Is It Ok to Shame People?

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It's worse to call them cowards Than for them to be cowards

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Morning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences These audiences may include but are not limited to professing Christians who never read their Bible Sissies sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns

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The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is

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Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come

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They will be consumed and they will perish Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words

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They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day

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Their house will stand Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the

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Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask. We're your host Harrison Kerrigan pastor

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Tim Mullett and today. We'll answer the age -old question Is it okay to shame people now as we kick this episode off Tim?

01:57

What Bible verse do you have related to shaming people? Yeah, number is 1214 says but the

02:04

Lord said to Moses if her father had but spit in her face Should she not be shamed seven days let her be shut outside the camp seven days and after that she may be brought again brought in again

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So God, so if I'm understanding the verse correctly Seems to be that God is explicitly commanding

02:23

They shame her right Okay, so there so there's at least so basically what that is showing us is there's at least some

02:35

Instances where it's possible for shame to be used for good, right?

02:40

Yeah, I mean apparently to To yeah, I mean two instances in the same passage, right?

02:45

So, you know, the Lord is basically saying her face and then kicked out right? Yeah, so like, you know in God's mind

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There's a situation where a father can spit in his daughter's face and she should be shamed seven days because I mean she becomes unclean

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At that point she needs to go outside the camp So there's a situation God has in mind where he said that he thinks that that would be a reasonable thing to happen and then he's

03:07

Functionally doing that to marry him because of her rebellion against Moses. So right, right

03:13

Yeah, so so my suspicion is when you're asking this kind of question Is it okay to shame people is that most people their knee -jerk reaction is gonna be to say no

03:23

It is not okay to shame people. Is that a fair assumption? Yeah, I mean, that's generally That's generally the response

03:31

Yeah, so so you ran a poll on this and what was that most people's response to the poll or was the poll?

03:40

Different. I mean we have a you know, we have a pretty unique art audience. There are certain points

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So you never really know whether we're they're gonna come down with things like that But then yeah, this is this is one of those topics where I think with the people who generally follow us

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They would think that there's some sort of category for shaming With that but then when the people react to it, man, yeah, they react to it pretty bad.

04:06

So this is this is a It's one of those vitriolic response type things.

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Yeah, so so why is there such a big why is there such a big you know?

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You know such a vitriolic reaction when it comes to the subject of shame and specifically, you know,

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I mean, I think most people when they're when they're talking about shame that they just feel themselves

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Right, like it's not it's not brought about by someone else Necessarily, it's just shame that they inherently feel people typically tend to respond to that in a manner

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This is something along the lines of you know, hey, it's okay. Don't beat yourself up over it blah blah blah, whatever but then when it comes to the the idea of one person

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Shaming another person for something that for some sin that they've committed whatever it is

05:03

Then the response becomes you can't do that, right? And so so why is it that that there's that type of reaction when it comes to shame?

05:15

When it comes to just shame in general Yeah, I mean so we're you get this reaction in two different ways so one one of the ways in which you're gonna get this kind of reaction is you're you're getting this kind of reaction from the fact that we're living in a society that is filled with shameless people so Satan obviously has a vested interest in removing the concept of shame and I would say that we're no longer really living in a

05:38

Shame on our society and the way that we used to live more in you know So if you just rewind the clock back a little bit we used to live in more of a shame honor

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Kind of society where this concept had stronger Connotations in general, but then we're we're right now like if you think about the kind of society we're living in right now

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We're living in like a Romans one kind of society, right? So and this isn't even you know

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This this isn't even related to sexual issues or things like that But I mean Romans 1 27 says men likewise give gave up the natural relations with women

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We're consumed in passion with one another men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error

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So, I mean like we're we're living in a society dominated by people doing shameful things, but then it's not even limited to the extreme kind of things that you might imagine

06:32

Like meaning like we're we're living in a kind of society right now where people will commit shame shameful acts like exit people in the past would have been humiliated and offended by I Horrified at the thought of committing and we do them as a matter of routine and not only do it

06:50

We do them as a matter of routine. We glory in it Okay, like meaning it used to be like you used to live in the kind of society where if your home was messy

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You would be humiliated if someone showed up Like unnoticed or something like that, right?

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So if someone ran out, yeah, they came yeah unannounced to your home and it was a mess You would have been horrified and probably embarrassed and probably spend the next week

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You know breaking yourself over the coals for how much you've humiliated yourself with it

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But I mean right now and we're living in the kind of society right now where we'll post pictures of it online right

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Without any sense of shame whatsoever, you know, we're we're we're living in the kind of society where people will like where Go out in public and where the kind of stuff that they shouldn't be like that They should be ashamed of right like they should have like you have the you have the ladies yeah post in the

07:44

Messy house the messy kitchen whatever and then you'll have other you'll have other women come along and and say you go girl

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You're doing your best. You're right. And and when you really sit down and think about it, it's like man That's kind of insulting

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This is my best you think this is my best It's all at least I at least

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I don't know That's that's probably how I that's how I feel. I would take it like I feel like this is definitely not my best

08:11

Yeah, yeah, so we're at that point We're at that point as a society right now.

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We're we're committing so many shameful acts like doing so many humiliating embarrassing things.

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I mean You could just make a list of it But I so I mean like in the secular world

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Satan has a vested interest in removing this concept of shame so he like the idea of shame is

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Basically the painful feeling that arises from a conscience, you know Like so this like sense of a violated conscience that comes when you do something dishonorable, right?

08:48

So that's shame in general like it's it's really tied to guilt, right? So a guilt is more objective meaning when you do something wrong

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You're objectively guilt guilty, but then shame is like the conscience that torments you because you've done something wrong

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So Satan's goal obviously is to remove that To basically say hey you can commit as many shameless acts as you want and it doesn't hear the conscience, right?

09:13

Yeah to sear the conscience and make it to where that's not like that's not real. That's not a thing, right? That's not a thing anymore. So then in the secular morality, we're we're basically living in a society that is you know

09:26

Committing shameless acts with one another right doing shameful things in every seat like conceivable area, right?

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Like we're just filled with shame, right? We're doing shameful acts and what we're trying to do is like we're trying to come along and play the role of the devil

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Which is just to silence the conscience. And so the method we do we method we used to do that is the method where we're

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Basically saying hey, that's not real. You're not allowed to point it out. You're not like it's wrong for you to feel that and You know and then that comes in like it feels like it's like, you know faux compassion or whatever

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It feels like it feels compassionate to come along and basically say hey, you know, you're strong and powerful courageous

10:04

Can't you can't even clean your home, right? But that's you're doing your best, right?

10:09

Yeah, but it feels it feels um, you know, we all have days like that Like that feels like the compassionate thing to do but really what it's doing is it's just shackling people to their to Their sin basically at that point, right?

10:22

Well, well, I guess this is my best if people keep saying this is my best I'm, okay, and i'm enough, you know, and right don't let anyone hold you back and all that.

10:31

So you have you have all that It's on the secular end of things where that's obviously the move that's being made

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But then on the christian side what you have is you have a lot of sentimental people who unfortunately they just haven't thought

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Through what they're doing. Okay, so like in their mind like in their mind the idea of shaming someone

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Like that would be anti -jesus or something, right? So and the reason why is because there's no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus and so like they're they're coming along and they're not really reading the kind of society that They're in You see what

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I mean? What what do you mean? This is one of those like Like if you're if you're living in japan or something

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If you're if you're living in japan like in a shame honor society or something like that And you know you have the person who

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They got the 98 on their test instead of getting a 99 on their tests and you know

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They're considering falling on their swords, right? Okay, they're the kind of person who needs someone to come along and basically say hey, yeah, you know like It's just a point man, you know

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You haven't dishonored yourself you haven't dishonored your family you haven't dishonored your nation You haven't you know, like it's not the sun will come up tomorrow

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I mean so like there's a kind of counsel that you give to that person the kind of counsel you give as a christian is like Hey, there's therefore no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus, right?

12:04

Like, uh, that's the kind of counsel you give in that moment, but we're on the opposite end of it we're on the other end like we're on the we're in the end like the

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We're in this society where everyone is like committing shameful shameful acts Yeah, the the romans one we're past feeling.

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Yeah, we're like that's where we're at. We're glorying in our shame We're putting our shame out in front of people and we're getting we expect to get praised for it, right?

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So in that kind of society then the right counsel to that kind of person is not there's therefore now no condemnation for those

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We're in christ. Jesus. It's just a wrong verse for that situation. I mean, that's true But that isn't the need of the moment the need of the moment isn't just to rehearse like to yourself that you

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You know your daughter of the king your son You are worthy, you know, you are worthy.

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Yeah, you know you Come as you are and all that. Yeah Yeah, I mean this is not the um the appropriate

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Application of that is you know So what what that functionally is doing is it's telling people, you know, continue in sin that grace may abound

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But it's a mechanism that's being used to silence the conscience to sear the conscience and it doesn't really work, you know

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But it's not like that's why you keep you need more and more and more but then what you have is you have a lot of misguided christians who basically a lot of them are kind of functional marcionites like meaning they

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They are setting the new testament of god against the old testament god and they think that jesus was just kind of a california

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Hippie, he was a nice guy and all that, you know, but then the issue is they just don't understand how shame works in the bible and They don't have any category for god

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Shaming miriam and then thinking that Thinking that it would be a good thing for a father to spit in a daughter's face and shame her outside the camp for seven

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Days, they don't have a category for that at all, you know, so right, so like the issue is like yes, there are there are shameful things you can do and And then you know as you're even thinking about what what does it mean to shame someone?

14:05

Well shame someone is like to cause someone to feel shame to make them a shame Um in order to publicly humiliate or shame them for being or doing something specifically specified, right?

14:15

so Like the so the idea is just to say that yeah, like shaming someone is generally a public like, um

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Rebuke right that's entirely designed to humiliate someone and produce shame in them.

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And I mean there's all sorts of In both testaments like this this is that's the concept

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I mean this is what church discipline is, okay Like church discipline is an act of public shaming And so if you're going to throw out the concept of shaming someone

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Then you just lost church discipline. You've lost, you know, biblical god and I don't even know what we're doing anymore so I mean there there are like the issue is there are moments where people are doing things that are deeply shameful and they need to Have like they don't have the shame that's coming from themselves and the best thing you can do is be a

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A mechanism that god uses essentially just to help them to feel the shame that they should be feeling right

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To help wake them up. So yeah I'm gonna i'm gonna push back a little bit on you tim because earlier you said that you know as as the living in the society that we do right now, obviously, we're not in the the japanese, you know, um shame honor society where The 98 is unacceptable.

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You must get a 99. We're not living in that society. And so Therefore, you know, we we just you're not allowed to shame people

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I would actually argue that even in our society right now You are allowed to shame people

15:51

Right, but you're not allowed to shame people for anything that is worth

15:57

It's actually shameful. Yeah Right. You're you're only allowed to shame people for the things that are not worth shaming

16:05

Right. So so basically the the things that god says are righteous Are worth shaming in our society and the things that god hates

16:15

Are not worth shaming in our society. Yeah Do you feel like that's a fair assessment of where we're at?

16:21

Yeah, I mean it's somewhat of an inescapable concept when you're talking about something along those lines It's not really whether we're going to shame people.

16:27

It's like what are the things that we shame people over? And yeah I mean certainly like if you commit any of any of the sins of the left then all these rules go out the door anyways

16:35

Right, right so these these rules they only apply to the sins, you know sins on the right or they only apply to You know a biblical ethic at that point, right?

16:44

So you can't actually shame people for the right reasons, but I mean sure. Yeah, if they fail to recycle you can shame them all day long

16:52

If they don't affirm shame them, yeah, I mean if they don't affirm someone's pronouns like, you know if they say you know one of the naughty words now, you know the new the new naughty words that Typically are related to diversity equity and inclusion.

17:08

Yeah. Sure. So I mean, yeah, I it is definitely an inescapable concept um and You know, we're just we're living in such a time where People's brains are so broken at this point that they can't even see the contradictions anymore.

17:24

So it's right. It's uh It's amazing how that works, you know, I mean in you can just see

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I mean you see example after example Of this kind of thing, you know, I mean, it's it's the same kind of concept that's happening with the idea of tolerance or whatever

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So you must tolerate like my sexual perversion but like the only thing that like shouldn't be

17:47

Tolerated is You pushing back on that right? So we taught you we preach tolerance.

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We're tolerant of everything except for You saying that we're doing anything wrong Right, and I think ultimately it comes down to the fact that you know,

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I mean even atheists have a god We're all religious. We all worship something uh, and you know for christians that something is we worship the true god the creator of the universe and then um for pagans

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It's worship of self right where everyone's doing right in their own eyes

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They're deciding what is good and what is evil and at the minute that you push back on that Once society's gotten where we're at right now the minute you push back on that.

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Well, all of a sudden you're attacking The god of this age, right? Right Yep, so so so it seems like that, you know

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I it seems like most people Don't outside of our circles can't even recognize that they can't recognize the fact that hey, we're all worshiping something

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That you know atheists think they're not worshiping something But they are and it comes out in the way that they live their lives.

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It comes out in the way that they talk especially towards christians um, you know in the way that they they get so Angry and upset the minute that you don't accept

19:09

Whatever it is that they believe which I think is interesting too because you you were mentioning at some point

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Earlier you were mentioning something about hey, like the further and further you go down this road where you try to sear your conscience the more you the more

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You need to hear the you go girl type talk right and and I think you see that playing out in real life like on a you know on a mass scale where For you for so long.

19:41

It was hey, just just let me you know, just let me have my own sexual preference inside you know my bedroom and And i'm not going to talk about it.

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I'm not going to You know flaunt it for everyone to see I just want to be able to choose what what I want in the bedroom

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And then that transformed Into eventually what it is today where it's like hey, you've got to you've got to affirm you have to bend the knee

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You have to accept that. This is what it is and not just accept it But you have to speak the way that I demand you speak and you have to address me the way that I demand you address me and And all this nonsense and I mean at this point it's like you can lose your job

20:26

Depending on where you are if you don't agree with all that And and it seems like that's exactly what so it seems like that's exactly what you're talking about where it's like hey it's not it's no longer enough for me to just You know, let me decide what

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I want in the bedroom Now you've got to say this and you've got to talk this way and you've got to act this way and fortune 500 companies need to hire the way that aligns with what is going to make me feel good and what affirms me as an individual and So it's just interesting to see that Play out in real life where that sort of you know, quote unquote slippery slope fallacy all of a sudden

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Isn't really a fallacy anymore. Yeah, I mean the more what's happening Internally is that the more a person is actively trying to like the more that they're engaging in shameful behavior

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What's actually happening is their conscience is going off and they're not in they're not really able to Totally silence it like that.

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So they're not they're not really able to do that They're trying everything they can to do it So the more destructive of behaviors that they're engaging in the more they demand that you affirm them

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And in a certain sense, it's like you look at that objectively you say hey, I don't I don't really need anyone to affirm me about anything i'm doing

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Right, right. Yeah, like the issue is I don't because I my conscience isn't going off So if my if my conscience isn't tormenting me inside It doesn't really matter

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What other people say about it You know and paul makes paul makes that point essentially

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I mean, he basically said he you know, he makes this point to the corinthians. He he says I mean essentially, uh, it's a paraphrase but It's a small matter for me to be judged by you or any human court

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So like what your opinion of me doesn't matter to me like it's a small issue like meaning like not that he's

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Doesn't care about them or whatever else but he just doesn't judge himself that way right like their opinion of him doesn't matter

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So like in other words, it's a small matter for me to be judged by you or any human court um

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In fact, it's a small matter for me to judge my own self, you know, like now he essentially, he doesn't know anything about himself that he's

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In sin over right? But then he but then he says like but even by that i'm not justified

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So i'll leave it to god who judges the secrets of men's heart to be my judge, right? So but the issue is like he's saying

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I have a clear conscience Like that's all I have. I have a testimony of a clear conscience and I can commend my conscience to you

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So therefore what you think about me doesn't matter And to a certain extent like what

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I think about myself doesn't matter All I have is this conscience right and that's an imperfect mechanism, but my conscience is clear on the matter

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So i'm fine, right? So I don't need your approval. I don't need anyone like I don't need like your approval specifically or any human courts approval

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I don't even need my own approval. Right? Like I know that my conscience is my conscience is the only

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Mechanism I got I have right and it's clear And so i'm fine like that's you know, so but then the issue is when people aren't fine

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When their consciences are going off they need more and more and more affirmation and it's they become like You know more and more needy in that way and the reason is why is because they're trying to like desperately silence

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This guilt, you know, like this shame that they're feeling they're trying to do everything they can So I mean and this is happening in every single area and people they just don't know how the conscience works, you know, so like the issue is like when you know, you have individuals who

24:03

Have like are pretending to be like you have a man pretending to be a woman Um Like his conscience is tormenting in me

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Like I like inside you say I look like a freak. I feel like a freak I don't feel like the person that I I thought

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I was going to feel like And so now I need you to affirm me, right? Yeah, same thing with the sodomite

24:22

I need you to affirm me like for what I am because I know that i'm doing something deeply shameful

24:28

Inside and they don't have a clean conscience about it So they need you to be their conscience for them They need you to keep on telling them that what they're doing is okay when people are promiscuous and they sleep around You know, you're living in a society right now where you can't shame them, right?

24:41

But then why do they need like why do they take it so poorly? If you try to introduce any kind of morality the equation is because their conscience is off, right?

24:50

and so they need everyone around them like What's happening is you have people who are engaging in these just horribly destructive habits

24:57

And then they need everyone to come alongside and praise them Because their conscience isn't clear, you know, so if their conscience was clear, they'd be fine, but it's not so that's

25:08

I mean And that's what's happening like to the degree their conscience is is is going off They need they they need they're desperate to have everyone praise them.

25:16

Basically. Yeah so in talking about hey can can and should christians

25:25

Shame others when there's obvious sin involved or something like that What what exactly in your mind

25:32

You know Do do you think the bible is describing when it's talking about? shaming someone for sin, so so Maybe give us like I don't know an example or something of What would line up with what the scriptures?

25:50

Command us basically because because I imagine a situation where Someone is listening to what we're saying and then they you know, they take it to like the

26:01

They take it too far uh beyond what is pleasing to god and so so it might be good to Try and try and put give a little more shape to this and and maybe put up some guardrails

26:13

In terms of like hey, how do we do this? while still balancing it with the commands to you know, um

26:21

To love one another to you know, um, You know speak gently towards one another and all because those are those are commands too

26:32

So then how how do we balance all that basically is what i'm asking you? Yeah, I mean,

26:38

I I don't know that our biggest problem right now is abusing this And that's not what you're indicating, but i'm just trying to say that I don't know that Our biggest danger right now is taking this too far

26:51

So like meaning like the example I gave of numbers 12 14 the lord said to moses if her father had butt spit in her face

26:59

Should she not be shamed seven days meaning she would be taken outside the camp because she's unclean and all that like I I think that we're whatever thing you can conceive of That we think we would probably think is way over the top at this point

27:16

Would probably be far short of that, wouldn't it? Yeah Definitely for most people definitely for most people.

27:23

Yeah, so I mean I don't think that we're I think for most people I mean for most people for most people like this the scarlet letter is too far

27:35

Yeah, do you get what i'm saying? Yeah. I mean, I would think the scarlet letter letter is too far because it's not redemptive

27:41

And it's permanent and Like I would think that that'd be too far. I just don't think that we're doing anything

27:48

Close to that right now right like meaning like you're not you like with with the scarlet letter kind of situation the issue with that is you you know,

27:56

You force someone to wear a permanent sign of dishonor or whatever like um that's like uh

28:06

There's no redemptive Purpose with that right so like in this in this kind of scenario should she not be shamed seven days

28:13

There's a period of shaming and then it's over And there's restoration, you know, so that happens with church discipline that I mean that should be happening with church discipline meaning like you have

28:22

A public act of shaming and then there's a mechanism to remove the shame embrace your

28:28

Like when true repentance happens, right when true repentance happens, there's a mechanism of restoration.

28:34

So it's restorative So I mean like the idea of shaming there does need to be some kind of restorative element to it

28:41

Okay, but I mean we're at a point right now. We're like We're not at the scarlet letter kind of point

28:47

I mean, we're at a point right now where you can like you used to live in a society where It was expected that if you weren't a virgin and you get married, you wouldn't wear a white wedding dress right

28:59

We're at a society right now that thinks that that would be Like having to wear a scarlet letter to not wear a white wedding dress

29:06

Even if you you have played the harlot in your father's house or whatever, right? So like the issue is that we're um

29:14

Like in a past generation that would have been perceived as lying, right? Like it could be so, you know, so we're at us we're at a scenario right now where there's no tolerance for anything that can possibly

29:28

Be a means of shame at all. Okay So, I mean you're not even allowed to Like if a person is like an active prostitute

29:40

You're you're not even allowed to say hey like, uh, you know To accurately describe their behavior with language anymore, right?

29:47

So like like meaning so we're not even allowed to use words To try to wake people up like sharp language anymore yeah, like who who was it that made that post about Sending your daughters off to college to become well used mattresses.

30:06

Yes Everyone just totally lost their mind over it Yeah, see so but that's a good example of the kind of phenomenon that we're talking about to where we're so far

30:16

Like We're we're so far like in front of the line at this point

30:23

That the danger isn't really that we overdo it. It's just that we don't have any tolerance for any of it, right?

30:29

We don't even have a tolerance for anyone coming along and saying shameful actions are shameful and So, I mean like if you were like in in This is where we're at like if if you have a church that capitulated

30:42

In the covid scenario or whatever refused to meet for six months, you know, whatever else

30:50

Carefully gave their tickets out of the people who are allowed to come To the church or whatever you're not allowed like it would it's worse to call them cowards

31:00

Than for them to be cowards Mm -hmm. Do you see what i'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, the greater sin would be calling them cowards then to be one, right?

31:10

So we're at that point right now where there's no We're not in some great danger of overdoing it

31:18

We we're basically just allowing shameful behavior. I mean, we don't even know what a coward is anymore, right?

31:23

I mean just as an example we've erased that word from the vocabulary of everyone

31:30

Like no one uses that word It's not even a concept anymore. Okay Like it's not a concept that anyone will tolerate for any reason like you're not allowed to use it in any circumstance in any situation

31:42

Because that would be shaming and that would be mean so but then the issue is that like we tolerate cowards, but we don't

31:50

We police people calling them that you know so, I mean, I think what you need is you need to like the issue is that yes these

31:57

There are public shaming rituals in the bible. They're meant to be redemptive. There is a time limit

32:03

On them, but we've lost any ability to carry out even the small First steps of it.

32:10

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So so at this point like our our biggest danger is to Read learn what this concept of shame is and obviously the left knows it, you know, the left does it?

32:22

Like the issue is the left like is the most puritanical shame oriented I mean as you said,

32:28

I mean, that's what they are I mean, they will rigorously police People who've devoted their life to the causes that they're trying to advance over minor, you know infractions of Poor vocabulary use or something like that.

32:42

So we're at a time right now where the left is doing this and on the left I mean, there's no redemption whatsoever, right?

32:50

Once you follow, you know fall afoul of the left. I mean you're irredeemable There is no hope for you scum of the earth deplorable everything else so,

33:00

I mean that's a bad example of it, obviously, but you know what we do need to relearn the concept in use it in a redemptive way and that is going to mean like harsher language and You know public acts of shaming when people do shameful things for sure, but we don't have a category for any of it really

33:19

Okay Okay. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the episode on so and it's certainly something that we need to Think about more as a society

33:28

Especially like you were saying there towards the end. I mean, yeah I mean we still do live

33:34

In some capacity in a shame on our society. It's just we have everything all backwards where we shame

33:43

Everything that is righteous and good according to to god's word and we Praise everything that god says is evil and wicked and will lead us straight to death

33:51

So that's certainly something we need to think more about and thank you tim for answering, uh all my questions on that We want to thank you guys for supporting us week in and week out for interacting with us online for Giving financially to us to help you know run the podcast and and pay for all the various things that It takes to run the podcast and put these episodes out each week

34:16

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34:32

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34:42

And until the next episode we'll see This has been another episode of bible bashed we hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion

34:52

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35:01

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35:10

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