July 13, 2020 Show with Gary L Scott & Zach Maxcey

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

13th day of July 2020.

And I'm delighted to have on two men who I have had the privilege of sharing

a good deal of time of fellowship with, especially in

Franklin, Tennessee, not so long ago for a recent conference where I

served as the moderator for the audience Q &A.

But one of these gentlemen I've known for many years going back to the early

1990s when he was still pastoring in South Carolina.

But let me introduce these two dear brothers to you.

First of all, we have Gary Scott.

He is the brother that I mentioned that years ago was pastoring at Three Rivers Baptist

Church in South Carolina, and I had the privilege

of meeting him first by phone, and then later on

at the John Bunyan Conference in Pennsylvania.

And he also introduced me to a brother that became, and still is,

a very dear friend that I have been delighted to call a dear friend for

decades.

Ed Moore is former youth pastor at Three Rivers Baptist Church in Columbia, South

Carolina.

And today, Gary is working with the Providence

Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, and he is also founder of Cross Theater.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio, Brother Gary Scott.

Thank you, Cross.

It is great to be here today.

I look forward to hearing about New Covenant Theology, and particularly how

Cross will

integrate that.

Great.

And my other guest today is Zach Maxey, and he

is intricately involved in the Providence Theological Institute of New

Covenant Theology, and was delighted that he was the brother that invited me down

to Franklin, Tennessee, to participate in, I believe it was a year ago, they

hosted the John Bunyan Conference, which they did in honor of the late

John Riesinger, who has been known for decades as a primary

figure in the New Covenant Theology movement,

which began in the mid -20th century and

sort of split away from the Covenant Theology movement, which was also

a revival movement in the mid -20th century of Calvinistic

Baptists, a resurgence, if you will, of Calvinistic Baptists.

And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, I think this is the first time Zach has ever been on the program, but

it's a great pleasure to have you finally on Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio, Zach Maxey.

Thank you for having me, Brother Chris.

It is also a delight to be here.

Was I correct in that.

Guess that this is the first time you're on?

Yes.

Great, and what would be your title there at Providence Theological Institute?

I am...

Great, and today we are not taking listener calls, I just wanted to let,

or listener emails, I should say.

I sometimes think that I'm running the old show out of New York when we took

phone calls from listeners.

Today we take emails from listeners who have questions, but today we are not doing that,

so I just thought I'd let you know that up front, so you don't bother writing down a lot of questions

if you intended to do so.

But, well, let me start with you with some basic questions to start the show going

today.

Zach, what is Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology?

Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, or PTINCT.

We're a Christian organization...

Yes, well, I'm delighted that I have always maintained close

friendships and relationships with brethren from the New Covenant Theology movement

going back to the late 1980s, largely through Don

Blend, the late Don Blend, who was my late wife's pastor

at First Baptist Church of Lindenhurst, Long Island, for many years, and Don is now

in eternal glory with Christ, but Don was the first

individual, having come from, after my conversion, that is,

having been raised Roman Catholic, uh, every church where I've actually been an

official member after my salvation, has been a covenant theology or

confessional reform Baptist church, and so Don was the first

who explained to me, as a representative himself, what New

Covenant Theology is, and invited me to the John Bunyan conferences, which at

one time was their annual conference in Pennsylvania, and I attended for quite a number of years

with Don and some other folks from First Baptist and Lindenhurst, and have grown to

love many of these dear brothers.

Well, let me also start here, since this is

obviously a crucial part of the story that we're discussing, uh, Gary, can you tell us, what is Cross

Theater?

Yes,

at

the

Diamond

Arena,

we have become

a theater of the

gospel, we recognize

that

the

Spirit

of God is the one

playing out, and it's simple, uh,

it's

going to end as a

tragedy, it's going

to end

in defeat,

and

ultimately

the coming

very Son of God comes, goes back to

heaven, and

believers

gather

together

as

churches,

ultimately consummation is

ongoing, and what we're

trying

to accomplish.

In Cross Theater.

And in practical terms, uh, how do you conduct

Cross Theater?

I'm assuming that you accept invitations and travel to various churches, and perhaps even

schools, or other.

Institutions, and you speak, and you give a demonstration, and so forth?

