Debate Report Including Gagnon/Kirk Encounter

And greetings. Welcome to the dividing line. It is a tuesday at 2 p .m i believe it is october 20th of 2015. We are back here in phoenix arizona where uh the weather is tremendously unsettled. At the moment we just i was just uh picking up a sandwich on the way in and all of a sudden i start hearing on my car and it's a hailstorm.

Yes uh it was it was great. It didn't last long thankfully. But we have we have gotten is october. Is that supposed to be a rainy month. Is it. I mean apparently el nino is uh is going to be really um i read this year.

Yeah i read that on that the el nino is bigger than 97 to 98 which is the last big one. So we're gonna we're gonna have one of those seattle style winters apparently. Well you know what. Uh i've been up north enough to know that the uh the forest could use uh well here's all of it.

No doubt. I mean mormon lake is mormon puddle. Well and actually i was up there in august since you mentioned it. And we like to you know do uh rabbit trails here. Yeah uh. And i asked a fellow about that because i'm like you know i've never actually seen a lake out there.

And he said something happened in the late 1980s early 1980s somewhere in there where i guess an aquifer underneath collapsed and the whole lake just went underground. Well no i've seen i've i've been up there many many times riding and i've seen the whole thing filled.

Well you're talking about lake mary. All that. Well like mary. And then down to the camp area on mormon lake too. So i've seen it i've seen it. But anyway uh no question we need the we need the rain. As does southern california.

Uh though i'm not sure that rain can help that stupidity of sacramento. But that's another issue. We are back from south africa and uh it um how we wonderful time wonderful. I'm i'm here. I don't think i've ever have i ever sipped tea before.

Certainly not on the air. Oh my. Um i discovered rebus south african rebus tea. Rebus means red bush in uh probably afrikaans or one of the many zulu i don't know one of the many many languages spoken in south africa.

Is that a bush that's legal in the united states. Amazon thinks it is. That's all i can say. Uh and on could have a whole new meaning to high theology right now on tuesday on tuesday of last week. Well we can go we can go today.

That's first time i had rebus was a week ago today. Now why would that matter. Because i needed something to help my voice. Oh my goodness when you hear the audio of the monday night debate uh with use of s mail in downtown durban at this echo chamber we ended up in.

We didn't know till sunday. We thought we were going to be in a mosque. We thought we were going to be in the juman masjid. We thought it'd be well attended. None of those things were true. Um uh if once you hear the audio i did not even realize how bad my voice was until i tried to actually start speaking with a public speaking voice.

I bet man i'll tell you i was a certain i was going to make it through i that was some of the worst laryngitis i've had. And part of it was just simply strain. Um and part of it was i haven't even added up how many hours i spent in a plane between flying to zurich.

Kiev kiev back to zurich to heathrow to phoenix two weeks later phoenix heathrow heathrow joberg joberg durban durban joberg joberg heathrow heathrow phoenix. Um but what happens in those many many many many many many hours uh in that enclosed cabin as you're with.

Well through all that probably what 1500 different people. And uh there's there'll be a lot of diseases in those 1500 people and uh you end up with and i i've i've gotten really good at it. I take a supplement called epicor that really really helps uh it turbocharges your immune system and if you get anything if i get anything anymore it normally is much minimized and goes a lot faster.

But i got something you can still hear something in my in my chest and i'm telling you i was putting the pedal to the metal. As far as trying to give me power give me speech and just there wasn't much coming out.

It was that was that was one of the toughest debates i've done just simply on the physical level of trying to speak. It's amazing how much energy it takes to try to speak when you can't speak. And when you're trying to debate at the same time it was uh it was something else.

Well tuesday i'm at uncle dennis's house and i'm gonna tell you something. Uh dennis palais uh his his son uh adrian his family have been so kind to rudolf and i when we come down to durban that's where i stayed the last two times that uh well i've only been out there two times but um and uncle dennis is the the king of cola tonic.

Uh he makes the best cola tonic on the planet. Oh it's just good stuff. They sent me back we even stopped and bought me the the tonic that he uses and i got it back in one piece a bottle a glass bottle.

I got it back in one piece and um but i just don't have the skill and evidently i don't have the ingredients quite quite right. I made one yesterday. It was okay but maybe it's just the location. Maybe it's just dennis's uncle dennis's smiling face.

I don't know um but uh anyway they were saying what you need something warm. And i thought you know what you know warm to drink. I never drink warm stuff. Oh okay last winter i got into a little bit of tea for a while.

But yeah we live in arizona most of the time you just well you drink coffee. But i i just never gotten the coffee thing. It's just not. I just don't like taste it anyway. So they say you need ruibos. Uh and so they make me some ruibos tea and uh i start uh i start putting that down my throat.

Oh it does feel good on the throat. Let me tell you something it really really does. Um and it has the most unique taste. Oh my i i normally it wouldn't be something i would do but maybe it was just the context and the fellowship and you know all that stuff.

But i love it. Good stuff good stuff. So when people say would you like some tea in the future i'm not be so quick to say no. They got any ruibos. Um good stuff good stuff. Oh by the way while i was down in durban before i'm gonna forget this if i don't mention this uh wednesday night we had a great debate in durban with ayub kareem.

He's the head of ikra and you know they did a great job uh organizing it. And um ayub kareem is the is my akhmed didot debate partner. Okay ayub's a wonderful guy a little older than i am. Uh both got grandkids about the same age.

And now because ayub debates like akhmed didot uses akhmed didot's arguments ayub doesn't understand what i believe and so i have to spend a lot of time correcting things. But the reality is that's what you have to do with the vast majority of muslims.

And so he engages in debate in a honest fashion with integrity. And uh we had we had a great debate on the deity of christ and i got to correct all sorts of misapprehensions. I got to respond to the didot challenge and to just all sorts of stuff and it was it was a great evening.

It really was. And the muslims were very attentive and they listened carefully and i really really did appreciate that. It was good evening. Well during the break there were some young guys there from the area and one of them gave me a cd of his music seb goldswayne and he's a guitarist.

I love guitar music um my son for example is taking has been taking for years lessons uh from just one of the most fantastic guitarists around today uh jason truby is his name and um i love listening to truby stuff and in fact i was i have a truby playlist in itunes that i was listening to while preparing for the debates and putting the the keynotes together and stuff like that so acoustic guitar great stuff.

And so seb said well here's uh i want i want to give you my uh my album here. And he said you're mentioned in the uh liner notes and so i i didn't open it up standing there and the audience didn't have time to but and i couldn't listen because who puts a cd drive in a computer anymore.

Seriously my macbook pro doesn't have a cd drive because it's so thin i mean it's a mechanical. You gotta have a little motor in there and you can only make motors so thin evidently. So i just now got a chance to burn this.

Um because these two macbook pros still have them and so now i've got them in my library. Uh but uh he he says my heroes and role models. He mentions some people and then the last two he mentions are james white and charles haddon spurgeon.

I'm maybe we're just close in age maybe maybe there's these are in the order of age i'm not sure um for each of your glowing bodies of work which have received thousands of hours of attention and focus and have shaped me as a musician human being in ways i can't possibly begin to understand or thank you enough for so i thought that was really special.

That was really cool. So hey uh turn up the turn up the volume here i've got one i've got one here just uh.

Just queued up for a second. Uh we can. It's called meditation. There you go there's uh.

Seb goldsway pictures of a thousand words is the uh is the uh album there and he gave that to me during the break in the debate wednesday night in durban south africa as we were talking about the arguments that were being made and and so on so forth so uh seb there you go uh much appreciate that and i'm sure that i will uh get to listen to that.

I have an acoustic only playlist that we'll be putting there and maybe put together a jason truby seb goldsway playlist for future uh times when i'm working on presentations so on so forth so there you go um i actually want to report on five debates.

I did four spoke a number of times spoke at antioch bible church tim cantrell and the folks there. I've spoken there every time that i've been in south africa so far and uh they're in the johannesburg area and um always encouraging always good to be with them uh get a chance to preach and uh a large church for evangelical churches and i mean sound evangelical churches in south africa and so very uh very very good.

Um kofi says uh listen to the dividing line and dr over the 1689 starts spinning some tunes one ever knows what will happen on the dl. Well this is true. I am a former disc jockey so uh but i've ever wondered kofi what spinning a tune meant.

I used to spin tunes. I mean i've got a picture someplace of me a senior in high school as a disc jockey and uh you can see the 33 rpm vinyl records over there uh on the turntables and and that's uh that's how you played music back then and uh so that's what it was to spin a tune to spin that disc anyways um so as you know our main as i mentioned let's put that way i was pretty concerned about the schedule that we have for south africa.

It's a fairly short trip but a pretty intense one. Um because i was arriving thursday when did i get in thursday morning and the debate was friday night and so you know that first day you can sort of muddle your way through but it's really the second third days where nine time zones catches up to you you know anymore when people you know when i fly across the us three hours big deal but nine time zones it's gonna catch up with you.

The worst though is going to australia that's 17 the other direction it's just leaves you completely befuddled as to what's going on where you are and everything else. And i was very focused upon the debate with graham codrington for a couple reasons um he's a professional speaker he is he's known around the world uh speaking in the field of futurism um trends and economics uh employment business so on and so forth.

Um he speaks all over the place. And and i had spoken with michael fallon. Michael has seen him speak and michael was like wow this is gonna be one of the toughest debates we've ever had. So when michael said that i'm like okay all right i i'm not i'm not certainly not going to um walk into this one thinking this is going to be easy.

And of course i had read all of uh graham's blog articles which he had posted which was very helpful um and he had done a very good job in collating uh the revisionist arguments in support of homosexuality.

And today that's not easy to do because there are so many and there are now so many people pushing this movement that they're coming up with new stuff all the time uh all of which fundamentally undercuts biblical authority as we're about to see here in a moment but um that's that's the way it works.

So i was pretty focused upon upon graham codrington had spent most of my time in fact i i put together my presentations for um the two debates of durbin with yusuf ismail after that because i've totally been focused upon on graham codrington.

So i was a little concerned um it was very warm. Johannesburg was having a heat wave there's almost very little air conditioning available and we had the debate at a at a really nice church um and thankfully they had air conditioning and uh so because when we first walked in i was like oh this is going to be a really long night.

But then i heard somebody say we need to get the aircon on. It's like oh good. Um so it was really nice it was live streamed. So many of you have already gotten to see it at least uh the live stream uh rich said it.

Your comment was it seems like you're next door. Oh yeah it was like you were right. I was in the same room with you. Yeah it was. It was awesome. Yeah so that was uh that was good. Um and fundamentally you know i i have here this is my uh notebook that i use for my debates my live scribe pen which dummy me i didn't know that the new live scribe pen if i don't have it bluetooth connected to my ipad.

It doesn't record the audio. So i didn't. It's not good. We already have the audio of the codrington debate. We're just waiting for the video actually um so it doesn't make any difference. And it wouldn't have made any difference even if i had recorded both the ismail use of ismail and uh you have cream debates because given the sound quality of where i was sitting wouldn't have been able to understand anyways.

But i'll remember that next time. But i have my notes here and it is helpful to have them because it certainly reminds me of uh what was going on and uh you know brings things back to mind. Um but i mentioned five debates because i did the debate with graham codrington.

And then one week and one day later i attended a debate here in phoenix. I had gotten word of this on facebook that there was going to be a debate between daniel kirk who teaches at fuller's northern california campus and dr robert gagnon.

Now of course dr gagnon is really the leading scholar in this field. Um all of us are very indebted to him for a lot of the work that he has done. And some of you may recall what about four months ago five months ago something like that.

Uh he was on unbelievable. And uh i think i played did i play portions of that. Or did i just mention it. You're not you're you're looking at me strangely. So you don't see this at the perfect temperature right now.

It's no longer scalding but it's still nice and warm. It's uh it's good stuff. Well if i didn't i should have i i'm sure i at least made reference to the very interesting encounter he had with a lesbian anglican woman on the unbelievable radio broadcast and uh it got it got a little heated.

Uh shall we say. And i know justin briarley pretty well having been on the program out and how many times 14 17 i've lost count. Um and i can i can just see because they were in studio this wasn't something where somebody was on the phone or something like that.

I i can i can just see justin's face. He's trying to dial dial down the the temperature in that particular encounter. Anyway um uh dr gagnon is a straightforward debater shall we say. And so i you know it was the next morning right after i landed i knew i was going to be 100 functional but i decided to show up dr gagnon wears bow ties.

And so i had actually bought him a bow tie to give as a gift. Uh and i wore my one of my bow ties and it was a little scary because i had like seven people just walk up to me out of the blue and knew who i was.

And i talked twice. Great to have you here and so on and so forth. I didn't expect anyone. I thought i'd be a little bit incognito though. Maybe the bow tie was not a idea anyway. Um uh somebody in channel says uh yeah some people yeah you did play it.

So some people in channel are saying definitely so um that debate getting to sit there and be quiet and to know that your position was going to be adequately defended. That was enjoyable. It really was.

I mean um you know it wasn't close. Uh kirk did not present any meaningful arguments that dr gagnon did not thoroughly refute. But what really concerned me was the combination of the two debates. And let me explain why this is where you might want to tune in.

People like to say they skip the first 10 minutes. But okay that was all background. For i think something is pretty important. I have said for a long period of time that the quote-unquote gay christian movement simply cannot maintain even a surface level christianity.

It cannot maintain christian orthodoxy. Because if it's fundamentally compromised view of scripture um they don't believe in scriptural sufficiency. They can't. The forms of argumentation that they use to get around the clear teaching of scripture will require them to adopt a hermeneutic and a system of theology that is so different than what christians have always understood scripture to be that the the flow that brought us the central doctrines of the faith the trinity the deity of christ the person of the holy spirit the whole concept of atonement and salvation and all of eschatology.

And eschatology is much more than the various views of millenniums. Eschatology is heaven and hell and punishment and final justice and all the rest of that kind of stuff um cross resurrection everything that's absolutely central to the christian faith.

There was a hermeneutical system that gave us those things. But to affirm that god approves of and wants us to approve of homosexuality for the profaning of marriage all the rest of these things requires such a radical departure in the interpretation of scripture that there's no way you can any longer maintain those other doctrines.

Now you may still you may be schizophrenic. You may be a matthew vines that says i'm an evangelical or a or a justin lee or even a graham codrington. But if someone starts pushing you to be consistent it's a house of cards.

It's gonna it's gonna collapse because you've gutted it of what the thing that makes christianity christianity and that is this is a supernatural faith. It's been revealed by god in scripture. All right.

So it has been. My thesis has been my assertion. You all have heard it. Those of you who've regularly listened you've heard me say this over and over and over again. But now i have two glowing examples of it.

And once the videos are available because both of them were recorded i'll probably put together a screen flow to show you. So what do i mean. Well let's start with graham. I mentioned before i went to south africa that in listening to graham codrington's discussion of romans 1 i was blown away.

I was blown away. Why. Because his fundamental argument on romans 1 well he he backed off on this in the debate. I mean if you knew what his position was you can still hear he was saying it. But he knows better.

He knows in his heart of hearts that the position he has now taken in romans 1 is so radical that it's indefensible. It can only be of use to the already convinced. And that was the position that fundamentally romans 1 18 through 32 is a greek rhetorical device where paul is quoting from a jewish source and people like to point the wisdom of solomon.

Though there are some actually fundamental differences uh between the wisdom of solomon and paul's understanding. But that may be something we may we may want to look at. In fact i would i would recommend to you if you have a copy of the apocrypha that you read the wisdom of solomon especially chapters 11 through 15 or so.

And there are some fascinating parallels to what paul says. There's also some fascinating differences that tend to get glossed over. But anyway um the idea is that he is giving the standard jewish understanding of that day.

And then in chapter 2 he says but who are you. He changes the point of address. And now what he's doing is he's arguing against the jews and the position that was just enunciated in verses 18 through 32.

So the rest of the book is an argument against verses 18 through 32. And he jumps all the way to chapter 14. I mean talk about skipping massive context changes and everything else. I mean it's it's uh it just destroys romans just.

And that's why like i said 1994 article calvin porter a couple of people have picked up on that it is such a tiny little minority view off the corner someplace. But hey the homosexual movement will use anything.

It doesn't matter. Um the last thing they're concerned about is maintaining any kind of biblical exegesis. So grab anything you can. But um it makes mincemeat out of the book. Romans jump to romans chapter 14.

And the whole idea is judge do not be judging one another. And so it's the you know you're trying to get peace between the jews and the gentiles and the church. And that's what romans was although well that is not the exegesis that led the church to any of its orthodox beliefs.

And graham starts off talking about how he's an evangelical christian. Um how uh the bible is god's final authority. Those are his specific words. I'm looking at my notes here um and yet once you adopt this type of radical reinterpretation of something as central as i mean romans 1 1832 is part and parcel of paul's her martiology his doctrine of sin.

So once you dismiss that what what are you going to do. I mean you can't put it back together again. And the only reason you've done this is to get around versus 26 and 27. That's the only reason. And so here you have this this willingness and and by the way i i had an interesting experience.

Why is this cooling down so fast. I need i need a more insulated mug for the future because we're only we're only halfway through and it's it's really we'll find out what the microwave does after the program's over.

That's too good to throw out. Um i had a very interesting experience during the break in the debate. Graham comes up to me with a older lady next to him introduces me. It's his mom and he says i want you to know she's firmly on your side now that that was almost as weird as when george bryson's wife went after him after the debate for not having brought this up and that up and all the rest of this kind of stuff.

It was like really see graham is a graduate of the baptist union seminary down there in south africa and a lot of people in the conservative churches knew who he was and so um you know there are even people in his family that are rooting for the other side on this in this particular debate.

So that was a strange experience. But the point is here's a guy who though he has a conservative background has been moving farther and farther and farther away from that conservative background. And the question is why.

Well the bible's teaching on sexual ethics and morality is not difficult to discern. But once you buy the idea that the church has been wrong and the church has been mistreating our lgbtq rstuv wxyz brothers and sisters so you just you grab hold of experience you meet some people and you meet some lovely people some kind people who experience same-sex attraction and may even have come to the conclusion that they can act on same-sex attraction.

But you know what. They're nice people. And i've never met people like that before. And there are many conservatives who have the idea that if you hold to fundamentally aberrant theological beliefs you must be a weird person in real life.

And because a lot of us stay in a shell and don't meet these people once we do and find out that many of them are real nice people that may even root for the same teams we do or have the same sports interests we do.

Well they can't be all that bad and our priorities get all mixed up because we just really haven't thought these things through. I mean if arias and athanasius if they had lived in our day and they had had a televised debate it would have been a wipeout.

What do i mean by that athanasius evidently was a little dark swarthy unattractive dude and arias evidently was a good-looking tall guy who could sing up a storm could put words to music could entertain the audience could sway people right and left.

And so in our day of a visual decision an emotional decision where we are we are moved by our emotions rather than by our minds which is what makes us humans actually is the mind part. But anyway um in our day athanasius wouldn't have had a chance wouldn't have had a chance.

And so when people come out of a conservative background and discover that homosexuals can be really nice people nice in a worldly sense all of a sudden they start questioning the foundations especially if they've only taken in and understand homosexuality is wrong just by osmosis rather than being convinced of it by the positive teaching of scripture regarding god's purposes and sexuality and marriage and male and female and so on so forth.

And then that is the ground for understanding the uh the negative texts in their proper context and seeing it as a as a whole. You know it's sort of like the same thing with roman catholicism. You know if you raise the baptist you know the roman catholic is just going to hell just because they are.

And then you meet a roman catholic and they know what they believe. And if you are opposed to roman catholicism solely out of tradition and taste and even bigotry you run into a a good roman catholic apologist and they can knock you right off your pins because you weren't really convinced uh for the right reasons.

So i think that's what happened to graham. And the problem is once you make the decision that you know what i've decided that these people are my brothers and sisters in christ. Now what determines whether someone is your brother or sister in christ your emotions your personal feelings.

I mean there is an objective standard that is supposed to determine these things. There isn't. There's an objective uh delineation of what christian theology is and who is and who is not a brother or sister in christ.

And but a lot of people just don't think about that. They don't allow that to determine their their priorities and their thought patterns. And so you meet somebody and it's like well maybe i've maybe i've misunderstood these things.

Well no actually you've just never really understood why it's important to view the scriptures in the way that we do and so on so forth. But the reality is um you're still not in a good position to be doing biblical exegesis because before you were operating on surface level tradition now you're operating on emotion.

Neither one of them is the basis for doing exegesis neither one. So i think that's what's happened here. And what you see is just this this pendulum swing. And it may be slow or it may be fast depends on the individual.

Um it may start off slow and then accelerate in time. But the reality is there's no stopping point. There's no you know once you've abandoned the only meaningful means of doing exegesis a a high view of scripture and understanding of it is being theanoustas.

That's it. You can keep saying you believe it. But you're eventually going to collapse. Now what does this have to do with the second debate. Well i'm going to tell you something. I'm it's starting to get weird for me.

I don't know if this happens for everybody. Um a couple years ago i was sitting in uh dr michael kruger's office in charlotte um talking with dr kruger and dr anderson when all of a sudden i realized i was the oldest person in the room.

Now he's the president. Of course the president of the seminary. And dr anderson had been one of our channel rats back in the late 90s. Oh yeah yeah he was our edinburgh channel rat at night one of our ops.

And uh here i am. I'm the oldest guy in the room. And uh i just don't feel that old. Uh i certainly don't act that old. I think we both kind of still feel like we're back there in the 80s and the early 90s.

We're in our 20s and we're just still cranking along. Well not so much 20 as i am a grandfather. But uh well it doesn't always correlate. Yeah expecting expecting the second here summer wants to wants to go for october 31st to have a reformation day.

Baby. Uh so uh hey i'm i'm all for it. I'm i i think that would be. I think that'd be great anyway. Um just as well i don't care when the baby comes as long as she doesn't have to labor for 44 hours again.

Okay that's that's summer. We were all we're all pulling for you on the no more record labors. Please. Uh for for all of our sakes. Um man that's good. Wow. And you have to i have to make you a cup list.

You might you might actually like it anyway. Um dr kirk is not an elderly man. Um he's not an elderly man. And uh when i when i looked him up he teaches theology in fuller norcal and is a graduate of westminster seminary in philadelphia.

But then he did his phd at duke. Folks let me tell you something. If you haven't already realized that the big name universities are to their core opposed to the lordship of jesus christ. I'm not talking about westminster.

I'm talking about duke. If you haven't realized that these places that people go. Oh you went to the great school. What makes it great. When when are we as christians going to realize that that doing education on a worldly basis leads to worldly christians.

Um went to duke. He had the opening statement. And he gets up. And we may be going more than an hour today. I hope you don't mind. Um though i may have. I'm. Could you wear my tia. Seriously it's helping.

My voice is a little bit on the on the iffy side and it's no longer doing its nice hot warm thingy. So because i'm such a nice just because you're such a nice guy i appreciate that. He gets up. And he says i'm not really going to talk about what the bible says about homosexuality today.

Uh he says the fact dr gagna and i probably pretty much agree that when the bible addresses the subject of homosexuality um it's universally negative in what it says. Debate over. Well not quite. Not quite.

Um so what happens. What's his. What's his argument. Fundamentally here is the. And he wandered around. And i guess this was his coming out. I guess this was his big announcement that he is now gay affirming you know.

Um and um so the argument fundamentally was this gentile inclusion into the church. Gentile inclusion in the church. Um he points out that the biblical testimony for circumcision is that it's to be an eternal thing.

He even brought up sabbath keeping point being that you can make a strong biblical case against gentile inclusion. And yet the spirit did a new thing. And therefore his argument is that in light of the clarity of the fact that our lgbtq brothers and sisters love god and give clear testimony to that loving of god then the spirit is doing a new thing in our day.

And therefore we should follow the lead of the spirit. Now dr gagman pointed out obviously he had a whole slide just simply on this the fundamental differences between the inclusion of the gentiles in the church and the subject of homosexuality.

And he pointed out that obviously the old testament had prophesied this as the new testament says. I don't think dr kirk would accept that because i discovered that dr kirk's view of scripture is unbelievably.

How do i put it. The term is not weak. It is unorthodox. It is unbelieving the only way to put it you'll see what i mean in a moment. But he pointed out that that was a a bad argument and that there was a fundamental difference the gentiles were separated from the community of israel and god had broken down that wall through the work of jesus christ to make one church.

And it had always it had always been his intention to do exactly that. There is no prophetic announcement of some future work of the spirit where a fundamental moral law based upon god's creative purpose in male and female was somehow going to be overturned in the same way.

But it was right toward the end of dr kirk professor at fuller theological seminary. Now everybody got all excited a few weeks ago i didn't get a chance to mention this and i didn't bring this up. But everybody got all excited a few weeks ago because fuller denied tenure um to a professor because that professor um uh affirms gay marriage and so they they denied tenure to him.

Uh let me see if uh if i have this in here someplace. Um yeah i don't see it here because i'm sure it was after the kim davis stuff. Um no no there it is. No it is him. Okay. Well i wondered about this and now i've got a little more information for you for the seminary decided not to offer tenure to a new test professor jr daniel kirk.

His view of marriage does not comport with jesus's view. So everybody was all excited about this and it ends up being the same guy. He didn't mention this during the debate but same fellow. Um i went up to dr kirk after the debate to make sure that i had heard him correctly and what he had said.

And i'm just here to tell you right now it's one thing to deny tenure to a person but as long as you let him keep teaching your students. I'm not impressed. Okay i'm not impressed. There are lots of seminaries today that would love to have dr kirk teaching for them.

I mean go to claremont graduate school. You can't even get a job at claremont if you believe in the deity of christ. Yeah there's plenty of plenty of place to get a job teaching. I went up to him and i asked him if i had heard him correctly.

What he said toward the end of his presentation was this. We need to allow the spirit to lead us to change our ways of thinking and to even cause us to think in ways that are different than the apostles and even different than jesus.

And i'm just sitting here going. Did i did i just hear this man say that the spirit of god is leading us so that even though we have the mind of christ we should think differently than christ did. Because he wasn't he wasn't trying to argue that jesus held that homosexuality was a thing to get from god.

He knows better. So i went up and asked him and he said well yeah he said jesus was wrong about a lot of things. He had a lot of mistaken ideas. He was a man like you and i and then you know what his example was.

He said for example at least three different times jesus said moses wrote the pentateuch. Nobody believes that anymore. And in fact what he said was even dr gagnon doesn't believe that. So i'm i'm dumbfounded.

I shouldn't be i graduated from fuller. I mean i know i i i had to read all the books. But i guess it's still a good thing that when faced with just rank unbelief just and i explained to him i said sir i i defend the trinity and the deity of christ in debates with muslims.