July 18, 2022 Show with Dr. David Lawrence on “Discovering Sovereign Grace While in the Church of Christ’s Halls of Academia”

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July 19, 2022

July 18, 2022 Dr. DAVID LAWRENCE, former Professor of History @ Lipscomb University & currently the Scholar in Residence @ Stephens Valley Church of Nashville, Tennessee, who will address: “DISCOVERING SOVEREIGN GRACE WHILE in the CHURCH of CHRIST’s HALLS of ACADEMIA: The THEOLOGICAL JOURNEY of a PROFESSOR in a PROMINENT CHURCH of CHRIST UNIVERSITY”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 18th day of July 2022.
01:30: Some of you may have heard me in the beginning of a recent interview announce that the
01:37: Church of Christ, also known as the Restoration Movement, had a large role to play in me beginning to search and study and fall in love with the
01:51: Scriptures when I was a young man starting in my teenage years and lasting through my early 20s.
02:01: I was raised Roman Catholic and had come to distrust that religious system, and by the time
02:11: I was 15 years old, had ceased regularly attending a Roman Catholic church. My brother
02:17: Bob, my senior in five years, he began to attend the
02:27: Bethpage Church of Christ in Nassau County, Long Island, New York. He made a profession of being a born -again
02:35: Christian and began to evangelize me very frequently and heavily, and I began attending that congregation as a visitor for quite a number of years, although never being baptized in that congregation nor becoming a permanent member there.
02:56: I eventually got saved in a Reformed Baptist church, but I still feel a great measure of indebtedness to the
03:06: Church of Christ and specific individuals I know from that movement that led me to, for the first time in my life, open up the
03:17: Scriptures and begin to study them. Therefore, because of that, I love to hear stories about those who have come to further truth from that background.
03:34: And today is a guest who is going to be doing just that, telling us his story about his discoveries theologically while in the
03:45: Church of Christ. Today we have as our guest for the very first time Dr.
03:51: David Lawrence, a former minister at Milton Avenue Church of Christ in Truman, Arkansas, former minister at Smith Springs Church of Christ in Nashville, Tennessee, former professor of history at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee, and currently the scholar -in -residence at Stevens Valley Church of Nashville, Tennessee.
04:12: We're going to be discovering—we're going to be addressing discovering sovereign grace while in the
04:17: Church of Christ's halls of academia, the theological journey of a professor in a prominent
04:23: Church of Christ university, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Dr.
04:30: David Lawrence. Thank you, Chris. It's my privilege to be here.
04:35: You and I share quite a bit in common, your story and mine in parallel, except I did not have a
04:41: Catholic experience. Yes, and of course I was—unlike you—I was not a minister in the
04:49: Church of Christ nor a professor in a prominent college from that background. I was basically an outsider, frequently visiting, and becoming more and more intrigued and fascinated by the
05:03: Holy Scriptures by doing so. Well, first of all, tell our listeners about Stevens Valley Church of Christ, and am
05:09: I pronouncing it correctly because I don't know if it's— You are. Okay. Because it could—someone could—someone could, because of the spelling, pronounce it
05:16: Steffens. That's a statement. Tell us about that church.
05:22: It's a new congregation. It's a new congregation, recently established. We advertise as being biblical,
05:31: Reformed, and independent. Most of our members came from background of Presbyterian Church in America, PCA, but recently we've had a number of people come from the
05:44: Methodist Church, and the church is growing. It's a good congregation. We're in the southwest part of Nashville, and that's a growing community.
05:54: And is your congregation a confessional church, or sometimes churches may love, appreciate the confession and use elements from it, whether it be the
06:04: Westminster Standards or the 1689 London Baptist Confession, or the Three Forms of Unity. So is it a strict confessional adherence or more of a—
06:16: Yes. Strictly confessional. Yes, indeed. Primarily the Westminster Standards, also the
06:22: Heidelberg Catechism, those two. But yes, we follow it very closely. We are in agreement with it.
06:29: All people who are on the staff, all elders, pastors, are required to adhere to it, certainly.
06:36: Now, people—the members do not necessarily have to, but the teaching will always be in accord with the
06:42: Westminster Standards. Great. And if anybody has any further information that they'd like to learn about this congregation, go to stephensvalley .church,
06:54: and Stephens is spelled S -T -E -P -H -E -N -S, valley .church,
07:01: and God willing, we'll be repeating that information later on in the program. Well, as we have a custom to do here,
07:10: David, on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, whenever we air a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our
07:28: Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives and drew them to himself and saved them, and that would include you.
07:35: So I'd love to hear your story. All right. You can hear it. I will say
07:41: I was brought up in a family that believed in God.
07:48: They were not affiliated with any church. My dad had a Baptist background.
07:54: My mother's family attended the Disciples of Christ, and the Disciples of Christ are part of the same movement as the
08:01: Church of Christ. They were known as the Christian Church, but to distinguish them from a more conservative branch, we called them the
08:10: Independence Christian Church. They're often called Disciples of Christ. So I will say, when
08:17: I was brought up, I was a believer, but not committed. I just had a belief in God.
08:24: I can recall as a child, I did pray every day. So that says to me that the
08:30: Spirit was working to some degree in my heart. But as far as going to church, my parents were not opposed.
08:39: They would like to see me go. Matter of fact, my mother tried to, I would say, force me.
08:45: She was very demanding that I go, but I didn't want to. I just had no interest in it.
08:52: I can remember my mother's family went to the Disciples Church. There's a church in Springfield, Missouri, the
08:59: South Street Christian Church. Most of my mother's family who went to church went there. One of mother's brothers went to a
09:06: Methodist church. I just couldn't get interested. They did get invited to a
09:12: Baptist church in our neighborhood by some of our neighbors. We did go for a while.
09:20: That church, I liked. My parents didn't like it so well. They thought the pastor talked too much about money.
09:27: That didn't work out. By the time I got to my senior year in high school,
09:33: I was still not going anywhere. That meant I had not made a firm profession of faith.
09:40: I had not been baptized. I had a class as a senior, a teacher by the name of Mrs.
09:48: Beck. This was the Springfield High School at the time. It's the Central High School today.
09:55: Maybe you wouldn't have this happen so much in school today, a public school, but she was very insistent that I come to South Street Christian because she taught
10:07: Sunday school there as well as teaching classes in the high school. Well, of course,
10:12: I was very polite. I would say, yes, I'll try to come. I had no intention of coming.
10:20: But she kept on. She would say something to me, usually on a Friday before we left.
10:25: Then on Monday, she would say, David, I didn't see you in class or in Sunday school.
10:32: I'm sorry, Mrs. Beck. But one Friday, she actually elicited from me a firm promise.
10:42: I've given my teacher a promise I can't back down. So that Sunday morning,
10:50: I got up and drove the car that my dad and I shared.
10:56: I think it was a 1942 Chevrolet. I was headed down a street in Springfield, Elm Street, not far from my house.
11:06: Headed towards South Street Christian. And there was an awareness. This is it.