Yes, we'd like to do

that,

uh, to

the

gospel,

is where

we

have

opportunity,

you

know, most

of, a lot

happening recently in

terms of this

cultural

Marxism, and

that it doesn't

tickle ways, uh,

it's,

it's not academic, it's not

abstract, eyebrow

thing,

that

they belong to.

And I

assume,

since the themes.

Transcend, uh, New Covenant theology alone, that this would be something that you would be

very comfortable accepting an invitation to a Covenant theology, Reformed Baptist

church, or.

Other evangelical

church, perhaps even

an

Arminian

church?

Yes, except theology

is something else,

somebody else's

consummation,

and so it is

designed to have a

broad...

And just to clarify,

so

our.

Listeners don't have the wrong idea, uh, they should not be expecting to see theatrical performances,.

Or

anything

like

that,

when they

attend...

No, this

is

Second

World

War, real

doctor's life,

where

the

problem

with,

uh, you

know, God

is the

play

on the plan

of God, years

now,

and talk

about

theater.

Great, and I

know that

this is a work in progress, as far as the website is concerned,.

But this, uh, archived recording of this program, this interview,

uh, God willing, will be around for many years to come, so the website is crosstheater,

and they spell it the fancy way,.

R -E at the end, not E -R, crosstheater .org.

And do you know, Chris, many people don't understand

this,

some

people

are

talking about a drama,

tell

them

about

a God who

loves, a

God,

it just...

Can I take just a moment to kind of tell you how I got here, Chris?

Yeah, definitely.

...and

Pennsylvania

setting,

I

work

a

redemptive approach

to

the Bible, I look

much more

nuanced...

You

mentioned

Gary

Long,

uh, I,

still

to this

day,

probably

for.

The last, I don't know, close to 30 years, I guess, have been giving out

his superb little book on definite atonement, which I think is an excellent treatment

of that subject.

Yes.

And, uh, when we come back from our first break, we're going to have Zach Maxey

explain what New Covenant theology is, and, uh, I'm looking forward to

hearing that, even though I already have heard, uh, many times, but I can never, uh, be

told, uh, too often by different people, from different perspectives, perhaps, uh,

more about this theological wing of the Church, uh, especially, uh, since

I maintain so many close friendships in it.

Uh, but, uh, we're going to be right back after these words from our sponsors, so please do

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in,.

Our two guests today for the entire program are Zach Maxey, who is president of

Providence Theological Institute, and we also have joining us Gary L.

Scott, who is an evangelist and a former pastor and

also the founder of Cross Theater.

And we have come to a point where we wanted to get a definition from Zach

Maxey on New Covenant Theology.

As I said at the outset of the program, I have had close friendships

both in New Covenant Theology and in Covenant Theology since all my life as a

born -again believer, after having left the Roman Catholic Church by the mercy of God.

I have always been a member of a Reformed, confessional, Covenantal Baptist Church.

But since my wife, my late wife's church was a New Covenant

Theology church, I have always maintained close friendships with folks from

New Covenant Theology.

And I can say, to be honest, that it's been a shame and

something that is a source of sadness to me that more people in both of these

camps could not get along with each other as I have been able to do for decades now.

But as I was saying earlier, there was a resurgence

of Calvinistic Baptists in the mid -20th century.

And men that worked side by side, were very close friends, and

one might even say colleagues in ministry, reached a point where they started to drift apart.

And the differences between New Covenant Theology and Covenant Theology were a primary

cause of this.

And it even happened with two dear brothers, John and Ernie

Reisinger.

In fact, Ernie Reisinger is the founder of the church where I am currently

a member.

After having moved from New York to Pennsylvania, I have been a member of Grace Baptist

Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which was founded in the late 1950s by Ernie Reisinger.

But, Zach, if you could tell us exactly what New Covenant Theology is, and then

you could tell us how similar it is.

To Covenant Theology and where

the differences are as well.

Covenant

Theology began

with

PTS, used to

be the

name of PTS.

Theology or NCT is a

theological system,

singular

plan.

The second main

element

that

is

a

primary

difference, probably

the

primary

difference between NCT and Covenant, New Covenant is

not viewed by an

administration, is

that

Theology,

1689 federalism,

the pain

to see that

in the

essentials, unity, in

the non -essentials,

to be able to lock arms,

and then when

we agree

on the essentials, we should be able to juggle with one another in Christian love.

And one of the messages from Bunyan

Conference, due to all the things happening with

Covenant Theology, and

Theology defined in

the message so much of

New Covenant

Theology that I personally know are coming more

out of

the Reformed

Camp.

We're

always reforming, we're trying to refine our understanding through the

fundamental tenet, we

agree on

the inspiration.

And there's even partial theology

in New

Covenant Theology,

hermeneutics,

and

how I

gave them essentially what New Covenant Theology called in

Greek, and so Christ

is the end or the goal,

and things

serving it in a Christ -glorifying manner.

And that the Word of God,

he's fond

of saying that the Bible is a hymn book,

and there's

a lot of agreement with that there are some

differences.

Some of the other common Covenant Theology, both

there's one plan of God centered in Jesus Christ, you

have creation, God the Son executing it, God the Holy Spirit applying it.

Covenant Theology

would

differ with saying that it's primarily just speaking of a plan of God, because the word

covenant is not used there, but there's still agreement there that there's one plan of God.

It

came

into being at

Pentecost as more of

an effulgence, so there

would be a difference there.

There are

also some who view

the Law of Moses into moral ceremony,

that it should not be divided along

them.

NCT would

view

the Law as a

union, NCT would

view it as the

Law of 1689 reformed.

There's a large amount of similarity and commonality there.

Also,

in the view that there's two

differences, NCT

would

agree

much more than we

disagree.

Yes, I have

always

found.

That to be the case.

And just to clarify, lest some of our listeners hearing you for the first time,

or hearing about New Covenant Theology for the first time, develop a misunderstanding,

you are not antinomian, and the Decalogue, or the Ten

Commandments, even though that, in the view of New Covenant theologians, was

specifically and solely intended for Israel, Jesus Christ's Law

in the New Covenant includes nine of those Ten Commandments, am I right?

That is correct,.

Antinomian by

some, and

speaking of one under the Law of

Moses, so that he might win, Jesus was

not under the Law, he

became like

one not under the

Law, though he is enamos.

And this is a question

many others

who

deny of those the New

Covenant Law of Christ,

a degree that no one can possibly keep,

let alone even, it's also

the commands and the teaching

and the example of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, it's also

the teachings, commands, and example of the Apostle.

In fact, we have to let you pick up where you left off when we return, this is our midway break that we're going into,

and when we come back we'll also have Gary Scott chime in, but folks, please be patient with us

because in the middle of the show, Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City,

Florida, who airs this program twice daily in a pre -recorded format, in morning drive and then

in the evening, they require of us a longer break in the middle because they,

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Before we return to Zach Maxey and Gary Scott, we just have

a couple of very important announcements to make.

First of all, I hope that you all tune in

to a program that is coming up later this month in July

that I think that you will all be blessed by.

We've got Tony Costa, who was a speaker at the most

recent John Bunyan conference, which was hosted by my guests

on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio today.

Tony Costa is going to be speaking about a very relevant and important subject, cultural

Marxism.

He is a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on this theme, and I have heard him speak on

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In fact, that was the theme the last time Dr. Costa was my luncheon

speaker at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon that I hold twice a year here in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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That's also the email address where you can send in, actually we're not taking questions today, that was a force of

habit, but we are now back with our discussion with Zach Maxey,

president of Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, and Gary Scott,

an itinerant evangelist and founder of Cross Theater, who is also

very much involved with the Providence Theological Institute.

And Zach, I don't know if you had completed what you were saying when you were comparing

before the break, you were showing some of the differences and similarities that New Covenant

Theology has, both with Covenant Theology and with Dispensational Theology.

Yeah, well, Covenant

Theology's view

within

New Covenant

Theology, nine of

the...

Somebody disciplining a child in the background, what is that noise?

You hear that smacking noise?

Anyway...

I heard that, that's not on my end.

Okay, all right.

I'm sorry I interrupted you, continue.

Oh, no problem.

What might win them to

the gospel, though I am not without the law of God, I am under the law of

Christ.

He typically defines that, and this is an ongoing discussion and question even in

NCT circles, greatest commandments, so love of God and love of neighbor,

of which the nine of the ten commandments that are in the New Testament,

and that it's Christ, the commands and teachings of the apostles in the New

Testament in light of Christ, so NCT

is not a bunch of Marcionites.

Gary Scott,

what are

some of

the key distinctives of New Covenant Theology.

That perhaps Zach didn't have time to mention in his presentation?

Well, maybe it will help if I follow kind of my own personal

experience early on in the in the 80s

and

the

90s, in

some

sense

the

doctrine,

I'm

going

to

do

something

is abiding

more change of

the

law, that

gives of the law,

whether it's

1889 federal laws, and I was

taught

that

in

Bible

college, so it's that, but

that was and it

wasn't, it went back

to the promise made to Abraham of

the land,

Old and

Make,

Garden

of

Eden,

to

new

dialogues,

the

promise of the

land, but

with the promise

of the seed,

different

way that the

dispensation define

that,

New

Covenant

Theology,

kind of redemption, talk about

harboring

together,

that a

covenant, covenant

made with

backbone,

it's

a beginning

of

unity,

we want to

fall

foundation, focus

on this,.

Yes, I

am

thankful

that

the

church where I was saved, back in the mid 1980s,.

Which was then Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, later to merge

with First Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island, and become Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long

Island in Merrick, that church, although a

confessional 1689 Covenantal Reform Baptist Church, always

allowed into the pulpit for conferences and special invitations and so on,

some of the men from the New Covenant Theology position, I remember the

times that I really enjoyed our dear brother Tom Wells preaching from the pulpit

of the church where I was a member in New York, and also

to see Tony Costa there, and a number of

the brethren that represent New Covenant Theology, and so it's

just been a part of the reason why I've always maintained close friendships,

and I know that there's some of the names that are slipping from my.

Mind right now, but I know that there were other brethren as well.

Well, I heard about the guy that was on the Brooklyn Bridge, and he

was going to jump, and there was a Christian down below that was trying to

come up, and you know, they got

conformed or unreformed,

read on, and then he said, what version of the Bible do you read?

And he said King James, and he pushed him off and said, die, heretic.

So the point is, we can agree on so much of

that, on one of these texts,

that's not a simple thing to answer, and that's why we need time to

dialogue and look at, but

look

at the

text,

be thankful for what exists,

and then

I had the opportunity,

I would do five or six messages a week, so it gave me a lot

of support

because

I

would

text

them

together.

And I

just.

Remembered one of the other brothers who I have not heard from or about in

decades, but one of the New Covenant theology folks who had been

invited, at least on a couple of occasions, to preach at the church where I was a member

of the 1689 Covenantal Reform Baptist Church was Tom Smith

of Randall Street Baptist Church in West Virginia.

I don't know if any of you folks have ever heard from him lately, I have no idea where he is.

He used to be in Charleston, West Virginia.

Charleston is now a

pre -Anglican church.

I'm hoping at least it's a conservative Anglican church.

I don't, I haven't had contact with him personally for many years, but I know that

that's where he is now.

Because I do have some very different setting.

Yeah, I do have some.

Very close friends who are strong Calvinistic Anglican pastors and

scholars, believe in the 39 articles of religion and so on.

Now, some of the listeners might not know that some of the

more prominent members of the New Covenant theology camp

include D .A. Carson and Douglas Moo, and of

course Fred Zaspel has become a very prolific writer.

Anybody else that you care.

To mention?

I'm sorry?

I would include Blake White in there.

Okay.

I would also include in that

Steve

Wellum

and Peter Dink.

Significant.

Yes, I've very much enjoyed getting to know those two.

Brothers, the Wellums, and I've only interviewed Steve so far, but I

look forward to having them both on and enjoyed meeting them face -to -face at the John Bunyan

conference that you two men helped facilitate in Franklin, Tennessee.

And both of them are instructors for courses

that one of my pastor's mother takes in Cork,

Ireland.

She's not, don't get too nervous here, she's not entering into the pastoral ministry or anything.

She just wanted to learn more about God's Word, and she enrolled in the Munster Bible College there in Cork,

Ireland, and both of the Wellum brothers have taught there.

But we're going to be actually, as you may know, we're going to be addressing the differences between

New Covenant theology and progressive covenantalism, and we're going to do that right after our final break.

So if anybody else would like, and I keep leading into an invitation

for questions, and I keep forgetting that we're not taking questions.

