July 18, 2022 Show with Dr. David Lawrence on “Discovering Sovereign Grace While in the Church of Christ’s Halls of Academia”

The Program Opens and the Host Introduces the Theme

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity Living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 18th day of July 2022.

Why the Host Values Church of Christ Backgrounds and Introduces Dr. David Lawrence

Some of you may have heard me in the beginning of a recent interview announced that the Church of Christ Also known as the rest or mate restoration movement Had a large role to play in me beginning to search and study and fall in love with the scriptures when I was a young man starting in my teenage years and lasting through my early 20s I was raised Roman Catholic and Had come to distrust that religious system and By the time I was 15 years old had ceased regularly attending a Roman Catholic Church.

My brother Bob my senior in five years. He began to attend The Bethpage Church of Christ in Nassau County, Long Island, New York. He made a profession of being a born-again Christian and began to evangelize me very frequently and heavily and I began attending that congregation as a visitor for quite a number of years although never Being baptized in that congregation and nor becoming a permanent member there I eventually got saved in a Reformed Baptist Church but I still feel a great measure of indebtedness to The Church of Christ and specific individuals.

I know from that that movement that led me to for the first time in my life open up the scriptures and begin to study them and Therefore because of that I love to hear stories about those who have Come to further truth from that background and Today is a guest who is going to be doing just that.

Telling us his story about his Discoveries theologically while in the Church of Christ today we have as our guests for the very first time dr. David Lawrence a former minister at Milton Avenue Church of Christ in Truman, Arkansas former minister at Smith Springs Church of Christ in Nashville, Tennessee Former professor of history at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee and Currently the scholar in residence at Stevens Valley Church of Nashville, Tennessee.

We're going to be discovering we're going to be addressing discovering sovereign grace While in the Church of Christ's halls of academia the theological journey of a professor in a prominent Church of Christ University and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever the iron sharpens iron radio dr.

David Lawrence, I did not have a yes, and of course I was unlike you.

I was not a minister and in the Church of Christ nor a professor in a prominent college from that background I was basically an outsider frequently visiting and Becoming more and more intrigued and fascinated by the Holy Scriptures by doing so.

Stevens Valley Church and Confessional Identity

Well first of all tell our listeners about Stevens Valley Church of Christ and am I pronouncing it correctly because I don't know if it's okay. Is it couldn't someone could someone could because of the spelling pronounce it Steffens?

And so don't tell us about that church. PCA growing community.

And is your congregation a confessional church or sometimes churches may love? Appreciate the confession and use elements from it. Whether it be the Westminster standards or the 1689 London Baptist confession or the three forms of unity.

So what is is it a strict confessional adherence or more? Yes.

Primarily the word catechism those two. But yes, we follow the teaching will be always be in accord with the Westminster standards.

Great. And if anybody has any further information that they'd like to learn about this congregation go to Stevens Valley Church and Stevens is spelled steph ens Valley Church and God willing we'll be repeating that information Later on in the program.

David Lawrence's Salvation Testimony and Early Religious Background

Well as we have a custom to do here David an iron sharpens iron radio. Whenever we air a first-time Guest we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony including The religious atmosphere in which they were raised if any and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord Raised up in their lives and drew them to himself and saved them and that would include you.

So I'd love to hear your story. My dad had a family same movement a branch. I was a believer, but not committed. I just I have belief in God. I did pray every day. But they would like to see me go but in fact my mother my mother's family who went to church went there and one one of mother's brothers went to a Methodist Church and I just couldn't get interested now.

They did get invited to a Baptist Church in our neighborhood By some of our neighbors and we did go for a while. Harris didn't like it so well, I thought the pastor talked too much about money, so that didn't work out and By the time I got to school today.

She taught Sunday school there as well as teaching I was and I had no intention of coming Friday before we left and then on Monday, she would say David I didn't see you In class or in Sunday school did for me.

He promised I can't back down. I got up part of my bed, and I shared I think it was a 1942 Chevrolet. I was headed towards South Street Christian, and I continued to go and Then my family started coming and we were all baptized on the same day.

One year there Wow now just I didn't know this person to just for sake of clarification brother.

The Church of Christ, Denominational Identity, and Internal Divisions

Because I know that a lot of a Church of Christ listeners may be getting upset for being Affiliated with disciples of Christ when you were attending that church. Was it is was it as? Liberal as it is today.