11:13: There's no turning back. This is for the rest of my life. This is forever. And I think,
11:22: I think as I look back on it, that's when God called me. So I went on to South Street Christian.
11:31: And I continued to go. And then my family started coming. And we were all baptized on the same day, one year there.
11:40: And I also made a decision to enter the ministry while I was there.
11:46: Wow. I didn't know what I was getting into. Just for sake of clarification, brother, because I know that a lot of Church of Christ listeners may be getting upset for being affiliated with Disciples of Christ.
12:03: When you were attending that church, was it as liberal as it is today?
12:10: I mean, today you have even homosexuality being endorsed and welcomed and all kinds of very left -leaning things that one might put under the umbrella of apostasy.
12:25: So what was the nature of the Disciples of Christ back then, or at least that congregation that you were in back then?
12:33: Yes. Well, that's interesting. It was on the way to becoming more liberal.
12:42: But it was not there yet. So I'd say it's right in the middle. We had some pastors who were much more conservative and those who were much more liberal.
12:51: As I recall, there were four Christian churches in Springfield. And probably this church was almost the most liberal.
13:03: There was one more, I think, that would have exceeded it. So it was a process. I think today it has just gone on and continued until they are far away from a biblical posture.
13:15: But there were a lot of discussions back there. And I, of course, was just beginning to learn about Scripture, but I was aware of conflict.
13:24: I was aware of differences of opinion. But it was, for the most part, it was a very good experience in just the few years that I was there.
13:37: Then I had a friend, and we had been friends since kindergarten, I think.
13:43: I would say he reached the point of being my best friend. We were friends all through school, through college as well.
13:51: And we kept it going into adulthood. He passed away a few years ago.
13:56: But this friend was a member of the Church of Christ. And he was, this particular church in Springfield was probably the most conservative.
14:08: Now, in the mainline Church of Christ, they would call them antis. They had a doctrine called against institutionalism, non -institutional.
14:20: And they meant by that they did not believe in supporting orphan homes. They did not believe in having churches collectively support a missionary.
14:28: They didn't have dinners in the building and so forth. Very, very strict. Now, that kind of division in the
14:35: Church of Christ was just underway at the time that I began to dialogue with my friend.
14:42: He and I talked at length, and he would point out and say, Now, David, you don't have biblical authority for this, for instance, instrumental music.
14:51: You need to have biblical authority for everything. And he often would ridicule my belief as a member of the
15:00: Christian church. Not rudely, but I felt it. I felt that he was highly critical of the
15:08: Christian church. So for a while I was on the fence, and then I decided,
15:13: I'll just go for it. I'll go to the Church of Christ. At the time,
15:19: I was preaching for a small Christian church near Springfield, Sparta, Missouri.
15:26: And doing fine with that, but of course I had to leave that. And when
15:33: I left the Christian church, there were many people disappointed. The Christian church did operate the school of theology or the school of religion at the college
15:44: I was attending, which was Drury College. So a lot of people were disappointed with me, and a lot of people in the
15:50: Church of Christ were very happy with me. So I started attending. It was the
15:56: Southside Church of Christ in Springfield, Missouri. And soon my parents, who had begun at the
16:04: Christian church, they followed me to the Christian church. Then they followed me to the Church of Christ, and also my sister.
16:11: So there were four of us then who were in this congregation. I will say, pretty loving congregation on the whole.
16:19: We made good friends, close friends, and they were very supportive of me.
16:26: That was a situation when I got married and I started preaching.
16:34: First place to preach was in Charleston, Arkansas, right after we got married.
16:40: And three years there, then I moved to Truman, as you mentioned that earlier, Truman, Arkansas. After three years there, and I will say this before I leave
16:48: Truman, that was probably the most Christ -like congregation of any of them.
16:55: They were supposedly very conservative, anti -institutional and so forth, but they behaved like Christians.
17:05: They reflected Christ in their lives, I will say that. But because I was not making enough money, our first son was born there in Truman, and he had a lot of health issues.
17:19: So we made the decision that I needed to go somewhere else, and so we had an opportunity to go to Wichita, Kansas.
17:26: I went to a church there. And I will say, Chris, that it was there that I came face -to -face with full -blown legalism and the evil of it.
17:40: And I really hadn't thought about that much. The people I'd met were reasonable people, but the people in this congregation were not so.
17:49: It was just startling, the degree of suspicion and hatred and the way they put everybody to the test.
18:00: So at that point I began to doubt legalism. I didn't doubt the
18:06: Church of Christ yet. So after being there ten years, and we should have left earlier, we made a decision to go to what
18:14: I call a mainline Church of Christ and spent ten years there. It was a pleasant experience.
18:22: I worked with a gentleman who was the lead pastor there, and we had a very good relationship.
18:28: Then, 1986, I had the opportunity to accept a position at Lipscomb.
18:36: It was David Lipscomb College then. It's Lipscomb University now. And so I moved to Nashville in 1986 to take this position in the history department at Lipscomb, and I remained there for 25 years.
18:49: Wow. And by the way, when you referred to one of the leaders at a church where you were very happy to belong to, you used the word lead pastor.
19:03: Was that a phrase that they used? No. I didn't think so, because most of the churches, in fact every
19:09: Church of Christ that I'm aware of, would either call what we would call a pastor, they would either call him the minister or the evangelist.
19:20: Correct. I'm using the word pastor because you and I use it today. Right, right.
19:25: Today, if we have a pastor, and most of your audience would use that, I'm sure. While you bring that up,
19:33: I had a conversation once with the chairman of my department, history department at Lipscomb, and he wrote a history of the
19:40: Church of Christ. A very well -educated man, done a lot of thinking on Church of Christ. And he commented to me one day, he said, you know
19:48: David, we, meaning Church of Christ, we have our own vocabulary. And that is true.
19:54: Pastor is just one example. Nearly every word that is used by Christians, they have a different word.
20:01: And the point is, they want to be different. They do not want to be recognized as just another denomination.
20:09: They don't even claim to be a denomination. They say we are the one true church. So we don't talk about revivals.
20:16: We talk about gospel meetings, for instance. You don't talk about a sanctuary. You talk about an auditorium, and so forth.
20:23: You don't talk about a sermon. You talk about a lesson. And that just ran down the line.
20:29: Oh really? I wasn't aware of the last one. They don't call them sermons? No, they don't use the word sermon.
20:36: Oh wow. Somehow that escaped me when I, all the times that I've been. Now they might.
20:41: I'm just saying in my experience, it was always lessons. You preach a lesson. So, yes.
20:51: And as I began to move away from Church of Christ, I began to use terms that were much more commonly used among the
20:58: Christian community generally. Maybe it would be a good idea for us to even explain to our listeners who are unfamiliar with this movement.
21:07: They may have driven past a church that says Church of Christ on the building.
21:13: Typically small C for church, capital C for Christ. That doesn't even necessarily mean the church is attached to the 19th century restoration movement.
21:26: But they may have seen these churches, heard about people in them. One of the most famous that at one time was a minister in that movement was
21:38: Max Lucado. He no longer associates with the Church of Christ. In fact, I know
21:44: Max personally. I haven't spoken with him in years. And was at one point very happy to see the progression in his development of theological issues.
21:55: But then I thought that he definitely went way too far to the left in certain areas, very important areas.
22:03: Often the case. I'm sorry? Well, it's often the case. The Church of Christ today is changing.
22:12: Because I think people realize the limitations of legalism. There's no joy in it.
22:19: It's dismal. It's cold. So there is an awakening. I would like to say an awakening to grace, but they don't really understand grace as Reformed people understand grace.
22:31: They would understand it more as just being nice and pleasant and relying more upon God, of course.
22:38: But in this change, there are churches that are going in a direction that I think is more biblical.
22:46: But there are churches that are simply escaping from legalism and moving in what you and I would say a liberal direction.
22:54: But to give more details about the background, this was a movement that began in the 19th century.
23:00: Started by Thomas Campbell and his son Alexander. And then they became affiliated with Barton Stone.
23:08: And I just had a fascinating interview recently with a brother who is still a minister in the
23:20: Church of Christ in Calgary, Alberta, Ontario, Canada, Kelly Carter.
23:29: And we discussed his book, The Trinity in the Stone -Campbell Movement, Recovering the
23:36: Heart of Christian Faith. He's a very strong Trinitarian and believes in the historical, biblical, classical understanding of the
23:48: Trinity. And believes that is an area sorely lacking in the
23:54: Restoration Movement. Because for some reason, back in the 19th century, and you can correct me if you disagree with anything
24:03: I'm saying, Thomas and Alexander Campbell were strong Trinitarians, although being so, did not like using the term because the term
24:15: Trinity wasn't in the Bible. And for some reason that I can't comprehend, they chose nonetheless to have an ecumenical relationship with Barton W.
24:27: Stone and the churches that sprang up as a result of his revival meetings, even though Barton Stone was very anti -Trinitarian.
24:42: And to this day, the Church of Christ, they have always believed themselves to be a church seeking unity.
24:54: And these things that they unify over are a relatively small handful of things that they are militant about.
25:08: Typically, and even some things that you and I might agree with. I know that I agree with the more conservative
25:16: Churches of Christ in their exclusive male headship. I agree in their belief in each church being independent and autonomous, having no hierarchical structure outside the elders of that congregation, and having no higher authority outside that congregation other than Jesus Christ and the
25:38: Scriptures themselves. Non -denominational. And there are a number of things that you and I would agree with.
25:50: Since you're a Pato Baptist, you would disagree with their insistence upon immersion, as I would, but not for the remission of sins as being required for the remission of sins.
26:05: But it seems that outside of those things, which very often they are militant to the point of excluding everyone that doesn't follow in lockstep with them over that relatively small number of things, to the point of they don't recognize many of them.
26:26: And I have to keep reminding my audience, I'm not saying every congregation, and perhaps even today that might not even be the majority view, but over the years they believed if you are obedient to this small handful of beliefs, believing that you could lose your salvation.
26:49: And in fact, many of the folks that I met and befriended in my days of searching were so militant about strictly a cappella worship, that was actually a salvific issue.
27:04: If you had a piano in your church, that was a sign that church is damned. But in spite of that unity that all these churches have had over those issues, to my knowledge, ever since the inception of the
27:21: Church of Christ, there has been infighting and battles going on everywhere from friendly disagreement to harsh disfellowship and so on over other issues that are not involved in those main core areas.
27:40: And you even mentioned about the non -institutional groups, and I mentioned this the last time
27:45: I was speaking about the Church of Christ with Kelly Carter. I know of a church in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, about 40 minutes from where I'm sitting, that disfellowshipped the local
28:01: Church of Christ here in Carlisle, because they have a kitchen in their building. And to me...
28:08: That's a non -institutional church. Yeah, and to me that's lunacy. I mean, because if they have a bathroom in their building,
28:17: I don't know how they justify that, but maybe they should have an outhouse or something.
28:24: But it's just bizarre. When you get to that point, and of course there are others that insist on only using one cup in the
28:32: Lord's Supper. I have even heard that there are some that... I don't even know if they exist anymore, but there were some that insisted that you have the
28:40: Lord's Supper in an upper room. I've heard of that one. There are those that believe that you can't have any
28:48: Sunday schools, and that there could not be local preachers, so they didn't believe in that.
28:55: We've got all kinds of varieties. And here in Nashville, being the headquarters, I think, of the largest concentration of the
29:03: Churches of Christ in one place, in Texas, that are that way.
29:12: But here you'll find just about anything. We've got churches right around in the neighborhood that believe all kinds of things.
29:19: Going back to stone and camel, Chris, you're right in saying this is a movement that had unity as its purpose.
29:30: All of these men, stone and two camels, and others, there were some from the
29:37: Baptist Church, a man named Smith, and there was a
29:43: Methodist, but people who were concerned about division, about how the Church is divided up into so many denominations.
29:51: So the idea, the guiding philosophy of particular stone and camel was, let's get together and just be united and just be
30:00: Christians. Christians, that's it. Yeah, they used to have a slogan, which they probably still do, we're not the only
30:08: Christians, but we are Christians only. Yes. And that motto was not really followed, because they actually many, and at one time perhaps most, believed they were the only
30:20: Christians. It developed into that. They didn't start with that intention, but it developed quickly that, well, we are
30:29: Christians only, and therefore what we're doing is right, and what others are doing can't be right because of their divisions, and so then it evolved into we are the only
30:41: Christians. I do remember when I was in the Disciples Church that we would often point out that we believed that we were
30:48: Christians only and not the only Christians. But in the Church of Christ, the idea of being, and they used the term denominational.
30:57: If you belong to any other church, you are denominational. That's an interesting adjective. And so they are wrong.
31:05: And let me say up front that the idea, the prevalent idea, and certainly until recently, and I know this from people with whom
31:14: I talk, is if you are in a denomination, you're going to hell.
31:20: You're not going to be saved. There's no possibility of salvation, because Christ saves his body, salvation is found in the body, and the body is the
31:30: Church of Christ, not these other things. Right. We have to go to our first break. If you have a question for David Lawrence about the
31:38: Church of Christ, about his particular journey in discovering the doctrines of sovereign grace while in the
31:44: Church of Christ, while not only being a minister but being a professor in a prominent Church of Christ university, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
31:54: chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
32:01: Only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are in a
32:07: Church of Christ and you want to ask a question about something that would make you feel uncomfortable if others knew your identity, something like that.
32:16: Maybe you're even a minister in the Church of Christ and you have a similar kind of question. We understand.
32:22: We will allow you to remain anonymous. But if you're asking a general question, we ask of you to please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
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32:59: G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held
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38:08: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is
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39:39: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org
39:46: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
40:06: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
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41:25: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?
41:32: Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
41:41: Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.
41:48: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire two -hour program is
41:55: David Lawrence, a former Church of Christ minister and former professor at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee, one of their most prominent universities in the
42:08: Church of Christ. And we are discussing today our guest's discovery of sovereign grace while in the
42:19: Church of Christ's halls of academia, the theological journey of a professor in a prominent Church of Christ university.
42:25: If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com
42:34: As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. And we have a listener who is not asking a question, but he wants to give you a word of encouragement.
42:51: We usually don't give full names, but since this person is a friend of yours,
42:57: I will let you know. His name is Tim Alexander. And he said,
43:03: Served with Dr. Lawrence for years at Smith Springs. Have been immensely blessed by his example, friendship, and pastoral guidance.
43:10: God bless you richly. I'm going to mention Tim as we get into the story a little bit down the line.
43:17: And just to recap where we were when we left off before the break, I was saying that it's an anomaly that the
43:27: Church of Christ was formed, known as the Restoration Movement in the 19th century, starting with Thomas and Alexander Campbell, and then later
43:41: Barton W. Stone. And although there were a core number of beliefs, and a comparatively small number of beliefs, which they rigidly insisted you must believe to be a
43:57: Christian, at least that's what later became the mindset, there were a lot of other things that the group began disagreeing over in -house, and that went from being friendly in -house collegiate disagreements to very severe, sharp, nasty and hateful divisions.
44:24: And it baffles me that they would be more concerned over certain beliefs like the necessity of being immersed in water for the remission of sins and acapella worship, that those would become more, vastly more important than the nature of God himself, going back to our discussion that belief in the
44:55: Trinity seemed to be an optional thing. Yes. And you're correct in what you're talking about.
45:03: Barton Stone would not affirm the Trinity in any measure. He talked about the at -one -month, talking about dying for an example of love.
45:14: And we sometimes hear that even today. Now, some people in the Church of Christ, my wife says, she was brought up in the
45:21: Church of Christ, she said she always believed in the Trinity, and yet I have met people who were shocked when you talked about Trinity.
45:29: So it certainly wasn't taught, and you're correct, Chris, that they majored in minors. And all of these trivial things became salvational issues.
45:40: But what you're seeing is the nature and result of legalism. In legalism, there are no small issues.
45:48: Everything is important. And this is more important, keeping everything correctly, keeping all of these little, minute commandments, following examples that soon become law, even inferences become law.
46:03: That really just obscures the great doctrines of salvation in the
46:09: Bible. Even when I can remember some of those dear friends, and even my brother, who seem to be determined to drag me into a pool of water large enough for me to be immersed in it, they seem to have little concern about what
46:28: I understood about God, about who God is. So when you were saying that everything is important, it didn't seem that that was important.
46:40: They are concerned, Chris, that you understand, and it is articulated, that you're baptized for the remission of sins.
46:50: Yes. You're not baptized for the remission of sins, you have to be re -baptized.
46:56: But to go beyond that to the nature of Christ and to what salvation is, that doesn't seem to be emphasized so much.
47:06: And interestingly enough, I heard that Alexander Campbell, who was baptized by a Baptist minister, was never re -baptized.
47:13: I think that's correct. Now, Campbell, these three men, the two
47:18: Campbells and Stone, had different views. Thomas Campbell was more a traditional
47:26: Christian. He believed the doctrines of the Bible. He came from a
47:31: Reformed background. He came from Presbyterianism. But he was disenchanted by the divisions among the
47:38: Presbyterians. Alexander, his son, was an
47:43: Enlightenment man. He was influenced very much by the doctrines of people like Thomas Paine and others.
47:54: And consequently, he was not that involved with genuine
48:01: Christianity. And of course, Stone was really not at all.
48:08: I would question his even being a Christian. And then out of this idea of unity, it devolved into, as you mentioned,
48:17: Chris, quite correctly, squabbles. And the squabbles seem to be increasingly over less important objects.
48:28: I will say this. The emphasis that the Church of Christ makes on the inspiration of the
48:35: Bible, which most of them still make, some are beginning to back away from it, but most of them make, is one of the strong points.
48:42: And those of us, and there are a large number of us that I know, certainly in the Nashville area, who have come out of the
48:48: Church of Christ background and are grateful for the instruction in regard to the inspiration of the
48:56: Bible. And so now bring us to the point, a very important point of the story, when you first began to hear about the doctrines of sovereign grace, also nicknamed reform theology, and also nicknamed
49:13: Calvinism, although not all the adherents to that system of thought bear those titles.
49:20: At the same time, we know what we're talking about here when we're talking about the doctrines of God's sovereignty,
49:28: His control over all things, including salvation. But if you could, where did that come from?
49:35: I was thinking, Chris, this morning, the things that have happened in my life, and this is true of everyone, you look back on it at this point and say, there were no coincidences there.
49:45: This was all the unfolding of the plan of God, for which I'm very grateful. And as I progress through my life,
49:53: I can look back and see things that helped shape my understanding of salvation. For instance,
50:00: I think you mentioned a moment ago about this doctrine that you can lose your salvation, and therefore,
50:08: Church of Christ disapproves highly of what they call once saved, always saved.
50:14: That's heresy if you teach it. So, of course, when I became a member of the Church of Christ, I saw that it was my responsibility to try to convert everybody around me and the people in my family.
50:25: I certainly made myself obnoxious to a number of them, but I was very close to my dad's brother and his wife, my aunt and uncle that lived in Texas, but we got together quite often, and so I thought, well,
50:40: I'll convert Uncle Marlo and Aunt Bill to the Church of Christ. I was not successful.
50:46: They were Baptists, and they understood very well some things that I didn't understand.
50:51: So I tried to lay upon them the doctrine that you can lose your salvation, and I argued with my
50:57: Uncle Marlo, I can walk away from Christ, and he looked at me and said,
51:03: David, I know you. You can say you can walk away from Christ, but I know you, and you will never do it.
51:09: And that just stuck in my mind, and so I have believed from way back that I would not lose my salvation, but I dared not to preach it until much later in my experience because that just couldn't be done.
51:25: But as far as being exposed to reform thinking, I would mention
51:31: I taught for 15 years in Wichita, Kansas at Wichita Collegiate School, which is a private college preparatory school.
51:44: Most of the, well, many, let's say, many of the faculty at that time were reformed, including the chairman of the board and the headmaster, and consequently, they would bring onto campus speakers.
52:02: We were allowed to teach. I was the chairman of the Christian Studies Department for a while, so we brought in people who were from different backgrounds, but they would manage to bring in reformed people, including
52:15: R .C. Sproul. Wow, and if you could pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to the midway break. Okay.
52:20: I'm excited to hear about this. R .C. Sproul is a very prominent hero in my life, but if anybody would like to send in a question, we have some people waiting to have their questions asked, and if you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
52:37: chrisarnson at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Please be patient with us because this is the midway break that is longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90 .1
52:50: FM. They require of us a longer break because the FCC requires them to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize
53:00: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida. While they do that, we air our globally heard commercials, so please be patient with us, and we'll be right back right after these messages with more of David Lawrence.
53:14: Yeah. Back again,
53:21: Ricky. Attention all men in ministry leadership.
53:28: You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.
53:37: to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring me,
53:42: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free, brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the
53:57: United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
54:03: So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership, please register for the
54:11: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002 631 -291 -7002 or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com
54:29: ironsharpensironradio .com This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you
54:34: Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, for Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon.
54:59: If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions.
55:11: How do you make your savings last? How much should you take out? And when? You're ready for retirement, but are your finances?
55:19: Art Amundson, an Edward Jones financial advisor, can help you build a strategy to help make sure your finances keep up with your long -term needs.
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55:35: That's edwardjones .com Or call 717 -258 -4688 717 -258 -4688
55:45: We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support of Art Amundson, Edward Jones financial advisor in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
55:57: Call 717 -258 -4688 today. Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the
56:10: Shoals. Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.
56:21: Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants, as well as radio stations, theological seminaries, and various programs for unreached people groups.
56:32: With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel, it is a blessing to see how
56:39: God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as locally.
56:47: Find out more about this vital work worldwide and visit anchoredintruth .org
57:03: I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville -Presbyterian
57:11: Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the
57:16: Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
57:22: Westminster Larger Catechism titled, Authentic Christianity, by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.
57:29: It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
57:41: Dr. Morecraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
57:51: For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com
57:59: For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com
58:09: heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.
58:16: Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Music When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the
58:41: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
58:49: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
58:56: This is Darrell Bernard Harrison co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast and the NASB is my
59:02: Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas and the
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59:54: NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
59:59: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?
01:00:05: Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:00:15: Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order.
01:00:23: Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com
01:00:32: website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the
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01:01:40: And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed Church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
01:01:51: Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Eugenio and thanks for listening. Why can't we see
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01:03:19: I've been a Biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been
01:03:25: Biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes. That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.
01:03:31: We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer
01:03:40: Biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
01:03:47: Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend
01:04:12: Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.
01:04:17: for the G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held
01:04:23: Thursday, September 15th, through Saturday, September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the
01:04:35: Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3men .org, that's g3men .org,
01:04:42: and click on events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.
01:04:50: So join me and Chris Arnzen, September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.,
01:04:55: for the G3 Ministries regional conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3men .org,
01:05:02: that's g3men .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor Building and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.
01:05:16: Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.
01:05:24: He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
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01:05:39: Prince of Preachers to heart. I'm Stephen Lawson. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
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01:06:40: Before I return to my interview with Dr. David Lawrence, a former professor of history at Lipscomb University, one of the most prominent
01:06:49: Church of Christ universities in the nation, on our theme, Discovering Sovereign Grace While in the
01:06:57: Church of Christ's Halls of Academia, we just have a couple more announcements to make. If you love this show, folks,
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01:10:27: And that goes on top of all the things we always have to pay for, the rent, the utilities, and other things that we need to keep this program going.
01:10:36: So please go to www .irontreppernesignradio .com, click support, then click to donate now if indeed you want this program to survive.
01:10:43: Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I may be able to help you find a church, as I have done already with many people spanning the globe in our audience.
01:10:56: I have extensive lists all around the world of biblically faithful churches, and I may have a church or a number of churches that are close to you that you weren't even aware of before.
01:11:09: So send me an email if you're in that predicament to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
01:11:15: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to David Lawrence.
01:11:23: Dr. David Lawrence, as we've already mentioned, is a former Church of Christ minister and former professor of history at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee, one of their most prominent universities in the
01:11:35: Church of Christ. He's currently scholar -in -residence at Stevens Valley Church of Nashville, Tennessee, which is an independent
01:11:42: Reformed congregation, and we're addressing discovering sovereign grace while in the Church of Christ's halls of academia, the theological journey of a professor in a prominent
01:11:52: Church of Christ university. If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:11:58: And before we go to any of our listener questions, we were right at the point where you heard about a speaking engagement that Dr.
01:12:08: R .C. Sproul was going to conduct at the very school where you are teaching, a private
01:12:15: Christian school. I'm not speaking of Lipscomb University here. I'm speaking of, I believe, a church in Wichita, Kansas, if I'm not mistaken, a school in Kansas, but you can correct me on that.
01:12:27: And this was a school that had faculty from Reformed backgrounds and also was welcoming to you, a
01:12:36: Church of Christ minister, to be on the faculty. So pick up where we left off. Yes, you're getting to the most exciting part now, this journey to grace.
01:12:46: Yes, I taught 15 years there, a very pleasant situation. At that time, they offered
01:12:52: Bible courses, Christian studies courses. They weren't affiliated with any denomination, but because the chairman of the board,
01:13:00: Robert Love, and the headmaster at that time became
01:13:08: Reformed, they did invite Reformed speakers. R .C. Sproul was one.
01:13:14: John Gerstner was invited. I have still an outline of Romans from Dr. Gerstner.
01:13:19: Wow. Another one of my heroes of the faith, now in heaven with R .C. Sproul. It was interesting to meet him.
01:13:26: And, of course, at that point, I resented these people. Now I really appreciate it. Also, they hired a young man named
01:13:35: Jerry Matazik to teach Bible there. This is when he was
01:13:42: Reformed? That was when he was Reformed, yes. Yes, and he has become a Roman Catholic, and not only
01:13:48: Roman Catholic, he has more recently become a Seda Vacantist, a more right -wing sect within Catholicism.
01:13:55: Yes. But Jerry was Reformed then, and so he and I had a lot of conversations.
01:14:02: He tried to persuade me. At this point, I wish he had. My wife had invited him over one time for dinner, and I remember him staying until the wee hours of the morning.
01:14:13: And he finally concluded, and he said, David, if you and I would teach the same gospel here, we could do so much good.
01:14:19: Well, of course, I wasn't ready for that, and unfortunately, Jerry went off into the Catholic Church then. But the influence
01:14:27: I had at Collegiate stuck in my mind. I suppressed it as much as I could.
01:14:33: I was trying to fight it. I remember when R .C. was there one time. He delivered a lecture to one of my classes.
01:14:39: He came in my class, and he talked about the five points of Calvinism, T -U -L -I -P.
01:14:45: And I waited until he was safely gone to unwind his lecture and got in trouble for that.
01:14:52: But as much as I tried to repress it and fight it, it stuck.
01:14:58: It was back in my mind. So in 1986, I was invited to come to Nashville to accept a position in the history department.
01:15:07: And I thought, well, I'll get away from Calvinism at Collegiate, and I'll get away from denominationalism, as I would call it, and I will go into the very heart of Church of Christ.
01:15:21: I had 25 years at Lipscomb. Good college, good university today, wonderful people with whom
01:15:28: I taught. And I had no anticipation of any idea that I would actually become
01:15:37: Reformed. And it's a very interesting series of events. It started with my younger son,
01:15:46: John, coming into my office at Lipscomb one day, and he said,
01:15:52: Dad, I want to talk to you. And I said, fine, sit down. What do you want to talk about? And he said, I want to tell you about my life.
01:15:59: I said, yes, what? He said, I want to tell you about my sin. And he just went on to say that he was in a situation where he felt utterly hopeless.
01:16:12: And he said, one night, God broke me, and then
01:16:17: I knew grace. And I was just surprised. I hadn't heard that coming out of his mouth before, and very seldom out of the mouth of anybody in Church of Christ.
01:16:30: And so he started to leave the office, and I said, John, knowing what was planted back in my mind by my uncle,
01:16:39: I said, John, if that's the case, you never could leave Christ. And he said, no. And that just had a tremendous influence on me.
01:16:49: So I found that the idea of grace was creeping into my sermons at Smith Spring.
01:16:57: I was preaching with, I guess, the lead preacher, pastor there, David Gaylor at the time, but I preached some on Sunday morning and always on Sunday night.
01:17:08: But I would mention grace. And then I remember one Wednesday night, I was leaving after our midweek
01:17:18: Bible study, and one of the elders confronted me in the hall. I will use only his first name.
01:17:25: I don't feel that it's appropriate for me to give his last name right now. If Tim Alexander is listening, he'll know exactly about whom
01:17:31: I'm speaking. His name is Danny. And he said, David, I hear you're interested in grace.
01:17:39: And I said, yes. And he said, have you ever heard of R .C.
01:17:44: Sproul? I said, yes, I've met him. I don't like him. I don't like his teaching. And then he said, listen to me.
01:17:56: Dr. Sproul teaches the doctrine of predestination. I said, yes, I know that. I've been fighting it. And he said, well, predestination is the basis of the gospel.
01:18:06: I said, what? I can't believe that. He said, we need to study. So I know he had been doing some study.
01:18:14: He'd been reading some of R .C.'s books, which is Chosen by God. And it so happened, you can see how
01:18:20: God worked this out, let's say no coincidences, that there was to be a
01:18:25: Ligonier, a full Ligonier conference in Memphis very shortly from the time, whatever that time was, it was 1994.
01:18:36: But he said, let's go. So my wife and I, Danny and his wife,
01:18:42: David Gaylor, the other preacher, and his wife, and another one of our elders, Jacob and his wife, so that meant eight of us went to Memphis, which is not a long drive from Nashville.
01:18:53: And we met at Independent Presbyterian Church there and attended this conference, which changed the lives of all of us.
01:19:03: And I can remember, and I'm sure you, Chris, are familiar with Albert Martin. Oh yeah,
01:19:09: Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, New Jersey. I've met him on a number of occasions and I've heard him preach on even more occasions.
01:19:18: Yes, Al Martin. And of course I didn't know anything about Al Martin. But I and the other elder who was along attended his session, one of these breakout sessions, teaching sessions that Ligonier offers.
01:19:31: It was called, Call to Account. And he was talking about how man is completely responsible, how
01:19:38: God is completely sovereign. It was so powerful, and since you've heard Al Martin preach, you know what
01:19:44: I'm talking about. It was so powerful that the other elder, his name was Jacob, Jacob and I came out of that class literally physically trembling.
01:19:54: In fact, Al Martin could make you tremble reading the phone book. Well, he did.
01:20:00: He was not reading the phone book. He was preaching the gospel. And yes, it was an experience never to be forgotten.
01:20:06: Danny was not in that class, but he did go to it then and had the same impression on him. So when we came back to Nashville and to Smith Springs, Church of Christ, where all of us were members, when we came back, we were on fire.
01:20:23: We were definitely changed. We were definitely embracing Reformed theology. And of course,
01:20:29: I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I was so excited. So I got up in the pulpit and I quickly got in trouble with one of the elders there when
01:20:39: I preached that our salvation was secure. We were not going to lose it. So this elder went to Danny, who was one of the elders, and said, you've got to do something about David.
01:20:50: He's teaching once saved, always saved. And Danny said to him, wait a minute,
01:20:58: I also believe that. And this elder said, what? And so the decision was, let's get together.
01:21:04: Let's get the elders together and the two ministers and let's study. That's very interesting.
01:21:11: They brought me in to teach and we spent many weeks just going through the Bible when we concluded all of the elders, there were five of them, and two ministers were on the same page.
01:21:24: And that had to be the work of God. Praise God. Yeah, in the Church of Christ. And now
01:21:30: I will say, it didn't please everybody in the congregation. It took quite a while to persuade a large number and some of them left, but the congregation still went on.
01:21:43: And so I had a chance to preach there with David, who also became Reformed, from 1994 until 1999.
01:21:54: And during that time, I began to associate with some PCA pastors because I met a
01:22:03: Presbyterian pastor, he was in the ARP, but we became good friends and he introduced me to a pastor at Columbia, Tennessee, the name of Arch Warren.
01:22:13: And Arch was also a former Church of Christ minister. And Arch then invited me to this pastor's luncheon.
01:22:21: It was the pastors in the presbytery in Nashville. They got together once a month and that gave me a chance to meet some wonderful people, including the person who is now my pastor,
01:22:32: Jim Bachman. And so I began to be more and more involved with the
01:22:38: Reformed people in Nashville. And that went on until 1999. And in 1999,
01:22:49: I decided, well, I didn't decide, but David decided he was going to retire and step down. And the elders decided
01:22:56: I should step down too, that they wanted to have one full -time minister instead of two part -time ministers.
01:23:03: So that is when Tim Alexander came in. And Tim, I think he would tell you, he's listening to the program, he said to me,
01:23:10: I'm almost there, but not quite. And I think he became fully Reformed during that time.
01:23:17: And that was not what all of them expected. Some of them wanted him. Some of the elders were at that time
01:23:22: Reformed. We brought in some new elders who claimed to be Reformed and were not. But after David and I stepped down, we formed a ministry known as the
01:23:33: Getty Ministries. We had a radio program, we had classes, we offered devotionals, weekly we made recordings.
01:23:42: Back then it was tape recordings. And that ministry went on from 1999 to 2011. All this time
01:23:48: Tim was preaching. And from what I could see, Smith Springs was doing quite well. He was doing a great job preaching, and we have a lot of Reformed people there.
01:23:59: But in 2011, I got a call from a young man who was Reformed saying that Tim had been fired.
01:24:07: And I imagine to this day Tim doesn't know why. I think it was that they just wanted somebody else.
01:24:13: They wanted to get away from anything that caused controversy with the other churches of Christ in the town.
01:24:20: Because at that time we were just cut off, so to speak, this fellowship. So when
01:24:25: Tim was fired, it's the same time that I retired from Lipscomb. Well, being at Lipscomb, all the faculty, full -time faculty, had to be members of a church of Christ.
01:24:35: So I no longer had that obligation. And Tim was not at Smith Springs anymore, which
01:24:40: I just could not continue there with that having happened. So my wife and I decided this is a sign from God for us to leave.
01:24:50: We attended a number of Reformed churches in Nashville, Baptist churches, went to some
01:24:56: Lutheran churches. They're not fully Reformed, of course, but they're close. And we went to PCUSA and PCA churches.
01:25:05: And finally, we agreed that we would go to Covenant Presbyterian.
01:25:11: For one reason, Jim Bachman was the pastor there. I knew a number of the people, many of the people from Covenant had been supportive of our classes at Engedi.
01:25:21: So we went there. A few years later, circumstances were such that we decided to, some of us, to form a new congregation, which is
01:25:30: Stevens Valley, and we called Jim Bachman as the pastor of Stevens Valley. So that kind of takes it up to where it is now.
01:25:37: That's my story. And to me, it has to be the plan of God. It could not be a series of coincidences.
01:25:45: It just flowed along. And it's a wonderful, wonderful experience. Amen. And so what is
01:25:53: Smith Springs Church of Christ like today? Does it have any Reformed identity at all?
01:25:59: Well, actually, Tim has kept up with it better than I, but I do know that recently all of the elders resigned and the preacher resigned and they brought in a young man who was on our board at Engedi, so he's
01:26:15: Reformed, and he's doing the preaching now. And Danny actually went there to preach a couple of weeks ago.
01:26:25: And he made this interesting comment when he got back. I talked to him, it was, I guess, a week ago
01:26:30: Sunday, because he attends, of course, he's at Stevens Valley. He's one of the elders there now. And we usually sit together on Sunday morning.
01:26:38: And I asked him, I said, what was your experience like at Smith Springs? And he said, because he preached on 2
01:26:45: Peter 1, making your calling and election sure, and he said, it's just gone.
01:26:53: I said, is it eviscerated? He said, yes. There's no life there. The people sit, they're friendly, they listen, but it's not like a
01:27:01: Reformed worship service, because they're going through the motions that they've been going through for a long time.
01:27:06: They have about, I think, 60 people there now. I can remember a time when we had so many we had to put chairs in the aisle.
01:27:14: But, in other words, it has not been a positive journey since we left.
01:27:20: Well, that's sad to hear. Now, how long were you an openly Reformed Christian while simultaneously being a professor at Lipscomb University?
01:27:33: From 1994 until 2011 when I retired. Wow. So, what was the atmosphere or the temperature in the room with you and your colleagues?
01:27:47: Did they view you as an apostate? Did they view you just as a brother with seriously flawed ideas?
01:27:54: Did any of them think that this was an acceptable area of disagreement?
01:27:59: Or even, were there any that agreed with you? All of those. Wow. Would be found among them.
01:28:06: Different ones. My colleagues in the history department were very supportive, but they warned me.
01:28:12: Watch my back, you know. And there was this occasion when, of course, the
01:28:18: Bible department was most upset with me. They continually complained. And even, I know that some professors in the
01:28:24: Bible department told their students not to take my classes.
01:28:29: I had a student tell me that. And it finally escalated to the point that the president called me in and said, we've had too many complaints about you.
01:28:39: And he said, I don't want you to say anything. Just be silent while I'm talking.
01:28:46: Okay? So he proceeded to go through my beliefs and explain them away from his standpoint, but I wasn't allowed to say anything.
01:28:57: Well, the upshot was, when he got through with his diatribe, I simply said, can we have prayer?
01:29:05: And I led a prayer. It ended. He did not fire me. And I was tenured at that point.
01:29:12: He would have to prove definitely a cause for my being dismissed.
01:29:18: But as time went on, I think people came to accept I was different. And also,
01:29:24: I had a number of my colleagues in the history department tell me that they had learned a lot that they felt was good.
01:29:31: I think particularly in the area of justification. So during those years, it got better and better.
01:29:38: I decided to stay. I had a chance to dialogue with a number of students, many of whom came to, at least at that time, accept reformed beliefs.
01:29:48: I haven't kept up with them since then. Some I have, but not many. But it's interesting,
01:29:55: Chris, the effect that it had on students. And you know this, I'm sure.
01:30:02: It's a change of life for people. And I give an example from one man, a young man.
01:30:07: He became one of the members of our board in Getty. It was a
01:30:14: Wednesday afternoon. I remember my wife was helping with the Wednesday evening supper at Smith Springs.
01:30:21: And so I needed to go, but Tom said, could I talk to you for a few minutes?
01:30:27: And I said, well, yes. And he said, I want you to understand what you've taught me means.
01:30:35: I said, well, I'm glad it's been helpful. He said, you do not understand what I'm saying. This has saved my life.
01:30:43: And I finally got from him later what he meant by that. He said he had been on drugs.
01:30:50: And he said, did you not notice I was on drugs? I was high every day. I didn't really notice that,
01:30:55: Tom. And he said, I was, and I tried everything. But when I understood how much
01:31:00: God loved me and my salvation was secure in Christ, when I understood these great doctrines of grace, I could not sin anymore.
01:31:07: It gave me the strength and the power to repent of that and to change.
01:31:13: And he went on to be married and I performed his marriage ceremony. And he has a wonderful family now.
01:31:21: And there have been others. Students have said, it saved my marriage. And just things of this sort.
01:31:26: Because, as I mentioned earlier, legalism doesn't do anything for you. Legalism demands that you keep the law.
01:31:34: All of these particular, but you don't get the message of love. You don't get the message of a personal
01:31:39: God and Christ who died for you. And you're going to be, your salvation is secure because of the cross.
01:31:48: That message doesn't come through. And consequently, people suffer. And consequently, these students were suffering.
01:31:55: It was a profitable time. Yes, my dear friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has referred to not only
01:32:05: Roman Catholic, a Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, but even the five -point
01:32:13: Arminian understanding of salvation where you believe that you could lose your salvation at any moment.
01:32:20: He has referred that to not as the true peace and shalom that comes from God when
01:32:29: God saves his children. He has called it a ceasefire. You don't really have peace.
01:32:37: You think that you have a relative measure of peace, but that could become full -scale war with God at any given moment.
01:32:48: And that is not the way God intended his children to live under that kind of fear, living a life where you are not given the complete assurance that you are truly adopted by God and that he is the author and finisher of our faith.
01:33:09: That is so important. That is just vitally important. And people who come to understand their security realize that.
01:33:19: I remember talking to one of my colleagues and he said, well, David, I'm saved today, but I don't know about tomorrow.
01:33:26: Right. Yes, very often I've heard when I've asked Church of Christ individuals that are you going to heaven, they give the same answer that many
01:33:36: Catholics give. I hope so. I hope so. We're going to go to our final break.
01:33:42: It's going to be more brief than the last breaks. And if you have a question, if you want to get in line, there are other people waiting, but if you have a question, please submit it immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:33:53: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with David Lawrence right after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
01:34:16: Excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.
01:34:23: for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held
01:34:29: Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the
01:34:41: Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org. That's g3min .org
01:34:48: and click on Events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.
01:34:56: So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.
01:35:01: for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org.
01:35:08: That's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.
01:35:20: Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.
01:35:27: Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:35:34: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
01:35:42: We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.
01:35:48: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:35:55: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.
01:36:02: Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.
01:36:22: Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,
01:36:30: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.
01:36:38: Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron was
01:36:44: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
01:36:57: Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
01:37:03: Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.
01:37:08: Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
01:37:14: Hanover Presbyterian Church built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
01:37:23: Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the
01:37:31: Reformers, Scripture alone, Grace alone, Faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.
01:37:37: Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit
01:37:44: HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com
01:37:50: Or call 678 -954 -7831 That's 678 -954 -7831
01:37:58: If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoye in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.
01:38:13: Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:38:25: They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.
01:38:32: CVBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
01:38:38: They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices.
01:38:44: Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
01:38:54: That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.
01:39:06: Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
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01:39:20: Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.
01:39:26: That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:39:45: When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
01:39:51: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
01:39:59: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the
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01:40:59: NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
01:41:05: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?
01:41:11: Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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01:41:37: I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
01:41:43: I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
01:41:49: Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
01:41:56: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
01:42:13: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
01:42:21: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
01:42:30: For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,
01:42:36: that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:42:45: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:43:10: If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.
01:43:19: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is
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01:43:31: Daniel, Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?
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01:44:58: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,
01:45:18: Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.
01:45:27: Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
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01:46:12: that's liyfc .org O hail the power of Jesus' name
01:46:28: This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:46:34: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support
01:46:40: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
01:46:56: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
01:47:02: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:47:16: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:47:26: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org that's gracechurchatfranklin .org
01:47:33: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign
01:47:40: Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.
01:48:15: Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:48:25: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit lindbrookbaptist .org
01:48:34: that's lindbrookbaptist .org Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.
01:48:43: Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.
01:48:49: I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:48:59: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
01:49:07: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised
01:49:14: Chris up for just such a time. Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the Body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:49:24: I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:49:29: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:49:38: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at www .ironsharpensironradio
01:49:44: .com where you can click support. That's www .ironsharpensironradio .com
01:50:02: As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:50:09: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:50:18: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:50:27: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:50:33: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
01:50:38: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
01:50:52: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at www .gcbcnj .squarespace
01:51:01: .com That's www .gcbcnj .squarespace .com
01:51:08: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654
01:51:13: That's 908 -996 -7654 Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:51:41: Attention all men in ministry leadership. You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon Thursday, September 22nd 11 a .m.
01:51:53: to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania featuring me,
01:51:58: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the
01:52:13: United States and the United Kingdom personally selected by Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:52:20: So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership, please register for the
01:52:27: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002 631 -291 -7002 or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com
01:52:45: ironsharpensironradio .com This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you Thursday, September 22nd 11 a .m.
01:52:53: to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon.
01:53:07: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and we are continuing our discussion with David Lawrence, a former
01:53:17: Church of Christ minister and university professor who has come to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace and we have some questions from some listeners.
01:53:29: First of all, we have a listener. Again, I usually don't give a full name for a listener, especially when that listener happens to be a pastor in a solid church that I am very eager to promote.
01:53:44: I will give his first name. His name is Pastor Gary George, pastor of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts, and he says, could your guest explain his journey from an errant position on baptism that he had with the
01:54:01: Church of Christ to the one he has come to now? Well, I'm assuming a lot of that was just inseparably linked to your discovery and embracing of Reformed theology, right?
01:54:12: Yes, of course, and understanding what justification is, understanding that we are justified when we trust in Christ and not by something we do, and baptism is still something we do, and understanding the role of sacraments as sign and seal of salvation.
01:54:31: Well, thank you, Gary, and Gary's website for Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts is
01:54:37: SovereignGraceMA for Massachusetts .org, SovereignGraceMA standing for Massachusetts .org.
01:54:45: We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks,
01:54:51: I know that some, if not most, churches of Christ have a Pelagian view of the nature of man, that he is born without any kind of remnant of the sin of Adam.
01:55:03: I do know that some disagree with that, even in the conservative Church of Christ, due to what they say on their own websites and church pamphlets and bulletins that seem to agree with the historic
01:55:18: Biblical and Protestant view that man does indeed inherit the sin nature of Adam.
01:55:24: How dominant is the Pelagian view to your knowledge? My knowledge, it is very dominant.
01:55:31: It's pervasive. I think, generally, people would subscribe to a
01:55:36: Pelagian view in reference to sin. And most would not acknowledge, most of them wouldn't use the term, though,
01:55:43: Pelagian. No, they wouldn't use the term, but they're using what Pelagius believed. And the idea that everything that God requires is possible by man's own strength.
01:55:57: So it's very Pelagian. We have Grady, a very faithful listener to this show and financial supporter in Asheboro, North Carolina.
01:56:08: Greetings, brothers. Years ago, I had several conversations with a man that was a member of the Disciples of Christ.
01:56:14: I don't remember his explanation about the thief on the cross and his not being baptized, but our
01:56:19: Lord told him that he would be with him in Paradise. What is the explanation about those that are saved by our
01:56:26: Lord Jesus Christ before baptism and death occur? Well, Jesus said to the thief, you'll be with me in Paradise.
01:56:39: The point is, he has the power to do that. I don't understand. The question is, the
01:56:44: Church of Christ is going to say he wouldn't be saved because he wasn't baptized. Of course, that's ridiculous. So what is that common answer?
01:56:53: They obviously know that the thief on the cross is going to be in Paradise because Christ told him that.
01:56:59: But why? I've heard that he may have been baptized, it's just not recorded. That is an answer that I've heard.
01:57:06: I haven't heard a lot of people just addressing it, but I knew one prominent preacher who said he was baptized because John the
01:57:15: Baptist baptized everybody and so the thief would have been one of the people baptized.
01:57:21: Of course, you didn't know that at all. But I think it becomes difficult to twist the situation to where one cannot be saved other than by baptism.
01:57:36: You have great difficulty with that. In fact, I'd like to have you come back if you wouldn't mind to do part two of this discussion at some point in the very near future, and I'll let you think about that because we're out of time.
01:57:47: I would be delighted to. Great. And I want to let our listeners know, especially those in the Church of Christ, you might find some things interesting on my website.
01:57:55: I actually agree with exclusive a cappella worship, although I am not sectarian about it, and I definitely don't view it as a salvific issue, and the church where I am a member does not agree with that.
01:58:08: But I did a three -part interview with a Reformed Baptist named John Price who believes in exclusive a cappella worship, and you could look up those interviews, part one, two, and three.
01:58:22: John is the author of Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments in the
01:58:29: Worship of God, a theological, historical, and psychological study, and he is an advocate of strictly a cappella worship, and he's not an exclusive psalmist as many
01:58:38: Reformed people in that category are. He believes in singing extra -canonical hymns in the worship service.
01:58:46: But you might find those interesting held on September 7th,
01:58:53: December 5th, and December 12th of 2017 with John Price. And also, as I said earlier,
01:59:01: I interviewed Kelly Carter, minister of the Calgary Church of Christ in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, on his book
01:59:08: The Trinity and the Stone Campbell Movement. I want to thank you so much for being such an exquisite guest today,
01:59:16: Brother Lawrence, and I want our listeners to know, again, the website for your church is stephensvalley .church,
01:59:23: stephensvalley .church, that's Stephens Valley Church in Nashville, Tennessee. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater