole proverb.

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And so that's what he's trying to argue for. And that's that's the problem. Even in the Proverbs, if you go look through the

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Proverbs, each one of them deals with a context of a father to a son, giving him wise teaching so that he understands how to live versus how not to live.

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So you can't just say, you know, Proverbs chapter one says verse 12, let us swallow them alive like she'll even while as those even even whole as those who go down to the pit.

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Well, that's a standalone verse. You can't say that. You have to look and see what the context of it is, because even while it's alone,

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Jesus wept. There is a context to it. Yeah. And Rob Barnhart saying that most hermeneutical books run from twenty five to fifty dollars.

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So free is a real gift. Yeah. And I mean, we do charge twenty five dollars for the syllabus, but you can watch the classes for free.

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You know, one of the things I promised during the debate at the end that we were going to put out some articles now for my article that I have written.

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We accidentally deleted it and I have to rewrite it. So I'm working on that.

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But I do. I want to show you something because I want, you know, for Ari Fuentes.

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How is it again? Fuentes. Fuentes. Fuentes. For Ari Fuentes.

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You know, he's trying to make a name for himself and he you know, everyone kind of said that everyone said that he was he was doing these debates to to make a name for himself and that debating an

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American would give him that credibility. He was saying that he was before the debate.

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He was claiming his credibility. I like what you could put up Rob's comment there, because that actually is interesting that let me give you some insight on the mind of our brother or I don't know now.

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First of all, he was a debater among the against Islam. I was

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I was with him all maybe a few months ago before this

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Calvinism against Calvinism. He was against Islam and he was a good defender of Christianity.

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And then he was against the cult Seventh -day Adventist. Then he

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I don't know who who who did it, but there was a debater of the

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Seventh -day Adventist who became an evangelical and he was a friend of him.

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And this Erwin also, they were together. So he had a lot of experience among these people.

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And so there were there were many Filipinos picking up on his program.

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And then suddenly they became vehemently anti -Calvinist.

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They dealt with this topic. I tried to warn them that don't don't tell people that the

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Calvinists are unsaved automatically. All of them are heretics because your church started by brother

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Bob Hughes was a Calvinist church. He was but the Bible Baptist Fellowship warned him not to teach

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Calvinism anymore or maybe they will cut their support. That's why he stopped.

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And now the church in Cebu is now teaching anti -Calvinism.

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So if you continue with this line of aggression against Calvinism, you are unbaptizing yourself.

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Because if a heretic baptized you and your pastor and started the church, yeah, it's a heretic.

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Then all of you were started by heretics. Then you don't have a true church. Yeah. Yeah.

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Now here's here's a comment that D .A. Chan puts up. He had two points that Calvinism is not talked about in evangelism and that Calvinists aren't allowed to say

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God loves sinners. But he had a script and assumed his script was flawless.

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So when Pastor Andrew exposed the flaws in his rhetoric, he did not know what to do anymore and tragically doubled down on his points without addressing any argument at all.

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Clearly he was not interested in truth. He wanted a monologue. And that's that's great insight.

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You know, even someone else is saying that that's interesting insight, because what you end up seeing there is

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I think there's a lot of validity to that. He did to double down.

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There were there were things I mean, I got to I got to admit, I was shocked with some of the things he ended up saying and then contradicting himself.

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You know, it's, you know, it's something that and I totally encourage you to go back and re -listen.

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And I want to play clips of it at some point. But he actually he one of the things

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I did purposely, since he would not define Calvinism before in a pre -debate. And this is for you.

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Oh, yeah, I was going to bring that one up, but we could. This is what he's written after the debate.

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He said Calvinism is not only cultic, but is also demonic, anti -Bible, anti -Christo, have another gospel and attack the character of God, the

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God of the Bible. And so I had one purpose in the cross -examination. Round one of cross -examination,

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I wanted to I wanted to give him the definitions of Calvinism without using labels.

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Yeah, that does two things. One, it exposes if he understands Calvinism. And two, it exposes if he's a

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Calvinist. So what we ended up seeing is he's actually a Calvinist. He agreed with the

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Calvinistic principles. It's just that he doesn't know Calvinism well enough to know that.

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Yeah. And in round two of the cross -examination, what my goal was to ask him to define

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Calvinism using the labels, and then he misdefined them. You notice he was saying, well, my understanding, my understanding.

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Well, in our pre -debate discussion, he said he could teach Calvinism. I said, if you can teach it, you should be able to define it.

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So is this John was saying? Yeah, John Wilkinson said that not only is Ari defeated, but Andrew proved that he was a

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Calvinist all along. And I want to pull up Jess's, if I can find it, there it is.

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Jess Marie Anne Ott, she said, the question is, is why does he hate

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Calvinism when it comes to the Bible? So, well, part of the thing, and this is a general thing that I often find is people do not understand the terminology.

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They have they have labels. When you only read from one side of an argument. I had someone that contacted me after this debate and he wanted to debate

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Roman seven. He wants to do a debate on Roman seven, whether it's the regenerate or unregenerate.

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Turns out he holds the same position I do. So I said, well, I do not mind debating it.

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You know, I am just going to have to announce that we both hold to the same position. You know, if I win that debate, it means

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I am a really good debater. But I will have to apologize at the end saying that that position

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I debated is wrong. And I've done that before. So but, you know, the thing that you end up seeing in it is.

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In a debate. And I said this at the end, if you're more interested in winning the debate than teaching truth, you got a problem and you shouldn't be debating.

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And when he was doubling down on stuff, he was doing that. Yeah, let me

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I'm going to bring Jordan in real quick, because he had a question here for us. Jordan, welcome. Hey, Jordan.

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Yeah. Is it morning over there? It is. It's it's almost almost noon.

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You guys are you guys are night owls. That's I mean, you guys are late. It's noon.

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So it's afternoon. All of us here. So, yeah, I have a question regarding the regeneration.

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Pastor Andrew, would you claim that you reject the idea of regeneration?

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Yeah, he's been posting and it almost makes me wonder what he was listening to during the debate.

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Right. He has been posting throughout that I deny what

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I said. So he says that that I claim that regeneration proceeds belief.

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I spent some time in the opening that and I understand that for many people, this is a difficult point.

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It's something I explain in my book. What do we believe on the chapter of soteriology?

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I also have an article on striving fraternity that goes into more detail on this as well than I had time in the debate to go over.

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And it's called God's sovereignty and human responsibility from Romans nine and Romans 10. And what

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I try to explain is a doctrine called super intending. Now, where do we see this doctrine? We see this doctrine when it to the inspiration of scripture.

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So did Paul write Romans? We would say yes. But is that really true?

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Well, not really, because God wrote Romans. How can both of those things be true? I mean,

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Paul clearly writes different than John or Peter or Moses. So we see we'll see them write personal things.

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Paul's going to say, hey, can you bring my cloak? It's going to be it's going to be cold this winter. Can you bring my books when you and parchments when you come?

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Those are personal things. He chose to write those things. And yet what we would say is that it's

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God's word. God worked through the human author so that what they wrote is exactly as God intended it to be.

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So who gets 100 percent of the credit? God does. Could they have written scripture apart from God doing that work?

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No. In fact, we know that Paul wrote other letters to the Corinthians, two others, possibly at least one that we know of and probably two that were never scripture.

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So it's clearly not what Paul wrote that made it scripture. It's what God did working through Paul so that everything that Paul wrote was exactly as God intended it to be.

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Now, I don't know many people that would disagree with that that are within Orthodox Christian circles.

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And so the reason I start there is because if we say, well, when did it become scripture?

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When did it become inspired? Well, that's when God had him write it.

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But who did it? God did. It's God who breathed it. It's God who made it inspired.

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And yet the human author actually wrote it. He didn't dictate it or things like that. Now, we see that in the area of inspiration.

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I then mentioned the same thing with the area of sanctification. What do we see there?

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You know, Jordan, if I was to ask you, do you do good works as a believer? You might say yes.

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And you'd realize, go, wait a minute. I don't really do. I write. God does that through you.

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So he gets all the credit for any good works you do. Now, when did it become a good work?

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Well, it's when God did that through you. You couldn't have done it on your own. That's the same doctrine of superintending.

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So we see that doctrine in the area of inspiration, sanctification. I see it also in regeneration.

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And that's why my view of this really resolves, I think, all the debates and issues that people see in it is that God works through the human so that the choice, the experientially he chose

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God, theologically God chose him, both are true. Yes. Because God worked through the person.

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When did the regeneration occur? Well, it's simultaneous. And this is a thing.

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In my book, I have a chart of all the things that happen simultaneously. You're in what with the Holy Spirit, you're adopted into the

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God. You go from an enemy of God to a child of God. You are regenerate. You are justified.

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You believe. You have faith. All of those are simultaneous. And the Puritan, I think it was

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Christopher Love, who had asked the question, can someone be an unregenerate believer?

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Think about it. Can someone be unregenerate and a believer? The answer is no. Okay. Can someone be a regenerate unbeliever?

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No. Well, if you can't have either one of them, there's only one solution. They're simultaneous.

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So do I see that regeneration precedes faith? I said that in the debate when he asked and I said no.

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And yet he goes off to say that I'm saying the opposite. It's simultaneous.

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Let me just finish the thought. I'm sorry. Go ahead. They're simultaneous. And so the thing he has to recognize is that when we speak logically versus chronologically, and I mentioned that in the debate, logically, many people would see that regeneration precedes faith.

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Why? Because it's God and God alone who can do that work, just like it is in inspiration, just like it is in our good works and sanctification.

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God does that, but he does it through us. If it wasn't for God, we wouldn't be able to do those things.

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And so logically, it proceeds. The problem many people have is that they start saying that there's a chronological order to it.

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And I remember going to a church with a pastor of mine and he said, Andrew, you and I disagree by a millisecond because he believed that for one millisecond, someone was regenerate and then they would believe.

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And when you understand what I'm explaining here, it resolves in the thing.

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When I asked him to define TULIP, he listened to what his arguments were, especially with like irresistible grace.

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You see, when we went through that, when I asked him, does he believe that there's a response?

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He was like, yeah, it's a response. The response has to have something to respond to. That's basically irresistible grace because they're simultaneous.

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His whole thing is that he thinks what Calvinism teaches is that you have regenerate unbelievers running around, even if they're for a millisecond.

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And so I know that he's been saying that I deny this.

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I've been kind of clear and actually I've been kind of clear for about 25, 30 years on this.

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You know, I have articles on strivingforeturning .org on this that have been out there long before R .A.

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Fuentes. Fuentes, did I pronounce it right? Yes. Okay. But before he had even, you know, from the looks of maybe even before he was alive,

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I don't know. But I've had these articles out for a long time.

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And it's not that I'm changing views. I'm being consistent with it. And the thing is to note is to say that I'm saying regeneration precedes faith chronologically is a lie.

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But one of the things you're going to see with him is, and this is the behavior of guys like this, what he says is true, but not the whole truth.

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He'll say things because what he's going to appeal to is, you see, but you did say that when it comes to logical, okay, but you're not using it that way.

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Right. And that's what I wanted to point out is in the article that I wrote that's on striving for eternity, I tried to make sure and pull out the heaviest detail on, you know, where Mr.

32:35

Fuentes was trying to raise up illogical false arguments. And I tried to make sure everybody understood in the article that he's saying things, not understand what he's talking about.

32:48

And then he's attacking Andrew, myself, Pastor Nilo, and many other people. He's attacking them for things he doesn't even understand.

32:57

And in this section right here, I wrote this, Mr. Fuentes raised a question over regeneration preceding faith.

33:05

And Andrew, Pastor Andrew, correctly said that this was not in the scope of the debate.

33:12

Still, he answered that regeneration precedes faith logically, not chronologically.

33:18

Now, if you want to have a debate on those issues, that's fine, but he's right. That wasn't part of the debate. But let's go ahead and answer it so that everybody hears it.

33:26

And so it's important that, you know, regeneration precedes faith logically, but not chronologically.

33:33

And he explained that both come simultaneously. It was as clear as day.

33:39

And however, Mr. Fuentes, he posted, and this is part of his misrepresentation.

33:47

And if you could, it could even go so far as to say lying. Okay. He's misrepresenting the truth.

33:52

And he goes, now I know that all Calvinists or not all Calvinists believe regeneration precedes faith.

33:58

And then 1 Corinthians 5, 1 through 4 is not a complete gospel presentation.

34:04

Now I want to point this out. That was absolutely dishonest because Andrew said it was talking about, we'll get that in a second, but on 1

34:12

Corinthians 15, Andrew actually said in the debate, I wrote it out. I have it timestamped that Andrew actually said, no,

34:21

I believe it is. It is the gospel in its fullness, but there's, there's, it's, it's not, it's not the complete gospel.

34:28

It's the true gospel, but there's more things to be said. And Andrew, I'll let you comment on that.

34:34

And then, and then other gentlemen here, if you want to comment, but I would like to interject something that had been brought out into my attention, if you guys would.

34:45

Well, there's some things, there are some things and, and let me just put up, where was

34:51

Rob's comment? Rob Barnhart said this, this is actually a somewhat hard concept for many to grasp.

34:58

Andrew is explaining it pretty well. And the concept that we're referring to there is this concept of superintending.

35:04

When, when you understand this, most of the people that have discussions on this, it resolves them.

35:12

Now you've brought up a couple things. I want to, I'm just going to share, cause you brought up your article. So let me just share, you know, some things from our website.

35:22

So here is strivingforattorney .org. And if you go to the latest, latest articles, just go up to the articles, you'll see that right now we have three articles that are dealing with this issue.

35:36

Okay. We've more that are actually coming. One is to deal with his, the whole discussion of does

35:42

God grant belief and his whole way of, and the guy, Josiah, that's writing this is writing it from his, his big thing is hermeneutics, how to interpret.

35:50

So he's writing this article from the position of, you know, how do we hermeneutically interpret the scriptures with this?

35:59

And so he deals with that issue. The second one he ended up writing is the whole thing of John 3, 16, who is the world there that came up.

36:06

And then we have your article. Now I said in the debate, I said during the debate that we were going to put things up.

36:14

I know that, and I started saying this a little bit earlier, he was counting on getting, you know, credibility.

36:23

And we had countless, Justin, you saw this as well. We had countless people contacting us, just warning us, don't do this debate.

36:32

You're going to give them credibility. And I told people like, I didn't understand the situation before we did the debate, but afterwards

36:40

I realized he's, if he is a false teacher, which we ended up exposing that he was,

36:45

I wasn't a hundred percent sure until the debate, but if he was a false teacher, then we were going to make sure he didn't get credibility from this.

36:55

So I said that we were going to put articles out explaining things from the debate. Now, Justin, your article here, which is called why in the world are you debating

37:03

R .A. Fuentes? So that, that goes through the entire debate and you really laid that out well.

37:14

That's an article that people should get, read and share. But I want to show them that you just, you really made that out.

37:28

Yeah, it was you. Cause I just muted you and it stopped. All right.

37:34

So I want to show you some, your article, Justin has been up for less than 12 hours.

37:41

Okay. The other two articles have been up for, I think, 24 hours. All right. Now I said, we're going to make sure that if anyone searches on the internet, for him, they're going to find these articles.

37:55

Well, take a look at a recent search. Let me make this a little larger. The first thing you'll get is his

38:02

Facebook page. Second thing, his Facebook page. Oh, this was the old.

38:08

Yeah. So all of a sudden you're starting to see our articles popping up. Right.

38:16

We, I did this search earlier. The third article was yours. Okay. In less than 12 hours.

38:24

All right. Now you figure Facebook and YouTube, they're going to be, they're going to be popular, but you're starting to see our stuff popping in before his.

38:33

Why? Because Striving Fraternity has a very large internet reach. You know, if you end up going there, you'll end up seeing that we're, we're one of the top, you know, pretty top site compared to other podcasts or other sites.

38:50

And so we're going to make sure that anyone that goes searching for him, what they're going to discover is your article.

38:58

That's going to be number one. He's not going to be able to use this to go, Oh, look, I got credibility.

39:04

Yeah. I have a question, Andrew. This views that you propounded,

39:13

I find that it's exactly the same as what I teach here in, in the church.

39:20

Good. What about Calvin? Does he teach the same? I haven't read any

39:26

Calvin books. Well, I have, I've, I've read some of those commentaries.

39:31

I read the institutes long, long, long ago, probably like 25 years ago. So I wouldn't be an expert on, on Calvin's particular views.

39:41

I was actually many years ago writing, I was writing a little pamphlet called is Calvin a

39:47

Calvinist. And there's a reason I was doing that was because what a lot of people don't understand is that the term we know of as Calvinism didn't actually develop until after John Calvin.

40:01

What a lot of people don't realize is John Calvin's followers started going to an extreme, started teaching things like double predestination.

40:10

Some start teaching, you know, determinism that everything's determined. And what ended up happening is that you had a guy,

40:18

Jacob Arminius, where everyone knows Arminianism from. Now here's the irony of history.

40:25

Jacob Arminius was actually a Calvinist meaning Jacob Arminius was taking those that were going the extreme and trying to pull them back into what

40:33

Calvin taught. But in that, when he passed away, his followers went extreme the other way, started denying things like original sin and whatnot.

40:43

So you end up having the extremes going. You ended up having, and, you know, the

40:49

Synod of Dort was what Fuentes had referred to.

40:56

And what it was is you had these five points of Arminianism that were developed and the five points of Calvinism were contrary to that.

41:07

So in short, I don't know if our system of theology was as developed enough that Calvin would have delineated what

41:21

I'm saying about the doctrine of superintending. I think he might have held to that, but I'd be hard pressed to be able to support it.

41:34

You know, I just don't know enough about Calvin's writings to be able to say that, you know.

41:43

But the thing is, you see from the teachings of scripture that these things are taught.

41:49

And that's the thing that, you know, I want folks to, if you go back and you watch the debate, here's some things to watch for.

41:56

Watch what he was doing. He was throughout the entire debate playing a word game. And so the game he was playing was this.

42:05

He used the word Calvinism. He defined it as tulip. So what he was saying, his core argument was the reason he thinks that Calvinism is useless is when sharing the gospel, we do not need to define or explain tulip to somebody.

42:25

Okay. But as we pointed out, we don't, there's a lot of things we don't teach. We don't teach, we don't teach doctrine of bibliology, how we got the

42:33

Bible, the study of the Bible. We don't, you know, we don't teach about the rapture.

42:40

We don't teach about the trinity. We don't, there's a lot of things that we would say are very valuable and necessary for Christianity, but we don't teach them when we're sharing the gospel.

42:53

So he honed everything down to that, just what you share when sharing the gospel. And so what you end up seeing is there's, that eliminates a lot of things that he would then put in the useless camp.

43:09

Now his view of it being dangerous was based on what atheists say. Well, I'm sorry, but a bunch of people who hate the gospel are not going to be my authority for what defines

43:22

Christianity. But what you ended up seeing is he ends up supporting Calvinism. Yeah.

43:28

Well, and to note here, during the debate, Mr. Fuentes, he made his false statement.

43:34

He was saying that Andrew claimed that tulip was the gospel. He actually posted on Facebook and whatever, multiple times saying that Andrew claimed that tulip is the gospel.

43:46

And that's a direct quote. But I want to, I want to just remind everybody that Andrew, you know, Pastor Andrew, he said that Calvinism is the gospel.

43:54

And we actually, I pulled that out and noted that. The teachings of Calvinism. The teachings of Calvinism.

43:59

And that's what I want to be clear about. Yeah. I was being specific on that. No, I know. I know. But what I'm saying is, is he was misrepresenting and saying, tulip, tulip, tulip.

44:09

Okay. If you're going to make all these dogmatic statements, then be truthful and be exact. Right. Because I'm sorry, but, you know,

44:17

Andrew, Andrew said something one time. And so therefore it's, it's, it's, it's true or error.

44:22

Okay. What did he say specifically? Well, he never said tulip was the gospel. And here's the straw man argument.

44:29

Mr. Jordan, I don't know you. I've never met you before. So are you born again?

44:35

Do you know Christ is your savior? Do you know Jesus as your savior?

44:42

Okay. So you, so you tulip, right? You tulip, tulip, right?

44:47

Okay. Tulip. That's the gospel. That's, that's silly. That's silly. I would never walk up to any of you and say,

44:55

Hey, tulip, you know, and you, you, okay. You, you agree with the word tulip. So you're safe. Or I wouldn't ever try to sit there and try to make that.

45:02

That's a straw man argument. It's a bad, it's a fallacious argument. And anybody that sees somebody do that, you should recognize it right away.

45:11

When that's why at the end, I asked him, okay, I'm lost. You know, Jordan's lost.

45:17

Nilo's lost. Andrew's lost. Tell us the gospel. And all he could do was say, I would go to this passage.

45:23

I would go to that passage. I would go to this, but that is not how you share the gospel. Jordan, John 3, 16,

45:30

Romans 8, 28, you know, 2 Corinthians 1, 9, Jordan, by the way, you know,

45:35

John 3, 16, again in Revelation 22, 7. Now, do you want to believe that's not how you share the gospel?

45:43

Well, but, but that was the interesting thing. You know, I wanted to end the show with sharing the gospel. I wanted to give a gospel presentation and I was actually kind of,

45:51

I'll admit, I was upset that you, you decided to ask him to do that. And I'm like, I was like, look, we want to end on a, you know, cause end the show.

46:00

And I was actually glad you did. Why? Because when you did, you know, the, what ended up happening is he ended up revealing that he didn't know the gospel.

46:12

I mean, he was sitting there and saying, you know, he was, he actually sat there and said, when we asked it, he said, well, you know, like I would,

46:22

I'd point A, point B, point, you know, so it was quite interesting to see that he did not have an answer to the gospel.

46:34

He, he, that was his whole focus, but it sounded like he was reading off of some, some outline.

46:40

Yeah. I would, I would talk about this. I would talk about that. I mean, so folks just go to the end of debate, look at the two different ways we share the gospel.

46:49

You know, one of the things he's been doing is he's been claiming that when

46:54

I talked about his, his church situation, he claimed that I have been,

47:00

I'm lying to people. Okay. And so let's address the lie in the debate.

47:06

I stated that when I asked him for what his church name was, that he, the first, his first response was to, to put up a post from some guy.

47:18

And I shared the post during this, this show, some posts from a guy that claimed that he's, he was at this previous church and there were good vibes.

47:27

Okay. And he said, he's saying he's showing a picture where he gives me the church name.

47:34

Now I want you to notice, I never once said that he never gave me the name of the church.

47:40

Okay. Never. Cause he did give me the name of the church. He's claiming I'm lying because I said his first response was, and then he shows a different, and he says, so what, what he's saying is he said,

47:52

I, that I said, I never said it. Well, let me show you if you can see on the screen, I'm going to read for you this top blue box.

48:00

This was me saying, well, I do not know if you know what you're, sorry, this was the previous comment that we're talking about was

48:11

I asked if Jacob Arminius was a Calvinist. But I said, well, I do not know if you know what you are, since you refuse to answer any of my questions.

48:21

We were talking about whether he's a Calvinist or Arminian. I said, so let me, let me make it simple.

48:26

You said you are a pastor. What is the name of your church and does it have a website? Okay.

48:33

Now right here, the very next thing he posted. Okay. I asked this question

48:39

Wednesday at 7 11 AM. He responded to me at 8 24

48:44

AM. My time. There's his response. The one that I put up, right.

48:49

He said, I'll ask for the website. I'll ask for the web. Okay. I, I pastor a church.

48:56

If you asked me for the church website, I can tell you what it is. Okay. It's grace and truth dot

49:01

Bible grace and truth dot Bible is the website for the church where I, where I'm at.

49:07

I know that I don't have to ask someone else what it is, but I understand some people, you know, he, he said, you know, that we are yet to celebrate one year anniversary as a mission, but, uh, eight years teaching

49:19

God's word. And I can sense that you would not debate me.

49:25

So I will not force you. Let's give the challenge to another Calvinist. Now I then respond.

49:33

Here is his, his, this down here. If you look at nine Oh one is when he finally told me the name of his church.

49:41

Why? Because I ended up saying, well, let me read what I had said in here. Cause it is kind of interesting because this is one of the other things he kept saying.

49:47

He's he continuously has been saying before the debate and after the debate that I'm a coward, that I was trying to run.

49:53

Now you look at what he said there. Who was it? That's trying to run. He's trying to make an excuse and run away from the debate.

49:59

He wants to avoid that, this debate. He wasn't going to be able to, he said this about,

50:04

I think three or four or five times in our private messages that we will release on striving for attorney .org.

50:10

We're going to release all of them. And so you'll see the full communication. You'll see how many times he did this, where he's trying to say that I'm trying to get out of it.

50:17

Right? So he says, uh, and I can sense that you, you would not debate with me. So I will not force you.

50:23

Let us give the challenge to another to never to Calvinist. So my response, you really want to avoid this debate.

50:32

I told you four times now that four times now that December 2nd,

50:38

I will do this debate with or without you. I had many cowards make challenges and then back out to save embarrassment.

50:48

If you watch, I do a debate. I do the debate anyway. Go watch the debate with black

50:54

Hebrew Israelites. When they did not show, I did the debate anyway with an empty chair. It seems like you are, are the, uh, should have been, are the one that wants to avoid this.

51:05

You refuse to answer any questions. I have never met a pastor who refused to say what his, uh, what his, what church he pastors, even you even refuse the simple question.

51:19

Now I posted that at eight 24, I got no response. So at nine Oh one, I said, okay, let me, let me, uh, ask this simple question again and see if you're capable of answering a simple and direct question.

51:32

What is the name of the church you pastor? And does it have a website? And he's, and he gave the church name.

51:39

Now he's going around saying that I lied when I said his first response was this post.

51:46

You can see that that's his first response. You could see he was not willing to give the name of his church after the first, the second, it took three times for him to finally give me the name of the church.

52:00

So when he goes around and says that, you know, I'm lying because you know, I said,

52:05

I somehow said he never gave it. I never said the word. Never. I said that his, his first response was that was his response.

52:14

And that response I said, makes me go, Hmm, there's something that seems like he's pretty nervous about.

52:22

Yeah. Like he, you know, he feels pretty guilty there. Now he's, he has hence since said, let's see if I could bring this one up.

52:34

Uh, because he's blocked, he blocked me before the debate, by the way. So folks know he blocked me before the debate.

52:41

And he said that he was telling people that, uh, I blocked him because I was scared of him.

52:51

Uh, folks, I hope you, you see, I'm not, I'm not the one that was running from it.

52:57

We were going to do it anyway. Uh, but he he's, he's now trying to tell people that I, I slandered him.

53:05

I used ad hominem attacks, uh, referring to his church situation. So here's, here's what

53:10

I said during the debate that we've had many people contact us saying that he's not really a pastor.

53:16

I've had people that said he, he only has a high school degree. He has no Bible training. I don't know that for a fact, but that is what people told me.

53:24

And so that's truthful information. Why is it truthful? Because I said, this is what I was told.

53:30

I didn't verify it as fact. Uh, I was told that he had, uh, left the church that he left.

53:39

The church was, there were some character issues there and he left. I tried to do all

53:44

I could to find that out. I contacted the pastor of that church. He was communicating with me.

53:51

I asked whether we could have a zoom meeting. He, when he asked why, and I explained what about the debate and who I was debating and what

53:56

I wanted to understand, he stopped communicating with me. Okay. Now what

54:03

I said in the debate is that many people had come to us saying that he's not really a pastor. He's someone who left the church in a bad way.

54:09

And after leaving that church, he went and started his own. I've always been against guys who can't submit to a church and then they start their own.

54:21

Okay. You, you know, it's one thing if the, if there's a church that starts and they, they, they're called you, they call you as a pastor, there's something else.

54:29

If they're associated, they're, they're, they're associated with another group. But when someone starts a church to avoid maybe discipline or authority, that becomes a problem.

54:42

So he's saying that he's trying to say that that's not true.

54:48

Well, let me share with you what he actually said. And this is halfway down in here. And again, we're going to have all this online so that everyone can read it and see, because we have nothing to hide.

54:59

But you know, he, he's, he, last time he blocked me, he told people that I blocked him.

55:05

We released all the, these communications at one point. So people realized he had blocked me.

55:11

You know, he, he is saying, he's going to block me again. And I said, of course you'll block me because you're a coward.

55:18

He said, people knew who the coward is here. Now here's the part he's sharing with people.

55:25

He shares just at the point where it says, people knew who's the coward here.

55:32

How do you know you are the, the elect? Okay. And so he, he shares, because that was the question he asked me.

55:42

This is after the debate. He said, how do you know you're one of the elect and can you trust God for your salvation on your children?

55:48

He says for the fifth time. Now, by the way, folks, you'll see that I actually did answer it above.

55:54

You know, I said the same way you do basically. Um, you know, but the, the, the issue is he posts this for a reason because he's, he's going to claim that, that he, uh, he goes at the bottom.

56:08

He says, I will block you. And he says, he blocked me because I was, I was, uh, basically, uh, using ad hominems, but I want you to notice here what he ends up saying right here in the, down this last bit of what he says, he says, pastor

56:23

Kent, that's the pastor I refer to just told my pastor friend that he did not answer you pathetic.

56:30

Okay. Now I want you to think about that fact that he didn't answer me.

56:35

Does that prove that Mr. Fuentes was in good standing with the church?

56:42

No, no, it doesn't prove anything. In fact, it, what that proves is that the pastor didn't engage in that discussion and that's it.

56:53

Let me give you the, the, the,

56:58

I read that it's, he said he's one year in a mission. So that means it's during the pandemic, right?

57:10

Well, whenever I see him having worship service, he's always online.

57:19

There's no actual service going on and I don't see any amens.

57:29

Well, let me ask you a question, Nilo. Are you guys still like locked down? Are you guys able to meet for the last eight months?

57:36

Have you been able to meet properly? Yeah, for us, we are able to meet for us, but there was a season when we were always only in zoom, but, but for the last, for the last eight months.

57:54

Okay. Hold on an echo. Let me see. That's not me. I was, I was already muted. Yeah. Okay.

58:02

So thank you, Jordan. So for the last eight months though, because, because he said this church started,

58:09

I think he said like eight months ago. So for the last eight months, he could have been meeting in person, but you're saying all his church services are just him at home?

58:17

Online. Online. Yes. That's, that's how I observed it when we were still,

58:23

I, I blocked him already. So before I blocked him, I, I always see him popping up during Sunday and it's online.

58:34

So I asked him, I think yesterday, have you been able to minister the

58:41

Lord's supper and you are the presiding minister? And he said, we do it every month.

58:48

And yes, I, of course I have been presiding as the minister in the

58:54

Lord's supper. How can you do that if you're online? Yeah, that would be really hard, but, but let me, cause

59:00

I always want to be charitable folks. I mean, there, you know, it depends on if he's meeting in his home, for example, and he's

59:09

I just, there we go. So he could be meeting from at home and have just a zoomed in view and you can't see if there's participants there.

59:22

So that, that is, that is possible. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that just because he's online doesn't mean that they aren't having church and it's, it could be just zoomed in.

59:32

I mean, most churches when they start, we'll start in a home. Yeah. You know, and so that's not unusual, but I would say that if, you know, so, so I'm, I'm just saying that I wouldn't want to,

59:48

I wouldn't, I personally wouldn't jump to the conclusion he's only online and, and hasn't, doesn't have people there.

59:55

I don't know if he has enough room. Yeah, go ahead. You gotta unmute yourself. Hold on. If you, usually because I came from a

01:00:06

Bible Baptist background, like he is, I was in the Baptist movement since 1979.

01:00:12

Usually we don't authorize a new mission to have

01:00:20

Lord's Supper without an ordained minister presiding.

01:00:30

I know he's not ordained. Okay. So I was going to ask the question, is he ordained?

01:00:37

Does he have any training? And, and, you know, I don't know. That we don't know.

01:00:44

And, and, and by the way, if he's really confident that the church where he came from sent him,

01:00:52

I think there, there's no problem for him not to tell

01:00:59

Brother Andrew about, about, about that. Yeah. And, and many people have asked the question.

01:01:05

I've, I saw it, I don't know, probably five or six, seven times people asking him the directly, are you, are you a pastor?

01:01:13

Are you ordained? People were asking those questions and he gets angry when you dare to ask that.

01:01:21

Multiple times you're harassing your, your, I mean, he kept posting things like, you know, you're harassing me, you know, this is not the way you act.

01:01:31

And instead of answering the question, am I ordained? Yes. Am I licensed? Yes. Have I been sent out?

01:01:38

Yes. You know, I, I'm the pastor of Grace Reformed Baptist Church. We're, you know, okay.

01:01:43

Am I, you know, am I under authority? You better believe it because I'm not a sole authority of my own.

01:01:52

I, matter of fact, I want everybody to judge me, go right ahead. Cause I mean, if I'm doing something wrong, somebody needs to say something, please love me enough to do it.

01:01:59

You know, I will, but I know you will brother. So here, here's what Gab says, um, left the church for character issues.

01:02:07

Hmm. I'm sure it's the same character we saw while we were debating with him on Facebook comments and his posts.

01:02:14

And during the debate with Andrew, where, uh, where he also left the character issues by the way.

01:02:20

And, and that's the thing. One of the reasons we're going to show, release all the comments back and forth is so that you can see the character that came through.

01:02:28

I mean, he's, he's like, there's someone who was upset because I called him a coward for blocking me, but he calls me a coward a dozen times, you know, but what do you end up seeing?

01:02:38

I wasn't running. I'm saying, dude, if you, you don't show up to debate, we're doing it anyway. You can watch the debate.

01:02:44

You saw, I had the empty chair ready. I had the picture of the empty chair ready. And we were just going to do the debate with, with or without him.

01:02:51

Okay. I actually didn't think he was going to show. I'll be honest. Uh, I thought he was going to back out, but he did show up, but I was ready.

01:03:02

Um, you know, so what you end up seeing is, um, I just see,

01:03:08

I'm going to, I'm going to, I'll just finish this up and then I want to let Jordan, cause I know he's got to go. Um, you know, what you end up seeing is that what he does is called projection.

01:03:17

He takes his behavior, puts it on another, and he's quick to do it so that everyone thinks that person's acting that way.

01:03:24

And so if you defend yourself in any way, it's like, Oh, see, that's the proof. Yeah. But look at who did it first.

01:03:29

Look at who, look at the behavior and examine, you know, why people are doing what they're doing.

01:03:35

And you end up seeing he's throughout, you're going to see several times I mentioned in, in what I just read, there was a fourth time he tried to back out of the debate, but make it look like I was backing out.

01:03:46

Okay. And you'll see that, well, that tells you what's happening. So yeah, the strategy, the strategy of RA Fuentes is quite clear.

01:03:59

He's literally flipping the table. Yeah. I actually invited him once on my also at the

01:04:08

Christian Review Project. Um, I asked him politely, um, if not in debate context,

01:04:15

I would like to, uh, to be his friend. I also asked him if, if we could have a, a dialogue, you know, if a friendly discussion for now, so we can build rapport.

01:04:29

Yeah. But unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately he's very militant. He wants to debate and, and, uh, use this particular platform called debaters convention where every people, uh,

01:04:43

I don't think if there are people who debate there seeks to glorify God, but as far as I I'm observing, uh,

01:04:52

I don't see any of them, but yeah. Uh, so I refused his invitation because I am actually the one inviting him, but he's not, he's not, uh, he's not saying yes to the invitation.

01:05:08

And, and after that, uh, just like pastor Andrew Rappaport, he fabricated the story and, uh, um, in result to, you know, me not debating him, so on and so forth, just like what, what, what happened.

01:05:25

You know, the scripture warns that we are supposed to be, if you're going to be a minister, if you're gonna be a

01:05:30

Christian, let's just say it. Anyway, the Bible tells us that we're supposed to be above reproach. In other words, the world should never be able to say of us that we are reproachable.

01:05:39

We're guilty. We're liars. We're blasphemers. We're adulterers. We're immoral. And the way that the world loves to live, they're going to look at us with a very focused lens to see, are we honest?

01:05:53

Are we, are we people that love truth? You know, uh, Kofi, uh, Kofi, uh,

01:06:00

Amaru, I'm sorry. How'd I say the last name, Andrew? What for Kofi?

01:06:06

Yeah. Kofi. Yeah. So that's his last name too well. Okay. So, so he actually said that Christians are people that are truth people.

01:06:15

We bend over backwards to be accurate, fair, and honest state opinions, uh, by all means, but remember that you aren't commanded to have an opinion.

01:06:26

You're commanded to love the truth. Now guys, what I noticed throughout this entire discussion is, uh, the debate and everything after and pre, uh, was that, was that Mr.

01:06:38

Fuentes, he doesn't love the truth. He loves himself and he wants to puff up his position. He wants to give himself a platform and make a name for himself.

01:06:48

And, and that's a bad place to be in. Yeah. Someone's saying he always plays the victim card.

01:06:54

That's true. So Jordan, you, you got your show. I think, have I been on your show? Yeah. You're, you're my first speaker and I treasure that.

01:07:04

So I'll be inviting you, uh, sooner. Uh, I'll be scheduling you. So yeah.

01:07:10

Thank you so much for your time tonight here in the Philippines. Thank you, Pastor John and Pastor Hilo.

01:07:16

Let folks know what your podcast is so people can find your show. Yeah. Uh, please go and, uh, tune into the

01:07:23

Christian worldview project. I'll be having future shows, special is coming Monday. Uh, the topic is united in Christ with brother

01:07:31

Ezekiel and, uh, yeah, tune in so that you'll stay notified. Also my, my

01:07:37

YouTube channel. Thank you so much. You got it. Thanks for coming up. So thank you and a good night.

01:07:43

Bye -bye. Thank you. Good night. So, so I want to, I'm going to put this up again just to show, you know, because I know that, uh, you know,

01:07:52

Mr. Fuentes wants to brag about, you know, how he's, he's going to use this.

01:07:58

Um, and I'm going to make this larger again. So just so you look, this is a search.

01:08:05

There's his YouTube channel. There's his Facebook. What is number three striving fraternity?

01:08:11

Why are we, why in the world are you debating Ari Fuentes? That's number three already.

01:08:18

This article has been up for 12 hours. Just saying we promised we would be making sure that anyone who searches for him, you know, this is a promise.

01:08:28

I had a lot of people in the Philippines that were very, very upset with me. Um, they were asking me not to do the debate, which he would have loved.

01:08:35

Cause he, I mean, just think if I, if I pulled out of the debate to not give him credibility, he would be, he'd freak out, right?

01:08:41

He'd be like, Oh, look, he's scared. He's scared of me. Um, I mean, he already, uh, there was a comment earlier that we, we didn't put up, but you know, there was someone that made the comment.

01:08:50

They tried to make this racial that because you, you and I are white guys, two white guys, that's what this was really about.

01:08:56

And I'm like, what? Um, but the reality is, is

01:09:02

I told, I told the people that reached out to me saying, no, he's not going to be able to use our platform to get credibility.

01:09:08

We are too large on the internet. Our, our, you know, our traffic gets reach.

01:09:15

And so when we put articles up, as you can see, he's, he's, you know, we've already knocked out his, his

01:09:21

Facebook group from the list. We're, we're ranking above his Facebook group. Um, we're, we're ranking above some of his other things that he had on there.

01:09:32

And if I look at this as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. So the top seven articles, when you search, when

01:09:39

I searched, we take the, we take three of those I think they have also a method that they tried to victimize me.

01:09:50

Yeah. Uh, the, the partner of RA Fuentes named Joel.

01:09:56

Uh, Oh yeah. His name was coming up a lot. Yeah. Joel. And the, he, he, he asked someone to, to, uh, set me up in a debate about Calvinism.

01:10:08

And while we were still talking about which topic is the best, suddenly there's a poster with my face on it against Joel.

01:10:18

And I told the, the one who posted it, why, why did you post that? I am not yet.

01:10:23

I have not yet agreed to anything. Then, uh, this Joel is trying to beat me and he's saying, okay, we, are we on, are we going to debate?

01:10:35

I told him, no, not yet. Uh, we haven't chosen a good topic yet. Oh, I understand if you were trying to back out.

01:10:45

Wow. You know, one thing, one thing I noticed that he did with you, um, uh, pastor was, was having the discussion over Philippians 1 29, when you were trying to talk with him about it.

01:10:55

Um, I actually posted this in the article and I, you know, I'm not trying to puff up the article article, but I just want to point out, well, it was a good article.

01:11:03

Well, it was a great article. I mean, cause you know, no, but, but, but, but think about this.

01:11:09

I wrote this and pastor you're right here. You can affirm if this is true or not, when you're arguing, when they were arguing, debating, discussing, you know, uh, pastor, pastor

01:11:19

Nilo, uh, about the nature of faith. Mr. Fuentes said, uh, if we are saved because of then people will go to hell because they didn't believe the problem.

01:11:32

That's actually really wrong in your studies because you're going to heaven because you were chosen.

01:11:39

And I said, the point is that salvation is not a faith. That's what, that's what

01:11:44

I got from what he was saying. And he tried to make it as clear as possible that that salvation is, is from your work of faith of your work of belief.

01:11:54

It's not from the faith that God gives you. And, and that's, that,

01:12:00

I think that's your, that's a translation from somewhere. Yeah. That's, that's from the, one of the debates, the discussions you guys had had.

01:12:09

Is that the translation? Because we were talking in the Filipino language. Yes. That's one that, uh,

01:12:15

I can't remember. Somebody had sent that to me saying that this is what you guys were, were talking about. I do love, actually mentioned the

01:12:22

Filipino language. I do love that Joel has a habit of responding to me in a

01:12:29

Filipino language and I'll ask him to translate and he refuses. Yeah. I find, I find that interesting.

01:12:34

So it's like, when you see that, you go, okay, he's not, he's not trying to talk to me. He's trying to talk to a different audience because I don't understand the language.

01:12:44

You know, and that's what I noticed several times is I would have to ask other brothers, brother

01:12:49

Nilo, Pastor Nilo, I even asked you, uh, you know, if you could do a translation for me. I would translate it better.

01:12:55

I don't think that's a good translation. Put it in your own words. Yeah. Right now, put it in your own words and maybe we can, you know,

01:13:05

I have to go there. Okay. Because I haven't, uh, wait, where is it?

01:13:17

So well, okay. Give me time. I will go there. I'll give you, I'll give you a timeline. Let me play this.

01:13:23

I want to play. I'm going to, I'll, I'll, uh, mute you for a sec till you're ready to unmute yourself when you're, you're ready.

01:13:28

I want to play some clips from the cross examination because there's some things here I want you guys to pick up on.

01:13:35

All right. So let's share this. Okay.

01:13:42

So let me ask you some questions. Um, why am I getting, sorry, we actually had the echo there during the debate.

01:13:51

I don't know if there's something going on. I'm getting into, do you hear an echo? No. Uh, all right.

01:13:59

Um, Mr. Justin, if we can just restart. Uh, okay. So here we go to contention regarding the,

01:14:04

I tried to move it up. We have not the echo effect. So here's now what

01:14:10

I'm doing here. What I'm going to do here is I'm going to ask him the points of Calvinism without using the labels.

01:14:18

Okay. Total depravity is the issue that the, the curse of sin affected the will.

01:14:26

Does he believe that the curse affected the will or does he believe that we have a free will that can make the choice to believe in God apart from God?

01:14:37

That's the issue of total depravity that our will was affected by the curse enslaved to sin.

01:14:44

Is it free or is it enslaved for the unbeliever? Which does he hold to? All right. So let me ask you a question,

01:14:50

Ray. Do you believe that when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, when God cursed

01:14:56

Adam and Eve and all of mankind through them, what did the curse affect their thinking, their emotions, and their volition?

01:15:07

Okay. Right. So I'm including all three of those because that's the issue of debate, the volition.

01:15:13

Let's hear his answer. Did a curse. Uh, yes, I do believe in that.

01:15:18

I believe that, uh, when they seen, uh, also believe that we have a simple nature because of that.

01:15:26

So after the sin, the, uh, after the fall, um, God, I mean, the human, human beings like us, uh, according to Genesis chapter six, everything,

01:15:36

I think, uh, regarding the, um, the teaching of Calvinism, we believe everything about the depravity of men, but we do not believe we reject the inability of men.

01:15:47

And that's the only, uh, point of contention regarding the, uh, uh, regarding that, uh, about the fall, after the fall of men.

01:15:57

Okay. So you do. Okay. So now the reason I want to point that out and discuss that is because what you end up seeing is the whole issue is he wants to say, well, we, we deny the inability.

01:16:07

Well, if a person is enslaved to sin, if they don't have the free right.

01:16:13

If their will is, is, is now part, like if they're enslaved in that way.

01:16:21

Okay. That's the whole discussion. If the will is affected by the curse, then they don't have that ability to do it both ways.

01:16:34

Right. He agrees to it and then wants to do it the other way. You found that pastor. I have it now.

01:16:39

Okay. So there was a, I was, I transcribed the, uh, the conversation between Joel and, uh, uh,

01:16:49

Ari Fentes. Yeah. And what they were talking about when I asked them to explain

01:16:55

Philippians 1 29, he, his answer was all, all things, all things, including faith that gave them.

01:17:07

Yeah. But you can use this faith that God gave to, uh, against God or for God, uh, to believe in evolution.

01:17:18

You can use the faith to believe in creation. You can use that faith.

01:17:25

So still we have the responsibility. The issue there is not, uh, the issue is if that man is responsible or not capable, that is the issue.

01:17:44

Yeah. And, and that's what I had pointed out in another section there down just a little bit lower is the fact that he, he actually claims that, that God's, the, the, the faith that God grants is equally granted, not just for belief, as the

01:17:58

Bible says, not just for, you know, granted by God to, for you to believe as Philippians 1 29 says, but that the faith

01:18:07

God grants is also for the, the faith of an atheist. Yeah.

01:18:14

Not to be saying, and that's where the danger is. So let's, let's do this, Justin. Um, yeah.

01:18:19

If you could read Justin's article and you could communicate with him, if there's a better way of translating that because the trends, we can update that article.

01:18:31

Yeah. No, I want it. I want to play this next clip. This is, this is where we get, this is now point two of Calvinism.

01:18:37

Let's see what he, if he's who he's, he believes in one point, let's see if he believes in a second, that man is enslaved to sin before salvation.

01:18:45

I do believe in that. Okay. So you heard that clearly. He believes man is enslaved to sin before salvation.

01:18:53

Okay. That's the, that is total depravity. So you believe, do you believe that a person enslaved to sin and choose

01:19:05

God apart from God doing anything at all? Can you repeat that question, please? Uh, there's a, do you believe that a person who's enslaved to sin can freely choose

01:19:16

God to believe in God, to do something that's right in God's eyes, apart from God doing any work at all?

01:19:24

I would say that he can respond positively or negatively after hearing the gospel. So that's, uh, that is my, uh, that is our contention.

01:19:32

We don't believe that man is not, uh, is not capable of responding positively and negatively because if it does, if it's not, then

01:19:42

I'll note while he's answering, look what I'm doing right there. You know what I'm doing? I'm not pulling my earbuds out and ignoring.

01:19:50

No, I'm taking notes. Now I do grant that I messed up the order cause that's irresistible grace, but that's okay.

01:19:59

It was still made the point, but he said it's a response, which is what we would end up saying.

01:20:05

It's a response, but I say it's a simultaneous response. Okay. Man is not responsible for not believing.

01:20:13

It's very simple. If man is condemned already for not believing in the

01:20:18

Lord Jesus Christ, then he is responsible. Therefore he can respond positively or negatively.

01:20:24

He can reject or accept the gospel. No, no. Think about what he just said. Is that even, is that even consistent?

01:20:31

So if God is already condemning us, God's the one condemning us. He said, therefore we have a way of choosing right from wrong.

01:20:41

Now it's on us to choose. Well, wait, if God's the one that condemns us, he's the judge, only he can offer the mercy.

01:20:49

You see, one of the things you end up seeing that he ends up contradicting himself is it's almost as if he's trying to say that we are not sinful.

01:20:58

We don't have a sin nature, but he just agreed we have a sin nature. And the reason that is, is because he's saying we have a choice.

01:21:04

Well, no, our starting place is hell. He actually ends up going on after the debate, he went on about this stuff, and he ends up saying that basically that, and I think you might've quoted it in your article,

01:21:18

Justin, where he says that, you know, God is, the appeal go to hell because they didn't choose

01:21:25

God. That's not true. Hell is our starting point. John 3, 17 and 18, the verses he doesn't want to read in context.

01:21:35

We're already condemned. That's what that says. It's not that we get to choose it.

01:21:41

It's we're headed to hell. That's our starting point. But let me continue with this with next points.

01:21:48

He can believe or reject the gospel presentation or that gift because the

01:21:55

Bible says that eternal life is a gift. So he can respond positively or negatively.

01:22:01

That's what we believe. Okay. Now what he just did there. So you guys realize this is not the way to interpret scripture.

01:22:08

You take an illustration and make a doctrine out of it. Okay. He says, well, it says that salvation is a gift and a gift can be rejected or accepted.

01:22:17

I don't know if he got that from latent flowers because that's some of the talk he would do, but you don't use illustrations to make doctrine.

01:22:24

The fact that you and I can receive a gift and we could reject it. Okay. You know,

01:22:31

Justin, you'll get a kick out of this. I now know that either today or tomorrow, there's a gift coming to my house from Justin Peters.

01:22:37

He told me that I have a gift that I'm going to be getting. I already told him I'm rejecting it. I'm going to say return to sender on it.

01:22:45

And he says, brother, every gift, every giver or every, every receiver has to have a giver.

01:22:51

And I said, well, I'm going to, I'm going to take away your, you know, I'm going to just return it to you. We have an ongoing battle,

01:22:57

Pastor Nilo, Justin Peters and I on who can bless each other more. He just, he didn't reject.

01:23:03

I just sent him a gift and he didn't reject it. So I guess I have to receive this one. But we can, in this way, we can do that.

01:23:12

But does that mean that the word gift is exactly the same way that's used?

01:23:17

In other words, if a judge in a courtroom gives a gift of mercy, the person is supposed to spend, you know, 10 years in prison and says,

01:23:28

I'm going to give you a gift and let you go on parole. Did he have a choice in accepting or rejecting that?

01:23:36

No, it was, it was ordered by the court. The court decided this is a gift I'm giving to you.

01:23:41

I'm going to show mercy to you. That's a gift. And the receiver had no choice. He, it's because it's a judgment being made.

01:23:51

Oh, so there's other ways to interpret that. You see, and this is what happens when you start taking things. He's not using the

01:23:57

Bible to interpret. This is one of the things throughout the whole debate. You don't hear him using the Bible.

01:24:02

There's many people that commented saying that I was the one using scripture and I purposely didn't want to overwhelm in scripture.

01:24:10

I wanted to just focus on a few passages, but you don't see him using it at all. He uses illustrations, but he's going to get to a point that I think he, if he goes back and listens to one hour, 29 minutes, he'll be surprised with what he said.

01:24:25

Next question, please. Okay. Do you believe that what you're saying that it is a response?

01:24:32

You believe it's a response? Yes. Okay, good. All right. And that's irresistible grace right there.

01:24:38

Do you believe there's anyone in hell? Again, there's a motorcycle passing by here.

01:24:45

Can you repeat that? Do you believe that there is anybody in hell? Of course you do.

01:24:51

Okay, good. So you believe that the work that Christ on the cross was not applied to every human being, correct?

01:25:00

No, it is for the, if you're, if you're asking me about the application, it is applied only to those who believe, but did you hear what he just said?

01:25:15

Did you hear that? The application of the atonement is only applied to those who believe.

01:25:25

Huh. Exactly like limit atonement would say. He just denied what he later will argue.

01:25:35

Okay. It is for all people. It is for all people.

01:25:42

You see how quickly he contradicted himself. It's for all people, but it's applied only to a few.

01:25:49

Huh. So when I said that the, that the offer of salvation is offered to all but limited to few, and he says that I deny that, well, he just agreed with what

01:26:01

I said. Hmm. Interesting. Death is for all people. We all have given the opportunity to believe as long as we hear the gospel.

01:26:12

Now, later on in the debate, I asked him where that is, what verse says that God gives us this opportunity and he didn't have one.

01:26:21

But the application there is, there is a condition that God has given if you believe.

01:26:28

If you do not believe, then that application is, is. And there you could see evidence that Dr.

01:26:34

Silvestro is right over my shoulder. Did you see that? He just got up from the chair. It's not for him, for that, for that individual, if he's not going to believe.

01:26:45

So that, that. No, I want you, I want you to notice what he's doing. You notice how

01:26:50

I'm asking very simple questions. What was he doing? He's running the clock, answering things I didn't ask.

01:26:56

Yep. Okay. And I, as a trained debater, I realize that. And that's, look, when you do a debate now, here's the interesting thing

01:27:03

I want you to notice when we do release all the communications. He did not want two minutes for an answer.

01:27:10

He thought he can answer every question in less than a minute. And yet he was running the clock the full time.

01:27:18

Unbelief would send him to, to hell in that case. All right. Let me try asking this question again.

01:27:25

Do you believe that God's death on the cross was applied to all people?

01:27:32

Is it yes or no? I think yes.

01:27:38

If we're talking about the, the availability. So, you know, you notice how he's saying he's,

01:27:45

I had to ask a second time because I want him to just, he's not, not go off on this other tangent. Right.

01:27:51

But that's what he's doing. But the, uh, by the way, this is not a, um, the, the question, everything that you're asking me right now is, uh, off topic,

01:28:05

I believe. I don't know if they, why would the moderator? Okay. So here, here's the thing. I just want to play it to that point.

01:28:11

Cause I want you to notice something. What does he say? He said that this is off topic.

01:28:19

Yeah. Off topic. So asking him the, the, giving the meaning of the five points of Calvinism in a debate on Calvinism is off topic.

01:28:31

But you do know that multiple times that he's actually claimed that I was biased, that, uh, that I was, uh, letting you get by with stuff and I was going after him and being unfair.

01:28:44

No, I wasn't. Well, see the thing, the reason he said that is because there was, there was a time later on where he asked me a question.

01:28:51

I answered it. Yes. And he didn't expect that answer. And I just said, yes. I don't think

01:28:57

I even said more than that. And he asked it again. Right.

01:29:03

So asking again, I'm giving more information because obviously it wasn't clear to him, but he's like,

01:29:09

Oh, I asked you this four times. And he thought you were, you were giving me a pass. But the thing is he asked me a yes, no thing.

01:29:15

I, if I remember correctly, I answered it and that was it. You know, so he was answered. Now he answered my question, but then went off to, to say things that were contradictory to the initial answer.

01:29:28

That's why I had to keep asking it. So there's a difference there. I had to keep asking it because he said two different things and they contradict each other.

01:29:34

So I need to understand what he actually was saying. Okay. That's why we had done that.

01:29:41

Yeah. So, um, you know, I think, I think it's pretty late over there in, in Philippines.

01:29:48

Um, and so what I think we'll do is, you know, and the sad thing is that the, neither of the two pastors that wanted me to set it up at this time showed up.

01:29:58

So, uh, what we'll try to do is set up a time much earlier in the evening over there.

01:30:04

Um, in the Philippines, Pastor Nilo, uh, Friday nights, would people be online or like Friday or Saturday or should we do it during the week?

01:30:16

They would, but for me, I preach in Riyadh. So that's, uh, that's not my day.

01:30:24

Friday is not my day. Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.

01:30:35

That's, that's free for me. But other days I preach in other places.

01:30:40

What, I mean, with people from the Philippines watching, uh, and folks, those of you, you can, if you're from the

01:30:46

Philippines comment, uh, what, what day of the week is good? Is it? Monday, I think is the best.

01:30:52

You think a Monday would be the best? Yeah. Because we just came from church the Sunday.

01:30:58

So Monday we are, we are eager to talk about religious things.

01:31:05

Okay. What, and so we could do a Monday. What, what time you think works well?

01:31:12

After work, after work is seven o 'clock or eight o 'clock. Yeah. So why don't we try to set that for next week and we'll do a bonus episode, a second bonus episode where we want to get other folks.

01:31:24

I know there were lots of people that had opinions, let them come in and share what their thoughts were from the debate. Um, you know,

01:31:30

I kind of gave an overview where, what my thoughts were, why I did some of the things I did. Uh, you know, and, and really

01:31:37

I think that, you know, we've also kind of exposed some of the lies that he's been telling since then. Um, here we go.

01:31:44

Now this is, this is, you know, Pastor Armand says Monday mornings here in the Philippines, that would make it, uh, that would make it evening there.

01:31:52

So, um, yeah, so we'll, if we do it Monday morning here, so it's evening by you and, uh, we'll have to see if we can get

01:31:59

Pastor Armand in. Now, I just want to, I just want to note, you know, I'm looking at this picture, Pastor Armand from your

01:32:06

Facebook. And even though it's a thumbnail, you look a little bit different now. I'm just saying

01:32:11

I've seen you recently. Uh, anyone who knows Pastor Armand knows exactly what

01:32:17

I'm referring to and everyone else who you'll just have to get to know Pastor Armand there. Um, uh, uh,

01:32:24

Pastor Nilo, I just want to thank you for stepping up there and, you know, helping us get the information and, uh, uh, telling us,

01:32:32

Ruth, you know, this is very important, you know, in your community. You know, I know a lot of, a lot of brothers and sisters in the

01:32:38

Philippines as well, and, and missionaries that have been there. And, and I know that people are desperate and desirous for the gospel and for the word of God.

01:32:47

And we just want to, I want to pray that, that God will bless you and, and that your ministry there will grow and that God will allow many to hear the gospel, uh, through the, you know, proclamation of the truth.

01:33:00

So thank you so much for that. God bless. So as we get ready to close out, let me just,

01:33:07

I'll say some, just some things is, you know, we'll, we'll do another show. We'll have my article up, uh, by then, um, you know, one of the things to do is just watch how people behave.

01:33:19

Yeah. Okay. Uh, before we, before we end, uh, may I ask about that, uh, book or booklet that you said there were a lot of diagrams simultaneous, uh, simultaneous, uh, chronological logical screen right there.

01:33:35

What do we, what do we believe that's downloadable? Not yet. Um, yeah, we're there.

01:33:42

There's the, so people have been asking when will it be on Kindle? Um, the reason it hasn't made it to Kindle yet is because the, um, we have to make a change.

01:33:51

So the book was originally copyrights were owned by striving for eternity. Uh, the board decided they wanted those copyrights to be to me, which means

01:34:01

I have to call Amazon and get that all switched over before we do that. So, um, that's been the whole, what format is it now?

01:34:09

Actually, you know on paperback, it may be, hold on. Let me just check it maybe in Kindle and not in paperback.

01:34:15

Okay. Uh, the workbook is on Kindle workbook, uh, workbooks.

01:34:20

Yeah. I downloaded that thinking it was the book, uh, pastor Nilo, you can get the workbook on Kindle.

01:34:26

Um, and the, um, the, the book itself, I think is, uh, up on the website.

01:34:34

Yeah. It may be from striving fraternity. We will get it right now.

01:34:40

You get a 50 % off, so you could get shipping to Philippines is quite expensive. Oh, yes.

01:34:47

But I'll use that for our Riyadh, uh, Saudi Arabia congregation.

01:34:53

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We have, we have a lot of people that use, and that's why we have the workbook that goes along with it.

01:34:58

So people can have the book and then they have the study, you know, that they can see in a small group study. Um, hang on a second, pastor

01:35:06

Nilo. Um, how many, how many people, you know, are you talking about in your group?

01:35:15

And here we have 40. Yes. Okay. Uh, do me a favor and, uh, send me a, a private message and email.

01:35:23

Let's, let's talk. I want to see if I can help help out, uh, uh, get some, get some books from Andrew to your way.

01:35:32

I want to see if I can help it out. Okay, brother. That would be great. Okay. I will try to figure out what it would cost to ship it.

01:35:40

And I'll try to see if I can maybe get the, uh, maybe I'll try to get it up in Kindle before. Well, that'd be better.

01:35:46

Yeah. So I'll look to do that. Okay. So also that one, so what you can do for the hermeneutics.

01:35:55

Uh, so we have the syllabus. Um, what you do for that, if you're in the Philippines, um, the, the syllabus for that should be, and Justin, you could check this.

01:36:05

I think that's on Amazon. Um, I think, and he'll go check.

01:36:11

Um, if not, if it's not an Amazon, then what you could do is contact pastor

01:36:18

Armon. Okay. Do you, do you know pastor Armon at all? Not yet, sir.

01:36:24

Okay. Here, here's a, that's Armon and Jackie Niagro and NGO prime mispronounced it.

01:36:31

And he'll laugh at me. Um, but, uh, if you contact him, they actually do have, uh, it's the only time

01:36:39

I've ever, uh, we've that we as a ministry ever did this. It's how much we trust pastor

01:36:44

Armon. Uh, they, they actually have the rights to make photo, to, to make copies of the syllabus, um, you know, with, you know, to, to make prints of it.

01:36:55

So, uh, they're the, they're the only, the only one outside of the ministry that, that we ever did that for. And we've had a lot of people ask, but we really wanted to get the training on hermeneutics out to the

01:37:05

Philippines and they wanted to get the, the, uh, syllabus. And so we had made an exception for them.

01:37:12

So if you contact him, you'd be able to get a print copies of the syllabus much cheaper.

01:37:19

Yeah. And he, and he's saying, he's saying, please message us. So he's, he's a good brother to get to know.

01:37:25

So, uh, so yeah. So, so in closing, I mean, we're going to, what

01:37:31

I hope folks you see is look at the way someone behaves, even after a debate, I'm not sitting here and I don't think anybody here has heard me on this show or online say,

01:37:42

I won cream. The guy, I defeated the guy. It's, it's not about that.

01:37:48

You know, I'm pointing out some of the things that were done. Why you guys may get into debates. I don't want you guys to be prepared for things.

01:37:54

I want you guys to see behavior. Peel do a lot of times what you have is people will say things that are true, but it's just half the truth.

01:38:00

It's not the full truth. Well, that's something to note. You'll see people that get very defensive as we pointed out, you get, see where people are not answering direct questions.

01:38:13

And so when you have that, you can end up seeing that this is a case where, uh, you're, you'll notice that someone that is attacking a person always saying, well,

01:38:24

I'm the victim. I'm the victim. Uh, I'm pointing out areas where he's lied, but I'm not pointing out going,

01:38:31

Oh, pity me. Why? There's a big difference there. Someone that's always playing the victim card, you know, that, that shows something.

01:38:39

Okay. Um, I know he has blocked me again and that shows you something. Uh, he doesn't, he doesn't want to have the correction.

01:38:48

So, well, just so you know, I found the, um, uh, pastor

01:38:55

Andrew, I found you got it actually pulled up. Yeah. I pulled it up cause I saw your screen. So, okay.

01:39:00

So yeah, we're, we're, we're still working on getting all of our stuff there. I mean, actually in fact, here's, here's, here's what

01:39:07

I'm working on. That's, that's on my pile to get all this onto a Kindle there.

01:39:13

So we're working on it. I'll have to try to work a little faster at it for you.

01:39:18

Okay. So we'll do it. We'll do another show, maybe a Monday night in the

01:39:25

Philippines and, and tonight folks on this same channel, you'll, you'll be able to hear our, uh, my church's midweek

01:39:35

Bible study. We'll be doing a midweek Bible study for grace and truth Bible church. Uh, that will be on first Peter going to be some controversial things tonight for those who want those in the

01:39:45

Philippines. You could check it out in the morning. We're going to go in first Peter three and be talking about some spirits who are imprisoned from Noah's day.

01:39:54

Who are they? That will be interesting. Uh, and then tomorrow night on apologetics live, which will be, uh, you know, uh, for in America, it'd be

01:40:03

Thursday night, Philippines, Friday morning. Uh, we're going to be having a, an expert, probably one of the guys who knows more about Latter -day

01:40:12

Saints, church of Jesus Christ, Latter -day Saints, also known as Mormons than anybody I know else I know other than Sandra Tanner.

01:40:18

Um, and so we're going to have Bill McKeever on, and this is because pastor Justin here had some

01:40:25

Mormons that he got to know. And he's like, Hey, how do I evangelize Mormons? And I told him to get the book. That's right over my shoulder there that I helped write, which is how to share the good news with Mormons.

01:40:34

And so I also encouraged him to get the book that's on the screen right there. What do they believe, which covers that topic as well, uh, that I had written.

01:40:43

And so we are going to talk about how to witness to Mormons. That'll be on the show tomorrow night.

01:40:49

And, uh, so I hope that you guys will check all that out. So pastor

01:40:54

Nilo, thanks for joining us. A bonus episode for you guys of apologetics live.