I mean today you have even homosexuality being endorsed And welcomed and all kinds of very left-leaning Things that one might put under the umbrella of apostasy, so. How what was the the nature of the disciples of Christ back then when or at least that congregation that you were in back?

Yes, it's not there yet, and I would so I'd say it's right in the middle. We had probably I think it today has just gone on and continued until they are typical posture. But there were a lot of discussions back there.

We're just beginning to learn about his opinion. I would say he reached the point of being my best friend knowledge as well, and we kept it goes away a few years ago this particular church in Springfield was probably the most conservative that they in the mainline Church of Christ.

They would call them aunties they Had a doctrine called against institutionalism Non-institutional and they meant by that they did not believe in supporting orphan homes. They did not believe in having churches collectively support a missionary.

They didn't have dinners in the building and so very very strict now that kind of division in the Church of Christ was just underway at the time that Gives a dialogue with my friend and I talked he would point out and say now David You don't have biblical authority for this for instance instrumental music you need to have biblical authority for everything and he often would Ridicule my belief at as a member of the Christian Church, not not rudely.

But he I felt it. I felt that he was highly critical of the Christian Church. So for a while I was on the fence and then I decided also I'll just go for it to the Church of Christ at the time I was preached near Springfield Spartan, Missouri and Doing fine with that, but of course I had to leave that and When I left the Christian Church There were many people disappointed Theology or the school of religion at the college.

I was attending which is very college. So a lot of people disappointed with me and a lot of people in the Church of Christ very happy with me. So I started attending. It was the South Side Church of Christ in Springfield, Missouri and Soon my parents who had begun at the Christian Church.

They followed me to the Christian Church. Then they followed me To the Church of Christ and also my sister. So there were four of us then who were in this congregation I will say Congregation on the whole we had made we made good friends close friends.

They were very supportive of me. That was a situation which was in Charleston, Arkansas. Right after we got married and three years there that I moved to Truman as you mentioned that earlier Truman, Arkansas.

After three years there and I will say this before I leave Truman. That was probably the most Christlike Congregation of any of them Christ in their lives. I will say that in Truman and he had a lot of health issues.

He made the decision that I need to go somewhere else opportunity to go to win the evil of it. He thought about that but the people I'd met were reasonable people for the people in this congregation. Not so it was it was just startling the degree of suspicion and hatred.

And the way that put everybody to the test when I began to doubt legalism. I didn't doubt the Church of Christ yet. So after being there ten years and we should have left earlier We made a decision to go to a what I call a mainline Church of Christ and Spent ten years there and I was a pleasant experience.

I worked with a gentleman who was the lead pastor there. And we had a very good relationship 1986 from University now Nashville 1986 take this position in the history department at Lipscomb and I remained there for 25 years.

Church of Christ Vocabulary, Restorationism, and the Problem of Sectarianism

Wow, and by the way when you refer to.

The one of the leaders at a church where you were very happy to belong to. You use the word lead pastor. Was that a phrase that they used. Because no, I didn't think so because most of the churches in fact every Church of Christ that I'm aware of would either call the.

What we would call a pastor they would either call them the minister or the evangelist.

Right of your audience would use that I'm sure. Why do you bring that up. And he wrote a educated man done a lot of thinking on Church of Christ and He commented to me one day said, you know, David we meaning Church of Christ we have our own vocabulary and That is true that is used to be different.

They do not want to be recognized as Just another denomination. They don't even claim to be a denomination is that we are the one true church. So we don't talk about revivals that talked about gospel meetings, for instance, you don't talk about a sanctuary you talk about an auditorium and So forth.

You don't talk about a sermon. Oh, really? I wasn't aware of the last one. They don't call them sermons.

Oh, wow, somehow somehow that escaped me when I all the times that I've been.

Now they might I'm just saying in my experience. It was always lessons. You preach a lesson if I begin to use terms that were in community generally.

Maybe it'd be a good idea for us to even explain to our listeners who are unfamiliar with this movement. They may have driven past a church that says Church of Christ on the The building typically small C for Church capital C for Christ.

That doesn't even necessarily mean the church is attached to the 19th century restoration movement, but. But they may have seen these churches heard about people in them. One of the most famous that at one time was a Minister in that movement was Max Lucado.

He no longer associates with the Church of Christ. And in fact, I I know Max personally. I haven't spoken with him in years and was at one point very happy to see the progression in his development of Theological issues, but then I thought that he definitely went way too far to the left in certain areas very important areas.

I'm sorry. Well, it's often the case because to grace, but they don't they would understand it more as just being Nice and what I think is more biblical. But to give more details about the background, this was a movement that began in the 19th century.

Started by Thomas Campbell and his son Alexander and then they became affiliated with Barton stone and I just had a fascinating interview recently with a Brother who is still a minister in the Church of Truth in the Church of Christ in Calgary, Alberta Ontario Canada Kelly Carter and We discussed his book the Trinity in the stone Campbell movement Recovering the heart of Christian faith.

He's a very strong Trinitarian and believes in the historical biblical classical understanding of the Trinity and Believes that is an area Sorely lacking in the restoration movement because for some reason Back in the 19th century and you could correct me if you disagree with anything I'm saying Thomas and Alexander Campbell were strong Trinitarians, although being so did not like using the term because the term Trinity wasn't in the Bible and And for some reason that I can't comprehend.

They chose nonetheless to have an ecumenical relationship with Barton W stone and The churches that sprang up as a vault as a result of his revival meetings even though Barton stone was Very anti-trinitarian.

And to this day The Church of Christ they have always believed themselves to be a church seeking unity and These these things that they unify over are a Relatively small handful of things that they are militant about Typically And even some things that you and I might agree with I know that I agree with the more conservative churches of Christ and their exclusive male headship.

I Agree in their belief in each church being Independent on autonomous having no hierarchical structure outside the elders of that congregation and have no having no higher authority Outside that congregation other than Jesus Christ in the scriptures of themselves Non-denominational and There are a number of things that you and I would agree with Since you're a pedo-baptist you would disagree with Their insistence upon immersion as I would but not for the remission of sins As being required for the remission of sins.

But but it seems that outside of those things which Very often they are militant to the point of excluding Everyone that doesn't follow in lockstep with them over that relatively small number of things.

You know to the point of they don't recognize many of them and I have to keep reminding my audience I'm not saying every congregation and perhaps even today that might not even be the majority view but over the years they believed if you are Obedient to this small handful of beliefs Believing that you could lose your salvation.

And in fact the many of the folks that I met and befriended in my days of searching were so militant about Strictly a cappella worship that was actually a salvific issue. If you had if you had a piano in your church that was a sign that church is damned.

But but but but in spite of that Unity that all these churches have had over those issues that to my knowledge ever since the inception of the Church of Christ there has been in vital in fighting and battles going on everywhere from friendly disagreement to harsh disfellowship and so on over other issues that are not involved in those main core areas and you even mentioned about the Non-institutional groups and I mentioned this the last time I was speaking about the Church of Christ with Kelly Carter I know of a church in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania About 40 minutes from where I'm sitting.

That disfellowshipped the local Church of Christ here in Carlisle because they have a kitchen in their building and to me that Yeah, and to me that's Lunacy, I mean because because if they have a bathroom in their building, I don't know how they justify that but you know, maybe they should have an outhouse or something, but It's just bizarre when you get to that point and of course there are others that insist on only using one cup in The Lord's Supper.

I have even heard that there are some that I don't even know if they exist anymore. But there were some that insisted that you have the Lord's Supper in an upper room.

Yes, and going back to at unity as its purpose of Take the stone and camel was let's get together and just be united and just be Christian.

Yeah, they used to have a slogan in which they probably still do. We're not the only Christians, but we are Christians only. Yes, and and that that that motto was not really followed because they've actually many and at one time perhaps Most believe they were the only Christians.

Didn't start with that intention that. Well, we are. The is right that we with the idea of being and they use the term Denominational. If you belong to any other church, you are denominational. That's an interesting adjective to be saying.

The body is thing, right?

The Church of Christ, Sovereign Grace, and the Need for Listener Questions

We have to go to our first break if you have a question for David Lawrence about the Church of Christ about his particular journey in Discovering the doctrines of Sovereign Grace while in the Church of Christ while not only being a minister But being a professor in a prominent Church of Christ University.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in a Church of Christ and you want to ask a question about something that Would make you feel uncomfortable if others knew your identity. Something like that. Maybe you're even a minister in the Church of Christ and you have this similar kind of question.

We understand we will allow you to remain anonymous, but if you're asking a General question we ask of you to please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the entire two-hour program is David Lawrence a former Church of Christ minister and former professor at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee One of their most prominent Universities in the Church of Christ and we are discussing today our guests discovery of Sovereign Grace While in the Church of Christ's halls of academia the theological journey of a professor in a prominent Church of Christ University.

If you have a question, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris ar n z e n at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence and We we have a A listener Who is not asking a question, but he wants to give you a word of encouragement his name.

We usually don't give full names. But since this person is a friend of yours, I will let you know. His name is Tim Alexander and he's and he said served with dr Lawrence for years at Smith Springs have been immensely blessed by his example friendship and pastoral guidance.

God bless you richly. Yeah, and I'm good and just to recap where we were when we left off before the break I was saying That's that it's an anomaly that the Church of Christ Was formed known as the restoration movement in the 19th century starting with Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Then later Barton W stone and and although there were a core number of beliefs and a comparatively small number of beliefs Which they rigidly insisted you must believe To be a Christian at least that's what later became the mindset.

There were a lot of other things that say that the group began disagreeing over in house and that went from Being friendly in house collegiate disagreements to very severe sharp nasty and hateful divisions.

And it always it baffles me that they would be more concerned over certain beliefs like the necessity of being immersed in water for the remission of sins and acapella worship. That those would become more vastly more important than the nature of God himself going back to our discussion that.

Belief in the Trinity seemed to be an optional thing at one month and yet I have met people. It certainly wasn't taught in you that they majored in minors following exam become law. That is salvation in the Bible even when I can remember.

Some of those dear friends and even my brother who seemed to be determined to drag me into a Pool of water large enough for me to be immersed in it They seem to have little concern about what I understood about God about who God is.

And so when you were saying that everything is important it didn't seem that that was important.

They are concerned. Yes, you're not baptized. Be re-baptized. But to go beyond that and interestingly enough.

I heard that Alexander Campbell who was baptized by a Baptist minister was never re-baptized. I.

Think that's correction. He believed The doctrines of the Bible. He came from a reformed background. He came to divisions Involved it devolved into as you mentioned Chris quite correctly Squabbles and the squabbles seem to be increasingly objects Nation of the Bible which most of them still make some are beginning to back away from it but most of them make is one of the strong points.

And Those of us and there are a large number of us that I know certainly in the Nashville area who have come out of the church Christ background regard to the inspiration of the Bible and.

How Sovereign Grace and Assurance Entered His Life

So now bring us to the point a very important point of the story when you first began to hear about the doctrines of sovereign grace. Also nicknamed reform theology and also nicknamed Calvinism. Although not all the adherence to that system of thought bear those titles at the same time.

We we know what we're talking about here when we're talking about the doctrines of God's sovereignty his control over all things including salvation. But if you could. Where did that I?

Was thinking Chris happened in my life and this is true of everyone. You look back on it at this point and say there were. No, this was all Shape my understanding you. I think you mentioned a moment ago about this Doctrine that saved.

Always say I came a member of the Church of Christ. I saw that it was my responsibility to try to convert everybody around me and the people in my family. I've certainly made myself obnoxious to a number of them.

To your salvation and that just stuck in my salvation and be done. I would mention a college preparatory school. At that time in studies department for a while used to bring in.

Wow, and if you could pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to the midway break. Okay, and I'm excited to hear about this. RC Sproul is a very prominent hero in my life. But if anybody would like to Send in a question We have some people waiting to have their questions asked and if you'd like to join them Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. Please be patient with us because this is the midway break that is longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida 90 .1 FM they require of us a longer break because the FCC requires Them to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize Iron sharpens iron radio geographically to Lake City, Florida.

While they do that we air our globally heard commercials. So please be patient with us and we'll be right back right after these messages with more of David Lawrence.

The Midway Break and Sponsor Messages

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I'm dr. Joseph Piper.

President emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the Westminster standards should have and use the eight-volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster larger catechism titled Authentic Christianity by dr. Joseph more craft.

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Theological seminary sent you. When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

This is Gerald Bernard Harrison co-host of the just thinking podcast and the NASB is my Bible of choice.