December 2, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Remarks on the Debate Over Calvinism

And welcome to the dividing line I was just commenting in channel run to the battle by Steve camp is still one of the best Best theme songs around and those who are on the cruise not this last time with the one before that got to hear Steve do a special Alpha Omega ministries prasapala Guillaume dividing line version of run to the battles.

That was that was a lot of fun. Welcome to the dividing line. Yes, I'm gonna jump right into the fact that yesterday Had the opportunity of being on Chuck Chris Myers viewpoint Broadcast as soon as I heard his voice.

I knew I had been on his his program before and I think he was talking about Mormonism or or Roman Catholicism or something? I don't know, but so been on on one of my books before it but this time it was on debating Calvinism.

And I I have mentioned I know I mentioned in channel. I may have mentioned on here I mentioned everything on here and it gets me in a lot of trouble. May have mentioned on my blog. Not sure exactly where but I've said from the start It seemed odd that all of a sudden Dave hunt would abandon his very clear Perspective his very clear choice of not Debating me not doing any type of encounter with me at all where he would be put in a position of having to answer questions, so if I even wrote to to Multnomah when they contacted me, and I said does Dave hunt know it's supposed to be there and so.

Anyway, we discovered that I don't I got the feeling anyways and those of you who listen Maybe you can you can tell me, but I got the feeling that Dave didn't know that I was going to be there, and I'll try to find that section toward the beginning problem I've got here is the recording I have of yesterday's program is a RAM file and unlike the other You know formats mp3.

I didn't have a chance to convert this Into mp3 or wave so I don't have the nice waveform to pick places out and and it only gives me like you know I've one little tiny move of my mouse is 30 seconds and all the rest of stuff so We may have to jump around a little bit here to try to get where we want to where we want to go.

And in fact just getting to the start here, but what everybody really noticed was the fact that once again we have We have a situation Where I was obviously in the minority in fact the the host the program was considerably more consistently Armenian.

And on the other side of Dave hunt because he denies eternal security and so It was fascinating listening to the introductions and to the questions that were asked and things like that. Because they they showed such a real strong Anti reformed bias let me let me just play you the opening of this so you can see for yourself here.

Let me try to get to right at 30 seconds and it's just it's gonna put me in 34 seconds matter what I do.

The Program’s Anti-Reformed Framing and Loaded Questions

You remember how Daniel went into the lion's den. Can you imagine how he felt I? Mean here. He was told that he was going to have to be facing these very very hungry Lions and so he had to face it. He knew he had to go into the lion's den.

He was going into the lion's den, but have you ever considered how he felt well today? You can well understand how I feel today because we're to be dealing with one of the most difficult issues. Challenging the mind and the heart of professing Christians today.

It's the subject of Calvinism. There are a number of Issues that are facing the church today. Theological issues that are great divides. They create dividing lines in the sand. One of those is the pre-tribulation.

Rapture. As soon as I heard that I was like oh boy. I better keep my eschatological comments to myself.

These lines draw very great distinctions between Various professing Christian believers and their pastors and theologians and so on. Another one of those is Calvinism. How in fact there are some who would rather father follow follow Calvin than they would Christ.

Well as soon as I mean I was sitting there. And I was using my computer to type notes as I was hearing things and the very first thing I have is would rather follow Calvin than Christ. What on earth is that.

Where did that come from?

It's a fascinating discussion. Not long ago in well actually it was a couple of years ago I had the opportunity to interview a gentleman who I had deep respect for a rather well-known Gentleman here in our nation a theologian one who obviously had a very good handle On what the Bible had to say and also was very concerned about our nation the spiritual condition on our nation.

So we had a wonderful interview together and as we closed our Conversation and after we were off the air. I asked this gentleman Why he had spent so much of his time quoting Calvin and almost no quotes from Christ the Lord of the church.

His response was well. I believe in Calvin. I said yes, but don't you believe in Christ? Well, yes, but and that's where the conversation ended. Excuse me.

At this point I haven't even said a word yet and Already you you've got this picture of Calvinists who are cultists. You know, you can just see his black robed black hooded dudes, you know who follow after pictures of John Calvin or something.

It's like wow, this is this is starting off real real. Well, isn't it?

So many of us have that kind of knee-jerk reaction. Many of us have become slaves to isms in our lives. There are all kinds of isms that we have. Today we want to try to have an open and honest discussion about this very difficult subject.

That is it's essential that we get to the bottom of this. It's essential that we at least open up the issues and today on viewpoint. We're going to do that. We have 55 minutes in order to Kind of lay this thing out.

There's no way we can deal with all of the issues in all of the detail that would be necessary but at least that we can open some of these things things up and begin to Have an open-hearted and open-handed discussion on it.

John Calvin was a French theologian and Protestant Reformation leader ranks as the most influential thinker in non-lutheran.

Protestantism, okay, we're three and a half minutes in the program yet and so far neither Dave Hunt nor myself.

John Calvin, the Reformation, and the Charge of Following Calvin Instead of Christ

Edgewise his theology and his views on church practices became the basis of the reform movement known as Calvinism. His thought dominated Protestantism in France the Netherlands and Scotland and was very strong in parts of America England Germany and Central Europe.

Calvin was trained for Catholic priesthood and then for the law and in 1533 Calvin joined the cause of the Reformation. Following in the wake of Martin Luther John Calvin the Genevan reformer created and systematized the reformed tradition in Protestantism in Paris.

The young Calvin met the teachings of Luther and as I said about 1533 experienced a sudden conversion. He next broke with Roman Catholicism left France and lived as an exile.

He began to form it. Now what's funny right there for those of you who have not read the book. And I'm not gonna play the whole thing. I'm just trying to get to the to the point where where hunt said something.

But the funny thing was Hunt in his book says that Calvin never ever ever Gives testimony of conversion to Christ and so he just said he that you know.

He's using the from the commentary on Psalms the sudden conversion story really his theology and in 1536 published the first edition of the Institution of the Christian religion better known as the Institutes.

Calvin was the great systematizer. He took up and reapplied the ideas of the first generation of reformers. His Institutes have been a classic statement of Reformation theology for centuries. Calvin claimed that even before the creation God chose some of his creatures for salvation and others for Destruction.

Well joining us here today on view to viewpoint two very special guests Dave hunt and James white. James white. I have in fact both of these gentlemen have written a book called debating Calvinism five points two views and That with that at the basis of our discussion here today James it's good to have you on board.

You are the one who is promoting the doctrine of Calvinism.

You are the one who eats children behind the. I'm sorry. Okay, so I got just a few minutes here. We'll go ahead and listen that. I just want to get to the point where where Dave hunt does. Does his introduction because I want to see if the rest of you hear the same thing that I heard or at least I think I heard or something along those lines.

Supporting that can you give us just a quick two-minute? Preview as to what we ought to be expecting here.

Yes, I hold to what I call the doctrines of grace because of the exegesis of the text of Scripture. I believe firmly that a consistent sound exegesis of the text of the Bible Leads us to believe that God is sovereign over all things that when he created he created for a purpose.

There is nothing purposeless in this world that everything will eventually resound to his glory both the redemption and salvation of a people unto his grace as well as the punishment of the wicked will result in God's glory and.

That because of that there are certain things the Bible teaches about the doctrine of salvation that though they are very unpopular In many circles today are very clearly caught by the Lord Jesus and by his apostles in regards to man's inability to believe outside of God's grace.

The effectiveness of God's grace the Effectiveness of the work of Christ as the Savior these are all part and parcel of what the Bible teaches. Concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I believe it's very important especially today I'm an apologist and giving a defense the Christian faith to be consistent and the Hermeneutical methods that we use in handling the Word of God and allowing the Word of God to speak.

I would just like to say that interestingly enough in our in our book. The vast majority of quotations of other people did not come from me. My citations were primarily focused upon the scriptures now.

You know those of you who have not seen the book You need to get it, but if you have you know that my presentations were biblical presentations. They were they were focused upon exegetical discussion of certain passages and even in the introduction I bet you anything that there are more citations of Calvin and other sources in Dave Hunt's introduction than in the entirety of everything I wrote in the book with the possible exception of.

The number of Spurgeon quotes I had and of course the reason I did the Spurgeon quotes was because Dave Hunt continues to misrepresent Spurgeon and so I just wanted to you know keep proving the point just by you know.

Model citation. Not John Calvin or Augustine or anyone else and I honestly have never met a Calvinist who would ever say there are some who would rather follow Calvin than Christ. I've never met one of those folks and certainly they wouldn't get along in the Calvinistic circles that I travel in.

Such a person ever existed. All right. Well, I appreciate that quick and succinct statement. Dave Hunt. George. Okay, here comes Dave Hunt. This is part. I wanted to get to joining us also a man of considerable ability presenting the opposing viewpoint.

Dave give us your Minute and a half statement. Will you two minutes? Well, first of all, let me. Let me correct James and one implication. He says I quoted Other people more than he did that that may be true.

He says he quoted primarily the scripture. If you want to go to the book and check it out as we have. I Quoted the scripture far more often than James did and I quoted a much wider range of scripture.

Yes, you know, that's probably true. The problem is what he's counting there are mere citations without a word of exegesis or the long list Times he would just simply list verse after verse after verse and not even offer The first attempt to demonstrate that those passages were saying what he said they said.

That is not a valid use of scriptures. And the point is that it is Dave Hunt who in the book is constantly going after John Piper John MacArthur Quoting Calvin quoting this secondary source But what he doesn't give us and this is this is what is I think just plainly manifests anyone what he doesn't give us is Exegesis Interpretation something where you're actually getting into the text and the reason simple Dave Hunt does not possess the capacity to do So he just hasn't studied the field and for some reason feels that it's wrong to do So and accuses those of us who do that of being elitists.

This is nothing new those of you who follow this for a long time know this but you know Anyways, we still haven't got to the point where he says something. It's very interesting. Listen James good.

You know debate, you know, I was not Aware that we were going to have some kind of I was out of the country when this was arranged. I was told that this was to promote the book Debating Calvinism, but anyway, but I don't know about the rest of you.

I just get the feeling that Dave didn't know I was going to be there. I that just to me Sounds like he just did not know that I was going to be there. That's um, I Later in the program I took the time to Reiterate my challenge to Dave Hunt.

I still believe That he should do what he initially said he would do when when we stood. Well, I I stood in front of Dave Hunt's table in the basement of the church in st. Louis going to be very near that church in fact here in a matter of hours and His he had one copy of what love is this on his table and I had started thumbing through it and see my name appearing numerous times and so I talked with Dave About doing a debate.

I I said, you know, let's get in touch the show. Let's let's find out when let's put the dates together and He did not stand there and say no. No, no, I don't think we should do that. He agreed to that.

He was agreeable to doing a public debate. And so I said I still believe very firmly That this book would be greatly aided by a DVD of a debate or multiple DVDs of a lengthy debate a Bible based debate.

Where we engage in cross-examination of one another on the basis of the text okay, I Continue to believe that because I do not believe in a written Format where you have half as many words each time you respond that you can meaningfully hold a person To the same level of accountability that you can when you have a live debate.

Okay that I stand by that that's very very clear anyone who has watched debates knows That it's cross-examination. It is when you're trying to answer questions. That's when you discover very quickly whether you've just presented a story or whether you actually have a position, okay?

So that's That that was my position. So I raised these issues and so toward the end of the program and I I got the majority of the time because I was debating the host Chuck Krismeier. Dave Hunt didn't get nearly as much time basically because he and Chuck Krismeier See eye-to-eye with the exception of eternal security.

Which of course I don't believe Dave Hunt has any basis for believing in the first place, but be that as it may. That's why he didn't get as much time as I did because the guy is you know debating me so 41 minutes so I got to start this beginning and then drag the little thing over try to find 41 minutes so here we go Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do 41 all right.

The Host’s Predetermined Questions About Predestination, Sovereignty, and Free Will

Again, I welcome you back to viewpoint. It's conversation with conviction. We're moving from information. Hopefully to transformation, but we're talking here today about one of the most prominent doctrines within the Protestant community.

In fact this particular doctrine I would I think it would be fair to say Divides the Protestant community just about in half. Almost as much as the difference between the Protestant community and the Catholic community at this juncture.

The the implications of this are so important and They're worthy of our discussion. Let me ask some questions just very quickly and then we'll get back a return to Dave Hunt now.

It's his turn in this discussion not now listen now. Here is where? The host. These are Pre-prepared questions. Now listen to what these questions are and what they're actually saying. I I would love to to Respond to each one of these questions with a question from the Reformed side.

But this is you know I didn't get a chance to do that. If men are absolutely predestined by the pre-established Causative will of God either to heaven or hill why?

Evangelize which I had answered earlier out of obedience to Christ. Love for God love for my fellow, man. God says he's going to use us as the means of bringing his elect people unto himself. I didn't get any responses to that, but here it is being repeated again.

If God is absolutely sovereign are men mere puppets of God's will. Wow never heard that one before.

How many books on the Reformed faith answer that question repeatedly and ad nauseum I don't know, but every introductory text I've ever read from Sproul or Boyce or whoever including my own all address the robot or puppet.

Argumentation. If man has no choice in following God's will why teach or preach or if man has no choice.

No man has a choice the problem is his choice has been enslaved to his corrupt nature. That's why Jesus said if you commit sin you are the what of sin slave of sin you Preach because you trust the Holy Spirit of God can break that bondage in the life of his elect people or even read the Bible.

Well Christians read the Bible because they are no longer under that condemnation and Then you suggest reading the Bible to other people because the Holy Spirit then uses the word to open their hearts and minds.

Isn't it all pre-established?

It may be but that's not our experience and since we don't know what the decree of God is then we can only go on what.

He holds us accountable for and that's we do if the majority of men and women are absolutely predestined to hell and without any choice. I.

Corrected that one over and over and over again. It is not when he says the majority. He keeps talking about how it's a microscopic number. They'd be safe. That is not Reformed theology that is that is not what we believe.

There is a Number that no man can number of people surrounding the throne in Revelation chapter 5 and so that is a straw man. And secondly without a choice. Let's make sure we understand what he's saying.

Without libertarian free will their choice is controlled by their corrupt nature. This is why you need to have a biblical anthropology. You need to have a biblical view of the nature of man. This is all these questions are coming from an unbiblical Traditional view of man rather than the one given to us in Scripture.

How can the Bible say that God desires that none should perish?

Wow, one of the big three Matthew 22 37 second Peter 9 first Timothy 2 for addressed rather fully in the potter's freedom Which by the way, we are going to attempt to get to Mr. Chris Meyer because after the program is over he mentioned the possibility during the breaks of having a program on with each one of us separately and Since he was very strongly opposed to Eternal security I said let's discuss it because I'd like to present to him the perfection of the work of Christ and John chapter 6 and really hold him to it and Maybe if I didn't have to be fighting with two people I might get somewhere there.

I don't know, but that all should come to repentance. If those who are saved are absolutely eternally secure. How can the Apostle Paul warn of a great falling away?

Um, maybe. Because that's from the formal church and like John said they went out from us because they were not truly on this.

Can you fall away from a position? You've never been in?

Yeah, you can fall away from being in the church. That doesn't mean that you were regenerated united to Christ.

If I confess Christ as Savior and I'm eternally secure. Why should I have to obey God or live a holy life?

Wow, you know I've heard that exact same question asked of me by Mormons. And I always respond with Romans chapter 6. I go. Did you know you just quote a passage of Scripture that? You know where Paul's talking about.

Shall we continue in sin. That grace might increase may it never be. For how shall we who died to? Sin still live in it.

That's sort of just a biblical response. I've already got my ticket through the pearly gates. Oh ticket now.

I don't believe in the ticket stuff. I believe in the perseverance of the Saints stuff because. The fact that I'm a Calvinist and therefore the faith that I have is is not just a faith that I've made up for myself.

But it is in fact the work of the Holy Spirit of God within my heart. And that's why it perseveres and so on and so forth. Don't I?

These are questions that are worthy of consideration and they all flow from Calvinism.

Unfortunately none of the questions that could be asked the other direction were even noted. All the questions about how God has knowledge of future events all the questions about What Dave Hunt or even Chuck Chris Myers? Theodicy would be.

How do they expect explain? God's creation in the light of the existence of evil and things like that all the issues of man's Cooperation making the very work of the Trinity dependent upon the free will of man etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

None of that gets gets mentioned at all now. Let me play one more because I wasn't going to spend this much time on it. But I thought answering those questions would be worthwhile toward the end of the program.

I didn't get to say much. Like I said, I had gotten the majority of time so I knew for the other program I wasn't gonna say much and in fact I just sort of sat back and listened to Dave Hunt sort of self-destruct and perfectly honest with you.

It didn't it didn't come across for a while. I'm just gonna fast-forward here to like the last couple of minutes of the program so you can see for yourself here. The new 50.

There we go. Respond to John 6. I responded to it in detail. I respond to everything that he said now.

I had made the point that Dave Hunt does not respond to the exegesis of John chapter 6. I stand by that what he does is provide excuses. I was meaning he does not provide any meaningful Exegetical response running off to another passage.

Or showing your utter ignorance of the original languages by counting the word whosoever in the basis of strong's exhaustive Concordance of the English translation the Bible is not giving a response. That's what I was talking about.

And so he's skipping, you know. The context has never been real real strong in the responses that I've gotten from from from Dave.

As far as cross-examination is concerned I thought we cross-examined one another in this book. Now James make statements that are not true. On his weapon. So forth. He says I agreed to a debate and now I've gone back on on my word.

Well, if he wants to go back and see my response to his open letter to me. Now listen to this. Now I.

He's bringing up stuff that that actually I had not raised in the program. I could have gone after so much. I had a whole list right on my screen of all the exegetical errors that Dave Hunt had made. I had him right.

I had the page numbers where he met it where he inserts stuff in the first John 5 one that they would force him to believe and work salvation and and all the rest of stuff that's that's going on. And I Didn't bring any of that up.

I didn't have time to. I mean I was taking on two people at the same time basically. And so he's starting to bring all this stuff up and listen this just. Just did not go over too. Well because listen what the listen what the host does.

Begins all right, but what's happening here is we're having a spitting contest and it's not going anywhere.

Well, I hadn't talked for I don't know how long at this point. So I wasn't the one doing the spitting that that that was. I was just chuckling in the background there.

All right, Dave. Tell me do you see any practical implications of the doctrine of eternal security in the life of our country right now? No, I think James and I would agree on the doctrine of eternal security.

I don't believe people can be lost if once they're saved and I don't think that is the major problem of Calvinism. Although Calvinism it's not that Christ holds us, but it's the Perseverance of the Saints and the only sure way of knowing that you're one of those is according to Calvin.

Is it now listen to this and just just? So sorry Dave hunt doesn't yet quite get the feeling the understanding of What this debates all about because he's just about to throw out some stuff from Calvin.

First of all again completely misunderstands the foundation of Perseverance and all the rest of that stuff. But the worst thing here is what you're just about to hear remembering who I am and the fact that I'm one of those Reformed Baptists, you know Baptists what a dead listen this if you were baptized as a baby.

Even by a Catholic priest or if you did you hear that baptize the baby by a Catholic priest. Hello. Hello, did anyone hear a debate recently that you're just sort of going. Wow. You can't win for trying dude.

You're gonna get hit one way or the other form.

So that's another issue, but the fact is that James and I have had a debate. I think we covered the issues very well. We thought very carefully about it. And we agreed upon this. Now for James to say that I agreed to an oil debate.

And I've backed out on that. That's not true now as you can get the written debate debating Calvinism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, there's that that was there's about 54 minutes, and I'm at that included the the commercials and. Is what I expected is what I expected there's there's no toys about is it was what I expected.

And I know we have at least one caller that wants to talk about that, so I'd like to to get the gym in Nashville. Because I believe he's has some comments on yesterday's interview as well. And I'd like to if some other folks want to comment on that I'd like to try to keep those topics together if at all possible.

I saw somebody in channel saying they wanted to comment on as well, so this would be your opportunity. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one if you heard the Program yesterday on viewpoint wanted to comment on it now.

Now is the time to do so let's go ahead and talk to Jim in Nashville. Jim to get chance to hear the program. I did indeed and do you have any hair left I? Didn't have hair to start. You know it's really funny because I was watching folks in channel because I had advertised this on the blog.

Maybe that's even how you knew about it. And I was watching folks in channel and man especially when it really started getting heated. Everybody channels just like I can't believe he's saying that they're getting all upset.

And I would take the time to type in channel guys I'm perfectly calm here, and and people are like how can you do that and I'm like you got to realize I? If you have the right reason for why you're doing this.

When people start doing that the only reason people behave that way is because they're not doing well. They're not making their point. You know from my perspective. I I don't care that there was two-on-one I got an opportunity to speak the truth.

I can trust the Holy Spirit to apply that to somebody's heart.

I you know the Calvinist is always in a win-win situation at that point. Well hunt got positively whiny toward the. When he complained that you and Chuck were doing all the talking and that he wasn't getting equal time.

And I thought you know shut up dude the host is winning for you. You know where your side is concerned. Let him just carry the torch for you. There was just one comment that that you didn't play. You covered most of the points.

And it did sound to me like hunt did not expect you to be there. Yeah, yeah, although. I'm I'm. I'd be interested to know how he thought he was going on a 60-minute radio program to promote the book.

But there wouldn't be any discussion of the actual topicality out there. That one. I can answer for you.

Yeah, because up until this time I even had to contact Multnomah. Because they were only arranging him. When when when would they would arrange a radio program? They'd only contact a hunt they wouldn't contact me.

It was like I was the ghostwriter or something right and so he had already done a number of radio programs Promoting debating Calvinism without me. And I wasn't even given the opportunity of being there and I had to finally contact Multnomah and say excuse me but this is a debate book and So shouldn't we both be there and only one of the people who had already had hunt on?

Then had me on later to counterbalance it all the rest of them that had already had him on just skipped it and and just you. And just went with him. So I I can understand that and I can understand that day was out of what has been Traveling to Australia and all the rest of these places, but the fact the matter is it did seem to me That somebody arranged this and forgot the little bit of of information there.

It said oh and by the way James White will be on with you.

Yeah, it could be time for Dave to go back and talk to his staff about prepping. But the one comment that Chuck made that you didn't address that if you could address I think would be. It's rather obvious, but I found it really really disturbing.

And I don't know exactly how he constructed it. Maybe you can find the audio. Maybe not, but he basically said that there was an area of the country. Yes. Where Calvinism was most prominent. You found Calvinism prominent among this but and among those people.

Though he had nothing to substantiate it you saw. And consequently. As soon as you believe in eternal security. You have Christians and this was a quote who live like hell heaven. Mm-hmm. And as soon as he said Christians who live like hell security and of course the only example he gave was not Christians out drinking drugging shooting each other he went for.

Okay, they get divorces right and use that as his evidence of living like hell. It was not only convoluted. But if there was ever a truly fallacious people who believe in Calvin who said earlier about?

Yeah, well, I even actually tried to.

To over talk him at that point which is impossible to do when you're on the phone. But right I I even said that that I I cannot even begin to to to accept such a statement. Then but I wasn't that was right as we were going into I might actually be able to find that.

Let me let me hold On just saying let me see if I can and if I can do this. Folks you all have to say wow He's really good at that. Wow. He's really good at the way. I didn't do it yet. Okay I've got something playing here rich.

You might want to pot it up.

You know the red socks and the and and the white socks and they're going to.

Each is going to have their cheering sections and neither one. Let me go a little bit farther there. Consistent biblical worldview and I believe that foundational to all the Christian worldview is the fact that God is the creator and he created with a purpose.

And the reason that God Knows what's going to happen in the future is not because God just looks down the corridors of time. But because God created with a purpose.

I believe I think you've hit it right on the on on the on the nose. And one of the things that I note Jim. Is that as you look across America at the majority of those who are calling for a worldview?

Calvinism, Eternal Security, and the Charge of Living Like Hell

Okay, by the way here it is. So yeah, I did a good job. Okay, he starts off by saying something nice and then takes it all away.