Should Christians Welcome Transvestites into Their Worship Services?

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01:26

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, should churches welcome transvestites in the church service?

01:41

So Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us? Deuteronomy 22 .5

01:48

says that a woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the

01:56

Lord your God. That's a, you know, as you're reading that verse, I have a few thoughts.

02:04

I have a few different thoughts. It's number one, and this is sort of like a off -topic comment, but it's really funny to me that you can have a

02:12

Bible verse like that, and people, you know, people will say, hey, you know, we're just not very clear on what that means.

02:21

You know, that's just not a clear Bible. You're taking that out of context, you know. Like that, let's be real.

02:28

That verse is pretty straightforward, you know. No one's ever looking at, you know, love your

02:35

God and love your neighbor as yourself and saying, hey, we're just not sure what that verse means, you know.

02:41

Yeah, so instantaneously with that kind of thing, what they'll do is they'll try to, you know, basically make it fuzzy, and I've learned that, like, if you're talking to someone who's trying to make a verse fuzzy, like,

02:52

I really have no patience or no interest to listen to, you know, almost anything you say at that point, you know, related to this topic unless you can tell me, like, what this verse means, and so that's just kind of a pro tip that I've just, like,

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I've trained myself to ignore people who are going to try to deconstruct Bible verses, and even conservative -minded

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Christians can do this, particularly as it relates to things like this, and so, like, instantaneously they'll, you know, they'll say, you know, how do you even define a woman's garment?

03:19

How do you even define a man's garment? Or whatever else, right? Right. And so there's some subjectivity to that.

03:24

Men used to wear robes, and so, you know, who's to say what's what as far as those things are concerned, but as you're talking about transvestites, like, there's no lack of clarity whatsoever, you know, as we're talking about this kind of topic.

03:38

Like, a transvestite is intentionally and knowingly dressing the exact opposite, you know, as what society would expect them to dress, you know, as a member of their biological sex, dressing the exact opposite of that.

03:53

And, you know, my second thought with this verse as you're reading that is it's so funny that our society, well,

04:01

I guess, you know, it's not really necessarily funny. It's tragic in a lot of ways. But, you know, this idea that, you know, men who are taking and wearing women's clothes, and, you know, the same with women wearing men's clothes, it's seen as something that, you know, by many people in the current society that we live in, they demand that it be celebrated, right?

04:28

Like, it's almost like a virtuous, you know, it's not even like a morally neutral thing.

04:34

It's like a morally good thing that they're doing. But then the Bible, you know, is being very clear and honestly almost comically concise with, you know, how resolute

04:46

God is in condemning it. And not only is He condemning it, but He's basically taking this idea that a man who wears a woman's clothes is one of the absolute worst things that you could ever possibly do.

05:02

It's not even just a bad thing. It's like one of the worst things you could do. Yeah, I mean, it's called an abomination, essentially.

05:08

And, you know, we're mercilessly trained to view this as normal.

05:14

So much so to where, you know, you have like drag queen story hours that are happening where you have like a man dressed as a woman and not even just any kind of woman, right?

05:25

So like a drag queen story hour, it's not like a man dressed as like a respectable lady or something.

05:31

It's like you have a man dressed like a female prostitute, essentially. And you're parading that in front of kids in a way that, like if you just had like a female dressed like the man, most of these parents would be just like absolutely scandalized by that.

05:46

Right? Yeah. Like a thought of like a female, like if it was a female like, you know, prostitute, you know, making sexual provocative poses and all that in front of kids, everyone would run her out of there.

05:57

But then because it's a man doing it, we're supposed to one, pretend he's a woman and then pretend like it's normal. And so much so that,

06:03

I mean, you know, but the Bible is saying at that point that this is an abomination, essentially.

06:09

I guess, as you said, one of the worst things that can happen. In the same way, like, you know,

06:14

Leviticus 18 .22 says, you shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. And, you know, as you're reading through the

06:22

Old Testament, you're going to find that a lot of like, like some of the worst kind of practices, abominable practices that these nations are performing are described in this language of abomination.

06:32

And like, these are the practices that God will act in judgment on us as a society. So he's acting in judgment on, you know, the

06:39

Canaanites and the individuals in the promised land because they're committing these abominable practices. And he's saying that the land itself is vomiting up, vomiting them out of the land because of their iniquity, because of all the abominable practices that they're practicing.

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And he tells the Israelites, you shall not engage in these same abominable practices, the things that I destroyed these nations for doing.

06:59

And so this is one of those things. And, you know, because we're so like trained, like as a society to normalize it and to view it as normal, like we get desensitized to how bad this actually is, but then our kids know, right.

07:11

You know, my kids, when they see like, you know, a man dresses a woman or a woman dresses a man, they instantaneously feel very uncomfortable and very odd.

07:22

And like they, they will point at them and say, Hey, why are they doing that? And I don't even have an impulse to tell them to stop.

07:28

You know, I don't have an impulse to say, Oh, don't say it. I'm just like,

07:33

I don't know, man. Yeah, you're right. That's pretty weird. Yeah, you're right. That is weird.

07:39

You know, freaking me out. I don't have any, I don't have any effort to, I don't have some impulse to say, Oh, that's impolite.

07:45

It's like a kid knows that, like, you know, so our kids know this is strange. My kids are the same way.

07:50

They, you know, sometimes my oldest, my oldest daughter, she'll take her hair bows and stuff and, and put them in my beard and then laugh because she knows, because she knows that it's not, you know, it's not like what

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I would ever wear is weird. You know? And then she'll point and say, you know, daddy's wearing my bows.

08:12

You know, she, she, she's two. And she understands that there's a difference between the way, you know, that I dress in the way that her mom dress in the way that she dresses.

08:23

Well, my, my daughter, she was asking me if she could bring a toy to church today. So she's like for my daughter,

08:29

Vivian. And so she was asking me if you can bring a toy to church. And I always tell her, you know, you're not allowed to bring toys to church because I don't want her playing with the toys during the, you know, the service or whatever.

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And, and so I know that's going to be a temptation for her. So I just tell her, don't bring it in there because I don't want her playing with the toy during the church service.

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I don't want her to lose it and then get upset. And then, you know, most of the time they'll like if they do bring one there and they're not playing with it in church service, they start playing with it afterwards or something like that.

08:57

Like they'll leave it in the church. And by the time we get out to the van, then they're all be like, Oh, we want to get our toy or whatever. And so, but then she was asking me like, can

09:05

I bring this toy? And I was like, no, you can't. She's like, but dad, but dad, my best friend, her cousin,

09:11

Wilder, my best friend, I always played toys with him after church. And he only has boy toys.

09:21

And if I'm going to play with him, I don't want to play with his boy toys. And so I need to bring a girl toy. And I was like, okay, fair enough.

09:28

Just to put it, put it in mom's purse, put it in mom's purse, but I don't want you to, you know, do a children transvestite ism there.

09:40

Yeah. So, so our society, our society tries to obscure this and make it like a normalize it.

09:48

Right. And, and even like I was saying earlier, almost like a morally good thing to do, not, not just morally neutral.

09:55

You do, you do you, I'm going to do me, but like a morally good thing. But then the, yeah, the

10:01

Bible is saying the absolute opposite in every way, calling it an abomination.

10:07

Right. Which is, which is like the worst of the worst. Right. So, so clearly this is, this is like not a good thing to God to put it, to put it lightly.

10:20

This is not a good thing to God, but, but okay. The, you know, so I'm sure there's a lot of people who are listening to us who would probably agree with all of that stuff, you know, and, and would say, yes, you know, all of that's evil.

10:34

It's bad. We should tell people to stop doing it. We should not encourage it in any way. But when it comes to the question of, should you allow that kind of person in during your, your, your, your worship service you know, they might disagree with like they, you know,

10:57

I could see a lot of people saying no, but I could see a lot of this, a lot of similar people who agree in most things saying, yes, you should let them in, you know?

11:06

And so, so when it comes to that question, what is, what is your answer? Yeah. I think it's one of those questions that I guess, obviously a question you're not allowed to ask in certain ways.

11:18

And so what's happened is just you're, we're trained by society to view transvestites essentially through this, like a filter of like innocence essentially.

11:29

So like you, you know, you have obviously, this used to be considered like a mental disorder.

11:38

So this used to be considered like, like some sort of like brain quasi brain problem that an individual is suffering, right.

11:45

Like functionally they can't help. And, you know, they're suffering from gender dysphoria and all that. And a lot of people who comment on like this kind of question that we're asking, like essentially they're viewing them through this language of, they're suffering from like, you know, like there's like, there's like drag

12:00

Queens, right. On the one hand who are just out there for attention and all that. And like, they know what they're doing.

12:05

And then you have like the real, like the real like people with gender dysphoria kind of thing.

12:10

And so in their mind, there's like a category of, you know, just a person who is doing this thing.

12:17

The Bible describes as an abomination, but they're doing it because they have some sort of broken brain or something like that. And so in that way, they're viewed as a victim.

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And then you have all like the victim rules. Like you can't shame the victim. You can't blame the victim. You can't hold the victim accountable.

12:30

You have to be patient with the victim. So you have that kind of reaction that people have to that kind of question. And then you have also like, like you're trained to view them as like victim classes in general as society.

12:42

So like as a society, we're all trained to view all these sexual deviant things, all these things that God describes as abominations.

12:50

We're trained to view them through the language of victimization. And even if we push back against that in certain ways, like these kinds of questions will expose that.

12:58

That's where we're still at emotionally. You're still trained to view them as kind of like a victim. And so you have to give them a pass on that.

13:05

And then like you also have like feeding into this question, like the whole seeker sensitive kind of approach to church anyways.

13:13

Right. So like church is fundamentally first and foremost for the nonbeliever to come.

13:19

And then like if you add like an Arminian filter on that, then like this is their chance to hear the gospel.

13:26

Right. Right. So this is their chance to hear the gospel. So the service is for unbelief, primarily for unbelievers to come in order to hear the gospel.

13:35

And this is maybe the only chance they ever have in order to hear the gospel. And so you don't want to do anything to stand in the way of them having their chance to hear the gospel, because that may be the only chance they get.

13:47

OK. Now, if you're asking, well, how do you answer a question like this? Well, before I answer it, let's just like consider other scenarios.

13:54

OK. OK. So like you have a KKK, you have a Klansman come in with his hood and full

14:02

Klan garb. Do you let him in? Do you let him in your service?

14:10

I think that's probably the gospel that he wants to hear the gospel. I think that's probably a bad idea.

14:19

OK, so most people, I think like most people don't have an answer to this. I mean, I asked this on Twitter and no one actually really gave me a good answer to like this dilemma that I'm presented.

14:29

Right. And so, like, what about a nudist? Right. Nudist comes to your church.

14:36

Definitely not the nudist. For sure, not the nudist. You know, so when I say that, then some people have to ask, well, you know, are they clubbed?

14:43

No, I'm talking about a nudist. Like a nudist comes to your church. No, a faithful nudist. Not those fake poser nudists.

14:50

The real deal. Do you let them in? Like, you know, they've got some skin in the game, man.

14:58

But you think about it, like, think about that, like in both scenarios, like something just so everyone has a category for turning people away.

15:06

Right. What if a person came into your church service with a shirt on that says,

15:14

I hate Yahweh? I'm like, oh, that's probably, you know, like, hey, man, take the shirt off, put a different shirt on and come back.

15:30

Someone comes into your church with a shirt on that says we need to exterminate all

15:36

Christians. Change the shirt. And then, you know, we're going to have someone sit next to you.

15:45

What if they had like a profanity, like, you know, bleep God or something like that on the shirt?

15:53

Are you just trying to think of like every possible thing? I'm just trying to say, like,

15:58

I'm just trying to establish a point here that like, okay, like, there are people like whatever you wear,

16:07

I guess, sending certain messages. Right? Right. So, like, there's a lot of different hypothetical messages that I came up with, most of which were on the fly.

16:19

But I mean, like, there's some messages there that you say, hey, like, like in almost every one of those scenarios.

16:25

So, like the KKK, the nudist, right? The nudist, the KKK, the, you know,

16:31

I hate God. I want to kill Christians, like the, you know, all that. Right. Like there's certain messages that they're communicating.

16:40

And like immediately what you think in your mind is they have an agenda that they're bringing into this place, like into the service that's supposed to be about God.

16:51

Right? Right. So, you have an alternate agenda. Now, like, like in every single one of those things, then what you're like, what you in most of those things you're processing, maybe nothing like the nudist kind of scenario, but on all the other ones you're processing immediately.

17:07

Okay. There's some foreign agenda that's being brought into this place. Right. That, like, this is like a demand that this individual is performing to, like, they're not just coming like sincerely with a sincere heart to hear about God.

17:24

Right. Like, so instantaneously, what you know is, you know, that there's some other agenda they're bringing in that they're demanding you accept.

17:31

Right. Right. And so, like, instead of just coming to worship God, like this, like these are all moments where these individuals have a statement to make.

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And they're there to be the show. They're not there to bow their knee to God and allow God to be the center of attention.

17:45

They're trying to be the center of attention in every single one of those. And then with the nudist, I mean, like, you have very real, like, you have that kind of thing.

17:51

This is a statement that's being made. But then you also have, like, a concern for the safety of everyone around you.

17:57

Right. Kind of thing. Yeah. Like, this is the, like, Lord's house, this Lord's day. We need to be listening to the

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Lord. Like, like, we need to, like, this is a day about him. We come to worship him.

18:09

And you're a distraction to that. Right. Right. So, like, you're making, you're being a distraction to everyone else around you.

18:18

You're being a source of temptation to everyone around you. In the same way that, like, you know, the person wearing the KKK garb. Like, instantaneously, you know, like,

18:25

OK, you're wearing a KKK garb. Everyone's going to have trouble, like, focusing on you.

18:31

And are, you know, the, are, like, is everyone safe in this?

18:36

Are you going to, like, what are you doing? Are you coming here to start a war? You know, you have guns underneath your robe.

18:42

Like, what's going on? Right. And so, like, in every single, what I'm trying to say is, like, there are scenarios that people can imagine to where someone comes.

18:50

And instantaneously, you think to yourself, they're not coming, one, they're not coming in good faith. And then, two, they're coming as a demand.

18:57

Right. It's a demand and it's a distraction. And, you know, there might be a wide variety of situations that you could think of where, like, no, like, you're welcome to come.

19:09

But you're not welcome to come engaging in high -handed rebellion against the Lord in your very act of what you're doing.

19:16

Does that make sense? And so, like, you can think about the same thing. Like, let's say, like, you know, a same -sex couple walks in holding hands bravely.

19:24

Like, bravely holding hands as they walk into the, you know, I'm using brave in quotes there. But, like, same -sex couple, quote, unquote, couple, bravely, quote, unquote, holding hands as they come in.

19:36

They have an agenda. Like, you know, like, they have an agenda that they're bringing into this worship service that they're demanding you accept.

19:44

And so, like, you have to think about, like, what are we – how do we respond to things like that? And I think that's, like, whatever, like, you have to have some sort of category for saying, hey, you're not coming in good faith.

19:55

And you know what? You're not going to commit an abomination in our presence, right?

20:01

Like, and expect us to tolerate it. Right. So, but then what –

20:08

I mean, what's the difference? Surely, in your mind, there's some kind of difference between, you know, the transvestite person coming in or the gay, quote, unquote, couple coming in, you know, bravely, like you said.

20:24

What's the difference? You know, like, that's all sin, right? But then, you know, what's the difference between that and the person, you know, who is completely addicted to alcohol or watching porn, for example?

20:40

You know, so, like, are we supposed to say, hey, drunkard, come back when you've stopped being a drunkard, and then you can join the church?

20:52

Or what's your response? You know, because that's going to be pushed back. Yeah. I mean, you're talking about visitors, but then what we're doing is we're equivocating, essentially.

21:02

Okay. Okay. Okay. So, like, I mean, if you have the porn addict who's walking into your church service with an

21:07

LCD screen taped to his, like, shirt or whatever that is filled with porn, then you might say, hey, take that screen off.

21:19

Put it in the car. Throw it in the garbage can. I have a sledgehammer.

21:26

We can smash it. Right. Right. So, like, the issue is there's a sin being committed in the moment.

21:33

So you have sinners who have any number of sins. Sinners are welcome at church, right? Sinners are welcome to church, but then they're not, obviously, welcome indefinitely with no strings attached, meaning just come as you are, stay as you are, whatever.

21:48

But certainly, like, come to me, you know, you who are heavy laden and, you know, bow down with iniquity and I'll give you rest and all that.

21:57

So certainly, like, yes, like, you know, like a porn addict is welcome to come to church and maybe hear the gospel.

22:04

Maybe he'll repent. Maybe he'll repent. Sure. Right. So just some standard. But he's not welcome to come and to watch porn during the service.

22:13

Right. So if you see him sitting in the aisle watching porn, you escort him out.

22:19

Right. Do you see what I'm saying? In the same way, a drunk. Yeah. A drunk is welcome to come, but he's not welcome to come as a drunk.

22:27

Right. You can't come with your bottle being fully wasted. Okay. Yeah.

22:34

So, no, no. Like, just go clean up, get sober, come back. Okay. Right.

22:39

I mean, that doesn't mean you have to be perfect. It means, like, you're not going to, like, make a spectacle of yourself here by falling all over yourself.

22:48

Right. Like, breathing on people, doing weird things because you're out of your mind in the moment. Right. So if you're high, like, get on high, come back next time.

22:58

Get low and then come back. Right. So you can't just sit there and smoke weed in the service.

23:06

Right. You can't blaze up. Yeah, you can't. I mean, you can't do that. Like, and so, like, in the same way, like, if you're, like, so you're the gay couple, you're the gay couple, so to speak.

23:17

You can't come in here and flaunt that in front of everyone. Okay. You can't come in here holding your hands, you know, bravely flaunting that in front of everyone.

23:25

Like, now, like, if you're, like, one member of that couple, you come here and, like, we don't know that.

23:32

You're not flaunting that in front of everyone. Right. Right. That's fine. I mean, if you start hitting on people in our service, then we should call you out on it.

23:40

Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So, like, the same thing with, like, the transvestite, like, yeah,

23:47

I mean, you're not welcome to cross -dress in our service. Go put on something appropriate.

23:53

Just like the KKK member, he's not welcome to wear that outfit to church.

23:59

Like, he could come, like, he could come, like, as a just a normal outfit. And still be a racist.

24:06

And still be a racist. So, a racist can come to our church. Right. So, racists are welcome to our church. Sexually deviant people are welcome to attend.

24:13

Right. Like, they're welcome to attend. But you're not going to commit abominations in the presence of the assembly.

24:19

That's the point. I just know that someone's going to take a clip of you right there,

24:25

Tim, where it just says racists are welcome at our church. They're just going to isolate that by itself.

24:32

And say, see, I told you they're terrible people. They let racists in their church.

24:39

Okay. But, like, that's the whole. So, like, that's where. Okay. Like, that's a significant point you're making, though.

24:47

Like, that's a very significant feature of what the nature of this discussion.

24:54

Okay. Okay. So, think about that. Like, if I were to say a racist is welcome at our church,

25:01

I've just said something, like, horrible. Right? In the minds of many people.

25:08

Yeah. In the minds of some people, yeah. Yeah. All right. But in the minds of that same person, the same people that would be scandalized by that thought, if I were to say a cross -dresser is not welcome at our church, those same people would be scandalized by that thought.

25:24

Yeah, they would want to come flip all the tables. They would want to come flip all the tables. And what that tells you is, like, this discussion is not about principle that we're having.

25:33

Right. Like, it's not about, like, any kind of logical consistency. It's not about principle. It's not about, like, what does the

25:39

Bible say about this? Like, they have a total. Like, what they're trained to do is, like, they have a category of villain.

25:45

Right? So, like, you know, we know who the villains are. Pedophiles are the villain. Racists are the villain.

25:51

For now. For now. For now. For now. Pretty soon, they won't. But, like, so, like, you know, is a pedophile welcome to come to your church service?

26:02

Right? Yeah. Uh -huh. All right. So, how many big, famous pastors have gotten in trouble for, you know, marrying ex, you know, pedophiles?

26:12

Right? You know, so, like, here's the thing. Like, they have a category for excluding people.

26:18

Right. But the issue is – so, it's not that they don't have a category for excluding people. The issue is who is going to be excluded.

26:25

What classes of people must you include and show sympathy to? And what classes of people must you kick out?

26:31

Right? So, can Donald Trump come to your church? Yeah. Yeah, Donald Trump. He can come.

26:38

All right. Not to those people. Right? So, the people who would be scandalized by saying, hey, no, like, a cross -dresser should be, like, prohibited entrance into your church and told to get, like, respectable, like, to not commit an abomination in the assembly, those people wouldn't want

26:54

Trump in there. They wouldn't want racists in there. They have a list of people they wouldn't want in their church service. And so, we're not operating under principle.

27:00

We're just basically taking our cues from what society tells us to take. Right. Yes. It's not about – it's basically, like, they have an idea of, like, a protected class in society.

27:12

And you're violating their idea of what is a protected class. And so, when you say something like, hey, a person, a man who's dressed like a woman, and not even dressed like a normal woman, but dressed like a stripper woman, when you say, you're not allowed in our church when you look like that, essentially, they might as well be hearing you to say, like, hey, you're not allowed in our church because of the color of your skin.

27:41

Right, right. Or, like, hey, you're not allowed in our church because you look poor. Yeah. So, part of what's happening is, like, when you demand that people view these things as an identity that can't be helped, right, then you're discriminating against them as a person.

28:00

Right. But then those are the very things that are at contention here. So, like, it's not true that that KKK man was born that way.

28:10

I mean, I guess he was if you count, like, being born into sin. I'm looking for loopholes at this point.

28:19

But he wasn't born with that KKK outfit on. Right. Yeah. I mean, like, meaning,

28:25

I mean, his parents may have put it on him back then. Maybe it's like a

28:31

Mandalorian thing, he can't take it off, you know, or else it violates his religion. But, I mean, like, you think about how absurd of a thought that is.

28:40

Like, that's his permanent identity now that he's permanent. So, like, you have, like, special rules for this class of, like, sexual deviance, right, to where you have to treat them in a different way instead of just, like, being learned behavior.

28:51

Like, everyone's conceived in sin. Everyone's conceived in iniquity. But then, like, you have to create special rules.

28:57

Like, and so, like, this is who I am, man. Like, I am a KKK. Like, that's who I am. That's who

29:02

I am. I was born this way. I was born this way. As long as I can remember, I was a KKK person.

29:08

And, you know, like, I just, like, you know, from a very early age, like, you know,

29:14

I hated black people. I always knew.

29:20

I knew. I knew I was not like other boys, right? I always knew.

29:26

I always knew, you know, from an early age. So, that's absurd, man. Like, that's absurd. Like, no, like, that's stupid, you know?

29:33

And so, like, you say, hey, you know, like, no one who hates his brother is born of God. Like, no, you know, everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.

29:41

And no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Like, so, this is a behavior. Like, and you're not, you don't, like, you treat it like that.

29:48

You say, hey, you're not. Just because, like, you're internally pulled towards this hatred and you can't figure out how to stop this hatred, that isn't who you have to be, right?

29:57

Right. And you're not going to, you know, express that in, like, in our congregation.

30:03

So, like, that's not the way this works, right? So, like, so, like, the issue is on the other side of things, right?

30:10

With, with a crossdresser, you know, with a transvestite or whatever. Like, what we are, we have to, like, we're told we have to view this as some sort of permanent identity.

30:19

And then if we say, hey, you know, wear the right clothes, you're not going to commit an abomination here. Then instantaneously, people think, okay, well, man, you've just kind of rejected who they are.

30:29

It's like, yeah, that's exactly what I did. I rejected who you are, who you're choosing to be, right? You know, this is not like me picking on you for being mentally handicapped or something like that.

30:38

This is within your control. You can choose what kind of clothes you want to wear and which kind of clothes you're not going to wear.

30:44

And we're not going to validate your delusion, and you're not going to come in here and flex on us as a church and say,

30:49

I know that you're against this, but you're, you must accept me. It's like, no, we don't. We don't have to accept you. Yeah.

30:56

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I guess you could just make the argument like, hey, you know, look, so just thinking through the, thinking through the, um, the situation for a minute, you know, if you're, if you're the kind of, if you're a person, you're a man who thinks you're a woman and you dress that way normally, but then you think to yourself for whatever reason, go to, you know, the first church that I see this morning, you know,

31:27

I just, for some reason I really want to go. And it's not even like a, it's not like a,

31:33

Hey, so that I can domineer over them and demand that they accept me. It's just like a, Hey, you know, I have been feeling a little guilty lately.

31:40

Maybe I need to go and check out what this is all about. Right. You would, you would think in that kind of situation, the person would, the person would say, like,

31:50

I'm not going to dress how I normally dress right now. Sure. Right. Like if they were, if they were coming, if they were coming because they legitimately felt guilty for whatever reason they were coming because they wanted to say,

32:05

Hey, I just want to see what this is actually about and just see it for myself and not have other people describe it to me.

32:12

Um, I want to hear what the actual gospel is. I want to see what these people are like.

32:18

You would think that in that kind of situation, if you want to hear the genuine truth that you would say,

32:25

I'm going to respect these people enough to, even though I don't agree, like, I think it's totally fine to wear whatever

32:30

I want, however I want, whenever I want, you know, like, I don't agree with them. I am going to subject myself to their rules because I'm coming into their space.

32:43

Right. Sure. I mean, I, I think there's like different categories of people that you can think through here.

32:48

So, I mean, you have like that out, like you have the crazy drag queen kind of person, um, like the, or like you have drag queen on the extreme end of things to where they're dressing at prostitutes or something like that.

33:03

Um, you know, and shortly behind that you have like the Dylan Mulvaney kind of guy who's just dressing like overtly like feminine, like in your face, kind of feminine kind of thing.

33:12

Right. Yeah. And so then, I mean, I imagine that you, you know, maybe on the girl end of things, like if you had like a, um, like typically like you have like guy transvestites and girl transvestites essentially.

33:26

And then when the girls are doing it, they're more, a lot more toned down. Right. In general. Yeah. Like in terms of they're not, um, in your face, like trying to, it's normally just more tomboyish kind of thing in a lot of ways.

33:40

Yeah. So, so I think there's obviously some sort of spectrum that you're operating on when you're talking about these kinds of things, but like in the out and out, like, yeah,

33:47

I'm sure that like if a, if a prostitute were going to come to church, like you can imagine that like, she's not going to dress maybe in full prostitute mode.

33:56

You know what I'm saying? Like she may tone it down to be more respectful. She may not know what modesty is. Right.

34:01

Right. Yeah. But she'd at least tone it down some, you know, so in that kind of way. So like, you know, maybe there's some scenarios where like something like that could happen like in, in the sense of like, it wouldn't be just like, you know, full on drag queen story hour mode or something like that.

34:20

You know? And I would hope that at least with Christian's impulses, if you're in full on drag queen story hour mode, at least they would kick in at that point.

34:28

Right. Right. Yeah. Like bare minimum, at least have that standard. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

34:34

Now, I mean, like, I think if you're like dealing with someone like Ellen Page, Ellen Page, who's, you know, now gone through full gender reassignment surgery and dressing like Elliot and something like that, dressed up like an

34:48

Elliot, you know, kind of thing. It may be that they, there could be cases where they fly under the radar.

34:57

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You just don't even realize. Like you realize say something's off here, but how confident am

35:04

I that something's off? And I don't know, you know, so, and there's no way to verify it.

35:10

And so like in those kinds of cases where it's just like, like that kind of thing, like, I don't know that you can maybe respond to everything at the moment, you know, like in the sense of you just may not know.

35:21

And you may suspect it may be just like very obvious something's off here. Right.

35:27

So, I mean, I think in the cases where like, it is very obvious, I think that's where you have a conversation in the cases where like, there may be like rare cases where people are lying and, you know, just, what do you do?

35:37

I don't know. You don't know. You don't know what you're dealing with at that point. Does that make sense? Yeah.

35:43

Yeah. Like, like if we're being realistic, you know, there's just going to be times where things you don't, you know, either don't have enough time to address something or you don't realize what's happening until you're already in the middle of a service or something, you know, so it's, so it's not like a, there's like a trans, a transvestite scanner at the door, at the door, you know, that you're running everybody through.

36:10

I think when it's like the man, men, it's more obvious. Yeah. Yeah. It's typically more obvious.

36:15

And I think, you know, that's a good opportunity to address it. But then I think with the women, like there could be scenarios where maybe they fly under the radar kind of thing for a little bit.

36:26

But yeah, no, I mean, so I can imagine that I think, but then back to the substance of what you're saying, like, like what, like, like,

36:36

I guess the question, the operative question is, is this always like a flex basically? Right. Yeah. Like, is there any,

36:42

I would say most of the time it's probably a flex. Especially given in our current society.

36:48

I mean, it's not like people are completely unaware of Christianity. Yeah. So you would think like in most reasonable cases, like I think people know that the church is against this kind of thing.

36:59

And so that's going to be a deterrent for that. And so that means that if you're going to overcome that, this is a flex, right? Like most of the time, this is like a,

37:07

Hey, you know, what are you going to do now? And with threat of litigation, like if you turn me away,

37:13

I'm going to sue you. I'm going to ruin your life and that kind of thing. And at that point, I just think Christians just say, okay, do your worst.

37:19

Right. You're not holding this hijack. You're not holding this captive, like, like with threat of trying to ruin us, do, do what you're going to do.

37:27

You know, like we're, we're, we're, but I mean, like in some kind of hypothetical, you know, scenario where like, it doesn't dawn on the person that they need to like play by the rules.

37:40

Then like, and there is. So I would assume insincerity, like maybe there's some possible situation where there is some sort of sincerity.

37:49

I, I still like, I'm not a, I'm not an Arminian. What do you mean?

37:54

Meaning if God's at work at this person, God's at work in this person. And if the first thing I say to him is, Hey, you want, you know, like God calls every man, everyone, everywhere to repentance.

38:06

And that's part of this discussion that you're not really allowed to have. And so like what, what this principle is violating is the idea that you have to like invest in people for long periods of time before you're able to like earn an opportunity to speak to them.

38:18

Right. Yeah. But Jesus doesn't really operate that way. I mean, like the first thing he says to people is like, go and sin no more.

38:24

Right. So people can come to him, but they're not going to come to him in the midst of sinning and they're not going to rub their sin in his face.

38:30

And then they're not going to just sit there and say, Hey, you know, like you accept it indefinitely until you get the courage for talk to it.

38:36

Jesus doesn't play by those rules. So any individual who is legitimately being drawn by the spirit, like a person who's a legitimate being drawn by the spirit.

38:45

If someone says, Hey, you like, um, you're welcome here, but you need to repent. Like that's an act of love that that person just get dead.

38:53

Right. Yeah. You're welcome here, but you need to repent of that. And you're not going to pray that abomination in front of us.

38:59

But you know, if you repent of that, we'll welcome you. You right. Right. Yeah. Like, like any person being drawn by the spirit, they will take that.

39:08

Well, you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Or, or even if they, um, don't don't, they will think about it.

39:15

Yeah, they will. And it'll lay there dormant for a little while. And eventually, you know, it'll bear fruit and they'll thank you.

39:24

It'll bear fruit in the future at some point. Um, so what, what, but that's the whole issue here.

39:30

Right. And so, I mean, there's a variety of situations like this where Jesus doesn't like, like, and this is the principle people have to get their mind.

39:38

Like, yeah, sinners are welcome to church, but they're not welcome to sin in the assembly.

39:44

Yeah. Right. So when Phineas basically, um, you know, a good example of this is like, um, you know, essentially the situation in the old covenant where you have like an

39:54

Israelite bringing, uh, you know, a Midianite woman into the assembly in order to have sex with her, like in front of the whole eyes of the whole congregation.

40:04

And there's a plague that God is doing because they're having sex with these foreign women. And, you know, Phineas comes with the spear and runs them through in order to stop like the, the plague that the

40:14

Lord is unleashing on the whole society. Right. So like you have instances where it's like,

40:19

Hey, you're not bringing that iniquity into the assembly. I mean, you have Jesus going into the temple and overturning the money changers.

40:26

Right. Yeah. Like the turning, overturning the tables and basically saying, you're taking my father's house and turning it into a den of thieves.

40:32

That's not to say that like, Hey, a thief is not welcome to come to church. Sure. Like, um, in order to, you know, quote unquote, hear about the gospel as if that's really what most people are even doing when they go to church.

40:44

Right. I'm coming to church. I'd like to hear about the gospel today. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

40:50

Um, you know, but like, like the, the issue is you're not allowed to bring that sin in here.

40:58

Right. Yeah. So you're not allowed, you're not going to rub all of our nose in it. Like hold us all captive and say, Hey, you must accept this and turn a blind eye to it and watch it.

41:06

And like, that's like the issue is you can come, right. You can, yeah, you can come and there's no one is perfect.

41:12

Right. No, it's perfect. Like we all have our own sin, but in this, you know, in this place, you're laying that aside.

41:19

I could just imagine, you know, someone, someone there when

41:24

Jesus is flipping the tables or, you know, when Phineas is running those two people through with a spear to, you know, get them to stop the sexual immorality that they're committing.

41:34

I could just imagine someone who's there saying something along the lines of like Phineas. No, we don't know what, we don't know their hearts, you know,

41:44

Jesus. No, we don't know. We don't know the depths of their heart. What if she was coming to hear the gospel?

41:50

Right. Yeah. Now, now they'll never hear, you know, they'll never hear the gospel. Yeah. So it's just like a, you know, like obviously, you know, obviously like that's true.

42:01

We don't always know people's hearts, but then if people tell you right through their actions, then it's typically a good idea to believe them.

42:09

Right. Right. So, but you know, all that to say there are a lot of people out there who, who basically are looking at all of this and they're saying,

42:21

Hey, like you're just, you're, you're being completely unloving, right. By, by not letting them in, in the middle of their sin.

42:31

Right. Sure. Either, either you're being unloving or you're judging people by their outward appearances.

42:38

I've seen, I've seen some people argue that, Hey, you know, we're not supposed to judge people by their outward appearances and you're judging them by their outward appearance and not letting them in because of the way they look.

42:50

So because of that, like you're actually the one who's in sin. So is there any sense in which like that is an actual critique that because we're looking at a person and saying,

43:02

Hey, you're dressed like a man when you're a woman or vice versa, then we are then, you know, judging someone by their outward appearance, not, you know, and using that to determine whether or not they can come and join the assembly of God.

43:19

I mean, just think about the KKK person. I refer back to exhibit a, the

43:26

KKK. I mean, yes. So, so here's the thing.

43:32

I mean, like what people wear says something. Okay. Right. And this is like, this is what we used to know.

43:38

Like you used to know that like you send certain signals by the things that you wear. And so like, meaning like if you have a person dressed as a boss, prostitute,

43:48

I mean, Proverbs talks about like the young man going to, you know, the woman who's dressed like a prostitute and Wally and heart and all that, like she's sending a message.

43:58

Like you send a message by the way you dress. So you can send a message that like, I'm a slob.

44:03

I don't care about, you know, anything like you, you can send all sorts of messages. You can send a message that I'm like sexually immoral.

44:12

Right. I'm, you know, to use the language of a past generation, I'm easy. Right. You can, you can send those messages by what you wear.

44:18

But what's demanded is that we ignore any message. Now, I mean, if you dress like a KKK person, KKK person, you're obviously sending a message.

44:25

Like you send a message. You hate black people. We got it. We got it loud and clear. You've communicated effectively, like through what you've wore.

44:33

Like we received the message. You're, you know, you're a racist. We got it. Right.

44:39

No, no, that's not a welcome message to bring into this place. So, I mean, like, you know, like that takes zero effort whatsoever to judge.

44:47

If you're a man dressed as a woman, like you're sending a message. Like I'm pretending to be something I'm not. I'm committing an abomination in the language of the

44:53

Bible. So we don't have to like, I don't have to judge your heart to know that you're doing something objectively the

45:01

Bible calls an abomination. Right. Right. So I now I, I, I can assume you're doing that as a flex.

45:10

That would be a mode of judgment. Or I can assume that like you're just completely clueless. Right.

45:16

But sincere. Right. If you're completely clueless and sincere, then you won't mind me saying, hey, you're welcome here if you change.

45:25

Because God calls what you're doing an abomination. And if the Holy Spirit is at work in your heart, then you're going to receive that.

45:32

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like in the same way that Jesus like. So what all that's happening there is you have instead of like, listen to like, come hang out first and then we'll give you like the message, repent and believe the good news.

45:48

We're doing it on the front end. If you're sincere, if you're being drawn by the spirit, you'll receive it. If you're not sincere, you won't receive it.

45:55

Right. Yeah. So like this is just about like your view of God's sovereignty, like and how does it work and what are the methods he's given you to use?

46:03

So like, you know, if you're if you're legitimately being drawn by the Holy Spirit to God, then what you need to hear is like the first person in your life to not say look at you and say, hey, you know, you go, girl.

46:14

What you need is like the first person to look at your life and say, hey, go sin no more. Right. Like, like we're not you're welcome here, but you're not welcome here to commit an abomination in our presence.

46:25

And like, that's the first loving act that person's probably received. Right. Right. Now, I guess, you know.

46:33

What about. I have I have heard this critique, too. So, OK, we're talking about loving the person we're talking about telling the person the truth.

46:42

Right. The only the only way they're going to know is if they hear the gospel, understand they're in sin.

46:48

So, I mean, couldn't you make an argument that, hey, if you're going to send them away from the church, you know, you're you're essentially saying, hey, don't come here.

46:57

The gospel. Right. No, I mean,

47:04

I think what you're saying is you're saying, let me tell you the gospel right now.

47:11

And the gospel is the good news that if you repent of your sins and believe the good news, Jesus will save you.

47:16

And so like this is a this is a assembly that's for the Lord. And we're here to worship the

47:21

Lord. And like we're not here to bring sin in the midst of what we're doing. So, I mean, you could tell them that right there.

47:27

They don't have to hear it special, like, you know, after, you know, a rock concert and, you know, a bunch of like emotional chords or something like that.

47:36

And then, you know, after that, then especially from the pastor, like the issue is you could tell him right then.

47:43

Uh -huh. Well, that's hard. That's hard. It's easier to just let the pastor do it. I'm not suggesting like that.

47:53

What you say is I get out of here, pervert. Uh -huh. Get out of here, you dirty racist.

48:05

I think, you know, like, hey, look, like racism is a sin.

48:10

Like, what would you say to the KKK guy? Hey, you know, like racism is a sin. It's repugnant to God, like hating people on the basis of their skin color and, you know, dressing up in an outfit that basically tells certain classes of people that you hate them.

48:28

That's subjectively wrong. And you're not going to do that here. Right? Like, we love the

48:33

Lord. We love you. We love you enough to tell you that you need to, like, turn from that. And, like, hey,

48:39

I don't know what you look like under that hood. Right? But you're welcome back, you know, like if you want to come here with sincerity, but you're not welcome here, like, to put on a show.

48:50

Right? Right. Like, we're not going to respond to that kind of thing here. Right? Like, that has no place here.

48:56

So you, you as a person, you're welcome here if you – but you're not welcome here, like, to parade sin in front of all of our faces.

49:06

And so, I mean, that's what you say. And so, I mean, you say, hey, like, Jesus died on the cross to forgive people like you.

49:11

Right? And to change people like you's heart. And he can cleanse you from the uttermost.

49:16

Like, maybe you've never known anything different than what you've experienced here. But he can cleanse you to the uttermost.

49:21

He can change that wretched, racist heart of yours. Right? If you repent of your sins and believe what

49:27

Jesus did. Like, you could be a new person. And you could say that's the same thing to them. They don't have to hear it from the pastor, especially after, like, you know, three emotional songs or something.

49:37

Yeah. Yeah. So essentially, you know, and just kind of going back to what you're saying with the whole, like, you don't have to work to earn the right to be heard.

49:50

You can just – Jesus didn't. The apostles didn't. The prophets didn't.

49:55

They just told people the truth. Right? And – I mean, same thing for the nudists. Right? Same thing for the nudists.

50:02

You need to take your wretched, naked heart away from here. And – You're welcome here with clothes.

50:11

You're welcome here. You're welcome to come hear the gospel once you put clothes on. But I'll tell you the gospel now.

50:18

And I'm just going to put my hand, you know, right here so I can only see you from the neck up.

50:25

I've got a choir robe for you to wear. I've got a choir robe for you to wear. You're welcome to come in.

50:31

No, I didn't get it from the KKK guy who came earlier. But yeah, yeah.

50:38

Essentially, it's just – I mean, essentially, that's kind of getting at an issue that we won't expand on right now.

50:44

But just this idea that a lot of Christians – really, honestly,

50:50

I'd be willing to say probably even just the majority of Christians, like 90 % – and I think that's probably still being generous – probably never share the gospel or hardly ever share the gospel.

51:05

And they view the church service as their excuse to get people to hear the gospel.

51:11

But that's what it's about. That is what it's about. Right. That's what it's about. Totally. Like, I don't want to do this myself.

51:17

It has to be done in an impersonal, indirect way. Right, right. Yeah, that's essentially going to shield me from any sort of pushback or whatever.

51:26

And the pastor too, right? Right, right. Because you can't – it's not like a one -on -one dialogue that you can have with the person.

51:33

It's just like a, hey, you're going to go sit down and you're going to hear it, and then you do whatever you want with that.

51:38

But yeah, people really do view the church service as like a, this is how they're going to hear the gospel.

51:48

And a lot of Christians think they're being really brave when they're inviting people to come visit their church, who they know are probably not

51:58

Christians. Right? They think they're being really brave, and they're doing exactly what

52:03

God wants them to do. Which, I mean, I want to say there's nothing wrong with inviting someone to come visit your church, right?

52:11

There's nothing inherently wrong about that. It is, yeah. I mean, it is if it's a cloak for a vice, essentially.

52:19

Right, right. So there's nothing inherently wrong with it. But then if you're using it as like a – you're doing it so that you don't have to share the gospel with them.

52:28

Well, that's what everyone is – so that's the whole thing. Everyone is using, like, invite them. Like, if you were to tell people, like, you know, we need to be about the

52:36

Great Commission. We need to make disciples. Instantaneously in their mind what they hear is invite people to church.

52:42

Yeah, yeah. That's what they hear. And it's like, that's not what I said. Right, yeah. Like, we need to evangelize more.

52:48

Like, we need to evangelize more. What do they hear? Invite people to church. If you were to set out – like, you set them out to do that task, what they're going to do is invite people to church.

52:58

And it's like, you didn't listen to what I said. Right, yeah. You can invite them to church after you share the gospel with them.

53:05

Share the gospel, and then you can invite them to church right after. And, I mean, like, the church is not for unbelievers in that way.

53:13

So, I mean, like, what you come to the church and you're witnessing a feeding of the sheep. Right. So, like, you know, in your standard church, like, your standard church shouldn't be having an altar call with the same, you know, 52 ways to get saved kind of messages every week.

53:29

I mean, if you're going verse by verse in the Bible, every single message in the Bible is not like an invitation to be saved every week.

53:37

So, like, that's just not what it is. And, I mean, that's not what it should be. And if that's what it is, then you're probably never – like, there's more in the

53:46

Bible than just how to be reconciled with your Maker. Right. So, you know, everything in some sense connects back to the gospel, but every single message is not like 52 salvation messages, 52 ways to be justified every week.

53:58

And so, like, this is a feeding of a sheep, right? So, if you have an outsider or an unbeliever come enter into your assembly, there should be, like, a knowledge that, hey, yeah, like, you're witnessing something that really isn't for you.

54:11

Okay? Like, this is a feeding of a sheep here. This is about God. This is not for you. And, like, that's what people can't – like, we're so seeker -sensitive, like, in our mind with all this stuff that we think that, like, the church service is for unbelievers.

54:24

It's not for unbelievers. Church service is for God. Right. Yeah, it's not even – you know, I think a lot of people would even be fooled into saying, hey, you know, it's not for unbelievers.

54:33

It's for believers. Right? And it's like, well, no, no, no. That's not true either. Right? It's for God, like you said.

54:40

And so – Yeah, this is for God. And what we're doing here is we're equipping His sheep. Right. Right? We're worshiping

54:45

Him and equipping His sheep. That's what we're doing. Right. Okay. Well, that's all the questions I have for you,

54:51

Tim. Is there anything that you want to say in closing, in summary, or anything like that? Yeah, I mean,

54:57

I think definitely when you're talking about a topic like this, it's obviously the kind of topic that there's a lot of people who just will respond in an emotional way.

55:05

But I do think that, like, just thinking through those different categories of individuals, I think everyone has some sort of breaking point when it comes to this.

55:11

Yeah. To where there's some sort of something that someone can do. That's no longer protected. Right.

55:17

That's no longer protected. And the issue is not, like – the issue is, like, who – like, how are you determining who is protected and who is not?

55:27

And I think the sad reality is most people are determining who is protected by an intersectional hierarchy. That's how they're determining who is protected.

55:35

And so really, like, when you think about it that way, like, you're trained to protect sexual deviants because society tells you you must protect them.

55:43

Right. Right. But then, like, racists have no protection, like, from you, right? And in fact, like, you throw, like, a church under the bus who is going to harbor, right, harbor and coddle racists.

55:55

So – but then that tells you that, like, hey, you need actually a consistent principle here that you're going to apply in every single scenario.

56:00

And what is it? And I think, like, the issue is, like, all sinners are welcome into the church, but you're not welcome to commit abominations in the church.

56:09

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, you're not allowed – you're not welcome to come and smoke up – smoke, you know, smoke a joint while you're in the middle of church service.

56:19

So, yeah, like, drug addicts, they're welcome. They're not welcome high, right? Right. Yeah. You can't, you know, you can't shoot up in the middle of a service, right?

56:28

Porn addicts, you know, you're welcome to come, but, you know, you're going to get confronted at some point and you're not welcome to watch porn in the middle of a service.

56:35

Right. Right. You know, quote, unquote, you know, cross -dressers, they're welcome to come.

56:41

They're not welcome to come and cross -dress. You know, a same -sex couple, they're welcome to come.

56:47

They're not welcome to come and hold hands and show same -sex affection while they're – while in the middle of the service.

56:53

So, like, you're welcome to come, like, as an individual who is going to not flaunt your immorality in everyone's face, though.

57:00

Okay. Well, Tim, we appreciate you giving us the answers to those questions.

57:07

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57:22

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57:37

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57:46

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57:58

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58:07

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58:18

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.