Live from LDS General Conference and the Newly Built “Meganacle”

Second Timothy 2 15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast.

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360 that's 602 -274 -1360 or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area it's 1 -888 -550 -1360. That's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And now with today's topic here's James White and welcome to the dividing line.

Live From Salt Lake City and the New LDS Conference Center

My name is James White and if I sound a little bit strange it's because I'm on cell phone again here in Salt Lake City Utah and we are standing outside the General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It is an unusual conference indeed. This is the opening of what we have dubbed the meganacle. It is the new meeting house for the LDS Church located north of Temple Square. If you've been up here to Salt Lake City there used to be a parking lot over there back when we first began doing this kind of work it was just an open parking lot.

Now it is a massive granite structure actually it's reinforced concrete faced with the very same granite. They went to the same place that they got the granite for the Salt Lake City Temple and it is a large very large gray building that seats 21 ,000 people instead of the little over 6 ,000 people they said that could be seated comfortably in the old tabernacle and the result of that we sort of knew what it was going to be but the result of that was at about 1205 between 12 and 1205 when the first session let out.

There's three sessions here between 10 and noon and then one just started two o 'clock between two and four and then there's a priesthood session this evening between 6 and 8 p .m. when that first session let out three times as many people as normal came streaming across North Temple headed toward Crossroads Plaza and the places to eat and there we stood with our little tracks a small band of us and about about 21 ,000 hungry Mormons.

It was an interesting experience. There are times when you could that you can barely turn around to try to even to get a track out very far as the crowd was just so huge. We are here across North Temple at the what's called the North Gate the North Gate of the temple.

There are some people the regular protesters that are here every time that we're up here. Thankfully they're across over next to the building the new building so we're not having to really to worry much about them.

There's some anti-abortion protesters and some others that show up and now we've had to sort of fight with them for a number of years and our track distribution has suffered as a result because you're near these people.

One fellow I'm looking at right now is dressed all in black camouflage gear with a black hat and a and a black cloth across his face and that's not going to encourage track distribution for anybody within 50 yards of him.

So we're over here at the North Gate and a small group we had some of the folks that were going to be coming up with us. Unfortunately we're not able to make it and so we have a small group of folks a couple folks from up here in Salt Lake City.

One of our our regular callers. It doesn't have to call in today because Brandon is standing here in front of me reading something that was just handed to him by somebody. Is that a Christian tractor.

Something. It is a Christian tractor and Rich is on the other line on his cell phone so we can do some interviews with some of our folks up here and also know if anyone's calling in. And I'd like to ask you to help me.

Our regular listeners and maybe new listeners to the dividing line. You can help me by calling in today and being a part of the program. One triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty and six. Oh two something or other local number two seven four thirteen sixty.

There you go the numbers. Hey I'm standing next to a road you know with lots of people going but actually things have finally quieted down here. The next session has just started and this is the quietest it's been since since 12 noon but for the past two hours it has been an absolute zoo.

We've been distributing a lot of literature. We haven't had a lot of conversations yet because everyone's rushing to get into the new building and that's the big thing want to do. But you can help us by calling in today with your questions about the work we're doing up here.

Any questions you have on Mormonism any questions you have about what it's like to distribute literature to be a group of. We have. I think we have six here right now to be a group of six amongst more than 20 ,000.

What the what that is like. Please feel free to call in and we'll have the opportunity of talking to you and answering your questions. Live from up here in Salt Lake City. Also want to give you a report on what took place last evening.

I think I may have mentioned last week. I'm not sure I've been so busy recently. I can't remember what I've mentioned what I haven't mentioned but this is an unusual trip up here to Salt Lake City because we came up I taught a class Thursday night went straight to the airport and flew up to Salt Lake City got in very very early yesterday morning about 3 a .m. and then last night at Christ Presbyterian Church the Orthodox Presbyterian Church here in Salt Lake City.

Jason Wallace is the pastor there. We had a well it was a debate of sorts with the local instructor the local RCIA instructor and those of you are familiar with RCIA is the right of Christian initiation of adults that is it is the instruction class for people who join the Roman Catholic Church.

And dr. Don Schaefer who is a former Protestant a former conservative Baptist pastor a graduate of Talbot Theological Seminary who converged Roman Catholic Catholicism over a decade ago was my opponent and the discussion was on justification by faith.

Or that was the general topic that we were supposed to be addressing and it was a little bit of a more informal type of debate than we normally would have it and it wasn't quite as specific as for example the debate will be having on the 18th of May with Roberts and Janice in Long Island on the same topic and in fact the dr. Schaefer went first and there was fascinating.

He basically asserted that the Reformation had worked and that the Roman Catholic Church had adopted the teachings of Roman Catholicism I'm sorry of the Protestants and so that was that to hear someone affirming sola fide and sola scriptura even said scripture alone and and so on and so forth.

Yes yes it was just a reminder that even so far as to say that Martin Luther is a saint and that you can pray to st. Martin Luther which I think I'll have to mention that some of my Roman Catholic apologists friends and and then step back for the explosion.

But it was a most interesting evening and I think the the gospel of grace and the fact that we are justified by the imputation of the perfect righteousness of Christ alone was clearly presented. And during the during the cross-examination period I my opponent only used about four minutes of his time and the only question he asked me was if we keep arguing about theology how is there ever going to be any unity.

And then when my time came I had 15 minutes to cross-examine him and that turned out to be a very interesting and asking I would read from the Catholic Catechism of the Church of the 1994 Universal Catechism and and say do you believe that.

And well you know purgatory might be more like a it's a state you know and it's instantaneous and so on and so forth. So it was it was an interesting experience but we had a very good turnout. We only decided to do this.

Pastor Wallace decided to do this about two weeks ago and so it wasn't like it was something that could be a very well-promoted or anything like that. We thought a very good turnout there and I hope that the Lord was glorified in what took place.

We hope to have the tapes and it was videotaped very nicely as well. I'm not sure if Rich is aware that there is a videotape of that that's hopefully going to be made available so we will have that available as well.

So start off with something interesting dealing with Roman Catholicism in Salt Lake City and one of the constant comments that I got from folks is man we just this just doesn't happen up here this this area is so very much focused upon Mormonism and the conflict of Mormonism that the idea of having theological dialogue and discussion of such things as justification by faith and and that kind of thing is just very very difficult for for people to realize could take place.

But I think the people who attended were were very encouraged by what did take place encouraged to think about the importance of the Reformation that those issues are not unimportant but they continue to be important even when you're surrounded in a culture that is heavily soaked with what is in reality a polytheistic religion.

Still the other issues remain that just as important so it was that it was an excellent opportunity to share the gospel with folks and we hope that there are many who were blessed. But now today we shift gears and we stand out here.

Grace, Works, and the Gospel for Mormons

One of the tracks we've been passing out is the track entitled grace plus works is dead being meaningless and it's a track on the grace of God and so one of the one of the lines that we use in essence as we have people walking by is we say things along the lines of would you like to read about the grace of God or something like that.

And Rich was telling me that one of his was the people walk by him made the an amazing comment. And when Rich said would you like to read about the grace of God. The response was that's okay we can get along without it and I will make it without.

I think was with specific terminology. But we've also been passing out to the Christian message track men is not God. A couple of the other tracks that we have specifically written for distribution out here.

In fact I just saw a fallen warrior land upon the ground over here. I'll have to have someone maybe Brandon can go up get the fallen warrior that's laying there on the ground up fellow Mormon fellow picked it up.

Maybe it'll be nice to return it. But we call a track that is taken and then dropped upon the ground or ripped up or another in any other way a disposed of. We call that one of our fallen warriors. Because we do we do trust these tracks will have an impact that we recognize.

Of course as in any distribution situation that a large number of these tracks are are going to be thrown away. I mean when we go out to Mesa and we distribute literature out there as we will this year beginning I believe April 14th the 14th and the 15th and then the 18th through the well the night before before Easter I guess there's a number of tracks that that are thrown away.

There are missionaries who make it their goal in life to go get those tracks and to try to get them out of people's hands for example. But there are others. I was pointing out that someone today there was an elderly gentleman that just taken a track from one of our volunteers and he stuck it into his coat pocket and I said I like to see that happen because that means that they a track that's going to make it home or probably in fact may even get read weeks or months later don't pull out a suit jacket and you.

I've certainly had this experience to Jackie put it on and during the course of the day you reach into a pocket go what's that. And and here's the track that can be read in a context where there's not any a type of emotional pressure upon the person and it's in that type of situation that the Lord can use that message to start a person thinking maybe doing some research.

It has been our experience over the years that that's what happened. I'm standing here right now just noticing a number of Japanese Mormon people coming by. I've been given to understand that the ticket distribution to this first meeting in the new meeting house was very heavily weighted toward individuals outside of the United States.

The ones are the farthest away or the ones that had the better opportunity. So I've been seeing a large number of people from far away. I was just informed that they they have 800 ushers 800 ushers at this event so we've noticed there is a just a huge presence of not only police but all sorts of folks.

I cannot imagine the telecommunication setup that these individuals have here the people running around with things with my earphones in their ears and not even a visible radio for many of them moving entire blocks of people around groups of 200 across the street.

Here across the street they're all trying to fill up this this new building which isn't completely done. The front of the building is completely done and they've even this is amazing to me talk about the fact that you have a situation here where the LDS church has quite the relationship with the city government.

They have a little river a lot of river a stream type of bubbling stream that goes all the way down and then North Temple is on a a a fairly steep bank it is there is a bubbling stream that goes all the way down and in lieu of a sidewalk right next to the to the road and then the the regular sidewalk is inside of that and they finish the front of the building and the main side of the building.

But if you go around the back as I did there's still exposed concrete that has not yet received the the plates of granite that are all along the front part of the building but you can certainly see it from a long ways off.

And it is amazing to compare what downtown Salt Lake looks like now with what it did when we first attracted our first general conference in 1984 and what it looked like then is a tremendous change and what it represents is a huge expansion of the LDS church itself.

They are still using the tabernacle as I understand it for overflow. So if you have 21 ,000 inside plus an extra I heard the president Gordon Hinkley talking about an extra video area inside it beats a thousand for airing of film.

They're using that's 22 ,000 and then and then the Harley gang you know someday I could put mufflers on those types of motorcycles but and then you've got 6 ,000 over here you can you can be doing 30 ,000 here locally on an on an easy easy basis.

And I just happened to notice that a couple of our folks are now in a conversation with the LDS person talking probably about the gospel of justification the gospel of grace I would assume and they're sharing with him and that we've been a little disappointed this trip.

Of course we didn't know what to expect. We were primarily just trying to figure out how we're going to handle this entirely new situation. But we've been a little disappointed so far in the fact we've had very few conversations and the reason why you've had very few conversations is readily apparent to us and that is everyone that is passing us has some place to go.

They've been told that if they don't take their seats by such-and-such time it's sort of like an airline flight. If you're not in your seat half an hour early your tickets are canceled and they bring in standby passengers in this case standby attendees.

And so everyone's basically all excited about getting in a new building. And they're more excited about getting in a new building than they are about talking to anybody else. So we're sort of hoping that over the next couple of hours even during this program there'll be a few more conversations like this because the individuals who are out there the individuals who are walking along and coming into the conference maybe don't have to get in there quite as early.

Hopefully there will be people who maybe have attended the conference session this morning they're not attending this one. They're waiting for the priesthood session tonight and therefore they don't really have a place to go and so when we hand them a track they may stop and we're able to share with them and talk about the grace of God or about who the one true God is issues as such as that.

So that's what we're doing out here there's a small band of us and it is my hope and desire that those of you in the audience who have some questions concerning Mormonism questions on how to share the gospel with the LDS people maybe just a word of encouragement to us.

We're out here right on the front lines sharing with people and distributing literature that you'd give us a call we'd be hopefully be able to hear you fairly clearly and talk with you directly from Salt Lake City here.

The number is 1 -888 -550 -1360 if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area maybe even listening on the internet who knows that's possibility. And if you're in the Phoenix dialing area 602 -274 -1360 is the phone number that you can dial and as I understand it the folks there at the station will be able to get hold of Rich Pierce who normally would be a manning the controls but at this point is doing little more than manning the cell phone just a couple yards from me here and the folks there at the station will let him know who's on the air who's online will be able to talk with you and hopefully answer your questions and hear what you have to say on the dividing line.

I realize I have to keep a close eye on my own watch here. So I know when breaks are coming up and when the program how the program is going. We are distributing literature today that is both LDS specific as well as generic.

And what I mean by that is some of our tracks are specifically written for Mormon people. But I've been distributing a lot of what I would call generic literature today and that is it's just simply literature on the doctrine of grace on the doctrine of justification that is applicable to anyone who is involved in a works salvation system.

And I think that for me obviously part of that is because right now I'm very excited about the doctrine of justification writing the book on that subject and so it's what's on my heart and mind. That's what I was sharing last evening during the debate with with the Roman Catholic gentleman here in Salt Lake and it's really it's really the message of one must share with anyone in any type of situation in regard to what the gospel really is.

Who've been. These individuals have been given a a false hope a false message. And while the word gospel will probably be heard dozens and dozens and dozens of times during the conference sessions today the fact of the matter is it is a false gospel of the gospel they cannot bring salvation.

Callers on the Air and Encouragement for the Outreach

Well we have have a caller as I understand online and we're going to find out now just how well the marvels of wonderful of technological science works. But Joe's on the line that Joe are you able to hear me.

I can hear you just fine. Jim how are you. Well you know it's a beautiful day up here Joe we we miss you. Oh we're sorry we're not there to get my email. Yes rich rich shared your email that you have been to use the proper terminology providentially hindered from being with us.

But Joe you had some other folks there we've come with you. You've been doing some some training some preparation for sharing with the LDS people and but you're still gonna get a chance to do that because there's a little something called the Easter pageant coming up right around the corner.

Yes. Well we're looking forward to doing that. And I just wanted to call and let you know how encouraged we were to hear you speak today. And it's exciting. I kind of have a visual picture of everything you're describing there not the finished meganeckle or whatever you call it but praying for you.

I've been thinking about you throughout the day. We'll continue to pray for you and and we'll pray for more conversations this afternoon. So I just wanted to call and encourage you and well I appreciate that Joe and I I think you could probably if you'd like to take the biggest rush that you've ever experienced at Southgate.

Yes and triple it. That's what it was like for about 45 minutes to an hour at the Northgate as all the people streamed out of the building. In fact we want to try to get a picture of this rich was mentioning this to me.

You saw it a lot of six months ago. Yes I'm not sure how much of it was done then but but basically it's sort of hard to see looking straight at it but basically there are there are tears. There are levels of stairs that come down the front of this building and it was fascinating in the midst of the huge crowd to see just just these streams of people coming down the side of this building and heading toward you and they're all hungry.

They all want to get the crossroads. I think the food court down there did did a year's worth of business in the space of two hours today it must have been quite the sight down there but it's quite the experience and I'm really hoping to get a little larger group of people together for the October conference because the fact that in reality as I'm looking at it I think we're going to be able to cover as far as distribution of track in this area just as effectively as we could.

Temple Square there's it's sort of like the Mesa situation. You've only got a certain number of corners people are going to be going through and so I think it's going to be actually an advantage to us in being able to distribute literature and and to share with folks and hopefully in the future folks won't be in quite as much of a hurry once the newness of the building is worn off and so we'll be able to get in more of those those types of conversations but keep those keep those verses memorized.

Because as Larry Vondra announced last week on the program there's two extra nights of the Easter pageant this year and we're gonna be out there. I'm sorry. Terrific. Yeah it starts starts early as we seven full nights out there in Mesa and so we'll need all hands on deck for that.

So thanks for the encouragement Joe. And hope everybody gets to feeling better on your end of the end of things. To thank you all righty. Thanks for calling bye-bye. 602 274 1361 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60.

Hey you know I found the Marty Minto program many many times. Okay. And they have the numbers right there prominently displayed but you can see them and I know that Marty Minto looks at them at the numbers too.

So the fact that I remembered most of them when there are any numbers here at all I think is is probably something that's good especially in light of the fact that I my schedule is a little bit messed up at the moment shall we say as far as knowing what's going on.

So we invite you to participate in the program today if there's any questions you'd like to ask about the the outreach that we do out here the tracks were distributing maybe some of the recent conversations that just took place conversations we've had in the past what's going on with Mormonism in general give us a call and we'd be glad to talk to you about that I was mentioning before we took our phone call.

That's a lot of tracks that I've been distributing are focused upon the gospel and again it's it's so out out of step with our culture to in fact this was this came up last evening as well. One of the things that was that was asserted was that you're not saved by theology.

You're saved by knowing Jesus. And it was very interesting that was being said in the context of saying well so we have some differences about what the gospel is that doesn't really matter. You're you're too you're you're far too narrowly focused upon things that are not definitional the faith.

And that's really what the society tells a lot of us these days that whether you're justified by faith alone or faith plus some works prompted by grace or whatever else it might be those things really don't make any particular difference.

Do they. Well they did to the Apostle Paul in the book of Galatians they did to the Lord Jesus and they they have to us as well. And I just would encourage everyone in the audience who is aware of what the issues are in dealing with Mormonism or the Watchtower Society or sharing the gospel with Roman Catholics or dealing with the Church of Christ and it's a view of baptismal regeneration and things like that do not be discouraged by the fact that we seem to be in such a major minority in regards to a love for God's truth.

Many people who begin to appreciate God's truth and begin to understand the beauty of the gospel become discouraged when they realize how very few people there are that share with them. So I hear the music in the background that we'd like to hear from you.

Give us a call and we'll be back right after these words and welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White and if you hear that big green semi-truck in the background going by that's because we are live currently standing on the sidewalk outside the North Gate of Temple Square and this year is an unusual year.

This is my 31st trip up here to the General Conference and now there's something that certainly wasn't here when I came here the first time. It is the new I guess they're calling it a meeting hall. They've got to come up with something better than meeting hall.

I mean come on meeting hall doesn't even look like a hall. It's it's bigger than America West Arena. It seats more people in America West Arena and is larger than America West Arena physically and that's what I'm staring at the moment across the across the way.

I also heard Gordon B Hinckley saying this morning that they have trees and running water on the roof. I'm not sure why you'd want to have running water on a roof but that's the way it's designed and that's what's over there.

I can see some of the shrubbery. I wonder if they said that they sent people on a crusade to get shrubbery or something a little inside joke to be only a few people in the audience got but anyway it is a large place and it is currently filled with approximately 21 ,000 LDS people listening to the prophets and the apostles of the LDS Church teaching and preaching today and as normal we are here to share with folks and over on on his cell phone is the president of Alpha Omega Ministries Rich Pierce who normally would have to be filling in for me if I was gone or something like that or arranging the program.

And you know someday Rich you may have to if we can put put Rich on the air with me. You're gonna have to. You know you may have to do this type of program all on your own on a cell phone. Sometimes we're both gone.

That's right. Well okay I'm actually not being able to hear you. I hope you're on the air with me but that's all right. So we'll trust that you're sonorous. So I'm here now now I can hear you. Okay I got you now.

So what I was saying is if you ask a lot of people that have gone by us today they would say that we're both gone at that is generally how people treat you is when you ask would you like to take a the majority response of most people is that you are not there.

No you did not say the word so to me. Would you like to read about God's grace. So that's the old looking through routine. But was I was I overestimating the the amazing rush that took place. The thing that struck me about it is and somebody one of the Mormons who was standing there chit-chatting with me before this whole thing started people in there out while there was another group about that size coming going in the other way for the two o 'clock conference.

So I'm not sure but I have to say it was the at one time ever and it is by far and away the largest. Well yeah it is it is huge. Even as I came in yesterday listening to the radio they were talking about warning people out of the downtown area as far as traffic because it was conference weekend and I was going to be really busy down here.

I it must have happened to you if you said you got a number of tracks out but I had the experience again of one of those weird situations where you get a group coming by you and the first person in the group takes a track from you and they they basically take it in such a way they think they're supposed to be taking this from you and then everybody afterwards thinks they're supposed to be taking it from you too and you can wipe out an entire handful of tracks in just a matter of seconds because everyone's running by going oh I'm supposed to take this from you.

Maybe it's something I need to get into the into the conference or something like that. You know I think about the fact that I looked at this building and we're standing. It's always been slow. There's hardly been anybody up here and you just kind of sidewalk and the people is down on the ground level and they're pouring across all the traffic's been stopped and I'm looking up at the levels at the literally filled with people and they just keep coming and coming and coming and I'm like goodness how many people are in there.

You know I don't know how the folks down there at Crossroads Plaza survived the the rush of hungry Mormons but it was quite the experience you did have a we also had some some folks and I'm not gonna give me a free radio advertisement but from a website that showed up out here a pro LDS website who were quite aggressive in getting there.

I found myself in a situation to where I was talking with a gentleman just briefly trying to give him a track and this gal took her little bumper sticker and stuck it right out in front of my face and started talking with him and I'm just kind of blown away.

You know yeah they were very very straightforward. Now we have a family with this. We have a little girl who has been helping to pass out literature. I I couldn't help but think of my own daughter summer is she distributed literature last year in Mesa but this young and about how old is she.

About five six maybe four on that. I'm not sure that Larry Larry says six and she's a little thing that she's just freezing to death out here. It's probably up to about 62 or 63 degrees now but it's so it the wind is such that it's just nice and through the little thing but she's gotten a number of tracks out and mommy and daddy are here with her.

Of course. And they they regularly distribute tracks at the shopping malls and stuff here locally so it's not like she's not accustomed this but I don't think any of us were accustomed to what we saw with that rush or what we'll experience again here in approximately an hour and 22 minutes as we were trying to plot out how this was all going to come together.

This is definitely ground zero. Northgate has become the crossing point for the entire event even to the point. And this was something I never imagined and that was that the gathering place was actually on the temple property and then they would be taking people in lines two by two if you will over to the new property and of course who's on each side of those lines.

We are with our tracks smiling as folks are going by. Yeah they still have to they still have to work out a lot of the details there but I just don't think they have enough external space as I'm looking at it right now to to line people up over there on their property there they're sort of hemmed in a little bit and so they had to be using the temple square property for their standby lines things like that so they'd be taking groups of 200 at a time across the street and you and others were standing right there which I treat about God's grace.

I treat about the first vision distributing tracks. Right. They're going out. We may not have our normal afternoon experience of running the priesthood line. Yeah. But then again where else would the priesthood line go.

It's hard to find out it really is hard to say what what's going to happen with this seems to be like an all-new experience up here with how things are geographically happening. Yeah it's new. It's new for us and sort of like the first a couple times we came up here because the first time we ever attracted here and this was even before you and I had gotten together rich Mike Bellovo myself and Dave Warner came drove.

I do that. Yeah he was never the same. It's sadly that's exactly the case. He was never the same because people were not accustomed to our doing this and so we literally had lines of people waiting to talk to us right here at the North Gate and right where we're standing right now actually about 10 yards over that direction and at one point during that I was just having a grand old time and all of a sudden I heard that.

Yeah I looked over and here's Dave. He's up against a pole one of those poles over there that supports the gate and he's got about five or six guys around him and they're just throwing stuff at him right and left and I waited into that group and got him out of there and he stayed in my hip pocket the rest of the day and so that was the first time.

But my things have things have changed a lot over the past 16 years since we since we did that really changed a tremendous amount. Well you know rich I think I'll have you do is I have you hand the in the cell phone there over to one of our one of our young volunteers here who's been just just wondering how he was ever gonna get on the air other than calling into the program.

And you know what you're still calling into the program Brandon. That's a terrible terrible thing. But you're on the phone. I'll never get away from it. That's okay. Brandon is I'm not gonna say how old Brandon is because that would be embarrassing but but let's just say that Brandon has significantly more hair than than I do on his head and and he keeps reminding me of that as we're up here.

But you are you know help pass out tracks last October. Right. Right. And then you're enjoying a cruise. Not Brandon. You weren't. And well speaking of the cruise. No no I won't put the put the plug in there.

But and then you're up here. You were at the debate last night. Yes. And so you've. You've sort of gotten accustomed to the way we do things and some of the stuff we're up to. But you haven't gotten as many conversations today as you want to have had.