Cultish - The Church of Wells Pt. 1

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Except a wife and not a husband you'd accept flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone disgraceful

00:06

Richard absolutely shameful You should know Richard that for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten

00:13

Son And you don't think that Jesus Christ is going to judge you for shedding his blood Shedding his blood in the blood of his people

00:20

You sit there, so proudly with your phone man. I'm asking you to get off my property Shame on you.

00:25

This is and stop property. This is church property where I'm not Shame on you

00:31

Building a case taking up a reproach against your neighbor all we've ever done has done kind things for you, man

00:37

I'm gonna keep recording you till the sheriff shows up My he's gonna judge you and your knees gonna bow before him on the day of judgment

00:48

And you've preached a false gospel that will not save your wife. It will not save your children that it's a false gospel

00:55

It's a gospel my wife my wife and my children And I are asking you to stop speaking to us turn around and go the other way

01:01

Now you're leading them to hell Richard. I'm asking you to turn around you are sending your go the other way

01:09

Absolutely shameful you're building yourself bigger barns Bigger barns and bigger things Matt God's gonna judge you you don't think he won't judge you for these mark

01:17

I'm asking you to shut up and turn around and leave us alone. That's foul language

01:22

No foul language foul behavior. Why can you not bridle your it's clear language shut the mouth

01:27

That means shut up. Shut the mouth and turn around. I don't want to listen to you. I don't want you on my property Disgraceful language from a man who calls himself a

01:36

Christian. We'll let the sheriff decide if what he thinks about this get off my property All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

01:47

My name is Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here I've been super excited many a times

01:53

Throughout the history of cultish this could be the most super excited. I've been in a long long time, right?

02:00

I'm here with Andrew the super sleuth of the show. How are you doing, man? I'm doing great I feel the same way you do. This is about a conversation about two and a half years in the making

02:08

I remember speaking with our guests on the phone about two and a half years ago So it's I'm just very grateful that uh that he's here.

02:15

Yeah, so we are here with Matt Meyer and We are gonna be talking about the

02:21

Church of Wells In fact, the audio you just heard is a video that you can look up on YouTube right now

02:27

If you type in the Church of Wells This is one of the first results for one of the number one results.

02:32

You'll see in YouTube and and this is a confrontation that happened between one of the members of the

02:39

Church of Wells and Matt and We're gonna be just kind of really unraveling all different aspects of who the church

02:46

Call who the Church of Wells are what they're about what their beliefs are and we're just going to unravel that because much of the information that's been surrounding the

02:56

Church of Wells has just been a lot of hype sensationalism misinformation and hopefully this will be a

03:03

Really good unpacking of what it was really going on right now and wells what has been going on the last several years

03:10

So enough of us Matt. How are you doing, man? Doing good glad to be with you guys

03:16

Awesome. Awesome. And so yeah, we just want to maybe take you back from the beginning So I remember when we were initially speaking on the phone

03:25

You would talk with us a little bit about Your interactions and how you got all the way down to being next door at the

03:32

Church of Wells Which is where that video conference that audio? Confrontation took place but you initially you're living in Oregon and then you worked your way down to Wells Can you share everyone the story about how?

03:44

You initially went down there and how what was your first interactions with Wells and what that was like? Yeah, I'd be glad to and you know, there's been a lot of I guess

03:56

Confusion even here in Wells among some locals as to how that all came about So I guess to start if you'd like I can start in 2012.

04:05

It's a little ways back almost 10 years ago We had a friend we were living in Oregon I had a roofing company and we had a friend from church.

04:16

Her name is Michelle. I don't mind mentioning her name She we heard she had come to Texas and she was emailing us and telling us she found this amazing group of Christians and she had found a church and then her emails changed a little bit and She found she was not saved and she had

04:37

Somehow come to realize that she was a false Christian we thought that was all a little little strange, but you know those things do happen and So We kind of just let that slide and kept in touch with her a little bit.

04:53

Well the next year 2013 We got noticed that she was going to be married and We thought she was just gonna go to Texas for a little bit of time

05:05

But at this point, obviously it was clear that she was there to stay and you know It was really quite amazing looking back on how

05:12

God just has arranged everything and does everything in his sovereignty, but We happened to be driving across country in I think it was

05:21

January 2013 in a motorhome and we got an email that said

05:27

From Michelle said I'm getting married tomorrow. We were in Missouri at the time visiting college friends

05:33

She said I'm getting married tomorrow in Nacogdoches now Nacogdoches is about 20 minutes away They did not have a building at the time the

05:40

Church of Wells did not so They were doing their marriages at Millard's crossing at a little historical

05:45

Chapel. So we raced down there We thought you know, we really ought to get down there. We had never done any research on this group

05:53

We did not know they were a cult. We did not know That they had a lot of things in the news at the time

06:01

There wasn't a whole lot on them, but we didn't even search. We just we thought we were going to a wedding for our friend

06:08

And that it was going to be a normal wedding of course we got down there and I Can't I cannot describe it to be honest,

06:21

I'll do my best but unless you've experienced This type of I would say spirit behind this group

06:30

It was like as soon as we opened the door to the motorhome It was like we were in the Twilight Zone and that's not an overstatement

06:39

It was just bizarre and the people were coming up to us immediately Asking for our testimony asking us to share our faith and really coming at us like questioning and assuming that we were

06:53

Not trustworthy that our testimony wasn't valid Well long story short

07:01

The wedding started There was I don't know 60 to 80 people in there and It was very clear

07:10

Right off the bat that this something was wrong here. There was about a two -hour Sermon hellfire and brimstone, which was strange for a wedding and The more and more as things progressed

07:24

I thought to myself I Thought Lord, I've got to do something.

07:29

This is our friends in trouble and the singing as an example See the

07:36

Church of Wells has progressed now they sing to be honest a little more modern. They almost sound like Bethel or Hillsong sometimes which you might find surprising but back then it was hymns only all a cappella

07:50

Militant at the top of your lungs everyone in unison I felt like I was in some place like North Korea where there was an army around me.

07:58

It was very bizarre Yeah Didn't you mention Matt that when you initially went into the trailer when you first showed up there that just they separated you and your wife from each other

08:08

They did the women were walking around with their babies and back then they were a little more bold They all had little switches a lot of them had little switches with them for discipline that they would carry around with them there was a lot of from my wife's experience because she got pulled away with the women into the women's room a lot of switching a lot of disciplining children and She found it very troubling that she could hear the the switching and there wasn't any crying and we have nine children

08:36

We've done a lot of child raising ourself. Yeah that that really struck her as as troubling

08:43

And so in other words like the kids were just so Used to it like they couldn't they wouldn't even really

08:49

Respond emotionally to the discipline. I don't know. I just I just know because I wasn't there

08:55

She's the one that heard that with the women. I just know that When you spank a child or switch a child

09:03

They typically cry that's right. Everyone knows that I got spanked when I was a kid you know, it's it hurts and To to spank a child with no

09:14

Sounds of crying was a an indicator just one of many indicators that something was funny here, right?

09:22

right, they did separate us and Right right off the

09:28

Just a few few seconds after we got out of our motorhome and they were basically interrogating us immediately

09:37

Gotcha and then so so after all that so you're at the at the wedding and you've got this two -and -a -half -hour fire -and -brimstone

09:45

Sermon again, that's just extraordinarily odd. I mean even lengthwise even if it's any length

09:51

I mean to go two -and -a -half hours at a wedding. That's a little Overbearing. It's a big celebratory Yes a representation of what

09:57

Jesus did for us between also a husband, you know laying his life down for now his wife

10:03

Becoming one flesh. So yeah So, what did you do well this and this was nothing

10:10

Celebratory at all at least from my perspective. I don't know how they view it as members of the Church of Wells, but this was very very much a sermon of judgment the the bride, of course

10:21

Typically comes from the back here comes the bride comes down the aisle Well, she's there right in the front by herself listening to the same thing.

10:28

I'm listening to this this sermon screaming and So what here's what happened?

10:36

I Just couldn't get the thought out of my mind that we have got to do something now My wife had a newborn at the time and she went out to the

10:42

RV to nurse the baby and while she was out there She did some quick Google searches and she found all the information about Baby faith that they allowed to die

10:54

For lack of medical care that had just happened. I believe in 2012. So this was a few months after that so I was in there by myself my wife had left and One of the elders who was preaching said let's pray and I said,

11:11

I Just said God here we go. This is it I didn't I mean I just knew I had to stop this or try and I stood up in the middle of this

11:21

Wedding that we had been invited to this was our friend. We'd known her for years Stood up I walked down the aisle

11:32

Because looking back because it's a cult and the uniformity, you know, everybody had their eyes closed there was no one peeking around, you know, they were a 100 % on on cue and Nobody saw

11:44

I went down And I'll never forget I whispered in her ear. She was right there at the front and I said

11:50

Michelle There's no coincidence that God has allowed us to be here at your wedding.

11:55

You have got to get out of here. Hmm Wow, and she stood and she stood up and I don't remember how this happened.

12:02

I just know that we walked down the aisle back to the back of the chapel We ended up at the back face to face the door was right there and for whatever reason we stopped and Then it was just me and her looking at each other and she looked so afraid and so confused.

12:19

I'll never forget. She just looked Looked horrified and she looked at me and said could you could you say that again?

12:27

And I said it again and this time heads had I could see I could hear around me people were watching us

12:33

But it was silent. I Said Michelle, it's no coincidence. God has allowed us to be here. You've got to get out of here now at this point

12:41

I could see in her eyes she had a lot of confusion and Was was scared to death and she looked at me and then she looked at someone else

12:50

She looked at me she did two or three back and forth and She kind of clenched her jaw and this look came over her face of resolution and she said

12:58

I won't deny Christ Wow, and then she she spun around spun around and I got kind of shuffled out the door and some young kid

13:11

Pulled me aside and said what what did you do? How what what have you how what have you done?

13:17

He was astonished and That young man was Sean Morris and he proceeded to in astonishment try to figure out what in the world had just happened

13:28

So she ended up getting married and and there's a that's just the beginning of our I guess you'd say that's our first experience with the

13:35

Church of Wells and There's a lot more to that, of course and how we ended up here.

13:41

Yeah, okay So you you have that initial confrontation then eventually how did you end up getting the property that?

13:49

Ended up just being right next door to them because I mean I want to clear that up as well, too Just because there even were comments on our social media even the last couple days who are saying that you somehow

14:00

Got there to kind of be right there or you were almost like a false flag or you think he lives right behind the church

14:07

Yeah Suspicious ill intentions, but you just share the story of how you

14:12

I remember you sharing with us about two years ago It's pretty it's pretty interesting to you because I mean, I'll just say to it.

14:18

Yeah, go ahead. Just share that well, it is because it involves someone escaping the Church of Wells and so Let me try to condense this because there's so much involved and so that was 2013.

14:30

She got married about a year later we Decided we're still in Oregon Uh, see

14:38

I'm looking at my notes here because the years get confusing 2014 March of 2014 We decided let's get in the motorhome again.

14:44

Let's go to Wells let's see if we can get our friend Michelle out of this cult and we got in the motorhome with I think we had seven maybe maybe eight kids at the time and We went cross -country came to Wells and We were unsuccessful.

15:02

We she wouldn't answer the door. We were hoping we would just say hey get out of here You know come with us and she would leave

15:08

But what happened who was quite different than that? What happened was a former member

15:15

Chris Faulkner, he's been out of this thing for many years He called me we had just got acquainted a few weeks before I'm in Wells.

15:24

We had a month out here. We stayed in a campsite in our motorhome and he knew I was here He called me and said

15:30

Matt. Are you in Wells? I said, yeah, we're still here a couple weeks He said there's a young guy in Wells he's hiding in the woods.

15:38

He feels like he's going crazy He wants to get out of this place. Can you go in town and get him out of there?

15:46

and Of course we did we came into town

15:52

I found this guy and he got in the car, excuse me and He fled

16:00

I mean this was he escaped it he didn't tell anyone and we got him out well So that that incident happened.

16:06

So I saw I was starting to see. Hey, there's there's a place here for for people to help get people out of this this mess this disaster of a group this this cult

16:19

Wow and At the same time as that was happening other people had the same ideas

16:24

Lots of people parents and friends were thinking as this cult was growing the Church of Wells How can we stop this thing?

16:31

And there was a man up in Pennsylvania that was talking to me about buying like a ministry house That we could use to help house parents or people looking for their kids

16:42

Which used to happen a lot more parents would come looking So this is all within a couple of weeks.

16:48

We came down to try to get our friend out didn't find her Got this other man out Helped him get on his feet and Then we saw a house for sale the house we live in now 39 ,000 cash.

17:00

I thought hey, you can't beat that and I just bought it on the spot cash

17:08

I I didn't really know what I was gonna do with it. I didn't really have plans to move here and I need to clarify.

17:15

This is really important This house was at a dead -end street and still is and all that was around us is an empty cow pasture

17:24

There was nothing there we went home and in April my neighbor sent me a text message with a photo and the photo had a picture of what looked like a very large wooden foundation and He said

17:36

Matt. I think the cult is building Something next to your house Wow, we didn't we went back to Oregon.

17:43

So we weren't even in Texas at the time That's easy Yeah, so in God's timing is

17:49

Providence that That young man at the wedding that confronted me and was astonished at what

17:56

I had done Sean Morris He became my neighbor basically when we moved here and it's led to all sorts of Conflict yes like in that audio of Mark that neighbor there but also great opportunities to help people

18:15

Get out of this mess Want to add one more clarification on that When we finally did move here

18:22

We had been as a family talking about moving to Texas or Indiana So I was at a point in my life when we were gonna move here anyway somewhere in Texas so in a nutshell we were gonna move into Wells and then look to buy a house in Houston and make the

18:39

Wells house a rental house or a ministry house, but As we once we moved down here six months later we came in October of 2014 more and more people started needing help more and more people would show up either at our door or through a phone call and We just thought you know

18:57

We thought we were gonna go to Houston. Maybe maybe we should stay here and That was seven years ago.

19:05

And here we are Right Wow, that's incredible. And so just one thing also just want to clear up It was a comment from someone this morning on social media state stating that you are sort of that In fact, you're actually just controlled opposition from the

19:20

Church of Wells and they mentioned that You had tried to get on the City Council and you're bringing other

19:27

Members of the Church of Wells to be on would you mind? Did you want to dress that real quickly because I know there's some people that again

19:34

We want to do is just we want to give out what's accurate and this is part This has been your life for nearly a decade

19:41

So this is one of those gambles to in Proverbs where it says, you know when someone just makes a statement

19:46

They seem to be right until another one comes and cross -examines him, right? Would you mind would you go ahead just across cross -examine that claim for us?

19:55

Absolutely now I'll be honest with you. I understand why these crazy rumors exist

20:02

There's three views of who we are and why we're here. There's the cult view Church of Wells Their view is we hate

20:08

God We moved here to persecute them and we bought this house because it was right next door to their building

20:14

And of course, I just as I explained that's not even true that detail That's their storyline and then

20:22

The locals here in Wells and this is this is a rumor. We haven't really been able to shake to be honest

20:27

We deal with this Quite often even though we've lived here since 2014 There's many people that know us and know that these the idea that we are somehow

20:39

Associated with the Church of Wells as a as like a secret plant or or maybe we

20:46

Let me just explain what the they say a lot of there's quite a few people that say including law enforcement

20:52

I've actually seen it written down on police reports that we Joined the

20:57

Church of Wells or tried to join and they rejected us and then now there's this conflict and you know I post

21:02

YouTube videos because I'm mad or something right? And so so, you know, I have a large family

21:08

We have nine children. We do homeschool So a lot of the locals here in East Texas right here in Wells.

21:14

It's kind of like it's a small community we love our community and You know, I don't want to talk bad about the community here at all

21:20

But there's been so many people that just look at us because we are outsiders from Oregon We don't talk like them we don't look like them that surely the only reason we could have moved here is to join this cult and so We deal with we deal with both sides.

21:36

We got the Church of Wells we're dealing with and it's been honestly a little difficult to deal with this this rumor that we are not who we say we are and I did run for City Council.

21:50

I was on it for a couple of years I'm no longer on City Council, but I mean those those allegations on your

21:58

Facebook Post that people have posted obviously that they're just false Yeah.

22:04

Yeah, and they're because they're because of ignorance the people that think those things I mean, I For the record you can call me you can email me you can knock on my door

22:14

I'll talk to anyone at any time almost and I have nothing to hide. So I Appreciate you trying to clarify that a little bit.

22:21

That's that's good, man I want to I want to go back to something real quick to you said there was someone the first person that the

22:26

Lord had helped you guys your family to get out of the Church of Wells was someone that was hiding in a forest like Or in the woods.

22:36

So what does it take for somebody to leave what they have to enter a church?

22:42

Where they're not from and then get so terrified right that they leave there to go to the woods

22:49

Like was there anything that he talked to you about or practices that were going on that led him to escape like literally flee from this church

22:59

Absolutely, and it's a mental thing. It's it's it's mental. It's It's spiritual.

23:05

It's a it's abusive. It's like any other spiritually abusive group just in My experience this is up a couple of notches this is bad stuff

23:14

This isn't just a controlling pastor. This is severe psychological Manipulation, so I'm still friends with this this man to this day.

23:24

I mean he still stays he still lives in the area And so we've talked a lot about this. We've had a lot of experiences with them even since that day and There's man.

23:36

There's so much. I mean he was one of the He was one of the people that stayed in a shed.

23:42

There's been a lot a lot of talk about sheds Well, he he was in the shed now. He wasn't

23:47

I don't think he was Fasting or anything necessarily, but he was in there, and he was trying to get saved and you know he talked a lot about the

23:58

Dichotomy of two different words from the Lord in other words someone would say

24:06

The Lord is saying you cannot get saved and just preaching that over and over you cannot get saved

24:12

God has to do it like it's just gonna have to happen from God And then another person would come up a few hours later and say

24:21

You know you just need to believe you just need to believe and he said he felt like he was gonna go crazy

24:26

Literally crazy Wow and he said he woke up one day thinking God's not bipolar, but I sure feel like I'm getting that way

24:34

Just said I got to get out of here. It's just such an abusive oppressive Environment and so he would have he had a little spot in the woods

24:42

He would hide he didn't sleep out there, but he he had to get away from their abusive preaching and aggressiveness and It's not always aggressive.

24:52

I guess I should clarify that too sometimes. It's very Passive and and just very controlling and manipulative sounds manic.

24:59

Yeah Yeah flip -flops the other yeah, so what would yeah, just real quickly What would be some examples then you move down there and and you were kind of brought into some circumstances of?

25:12

People who wanted to get out and as we played at the very beginning of the video Beginning at the video at the very beginning of the podcast of that confrontation

25:22

What were some things that led up to? That and there's other videos on your

25:27

YouTube channel that you've shared with different members of the Church of Wales people like most of Moses David Sean Morris and other people that if you if you follow the

25:35

Conversation regarding Wells whether it's on social media or other media outlets. You'll kind of hear those names

25:41

What were some examples of the conflict that started? Just with what you're doing and being out there once you move down there on top of what you just mentioned

25:50

Well, it was it was interesting So we didn't tell anyone That we were moving here.

25:57

We did get a call from our friend Michelle the one that had been married off In 2013

26:05

Somehow she found out about it like an hour from Wells We were almost there and she called us and said oh you're moving here and other than that You know we just showed up moved into our house and It was it was it was different from day to day so The first week or so people most people looked scared of us

26:26

I tried to meet a few people as I bumped into him and they would literally look like I was

26:33

Going to hurt them and they would just They wouldn't even talk to me. They wouldn't shake my hand. They just looked afraid scared to death

26:39

But then something very interesting happened One day and I mean one day in one moment of time

26:47

Everything changed and this was only a few weeks after we'd moved into our home They were waving to us from across the field.

26:55

Hey Meyer family. Hey, I mean yelling across the field waving at us I had a guy drive up As I was walking roll his window down from the

27:05

Church of Wells say Matt. We've got sodas for you does your family need something to drink and I found out later from someone who left the group that a text message had gone out and Sean Morris had told everyone

27:16

To stop, you know shunning us and to start quote -unquote showing us love

27:22

So the scary part is that in a group of about a hundred people everybody listened

27:28

Wow This is something to you that I want to I want you to talk about to Matt so all this isn't going on in a vacuum like you just stated like literally these people are getting their their information on How to treat people and other people from somebody in this case

27:43

It's coming from who they hold in authority like the lay person in the congregation who they hold in authority are the elders

27:49

Can you talk about some of the elders? We've heard the name Sean Morris. Can you talk about him? Can you talk about Jake Gardner and Ryan Ringgold how they met each other and in their background on how they formed the

28:00

Church of Wells real quick. Yeah, where did the Church of Wells come from? And I'm curious to were they Were they sent out by someone else or I know that I know they're all very young men when this started

28:11

Did they self -appoint themselves or how did it start? Yeah, and if I can follow up before I forget one thought on the car

28:18

Yeah, I just I just want to back up one second and say they started being kind to us But very quickly the conflict started when they would start coming on our property and trying to quote -unquote

28:28

Evangelize with us and they wouldn't listen when we said we're busy or we don't want you here.

28:35

It's the lack of boundaries it's the constant pressure and Really the lack of boundaries that started causing some serious issues where we had to call the police

28:44

We had to set up some boundaries here and say this just isn't happening You know, you're not gonna come over to our house and do this.

28:51

So That's where a lot of the conflict started as far as Where these guys come from I would recommend to anybody that has time to search just Google for Sonia Smith from Texas Monthly wrote

29:06

Several great articles. She has one called the early years where she goes through their history These guys go way back to Waco They met in college

29:16

Baylor University they Eventually were in Arlington is where I would say the

29:23

Church of Wells really started and on their website. They say 2010 so they would agree that 2010 is where they really started to form in Arlington as a bunch of young college students and Then they moved to Wells.

29:38

I think it was 2011 possibly 2011 But what

29:45

I want to point out about these three elders is something that I don't know if a lot of people know this Sean Morris He he met these guys early on and he

29:59

He was in the Texas Monthly article Sonia talks about this

30:04

He was dating a girl named Kasha and he says God told him that he was gonna marry

30:11

Kasha well, she according to the the story her interview that she gave he became very controlling and cultish really and She she dumped him, you know, she broke up with him and Sean I've heard a sermon

30:28

Sean preached where he describes this event and he was totally heartbroken and he says he had recently met

30:33

Ryan Ringnold Jake Gardner and he describes how basically he hung on their necks weeping and in tears that this woman had had dumped him and So it's sort of interesting if you look at that perspective a young college student by many accounts controlling and down the wrong path already finds these other two young men that are very zealous and He has this this girlfriend that breaks up with him.

31:04

It's a very emotional devastating moment in his life and these three kind of coalesce and you know from there there's there's a lot of things involved how it all formed, but He Sean actually says that the issue of this girl breaking up with him

31:24

Caused him to Study the issue of God changing his mind he this is this gets into some of the theology we might get into later, but If God told you

31:40

Who you were going to marry and then it didn't happen You're left with a choice. Did I hear

31:46

God? Sean had a better idea God changed his mind and that is the basis for their theology

31:53

God can change his mind about your salvation Wow That's hard Wow and and everything else the gospel anything

32:02

He can change his mind and Sean as the self -proclaimed prophet and mouthpiece of God It now becomes the arbitrator of truth because and he can you know, he can say well

32:13

God changed his mind on that so what Sean Morris then be the lead elder or sort of the leader primary leader of the group and then

32:22

The other two would just sort of be the the second -in -command in a sense Yeah, absolutely.

32:28

I think everybody knows that's close to this situation that the buck stops with Sean You know, they've put

32:35

Ryan under quote -unquote church discipline before Jake has a little more authority, but but I believe from everything we've experienced and everything we know

32:49

Sean Sean's the he's the leader of this group. No question He tries to play off as just one of the pastors.

32:57

I've heard him say it I'm just a pastor of a little church in East Texas. Yeah, that's that couldn't couldn't be further from the truth he believes he was chosen for this moment in time to call out the back he calls it the backslidden remnant and Call them to repentance so that they can be saved and he has been this has been revealed to him by God in person in a supernatural meeting in 2006

33:21

So is it safe to say then that Sean Morris Jake Gardner and Ryan ring ring old? They were not part of a local church body

33:29

Who saw that they had you know an internal call to be elders who then? Externally validated that and sent them to go plant a church that that wasn't the case whatsoever

33:39

These are three almost like Lone Rangers in a sense that gathered together Yeah, they had some initial support back in 2010 2009 2007 maybe eight

33:51

You can do a little Google search. You might still find their web page archives they were known as the

33:58

Texas boys and they were known as a group of very zealous from what from the

34:05

Descriptions I've heard seemingly godly God fearing young men we do know that Satan's fall is pride and I think the scripture that talks about being puffed up with pride as a young convert and falling into the same

34:19

Condemnation as the devil is true here. Yeah So no, they were not sent out. They have systematically over the last decade rebuked and Cut off every spiritual authority they've had in their life.

34:32

They they are it and It's no different than any other cult. They have the truth every other pastor

34:41

Theologian Christian is is wrong, right? and that's one thing I want to get clarity on and just because That's what happens many a times in different cults is that they believe they have a special Secret either hidden knowledge.

34:56

That's a private revelation or they have a special ability or lens in which to interpret the

35:01

Bible That's above anyone else. They can see things that have never been seen in 2 ,000 years of church history.

35:07

That's always a Red flag when you hear language like that And we're this series is also going to be a hopefully be a primer for anyone who's listening

35:17

Because I think church little churches like Wells are there they are a diamond dozen and in many ways the behavioral

35:24

Characteristics that you're talking about are really indicative of as a whole of things that you will see

35:30

But what would be an example like how do they view? Private revelation would they say that they wouldn't would they say that they're the only true church in the face of the earth or How do they?

35:42

How would they articulate? their them stating Them being above everyone else in that regard

35:51

Well, that's a great question and many people including myself have asked them Are you the only church and they they're very coy about it

36:01

Sean and Jake and Ryan? They're very smart young men. They're college -educated. They don't want to sound like a cult.

36:06

So they'll say No, we're not saying we are but we haven't found them yet Effectively, yes, they believe they're the only church.

36:14

There's actually a quote from Sean that says Something about the wrath of God That they're that they're like a brand plucked from the burning

36:24

They're the only ones they know of that have escaped the wrath of God on earth Yeah, so, you know you could play that game all day long

36:30

There might be someone up in who knows where but we haven't met him. No, they they believe they're basically the pillar and foundation of the truth, that's

36:40

That's there's no question there Yeah, that sounds very very much almost like a politician's answer of how how they would answer that for sure

36:48

It does definitely and so I think this would this is what might be good to delve into Because if I can be frank what we also want to do on the show is that we want to make the charge and allegation that we are that they are a cult and they are destructive cult and this is from our

37:05

Looking into them even the last two years and we're gonna do that by one being biblical you talk about independent lines of testimony and witness and we're gonna do that under three different categories and one is going to be the site they would be the psychological and sociological aspects but then primarily we'll deal with in the third episode the theological aspects because even the psychological and the sociological manipulation comes from the theological manipulation and so when you look at people who are experts that I have a tremendous amount of respect for people like Rick Allen Ross that you'll see and a lot of different specials and Documentaries and whenever there's something that goes on the news

37:49

Groups like CNN or Fox News or news outlets will usually either either go to him or they'll go to someone like Steve Hassan and Steven will have for example his bite model that behavior control information control thought control and emotional control

38:04

So could we just maybe we can kind of delve into that? What would be some examples of how they articulate in regards to and there's cult characteristics that we'll jump into Can you give some examples off -the -fly of just some psychological and sociological ways in Which they would go under the category of as a cult like how would someone like Rick Allen Ross or Steve Hassan?

38:26

What are behavior characteristics that you think they would identify within the Church of Wells? Well, I think the first one that comes to mind that is that most parents would understand if they've lost a child to this this cult is

38:42

The isolation now they've Church of Wells has And cults do this a lot of times.

38:49

They'll They'll morph a little bit and they'll change their ways. They're a little different now, but back 2011 12 13 14 15 up until recently it was very dramatic where they would talk to a potential recruit

39:06

The recruit would just disappear in the middle of the night and flee quote -unquote, you know flee for their life is how they felt they were

39:14

Acting and there'd be a lot of deception involved and and then there would be immediate isolation.

39:20

No phone calls Very very few phone calls for many months or even years the isolation of members and we know from studying

39:31

You know how these groups work and indoctrinate people that's a very important aspect if you're going to fully indoctrinate someone in and coerce them and get them into your your framework as a as a religious group

39:45

That's one characteristic of a cult for sure and we've seen that over and over and over again

39:50

That's not hard to find evidence of that And we even see that today as a neighbor

39:58

The Church of Wells tries really hard very very hard to keep people away from us that come down here

40:04

They've put criminal trespass warnings on us on several of their properties They threatened to put us in jail if we you know, step across the line, which that's their legal, right?

40:14

but even on public property, we'll be talking to a new person that clearly is a recruit that showed up in Wells and They'll drive up or walk up and cause interference and basically say this is an evil false prophet

40:28

Stay away, and they'll make sure this person gets gets away from us and doesn't get a chance to communicate with us.

40:35

Hmm Okay, and then I'll just give an example to you and then Andrew I'll let you jump on the next one

40:40

And we're get there's a we'll share this too. We share a couple times on our social media These are categories of psychological and sociological manipulation that you will see within cults, so One of them would be here's just one example

40:55

Rapid -fire teaching techniques that do not allow members to think critically about what is being said

41:01

Coupled with an environment where an open discussion of relevant issues and expression of contrary opinions is discouraged

41:07

So for anyone who's who they initially go to Wells, they're allured to Wells Could you give some examples about how that characteristic would be articulated or manifested within the

41:19

Church of Wells Yeah, you talk about rapid -fire. I mean if you've ever

41:25

I'm assuming you haven't talked to any of these guys but I mean They'll they'll rapid -fire like a machine -gun

41:30

Bible verse is unrelated and a lot of these guys know that the scriptures well And they'll flip from New Testament to Old Testament Matthew to Luke to you know

41:38

You know what any book in there is F and I and They'll pull these obscure verses out and they'll just overwhelm you and there's they've done this with me

41:48

But but I of course not Wanting to be these are just in discussions and and with them as a neighbor.

41:56

I'm not wanting to join them So when someone's an actual recruit that is wanting to you know, find

42:02

Cleansing from their sins and they think this group is gonna help them They might be in a room for a week with different members coming in just hammering them over and over with no sleep maybe small amounts of food because they're on a fast and psychologically, they will break people down to the point that they just just fold and That's that's very common.

42:26

We know many people that have gone through that process and heard their stories Yeah, it seems like in a way to make someone isolate themselves from their family or from the world

42:35

It seems like in order to indoctrinate someone a rapid -fire teaching technique would be you know a great example because especially in terms of the the

42:45

Church of Wells in the in the fact that In their doctrine in in terms of your an eternal security of your salvation

42:51

It's it's in the hands of your elders, right and it's according to what they would say is profane

42:57

Of course quoting from the Word of God, but the but the utmost authority relies on the three elders so naturally

43:06

Through hearing the the different Bible verses that are being spouted out out of context randomly in Conversations you can see that these are what are used to make people want to separate themselves

43:19

From everybody else. So the isolation is not only just this physical one Like you said some people were placed in these sheds like your friend that you still know that that happened to him but also there's a psychological isolation that occurs when someone

43:34

Literally believes their salvation is on the line for you know being part of The world like being in the world in a sense not

43:44

You know doing what the world does and approving of wicked practices But actually just being involved and I think that's a very very scary

43:54

Type of thing. It's like like their their prior identity Is replaced with a cult -like mindset and there's no freedom in Christ, right?

44:03

There's no freedom in Christ identity, but a new identity, which is actually one of their cult leaders.

44:09

Is that something you see? Without question I chuckle just because in my head

44:14

I'm hearing six different people's voices and they all sound like Sean Morris. Wow, there's actual physiological man, you know manifestations of this this this

44:25

Abusive the abusive rapid -fire The the whole indoctrination process or brainwashing if you want to call it that I've seen it happen.

44:35

We've seen people come down here fresh and new and Seemingly having happiness and joy in their face and a week later

44:43

Their their voice has changed They're they're disheveled. They look like They just got run over by a garbage truck.

44:51

You know, it's like what just happened to you and Whereas they might have smiled and waved at us. They now they're they're clearly in the system and there's there's a whole system that Sean and his his guys his elders have made where New recruits will be seen around town for sometimes weeks and weeks wearing headphones

45:13

Being indoctrinated pacing the streets and they're not listening to the scriptures. They're listening to Sean Morris's teachings

45:21

So there's a whole audio List like a playlist they use to to indoctrinate people.

45:28

So it's it's 24 -7 They're walking around with headphones on there They're they're breathing this thing or living this thing all in an effort to be cleansed from their sins and make it to heaven

45:39

So you you would almost see these new converts or people in the process of Determining whether or not they're really saved and it's up to the elders to determine when that actually is

45:52

When they're walking around wearing these headphones You can sort of see in their faces this

45:58

What's kind of almost like an outward expression what's going on internally as far as the indoctrination goes

46:05

Absolutely. There's a process and we see them change And and there's actually some physical manifestations that are that if you study this people that study psychological responses to intense certain intense practices like this

46:24

There's I twitching there's head twitching I've seen people I had to call a young man's father

46:32

Because This this Churchill Wells member was on the back porch one day across from my property and I saw him and he did not look well, and his eyes were twitching back and forth and I had to call his dad.

46:44

I thought man, there's something's wrong with this kid. So there's all sorts of things we see and It's it's very it's kind of scary to be honest that you can be manipulated to the point that your whole demeanor changes and and then

47:00

You know family members can attest to this ask anyone who's lost a family member to this group

47:07

They're a different person. They don't know there. They don't know their child anymore Yeah, and I've seen that I've seen that a couple of times and what we're gonna jump into that later on when we talk about Catherine Grove, one of the things

47:19

I just want to mention as well to just one characteristic Because we're getting towards the end of part one.

47:24

I feel like we've The surface I know it's crazy, but this is another characteristic

47:31

I think it's very important that we could just give one example of and again, we could definitely expound upon this is use of Deceptive recruitment techniques that include false information about the group's doctrinal beliefs or Cover -ups of Nate of a negative episode or periods in the group history

47:51

And so that I think that's very important. This is a typical cult characteristic. This is just done Universally even by cult experts who aren't even don't adhere to a

48:00

Christian worldview even like Steve Hassan so Steve Hassan story is that he got recruited by the moonies back in the 70s and we've talked about this and He was when he went to the retreat the moonies retreat he was not planning on changing his identity cutting off contact from his parents and and taking on this new identity for two years and He was told he was asked we went on this retreat.

48:26

Is this a religious experience or this attached to any particular religion? They directly said no

48:33

This is more in relation to just you know Justice and just kind of making a difference in the world every but that whatever the exact answer was it was

48:43

Yeah, it was a false flag. It was it was it was a lie And so that would be just one example, what would be some examples and was the

48:50

Church of Wells? they use Deception or bearing false witness when it comes to bringing in potential converts

48:59

I'm glad you brought that up because Deception I would say is the defining factor with a cult versus Let's say a normal church

49:12

There it's much. There's much many more factors you can bring up, but that that factor right there, you know

49:20

They're they're deceptive through and through you you can talk almost any issue there's deception and My father -in -law and mother -in -law my wife's parents live here in Wells also

49:31

And they moved down here a few years ago Just two weeks ago.

49:36

They were at the Cracker Barrel and a Church of Wells member actually happened to be Michelle's husband

49:43

Was there and they got in this conversation and he would not say he was with the Church of Wells Even though he was pressed what church do you go to he kind of pointed?

49:52

You know up the road down the road. They're very deceptive. They know that there's a negative

49:58

Publicity that they've earned and They they will do anything it takes because for them

50:06

There's another set of rules. They're God's people and they don't have to be forthright because their goal is is heaven

50:13

And they'll do what it takes. I Want to say about deception also or lying There's a website up to this day that they've made about me and my wife and it's full of lies

50:27

They I mean there's literally no integrity with this group and you could interview 20 people and They would tell you the same thing with facts.

50:36

I have four employees in my business All four of them have either been a member of the

50:44

Church of Wells or worked up at their sawmill custom -cut lumber that's the Church of Wells sawmill and Everyone can attest these guys are dishonest and it's a red flag and it should be a red flag to anyone

50:56

If they see an aversion to forthrightness and saying we're with the Church of Wells and here's what we believe

51:03

They're very secretive and that's common with all groups like this all cults Man, it really worries me especially in the terms of where you said there there are people walking around You know with headphones on and they're not listening to you know with the

51:17

Word of God But the words of Sean Morris it almost makes me think like by what authority in terms of what makes something a cult

51:24

It's well by whose authority does your church exist, right? and if Sean claims that almost an apostolic power, which you can read some quotes from his sermon titled wrath

51:37

What is it right here wrath thwarted and prophecy fulfilled where he almost in his five days of fasting?

51:45

I believe is what it is when he has a vision. I think there's like seven different visions He talks about where he has this amount of transfiguration experience

51:52

Where he reckons the power that he felt within him when God called him to preach the same as the Apostles number one

51:58

There's almost an apostolic claim to authority right, therefore you listen to Sean Morris's words and In terms of another quote from Sean Morris, we can read it right here

52:10

I want to read the one that you quoted from earlier It says this is from Sean Morrison. I believe it's the same sermon

52:15

He says I believe that's one of the reasons that God has raised me up to preach I believe that's why he told me at the amount of transfiguration

52:22

Where he called me to preach where I saw him exalted in his glory at the same hour. He told me that he said that Kousha, however, that was pronounced was to be my wife because he was going to take me through You know this experience to cause me to learn his truth one.

52:35

I'm gonna there's two points. I want to make number one Deuteronomy 18 states if there is one false prophecy if If someone was to claim to speak in the name of Yahweh and that thing does not come to pass that person is a false prophet

52:50

Right numbers 23 19 God is not a man that he should change his mind or God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man

52:56

That he should change his mind I'm gonna say your authority based on this revelation not coming true.

53:02

Sean. You don't have the authority and What people are listening to in their headset?

53:09

if it's the words your words and it's not the words of Christ we can see as You stated earlier that these people take on an identity of you

53:18

Sean Right. They don't have an identity in Christ and actually they're losing who they truly are

53:24

The Bible says let the words of Christ dwell within you reach richly Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs with Thanksgiving in our hearts

53:34

Towards God is that happening? Where's the Thanksgiving, you know in that? Yeah, and it really really worries me and that's that's a scary thing

53:43

What Jesus does is the opposite right we can freely through his blood through his sacrifice on the cross for our sins

53:49

We can actually be free to truly be who we were created to be in our

53:55

Individualistic personality given to us from God, right? Amen to actually

54:01

What is the word walk with Christ and be more like him which in terms?

54:07

Allows us to be how God created us to be Originally in the garden in fellowship with him in respect to our individual personality

54:17

Which is such a beauty in common grace from God and it's being utterly destroyed here in the

54:22

Church of Wells and that scares me It is it's that's one of the most devastating things to watch and to experience our friend

54:30

Michelle. She's still here She lives right down the street from us. She is a shell of Who she was she's she's hollow.

54:39

She's She's she's depressed. She's clearly there's no joy and it's it's it's very sad to watch this and to see people's personalities be totally destroyed and their freedom in Christ destroyed and their conscience destroyed so that It strips it strips all of that away from a person.

55:01

So their conscience becomes enslaved to the whims of their leader, which is in this case is

55:08

Sean Morris and his his henchmen that he has put up around him and Christ if Christ is in you, you know, you see in the scriptures a variety of personalities and and and people just in the

55:24

Apostles and the the bad thing here is that Sean has convinced everyone and I've heard it said he said this the reason everyone has the same

55:37

I guess you'd say personality is because he doesn't believe in personalities. He's he's teaches that they that's

55:43

Christ's personality So if everyone is the same and talks the same and has the same demeanor

55:50

He's telling his followers. That's Christ. Yeah, really as we're describing it It's Sean and they're they're literally taking on Sean's demeanor.

55:58

They don't even realize it's completely devastating to a person's life Yeah, and I'll say two things in regards to that as we walk up here

56:04

I mean if any of you just don't take our word for it go the Church of Wells They have their own YouTube channel watch watch them as in any of their videos as they respond

56:13

Listen, just how they articulate their words and their dialect. I mean, we're all sitting here having a conversation

56:20

We're all brothers in the Lord, but we are all distinct from each other I'm originally from California and I live in Arizona Andrew.

56:27

Where are you originally from? Las Vegas, Nevada? Really yeah, okay. And so, you know, we all we all have a background.

56:34

So we're all our own unique individual cells with our own cultures and backgrounds and you're you know,

56:40

You are from Oregon a major way down to Texas. And so we're all different and we're speaking different But what if you notice when you look at their

56:48

YouTube channel, they just are their dialect and how they articulate their words it's virtually identical yeah, whether it's in a sermon or whether they're doing a

57:00

Baptism or and just in there them looking at you and that's one of the things I noticed too I remember when

57:05

I first watched that video I came across that video. They play at the beginning of the episode That's the first video

57:10

I saw online two years ago, which led me to get a hold of you But I remember looking at him

57:17

Individual talking and then but also his wife and just how lifeless she looked

57:23

It made my hair stand on end if you think of the scene in signs And this now they get infamous gift when walking

57:30

Phoenix, you know Reacts to in horror when you sit at the birthday party scene I mean that was literally me watching that video but in seriousness one of the reasons

57:39

I think why is that when you look at? What the Bible the Bible speaks so highly of women it does so incredibly

57:46

I mean that you talk about just the value and worth that God gives women all throughout the

57:51

Old New Testament and Really when it talks about this gentle and quiet spirit of what the characteristics of a godly woman is and it's just something that you

58:01

See in their countenance. I see it in your wife Andrew. Shout out to Casey. Oh, wow Praise God and and shout out to your wife

58:08

Matt as well, too But you you see that individually and just the fact that that woman looks so lifeless

58:15

It just it really shook me to my core I mean a picture is worth a thousand words in that case

58:20

The image just spoke so much to me in regards to that. Wow, that's beautiful Yeah, and and women that have left this group

58:28

There's been several that have had to escape and it's it's almost always an escape and the real thing

58:34

You know tires squealing people running out the door hiding it, you know in the cover of darkness whatever it is, but several women have left over the years and they can attest to the oppression and the

58:47

Just the darkness that was upon them from being in this group and being

58:54

Convinced wrongly convinced that this was the the truth and it's a long recovery, you know, it's a very long recovery many people

59:03

I've talked to a lot of people that have been in cults not just the Church of Wells, but other groups Throughout years in their life and it affects you

59:11

Spiritually and your view of God can be damaged for quite some time until God heals you and brings healing

59:17

Until you can see God's love once again. He's not a God of wrath in Christ in Christ You know, he sees us as righteous.

59:26

Our sins are blotted out. We're not always trying to look inward and You know, hope we don't have some tiny little hidden sin that's gonna send us to hell

59:35

And so it's a beautiful thing to see people get healing and their faith to be restored but it's

59:42

You know, it's it's very damaging For the time they're in it and it's it's sad to watch.

59:48

We do have hope that you know God's always working and Looking back on how we ended up even moving here is encouraging to us that we've been able to help

59:58

At least a dozen people get out of this mess and in different ways and we're thankful for that.

01:00:04

Praise God Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the things we'll do is as we wrap up here and so the next podcast

01:00:10

I want to make sure as we are Making these allegations of labeling them a cult we gave several examples and we could do a whole nother episode of just the two different categories psychologically and sociologically

01:00:20

The next episode we're going to go into a little bit more of their theology But what I do want to do because I want to make sure that we are fair that we do not misrepresent them because we were hesitant initially to even talk about the

01:00:33

Church of Wales just because a lot of What was out there was Was a lot of hype misinformation hearsay

01:00:41

Yeah And even the podcasts that I listened to a lot of them were even contradicting each other in regards to what was really going on at Wells what's the truth about Catherine Grove?

01:00:52

And what it would actually happen with her in fact honor on our image We actually have a picture of some of the elders in Catherine Grove.

01:00:58

So we'll talk about the next episode Also, we want to make sure we give some clarity Matt when we go into part two a couple years ago

01:01:05

There was a special done on the Church of Wales by. Dr. Phil and We want to clear it and but there was

01:01:13

Misinformation. So again, we want to it's a see this is a serious dangerous and destructive cult

01:01:18

But just because a cult is dangerous and destructive and is harming other people Does not give anyone a precedent to bear fault when it falls to witness about them

01:01:27

Amen, so in many ways we need to have hashtag equal weights and measures for all and that's a very important thing

01:01:33

So we will delve that into all that in the next episode. So hang in there everyone We all have to you'll have to wait a week for part two

01:01:40

But we will talk to you then and so if you guys enjoyed this first episode Talk with Matt Meyer who lives next door to the

01:01:47

Church of Wells and Wells, Texas If you like that just go ahead and share this episode comment on our social media

01:01:53

Let us know what you thought about the first episode Let us know what questions you have and we love to hear your feedback.