Is It Ok to Shame People?

It's worse to call them cowards Than for them to be cowards.

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The Consequences of Rejecting Christ and Living in Sin

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Is.

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Is It Okay to Shame People?

Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions. You're not allowed to ask. We're your host Harrison Kerrigan pastor Tim mullet and today. We'll answer the age-old question Is it okay to shame people now as we kick this episode off Tim?

What Bible verse do you have? related to shaming people.

Yeah, number is 1214 says. But the Lord said to Moses if her father had but spit in her face Should she not be shamed seven days let her be shut outside the camp seven days and after that she may be brought in brought in.

Again.

So God so if I'm understanding the verse correctly. Seems to be that God is explicitly commanding. They shame her right. Okay, so there. So there's at least so basically what that is showing us is there's at least.

Some.

Instances where it's possible for shame to be used for good, right? Yeah, I mean apparently to.

To yeah, I mean two instances in the same passage, right? So, you know the Lord is basically in her face and then kicked out right? Yeah, so like, you know in God's mind There's a situation where a father can spit in his daughter's face and she should be shamed seven days because I mean She becomes unclean at that point.

She needs to go outside the camp. So there's a situation God has in mind where he said that he thinks that that would be a reasonable thing to happen and then He's functionally doing that to marry him because of her rebellion against Moses.

So right, right.

Yeah, so so my suspicion is when you're asking this kind of question Is it okay to shame people is that most people their knee-jerk reaction is going to be to say no. It is not okay to shame people. Is that a fair assumption?

Yeah, I mean, that's generally.

That's generally the response.

Yeah, so so you ran a poll on this and what was that most people's response to the poll or was the poll?

Different. I mean we have a you know, we have a pretty unique art audience. There are certain points. So you never really know whether they're gonna come down with things like that. But then yeah, this is this is one of those topics where I think with the people who generally follow us.

They would think that there's some sort of category for shaming With that but then when the people react to it, man, yeah, they react to it pretty bad. So this is this is a.

It's one of those vitriolic response type things. Yeah, so so why is there such a big why is there such a big you know? You know such a vitriolic reaction when it comes to the subject of shame and specifically, you know, I mean, I think most people when they're talking about shame that they just feel themselves.

Right, like it's not it's not brought about by someone else necessarily, it's just shame that they inherently feel. People typically tend to respond to that in a manner this. Something along the lines of you know, hey, it's okay.

Don't beat yourself up over it blah blah blah, whatever but then when it comes to the the idea of one person Shaming another person for something that for some sin that they've committed whatever it is.

Then the response becomes you can't do that, right? And so so why is it that that there's that type of reaction when it comes to shame? When it comes to just shame in general.

Shame, Conscience, and a Romans 1 Society

Yeah, I mean so we're you get this reaction in two different ways. So one one of the ways in which you're gonna get this kind of reaction is you're you're getting this kind of reaction from the fact that we're living in a Society that is filled with shameless people.

So.

Satan obviously has a vested interest in removing the concept of shame and I would say that we're no longer really living in a shame Honor society and the way that we used to live more in you know. So if you just rewind the clock back a little bit we used to live in more of a shame honor.

Kind of society where this concept had stronger Connotations in general, but then we're we're right now like if you think about the kind of society we're living in right now. We're living in like a Romans one kind of society, right?

So and this isn't even you know This this isn't even related to sexual issues or things like that. But I mean Romans 127 says men likewise give gave up the natural relations with women. We're consumed in passion with one another men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

So, I mean like we're we're living in a society dominated by people doing shameful things, but then it's not even limited to the extreme kind of things that you might imagine. Like meaning like we're we're living in a kind of society right now where people will commit shameless shameful acts like exit people in the past would have been humiliated and offended by I.

Horrified at the thoughts of committing and we do them as a matter of routine and not only do we do them as a matter of Routine we glory in it. Okay, like meaning it used to be like you used to live in the kind of society Where if your home was messy.

You would be humiliated if someone showed up. Like unnoticed or something like that, right? So someone ran out. Yeah, they came Yeah unannounced to your home and it was a mess you would have been horrified and probably embarrassed and probably spend the next week.

You know breaking yourself over the coals for how much you've humiliated yourself with it. But I mean right now and we're living in the kind of society right now where we'll post pictures of it online.

Right.

Without any sense of shame whatsoever. You know, we're we're we're living in the kind of society where people will like where. Go out in public and where the kind of stuff that they shouldn't be like that.

They should be ashamed of right like they should have like you have the you have the ladies.

Yeah post in the Messy house the messy kitchen whatever. And then you'll have other you'll have other women come along and and say you go girl. You're doing your best. You're right. And and when you really sit down and think about it, it's like man.

That's kind of insulting. This is my best. You think this is my best. This is all at least I at least I don't know. That's that's probably how I that's how I feel. I would take it like I feel like this is definitely not my best.

Yeah, yeah, so we're at that point. We're at that point as a society right now. We're we're committing so many shameful acts like doing so many humiliating embarrassing things I mean. You could just make a list of it.

But I so I mean like in the secular world Satan has a vested interest in removing this concept of shame so he like the idea of shame is Basically the painful feeling that arises from a conscience, you know.

Like so this like sense of a violated conscience that comes when you do something dishonorable, right? So that's shame in general like it's it's really tied to guilt, right? So a guilt is more objective meaning when you do something wrong.

You're objectively guilt guilty, but then shame is like the conscience that torments you because you've done something wrong. So Satan's goal obviously is to remove that. To basically say hey you can commit as many shameless acts as you want and it does here the conscience, right?

Yeah to sear the conscience and make it to where that's not like that's not real. That's not a thing, right? That's not a thing anymore. So then in the secular morality, we're we're basically living in a society that is you know.

Committing shameless acts with one another right doing shameful things in every seat like conceivable area, right? Like we're just filled with shame, right? We're doing shameful acts and what we're trying to do is like we're trying to come along and play the role of the devil.

Which is just to silence the conscience. And so the method we do we method we used to do that is the method where we're basically saying hey, that's not real. You're not allowed to point it out. You're not like it's wrong for you to feel that and You know and then that comes in like it feels like it's like, you know faux compassion or whatever.

It feels like it feels compassionate to come along and basically say hey, you know, you're strong and powerful courageous. Can't you can't even clean your home, right?

But that's you're doing your best.

Yeah, but it feels it feels you know. We all have days like that like that feels like the compassionate thing to do. But really what it's doing is it's just shackling people to their to.

Their sin basically at that point, right? Well, well, I guess this is my best if people keep saying this is my best.

I'm okay, and I'm enough, you know, and right don't let anyone hold you back and all that. So you have you have all that. It's on the secular end of things where that's obviously the move that's being made.

But then on the Christian side what you have is you have a lot of sentimental people who unfortunately They just haven't thought through what they're doing. Okay, so like in their mind like in their mind the idea of shaming someone Like that would be anti Jesus or something, right?

So in the reason why is because there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and so I. They're they're coming along and they're not really reading the kind of society that They're in you see what I mean?

What do you mean? This is one of those like Like if you're if you're living in Japan or something. If you're if you're living in Japan like in a shame hunter society or something like that and you know you have the person who They got the 98 on their test instead of getting a 99 on their tests and they're considering falling on their swords, right?

They're the kind of person who needs someone to come along and basically say hey, yeah, you know like it's just a point man. You haven't dishonored yourself you haven't dishonored your family you haven't dishonored your nation.

You haven't you know, like it's not will come up tomorrow.

So like there's a kind of counsel that you give to that person the kind of counsel you give as a Christian is like hey. There's therefore no Condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, right? Like that's the kind of counsel you give in that moment, but we're on the opposite end of it.

We're on the other end. Like we're on the we're in the end like the we're in the society where everyone is like committing shame shameful acts. Yeah, the Romans one we're past feeling yeah, we're like that's where we're at we're glorying in our shame.

We're putting our shame out in front of people and we're getting we expect to get praised for it, right? So in that kind of society then the right counsel to that kind of person is not there's therefore now no condemnation for those.

We're Christ Jesus. It's just a wrong verse for that situation. I mean, that's true. But that isn't the need of the moment the need of the moment isn't just to rehearse like to yourself that you you know.

Your daughter of the king your son. You are worthy, you know, you are worthy. Yeah, you know you.

Come as you are.

Yeah, I mean this is not the the appropriate Application of that is you know, so what what that functionally is doing is it's telling people, you know Continue and send that grace man bound. But it's a mechanism that's being used to silence the conscience the seer the conscience and it doesn't really work, you know.

But it's not like that's why you keep you need more and more more but then what you have is you have a lot of misguided Christians who basically a lot of them are kind of functional Marcionites like Meaning they they are setting the New Testament of God against the Old Testament God and they think that Jesus was just kind of A California hippie.

He was a nice guy and all that, you know, but then the issue is they just don't understand how shame works in the Bible and They don't have any category for God. Shaming Miriam and then Thinking that thinking that it would be a good thing for a father to spit in a daughter's face and shame her outside the camp For seven days.

They don't have a category for that at all, you know, so right so like the issue is Yes, there are there are shameful things you can do and and then you know as you're even thinking about what what does it mean?

To shame someone will shame someone is like to call someone to feel shame to make them a shame In order to publicly humiliate or shame them for being or doing something specifically specified, right? So like the so the idea is just to say that yeah, like shaming someone is generally a public like Rebuke right this entire designed to humiliate someone and produce shame in them.

And I mean there's all sorts of In both Testaments like this this is a thick concept. I mean, this is what church discipline is. Like discipline is an act of public shaming and so if you're gonna throw out the concept of shaming someone Then you just lost church discipline.

You've lost, you know biblical God and I don't even know what we're doing anymore so I mean there there are like the issue is there are moments where people are doing things that are deeply shameful and they need to have it like they don't have the shame that's coming from themselves and the best thing you can do is be a.

A.

Mechanism that God uses essentially just to help them to feel the shame that they should be feeling right now. To help wake them up. So yeah.

Guardrails for Redemptive Shame and Church Discipline

I'm gonna I'm gonna push back a little bit on you Tim because Earlier you said that you know as as this living in the society that we do right now. Obviously, we're not in the the Japanese, you know. Shame on our society where the 98 is unacceptable.

You must get a 99. We're not living in that society. And so Therefore, you know, we we just you're not allowed to shame people. I would actually argue that even in our society right now. You are allowed to shame people, right?

But you're not allowed to shame people for anything. That is worth Actually shameful, you know, right you're you're only allowed to shame people for the things that are not worth shaming right, so so basically the the things that God says are righteous are Worth shaming in our society and the things that God hates are not worth shaming in our society.

Yeah, do you feel like that's a fair assessment of where we're at?

Yeah, I mean it's somewhat of an inescapable concept when you're talking about something along those lines. It's not really whether we're gonna shame people. It's like what are the things that were you shame people over and.

Yeah, I mean certainly like if you commit any of any of the sins of the left then all these rules go out the door. Anyways, right, right. So these rules they only apply to the sins, you know sins on the right or they only applied to you know A biblical ethic at that point, right?

So you can't actually shame people for the right reasons. But I mean sure. Yeah, if they fail to recycle you can shame them all day long. If they don't affirm shame them, yeah, I mean if they don't affirm someone's pronouns like, you know, if they say You know one of the naughty words now, you know the new the new naughty words that Typically are related to diversity equity and inclusion.

Yeah. Sure. So I mean, yeah, it is definitely an inescapable concept.

And.

You know, we're just we're living in such a time where People's brains are so broken at this point that they can't even see the contradictions anymore. So it's right. It's It's amazing how that works, you know, I mean in you can just see I mean you see example after example.

Of this kind of thing, you know, I mean, it's it's the same kind of concept that's happening with the idea of tolerance or whatever. So, so you must tolerate like my sexual perversion. But like the only thing that like shouldn't be Tolerated is you pushing back on that, right?

So we taught you right we preach tolerance. We're tolerant of everything except for You saying that we're doing anything wrong.

Right, and I think ultimately it comes down to the fact that you know, I mean even atheists have a god. We're all religious. We all worship something and you know for Christians that something is we worship the true God the creator of the universe and then.

For pagans, it's worship of self right where everyone's doing right in their own eyes. They're deciding what is good and what is evil and at the minute that you push back on that. Once society's gotten where we're at right now the minute you push back on that wall all of a sudden you're attacking The God of this age, right?

Right? Yeah, so so so it seems like that, you know, I. It seems like most people don't outside of our circles can't even recognize that they can't recognize the fact that hey. We're all worshiping something that you know atheists think they're not worshiping something.

But they are and it comes out in the way that they live their lives. It comes out in the way that they talk especially towards Christians. You know in the way that they they get so angry and upset the minute that you don't accept.

Whatever it is that they believe which I think is interesting too because you you were mentioning at some point Earlier you were mentioning something about hey like the further and further you go down this road where you try to sear your conscience the more you the more.

You need to hear the you go girl type talk right, and and I think you see that playing out in real life like on a you know on a mass scale where. For you for so long. It was hey, just just let me you know, just let me have my own sexual preference inside, you know my bedroom and.

And I'm not gonna talk about it. I'm not gonna you know flaunt it for everyone to see. I just want to be able to choose what what I want in the bedroom and then that transformed into. Eventually what it is today where it's like, hey, you've got to you've got to affirm.

You have to bend the knee you have to accept that. This is what it is and not just accept it but you have to speak the way that I demand you speak and. You have to address me the way that I demand you address me and and all this nonsense.

And I mean at this point it's like you can lose your job depending on where you are if you don't agree with all that and. And and it seems like that's exactly what so it seems like that's exactly what you're talking about where it's like hey, it's not it's no longer enough for me to just.

You know let me decide what I want in the bedroom now you've got to say this and you've got to talk this way and you've got to act this way and fortune 500 companies need to hire the way that aligns with what is going to make me feel good and what affirms me as an individual and.

So it's just interesting to see that Play out in real life where that sort of you know, quote-unquote Slippery slope fallacy all of the sudden isn't really a fallacy anymore.

Yeah.

I mean the more what's happening in internally is that the more a person is actively trying to Like the more that they're engaging in shameful behavior What's actually happening is their conscience is going off and they're not in they're not really able to Totally silence it like that's what they're not they're not really able to do that.

They're trying everything they can to do it. So the more destructive of behaviors that they're engaging in the more they demand that you affirm them in a certain sense. It's like you look at that objectively you say hey, I don't I Don't really need anyone to affirm me about anything.

I'm doing Right, right. Yeah, like the issue is I don't because I My conscience isn't going off. So if my if my conscience isn't tormenting me inside It doesn't really matter What other people say about it, you know and Paul makes Paul makes that point essentially I mean, he basically said, you know, he makes this point to the Corinthians.

He says I mean essentially, I mean, it's a paraphrase but It's a small matter for me to be judged by you or any human court. So like what your opinion of me doesn't matter to me. Yeah, I guess the small issue like meaning like not that he's Doesn't care about them or whatever else but he just doesn't judge himself that way, right?

Their opinion of him doesn't matter. So like in other words, it's small matter for me to be judged by you or any human court. In fact, it's a small matter for me to judge my own self, you know, like now he Essentially, he doesn't know anything about himself that he's in Sin over right, but then he but then he says like but even by that I'm not justified.

So I'll leave it to God who judges the secrets of men's heart to jet to be my judge, right? So but the issue is like he's saying I have a clear conscience like that's all I have I have a testimony of a clear Conscience and I can commend my conscience to you.

So therefore what you think about me doesn't matter and To a certain extent like what I think about myself doesn't matter. All I have is this conscience right and that's an imperfect mechanism, but my conscience is clear on the matter.

So I'm fine, right? So I don't need your approval. I don't need anyone. I don't need like your approval specifically or any human courts approval. I don't even need my own approval. Okay, like I know that my conscience is my conscience is the only Mechanism I got I have right and it's clear and so I'm fine like that.

So, you know, so but then the issue is when people aren't fine when their consciences are going off they need more and more and more affirmation and it's they become like More and more needy in that way.

And the reason is why it's because they're trying to like desperately silence this guilt, you know I think this shame that they're feeling they're trying to do everything I can so I mean and this is happening in every single area.

And people they just don't know how the conscience works, you know, so like the issue is like when you know, you have individuals who Have like are pretending to be like you have a man pretending to be a woman.

Like his conscience is tormenting. I mean like I like inside you say I look like a freak. I feel like a freak. I don't feel like the person that I I thought I was gonna feel like and So now I need you to affirm me, right?

Yeah, same thing with the sodomite. I need you to affirm me like for what I am because I know that I'm doing something deeply shameful Inside and they don't have a clean conscience about it. So they need you to be their conscience for them.

They need you to keep on telling them that what they're doing is okay when people are promiscuous. They sleep around, you know, you're living in a society right now where you can't shame them, right? But then why do they need like why do they take it so poorly if you try to introduce any kind of morality the equation.

It's because their conscience is off. All right, and so they need everyone around them. Like what's happening is you have people who are engaging in these just horribly destructive habits. And then they need everyone to come alongside and praise them because their conscience isn't clear, you know.

So if their conscience was clear, they'd be fine, but it's not. So that's I mean and that's what's happening like to the degree their conscience is to is is going off. They need they they need they're desperate to have everyone praise them.

Basically. Yeah, so.

In talking about hey, can you can and should Christians? Shame others when there's obvious sin involved or something like that. What what exactly in your mind? You know, do you think the Bible is describing when it's talking about shaming someone for sin, so maybe give us like I don't know an example or something of What would line up with what the scriptures Command us basically because because I imagine a situation where someone is listening to what we're saying and then they you know, they take it to like the They take it too far Beyond what is pleasing to God and so so it might be good to Try and try and put give a little more shape to this and and maybe put up some guardrails in terms of like hey How do we do this while still balancing it with the commands to you know?

To love one another to you know.

You.

Know speak gently towards one another and all because those are those are commands too. So then how do we balance all that basically is what I'm asking you?

Yeah, I mean, I I don't know that our biggest problem right now is abusing this. And that's not what you're indicating. But I'm just trying to say that I don't know that our Biggest danger right now is taking this too far.

So like meaning like the example I gave of numbers 1214 the Lord said to Moses if her father had butt spit in her face Should she not be shamed seven days meaning? She would be taken outside the camp because she's unclean and all that like I I think that we're whatever thing you can conceive of.

That we think we would probably think is way over the top at this point would probably be far short of that wouldn't it?

Oh.

Definitely for most people. Definitely for most people. Yeah, so I mean, I don't think that we're I think for most people I.

Mean for most people. For most people like this the scarlet letter is too far.

Yeah, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, I would think the scarlet letter letter is too far because it's not redemptive and it's permanent and Mm-hmm. Like I would think that that'd be too far. I just don't think that we're doing anything Close to that right now.

Right, like meaning like you're not you like with with the scarlet letter kind of situation. The issue with that is you you know, you force someone to wear a permanent sign of dishonor or whatever like that's like.

There's no redemptive Purpose with that right so like in this in this kind of scenario should she not be shamed seven days. There's a period of shaming and then it's over and there's restoration. You know, so that happens with church discipline that I mean that should be happening with church discipline meaning like you have a Public act of shaming and then there's a mechanism to remove the shame embrace your.

Like when true repentance happens, right and when true repentance happens, there's a mechanism of restoration. So it's restorative. So I mean like the idea of shaming there does need to be some kind of restorative element to it.

Okay, but I mean we're at a point right now. We're.

Like.

We're not at the scarlet letter kind of point I'm we're at a point right now where you can Thank you used to live in a society where it was expected that if you weren't a virgin and you get married you wouldn't wear a white wedding dress.

Right. Yeah, we're at a society right now that thinks that that would be like having to wear a scarlet letter to not wear a white wedding dress Even if you you have played the harlot in your father's house or whatever, right?

So I think the issue is that we're Like in a past generation that would have been perceived as lying, right? It could be so, you know, so we're at us we're at a scenario right now where there's no tolerance for anything that can possibly Be a means of shame at all.

Okay. So, I mean you're not even allowed to Like if a person is like an active prostitute You you're not even allowed to say hey like, you know to accurately describe their behavior with language anymore, right?

So like like meaning so we're not even allowed to use words To try to wake people up like sharp language anymore.

Yeah, like who was it that made that post about? Sending your daughters off to college to become well-used mattresses. Yes. Everyone just totally lost their mind over it. Yes.

He so but that's a good example of the kind of phenomenon that we're talking about to where we're so far.

Like.

We're we're so far like in front of the line at this point. That the danger isn't really that we overdo it. It's just that we don't have any tolerance for any of it, right? We don't even have a tolerance for anyone coming along and saying shameful actions are shameful and.

So, I mean like if you were like in in. This is where we're at. Like if if you have a church that capitulated in The kovat scenario or whatever refused to meet for six months, you know, whatever else Carefully gave their tickets out of the people who are allowed to come to the church or whatever.

You're not allowed like it would. It's worse to call them cowards Than for them to be cowards.

Mm-hmm. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, the greater sin would be calling them cowards then to be one, right?

So we're at that point right now where there's no. We're not in some great danger of overdoing it. We we're basically just allowing Shameful behave, I mean we don't even know what a coward is anymore, right?

I mean it's just as an example. We've erased that word from the vocabulary of.

Everyone.

Like no one uses that word. It's not even a concept anymore. Like it's not a concept that anyone will tolerate for any reason like you're not allowed to use it in any Circumstance in any situation because that would be shaming and that would be mean So but then the issue is that like we tolerate cowards, but we don't We police people calling them that you know.

So, I mean, I think what you need is you need to like the issue is that yes. These there are public shaming rituals in the Bible. They're meant to be redic redemptive. There is a time limit on them, but we've lost any ability to carry out even the small First steps of it.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So so at this point like our our biggest danger is to Read learn what this concept of shame is and I mean, obviously the left knows it, you know, the left does it. Like the issue is the left like is the most puritanical shame oriented.

I mean as you said, I mean, that's what they are. I mean, they will rigorously police People who've devoted their life to the causes that they're trying to advance Over minor, you know infractions of poor vocabulary use or something like that.

So we're at a time right now where the left is doing this and on the left. I mean, there's no redemption whatsoever, right? Once you fall, you know fall afoul of the left. I mean you're Irredeemable. There is no hope for you scum of the earth deplorable everything else.

So, I mean that's a bad example of it, obviously but you know what we do need to relearn the concept and use it in a redemptive way and that is gonna mean like harsher language and You know public acts of shaming when people do shameful things for sure, but we don't write category for any of it.

Really?

Okay. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the episode on so and it's certainly something that we need to Think about more as a society. Especially like you were saying there towards the end.

I mean, yeah I mean, we still do live in some capacity in a shame on our society. It's just we have everything all backwards where we shame. Everything that is righteous and good according to to God's Word and we praise everything that God says is evil and wicked and will lead Us straight to death.

So that's certainly something we need to think more about and thank you Tim for answering all my questions on that. We want to thank you guys for supporting us week in and week out for interacting with us online.

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