July 17, 2025 Show with Douglas Vandermeulen on “An Exploration of Biblical & Historic Ecclesiology from a Confessional Baptist Perspective”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 17th day of July 2025.

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Before I introduce my guest and our topic for the day,

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I have an important reminder for any of you who want to reach out to the victims of that devastating flood in Kerrville, Texas, and surrounding areas.

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The Kerrville Bible Church in Kerrville, Texas, which is a solid

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Reformed and Baptistic congregation, they have on their website the ability for kind -hearted and compassionate

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Christians to donate funds to help those who have been devastated by this flood.

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And the website is kerrvillebiblechurch .org forward slash flood dash relief.

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That's k -e -r -r -villebiblechurch .org forward slash flood dash relief.

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And this Friday, tomorrow, the associate pastor of that congregation,

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Scott Christensen, who has been on this program in the past, he will be on the program giving us updates in the aftermath of that horrific, devastating flood, and will also be helping us to continue trusting in the sovereignty of God in the midst of misery.

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So I hope that you mark your calendars and tune in tomorrow to hear what

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Pastor Scott Christensen has to say. And today

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I am so thrilled to have a first -time guest, Pastor Douglas Vander Muehlen, one of two elders at Community Baptist Church of Fargo, North Dakota.

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Last night at our prayer meeting at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Pastor Simon asked for prayer for travels as he is flying out next week to Fargo, North Dakota, to attend the 3535

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Foundation Conference. And I had not heard about it until last night, and the conference is going to be on confessional ecclesiology from a

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Baptist perspective, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith being a primary source of the information in that conference, other than, first and foremost, the inerrant

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Holy Scriptures. And so I, just so happened providentially,

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I unexpectedly did not have a guest today, and I contacted

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Pastor Doug Vander Muehlen last night, and he got back to me this morning, agreed to be on the program with very little notice, and I'm thrilled to have him on the program.

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We are discussing an exploration of biblical and historic ecclesiology from a confessional

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Baptist perspective. How should Christ's church be properly structured, governed, and function?

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And we'll be telling you more about the 3535 Foundation and its upcoming conference on ecclesiology next week in Fargo, North Dakota.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Pastor Douglas Vander Muehlen.

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Hello. Yes, great to have you on the program, sir. It's wonderful to be here.

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Thank you for the opportunity. Well, to start off, let's hear something more about Community Baptist Church of Fargo, North Dakota.

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Well, we are, as far as I know, we are the only confessional

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Reformed Baptist church in the state of North Dakota, which I enjoy telling people

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I am the pastor of the largest Reformed Baptist church in North Dakota, and the smallest.

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And I've been here 21 years, and 21 years ago, they were looking for a pastor.

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Several of the elders and men in the congregation had come to the Doctrines of Grace and were interested in moving the church into a more of a

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Reformed direction, and so they were looking for somebody who could work with them on that.

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And so that's why they extended a call to us, and we've been working for 21 years to move a church that was a basic, ordinary, evangelical church into a confessional and Reformed position in doctrine, practice, and personal piety.

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Well, judging from the photographs on your website, the Lord has blessed you with a very impressive -looking building.

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Yes, we were—the congregation formed in the late 70s, and what

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I'm about to say won't mean much to anybody who's never been to Fargo, but we were the first non -farm structure on 25th

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Avenue south of the Interstate 94. And two bachelor farmers had 15 acres of land that they wanted to sell.

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It was 15 or nothing, and our congregation bought that. And so we at one time owned 15 acres that spread between 25th

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Street south to 28th Street, and over time, some of the land was sold off to help pay for buildings and that sort of thing.

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And the original building, which I've always called our machine shop, which is what we had when

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I first arrived. It was a very practical, steel outside, steel wall building inside cinder blocks, concrete floor—it's our fellowship hall now.

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And it was designed by the son of the original pastor, Bruce Young, and it was placed on the property with the idea that the eastern wall would be knocked out and eventually a sanctuary, a new sanctuary would be built.

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And the plan was to do it in two years, and in God's providence, it took 35.

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And there's an interesting story, which I won't take the time to tell, but how that evolved.

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But when we were able to have the funds to build something, we were able to ask some questions.

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We had a certain amount of financial liberty to ask questions, and we started with the premise that all architecture is art and all art has a message.

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So how would our—if our theology could drive our architecture, what would that look like?

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And so we wrestled with everything that we could think of, you know, in terms of the theological acoustics, beauty, transcendence, eminence,

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Word, and sacrament. And we tried to capture that.

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We've written a little booklet that we've, from time to time, people request. It's nothing all that special, but just lays out, you know, why do we do what we did?

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And so the effect is, as you come in through the narthex—I stole this idea from R .C.

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Sproul—you go through the narthex into the sanctuary, you pass through darkness into the light, and the first time people walk in, many times their first word is, wow.

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But it was not that it's overly beautiful. We do think it's beautiful, but it's understated.

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But it's our theology, I think, which brings the beauty, you know, the centrality of the

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Word, the communion table and the baptistry are visible, the acoustics are wonderful.

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And, you know, being that we wanted the human voice to be very much involved in both the singing and in the hearing, you know, our pulpit was designed to communicate the fixed and permanentness of the

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Word of God and highlighting the

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Word and not the man in the pulpit. And so lots of little things that were designed into it, like we had to have these railings around the baptistry, you know, to satisfy a city code.

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And so we thought about beauty was an important part of it. As you look up the word beauty, and then throughout the

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Bible, it plays a very important role, you know, things like the beauty of holiness or for Aaron's robes, for glory and for beauty.

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Beauty is a very important word throughout the Bible. And so we wanted it to be beautiful.

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But if you put these, the baptistry is off to the right as you're looking towards the pulpit, what kind of railings would you put in?

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Well, at first you think, well, we'd put in beautiful railings. But then if you put in beautiful railings, would that take away from the eye looking at the pulpit?

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We want everything in the building to pull the eye towards the pulpit. And so in the end, we put in very plain stainless steel railings, so plain that they become invisible to you and you don't even really notice them.

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So we had the freedom to think a lot of stuff like that. And I think it turned out well, but like anything, if I had to do it again,

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I have some even better ideas and do things a little differently.

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But God was very kind and gracious to us. And so thank you for noticing.

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No, it's hard not to notice when you're looking at your website. And by the way, folks, for those of you who want to investigate more about Community Baptist Church of Fargo, North Dakota, their website is cbcfargo .com,

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CBC for Community Baptist Church, fargo .com, and you can find out more about this fine congregation.

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Now, introduce to my audience the 3535

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Foundation. And just to put our listeners at ease, this is not some weird eschatological prediction of something happening 1 ,510 years from now in 3535.

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That's actually the address of your congregation. Yes, it is not reference to the

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Zeger and Evans No. 1 in the year 2525. A very, very pessimistic song about the future.

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They're definitely not post -colonialists, that's for sure. Well, when we were seeking to establish the foundation and a title, we thought about a lot of things, and we decided we wanted something very nondescript.

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We wanted to fly under the radar as much as possible so that we could kind of have some freedom to pick and choose the things that we want to support and build up.

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And so that's how we got its name. And there obviously is a passion that you have, and I'm assuming your fellow elder and other members of your congregation, a passion for accurate and biblically faithful and confessional ecclesiology.

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Is there any reason why this one area got your heart pumping to the point where you you've already had one conference, you're having another one next week, and you're planning another one that are all focused on this subject of ecclesiology?

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Perhaps you could, first of all, define that for us and then explain why this has become such a passion of yours.

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Well, I appreciate the question, and my slowness to jump on an answer is because it's the answer is huge and comes from a lot of different angles.

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I'll start with the simple one. We believe that the 1689

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London Baptist Confession is the most mature and Reformed of all of the great

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Reformational creeds and confessions. And the one thing that the

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Reformed Baptists bring to the table is our ecclesiology. Amen. And if it is truly biblical and more according to the mind of Christ, then we should know it, and we don't.

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I would imagine if the different pastors who might be listening, they took a time to do a pop quiz with their congregation and hand out little blue books like we used to get in school when you had to write out essays to your final exam, and asked their people in the pew, write out your understanding of ecclesiology, what kind of responses would we get?

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And there's two things, and we can develop this more as we go along.

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But in Matthew 16, Jesus says, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

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The power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ is manifested in the local church.

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That is central to our confession. Five times in chapter 26, the word power will come up, a couple times the word of authority, twice the idea of the mind of Christ.

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And we need to know what that mind is. It's interesting in Matthew 16, right after Jesus saying,

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I will build my church, and the binding and the loosing, the keys of the kingdom, he begins to tell them that I'm going to go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the

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Pharisees and the scribes. And Peter's response is, no, Lord, and proceeds to block him on that.

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And as you well know, Jesus' response is, get behind me, Satan, for you set your mind on the things of men, not the things of God.

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And the very next thing in the same chapter, Jesus turns to the disciples and talks about picking up your cross, following me, dying daily, lose your life and gain it, gain your life, lose it, the cost of discipleship.

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All those things are there for a reason. And I believe it's very possible for us to miss the very power and authority of Christ in our local churches, because if we don't build the church, our local churches, according to the mind of Christ, grounded in the power and authority of Christ, as our confession says, then why should we claim the promise and the protection of Christ?

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I lived and pastored many years in California, and we were there in the 1989

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Loma Prieta earthquake, which was a 7 .1, I think it was, if I remember correctly. A particular family in our church lived up, we lived up in the

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Santa Cruz Mountains, a particular family in the church. The house had been through many earthquakes, but in this particular earthquake, the house slid off the foundations and was sliding down the side of the hill.

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Turned out, the house had never been bolted to the foundation. Wow. So it had a foundation, it laid on the foundation, but it was not bolted to the foundation.

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And the right amount of pressure, the right angle, pushed that house that had survived many earthquakes, pushed it right off the foundation.

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The owner was in the house at the time, and she was in the third floor. She said she was surf -riding down the side of the hill, and you wonder how many of our struggles as churches stem from the fact that we don't really know the mind of Christ and how he's building this church.

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So the second part of that, and again, I could elaborate on that much more, but as we got involved in reading about some of these things,

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Matthew Bingham, who'll be one of our key speakers next week, cites that in Boston alone—and these are my dates, not necessarily his dates—but roughly between 1640 and 1660, 1670, over 250 books were written on ecclesiology.

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Wow. And it becomes a very important subject.

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Last year's conference, we had Chad Van Dixhorn and Jim Rinahan as our key speakers, and part of it was to introduce the debate at Westminster Assembly on ecclesiology.

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You know, from the Westminster standards, they only have five paragraphs. Mm -hmm. And in Chad, Dr.

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Van Dixhorn had written an article that caught our attention, or a chapter in a book by Hunter Powell on the crisis of ecclesiastical crisis of the

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British Empire, I think is the title, or something like that. And in that,

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Dr. Van Dixhorn closes his chapter with, there was not an ecclesiology at Westminster Assembly.

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They were ecclesiologies. There was a debate. There were those who were what he might call clerical

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Presbyterians, who were very much against John Cotton and his keys of the kingdom.

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There were those who were of a stripe that were sympathetic, like Rutherford. And then there were the

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Congregationalists, like Thomas Goodwin. And— Now, I have a print of that famous painting of the

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Westminster Assembly, when I think it might be Goodwin, or one of the other

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Congregationalists who is standing up in the midst of the Assembly giving his presentation. Mm -hmm.

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Well, they were debating. They debated this. And what

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Dr. Van Dixhorn will say is they punted. They did not resolve their differences.

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And there were some reasons for that. It wasn't just cowardly. There was an ending war and all sorts of political things.

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But between the 1640s and 1677, certainly, with the actual writing of our confession, on both sides of the

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Atlantic, there was a tremendous amount of ink spilled on ecclesiology. And you know that John Owen himself picked up a copy of Cotton to refute it because it was so dangerous, he was told, and he becomes persuaded of his

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Congregationalism. And so, if we just take the 250 number that Matthew Bingham offers just in Boston, in the

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New England area, let's assume that 150 of them didn't need to be written.

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So you have 100 books now on ecclesiology. Assuming some type of perspective of thesis, antithesis, resolution, new thesis, antithesis, resolution, what were they writing?

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What were they debating? What was it so important that it would take that many books?

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And Benjamin Keech, I think it's 1697, will write his own book, which everyone who comes to the conference gets a copy of.

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We've transcribed it, and we can make it available to people. But he writes it to his own congregation.

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It's basically his application of John Cotton's Keys of the Kingdom and John Owen's book,

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The Duties of Church Members. And in his introduction to it, he talks about the,

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I believe the word is voluminous, voluminous amount of books on ecclesiology that have been written, so much so that no one can afford to own them all, much less read them.

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And he also noted, which is very important, which we can unpack this, that not a single one of them was written by what we would call a

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Reformed Baptist, because the

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Reformed Baptists didn't think of themselves as Reformed Baptists. They thought of themselves as Baptistic Congregationalists.

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They identified with Cotton and Owen and Goodwin and Nye and these other people.

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And they're reading that stuff, their stuff, because they see themselves as part of this movement, and this movement was so important because the power and authority of Christ, where does that rest?

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Does it reside in a bishop, whether it be the Bishop of Rome or the

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Bishop of Canterbury appointed by the King, or does the power and authority rest in Presbyterian synods, or does the power and authority of Christ rest in the local church?

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And our confession in paragraph four calls the Pope the Antichrist. Why? Because at some level, the appointed bishop is usurping the authority of Christ.

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Well, William Kiffin will write an introduction to Thomas Goodwin's book—I believe it's entitled

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The Glory of Zion, and by Zion, he means the church—The

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Glory of Zion. And in that introduction, William Kiffin, one of the signers of our confession, if I'm not mistaken, one of the few who signed both the 1644 and 1689—I might be wrong on that, but I think he signed both—in his introduction, he says he calls both the

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Anglican and Presbyterian models of church government Antichrist, because for him, he didn't see a lot of difference between Presbyterian or Anglicanism in terms of its removing the authority of Christ from the local church, just as Roman Catholicism had.

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And men went to prison or risked prison. The reason why John Cotton comes to America is because Bishop Laude is coming after him.

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He's no longer teaching the Anglican view of government. He's moving congregationally. And even though he's been a very popular and successful pastor for,

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I think, 20 years, he flees to Boston because these things are a matter of life and death.

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By the way, I was in error. It was Philip Nye in the famous painting by John Rogers Herbert of the

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Westminster Assembly, and Philip Nye is standing up and giving a speech against Presbyterian church government.

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Now, Cotton wrote The Keys of the Kingdom, and as my understanding—and

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I'm not a historian, so everything I say historically might need to be fact -checked—but gives a copy of The Keys of the

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Kingdom to Nye and to Goodwood, and gives them permission to publish it whenever they think it's most strategic to do so.

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And they do, and it becomes part of the ecclesiastical debate at the assembly.

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Well, we have to go to our first commercial break, and when we return, after we have my guest today, since he is a first -time guest,

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Pastor Douglas Vandermuhlen will give a summary of his salvation testimony, as all of our first guests do on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, and then we will continue in our discussion going deeper into the subject of ecclesiology, coming from a biblical, historical, and confessional perspective of the 1689

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London Baptist Confession of Faith, which, for those of you who have some kind of a knee -jerk reaction to the mention of confessions of faith and the use of them, that this is somehow a violation of Sola Scriptura.

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Nothing could be farther from the truth, because the London Baptist Confession of Faith makes it clear that it is not on par with the

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Scriptures in the pages of the confession itself, and it is filled with biblical references as to why the

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Baptists who adopted this confession believe these things. They believe them because they're scriptural.

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But we are going to talk more about that when we return. And before I forget,

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I wanted to let you know that my friend and former pastor Mike Gaydosh of Solid Ground Christian Books wanted to let my listeners know that if you mention this interview with Douglas Vandermuhlen, you are going to receive a 50 % discount on the 1689

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So it doesn't matter how many copies you purchase, you will get 50 % off. Their website is solid -ground -books .com.

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Don't go away. We are going to be right back, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Be prepared. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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James White here of Alpha and Omega Ministries announcing that this

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September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.,

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I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pre -Pastor's

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Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 30 p .m.,

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I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the Pre -Pastor's Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

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That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Douglas Vandermuhlen, one of two elders at Community Baptist Church in Fargo, North Dakota, and if you just tuned us in, we are going to be addressing the 3535

42:32

Foundation Conference, which is starting next week, and we'll be giving you the exact details on how to register and so on.

42:45

Today we are addressing the theme, An Exploration of Biblical and Historical Ecclesiology from a

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Confessional Baptist Perspective—How Should Christ's Church Be Properly Structured, Governed, and Function?

42:59

And as we always do with first -time guests, Pastor Vandermuhlen, we would like you now to give a summary of your salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which you were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you closer to himself and saved you?

43:26

Well, I was raised in a family that was very religious.

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We went faithfully to the Episcopal Church as a boy, both in California where I was born and in Virginia, the

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Church of the Good Shepherd in Northern Virginia, Burke, Virginia, and was, of course, baptized and went through confirmation.

43:56

I think I still have my little medals I got for all the perfect attendance for Sunday school throughout the years, and was an acolyte, president of the junior high and senior high youth group, and just did those things because that was part of the way

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I was raised. I don't remember missing

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Sundays very often, but my view of God was mostly very superstitious, you know, a very pagan, didn't want to mess up because God could get at me and that sort of thing.

44:40

Certainly no sense of gospel. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, or maybe it was just my own hard heart as a non -regenerate, but I don't recall the gospel really being declared in such a way that I would feel a need to repent and believe on the

44:57

Lord Jesus Christ. And went off to college at Arizona State University in the mid -70s on a swimming scholarship and lived my life, and I was moral in the eyes of men, you know, but no real fear of God.

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And I'd hoped to go to the Olympics, and swimming was—I'd done other sports growing up.

45:29

I'd done track and football and things such as that, like a lot of young men, but swimming was the sport that I excelled at enough to go somewhere.

45:40

But after my sophomore year, I had some difficulties and was partially medical, whatever, but I lost my scholarship, lost going to school, and that was important in my journey because I had nothing now.

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My whole life had been built around that dream and working out five hours a day and that sort of thing.

46:12

And so I ended up moving to Pasadena to live with a friend of mine from ASU, and in the middle of all that, started to go back to church, mostly just to meet people.

46:32

And in there, I remember there was a visiting pastor who was teaching one

46:38

Sunday and made some comment about reading the Bible for yourself.

46:43

I thought that was a novel concept. And I went out and I bought my very first Bible at the mall, the

46:51

Arcadia mall, and bought a King James Bible because it's the only one I'd ever heard of, and so I thought it must be trustworthy.

47:00

But I started reading the Gospel of Matthew and didn't understand much of anything, and I was working in a machine shop at the time, and there was this man in the machine shop who was always reading his

47:13

Bible. Every break we got, every lunch he got, he'd go out to his car and he'd be reading his

47:18

Bible. So I thought I'd ask him questions. So I started asking him questions about the

47:26

Bible and this, that, and the other, and one day I'm working at the table lathe and cutting something, and he comes to me and he says, do

47:35

I speak in tongues? Now, I may have gone to church my whole life, but I had zero

47:42

Bible knowledge. And I looked at him, totally confused, and said, do you mean do

47:50

I speak Spanish? And he said, if you were a good

47:56

Christian, you would know what I mean. Well, that was the very first time that anybody had challenged my

48:05

Christianity. And I don't remember if I said it or just thought it, but what went through my head was, what do you mean

48:14

I'm not a Christian? I go to church, I'm not a Buddhist, drive

48:21

American cars, and I vote Republican. That is in the confession, isn't it?

48:34

I was totally befuddled. How am I not a Christian? Well, then

48:40

I called the assistant minister, the church, I don't know why

48:46

I didn't call the minister, but I called the assistant minister, and Reverend Spoon, and I told him the story

48:56

I just said, and he kind of explained to me what tongues was.

49:03

And his daughter, who is about my age, Kathy, got on the phone, and she's invited me to Bible study at a

49:11

Bible church, Sierra Madre Congregational Church. And I said, okay, and I went and started studying the

49:23

Bible with a bunch of other college -age people, and one thing led to another, going to a church that taught the

49:33

Bible, went up to a forest home for Christian camp for college students, and weekly

49:38

Bible study, and eventually came to embrace the idea of the need of a Savior, and confessed

49:49

Christ and was baptized. And then I called my parents, who were living in Ohio at the time, to tell them

49:57

I had just become a Christian, and the first thing my mom said was, well, my

50:04

God's telling me that you're to disown you, because I'd gone off on some weird end, and so that was the response.

50:15

And there would be several occasions over the next few years where I would have to count the cost, which

50:22

I was very thankful for. I can say that by the time my mom passed that we'd gotten past all of that.

50:31

That was no longer an issue. But my parents really wanted me to go to school, back in school, and so I still didn't really have anything

50:43

I wanted to study, per se. And some of my friends were going to Pepperdine University in Malibu, and all

50:50

I knew is that that was a Christian school. Didn't understand what Church of Christ or anything like that was, and so we went there for one trimester.

51:04

No, one full school year. But again, that was an interesting situation, because you had a high percentage of non -believers at that school at the time.

51:15

I don't know what it is like anymore, and you had a lot of Church of Christ kids, and very few that would be coming from strict evangelical churches.

51:29

And I got caught into a situation where I was not religious enough for the

51:35

Church of Christ people, some of which would question my salvation because I wasn't part of them, and I was way too religious for the secular kids.

51:46

And so I, again, had to learn to stand on my own, and that cost me something at the time.

51:56

But it was there, I believe, that God called me for the ministry. I didn't think of it necessarily as a pastoral ministry, but I had won two athletic awards at Arizona State for my swimming, and at the time

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I was very proud of them. I was wearing my Arizona State litter jacket around campus one day, and somebody asked if I went to Arcadia High School.

52:23

That just, you know, really took the wind out of my sails.

52:29

And I had been reading at the time in the Gospel of John, John 6, where Jesus rebukes the people who had been…He had fed the 5 ,000, and they're coming to find

52:41

Him, and He rebuked them, because you seek Me not because you saw signs and believed, but because you ate and were filled.

52:50

And He said, labor for that which endures into eternal life. And that really convicted me that I'd lived a good life, a wholesome life.

53:02

I'd given myself to wholesome activities, primarily sports and that sort of thing. And in this one comment about this litter jacket,

53:11

I realized that all that I had achieved and all that I had done was fading, right?

53:18

It didn't matter. It's not wrong. It's not bad. It just, it's not the kind of thing that endures into eternal life.

53:26

And that's where I can, pretty sure I can find the very spot on the campus where I was praying and really struggling with a lot of things, where I came to realize what

53:37

I'd like to do for the rest of my life was give myself to helping people know about Christ.

53:43

R .A. Amen. And we're going to pick up on your story right when we come back from the midway break. Sorry to interrupt you.

53:49

But don't go away, folks. We're going to be right back after these messages. Puritan Reformed is a

53:55

Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

54:05

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

54:12

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

54:25

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

54:31

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

54:37

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

54:45

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com.

54:53

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

55:11

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

55:19

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

55:29

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

55:37

Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

55:46

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

55:52

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

55:57

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

56:03

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

56:12

Protestant reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

56:23

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

56:30

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

56:36

That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831.

56:43

That's 678 -954 -7831. If you visit, tell them

56:48

Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and a toy from County Kildare, Arlington, sent you.

57:17

...of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

57:27

Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.

57:38

At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

57:44

Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation, and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

57:55

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

58:12

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

58:20

God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

58:25

Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit Lindbrookbaptist .org.

58:32

That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

58:45

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

58:50

The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. So Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

59:13

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

59:35

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

59:42

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

59:55

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:00:05

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:00:13

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:00:18

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:00:30

I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:00:36

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

01:00:44

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our

01:00:59

Triune God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

01:01:08

In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

01:01:14

Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

01:01:22

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

01:01:28

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

01:01:36

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

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01:01:51

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01:04:11

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for listening. Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White at the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas, and the

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01:06:11

Welcome back. Before I return to my conversation with Pastor Douglas Vander Meulen and the upcoming 3535

01:06:20

Foundation Conference next week in Fargo, North Dakota, on ecclesiology, before I return to that conversation,

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01:09:16

chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Douglas Vander Meulen, pastor of Community Baptist Church of Fargo, North Dakota.

01:09:26

And we are continuing our discussion on ecclesiology from a biblical and historic perspective, and even more specifically from a confessional

01:09:39

Baptist perspective. And right when I had to cut you off because of a station break, brother, you were talking about you can remember the exact spot, you believe, where it was when you knew that you were going to dedicate your entire life, the remainder of your life, to serving people and declaring the gospel.

01:09:57

Can you pick up where you left off there? Oh yeah, that just got me now for the very first time in my life focused on something that was eternal and ended up transferring away from Pepperdine, went to Cedarville College, now

01:10:15

Cedarville University, and went on to seminary at Talbot Theological Seminary, and congregated in my local church, and been doing the ministry now for about 40 years.

01:10:29

Praise God. Well, going back to our particular conversation, as you are fully aware, ecclesiology is, next to the ordinances or sacraments of the church, the largest cause or source or focus of division amongst people who profess to believe in Reformed theology.

01:10:58

In particular, I'm referring to our Presbyterian brethren. We tend to, as Baptists, even when those churches are outside of the

01:11:12

Reformed faith, we have historically been a group of Christians who did not like the concept of denominations when that entails a hierarchical structure that goes beyond the local elders of a local congregation.

01:11:36

We have always believed in independent and autonomous congregations, and with Christ as the only head of the church and the biblically -ordained elders in the congregations being the only earthly leaders.

01:12:01

But there's even more division about those who prefer and believe in and practice elder rule rather than congregational rule.

01:12:14

And if you could help us out with these divisions in the body of Christ, even in the

01:12:19

Reformed community. Well, the 17th -century ecclesiastical debates that happened in London and New England are absolutely vital to understanding a lot of what you just summarized so wonderfully.

01:12:36

And one of the lectures that Matthew Bingham will be giving at the conference is entitled something like,

01:12:43

Why Did the Particular Baptist Stop Baptizing Babies? And the very short answer to that is ecclesiology.

01:12:52

The Baptists didn't stop baptizing infants because they said, oh, look, there's only believers being baptized in the church.

01:13:00

That would come. But the reason, the antecedent to that had to do with their ecclesiology.

01:13:11

And the rustling with ecclesiology goes all the way back to 1535, when

01:13:17

King Henry leaves the Roman Catholic Church. You now have in England a self -consciously

01:13:27

Christian nation. I'm not saying it was consistently Christian. Everybody was Christian, but they self -identified as a

01:13:34

Christian and non -Catholic, right? So in 1535, grossly oversimplifying everything, one day you're at your

01:13:46

Catholic parish with your Catholic priest, and the next Sunday it's no longer a Catholic parish and there is no priest.

01:13:54

What is the church going to look like? And that's essentially the source of the

01:14:00

Book of Common Prayer, was to be a stopgap. It wasn't meant to continue on the way it has.

01:14:06

It was a stopgap. We're now no longer Catholics. We're Protestants. Here's how you're going to worship.

01:14:12

Here are some songs to sing. Here are some prayers. Here are some suggestions for preaching.

01:14:19

And that was not universally accepted. And this begins what I think is a fascinating 154 years from King Henry to the public signing of our confession, a question on—it really revolves around the 19th and 20th article of the 39

01:14:39

Articles—what is true worship and who has the authority to decide? And one of the things they wrestled with was, is baptism a part of worship?

01:14:49

And many people might be surprised to say the prevailing thought at the time was no. Baptism—and you go back and look at church architecture, your baptistry was often in a separate building, separate from the sanctuary, because who got baptized?

01:15:06

Well, people who were outside the church. And as people started to question that now, that now that we have the opportunity to question things in 1535 and following, the thought was, well, no.

01:15:23

Baptism was given to the church, right? Think of the Great Commission. Go into the world and make disciples and baptize them.

01:15:32

So, if baptism is part of worship, again, what is true worship and who gets to decide?

01:15:40

Well, and this becomes the foundation for what will later be called the regulative principle of worship.

01:15:46

For something to be a biblical worship, it had to be, obviously, one, biblical, and two, it had to be free.

01:15:54

Free as in my conscience is not being bound by somebody else to do this, say this, believe this.

01:16:03

My conscience is bound only by the Word of God, as Luther would say, for example, at Worms.

01:16:09

Okay, well, then that started to bring about some changes, and about this time, it raises an issue of who can be a member of a church.

01:16:25

And 1 Corinthians 1 .2 becomes a key verse amongst the congregationalists, because it's defining the church in such a way that no child or infant would be part of it.

01:16:39

It says that where Paul says, to the church of God, which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our

01:16:52

Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. And so they're starting to think about, well, wait a minute, in England, to be a citizen, you had to be a member of the church, and all members of the church were citizens, and they're starting to go, well, that doesn't match your

01:17:11

New Testament understanding of ecclesiology. And so then, as they started to think about the church is made up of believers, and baptism is part of the worship service, then they started to raise the question, well, is the infant free?

01:17:32

Did anybody ask the infant if it wanted to be baptized? And now that it's baptized, it's being raised under the conditions and responsibilities to uphold and improve their baptism.

01:17:42

Does that equal New Testament worship? And who gets to decide whether or not that's biblical?

01:17:50

Is it the bishop? Is it your geographically oriented elders? Or is it in the congregation?

01:17:59

And out of that will come the Baptistic Congregationalists. And again, they wrote a lot, and they were rustling a lot.

01:18:09

There was so much ink spilled on this, because it matters where is the power and authority of Christ.

01:18:17

So, where that comes to the local church, and why John Cotton's book is so important.

01:18:23

In Matthew 16, verse 19, Jesus says he's given us the keys of the kingdom to bind and to loose, to open and to close, right?

01:18:36

Well, keys, there's plural. What are the keys?

01:18:42

Can anybody name them? Right? If you come to my church, you should be able to ask any member of my congregation, what are the keys of the kingdom?

01:18:51

What do they open? What are they for? And what is your responsibility for it? And when you talk about elder rule, this comes to answer that exactly.

01:19:05

For what Cotton will talk about is essentially there are four keys—the key of knowledge, the key of order, the key of authority, and the key of freedom.

01:19:14

And the key of knowledge and the key of freedom are given to all believers.

01:19:20

The key of order is given to the congregation, and they are to order their own life by the power and authority of Christ.

01:19:28

They are to order one another's lives—think Matthew 18—but they are also to order the lives of their elders—1

01:19:35

Corinthians 9, Galatians 5, and chapter 6. And then there's the key of authority, in which the elders are to bind the minds and hearts of the congregation by the

01:19:51

Word of God, not their preferences, not their opinions, not their perspectives, but by the

01:19:56

Word of God alone. And the proper exercise of those keys becomes part of what this great debate will be.

01:20:06

And this is where we would say the vast majority of people who are in church today, even amongst our

01:20:13

Reformed Baptist churches, don't know any of that backstory. They couldn't name the keys of the kingdom, much less apply them.

01:20:22

And yet we all want to claim the divine protection and power of Christ in Matthew 16, where he mentions the keys.

01:20:30

And so what we wanted to do as a foundation, through four different things right now—transcription of some of these older books, conferences, scholarships to seminary and postdoctoral work, and church planting—to help create a place where some of these things can be discussed.

01:20:53

For example, at the conference—and this is very important—I often will tell people, when you think about our foundation, think different.

01:21:04

I don't mean differently. I mean grammatically what I said, different. This is different.

01:21:11

Our conference is different. You're going to come, someone will come, and if things go according to plan, people will go away with more questions than they arrived with.

01:21:24

They will go away not having been told, go home and do this, this, and this. What we want to do is help reintroduce, through competent historians, the arguments, the debates, the struggles, the questions that were being asked, and supply those who attend with ample opportunity, begin to discuss and interact with one another, and send home with a lot of books—some of them primary sources, some of them not, some modern works—to begin reading about our ecclesiology, and how the congregationalism arose, and how did the

01:22:03

Baptistic congregation arise, so that when a person picks up to read their confession, they're reading it intelligently, not because we told them how to read it, but helping them start to discover that, and through the journey of reimmersing into this great historical reality, the 17th century ecclesiastical debates.

01:22:29

Fascinating. And just so our listeners know, when it comes to the 1689

01:22:35

London Baptist Confession of Faith, or the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, as it's also called, the discussion of ecclesiology is in chapter 26, titled

01:22:50

The Church, and there are 15 articles or paragraphs that highlight this issue in the

01:22:57

Confession, all with biblical citations for proof as to why the framers of the

01:23:09

Confession believe these things. And of course, it is almost identical to the

01:23:14

Westminster Confession of Faith. It was purposely nearly completely duplicated, with the exception of those things that are uniquely

01:23:27

Baptistic or Baptist. And can you give your brief explanation as to why the

01:23:37

Reformed Baptists didn't just settle for the First London Baptist Confession of Faith, or why they didn't even create an entirely new confession for their

01:23:51

Second London Confession, and rather just copied most of the

01:23:57

Westminster? Well, I think it's not fair to say they copied most of Westminster, because they did, but they also is extensively influenced by the

01:24:10

Savoy Confession, right? And the Savoy being the congregational. And my understanding would be, yes, the people who,

01:24:20

Cox and those who would produce our confession, wanted to identify, we're not some fringe group, we are inside the

01:24:29

Reformed camp, we're inside this ongoing conversation and debate made up of a variety of sources,

01:24:38

Presbyterian and Congregational, and they were very much identifying themselves as Congregationalists.

01:24:46

One of the interesting things I think will come up at the conference is, when did the Baptists, thinking

01:24:52

Reformed Baptists, when did they start to think of them as uniquely Baptist, as opposed to we're

01:24:57

Congregationalists? And because for a very significant amount of time, they, if you could go back in our little

01:25:06

DeLorean and show up into London and approach Kiffin or Knowles or these guys and say, are you guys

01:25:13

Baptist? They'd look at you like, what are you asking me? We're Congregationalists. And they were reading the

01:25:21

Congregationalists, they were studying, they were fellowship, they were involved very much in the Congregational way.

01:25:28

And so when they adopt what they do, it's because they want to identify with what's been going on.

01:25:38

But at the same time, as I made reference to these 250 books or more that are being written, there's so much discussion going on in New England and in England itself over what is the nature of the church.

01:25:55

And we are the product, the benefit, we are the fruit, our confession is the fruit of that ongoing, very serious debate by Presbyterians of all stripes, by Congregationalists.

01:26:11

And so our confession, chapter 26, didn't drop just from heaven. It is a product of these multiple decades of great titans of the

01:26:22

Reformed faith debating the nature of the church. And so that's where I would believe it is the more mature, more

01:26:36

Reformed document. It's not the weak sister. It is the mature brother of the

01:26:43

Congregationalists and especially the Presbyterians. Yes, and I believe that are very unreformed in their ecclesiology.

01:26:53

Yeah, and that's why I have heard when Presbyterians and Pato Baptists have accused

01:27:04

Reformed Baptists of using the term

01:27:09

Reformed Baptist illegitimately and saying that there's no such thing as a Reformed Baptist and so on,

01:27:15

I have heard Reformed Baptists respond, we're even more Reformed because we departed in a much greater way from the baggage of Rome.

01:27:26

Would you agree with that? Yes, and I'll give you an example. We all love

01:27:32

Karl Truman, and Karl Truman's a great, great, great brother and love listening to him.

01:27:38

His lectures on Luther were some of the best things I've ever heard. But I remember listening to his podcast and someone asked him, what does it mean to be

01:27:47

Reformed? And I don't really remember his answer per se, but it was a pretty stock answer. He had to hold to a confession, you know, a

01:27:55

Reformed confession. He had to, you know, I think he talked about the doctrines of sovereign grace, whatever.

01:28:01

He had several really parts to his answer that I think everybody would agree with.

01:28:07

But then he ended with, and you have to hold to some form of geographically -oriented church government.

01:28:17

And that's why I can't remember whatever else he said. And I thought, he just unreformed

01:28:24

John Owen. He just unreformed

01:28:30

Thomas Goodwin. And again, going back to Kiffin, Kiffin is serious when he says, your form of government is either

01:28:43

Christian or anti -Christian, and it really has to do with where you place the authority of Christ.

01:28:49

And the Presbyterians placed the authority of Christ not in the local church. In fact,

01:28:54

I have a Presbyterian elder friend, a very good friend of mine, and he was talking about someone in ordination, and somebody asked him, you know, to whom were the keys given?

01:29:07

And the answer was to the church. Because remember, it's the

01:29:12

Orthodox Presbyterian church, not churches. So the power of Christ is given to this geographically -oriented thing.

01:29:21

Is that correct? Or is it given to the church's world?

01:29:28

And that's no small thing. And so when the pastor gets into the pulpit, or the pastor's administering baptism or communion, or the congregation is going to a brother in private or exercising church discipline, as they're praying, as they are calling a man and separating him off as a gifted brother, are they exercising the authority and power of Christ to do so?

01:29:55

Or is it just an empty formality that we've done because, after all, we're Baptists, and that's what they do?

01:30:02

Yes. And would you— Stop. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was just going to say, would you agree with me, what

01:30:09

I have told some folks who have a different ecclesiology, church polity?

01:30:18

I have said that although no earthly system is foolproof, because we're dealing with sinners, every one of us is a sinner, but a plurality of elders is a bulwark to prevent the rising of a tyrant in the church, and congregationalism is a bulwark against the rising of tyrants, plural, in the church.

01:30:48

Would that be an accurate way of combating the folks who are against the way we view ecclesiology?

01:30:57

I think it can be. Of course, your elders are a bulwark against the rising tyranny of the congregation.

01:31:04

Right, yes. Yeah, so you've got a—and that's the beauty of the book

01:31:10

The Keys of the Kingdom, and everyone that comes to the conference gets a copy of The Keys of the Kingdom. It's such an important book to read.

01:31:16

I'm not saying Cotton got it all right. Again, he was the—if

01:31:21

I may say, it's a little bit of a historical oversimplification, but he's kind of the headwaters of all this.

01:31:29

And so much that will be written afterwards is advancing, again, the thesis, antithesis, resolution.

01:31:35

What do we mean by that? But it's important because if we take seriously the power of Christ, we want that to be manifested in the church.

01:31:47

So I was—I don't know if this illustration will work. It works for me because it's for my life.

01:31:53

It might not work for anyone else. Beyond swimming, I played high school football, played left quarterback, and our coach drilled into us, know your position.

01:32:06

And on certain plays, I had to be in certain places on the field. All these years later,

01:32:12

I can tell you exactly where I'm supposed to be on the field. When the ball is snapped and the flow of offense is away from me, comes towards me, straight back, option play,

01:32:24

I can tell you exactly. I can't get there anymore. I know where I'm supposed to be.

01:32:33

I know my position. For example, when I was in high school, wishbone offense was big, big, big.

01:32:39

And so the quarterback snaps the ball, and he puts it in the belly of the fullback. That's the linebacker's responsibility.

01:32:47

Quarterback pulls the ball out and comes down the line, and he gets to the defensive end. That's the defensive end's responsibility.

01:32:54

He takes the quarterback. As the corner, I take the trailback. The safety comes up to force the pitch.

01:33:02

If the quarterback does not pitch the ball, what do I do? Do I try to tackle the quarterback? No, not my job.

01:33:08

That's the defensive end's job. My job is to be at that trailback, because the quarterback can pitch the ball 5, 10, 15, 20 yards downfield.

01:33:18

Who's going to tackle him? I'd better stay with that guy. I have to know my position. Jesus, in His authority and His power, is building

01:33:29

His church with, as our confession says, the mind of Christ. He has a plan.

01:33:35

He has determined a way in which He will build them, and that is the exercising of these keys,

01:33:41

Matthew 16, 19. And so every member of the team, if you will—the congregation, the deacons, the elders—have to know the keys.

01:33:51

They need to know the plays. They need to know the responsibilities. They need to know how they exercise these, because that is how, because we are all sinners, we keep everything in check and balanced, like you mentioned, but it's also how we can claim the divine power and protection of the

01:34:09

Lord Jesus Christ. And if we don't know them, my junior year, they moved me from quarterback to tight end.

01:34:18

I'd never, I don't think I had, I was thinking about this, I don't know that I even got a playbook. I didn't know my position.

01:34:23

I was brand new to it. And they'd call these, the call play and the huddle in practice. And I'd go to the offensive line,

01:34:29

I'd turn to the tackle, I'd go, who am I supposed to hit? Well, he didn't know who I was supposed to hit, he knew who he was supposed to hit, right?

01:34:35

I didn't know. If you don't know your position, you can't play it well.

01:34:42

And that's what I think, why it was so important for our guys to wrestle with these things and embrace it in this wonderful 15 -paragraph statement, to give the church an understanding how we might exercise these things.

01:35:00

And so at your church, the authority of Christ is being manifested. In my church, the authority of Christ might be manifested.

01:35:07

It might look a little differently at our place because Christ is doing something a little different there than here, just like in your individual life is being sanctified, we know where it ends up, we're all conformed to the image of Christ, but how he's bringing you along is a little different.

01:35:24

We don't all grow and mature and sanctify in exactly the same pattern, right? And that he deals with his individual churches.

01:35:32

And so because I'm confident of the lordship of Christ over your church and his power,

01:35:38

I can relax and let you guys grow and mature, and you guys can let me relax and grow and mature, knowing that Christ is doing something.

01:35:50

What we want to do is encourage one another like living stones to build up one another, trusting that Christ is doing this great and incredible supernatural work.

01:36:03

And I think so much of that has been lost for who knows what reasons upon the modern church goer.

01:36:10

Amen. We do have a listener, Jackson in Newark, Delaware.

01:36:18

And Jackson says, if the 1689

01:36:23

London Baptist Confession is so clear regarding its congregationalism, why do you think it is that over the past half century, so many

01:36:34

Reformed Baptist congregations fell into the grievous error of authoritarian elder rule?

01:36:44

That's a really great question, and I have my opinion on that.

01:36:50

I would say for a variety of reasons. Number one, I would say, like myself, when

01:36:58

I had started to embrace Reformed doctrine and I come to ecclesiology, who am

01:37:04

I turning to read? The Presbyterians. What good ecclesiastical books do we have?

01:37:13

Even key technologies in the 17th century, none of the Baptists were writing them. So you read

01:37:19

Bannerman, you read Cotton, you read whoever, but you're not reading our guys.

01:37:25

And so eventually, we just kind of assumed a Presbyterian model. Secondly, I think because of the rise of the celebrity preacher, our good friend and co -laborer in the kingdom,

01:37:38

John MacArthur, just went home to be with the Lord. God bless him. What a wonderful, faithful preacher.

01:37:46

But he certainly wasn't confessional. He did not embrace 1689 ecclesiology as kind of some hybrid of Presbyterianism.

01:37:56

And so a lot of people would turn to a great man like that and say, well, he's right on this, this, and this.

01:38:03

He must be right on his ecclesiology. And I don't think he was.

01:38:11

And again, I don't say that in any way to diminish the man. He was obviously a great, faithful preacher and a friend of Christ.

01:38:21

But we have not gone back to read the sources. We have not gone back.

01:38:26

I remember somewhere, I don't know where I got this, but I remember when I buy books, I always read the footnotes.

01:38:32

I believe that the footnotes are the most important part of any book, because I want to know who

01:38:39

I'm reading, who influenced the guy I'm reading. That's what I'm trying to say, all right?

01:38:45

And so we read the Confession, probably edited, written by Nehemiah Cox.

01:38:52

Who was Nehemiah Cox reading on ecclesiology? Did he come up with it on his own?

01:39:00

What key books, what key authors, what debates was he involved in? How was he influenced?

01:39:08

And exactly how did that come to be embodied in the Confession? And those are things that we haven't studied.

01:39:16

And so when we don't know these things, we just kind of drift and become, well, the Presbyterians have written a lot on it.

01:39:22

We'll go read Bannerman. We'll go read the Westminster Confession. We'll go read

01:39:27

Calvin. We'll go look at who seems to have a successful ministry in our day, and just kind of develop our ecclesiology in a similar manner to the way in which we get the measles.

01:39:41

We just kind of catch it. Well, we do have another questioner before we go to the final break of the program.

01:39:56

We have Weston in Bonifay, Florida, and Weston says,

01:40:04

Why do you think it is that so many Reformed Baptist churches remain overly isolationist and do not even take advantage of the final chapter in the 26th chapter of the

01:40:24

Confession? And he's talking, I'm assuming, about getting other like -minded churches involved in a dispute when you can't resolve it.

01:40:33

Yeah, paragraph 15 of chapter 26. I think there's a variety of reasons.

01:40:38

One, I would always link it back to the fact that a lot of Reformed Baptist churches don't really understand their ecclesiology.

01:40:46

Therefore, they don't really understand associationalism. Secondly, a situation like I'm in in North Dakota, I mentioned earlier, as best

01:40:57

I know, we're the only confessionally Reformed Baptist church in the entire state. Exactly who am

01:41:02

I to associate with? And you say, well, there's guys all over the country.

01:41:07

Yes, and we were at one point part of ARPCA back when ARPCA was around, the

01:41:13

Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, and we had much profit.

01:41:19

But a large reason why ARPCA fell apart was because of ecclesiology or their lack of commitment to it.

01:41:32

And that kind of got how we got to doing some of the reading we did.

01:41:38

But I think that people don't have other Reformed Baptist churches that are like -minded enough in their immediate area.

01:41:45

Two, the churches themselves are not really that committed to the associationalism because they're not committed to ecclesiology.

01:41:53

And three, our associations themselves have not been deeply grounded in the confession when it comes to ecclesiology.

01:42:03

Do you think it's sometimes because, I'm just thinking out loud here, of this symptom that was just mentioned—and this would go with other symptoms of error within Reformed Baptists—that very often, a

01:42:21

Reformed Baptist church will arise in the scene not because it was a planted church that starts fresh as a confessional

01:42:32

Reformed Baptist congregation, but very often, and we rejoice when we know of churches from different denominational backgrounds and even independent non -denominational backgrounds that were

01:42:48

Arminian and had other issues that differ from us. We rejoice when they become

01:42:54

Reformed and Baptistic and maybe even start to claim the 1689 confession.

01:43:01

But very often, there's baggage from what they began with. Do you think that that has something to do with it?

01:43:07

Like, for instance, you might have an independent fundamentalist church that has those leanings, and then when it becomes

01:43:14

Reformed, it doesn't follow all the way through. You might even have one pastor, which is the common thing in independent fundamentalist

01:43:27

Baptist churches and other things that go along with that. Yeah, I think that's very insightful, and I would agree with that.

01:43:36

Yeah, there's a certain fundamentalist stripe that can be found amongst

01:43:42

Reformed Baptist churches. I'm in a blandly evangelical, maybe fundamentalist church,

01:43:49

Arminian. I become Calvinist. My pastor won't change, the church won't change, so I'm going to go start my own church.

01:43:56

And there's a joke about Baptist church planting is by division. You know,

01:44:03

I have a real problem with people who just go off and start their own thing. The churches should be established in an appropriate manner.

01:44:13

And when I was brand new to the Reformed faith, an older Reformed pastor said to me, be careful.

01:44:21

Once you hang out your shingle that says we're Reformed, you're going to have all sorts of people coming from other churches, because those churches were not

01:44:28

Reformed enough for them. Do not embrace them quickly, because within six months, you will have said or done something that will say to them, you're not

01:44:37

Reformed enough, and they will leave. Yeah, I know. And that piece of advice was proven to be very true.

01:44:48

Yes, unfortunately, I've witnessed that all too often. But we have to go to our final break, and if you do have a question, submit it now or forever hold your peace, because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:45:00

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the good old

01:45:16

USA. And always remember to only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:45:27

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01:52:35

Welcome back, and we do have Jerry in Carrboro, North Carolina, who has a question.

01:52:43

I know that any system of ecclesiology can go haywire when it's abused and twisted, but I have witnessed congregationalism do that when they begin to treat their pastors like hirelings and have fired them for unbiblical reasons.

01:53:01

What is a protection and prevention of that when you are adopting a congregational system of government and a church?

01:53:14

You still there, Doug? Yes, still here. Okay. I was wondering how

01:53:19

I wanted to address that. Again, I think it goes back to the keys, the four keys of the kingdom.

01:53:30

The congregation has been given the responsibility by Christ to exercise the order inside the church, which includes ordering the life of the pastor, but according to the standards of Christ, not themselves.

01:53:51

And one of the things they are responsible to do is to recognize, as our confession says, the gifting of the

01:53:58

Spirit and setting aside of someone for the office of, say, elder. Now, once the congregation—so in other words, no man can just make himself the pastor, right?

01:54:11

Only the authority of Christ working through the congregation. But once that authority has been exercised in the calling of the man, that man is now to exercise his authority, and the congregation must recognize that, that they're not recognizing a man.

01:54:33

They're recognizing Christ, who is by His Spirit, has set this man aside for this particular task.

01:54:41

And so to set that man aside, kind of like how often David will say to his people, you know, do not touch

01:54:50

Saul, the anointed, right? Once the congregation has recognized the giftedness of this man, they must acknowledge

01:54:57

Christ in that, and it's the lordship of Christ that keeps them from getting rid of their pastor for unbiblical reasons.

01:55:08

And the abuse of elder rule can do the same thing, because you can have authoritarian elders who treat perhaps a new elder who is primarily assigned to preaching or something like that, they can treat him like a hireling and really be defying the concept of the parity of elders, which should be in place there in addition to the plurality.

01:55:40

Am I making sense? Yeah. This goes back to my illustration.

01:55:46

You have to know your position, and you can't redefine the positions according to what you want at the time or the moment.

01:55:56

And this is where, I think it was in Karl Truman's book, the creedal imperative, or maybe

01:56:04

I saw it somewhere else, but it was, you know, the creeds give us, the creeds and confessions give us these great guardrails for what's going on in the life of the church in terms of doctrine and practice and worship.

01:56:18

And we constantly need to come back to them and engage ourselves according to them.

01:56:25

Right. One of the things that we're doing at our church, and the idea was not new with us, it really came from reading

01:56:32

Keech, Benjamin Keech's book, The Glory of the True Church. We started having congregational meetings once a month to discuss the topics going on in the church and trying to teach ourselves how to be able to talk to one another, how to disagree with one another, and to do so, you know, like in the spirit of Ephesians 4 or whatever.

01:56:56

But so often, it's one group pitting against each other.

01:57:02

No, we're the body of Christ. We have different roles. The roles are controlled by Christ himself, and I must submit my role to the mind of Christ.

01:57:15

But I can't do that if I don't know it. Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all the information they need about the conference next week.

01:57:26

It's going to be July 22 -24 in Fargo, North Dakota.

01:57:32

The speakers not only include my guest today, Douglas Vander Meulen, but James Renahan, who's been on this program.

01:57:41

And I'd love to get eventually Jared Mays on the show. I've never interviewed him. And Matthew Bingham as well.

01:57:47

I've never interviewed him as well. So that website for more detail.

01:57:55

Well, go ahead. Well, just so, let me just interrupt you. The registration is now closed.

01:58:00

So we closed it a couple weeks ago. We're full. We do have one coming up next year.

01:58:07

It'll be the second week of August, and it will be on the role of John Owen and his rise to congregational, as a congregational theologian, and his connection to both

01:58:20

John Cotton and Nehemiah Cox, and how this all kind of ties together in terms of the development of our confession.

01:58:27

So those who might be interested, we will be, as of right now, we're planning on another conference.

01:58:33

And each conference we're hosting on ecclesiology is meant to build on the previous year.

01:58:39

So you can get, you'll be able to get at least audio, if not audio and video tapes of last year and this year.

01:58:49

Great. And the website is 3535foundation .com. 3535foundation .com.

01:58:55

Don't forget about the website for Community Baptist Church of Fargo, North Dakota. That's cbcfargo .com,

01:59:03

cbcfargo .com. Also, don't forget about the 50 % off discount for as many copies of the 1689

01:59:13

London Baptist Confession of Faith that you choose to purchase from Solid Ground Christian Books.

01:59:19

That website is solid -ground -books .com. Solid -ground -books .com.

01:59:25

You have been an absolutely magnificent guest, Brother Vaynermulen, and I mean that with all sincerity.

01:59:32

There's no hyperbole or flattery there. I really want you to come back to this program often, and thank you for coming on the show with very little notice.

01:59:43

Well, thank you for the invitation, and may the Lord bless this church. Amen. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater