Dead Men Walking Podcast with Zack Morgan & Desi Maes of Provoked Podcast: Evangelism

Oh, yeah.

What's going on, Jason?

What up, Greg?

Oh, man.

We are so lucky.

Yes, we are.

So blessed.

I shouldn't say lucky.

Yeah, don't say lucky.

To have a guitar player like you so we can just make a new intro every time we want one.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, man.

Which we did just write some stuff last night to, I don't know, two nights ago, whatever that was, for

the book suggestions coming out.

You guys are going to love this tune.

Go check it out.

Book suggestions.

Well, maybe we'll review it on a different episode.

Yeah, we got those coming out in September.

Jason, how you doing, brother?

Doing awesome, man.

I am full of catfish right now.

Had some fried catfish for dinner and I had way too much.

I should have stopped before the third one.

Okay, so if you're not off halfway through this.

Yeah, yeah.

It was really good, man.

I love catfish, man.

Well, hey, you live next to a great lake.

You got to have some catfish as well.

That's right.

You know it.

Yeah.

No, I'm doing good too, man.

I'm happy to be back in studio.

We want to get right to it because we got special guests here tonight and we love it when we have people on

that we not only admire, but we listen to.

We agree with them.

They inspire us and we want our listeners to hear that kind of stuff too, because, you know, we want to bring value to you

guys and we want to bring people on the podcast that, you know, can speak biblically, that can encourage us

and all those things.

Tonight we have Zach and Desi, brother and sister duo of Provoked Podcast.

Hey, guys, how you doing?

What's going on?

Thanks for having us on.

Yeah, no problem.

We have 200 people in this.

Little studio.

Yes, we do.

They were all applauding you.

Exactly.

But we're going to get into a little bit more of what they do.

They're sitting in on our Newsy News segment.

And guys, feel free to jump in if you want to say something.

I might even put you on the spot, but we're all podcasters here, so you don't mind being on the spot.

Maybe even have a comment on it.

Jason, you want to do some Newsy News?

Yeah, let's do it.

Let's get it.

Here's our Tom Askew approved Newsy News.

News, the News, the Newsy Newsy News, the News,.

The News, the Newsy Newsy News News.

We got some news.

Oh, yeah, we got some news.

That's right.

If any of you want to hire us for voiceovers, we can do it.

We'll do it for you.

And now the news.

Go ahead.

What's our first story, Jay?

Uh -oh.

Autry Pruitt.

Only 28 of Black Americans 18 to 44 years old are vaccinated in New

York.

That means that next month when the vaccine passport law goes into

effect, 72 of Black Americans in New York will be denied service.

If you think voter ID is racist, you must also think vaccine passports are

racist.

Oh, no, not at all.

Not from the progressive left.

I mean, vaccine passports are totally cool.

Right.

Exactly.

Who cares if, what was it, only 28 %?

28 % of Black Americans 18 to 44.

62 % are going to be denied services.

Not to mention, this isn't just a Black -white thing.

It's every single American with constitutional rights being denied access to services because you don't get a jab.

That's insane.

It's true.

Have you been following the New York stuff at all, what the blowback has been on that?

I mean, I've seen a lot of stuff online.

It's been wild.

Yeah.

Have you guys seen.

It out there in Arizona?

Yeah.

What's going on?

Yeah.

A little bit.

It's tough.

This thing sucks.

Sorry if I can't use that.

You can totally say that.

Because we're pastors and we're just trying to help our people navigate through this insanity.

Yeah.

Because so many jobs are in jeopardy, in jeopardy.

And Desi can even speak to that.

But yeah, we just, you know, the Dems, you know, like they said, they weaponize this thing for

their own advantage, for their own power grab.

And it's coming to bite them in the butt.

Oh, yeah.

Because this thing has some fall out like they're not going to believe, like what you just mentioned there.

So they definitely bit off more than they can chew.

Unfortunately, so many people are going to suffer for it.

So yeah, it's just like that quote, you know, a generation that forgets history is doomed to repeat it.

I mean, I really struggle with like, having my having

my speech be seasoned with salt in this area.

Because man, I just want to be like, well, I'll just go back to school.

What's wrong with you people?

Right?

You know, I just want to say other things that are probably less gracious.

But yeah, it's frustrating, for sure.

And when you see people's jobs being threatened, and people being coerced and bullied into

an experimental, jabby jab, we don't want to say the words will get, you know, suppressed.

But yeah, it's just it's super frustrating.

I accidentally used the R word already.

I'm sorry about that, guys.

Oh, sorry.

Can't talk about it.

But no, it's so true.

It's so true.

And then it's just so sad that we have such a hypocritical double standard.

And it seems especially on the left and believe me, I'm involved in politics.

So I understand the right has their double standards as well.

But this is absolutely insane, that you could, you know, preach about these voter ID and all this and you know, people

of color can't get certain, you know, IDs, which I think is racist, or at least prejudice on

its end.

And now they're saying, you know, 62 of minorities not going to be able to 72, not going to be able to be, you

know, denied services, because you don't have your papers in order, like in Nazi Germany.

Well, I'm glad I have four shots already.

So I'm good to go.

Not enough.

He's a little dead man walking.

Yeah, right. Literally.

Where's the my body, my choice crowd.

We like over here is buckshot and bourbon shot.

All right, let's go to the second one.

Yeah, this one.

So this one's a little bit longer.

This is from Uncle Gary.

Oh, he's actually Gary tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah.

So we had a little bit of a comment response type situation.

Okay.

So the following comment caught my attention.

Do you also blame the Roman Empire on the present day rush towards globalism, a global

digital currency and a global government?

How does Nero factor into what you're seeing with your own eyes today?

I know you got a you're trying to protect but the that brand is as useless as a Weimar

Deutschmark.

So that's someone talking to someone speaking to Gary.

So here is Gary's response, which is always amazing.

So much action.

So here's Gary, I suggest you read Frank Gumer Locke's book.

I hope I said that right.

The day and the hour for nearly 2000 years of fear failed prophetic speculation.

Where does the Bible talk about global digital currency, global government, the United States, the most

powerful nation in the world spent 20 years in Afghanistan with no success.

Every attempt that a globalist empire has failed Egypt, pyramids, Babylon sure

artifacts in the British Museum, Greece, my wife and I visited the Empire's ruins in

2017.

Remember the Roman Empire like Greece, tourist attractions today, Holy Roman Empire gone,

the third right, a distant memory.

That's what that was supposed to be the end, right for Hitler, it was Mussolini, who

was the Antichrist, the advance of communism, what's left Cuba and North Korea, he just keeps going.

And it's just a great little response to what is going on right now that everybody's trying to use.

And times eschatology tactics, because of vaccines, because of what's going on in

Afghanistan, because of it's crazy, because the older you get, the more times you live through that, too.

Yeah, like I grew, I was born in 81.

So I grew up with my father, who to this day is still kind of a dispensationalist, pre trimmer raptors

come in, like when I was a little kid, he was like, you hear those sirens go off for the nuclear war.

Yeah, we're gonna meet in heaven, right?

He's coming to you in the sky.

It's like naked.

Jason, you always gotta make it weird.

Well, that's what they used to tell us.

There's a lady present.

I know what you're saying.

So So anyway, naked dog.

I just keep but my point is, is like your eschatology matters when I was younger.

I didn't even know what it was called.

I didn't have a label for it.

But I was like, is our things really getting worse?

Like don't we since the apostles?

Hasn't it just been like Christ can return at any moment?

There's been all this rise and fall through history.

And I didn't know that I was leaning like kind of post mill on mill without even knowing what it was as a young teenager.

And yeah, we just kind of see every time we see something happen in the world.

It's like, watch out.

Yeah, it's gonna get worse.

The tribulations come in.

And it's like, well, we know what Gary DeMar lands.

He's very futurist and you know, not pre Miller.

Yeah, preterist and all that.

So you know, what do you think guys is your eschatology important when it's like when you're looking at world events.

Like this?

Oh, yeah.

It's so funny when uncle Gary gets on like a your Facebook post.

That means you probably messed up.

I was I was just looking at somebody else's who said something about, you know, what's going on in Afghanistan.

And I was just super, you know, tons of posts.

And then you look down the middle and he there he is.

And he's contributing to it.

And everybody's like, oh, that's exactly the way we should be looking at this.

That's how we should be thinking about this particular issue.

So I appreciate the guy.

But yeah, I've, I've been a pastor in churches that were heavily dispensational.

And 10 years ago about and I kind of could see what that does, how it fleshes out

in the life church, because we're so concerned about, you know, getting raptured out of our clothes,

that what we do is we neglect the generational outlook.

And we also neglect evangelism.

And so what you would see when that type of eschatological system and I love, of course, we love our brothers and

sisters who do that.

This is a secondary issue, we don't have to divide yada yada, we all understand that.

But Jesus said wisdom is vindicated by its roots.

And I think you can really see a genuine ask a lot of eschatological position.

You know, if it's really biblically, it holds up in, you know, of course, biblically, and under pressure in

the life of the church, what is it doing to the people?

Are they?

Are they focusing on their kids?

Are they focusing on discipleship?

Are they building for the future?

Are they going out?

Are they being salt and light into the culture?

But what I experienced in these dispensational pre male type of environments where it was, it was

really moved to the primary issue, when I bounced from the church, and I actually bounced from my pastor, when

the pastor said, if you don't believe in the rapture, you're not going to be raptured.

So I said, that is a false gospel.

Absolutely.

You now have moved eschatological convictions into the primary category, you've added to the gospel, we got

to go, which is the best decision of our life, because we went from there to apologia.

And of course, we feel like we've come home to an amazing church.

But no, you're right, eschatology matters.

It's not a salvation issue, but it's definitely a sanctification issue.

It's, it's definitely going to have an effect on your productivity here as a Christian,

and whether or not you're going to make an impact.

So yeah, and what would be the, you know,.

I feel like what would be the motivator to pour into the next generation?

Yeah,.

Because we're gonna leave.

That's what we heard.

Hey, it's we actually had a clock.

And I'm sorry, if I'm taking too much time, we had a clock on the pulpit, and it was like dialed up to 12.

Because we're gonna go and we have these prophecy conferences where people were like, Hey, if we're here by October,

it's in 2015.

There's going to be millions of people upset.

And so yeah, that type of focus can get so wacko.

Yeah.

So not to offend your listeners.

We just believe it's doesn't have really good biblical background or biblical support there.

It really has an effect on the people of God in the local church that is kind of focused on it.

Yeah.

Oh, great.

For sure.

Amen.

All right.

Let's bring it home with the last one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So on this, this will go into our topic for sure.

But this is a note from missionaries in Afghanistan.

At the moment, we are praying desperately for friends on the ground in the house church movement in

Afghanistan, where the Taliban are coming after all Christians.

Their courage is immense.

Most expect to meet Jesus face to face in the next two weeks.

It is a powerful reminder right now of what matters and making every opportunity count for

eternity.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I know provoked have been covering this.

And so it's cultish, those guys out there, you guys have really been making sure people are hearing about this, but that what, what,

uh, wow.

Does that make it real?

Yeah.

When you're in real time, when we're over here complaining about, uh, our latte and,

and the, what the worship pastor war.

And, you know, if we even want to go to church because, Oh, we don't feel air quotes safe.

And that you just have tweets coming tweet after tweet.

And then even people who are tweeting, they're finding where they're at and going and killing them.

Right.

So, so the word can be stopped, but they're tweeting, Hey, look at, we expect to die within two weeks, all for Christ, all for the Lord,

all glory to him.

And you're just like, what am I doing with my life?

Right.

Like, what are we doing over here in fat, lazy, Western Christianity?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The scriptures say when the wicked rule, the people grown, you know, and, uh, of course we don't need to get

into, uh, Trump and Biden and their differences and that, but I think we can understand we do have a

wicked ruler.

Um, that's in charge of our nation and we're suffering the consequences of his

decision -making.

Um, and it'll necessarily get into the weeds when it comes to being in Afghanistan.

I mean, I believe that we shouldn't gone there, but I think, uh, somebody put it well, when he was talking about our

departure, the quickness of the departure, it's almost like you have an 11 year old child and you just say, Hey,

get out on the road, you know, it's time for you to get out of the house.

So I think there could have been a lot more preparation that went into, you know, uh, trying to value your neighbor

value life, you know, upon exiting or thinking about that heavenly before we exited the way we,

we did.

But anyway, you guys might think differently about that, but no God sovereign.

And, um, what God, and I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Scottish covenanters and went through incredible

persecution back in the 16th century.

It was so horrible and unjust what they went through, but God did use that to give us a picture of true

Christianity and how to suffer well.

So even though all of our brothers and sisters are suffering over there and we, you know, we wish we could go

rescue them in a moment.

God will not, uh, their death, their deaths won't be in vain.

The Bible says God, uh, you know, he values the death and the.

Blood of his martyrs.

So yeah, it's tough.

Yeah.

Cool.

Well, uh, is that all we got there, Jay?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, let's get into, uh, the meat of tonight's subject, but first, uh, can you tell us Zach and Desi, can you

tell us a little bit about provoke podcasts and what it is about.

And what you guys are doing over there?

I haven't talked too much.

You go ahead.

Oh yeah.

Uh, well provoked, uh, our purpose is to, um, preach the gospel

and to destroy cultural idols and to rescue babies.

That's kind of the, the gist of it.

So we just, we want to provoke the church to get out there and, and to share the gospel, um,

not only in the public square, but in their own, in their own lives at the workplace and their families and in their

neighborhood, um, to go out and to be that salt and light and to, you know, go out and rescue

babies.

Abortion is the, the preeminent issue of our generation.

And we believe that it should be of the utmost importance to go out and rescue these children.

Um, yeah, every day.

Yeah.

We just think, I mean, you look at the numbers and I don't, sometimes you're like, oh, where did these numbers come from?

You know, but the stats are an incredibly low amount of people, uh, Christian professing Christians who have

their theology somewhat in line, you know, they, it's just a minuscule amount that actually shares the

gospel that actually goes out.

And by and large, you got 400 ,000 plus churches within the greater American evangelical church.

And just people aren't sharing the gospels statistically and they're not being led by men

who equipped the equip them or show them how to do it out in the, out in the culture.

So we want to not ever, we don't really want to act like a parachurch ministry that's out from under

the accountability of the local church.

We're all about the local church.

We just want to use this to help provoke and stimulate our brothers and sisters to accurately share the gospel and their

sphere of influence deal with, you know, the evils of our day.

Like of course our good Christian heritage is not all throughout church history.

Yeah.

And defend the faith too.

That's a huge focus of our podcasts.

Yeah.

Awesome.

So I've always found, uh, when talking to other believers that actually going out, maybe like

street witnessing street preaching, those type of things, uh, can be very, uh, daunting to

even a mature believer.

They feel like I might be put on the spot.

I might be asked questions that I can't answer.

Um, so from, from your perspective, what is the, what are some of the main things that,

that one should do besides prayer and obviously meditation on the word of God and all those things?

What are some practical things to where we have a listener right now that goes, yeah, I, I need to do more of that.

I need to get out in my community and witness and preach the gospel.

What are some practical things that they can do to start preparing themselves for that?

Go ahead first.

Okay, cool.

Um,.

We got to know the, the true, like Schaefer would say the true truth, right?

The true gospel.

I think that's number one, you know, the gospel has been adulterated in the, you know, the greater American

event, the greater American evangelical church.

And unfortunately people are in spiritual environments where they really don't know the true gospel.

It's a truncated gospel.

It's a gospel, not about the kingdom.

That's a gospel about what God can ultimately just do for you.

You know, and it, it's robbed of its essential components.

Of course, the true gospel has indispensable components that need to be in there.

Like, you know, of course, God is creator.

God is holy.

Uh, the sinfulness of man judgment to come the law of God, of course, bringing home the

sinfulness of man in the heart of the unbeliever, as he hears a law of God, uh, the work of Christ, the response of the believer.

So I think what we need to do is understand what the true gospel is before we can communicate that that's

number one, number two, and this is tough because people message us all the time and just say, Hey, look, I don't have

any type of leadership that is training me how to preach the gospel and they're not going out.

And that's tough for so many people.

And, and the biggest problem out of all this, of course, and I'm a pastor.

So I could say this is, you got to point at the pastors.

We have to point at the pulpits.

I mean, we really need men who are leading well and equipping their people and, you know, bullet catching

leaders who go out and say, Hey, look, this is what Jesus has commanded us to do.

And I'm going to do it and not just tell you to do it.

And I'm going to teach you how to do it.

So for that person that's saying, Hey, how can I do it?

It's, it's daunting.

It will never not be daunting.

I think what's amazing in a church where your pastors are teaching you and leading you, like I said, from the front

lines is that that mitigates the fear and people feel very much more comfortable to go out and

they become equipped.

And of course, I'm just using our church as an example, and we're not the perfect church, but it's been so awesome to see our

people grow and begin to preach the gospel because they are going out and they're being led and

they're being shown by the leadership.

This is what it means to be a Christian.

This is how we obey the commands of Christ.

So a lot more can be said, but I would just tell that person, know the true gospel, get out there,

talk to your pastor about it in a loving and gracious way.

We don't want to be holes in China shops and go in and tell your pastor how wrong he is.

That's just not a way to, to win a person.

So you want to respect your spiritual leadership, tell him what the scriptures say and ask him if he can help you

do that.

Yeah.

That's where I would start.

Yeah.

I would just, just to add, I love what Ray Comfort said.

He said, don't pray for less fear, pray for more love.

You know, that should be our motivation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I used to live in Kansas city and in the middle of a

little area where there was about 10, 15 different bars, there was always a guy standing there

in a, a devil costume and he had a sign.

And, you know, it was like, I, I think I was in a little bit different area in my life as well.

I was pretty soft with what I knew of the gospel at that time.

I was not regenerated yet.

I would, I would put myself in that situation, but, but yeah, but I, I, I didn't ever

go up to him and challenge him or anything like that.

But I think I would say, I said a couple of things to my friends a couple of times, you know, like, man, that

guy doesn't understand, you know, what the gospel is all about.

And I didn't even really know what he was, what his, what he was actually saying, you know, right.

And, and I think my looking back on that, like, I wish I would have been able to

go into that situation and ask him and then be able to tell my brothers and

sisters that who, who I was with that I used to go to church with even at that time.

I mean, we, it was, it was such a crazy time in my life, I guess.

I mean, it was more of the deconstruction situation and the universalism and

whatnot, but, but yeah, I mean, I'm so glad that God redeemed me from that.

And I have, I have repented and we're all good, but

all that to say, I think whenever we hear about someone standing on the corner,

open air preaching, it all seems like legalism.

It seems like the guy that's out there is just got the heart of stone and he's just talking

down to you.

And every time I see one of you guys' videos on YouTube, on Facebook,

it looks like you guys actually care about the people that you're preaching to.

Well, it doesn't look like it.

I know you do care about the people that you're preaching to and it's just, it's just amazing to watch.

I mean, have you guys, I mean, is there a, a

challenging moment within, I mean, 50 of those, I mean, that we're not

seeing, is there just a lot of, you know, you guys just standing there, yeah, the pushback, or is there a

lot of just, you guys just stand there preaching the gospel and there's not, not too many people that will stop and listen.

I mean, like, what's, what's the response usually like out on the street?

I mean, I know I've heard about the Hebrew Israelite that spit in Zach's mouth,

but unfortunately I heard about that, but you know, like, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different situations that

happen in those, in those moments.

So I guess all that to say, yeah.

You just beat me with the longest question ever.

I'm tracking all of it.

I'm sorry.

No, you said a lot of good stuff, a lot of important stuff.

I think that's super relevant to this conversation we're having.

And I think the first thing you said was, and I'm so glad you said it because you said, when you watch us out there

that you see us speaking the truth and love.

And I guess when you're talking about difficulty and we can get into kind of external difficulties when it comes to the people, you know,

but the biggest thing is you got to keep yourself in check.

You know, we, we cannot bring reproach to the name of Christ and the way that we communicate the gospel.

We cannot not speak the truth and love.

We have to be loving these people.

And that's tough because we do it a lot.

I mean, we I think we calculated how much evangelism we do.

We're up into thousands of hours per, per year.

And it's sometimes you can get jaded and you're just, okay, it's time to go out to the mill.

It's time to go to the strip club.

It's time to go out and you kind of go through the motions when you really need to kind of war against that and make sure

you're speaking to people, you're listening to people, you know, you're, you're looking at these people, not just as the masses, but people are

who are going to stand before a holy God.

And you're communicating this in love, actually concerned about their souls.

That's something that I beg God for every day.

I don't want to just go out here again and just go through it because it's my job.

So that's probably the biggest difficulty when it comes to external stuff.

Yeah.

You got people, you know, cussing you out and flipping you off.

The funniest thing when you're, for me, as you're standing by the abortion clinic and just a hundred -year -old Grammy, like

flips you the bird.

I cannot not laugh at that every time.

So yeah, you've got stuff like that and people spit and then that just comes with the territory.

Maybe the difficult thing is when you have professing Christians coming out, you know, and saying you're doing, you're doing it the wrong way.

And in younger, you know, maybe nine, 10 years ago, I really was a little bit too, I guess you

could say maybe combative.

And, you know, now I kind of just say, well, if I'm doing it the wrong way, why don't you come stand next to me and I'll learn

from you.

Right.

And they immediately backpedaled and was like, well, wait, I just want to come out here and tell you, you know, kind of be that armchair

quarterback.

But yeah, it's just a lot of.

Experiences of, go ahead.

I was going to say, did you tell them.

Peter and Paul then did it the wrong.

Way too?

Yeah, I said that.

I said, okay, let's open up our Bibles because Jesus did it.

They here's the biblical example of how we need to evangelize.

And people would say, well, that's, that's prescriptive, not descriptive or discreet.

I'm like, okay.

Well, they did it all throughout Jesus's ministry, all throughout the book of Acts, Acts chapter, you know, two through four

through all the way down.

And I think a lot of it is because, oh, I know it.

It's just because the way that they're spiritually reared in their house of faith and, you know, the guys that they look at, it's, it's not

comfortable to get out there.

The more that you do it, the blessing of going out regularly, the more you do it, the bolder God makes

you.

And, and I guess the fear is mitigated with regularity and consistency.

That's just a blessing of being evangelistically active all the time.

But yeah, it's tough.

So hopefully that answered your question.

Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely.

So let's say we have someone out there listening once again, we'll play devil's advocate here.

And they say, you know, I just feel like it can get into a shouting match, like you just said, Zach, or it can get

combative.

For you guys, what, what's some advice you would give to on just being the most effective

when speaking to a non -believer or even someone of a different religion, which we'll touch on that in a minute here too.

When sharing Christ, obviously we're showing the fruits of the spirit.

We're keeping ourselves in check.

Is it, is, is debate good?

Is answering question good?

Is it just go up to them and start saying, Hey, this is what, what I believe and preach the gospel.

Is it a question and answer?

Like what, what is effective when you're on?

And I know all things are different.

You know, all situations are different, but what's been the most effective way for someone who's listening right now that goes, yeah, I need to

start doing this, but I don't want to be out there,.

You know, being a clinging symbol.

Right.

I say, you know, prayer, prayer first, you know, leading into that, just preparing your heart

and asking, like Zach said, you know, pleading with God for you to keep your motivations in the right place.

Like, why am I out here?

You know, is it to check this off my list of, you know, to do's this week?

Or is it because I actually have love and concern for the lost because I know that without Christ,

they're going to be separated from God forever.

Like, what is my motivation to be out here today?

And to just staying in the word, like the scriptures say, like going to them with a heart of humility,

like let's go and reason together like the scriptures say, you know, and, and thinking upon your own

salvation and what God has saved you from regularly.

I think we need to preach the gospel to ourselves and be reminded of that so that, you know, we do come into any type of

evangelism encounter with a heart of humility.

And, you know, for us Calvinists, knowing it was not of our doing at all.

God sovereignly chose us not because of anything we've done.

And so I think just keeping those, those theological truths in your mind and

in your heart and really focusing on them and just, just that compassion, just that love and, you

know, going back to the law to stop the mouth and remembering that God resists the proud,.

But gives grace to the humble.

Yeah, totally.

Just a couple of things that we could talk about this forever.

But the greatest thing is, yeah, just our theological conviction is, you know, Calvinists, we can, we

can sleep sweetly.

I don't know if you guys have ever heard MacArthur's, the theology of sleep.

You ever heard that one?

It's a good one.

It's just about evangelism from a reformed perspective.

And he's like, Hey, we scattered the seed and we go to sleep because we can't cause the seed to grow.

That's the work of God alone, salvifically and, and honoristically in the heart of a person.

So we could just, Hey, we spread the seed.

We don't bring intention to ourself.

We're not out there saving people.

You know, we're out there preaching the true gospel and that gospel is God's power unto

salvation.

You know, so that's the only way you're going to have longevity.

If you're going to only evangelize until you see people saved, you're not going to last long.

Cause that's up to God.

We just, we, we deliver the goods.

We spread the seed with the hearts, like Desi just said so well, with humility and passion and precision

in what we're saying.

And we wait and on the other side, we'll see who God saves all for his glory.

I think so many times churches can get wrapped up in fruit, quote unquote fruit.

And if we don't see fruit, well, we're not going to go preach the gospel when all it is, is it's trying to boast himself.

And that's just not the way that the scriptures describe evangelism.

We go out in first Corinthians chapter three, it says we're nothing in this whole transaction compared to God's

salvific work in somebody, but we spread the seed.

We share it in love.

And then all glory is going to belong to God when he brings his chosen to himself.

Right.

When it comes to different religions and my sister said this so well in the past, I mean, we just go out with the gospel.

You don't have to know everything you have to know about the Mormon religion.

That is a vast, vast, just abyss of information there.

And it comes to Jehovah's witnesses and Islam.

Of course, it's good to have a working knowledge.

So the person, you know, knows what you're talking about.

You add an apologetics.

I think Acts chapter 17 is where we got our name.

So Paul, he goes and he sees the city full of idols, right?

And so he's provoked, of course, because of what idolatry does to a nation.

It's the premier sin.

Anyway, don't want to get into there.

So what does he do?

He confronts that with the gospel.

And so in the evangelistic process, there's presuppositional apologetics where you're tearing

down every lofty thought, right?

You're answering the fool according to his folly.

You're letting him see the bankruptcy of his worldview.

And then you're building upon it the gospel.

So I would say don't get so wrapped up in putting people in their place.

We really have to check our hearts, even presuppositional apologists can do this.

It's all about just, you know, the nitty gritty and kind of semantics there of

apologetics.

We have to make sure along with that, we're building with a proper.

Explanation of the gospel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

And just I'll just tack onto that too.

And I will lovingly say this to anyone listening, you know, we have a responsibility to have robust theology

and to understand and to have knowledge about things outside of our belief system.

I really do believe that.

I feel often that I've met Christians 20, 30, 40 years in the faith.

And if it's not with inside their kind of what they've learned, you know, been taught or learned in the last

30 years in the pew, they have no idea how to witness to Jehovah Witness or to Mormon,

Seventh -day Advent, what's the difference.

And I'm not saying we all have to be scholars, but we have to have some type of knowledge of that.

Now, me naturally, I mean, I read atheists, I read Mormons, I, you know, I read it all across the board too.

I would love for them to prove me wrong.

Let's see a prove the Bible wrong.

Now I have a biblical reformed worldview and I haven't read anything outside of the Bible that would, that

can contradict what I believe the Bible says.

And I've read a lot of it.

Yeah, Bonson would be amen in you right now, man, with everything you.

Just said.

I would say too, though, just to not let that become, because I've done it myself where I'm like, I

don't know enough.

I, you know, I'm walking into this and I have no idea what, you know, all about Mormon theology or

whatever the case is.

I remember a couple of years ago, we had a protester that was coming out and I ended up meeting her for

coffee and just, but she was one of those people that just bullet you with questions.

And so before I was going in to meet with her, pastor Jeff called to pray for me.

And I said, Hey, I'm just, I'm just nervous that, you know, she's going to bullet me with all these, like, what about this Levitical

code, you know, just like your brain scrambling to try to answer all.

And he said, just take her out at the feet, ask her why she believes what she believes, where is she getting, what's her

foundation, you know, her epistemology.

Right.

So it's just getting to the foundation of where are they getting their beliefs.

And, you know, most of the time it's just their own, their.

Idolatry.

Yeah.

Especially within, you know, the Mormon world, as Dr. Wright would say, Pastor James would say, is you have to

teach Mormons their religion, you know, their own religion.

So, yeah, you're absolutely right.

You do have to have a working knowledge and it, this is a sign of respect to the person to where you say, I actually know

what you believe.

I don't know it all.

And I'm going to be humble enough when maybe you ask me a question that I don't.

Know the answer.

I'll, we'll get back to you.

What do you think though, about like Ray Comfort saying, cause people have asked him that too.

And he's like Jehovah's witness, Mormon, atheist, Satanist, doesn't really matter.

They need the gospel.

That's the balance of it.

If you don't know all those things, which I think it is beneficial to know, like, look at all the fruit that has come from

like Dr. White, you know, different apologists, but like when all else fails,

you have the gospel and that's the power of God into salvation.

Exactly.

God is doing a.

Transaction there spiritually.

When you make, when you answer the pool to his following, that's why he commanded us according to his following.

That's why he commanded us to do it.

God is doing something when you demolish all lofty thoughts, like Paul commanded us to do.

But ultimately, if you are lacking the gospel and all of its essential components, you're lacking that

explanation.

You're not evangelizing.

You're not doing it.

So I would say, yeah, we need that knowledge.

We need to have that working knowledge like you had just said, brother.

But if the gospel is absent, there's no evangelism.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,.

Matthew 28, eight or 19, go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and

the son, the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you

and behold, I'm with you always to the end of the age.

Amen.

Yeah.

I think that there's some urgency to proclaiming the gospel as well, you know?

And at times I hear about someone saying, yeah, I've been living next to

a guy for about five years.

Well, you know, have you shared the right time or just waiting for the right

time?

Yeah.

And, uh, and, you know, it's like, it's like there is some type of urgency there and, and, you know, some form

of the, of the word.

Um, you know, but it's like, man, um, uh, you know, even in Mark 16, 15, go into all

the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Uh, John 14, six, Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth and the life.

No one comes to the father except through me.

I mean, there's, there's so many ways to, um, uh, to pick apart how to,

uh, share the gospel, you know?

I think that, uh, there, there is just a reason to proclaim the gospel as well because of, of

what it's, what it's done to each of us, you know?

I mean, and, uh, yeah, I, I just, I just, whenever I think about what has

happened to my life since that time in Kansas city that I just described, yeah.

Um, I mean, it's like, I, I can't keep my mouth shut.

And at one time I did do the stage

cage.

I am very strategic now about my words as much as I can be.

Oh no, I was there and we laugh about it and joke about it.

I mean, I talk, you know, I pray every day kind of Zach, what you're saying to like have compassion and

not make it a debate, like understand why I'm out there talking to people.

I had a gentleman, uh, come to me and he kind of was giving me a compliment.

He said, you know, man, it feels like you got your life together.

You got a great wife, great kids, a great job, great business.

What are you doing?

Puffing you up while I was paying.

And I said, Oh, it's because I'm a horrible, wretched person.

What?

And I was like, but I have a savior.

So that's why.

And it was like, it just new different ways to bring people in and say, Hey, uh, I know who I

am in juxtaposition of who a sovereign, Holy, righteous, just, and wrathful God is.

And that's what really set me on the path.

Uh, you know, I've said many times on the podcast, uh, said the sinner's prayer at seven at my church got saved at 24 when

the Lord flipped me upside down.

Right.

And, and, and so, uh, this is so important, this discussion we're having because we do

have to talk passionately about it.

And Desi, like you were saying earlier, I wasn't trying to say you have to be a know -it -all either.

I totally agree with what you're saying.

If someone's listening right now and they say, I know who God is and I love him and I have passion and I know what he's

done for me.

Uh, and I, and I need to tell that to other people, please go out and do that.

And I would say like Zach said to do it with, do it with accountability as well.

Um, I'm not really big on these kinds of rogue actors out there.

Everyone's got a ministry nowadays.

Right.

And they have no, uh, accountability or no covering or anything like that.

Hey, be under your pastor, uh, and, and go out and preach the good news.

But I did want to switch gears real quick as we finish up here.

If I could just ask you a quick question just for my personal enjoyment.

So anytime I talk to someone and I tell them I'm reformed, uh, I get the robot, uh, argument, right?

That's the first thing I get.

The second thing I get is why even evangelize then if God knows who's he's going to save and who he is.

And I said, well, why do you pray since God's, you know, knows everything and don't even, you know, but what's the response you

might give or.

Outside of, well, we're commanded to what's the response you would give when someone says, and I'm sure you've heard it.

Well, you know, if you're, if you're Calvinist reform, whatever, and you believe in all those things, why even evangelize?

What's the point of it?

What, what would be something that you would give in a couple,.

Couple of paragraphs?

I can start if you want.

Well, one thing for you guys here, only easy questions for us in 30 seconds.

Well, one thing is it's not just about getting your ticket punched to heaven.

It's about setting the captives free, right?

If we believe in the severity of sin and that we're slaves to sin, we, and we love our neighbor.

We want to see them set free from sin.

Right.

Um, so that would be my first answer to that.

And then you can, yeah.

Yeah.

There's so much to that.

We could go in so many different directions, but I think.

We are our gospel proclamation from the people of God, um, is the means to God's ends.

Of course, he's saving his people and he's doing it through the vehicle of his people.

Uh, he looked throughout all scripture when God does anything, he mobilizes his own people.

It's just a consistent method of him accomplishing his goals on earth.

So it's staying true to how God does stuff in the Bible, but also, yeah, he uses the gospel

proclamation as the catalyst or kind of the, um, the medium or the mechanism of saving that

soul that he's going to save.

And it's a, it's an incredible reality and he does it.

And Jesus said this too.

He says, Hey, look, I've included you in my master's business.

So he commands us to do it.

And of course that's premier or commanded.

We show God our love by obedience to his commands.

And he does it so we can enjoy in the victory of it.

And the, and just the wonder of it, being involved in God, saving his people and bringing them to himself.

But also we're all post smell here.

I think we're all posts.

And, uh, you know, it's the, when we talk about things going from worse to better, or

maybe better to worse to better, ultimately Jesus is going to put all of his enemies underneath his feet.

Right.

Amen.

Ultimately we're going to see a massive, and I think we're even in the midst of it, just the spread of the gospel all throughout

the creation, saving and regenerating and renewing and redeeming.

And that is the church going out and preaching the gospel.

So we're going to see this reality that God promises us in his word, verse 15, of course, all throughout

the scriptures.

If we're going to see this reality, we are going to see the people of God with their mouths open,

declaring the gospel.

That's how it's going to happen.

Right?

Because you're talking about a world taken over for Christ is a world taken over by the power of the

gospel where the scriptures say we'll cover the earth, like the waters do the sea.

Right?

So you're talking about pastors preaching the gospel, teaching their people how to, how to teach, preach

the gospel you're talking about at that time before Jesus comes again.

Right.

And wraps this thing up.

You will see a global advancement of the gospel in the church.

So why do we do it?

We do it because of that, because that's the way God's going to wrap all this up for his glory when

he does it.

So it's just so encouraging because I get down, I'm sure you guys are the same way.

You're like, where are all the Christians?

Why aren't people preaching the gospel?

Why aren't we taking this seriously?

Like you said, exactly.

Perfect.

So we get on ourselves, but then we could just rest in fact, no, we don't know how long it's going to take.

Maybe like, you know, uncle Gary says it's going to be, uh, in the distant future, which I believe it's going to be

way in the distant future, but it's going to happen.

And it's such an encouraging thought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amen.

You guys.

Don't evangelize like Joel Osteen here.

Like I just, I'm very careful about saying who wouldn't, wouldn't go to heaven.

I just, only God can judge a person's hope.

Oh, you have like a throw up.

Well, we got him on, on Sunday.

He's going to be on, on Sunday, but, um, no, we

joke around, we pray for him.

Uh, but here's the thing.

There's also a righteous anger that bubbles up in me when I talk about wolves and sheep and, and, and, and like

blaspheming the name of God, right?

Do not blaspheme the character of God.

That's what he's saying.

Do, do not take my name in vain, all the character that's in principles and in the holiness and righteousness, and just

don't go out there and say something that blasphemes that.

And unfortunately we have a lot of people in, uh, leadership roles in this country that, that do that.

So, uh, the only way I can't, uh, stop from yelling about it is to, to laugh a little bit

about it.

So yeah.

It's scary, man.

I, you think of Furedic and Osteen and all the, a lot of them, I don't know how they sleep at night, other than the fact

that they can't be saved.

I mean, if you have the Holy spirit in you, educating you like the scriptures say,

and then you do that stuff, you live that way, you speak that way.

Um, uh, you know, it's, it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If I talked, if I had the opportunity to talk to one of those guys, I'd be, you know, as

humble and as calm and quiet and say, man, you are storing up for yourself wrath into the day of wrath.

Like you can't even imagine what you're facing.

I wouldn't want with what's headed for these guys.

I wouldn't want that on my worst enemy.

Cause you're talking about a judgment that is going to be meted out in a horrible way.

So I'm praying for them.

And, but yeah, you're right.

We should have a righteous anger.

You gotta, you know, as a pastor said, you gotta expose the wolves.

Are they going to eat all.

The sheep?

You know?

And when I say that too, I just want everyone to know it's not like I'm excusing myself.

Believe me, I live in Holy fear for the things that I've done in my life that I will bow a knee before and lay before God.

And he will judge me on those things.

So anytime we're talking about any one person, don't think we're excusing ourselves from that.

And sometimes continue still to be a thank God for his grace and mercy.

But yeah, absolutely.

When it's, when it's leaders in a position of power like that and blaspheming in the name of God, boy, is that, I don't know how we

got into the subject, but.

It's just scary.

Yeah.

We don't have to get into it, but, but Jesus did it.

He said, you snakes, you vipers.

He marked out the false teachers and it was all for, you know, the sheep.

So you can get away from the bad guys and go to the good, go to the, not the good ones, but the faithful ones.

Right.

It makes me think of Jonathan Edwards, uh, sinners in the hands of an angry God.

And there's a part when he talks about, you know, it's just the mere pleasure of God.

That's holding us back from basically just going to hell at any, right

into hell at any second, you know, and it's just, it shows us what a merciful God

that we serve, but that he allows us for, for his glory, but that should also

compel us to evangelize.

Yeah.

You know, and as Matthew Henry said, Christ is hated because sin is loved.

And that's the big picture, uh, that we're, that, that we see.

And I think, uh, that you'd go to when you evangelize when you guys do it too, you guys, uh, talk, talk about some really

big issues too.

Like, like you were saying, Desi, before we get caught up in the minutia of point by point doctrine in theology, when in

fact, pastor Jeff was telling you, well, just take it out at the knees.

Like, why do you believe what you believe?

Uh, where do you think that belief comes from?

How do you even think, you know, these big philosophical issues, uh, really helped to, uh, boil to

kind of boil down to the smaller issues instead of starting with those smaller issues.

Got anything?

Why we, uh, no, I think you said it all.

And I didn't let you, I didn't let you talk.

Sure.

I'm, I'm your, thank you guys for being on.

It's an honor.

No, we appreciate it guys.

Can you throw out social media and stuff like that for people listening?

So they forget.

Instagram, Facebook, uh, wherever you get your podcast, you can also go to, um, apologies to the apologies

studios, YouTube and Facebook.

So yeah.

Thank you guys for having us on and keep doing.

What you guys are doing.

Great.

I love your show.

You guys are perfect for this.

Yeah.

Keep doing.

It.

Awesome.

All right, guys, as always, we thank you so much for listening.

Uh, and as always God bless.

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