June 23, 2018 Show with Andy Woodard & Gary Rosenblatt on “Challenges Faced Being a Biblically Faithful Church Plant in a Liberal Urban Center”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live

streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 22nd

day of June 2018, and I'm so delighted to have two

guests on today.

One, a returning guest who technically was actually a co -host once before on

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and one who is a first -time guest or a first -time

appearance, making a first -time appearance in any way on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The first being Andy Woodard, who is lead pastor at New Covenant Church, New York City,

located in Manhattan, and also Gary Rosenblatt, who is a treasurer

and a preacher along with Andy at New Covenant Church, New York City, in Manhattan, and

today we are going to be addressing challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a

liberal urban center, and we're also going to be announcing the free New York City Bible Seminar

featuring guest speaker Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, which is going to be held in

Manhattan at the First Baptist Church of New York City, where we are renting the facilities

on Friday, July 6th, 630 p .m. to 10 p .m.

That church happens to be on the corner of 79th and Broadway in Manhattan, but it's my honor and

privilege to welcome you both to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Andy Woodard.

And Gary Rosenblatt.

Thank you, Chris.

It's great to be here.

If anybody would like to join us on.

The air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chris arnsen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of

residence, if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I can readily

understand why this topic might lend itself to

people being intimidated to be public about their opinion because they

may be in a church that has some of the character flaws that we are going to be

seeking to refute or critique today.

So we can understand that a person like that might want to remain anonymous.

A person who's even a pastor who disagrees with his own congregation or fellowship or denomination

over these issues that we're going to be addressing might want to remain anonymous.

But if it's not a personal and private matter, please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your

country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Well, I am going to start the way I normally do when I have first -time guests

on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I have them each give an abbreviated version of their

salvation testimony, what kind of religious upbringing they had as a child, if

any, and what providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord brought into their lives that

drew them to himself and saved them.

And we are going to start with Andy Woodard.

If you could please let us know how our Lord saved you.

Obviously, everybody is saved in one way, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, in

his shed blood.

But there are many different providential circumstances in everyone's

lives that brought people to the.

Saving knowledge of Christ.

So if you could start, Andy.

Thanks, Chris.

I was raised in a pastor's home, actually, and

both of my parents were born and raised in pastor's homes.

So the year goes back quite a ways.

I think there's actually a third or fourth generation of pastors as well that go back to the extended

grandparents.

But our family had memorizing

scripture on the breakfast table, and then we would read the Bible and pray together each evening, and that was just normal

life for me.

It was all I'd really ever known.

But those practices and being in church every time the doors were open, Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night,

that in and of itself was not enough to save me.

I made a profile because it seemed like the thing to do.

Everyone else was a Christian, and I didn't want to be left out.

Sort of thought as fire insurance that if I would say the sinner's prayer or say these magic words, then I

would be good to go and be assured of heaven.

So I prayed the sinner's prayer when I was around age three, and it was

it was not real.

It was definitely based on false motives, and the Holy Spirit was not

in that.

I was baptized a few years later as a false convert, and

again, same type of reasoning.

My parents had a rule that was we couldn't take communion unless we'd been baptized, which now I look back on,

and I think that was definitely the right decision.

However, I started taking communion, and I didn't want to be left out, so I said

harangued them until I was able to be baptized a couple years

later.

Then around age nine or ten, the Holy Spirit really started to

begin convicting me of my sin and my lostness, and my father's preaching was

not the typical fire and brimstone of the

independent Baptist traveling preachers that were coming through.

My father was an independent Baptist pastor, but he just faced,

through the course of that, the Holy Spirit was convicting me of my sin.

I resisted the Holy Spirit for months and weeks on end, or weeks and months, but then

in February, we had a guest evangelist come through speaking in our church, and I went to the back for the

children's service, because I was like nine, and the evangelist's wife was teaching the

lesson, and at the end, she gave a very simple gospel presentation and said, if you're not saved, you need to

get saved.

No pressure, nothing like that, just very matter of fact.

And I remember standing there thinking, that's my issue.

My problem is I'm not saved.

It's not just a lack of assurance, which was kind of a buzzword at the time, but it was lostness.

But again, I felt as though I had an image to uphold as the pastor's kid, because you live under massive pressure as a

pastor's kid.

So I didn't say anything, and I went home, as I'd done for every other time I felt the Holy Spirit convicting me of my

sin and lostness, and I tried to go to sleep again, as had happened every Sunday and Wednesday night for the

last several months, and was terrified as I lay there in bed, and felt as though if I

were to die, I would be lost and go to hell, which is true.

And then eventually, I came to a point where I decided, you know, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks,

or what, I'm going to go wake them up and tell them that I'm lost and I

need to be saved.

And so I went and woke my mom up in the middle of the night for what was probably the third or fourth time doing this, and

told her, it's not that I just don't feel saved, it's that I'm not saved.

And so again, I prayed the same sinner's prayers that I'd prayed years before, but this

time the reality was that the Holy Spirit had been convicting me of my sin and drawing me to Himself

in genuine faith instead of hypocrisy or desire to fit

in or be part of the in -club, so to speak.

Teen years were fairly standard, kind of run -of -the -mill, not

terribly eventful, except for that when I was 17 years old,

through the influence of my trumpet teacher, I got involved in...or he gave me a book on the

doctrines of grace, and he gave me that book and said, this will change your life if you read it.

And it did, and it did change my life.

And then I went off to college to study for ministry, and

during the end of freshman year, we were talking about baptism, and I realized that I

believed in believers' baptism, and therefore I needed to be baptized, because I had not been baptized as a believer.

So I contacted my dad and asked if I could be baptized at the end of

freshman year, my first Sunday back at home, but only if I could get my testimony first, because I'd never heard or seen anyone do

that, but I knew that I needed to do that.

So when I got home, I was baptized in May of 2010 at age 19.

So that's my salvation and.

Baptism testimony.

And before we move on to Gary Rosenblatt, tell us how you knew that the Lord.

Put a call upon your life to become a minister.

Yeah, it was kind of a growing thing.

I started out when I visited Bible College and sat in on some classes, and I realized

that right now, this moment, I can sit in this class learning about ministry while

my other friends are in English, history, math,

science.

We're here learning about the Bible, learning about God, and I thought that was the

coolest thing.

But I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a Bible major with a music minor or a music major with a Bible minor.

So I started with the Bible major and the talked to my voice

teacher at the end of freshman year and asked if he thought I was good enough to be a music major, and he said, uh,

probably not.

So I stuck with the Bible major and then just got

involved in a church, and through serving in the church,

my gifts for ministry began to grow and be tested and get opportunities and

experience.

And yeah, then eventually the church sent me to New York, and

yeah, I don't want to jump ahead of myself too much, but it's

absolutely vitally connected to the local church and the recognition.

Affirmation of the local church.

Great, and Gary Rosenblatt, if you could give us your personal.

Testimony

of

salvation

as

well.

Oh, no,

where

was

this

on Long

Island?

Because

I was

raised

on

Long.

Island.

Oh, wow.

I have been to Syosset many, many times.

Yeah, if anyone listening has not been to Syosset, you are not missing too much.

My apologies to all my listeners in Syosset.

Well, there were a few good restaurants there, at least years ago, I remember.

So there was one restaurant by the Syosset train station that legend has it Billy Joel.

Based.

I could believe that because he was from Oyster Bay, so I believe that.

So it is possible, but there's also like five other restaurants that have that same name.

I remember there was a place, Cafe Testarossa, in the 90s.

Yes, that's still there.

Oh, wow.

And I remember I had, I orchestrated James White's very first

debate with a Muslim at the Bible Baptist Church.

Or the, let me see, what was it called?

I think it was called the Bible Baptist Church of Syosset.

Yes, and it doesn't exist anymore.

It's another.

Church now, but I know exactly the building it's in and where it is.

Right, I know.

I think it's.

Basically just the name changed.

I think it's still in the Conservative Baptist Association, if I'm not mistaken.

Shelter Rock Church, correct?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, that's, I think it's still in the CBA, but back then, back then the pastor was

reformed.

He actually was a missionary on the staff at Charles Stanley's church

there in Georgia, and he got himself into trouble when he on the Doctrines of Grace when

Dr. Stanley was away on vacation, and he told me that the person

who ran the tape room, a lot of people might not even know what tapes are these days who are listening, if they're

a lot younger than me, but the recording room where people purchased the recordings of the sermons,

apparently the person running that room said that there were more orders for this

pastor's sermon on the five points of Calvinism or on unconditional election, whatever it was, than they

had had in years.

The real question is, did he get invited back?

No, he was actually barred from the pulpit for the remainder of his living

in Georgia, or for the remainder of his being a member of that church.

But anyway, James White debated Hamza Abdul Malik at the

Bible Baptist Church of Syosset, and that was his first Muslim debate.

But James doesn't call that his first Muslim debate because James knew

very little about Islam at that time, and he defended the deity of

Christ rather than refute any specific Muslim

teachings.

So he doesn't really consider that his first Muslim debate.

I do, because I orchestrated it.

But anyway, it was an interesting event because, as I said,

James and I knew little about Islam at that time, and all of a sudden,

right during the middle of the debate, dozens of these

Muslim men stand up and leave the room, leaving their baggage behind.

So it was quite unnerving.

What the heck is going on here?

And what it turned out to be is they were going into another room to pray and bow to Mecca.

But anyway, you can probably find that somewhere at AOMIN .org, that's

A -O -M -I -N .org, the Alpha and Omega Ministries website.

I'm sure that they have that recording or video available.

But anyway, I interrupted you, I'm sorry.

That's okay.

Well, if you

want to pick up

where you left off.

Yeah, so yes,

I've been there.

They were Church.

Of the Week on WMCA radio when I worked there, and I represented the radio station

WMCA 570 AM at that church.

I remember.

Did you go to the English or Chinese service?

I went to an English service.

But everyone there other than me was a Chinese American.

And actually, there's one other Caucasian American who was the song leader.

It's similar when I went there.

Praise God.

If you did, I would start to doubt your testimony immediately.

I like that little slip of the tongue that your five points were brought to life or however you.

Said

that.

Well,

praise

God.

Well,

praise

God.

And

by the

way, are

you

familiar with Syosset Gospel Church in Syosset?

So yeah, so Mike Steffens, if you're listening, hi.

Well, yeah, I've known Pastor Paul Steffens for many years, going back to the 90s.

He attended many of my Long Island pastors' luncheons that I began in, I

believe, the early 90s.

My late wife, Julie, was the one who came up with the idea to treat pastors to lunch

a week or two before Christmas every year.

She said, since I know so many pastors that I have more friends that are

pastors than anybody she had ever met.

And she said, why don't we, instead of giving each other gifts for Christmas, use that money to treat your

pastor friends to a lunch?

And I began doing that.

We had a speaker every year.

We gave away books that were donated to Christian publishers, donated by Christian

publishers.

And Pastor Steffens used to come to many of those.

And then it grew to such a large event that I had to get corporate sponsorship to help me fund the events.

But I have not yet met Michael, unless I met him when he was a little boy, and don't remember, but

I've heard wonderful things about Michael.

In fact, I've heard that he is a fellow believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Thank you very much, Ed.

Amen.

That was always a little bit of a bone of contention with his dad and I, because his dad was a Wesleyan,

and is perhaps still, I'm assuming.

He still is.

Yeah.

But a wonderful man, though.

Very nice man, and always enjoyed his company and fellowship.

In fact, he was a client of mine for a while.

He had a radio program that I sold him on

a radio station.

But anyway, now I'd like, in fact, I'm going to go to our first break right now.

And when I return, I'm going to have, first of all, I'm going to have Andy

Woodard give a little description of New Covenant Church NYC.

And of course, Gary, you could add anything to that.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us, as always, your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt of New

Covenant Church NYC, right after these messages from our sponsors.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Tired of box store Christianity?

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times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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We are now back with Andy Woodard, who is lead pastor at New Covenant Church New

York City in Manhattan, and we also have Gary Rosenblatt, who is a treasurer and preacher

there at New Covenant Church NYC, and we are discussing challenges faced being a

biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center, and we are also

announcing the free New York City Bible Seminar featuring guest speaker Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto

Baptist Seminary.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s

-a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and Pastor

Andy Woodard, if you could begin now with a description of New Covenant Church

NYC, which is located in Manhattan, tell us how long ago this church

plant came into existence and some of the particular.

Character traits of this congregation.

Yeah, so we are approaching the one -year mark of beginning Sunday services.

We began Bible studies a year ago in June, and then we

shifted those over to Sunday in July, on July 2nd, so

July 1st will actually be the one -year mark, that's a Sunday.

We started with three people, and then we've

been slowly adding about one person per month, on average.

Some months we do, and then other months we don't, and then we'll have a month where we add two people, and

so it's kind of just slowly plodding along.

We came into existence, well, before planting New

Covenant, originally in 2014, I moved to New York because my college

church sent me, and another church here in New York called me, so they sort of

worked together to get me connected with the ministry here in New York.

So I moved to New York to work for a church and did that for a couple years, and

while I was doing that, I was studying online through Southern Seminary and working on my Master of Divinity,

and along the way kind of growing in my ecclesiology and my convictions about

the local church and the ordinances and membership and baptism and all those things, and so

I kind of found myself going in a slightly different direction from the church where I was working, so I

eventually resigned and moved back to Kentucky, or moved to Kentucky to finish my

degree in residence.

While I was there, I received a lot of calls and letters and texts from a small handful of folks in New

York asking me to come back.

So I came back, and my home church where I grew up in Florida had agreed and voted

unanimously to be our sending church for the

trip back to New York, and worked

with them and also worked for North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens during the summer as their summer music director.

Yeah, and Ed Moore, who has been a friend of mine since the early 1990s, I was one of his very

first friends after he moved from Columbia, South Carolina

to New York, and we became fast friends almost immediately after his

arrival, and have been friends ever since, and he spoke extremely highly of you and

not in any flattering way or a fake way or exaggerated way.

In fact, knowing Ed, he doesn't toss around lofty

compliments about people unless they are warranted, and he certainly was singing your

praises recently, not in an idolatrous way, but he was saying a lot of wonderful things about

you.

In fact, he was hoping that you were going to be one of the speakers at the conference that we are orchestrating in Manhattan, but.

Perhaps another day we'll do that.

Thanks for that, the amount of time to add extra people.

So I had a wonderful summer working with North Shore, and so much

so they asked me to continue working with them, and I had to decline because it

takes an hour and a half to get there from my apartment, and just wasn't something that I could

continue doing and balancing the Sunday services at their church with a Sunday evening service

for our church plant.

But I do hope to go visit them for their Wednesday worship

midweek service during the summer, and it's just a wonderful time, so hoping to get back

out there before that wraps up, I'm assuming the end of August.

Yeah, so I worked with them.

One of the members in their church helped us with the legal stuff, the incorporation and all that, and

our church got incorporated on August 9th, and we had our first five -verse

covenant together to join the church on November 23rd, so our church spiritually began November

23rd, though it legally began on August 9th, and I met Gary

in September, sometime in the fall.

I got this email from this Jewish banker who's like, when's your Bible study?

And so it was canceled for the first three weeks, and then it

stayed canceled.

Then he eventually was able to come on a Sunday and visited, and yeah, so that's kind

of how we got started, and the Lord has continued to bring more people along the

way.

Let's see, some characteristics about the church.

We are what they jokingly call, the Nine

Marks organization, they jokingly call Nine Marxists, so we believe in the...

That's a very dangerous term to use these days for the very reason we're having this conference.

In

Manhattan.

Yeah.

...describes, and

we are under the authority, because

he's

done

a lot of

ministry in the Middle East, and he agreed to mentor me and help me

walk through these steps, and

so we

started.

We are a

Reformed Baptist church, so we're not a capital R Reformed, meaning we're not

like...

Not yet!

...1989 to probably be the closest thing to where I am, though I do...

I'm not entirely sure what we mean by New Covenant theology these days, but I do like

the concept from what I understand it to be, and I like it enough that we named the church New Covenant Church.

So we're a Reformed Baptist church, and our definition of ourselves is that

we are a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church and to do what the church is commanded to do,

and we see 12 things that the church is commanded to do, which are evangelism, discipleship,

biblical membership, biblical church leadership, which are elders and deacons, biblical preaching and teaching, biblical ordinances,

which are baptism, the Lord's Supper, biblical

worship.

I find that

in its plainness, it seems to be somewhat extraordinary

to find like -minded churches in Manhattan that are...

that hold these same values.

Whereas you can go to some of the largest pastors' conferences in the country and find 90 of the people there would

completely agree with all these things, such as like a T4G or a Shepherd's

Guide here in Manhattan,.

It's not like that.

Okay, Gary Rosenblatt, if you could now add anything about the church, why you decided

to join the church, etc.

Is Gary Rosenblatt there?

I am very much here.

Now, how many, did you say, Reformed Baptist churches in Manhattan did you count?

Well, we're getting there.

Well, you gotta tell me about those churches because I'm totally unaware

of any.

Of

them.

Yeah, when

I

first

heard you say

that

you had

this

list of

11 or so churches, I thought.

That you said they were all Reformed Baptist, and I think I'm mistaken about that.

I think I.

Misheard

you,

right?

No,

that's

all.

Praise

God.

And I

just

want to,

I

know

I'll

be

repeating

this.

God -willing later on, but just for any of you listening who would like to visit New Covenant

Church NYC, whether you already live in Manhattan or close enough to travel there, or if you know you're

going to be visiting there, and I'm so glad that now when I have people emailing me,

which many over the years have done, I'm visiting New York City next week.

Do you have any church recommendations?

I was always having to refer people typically outside of Manhattan itself,

just because I'm uncomfortable with some of the major churches that claim to be Reformed in Manhattan, and you

are obviously aware of them.

But now I can very eagerly say, well, go to ncc .nyc.

NCC for New Covenant Church, dot NYC for New York City, and we'll be

repeating that later.

We're going to be going to our midway break right now.

In fact, I'm going to read a question before we go to the break, and then you guys can answer it when we return from the

break.

We have Larry from Williamsport, Pennsylvania, who he says is the

home of Little League Baseball, and he is a member of City Church in

Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and his statement slash question, he

obviously knows you guys.

He does.

Okay, because he says, these two men have very strong views on the nature of the church.

I was wondering what particular books or teachers helped them form their views on

ecclesiology, and you can answer that when we return from the break.

And anybody else who'd like to join us on the air, again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Andy Woodard and Gary

Rosenblatt from New Covenant Church, NYC, on the challenges faced being a biblically faithful church

plant in a liberal urban center.

We'll be right back, God willing.

Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512.

Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat

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We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

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Hi,

I'm Buzz Taylor,.

Frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

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Sharpen's Iron Radio when ordering $50 or more worth of merchandise.

Also, I need to let you know that I've got to announce some very important events coming up.

First of all, Dr. Tony Costa, who is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto

Baptist Seminary, he is going to be preaching at the morning worship service at Hope Reformed Baptist

Church of Medford, Long Island on Sunday, July 1st.

And if you want more details about that, their website at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island

is hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net.

Their phone number is 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

Right after that, the following Friday, July 6th from 6 .30 p

.m. to 10 p .m. at the First Baptist Church of New York City, my

guests and I are orchestrating a free New York City seminar featuring Dr. Tony

Costa, who we just mentioned, author and professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is going to be preaching there, and the church is located on 265 West 79th Street

on the corner of Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side.

The first session that Dr. Costa will be addressing, or I should say the first topic he'll

be addressing, is Defending the Faith in a Postmodern Society.

The second topic that evening will be the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on

society and the church.

And the third session will be a question and answer session with the audience.

We are in the process of developing or arranging a intimate gathering

of pastors for lunch that day, so if you are a pastor and you'd like to join us at 12 noon in

New York City with Dr. Costa, you can contact us.

But to contact us for any information about this event that's being held Friday, July 6,

6 .30 p .m. to 10 p .m. at First Baptist Church of New York City on 265 West 79th Street and

Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side, you can call the New Covenant Church NYC

at 646 -770 -2282.

646 -770 -2282.

You can also email them at NCC, which stands for New Covenant

Church, NYC for New York City, info at gmail .com.

That's N -C -C -N -Y -C -info at gmail .com.

Or you can email me, Chris Arnzen at chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Please pray about this event.

Please also spread the word about the event.

I'm hoping every single person listening who is a fan of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, who

lives within traveling distance to Manhattan, will be there.

And even if it's inconvenient for you to travel there, if you can get there, please get there

by train, plane, or automobile.

We would love to see you in Manhattan on Friday, July 6, 630 p .m. to 10 p .m. at First

Baptist Church of New York City on the corner of 79th and Broadway.

Then coming up not long after that is the Fellowship Conference New

England.

This is being run by my dear friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson of the Providence Chapel

in Denton, Texas, but the event is being held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland,

Maine.

That's the Fellowship Conference New England, August 2nd through the 4th.

And the speakers include Tim Conway of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas,

the aforementioned Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life

Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pikowitz of the Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton

Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you'd like to join those folks there for that conference, please go to

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and please tell them that you heard about the

conference from Chris Arnzen on Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio.

Then coming up after that, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology, and I am going to be there,

God willing, manning an exhibitor's booth.

That's going to be held November 9th and the 10th at Grace Bible Fellowship Church, Quakertown,

Pennsylvania.

The theme is The Glory of the Cross.

The speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Nguyen.

To register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then scroll down to

the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

I hope to see you there as well.

And then, coming up in January of 2019, I'm so excited to once again,

for the third time, go to the G3 Conference, which is being held at the Georgia International Convention

Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

And I just love this conference, and it has proven to be so valuable to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio in

regard to the people that I have met that have encouraged me, but also the new listeners who have joined the audience of Iron, Sharp,

and Zion Radio as a result of being there, the new sponsors who are enabling us to remain on the

air through their advertising dollars or donations, and also the new guests that I've had on the

program.

It's just been such a valuable event, and I hope that you can join me there.

I will be meeting a Iron, Sharp, and Zion exhibitors booth there as well, and I

hope that you can come.

The event will be held from the 17th to the 19th of January, and

the theme is on missions, and the speakers, there's a long

roster of speakers, very prominent speakers, and also some that may be not very prominent,

but they are still equally as powerful and gifted.

Let me read some of them.

Paul Washer is going to be there, God willing.

John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies,

Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, who's the director of the G3 conference.

By the way, it stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, in case you didn't know.

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen Nichols, who's the president of Reformation Bible

College, the Bible College founded by R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and more.

If you'd like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and then click on G3

Conference 2019.

You can not only register as an attender of this conference, but you can also register

to man an exhibitors booth, just as I will be doing, and if so, a church, a parachurch ministry, a

business of some kind that you want to promote, they're expecting over 4 ,000 people to be

there, so it's a very valuable place to have an exhibitors booth.

Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and you can register not only to

attend, but to man an exhibitors booth.

And now is the least favorite part of the program that I have to do, but it is something that needs to be

done, and that's when I beg you for money.

I rattled my tin cup, and I don't like doing it, but I have to do it, because my

advertisers, who spend hard -earned money on advertising and keeping my show on the air, have urged me to do this for

a long time, and a number of months ago, I finally caved in and began doing it.

So please, if you love the show, you don't want us to go off the air, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support,

then click, click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

There's also going to be an address that appears on the screen where you can mail checks.

If you prefer snail mail, make your checks payable to ironsharpensironradio .com and mail them to the address that you will see.

If you want to advertise with us, just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and

put advertising in the subject line, as long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible

with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with what I believe, but as long as whatever it is you're doing, you're promoting, is compatible

with what we believe, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we truly do need the advertising dollars.

Please never siphon the money away that you would normally give to your local church where you

are a member in order to give to Ironsharpensironradio .com.

Never do that.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Ironsharpensironradio .com.

Those two things are commands of God, supporting your church and your family.

Supporting Ironsharpensironradio .com is not a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability

to obey those two commands, then please consider donating to Ironsharpensironradio .com.

And if you are not a member of a local church, you need to be a member of a local

church or you are living in rebellion against God if you're not prayerfully looking for one.

And I can help you find one.

Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

I've got lists of Bible -believing, faithfully biblical churches all over the world.

So give me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and just put in the subject line, looking for a church or something

like that.

That's also the email address where you can send an email with a question for my guest today.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And we are now back with our discussions with Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt from New

Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan.

We are discussing challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com is our email address.

And before the break, you may remember that Larry from Williamsport,

Pennsylvania, who is an acquaintance or a friend of our guests, said these two men have very

strong views on the nature of the church.

I was wondering what particular books or teachers helped them form their views on

ecclesiology.

If you could, gentlemen.

Well, thank you.

We're going to try and.

Make our answers concise.

Christ died for the church.

He loves the church dearly.

And so continually have a very high priority.

We should be very careful in our thinking and treatment of the church and to remember that the

bride of Christ is the church.

And so we should treat the church like a bride and not in other ways.

So on our website, we have a resources list, which has a bunch of books on it.

So if you go on our website, ncc .nyc, and hit on the menu,

hit resources, scroll down.

There's a reading list.

There's a section there on books.

So our general section on books, Nine Marks of Ecclesiastical Church by Mark Dever, Church Discipline by Lehman,

Membership by Lehman, The Church, The Gospel Made Visible by Mark Dever.

That's a very good one.

That's probably more comprehensive and is more on a deeper level.

Don't Fire Your Church Members, The Case for Congregationalism by Jonathan Lehman, Going Public,

Why Baptism is Required for Church Membership by Bobby Jamison,

What is the Mission of the Church by Kevin DeYoung and Greg Goethe

in Louisville, Kentucky.

There are a couple other reasons for why

I'm passionately and strongly about the church.

One is that from my time in class with Dr. Michael Hagen, who's

at Toronto Baptist Seminary and Southern Seminary.

Yeah, he's been a guest on the program many times, and I always love interviewing him.

Yeah, he's there with Tony Costa at Toronto.

Michael Hagen said in very clear words, and he's a scholar of scholars.

I mean, he's incredible.

He said very, very clearly, and he proved this, demonstrated in class, that you can only baptize unbelievers into

membership in your church for so many generations before your church loses the gospel.

That was a quote from the class.

Yeah, that's a great, great quote.

And that hit me really hard and realized, while I love my Presbyterian and

Gospel -believing Anglican brothers and sisters, the idea of baptizing unbelievers into

the church and then them having some degree of membership or

something of that nature is, we cannot go down and we cannot

approve of as a church, and historically that's just been what you call being Baptist.

So, it's only more recently where, I think the rise or the resurgence of Calvinism,

where Baptists have been more hesitant to say, yeah, I'm a Baptist and I believe that

the only people who should be baptized are Christians.

Also, in light of things like, even the Nicene Creed that says, I believe in one holy apostolic

church, if you believe in a holy church, that means you can't have infant baptism

or unbelievers being baptized, because unbelievers are not holy.

And Gary, do you want to add anything to that?

Oh, sure.

And he did.

Already trouble at New Covenant Church, NYC.

Just kidding.

Sounds like a marriage counseling session, but anyway.

Well, thank you, Larry.

And by the way, Larry, since you're a first -time questioner, possibly even a first -time

listener, you have won a free New American Standard Bible, since you've written in a question today.

And please give us your full mailing address in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, so that cvbbs

.com can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And we want to thank the publishers of the NASB for shipping us

these free Bibles that we give out to first -time questioners.

We also want to thank them so much for renewing their sponsorship of Iron Trip and Zion Radio

without their advertising dollars.

I doubt that we, barring a miracle, could survive and remain on the air.

Thank you, Pike Lambeth and all the folks who publish the NASB.

We have Francisco in

Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates.

And I don't know how he, what is he, a prophet?

He says, yes, you read that right.

Great job.

How does he know that?

Well, anyway, he says, I have a question for your lovely guests.

Andy mentioned that he liked New Covenant theology enough to call the church like that.

Could you please elaborate on your understanding of what New Covenant theology is in

comparison to its counterparts?

He really wants to bring controversy in today's show, doesn't he?

Are there any particular books or teachers who you would draw from to inform your

theology?

Sure.

Hang on a second.

I forgot to mention another book that I think is one of the best books I've ever read on the church as far as relevance for us, and

it's called Church in Hard Places by Mez McConnell.

Church in Hard Places by Mez McConnell.

I interviewed Mez, I believe, at one point.

I can't remember which subject it was, but.

Yeah, that's an excellent book.

So Francisco is actually a part of our church here in New York, but he's from Abu Dhabi,

so he's just giving us a hard time, but that's okay.

So New Covenant theology essentially is, I'm going to hand it over to Gary in just a second,

because he's much smarter than I am, but essentially you've got a spectrum from

dispensationalism to covenant, and there's extreme versions of both and moderate versions of both, and

a million different ways of cutting the pie.

So my understanding, I see New Covenant theology as sort of a middle ground between the two, but

certainly more on the covenant side than the dispensational side.

So we would, for example, be less comfortable with language

like that there's a covenant of works in Genesis, though I don't

really get too uptight about that.

We emphasize two covenants, Old Covenant, New Covenant, and we see all the

covenants in Scripture.

We don't emphasize being Sabbatarian, we see Jesus as our Sabbath rest.

At the same time, we definitely emphasize the Lord's Day or taking a day to set aside to worship

the Lord.

Some authors, there's a guy in Pennsylvania that

is an adjunct professor at Southern Seminary,.

He's a pastor of Zaspel.

Oh, Fred Zaspel, he's a friend of mine, I've known Fred since about 1990.

Yeah, I believe he's written several books on this that are probably helpful, I've never read them.

I would just cite the book of Hebrews as a good handbook on New Covenant theology,

and with that I'll hand it over to Gary and see what he has to say.

Okay, so what the Bible says about his answer.

Well, I do hope to one day again have a debate on Iron Trip and Zion Radio between a New Covenant

representative and a Covenant Baptist representative.

We did have one years ago on the old Iron Trip and Zion Radio program.

Tom Wells was a part of that, and I believe Richard Barcelos was a part of that.

The only problem was that there was a very horrible phone connection and the audio

didn't come out very well.

So I really want to revisit that, especially since there's been much more of an advance in

scholarship, or at least in things in print that are available

since then.

And I would love to have an updated debate that hopefully will take place

within the next number of months, but keep your eyes and ears open for that on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And by the way, Francisco, since you do live in the United States now, give me your full mailing address

and you also have won a free New American Standard Bible.

Compliments of the publishers will be shipped out to you by cvbbs .com when we get your full mailing address.

And I also wanted to ask you, and you could tell me off the air if you know, my friend Leon Blosser, who is

a member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who was a pastor in the United Arab

Emirates for quite a long time, for quite a number of years he was pastoring over there.

So I'd love to know if you know Leon Blosser.

But anyway, we're going to our final break.

I already know that I think I want my guests back in the near future to

discuss the topic that we intended to address because we're already running out of time and we really haven't delved into the

specific topic of challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center.

So we will begin to dabble with that topic when we return, but hopefully we can have

another two hours to really try to focus on that topic in the near future.

But if you want to join us now, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for my now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying

to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled,

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org.

That's providencebaptistchurchma .org or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone needs

a pastor.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

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Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs,

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Call 866 -403 -3768.

That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to batterydepot .com.

That's batterydepot .com.

And I want to thank Battery Depot for being among some of the other sponsors of Iron Trip and Zion Radio who have

renewed their advertising contracts.

Thank you so much, Sal D 'Antonio and the folks at batterydepot .com.

In fact, I want to ask a favor of all of you listening.

Please help me find very large businesses and corporations, or at least businesses, even

if they're small, that use a lot of batteries that I can introduce to batterydepot .com.

I want to return the favor to the folks there for being such faithful supporters of Iron Trip and Zion

Radio since the beginning.

I would love to help them find a really large corporation, or at least a corporation that uses a lot of batteries

to introduce to them.

So if you can let me know, if you know of one, no matter how big or small, as long as they use batteries, send me an

email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and give me their name and location and

so on.

We are now back with our final 20 minutes or so of our interview with Andy Woodard and Gary

Rosenblatt of New Covenant Church NYC, and we are discussing challenges faced being a biblically

faithful church plant in a liberal urban center.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have an anonymous listener who says, being a native New Yorker and a Christian, I have noticed

that there are churches who I believe know better who privately hold to

biblical truths but are so frightened that they will lose members or not attract

new members that they keep these things closeted.

It is very disturbing to me, especially when those who claim to be Calvinistic do this, because they should, of

all people, know that God will use the truth to draw in his sheep and

also to maintain the membership of his sheep without resorting to gimmicks

and to hiding the truth.

Is the opinion of your guests similar to.

What I have just said?

That is correct.

And anything further to add?

Well, while you're.

Thinking, I'm going to give our email address again.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com is our email address if you have any questions.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, from what I remember from, in fact, not only you, Andy, in our private conversations, but Gary, what

you were saying on the air, how disappointed you were by churches that you were visiting and

examining, that seems to be people are leaning

towards political correctness, even if that's not what is really what their heart of hearts wants to do.

They're just doing it to be pragmatic, and it's really infuriating, especially when people who claim in the

sovereignty of God.

Over all things are doing

that.

You mean that you're

saying that

they are liberal or.

Dabbling with liberalism and social justice theories and critical race theories because they actually believe in

them.

They're not using it as a gimmick.

You think that they are.

Seeking to champion these things?

Not all of them.

Oh, I

don't think that either

the listener or.

Myself.

I know that I didn't think that they all know better, but I think that, in fact, I have had

private conversations with pastors whose names I obviously won't mention, who basically

are revealing to me that they are being pragmatic because they think, no one will come if we do that, or

everybody's going to leave if we do that.

So, I mean, I'm not saying that they're all that way, but I do know that there are a disturbing

enough number of brethren who behave that way to be pragmatic.

I think that's a fair statement.

All right, well, thank you, Anonymous, and if you give me your full name

and mailing address off the air, of course, you will receive a free New American Standard Bible,

compliments of the publishers.

If you could, Andy, tell me why, when we first started discussing the free New York

City Bible Seminar featuring Tony Costa that will be held on Friday, July

6th, 630 p .m. to 10 p .m. at the First Baptist Church of New York City on 79th

and Broadway, tell me why, out of all the topics that Dr.

Costa would be very capable to speak on, you chose the topics of

defending the faith in a post -modern society and also the dangers of the impacts of cultural Marxism

on society and the.

Church.

Well, the second topic I think is particularly

pressing and necessary.

Before I get into that, I just want to add an explanation in case we don't get to it

later on.

We are strongly against racism and all forms of racism, and our Church

is quite ethnically diverse, but we believe that

racial reconciliation, as it were, is brought about through the Gospel, and that

if you abandon the Gospel and you embrace atheistic

worldviews in order to attempt to bring about some sort of utopian

society, that that is actually harmful for people.

So in an effort to love God and love our neighbor, we believe that preaching the

Gospel and preaching Christ is actually the best for our society, for our Church, for

the unbelievers, and we're actually doing great harm and damage to people

by embracing critical race theory and by embracing these doctrines of

the secular world that actually enslave people into

worldviews that are antithetical and contrary to the Gospel of Christ.

And while I say that, I believe that, I think that we can see an example of a

ministry that is putting into practice what we are attempting to put into practice

at Queen's, where they boldly, and they truly are unashamed of the

Gospel, and they preach Christ, and it's the most diverse congregation I've ever seen.

And yeah, so we don't think that we need to embrace cultural Marxism or

critical race theory in order to be a friend of the minorities,

but rather, if we preach the Gospel, that is what we must do, and that is the most

loving thing to do for the over 95 of New Yorkers who do not know

Christ, as well as for the 5 who possibly may know Christ,

that we must preach the Gospel.

Yeah, well, our listener obviously can't speak to me, so I don't know if he's.

Satisfied, but I thought it was a very good answer.

And by the way, I just want to give a to North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, since we keep repeating very

nice things about them.

If you want more information about North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, go to ns

-bc .org, N -S for North Shore, dash B -C for Baptist Church, dot O -R -G.

Let's see here, oh, that last listener, I

think that was the anonymous listener, wasn't it?

Yeah, I think so.

We have Julia in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, a first -time questioner.

Your church is located in New York City, one of the most diverse and liberal cities in the United States.

Naturally, you will get stereotyped in many ways, including anti -abortion, pro

-life, but not life after birth, anti -women, anti -LGBTQ, etc.

How do you go around accepting these stereotypes, but also breaking them at the same time with

biblical convictions of grace and truth?

I'll

take

this.

You're

not

bothering

me,

you

can

continue.

Teach at

our

church about

minorities

or sing

of the gospels

about

men.

Well, one thing that I can say about why I am very opposed

to critical race theory and the rhetoric of the social justice warriors

is because I believe racism is a damnable sin, and they

very often, if not most often, are guilty of it themselves.

They are using racism to combat what they think is racism.

I'll go a step further and say that if we really look.

At the scriptures, I don't think race is a biblical category.

No, we're all members of.

Human race.

We're either members of Adam or members of Christ.

Yes, well, we're not all members of Christ, but I mean, if we're saying we're all we're members of Adam or members of

Christ.

Oh, okay.

Yes.

And the idea that is being promoted, the false idea,

that if you are a member of a minority that has a history of persecution or

receiving persecution as victims, and you are not in a

position of authority, you cannot be racist is absolutely absurd,

because we have in the New Testament, the clearest

example of the rebuke of bigotry or ethnic hatred.

The biggest example, clearest example we have are the Jewish Christians who are being

rebuked in the scriptures through the God -breathed words of the scriptures through the Apostle Paul

and others.

When the Jewish Christians were demonstrating hatred towards their

Gentile brethren in Christ, the Gentiles, the very people that had enslaved them and persecuted them

for centuries, the Jews were taught they had no license to

have any kind of a negative opinion of the Gentiles because of their

ethnic backgrounds.

That was being blasted by the Apostle Paul as being a very serious sin.

So there you have a very clear example of this nonsense of you can't be a racist if you've

been part of a persecuted minority.

It's revealing.

That it is nothing but nonsense and a lie.

And to flip it around in the places in the

church, and that's just again to show that we don't want to be silent about these issues.

Again,

combating them has to be the gospel call.

By the way, I don't know if

I told Julia in.

Philadelphia, but you've won a free New American Standard Bible because you're a first -time questioner, so please

give us your full mailing address in Philadelphia and we'll have

CVBBS.

This show is Dublin.

Well, here's another first -time listener who's getting a Bible.

Vince from Phoenix, Arizona.

My question is, should churches such as those that Gary saw in Manhattan be biblically considered

not Christ's church at all, or would they be considered fellow churches but with serious

issues?

And by extension, how ought they be treated if the opportunity or necessity to interface

come up?

This is a very good question.

In fact, it's very similar to the question or the fallacy, I believe,

that both Norman Geisler and Hank Hanegraaff promoted, and of

course many, many, many, many others, that the Church of Rome, for instance,

rather than it being a false church with some truth,

they claim it is a true church with some falsehood, which I totally disagree

with.

It is clearly a false church with some truth, and this is being

expanded into a broader spectrum by our listener in Phoenix, Arizona, from these other

churches that are in Manhattan and other places.

It might be a more difficult thing to make a broad statement because you're talking about many different kinds of churches, but if you could,

both Andy and Gary.

So I'll just, I think

that with one, I would really

speak to it on a case -by -case basis, based on, but I also have a very limited understanding of

many of the churches, but I've also had a number of very troubling conversations with many pastors

across churches.

I would say, it is a

gospel preacher that seems to be away from Scripture.

Just one quick note on that.

No, we've heard enough for you, Gary.

I'm just kidding.

I told you.

Regarding the second part, especially how should we treat these churches, again, I said this earlier in the program, it's

not necessarily about where a church is, it's about where a church is going, what direction it's headed.

The healthiest church, 15 ,000 marks of a healthy church, but if it's

going in an unhealthy direction, you're almost, it's hard of how you're going to

treat it.

It's dicey whether or not you're going to treat it as a, likewise, you could have a church that has

just been horrible leadership for decades, but you have a final pastor and leadership that want to move in a

gospel center.

I would say, look, focus less on the existing state of the church.

I would say the most important part is, do the pastors and leadership of the church want to move in a

direction that conforms to Scripture?

If they do, they are 100%, almost 100 Church of Christ,

even if they're unhealthy at the time.

If they very stubbornly do not want to move in a direction of what,

then I have no.

Assurance.

It won't be.

Yeah, we have to be very careful about

being slanderous against churches that are genuinely a true church, who have the true gospel and a

true understanding of who God is.

But at the same time, there are many churches that have eclipsed the gospel with other

issues.

There are even churches that are conservative that I believe have adopted

their own version of a social gospel.

It used to be the liberals that championed a social gospel, but many conservatives believe

that if you are pro -life and you are against same -sex marriage and you vote Republican

or conservative, that you're a Christian, and they will include sometimes even Mormons in that category, and

that's absolutely insane.

Even though those are all things that I would think, as far as being pro -life

and being opposed to same -sex marriage, I think it is required of a Christian to believe that way.

But at the same time, believing that and being active in politics and being active in all kinds of

social causes like that, that does not make you a Christian.

Agreed.

And I would like, Andy, if you could start by giving a minute of summary, what

you'd like to leave our listeners with today,.

And then Gary you could follow.

Yeah.

So just like on anything, like a minute of

talking?

Well, a minute of summary about this topic, and we can have you back again to discuss this

topic.

Okay, so we should make Jesus' mission our mission, and he said that his mission was he would build his

church, and he told us to go and make disciples of all nations and to teach them all things that he's commanded

us.

So he said he'd be with us as well, even to the end of the age.

He's promised us that there will be suffering, there will be persecution.

Don't be surprised by it, and that a thousand persecutions that we enter the kingdom.

So don't be alarmed or dismayed when a

lot of people turn against you, but also don't intentionally bring on persecution through your own

stupidity or arrogance or foolishness or whatever.

All right, Gary, do you

have anything.

To say in about 30 seconds' time now, because we're rapidly running out of time?

I'm known for.

Being concise.

Ultimately, scriptures say that God will build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail over it.

That is a promise.

God fulfills his promises, so if you do, if you build a church that is according to what scripture says, even if it is in a

liberal urban center, which hopefully we'll talk about more perhaps another time, or whether you are in the heart of an unreached people,

if you are faithful to the gospel, God will bring fruit, people will be saved, God's name will be glorified, even if you are dead and put

in the ground without seeing a.

Single convert.

Amen, and if anybody wants to

visit New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan, go to ncc

.nyc, ncc .nyc.

Also, please, I'm begging all of you to come to the free New York City Bible Seminar

featuring guest speaker Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary on July 6th,

630 p .m. to 10 p .m. on the corner of 79th and Broadway in Manhattan, and you

can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have questions.

I want to thank my guests Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt for being on the program today.

I want to thank all of you, especially those who wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives

that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

I hope you all have a very blessed, safe, and happy weekend and Lord's Day.