June 23, 2018 Show with Andy Woodard & Gary Rosenblatt on “Challenges Faced Being a Biblically Faithful Church Plant in a Liberal Urban Center”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 22nd day of June 2018 and I'm so delighted to have two guests on today, one a returning guest who technically was actually a co -host once before on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and one who is a first -time guest or a first -time appearance, making a first -time appearance in any way on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The first being Andy Woodard who is lead pastor at New Covenant Church, New York City located in Manhattan and also

Gary Rosenblatt who is a treasurer and a preacher along with Andy at New Covenant Church, New York City in Manhattan and today we are going to be addressing challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center and we're also going to be announcing the free

New York City Bible Seminar featuring guest speaker Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary which is going to be held in Manhattan at the

First Baptist Church of New York City where we are renting the facilities on Friday, July 6th, 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m. That church happens to be on the corner of 79th and Broadway in Manhattan but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt.

Thank you Chris it's great to be here as well it is a pleasure. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com that's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I can readily understand why this topic might lend itself to people being intimidated to be public about their opinion because they may be in a church that has some of the character flaws that we are going to be seeking to refute or critique today so we can understand that person like that might want to remain anonymous a person who's even a pastor who disagrees with his own congregation or fellowship or denomination over this over these issues that we're going to be addressing might want to remain anonymous but if it's not a personal and private matter please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Well I am going to start the way I normally do when

I have first -time guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I have them each give a abbreviated version of their salvation testimony what kind of religious upbringing they had as a child if any and what providential circumstances our sovereign lord brought into their lives that drew them to himself and saved them and we are going to start with Andy Woodard if you could please let us know how our lord saved you.

Obviously everybody is saved in one way by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and his shed blood but there are different there are many different providential circumstances in everyone's lives that brought people to the saving knowledge of Christ so if you could start

Andy. Thanks Chris. I was raised in a born and raised in a

Christian home a pastor's home actually and both of my parents were born and raised in pastor's homes so the

Christian influence goes back quite a ways I think there's actually a third or fourth generation of pastors as well that go back to the extended grandparents but our family had family worship memorizing scripture on the breakfast table and then we would read the bible and pray together each evening and that was just normal life for me it was all

I'd really ever known but those practices and being in church every time the doors were open

Sunday morning Sunday night and Wednesday night that in and of itself was not enough to save me I made a profession of faith as a very very young child because it seemed like the thing to do everyone else was a

Christian and I didn't want to be left out sort of thought as fire insurance that if I would say the sinner's prayer or say these magic words then

I would be good to go and be assured of so I prayed the sinner's prayer when

I was around age three and it was it was not real it was definitely based on false motives and the

Holy Spirit was not was not in that I was baptized a few years later as a false convert and again same type of reasoning my parents had a rule that was we couldn't take communion unless we'd been baptized which now

I look back on it and I think that was definitely the right decision however I saw everyone else in the church taking communion and I didn't want to be left out so I said let me get baptized and just harassed and harangued them until I was able to be baptized a couple years later then around age nine or ten the

Holy Spirit really started begin convicting uh really began convicting me of my sin and my lostness and um my father's preaching was not the uh typical uh fire and brimstone of the uh independent

Baptist traveling preachers that were coming through my father was an independent Baptist pastor but he just faith faithfully exposited scripture and um through the course of that the

Holy Spirit was convicting me of my sin I resisted the Holy Spirit for months and weeks on end for weeks and months but then um in February we had a guest evangelist come through um speaking in our church and I went to the back for the children's service because I was like nine and uh the evangelist's wife was teaching the lesson and at the end she gave a very simple gospel presentation and said if you're not saved you need to get saved and um no pressure no no nothing like that just very matter of fact and I remember standing there thinking that's that's my issue my problem is

I'm not saved it's not just a lack of assurance which was kind of a buzzword at the time but it was lostness but again

I felt as though I had an image to uphold as the pastor's kid because you live under massive pressure as a pastor's kid um but so I didn't say anything and I went home as I'd done for every other time

I felt the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin and lostness and I tried to go to sleep again as had happened every

Sunday and Wednesday night for the last several months and um was terrified as I lay there in bed and felt as though if I were to die

I would be lost and go to hell which is true and um then eventually

I came to a point where I decided you know it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or what my parents have to say I'm going to go wake them up and tell them that I'm lost and I need to be saved and so um

I went and woke my mom up in the middle of the night for what was probably the third or fourth time doing this and told her it's not that I just don't feel saved it's that I'm not saved and so again

I prayed the same sinner's prayers that I'd prayed years before but this time the reality was that the

Holy Spirit had been convicting me of my sin and drawing me to himself in genuine faith instead of hypocrisy or a desire to fit in or be part of the the in club so to speak um teen years were fairly standard kind of run -of -the -mill not terribly eventful um except for that when

I was 17 years old uh through the influence of my trumpet teacher I got involved in or he gave me a book on the doctrines of grace and he gave me that book and said this will change your life if you read it and it did and it did change my life and then

I went off to college to study for ministry and during the the end of freshman year we were talking about baptism and I realized that I believed in believers baptism and therefore

I needed to be baptized because I had not been baptized as a believer so I contacted my dad and asked if I could be baptized at the end of uh the end of freshman year my first Sunday back at home but only if I could get my test 20 first because I'd never heard or seen anyone do that but I knew that I needed to do that so um when

I got home I was baptized in May of 2010 at age 19 um so that's my salvation and baptism testimony and before we move on to uh

Gary Rosenblatt tell us how you knew that the Lord put a call upon your life to become a minister yeah um it was kind of a growing thing uh started out when

I visited uh Bible college and sat in on some classes and I realized that right now at this moment

I can sit in this class learning about ministry while my other friends are in English history math science but we're here learning about the

Bible learning about God and I thought that was the coolest thing um but I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a

Bible major with a music minor or a music major with a Bible minor uh so I started with the

Bible major and the music minor and then uh talked to my voice teacher at the end of freshman year asked if he thought

I was good enough to be a music major and he said uh probably not so I stuck with the

Bible major and um then just got involved in in a church um and through serving in the church um my gifts for ministry began to grow and be tested and get opportunities and experience and um yeah then eventually the church sent me to New York and yeah

I don't want to jump ahead of myself too much but other call to ministry is is absolutely vitally connected to the local church and the recognition affirmation of the local church great and uh

Gary Rosenblatt if you could give us your personal testimony of salvation as well surely so I was unlike Andy not raised unlike Andy I was not raised in a

Christian home um my dad is Jewish which you may or may not be able to tell from my last name of Rosenblatt and my mom was

Catholic and it was decided when myself and my sister were born that we would be raised as Catholic so from a young age through probably eighth grade so that's about 12 or 13 years old

I was attending Catholic school once maybe twice a week kind of going through the motions and I was a an evil and wicked child even though I'm sure my parents would not say that looking back from a

Christian perspective it's acute that essentially I was my own God I wanted nothing to do with the supernatural and essentially going through Catholic school or at least those specific one

I went through the Bible was almost never taught we almost never learned anything about Jesus Christ we just learned about the traditions of the church and a lot of the people that were there even the teachers it was abundantly clear that they didn't enjoy what they were teaching there was essentially very little reason for me to get on board with any of it but because I didn't want to go to hell and I viewed

God is sort of a evil guy sitting in the clouds just waiting for you to mess up so he could hurl a lightning bolt at you

I progressed and finished the whole if you will

Catholic regime got my confirmation around age 13 and at that point

I figured well I'm done with religion as long as I don't commit murder or anything absolutely heinous

I'm probably going to go to heaven and it was a few years it was actually two years later

I actually befriended a group of Christians in high school in 10th grade and I did not know that they were

Christian at the time but they ended up inviting me to the Christians club at our school my high school on Long Island as well as the youth group to their church oh no where was this on Long Island because I was raised on Long Island I was uh so I went to elementary school middle school and high school in Syosset oh wow been to must

I have been to Syosset many many times yeah if anyone listening has not been to Syosset you are not missing too much my apologies to all my listeners there were a few uh good restaurants there uh at least years ago

I remember so there was one restaurant by the Syosset train station that legend has it Billy Joel based scenes from an

Italian restaurant off of I could believe that because he was from Oyster Bay so I believe that so it is possible but there's also like five other restaurants that have that same claim

I remember there was a place Cafe Testarossa in the 90s yes that's still there oh wow and I remember

I had uh I orchestrated James White's very first debate with a

Muslim at the Bible Baptist Church or the let me see what was it called

I think it was called the Bible Baptist Church of Syosset yes and it doesn't exist anymore it's another church now but I know exactly the building it's in and where it is right

I know I think it's basically just the name changed I think it's still in the Conservative Baptist Association if I'm not mistaken uh

Shelter Rock Church correct yes yeah yeah that's I think it's still in the CBA but back then back then the pastor was uh reformed uh and he actually was a missionary uh on the staff at Charles Stanley's church there in Georgia and he got himself into trouble when he preached on the doctrines of grace when

Dr. Stanley was away on vacation and it turned and he told me that the the person who ran the tape room a lot of people might not even know what tapes are these days who are listening if they're a lot younger than me but uh the the recording room where people purchased the recordings of the sermons apparently the person running that room said that there were more orders for this pastor's uh sermon on the five points of Calvinism or on unconditional election whatever it was then they had had in years the real question is did he get invited back no he was actually barred from the pulpit uh for the remainder of this uh living uh in Georgia or for the remainder of his being a member of that church and but anyway he uh

James White debated Hamza Abdul Malik at the Bible Baptist Church of Syosset and uh that was his first Muslim debate but James doesn't call that his first Muslim debate because James knew very little about Islam at that time and he uh defended the deity of Christ rather than um refute any specific

Muslim teachings so he doesn't really consider that his first Muslim debate

I do because I orchestrated it but anyway it was an interesting it was an interesting event because uh as I said uh

James and I uh knew little about Islam at that time and all of a sudden right during the middle of the the debate uh dozens of these

Muslim men stand up and leave the room leaving their baggage behind so it was quite unnerving what the heck is going on here and what it turned out to be is they were going into another room to pray and bow to Mecca uh so but anyway uh you could probably find that somewhere at aomin .org

that's a -o -m -i -n .org the Alpha and Omega Ministries website I'm sure that they have that recording or video available but anyway

I interrupted you I'm sorry that's okay stories are usually fun well if you want to pick up where you left off yeah so where do

I leave off uh right I grew up in Syosset so the so Syosset high school was the

Christian it was called basic brothers and sisters in Christ was the Christian club at the school that these friends in 10th grade invited me to and the church is actually a

Chinese church in Hicksville called Long Island Abundant Life Church yes I've been there uh they were church of the week on WMCA radio when

I worked there and I represented the radio station WMCA 570 am at that church

I remember did you go to the English or Chinese service I went to an English service uh but uh everyone there other than me was a

Chinese American and actually there's one other Caucasian American who was the song leader it's similar when

I went there so I was the only Caucasian person amongst a sea of beautiful Chinese people and I was there in 10th grade and I'll always remember this that the very first youth group that I ever attended on a

Friday night at that church in 10th grade I sat through what the teaching was I don't remember what the teaching was on to be honest but I remember that afterwards well one is

I was struck by the genuineness of the worship of these well I can call them kids now but they were my age back then that it was the first time in my life

I had ever seen people sing praises or do any act of worship that seems genuine as if they were not pressured into it but actually enjoyed it and that it's almost as though what they were singing was real and afterwards

I spoke to the youth pastor at the time about my background how I ended up there the friends the three or four friends who brought me and it was my very first time

I think ever talking to a protestant pastor and he concluded the conversation by saying that's great but if you don't believe in Jesus you're going to go to hell as my first conversation

I ever had with a pastor and something about the way he said it or something about what he said the spirit was at work and I knew that he was there was something true there so through 10th and 11th grade

I continued sporadically to attend our school's christian club as well as our as well as the church's youth group and then senior year of high school there was a new youth pastor and I developed a very close friendship and relationship with him and he was a great teacher still is he's a missionary in Thailand right now and it was really through the course of 12th grade me being under his wing him being a good friend a good teacher good mentor that ultimately culminated in my conversion at the end very very end of my senior year of high school

I believe the date was June 7th 2011 and not everyone can put a date to when they were born again but I was leading praise at a christian conference on Long Island and if you're following the logic yes

I was not a believer I was leading praise for a conference in 2011

Kaya come as you are and during one of the songs there was a few minutes that we were doing a interlude and everyone was doing a silent prayer and it was in that interlude that the presence and reality of God became palpable and powerful and real to me in a way that it had never manifested itself before I didn't see any you know

I didn't see the son of man descending from the clouds hahaha if you did

I would start to doubt your testimony immediately but I could feel for the very first time spiritually that my five senses actually spiritually my five senses had actually been awakened and that this

God whom I had been trifling with was genuinely real and I like that little slip of the tongue that your five points were brought to life or however you said that when

I was converted I didn't even know what Calvinism I didn't even know what I probably didn't even know what race was to be honest

I probably couldn't even define that but after I was converted very very end of high school

June of 2011 I made I realized that I was going off to college and I decided that I could either pursue grades girls or God the three

G's by God's grace he moved me to pursue himself and his son at the college that I went to so that even though I studied finance at my undergraduate school the joke is that I I studied the bible when

I was there because by God's grace I was I read a lot prayed a lot was sat under the teaching of many teachers while I was there

I was able to lead bible studies with many students be involved in the fellowship there and that's kind of where most of my growth happened naturally it was the first four years

I was a Christian and it was in a setting that was honestly God -ordained tailored for well praise

God building the foundation of the Christian that I currently am today well praise

God and by the way do you are you familiar with Syosset gospel church in Syosset so yeah so Mike Steffens if you're listening hi if your dad

Paul or Ed are also listening hello Syosset gospel church is after I graduated from college

I went to Long Island for two years before moving to Manhattan that's where my family is from and I attended

Syosset gospel for almost two years and became very good friends with the two pastors

Paul and Mike Steffens as well as a couple other folks in the church among whom probably listening

Ed actually don't know how to pronounce your last name Jacqueline well yeah

I've known Pastor Paul Steffens for many years going back to the 90s he attended many of my

Long Island pastors luncheons that I began in I believe the early 90s my late wife

Julie was the one who came up with the idea to treat pastors to lunch a week or two before Christmas every year she said since I know so many pastors that I have more friends that are pastors than anybody she had ever met and she said why don't we instead of giving each other gifts for Christmas use that money to treat your friends your pastor friends to a lunch and I began doing that we had a speaker every year we gave away books that were donated to Christian publishers could donated by Christian publishers and Pastor Steffens used to come to many of those and then it grew to such a large event that I had to get corporate sponsorship to help me fund the events but I have not yet met

Michael unless I met him when he was a little boy and don't remember but I've heard wonderful things about Michael in fact

I've heard that he is a fellow believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace he very much is he is a wonderful brother amen that was always a little bit of a bone of contention with his dad and I because his dad was a

Wesleyan and is perhaps still I'm assuming but yeah but a wonderful man though very nice man and always enjoyed his company and fellowship in fact he was a client of mine for a while he had a radio program that I sold him on a radio station but anyway now

I'd like in fact I'm going to go to our first break right now and when I return I'm going to have first of all

I'm going to have Andy Woodard give a little description of New Covenant Church NYC and of course

Gary you could add anything to that if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n gmail .com and please give us as always your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back with Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt of New Covenant Church NYC right after these messages from our sponsors we look forward to hearing from you.

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa and pastor andy woodard if you could begin now with a description of a new covenant church nyc which is located in manhattan tell us how long ago this church plant came into existence and some of the particular character traits of this this congregation yeah so we are approaching the one year mark of beginning sunday services we began uh bible studies a year ago in um in june and then we shifted those over to sunday in july on july 2nd so uh july 1st will actually be the one year mark uh that's a sunday um we started with three people and um then we've been slowly adding about one person per month on average some months we do and then other months we don't then we'll have a month where we add two people and uh so it's kind of just slowly plodding along um we came into existence uh well before before planting a new covenant um originally in 2014 i moved to new york because my college church uh sent me and another church here in new york called me so they sort of worked together to get me connected with the ministry here in new york so i moved to new york to work for a church and did that for a couple years and um while i was doing that i was studying online through southern seminary and working on my master of divinity um and along the way kind of growing in my ecclesiology and my convictions about the local church and the ordinances and membership and baptism and all those things and um so kind of found myself going in a slightly different direction from the church where i was working so i eventually resigned and moved back to kentucky or moved to kentucky to finish my degree in residence um while i was there i received a lot of calls and letters and texts from a small handful of folks in new york asking me to come back so uh came back and my home church where i grew up in florida had uh agreed and voted uh unanimously to be um our sending church for the church plant and so um i moved back to new york and worked uh served uh with them and also worked for north shore baptist church in bayside queens during the summer as their summer music director yeah and ed moore who has been a friend of mine since the early 1990s i was one of his very first friends after he moved from columbia south carolina to new york and we became fast friends uh almost immediately after his arrival and have been friends ever since and he spoke extremely highly of you and not in any flattering way or a fake way or exaggerated way he uh in fact knowing ed he doesn't he doesn't toss around uh lofty compliments about people unless they are warranted and he certainly was uh singing your praises recently not in an idolatrous way but he was saying a lot of wonderful things about you and in fact he was hoping that you were going to be one of the speakers at the conference that we are orchestrating in manhattan but perhaps another day we'll do that yeah we we don't have the space for that uh the amount of time to add extra people um yeah so i had a wonderful summer working with uh north shore and um so much so they asked me to continue working with them and i had to decline because of the the distance it takes an hour and a half to get there from my apartment and um just wasn't something that i could continue doing and balancing the sunday services at their church with uh sunday evening service for our church plant um but i do hope to uh go visit them for their wednesday worship they have a a summer uh when midweek service during the summer and it's just a wonderful time so hoping to get back out there um before that wraps up i'm assuming the end of august um yeah so i worked with them uh one of the members in their church um helped us with the the legal stuff the incorporation and all that and uh our church got incorporated on august 9th and we had our first five verse covenant together to join the church on november 23rd so our church spiritually began november 23rd though it legally began on august 9th and um i met gary um when september october sometime in the fall i got this email from this this uh jewish banker who's like when's your bible study and uh so it was canceled it was canceled for the first three weeks and then uh it is it stayed canceled um then uh he eventually was able to come on a sunday and and visited and um yeah so that's that's kind of how we got started and um the lord has continued to bring uh more people along the way um let's see some characteristics about the church we are um we are what they uh jokingly call um the nine marks organization they they jokingly call nine marxists so we believe in the that's a very dangerous term to use these days for the very reason we're having this conference in manhattan yeah so we believe that there are certain characteristics that the scripture very clearly describes and so the church ought to put into practice so we we embrace those things and even really is a lot in in large part connected to the regulative principle that the scripture regulates the church and that uh we're not we're not left with the freedom to be creative to figure out what a church is supposed to be but actually we are under the authority of the word which tells us what a church is and is supposed to do and to be and why it's supposed to exist so um yeah so i along the way during my during my time in louisville i ran into um to a very wise godly veteran missionary whose name i think i will keep secret for his uh security uh concerns because he's done a lot of ministry in the middle east and uh he agreed to mentor me and help me walk through these steps and um so we started um the church under his um kind of counsel and advice as far as what to do but it's it's basically just taking the nine marks material and doing it in um in manhattan midtown manhattan um so we they've also added three more to it so you've got uh the nine marks plus three so we actually have 12 and call them characteristics but uh we are our reformed baptist church but uh i would say we're not a capital r reforms meaning we're not like a traditional 1689 confessional church not yet um i'm still a little up in the air on the definition of of um the sabbath or sabbatarianism but um i i would consider uh the 1689 to probably be the closest thing to uh where i am uh that i do i'm not entirely sure what we mean by new covenant theology these days but i do like the concept from what i understand it to be and i like it enough that we named the church new covenant church so um we're a reformed baptist church and our we we our definition of ourselves is that we are a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church to do what the church is commanded to do and we see 12 things that the church is commanded to do which are evangelism discipleship biblical membership biblical church leadership which are elders and deacons uh biblical preaching and teaching biblical ordinances which are baptism the lord's supper both being biblically regulated uh biblical worship fellowship prayer accountability and discipline uh biblical giving and mission so it's it's pretty basic it's pretty ordinary but i find that in its plainness it seems to be somewhat extraordinary um because it's it's a challenge to find um like -minded churches in manhattan that are that hold these same uh values whereas you can go to some of the largest pastors conferences in the country and find 90 percent of the people there would completely agree with all these things um such as like a t4g or shepherds conference but uh here in in manhattan it's uh it's not like that okay uh gary rosenblatt if you could now add anything about the church why you decided to join the church etc is gary rosenblatt there i am very much here um so how i ended up at new covenant i'll give the short version um essentially when i was moving to manhattan even before i moved i knew that there were at least two characteristics of a church that if you were looking them up on a directory or on a website you probably would be able to figure out namely that they were reformed in their number one they were formed in their theology slash materialogy and number two that they were a baptist so looking through the churches is right looking through every directory i could trying to find as many churches in manhattan as i could so that i could actually hopefully exhaust the category within the area that i was looking there are more or less about 11 or so 12 self -professing or at least in some way shape or form self -identifying reformed baptist churches in manhattan and ultimately new covenant was on that list but it it was less now how many did you say reformed baptist churches in manhattan did you count well what we're getting there um the number that i originally had on my list was around 11 or 12 i well you gotta tell me about those churches because i'm there i'm totally unaware of any of well you're about to hear about them so ultimately and this is probably a partly a segue and a throwback to the topic of today's discussion i spent several months both listening to sermons online through sermon audio and things like that for these churches visiting all of them for at least one sunday in person and most of the churches talking to the leadership some churches getting more integrated than others some staying for more than one week getting to know the people there and honestly to really support what andy said the majority of those 11 or 12 churches were reformed in their soteriology and were really baptist i think maybe one or two of them it was pretty hard to tell but in terms of major dare i say stumbling blocks that could be put in the way of the church it surprised me that over my months of visiting each of them that it seemed to me that there was at least some big issue with you know sunday after sunday after sunday at the congregations that i was visiting and i i was keenly aware of the fact that you know maybe i'm being picky maybe i'm just relying too much on my own preferences and not actually comparing these churches to scripture maybe i'm just comparing them to what i think i want a church to look like so after talking to several pastors both in america and several pastors abroad about right more in detail around all these this whole situation it became pretty clear that the church scene in manhattan was not what i thought it was yeah i when i when i first you heard you say uh that you had this list of 11 or so churches i thought that you said they were all reformed baptist and i think i'm mistaken about that i think i misheard you right no that's the interesting thing uh these 11 or 12 churches are all baptist or at least baptistic and they're all that they hold to reformed soteriology but when you are dealing with certain things that perhaps will come up late in this conversation such as some flavor of egalitarianism having women is uh preaching on a sunday right churches where they were right as per the conference they were putting certain social justice issues on the same playing field as the work of christ on the cross you have some churches that are completely focused on the unbeliever and they are churches made and tailored for the unbeliever instead of discipleship and building up the sheep of god you can keep going right and at least one of these really major issues not minor but issues that if the leadership wants it to happen and if the church persists in it it's very very very difficult if not impossible to call such a congregation healthy and right i understand that no church is going to be perfect new covenant church is not perfect but the key question is even if you have certain things about your church or your congregation that you know are not scriptural or biblical the key question is are you working by the help of god to renew your church toward the direction of the gospel towards the ecclesiology and what the bible says the church ought to be and the answer to that question through and through was not incredibly hopeful for a lot of manhattan so ultimately i ended up as a last resort i don't want to say it was definitely his last his last option and i mean because i my rationale because so i lived on long island and i went to school in upstate new york so born and raised in new york it would be very difficult to be closer to new york city without living there than i had been for my 20 something years of being alive and the impression i had of manhattan was that there were healthy churches there were you know sure it's liberal is a hole for the city but you know there are healthy churches and surely there is a remnant that god has i'm not saying that those things aren't true but when i actually came here i was very much taken aback as to what the reality of it is here and i suspect that many listeners probably have a similar view of manhattan and it's you know we're here to tell you that it's actually far less spiritually healthy than we even thought and i grew up more or less next door so with that mentality and kind of having my eyes open to the reality of the gospel in manhattan i naturally would put a church plant last on my list because i said there's absolutely no way i will end up there because surely one of these other churches will fit the bill so to speak so it was when i visited new covenant that i realized okay here's a church and i still remember i told this to andy on day one because he was asking me about my story and i said to him you're my last option and i really don't want to go to brooklyn queens or bronx for church but if you are not going to follow the bible i'm out i'm out the door and by god's grace you know it's been almost a year the church has been here and he surely has sustained us praise god and uh just want i know i'll be repeating this god willing later on but uh just for any of you listening who would like to visit new covenant church nyc whether you already live in manhattan or close enough to travel there or if you know you're going to be visiting there and i'm so glad that now when i have people emailing me which many over the years have done i'm visiting new york city uh next week uh do you have any church recommendations uh i was always having to refer people typically outside of manhattan itself uh just because i'm uncomfortable with some of the major churches that claim to be formed in manhattan and you are obviously aware of them but now i can very eagerly say well go to ncc .nyc

ncc for new covenant church dot nyc for new york city and we'll be repeating that later we're going to be going to our midway break right now in fact i'm going to read a question before we go to the break and then you guys can answer it when we return from the break we have larry from williamsport pennsylvania who he says is the home of little league baseball and uh he is a member of city church in williamsport pennsylvania and his uh statement slash question he obviously knows you guys he does okay because he says these two men have very strong views on the nature of the church i was wondering what particular books or teachers helped them form their views on ecclesiology and you can answer that when we return from the break and anybody else who'd like to join us on the air again our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com don't go away god willing we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of andy woodard and gary rosenblatt from new covenant church nyc on the challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center we'll be right back god willing tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

that's wrbc .us i'm james white of alpha ministries the new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible translation the nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known for the nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues from compact to giant print bibles find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com

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and click support at the top of the page but most importantly keep iron sharpens iron radio in your prayers we hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cbbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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hope reformed li .net their phone number is 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 right after that the the following friday uh july 6th from 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m uh at the first baptist church of new york city uh my guests and i are orchestrating a free new york seminar new york city seminar featuring dr tony costa who we just mentioned author and professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary uh he is going to be preaching there and the church is located on 265 west 79th street on the corner of broadway in manhattan's upper west side the first session that dr costa will be addressing or the i should say the first topic he'll be addressing is defending the faith in a post -modern society the second topic that evening will be the dangers of cultural marxism's impact on society in the church and the third session will be a question and answer session with the audience we are in the process of developing or arranging a intimate gathering of pastors for lunch that day so if you are a pastor and you'd like to join us at 12 noon in new york city with dr costa you can contact us but to contact us for any information about this event that's being held friday july 6th 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m the first baptist church of new york city on 265 west 79th street and broadway in manhattan's upper west side you can call the new covenant church nyc at 646 -770 -2282 646 -770 -2282 you can also email them at ncc which stands for new covenant church nyc for new york city info at gmail .com

that's ncc nyc info at gmail .com or you can email me chris arnzen at chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com please pray about this event please also spread the word about the event i'm hoping every single person listening who uh is a fan of iron trip and siren radio who lives within traveling distance to manhattan will be there and even if you if it's inconvenient for you to travel there if you can get there please get there by train plane or automobile we would love to see you in manhattan on friday july 6 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m at first baptist church of new york city on the corner of 79th and broadway then coming up not long after that is the fellowship conference new england this is being run by my dear friend pastor mac tomlinson of the providence chapel in denton texas but the event is being held at the deering center community church in portland maine that's the fellowship conference new england august 2nd through the 4th and the speakers include tim conway of grace community church in san antonio texas the aforementioned pastor mac tomlinson of providence chapel in denton texas pastor jesse barrington of grace life church in dallas texas and pastor nate pickowitz of the harvest bible church in gilmanton ironworks new hampshire if you'd like to join uh those folks there for that conference please go to fellowship conference new england .com

fellowship conference new england .com and please tell them that you heard about the conference from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio then coming up after that the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their annual quakertown conference on reform theology and i am going to be there god willing manning an exhibitor's booth that's going to be held november 9th and the 10th at grace bible fellowship church quakertown pennsylvania the theme is the glory of the cross the speakers include david garner ray ortlund richard phillips timothy gibson and carlton wynn to register go to alliancenet .org

alliancenet .org click on events and then scroll down to the quakertown conference on reform theology i hope to see you there as well and then uh coming up in january of 2019 i'm so excited to once again for the third time go to the g3 conference which is being held at the georgia international convention center in college park georgia which is a suburb of atlanta and i just love this conference and it has proven to be so valuable to iron sharpens iron radio in regard to the people that i've met that have encouraged me but also the new listeners who have joined the audience of iron sharpens iron radio as a result of being there the new sponsors who are enabling us to remain on the air through their advertising dollars or donations and also the new guests that i've had on the program it's just been such a valuable event and i hope that you can join me there i will be meeting a iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth there as well uh and i hope uh that you can come uh the event will be held from the 17th to the 19th of january and uh the uh the theme is on missions and the speakers there's a long roster of speakers of very prominent speakers and also some that may be not very prominent but they are still equally as powerful and gifted uh let me read some of them paul washer is going to be there god willing john piper stephen lawson vody baucom mark dever conrad and bayway tim chalice phil johnson josh bice who's the director of the g3 conference by the way it stands for grace gospel and glory in case you didn't know uh todd freel of wretched tv and wretched radio stephen nichols who's the president of reformation bible college the bible college founded by rc sprawl and ligonier ministries and more if you'd like to register go to g3 conference .com

g3 conference .com and then click on g3 conference 2019 you can not only register as an attender of this conference but you can also register uh to man an exhibitors booth just as i will be doing and if so if you have a church a power church ministry a business of some kind that you want to promote they're expecting over 4 000 people to be there so it's a very valuable place to have an exhibitors booth go to g3 conference .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and we are now back with our discussions with andy woodard and gary rosenblatt from new covenant church nyc in manhattan we are discussing challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center chris arnson at gmail .com

is our uh email address and before the break you may remember uh that uh larry from williamsport pennsylvania who is an acquaintance or a friend of our guests said these two men have very strong views on the nature of the church i was wondering what particular books or teachers helped them form their views on ecclesiology if you could gentlemen well thank you we're going to try and make our answers concise um so first off um christ died for the church he loves the church dearly and so the church should uh continually have a very high priority and we should be very careful in our uh thinking and treatment of the church and to remember that the bride of christ is the church and so we should treat the church like a bride and not um in other ways so um on our website we have a resources list which has a bunch of books on it so if you uh go on our website ncc .nyc

and hit on the menu um hit um resources scroll down there's a reading list um there's a section there on books so our general section on books nine marks of the church by mark dever church discipline by lehman membership by lehman the church the gospel made visible by mark dever that's a that's a very good one that's probably more comprehensive and is more um on a deeper level um don't fire your church members the case for congregationalism by jonathan lehman um going public why baptism is required for church membership by bobby jameson um what is the mission of the church by kevin de young and greg gilbert greg over what was my pastor this last year uh two years ago in um louisville kentucky um there are a couple other things that are sort of heart level reasons for why um i personally feel as passionately and strongly about the church um one is that from my uh time in class with um dr michael haken uh who's a fellow professor at trinity at toronto baptist seminary and southern seminary yeah he's been a guest on the program many times and i always love interviewing him yeah he uh he's uh he's there with uh tony costa and etrano um michael haken said in very clear words and he's he's a scholar of scholars i mean he's incredible he said very very clearly and he proved to us demonstrated in class that you can only baptize unbelievers into membership in your church for so many generations before your church loses the gospel that was a quote yeah that's a great great uh quote and that um that hit me really hard and realized while i love my presbyterian and gospel believing anglican uh brothers and sisters the the idea of baptizing unbelievers into the church and then them having uh some degree of membership or something of that nature is is uh a path we cannot go down and we cannot uh approve of as a church and historically that's just been what you call being baptist so um it's only more recently where i think the rise of the resurgence of calvinism uh where baptists have been um more hesitant to say yeah i'm a baptist and i believe that the only people who should be baptized are christians um also in light of things like uh even the nicene creed that says i believe in one holy apostolic church if you believe in a holy church that means you can't have infant baptism or unbelievers being baptized because unbelievers are not holy and uh gary do you want to add anything to that oh sure so i'll give a slightly different answer and he did um already trouble at new covenant church nyc just kidding no annie and i get along most of the time sounds like a marriage counseling session but anyway so i was converted like i said just before college and at least at the college that i went to the culture was something like there was an equivalency between fellowships and churches so if you were part of a college fellowship what was the importance of joining a church in fact my freshman year for most of it i didn't attend a church because i would ask folks usually upperclassmen why should i attend a church if i'm part of the fellowship and i really couldn't get a satisfactory answer because it seemed like the fellowship was doing the job of the church so i essentially went through college not understanding that the local church was even important i was part of a local church during my time in college but it wasn't until after i got out of college and so to speak got into the real world and became attended multiple churches that i started realizing that there was something wrong right there were churches that were not preaching the gospel and why was that and ultimately the real turning point was actually at fayetteville gospel church where i essentially went into the church knowing little and nothing about ecclesiology and the aforementioned uh pastor mike stephens essentially both through my personal experience at all the churches i had been to he started walking me through basic ecclesiology plurality of elders which i didn't even know what that meant deacons congregationalism whether or not a presbytery was biblical and all these concepts that i had never heard of before and he would walk me through a lot of this through scripture and obviously there were other books that i would read on my own stuff by you know some of the books that andy had already mentioned as well listening to sermons on the local church especially historically when the church was persecuted and hearing sermons about why it was worth it to risk your life to gather in the assembled congregation but ultimately to answer larry's question a huge part of it really was personal experience and seeing what churches ought not to be and experiencing it through many many churches but at the same time if i'd have like the book that really showed it to me was the bible which is not a cliched answer but if we really read that we get a flavor and a sense of how much god actually cares about the local church and how it is structured well uh thank you larry and by the way larry um since you're a first -time questioner possibly even a first -time listener uh you have won a free new american standard bible since you've written in a question today and please give us your full mailing address in williamsport pennsylvania so that cvbbs .com

can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to land trip and zion radio and we want to thank the publishers of the nasb for shipping us these free bibles that we give out to first -time questioners we also want to thank them so much for renewing their sponsorship of iron trip and zion radio without their advertising dollars i doubt that we barring a miracle could survive and remain on the air thank you pike lambeth and all the folks who publish the nasb uh we have uh francisco in uh abu dubai in the united arab emirates and i don't know how he what is he a prophet he says yes you read that right great job how does he know that well anyway he says i have a guess i have a question for your lovely guests andy mentioned that he liked new covenant theology enough to call the church like that could you please elaborate on your understanding of what new covenant theology is in comparison to its counterparts he really wants to bring controversy in today's show doesn't are there any particular books or teachers who you would draw from to inform your theology um uh sure hang on a second i forgot to mention another book that i think is one of the best books i've ever read on the church as far as relevance for us it's called church in hard places by mez mcconnell church in hard places by mez mcconnell um i i interviewed mez i believe at one point i can't remember what subject it was but uh yeah that that's just a excellent book so francisco is actually a uh part of our church here in new york he but he's from abu dhabi um so he's just giving us a hard time but that's okay so new covenant theology um essentially is i'm to hand it over to gary in just a second because i'm he's much smarter than i am um but essentially you've got a spectrum from dispensationalism to covenant and there's extreme versions of both and moderate versions of both and uh a million different ways of uh cutting the pie so uh my understanding i see new covenant theology is sort of a middle ground between the two but certainly more on the covenant side than the dispensational side um so we would for example be less comfortable with language like that there's a a covenant of works in in genesis though i don't really get too uh uptight about that um we emphasize two covenants old covenant new covenant um i mean we see all the covenants in scripture um we don't emphasize being sabbatarian we see jesus as our sabbath rest uh at the same time we we definitely emphasize uh the lord's day or taking a day to set aside to worship the lord um some authors um um there's a guy in pennsylvania that is an adjunct professor at southern seminary uh he's a pastor of um zaspul oh fred zaspul he's a friend of mine i've known fred since about 1990 yeah i believe he's written several books on this that are probably helpful i've never read them um i would just cite the book of hebrews as a good uh handbook on new covenant theology um and with that i'll hand it over to gary and shoot it okay so what the bible says about his answer well i do i do hope to one day again have a debate on iron sharpens iron radio between a new covenant representative and a covenant baptist representative uh we did have one years ago on the old iron sharpens iron radio program uh tom wells was a part of that and i believe richard barcellos was a part of that the only the only problem was that there was a very horrible phone connection and the audio didn't come out very well so i really want to revisit that especially since there's been much more of an advance in scholarship uh or at least in things in print that are available since then and i would love to have an updated debate that hopefully will take place uh within the next number of months but keep your eyes and ears open for that on iron sharpens iron radio and by the way francisco since you do live in the united states now give me your full mailing address and you also have you also have won a free new american standard bible compliments of the publishers will be shipped out to you by cvbbs .com

when we get your full mailing address and i also wanted to ask you and you could tell me off the air if you know my friend leon blosser who is a member of grace baptist church in carlisle pennsylvania who was a pastor in the united arab emirates for quite a long time for quite a number of years he was pastoring over there so i'd love to know if you know leon blosser but anyway we're going to our final break i already know that i think i want my guests back in the near future to discuss the topic that we intended to address because we're already running out of time and we really haven't delved into the specific topic of challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center so we will begin to dabble with that topic when we return but hopefully we can have another two hours to really try to focus on that topic in the near future but you want to join us now our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa don't go away we'll be right back with andy woodard and gary rosenblatt thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial consultant at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the thriving difference lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's solid rock remodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob walderman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and give me their name and location and so on we are now back with our final uh 20 minutes or so of our interview with andy woodard and gary rosenblatt of new covenant church nyc and we are discussing challenges faced being a biblically faithful church plant in a liberal urban center our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com we have an anonymous listener who says being a native new yorker and a christian i have noticed that there are churches who i believe know better who privately hold to biblical truths but are so frightened that they will lose members or not attract new members that they keep these things closeted it is very disturbing to me especially when those who claim to be calvinistic do this because they should of all people know that god will use the truth to draw in his sheep and also to maintain the membership of his cheap without resorting to gimmicks and to hiding the truth is the opinion of your guests similar to what i have just said that is correct and anything further to add thinking well while you're thinking i'm going to give our email address again chrisarnson at gmail .com

is our email address if you have any questions chrisarnson at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence uh well from what i remember from and in fact not only you andy in our private conversations but gary what you were saying on the air how disappointed you were by churches that you were visiting and examining uh that seems to be uh people are leaning towards political correctness even if that's not what that is really what their heart of hearts wants to do they're just doing it to be pragmatic and it's it's really infuriating especially when people who claim in the sovereignty of god over all things are doing that so i would actually agree to a degree but i would also disagree to probably a larger degree i actually don't right this is just my own personal experience but i actually don't think that a lot of these churches are being quite secret about them and if they think they're being secret they're not very good at keeping secrets because it's pretty out in the open you mean that they that you're saying that they are uh liberal or uh dabbling with liberalism and social justice theories and critical race theories because they actually believe in them they're not using it as a gimmick you you think that they are seeking to champion these things not all of them but i think it would be a generalization to say that they all know better i think from right from my experience of visiting a a lot of the churches that a good portion of them if not most of them it's not a gimmick it's not a secret they really believe it oh i don't think that either the listener or myself i know that i didn't think that they all know better but i think that in fact i have had private conversations with pastors whose names i obviously won't mention who basically are revealing to me that they are being pragmatic because they think no one will come if we do that or everybody's going to leave if we do that so i mean i'm not saying that they're all that way but i do know that there are that there are a disturbing enough number of brethren who behave that way to be pragmatic i think that's a fair statement all right well thank you anonymous uh and if you give me your full name and mailing address off the air of course you will receive a free new american standard bible uh compliments of the publishers if you could andy uh tell me why when we first started discussing the free new york city bible seminar featuring tony costa that will be held on friday july 6th 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m at the first baptist church of new york city on 79th and broadway tell me why out of all the topics that dr costa would be very capable to speak on you chose the topics of defending the faith in a post -modern society and also the dangers of the impacts of cultural marxism on society in the church um well i think the first one defending the faith is pretty self -evident but the second topic i think is particularly pressing and necessary before i get into that i just want to add an explanation in case we don't get to it later on we are strongly against racism and all forms of racism and our church is quite ethnically diverse um but we believe that um racial reconciliation as it were is brought about through the gospel and that if you abandon the gospel and you embrace um atheistic world views in order to attempt to um bring about some sort of utopian society that that is actually harmful for people so in an effort to love god and love our neighbor we believe that preaching the gospel and preaching christ is actually the best for our society for our church for the unbelievers and we're actually doing great harm and damage to people by embracing critical race theory and by embracing these these doctrines of the secular world that actually enslave people into world views that are antithetical and contrary to the gospel of christ and and i while i say that i believe that i think that we can see an example of a ministry that is putting into practice what we are attempting to put into practice at a church such as north shore baptist church out in bayside queens where they boldly and they truly are unashamed of the gospel and they preach christ and it's the most diverse congregation i've ever seen um and yeah so we don't think that we need to embrace um cultural marxism or social or critical race theory in order to be a friend of the minorities but rather if we preach the gospel that is what we must do and that is the most loving thing to do for the over 95 percent of new yorkers who do not know christ as well as for the five percent who who possibly may know christ that we must preach the gospel um i i did that answer your question yeah well our listener obviously uh can't speak to me so i don't know if he's satisfied uh but i thought it was a very good answer and uh by the way i just want to give a plug to north shore baptist church and bayside since we keep repeating uh very nice things about them if you want more information about north shore baptist church and bayside queens go to ns -bc .org

ns for north shore dash bc for baptist church dot org uh let's see here oh um that uh that last listener i think that was the uh anonymous listener wasn't it yeah i think so um we have uh julia in philadelphia pennsylvania the first time questioner your church is located in new york city one of the most diverse and liberal cities in the united states naturally you will get stereotyped in many ways including anti -abortion pro -life but not life after birth anti -women anti -lgbtq etc how do you go around accepting these stereotypes but also breaking them at the same time with biblical convictions of grace and truth i'll take this one um so to start off with i will affirm the reality that we do receive these labels by being and believing what we do in new york city um so i i don't work for the church full time i have a job within the industry of finance and i have been called some not -so -nice names for telling people certain aspects of theology that i believe whether it's complementarianism that men and women are created equally but for distinct different purposes um or again even the aspect that the gospel is what brings about reconciliation among people and as scripture says over and over again the gospel is what frees the oppressed the way that i think biblically we have to go about it and personally it's a struggle but the way that i go about it especially in the city whether it's people that i work with or neighbors in my apartment building or people that we talk to on the street is affirming to them that on the one hand yes there are certain truths that go against the cultural grain and that there are certain sins that are paraded around in society like you mentioned abortion being one so -called same -sex marriage being another and just really trying to on the one hand affirm to them with words that we don't think of them as less sinners than we are we don't think that they're worse than we are we don't think that because of their sin and because our sin is somehow lesser or better that god looks at us with any sort of favor we equal the playing field and say we're just as bad if not worse than you but it's through jesus christ that you or i can come before god and be forgiven because we don't want people to think that christians are better that's not the point the point is that we know we're sinning and we know we need to be forgiven but on the other hand it's also not just words but deeds in actually showing to these people that you love them so practical example is there's there's a particular person in this office that i work with and a couple months ago i was called a insert several expletives racist and that was what i was called and after a couple of months getting to know them befriending them spending time with them and praying for them and doing my best to preach but also love them practically they started to really believe that okay this gospel that you preach maybe it isn't just about a hateful god that hates humanity maybe it isn't just about a hateful jesus who's going to come and rain fire on the earth so in reality we accept these we do our best to not be labeled as such but sometimes we can't avoid it but when we do we try to preach to them that we're not better than them that the playing field is equal before god he is holy we are not that's end of story but also if you only love them through words and through the gospel and don't actually treat them with love and respect and honor knowing full well that they were created the image of god and that they too would make a glorious jewel in the king in the crown of the king of kings then the problem isn't with society it's with your heart because you don't really understand the gospel and that's one of the values we have at our church it's it's one more minute and then i'll stop but you're not bothering me uh you can continue but that's one thing that we teach at our church and it's very easy for us to say yeah we're against social marxism we're against social justice warriors and it's easy for people to hear that and think well they don't care about minorities or they don't care about anything of demographics they just want rich white people or people of the majority in their church it's very easy to misconstrue that and we tell our people that on the one hand if we want to love our neighbors then we have to know and experience the love of god and that's only going to come through the gospel so the preaching of the gospel what will most improve our love to our neighbors and if that love does not as james says overflow to good works towards them regardless of well not regardless but depending on what situation it's in and the problem isn't out there it's in the church and to understand that and to not just blame everyone else is also a huge part of it i'm going to stop rambling now well one thing that i i can say about why i am very opposed to critical race theory and the the rhetoric of the social justice warriors is because i believe racism is a damnable sin and they very often if not most often are guilty of it themselves they are using racism to combat what they think is racism when when you go ahead i'll say i'll go a step further and say that if we really look at the scriptures i don't think race is a biblical category no we're all members of the human race well we're all members of we're either members of adam or members of christ yes well we're not all members of christ but i mean if we're saying we're all we're members of adam or members of christ oh okay yes and yeah and um the the idea that is being promoted the false idea that if you are a member of a minority that has a history of persecution or receiving uh persecution as victims uh and you are not in a position of authority you cannot be racist is absolutely absurd because we have in the new testament uh the the clearest example of the rebuke of bigotry or ethnic hatred we the biggest example clearest example we have are the jewish christians who are being rebuked in the scriptures through the god breathed words of the scriptures through the apostle paul and others when the jewish christians were demonstrating hatred towards their gentile brethren in christ the gentiles the very people that had enslaved them and persecuted them for centuries uh the jews were taught they had no license to to uh have any kind of a negative opinion of the gentiles because of their ethnic backgrounds that was being blasted by the apostle paul as being a very serious sin so there you have a very you have a very clear example of this nonsense of you can't be a racist if you've been part of a persecuted minority it's revealing that it is nothing but nonsense and a lie and to flip it around in the book of galatians we see paul rebuking peter for showing the very same racism in church and that's just again to show that weren't we don't want to be silent about these issues in the church because paul was not silent about them jesus was not silent about them but the way we go about again combating them has to be the gospel causing us to see and experience and savor the love of god more and that overflowing to legitimate good works by the way i don't know if i i told uh julia uh in philadelphia but you've won a a free new american standard bible because you're a first -time questioner so please give us your full mailing address in uh philadelphia and we'll have cvbbs this show is doubling as evangelism to all these people that are getting bibles well here's another first -time listener who's getting a bible vince from phoenix arizona my question is should churches such as those that gary saw in manhattan be biblically considered not christ's church at all or would they be considered fellow churches but with serious issues and by extension how ought they be treated if the opportunity or necessity to interface come up this is a very good question in fact it's very similar to the question or the uh the fallacy i believe that both uh norman geisler and hank hanegraaff promoted and of course many many many many others that the church of rome for instance rather than it being a false church with some truth they claim it is a true church with some falsehood which i totally disagree with that's a it is clearly a false church with some truth and this is being expanded into a broader spectrum by our listener in phoenix arizona from these other churches that are in manhattan and other other places it might be a more difficult thing to make a broad statement because you're talking about many different kinds of churches but if you could both and andy and gary so i'll just take this one because i've had a lot of interaction with pastors on this i think that uh it's it's too too broad of a question to answer with one specific statement but that i would really um speak to it on a case -by -case basis based on but i also have a very limited understanding of many of the churches but i've also had a number of very troubling conversations with many pastors across the city um so some churches i would say yeah that's a false church that's not a true church uh but then others i would say it is a it is a gospel preaching church but the direction of it seems to be uh away from scripture just one quick note on that no we've heard enough for you gary i'm just kidding i told you go ahead regarding the second part especially how should we treat these churches again i said this earlier in the program it's not necessarily about where a church is it's about where church is going what direction it's heading it's possible to have the healthiest church outward it's possible to have a church with all 15 000 marks of a healthy church but if it's going in a unhealthy direction you're almost it's hard of how you're going to treat it it's dicey whether or not you're going to treat it as a real true church of christ likewise you could have a church that has just been horrible leadership for for for decades but you have a final pastor and leadership that want to move in a gospel -centered direction and that's i would say look focus less on the existing state of the church although obviously it's going to affect a lot i would say the most important part is do the pastors and leadership of the church want to move in a direction that conforms to scripture if they do they are 100 percent almost 100 church of christ even if they're unhealthy at the time if they very stubbornly do not want to move in the direction of what the scripture says then i have no assurance to say that it is a true church or if it is it won't be for much longer if they keep it up right uh we yeah we have to be very careful about uh being uh slanderous against churches that are genuinely a true church who have the true gospel and a true understanding of who god is but at the same time there are many churches that have eclipsed the gospel with other issues there are even churches that are conservative that i believe have adopted their own version of a social gospel it used to be the liberals that championed a social gospel but many conservatives believe that if you are pro -life and you are against same -sex marriage and you vote republican or conservative that you're a christian and they will include sometimes even mormons in that category and that's absolutely insane um even those those are even though those are all things that i would think uh as far as being pro -life and being opposed to same -sex marriage i think it is required of a christian to believe that way but at the same time believing that and being active in politics and being active in all kinds of social causes like that that does not make you a christian agreed and uh i would like uh andy if you could start by giving a minute of summary what you'd like to leave our listeners with today and then gary you could follow um let me think here thanks for not picking me to go first so just like on anything like a minute of talking uh well a minute of summary about this topic uh and we could we can have you back again to discuss this topic um okay so we should make um jesus mission our mission and he said that his mission was he would build his church and he told us uh to go and make disciples of all nations and to teach them all things that he's commanded us uh so if we he said he'd be with us as well even to the end of the age he's promised us that there will be suffering there will be persecution don't be surprised by it and that it's in fact through trials and persecutions that we enter the kingdom so don't be alarmed or or dismayed when a lot of people turn against you but also don't intentionally bring on persecution through your own stupidity or arrogance or foolishness or whatever um so take heart jesus has overcome the world um yeah all right gary do you have anything to say in about 30 seconds time now because we're rapidly running out of time i'm known for being concise um ultimately scriptures say that god will build his church in the gates of hell and i'll prevail over it that is a promise god fulfills his promises so if you do if you build a church that is according to what scripture says even if it is in a liberal urban center which hopefully we'll talk about more perhaps another time or whether you are in the heart of an unreached people if you are faithful to the gospel god will bring fruit people will be saved god's name will be glorified even if you are dead and put in the ground without seeing a single convert so take heart have faith and look to your final reward and the glory of our king amen and if anybody wants to visit new covenant church nyc and manhattan go to ncc .nyc

ncc .nyc also please i'm begging all of you to come to the free new york city bible seminar featuring guest speaker dr tony costa of toronto baptist seminary on july 6th friday july 6 6 30 p .m

to 10 p .m on the corner of 79th and broadway in manhattan and you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com