So be patient as we air a few ads, the break is not going to be nearly as long as the last one,

but don't go away,.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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When will it end?

Why do disasters like this happen?

How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And if you just tuned in, our two guests have been today and will continue to be

until 6 p .m. Eastern.

Zach Maxey, the president of the,

I'm sorry, I just had it right in front of me and it disappeared, the Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology,

and Gary L. Scott, founder of Cross Theater, who is also very actively involved

in the Providence Theological Institute.

And as I mentioned before we went to the commercial break, I was going to ask

you both, and perhaps this time we could start with Zach, what is the difference between New Covenant

Theology and Progressive Covenantalism?

Um,

well

the

Vastans,

Stephen

J. Wellen and

Brent

Parker...

Now it sounds like somebody is chopping vegetables in the back.

Can somebody see if that could be brought to silence for a moment?

I don't know if you guys hear that, but there's chopping going on or something.

Anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you, Zach.

Go ahead.

Oh, no

problem.

New Covenant Theology denies a

creation covenant

of obedience,

an unnecessary...

Then another

one wouldn't

say that the believer is

under the Old

Covenant, or the Mosaic Law, but that it's still instructive

because it's something many others agree with.

And then there's some other minor distinctions, such

as there

are

elements that are in that

covenant, and

then

distinctions...

I'm

actually doubt

some of these,

really that much of it.

The overall umbrella...

Yes, and

when I was at the John Bunyan.

Conference in Franklin, Tennessee, moderating the Q &A session, I

discovered from the Wellen brothers one other distinction between

their view and New Covenant Theology.

Not that everybody in New Covenant Theology has this opinion or position, but

many people that I've met from within New Covenant Theology believe that when

we gather as a corporate body for worship, it could be Sunday, it could

be Monday, it could be Tuesday.

We could completely avoid Sunday altogether without violating any

principle of God and Scripture in the New Covenant, in the New Testament.

But the Wellen brothers believe that Sunday has a specific significance, and it is the Lord's Day.

Although they wouldn't have a Sabbatarian view, they still believe that it is the Lord's Day and

should be honored.

I don't know if you two are aware of that,.

But that seemed to come up during the Q &A session.

Yes, and I have heard that view directly,

Gene, that Christians would be able to meet on any day.

Well, one thing...

Go ahead.

May I add one comment to that?

Yes.

Well, just in personal discussion

with those who

make

that

New

Covenant

Theology talk,

this is what the Scriptures say in one sense...

Can you give a little bit more detail on some of these debates

and

controversies

in NCT?

Yeah, let

me...

Some of them are, again, we're optimistic

on the issue, we're fine,

what's the law...

Since

left New Covenant

Theology, as I understand

it, the commandment in the New Testament,

the Greatest

Commandment, the example and teaching of Christ in the light of

Jesus, exactly do

we define the imputation of

Christ?

Do we even make that distinction?

So again, those are some

of...

Those are probably the principal ones, and there are even

some...

We enjoy...

He tends to take more of a dispensational premillennial view

of the millennium, but again, this is a dispute...

And I remember him vociferously,.

I remember Fred vociferously disagreeing with

John Riesinger at one of the old Bunyan conferences, that his view was dispensational, he

was defending a historic premillennial view, and John kept describing it as

dispensational, and that was getting under Fred's skin during that that

very well -remembered Bunyan conference, just so I want to make sure that

Fred hears at least one person say that he's not a dispensationalist.

Yeah, and Chris, if I may, it's called What is New

Covenant Theology,

design,

covenant

community,

their

union with

Christ, represented

by...

Now was Blake...

We agree more than we disagree.

Was Blake the late Richard Bennett's pastor that day spring

in Texas?

No, I think you're talking about Jackson Boyette or...

Yeah, that's who I'm thinking of, I'm sorry.

You're right, you're right.

Well, Richard Bennett just happened to be a very close friend of mine who went home to be with the Lord about, I

don't our listeners have the

contact information again that they need to maintain a

knowledge of what's going on with you two.

First of all, with the

Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, that website that you

can go to is ptinct .org, that's

p -t -i -n -c -t .org.

And then, of course, Cross Theater is crosstheater .org.

And once again, theater is spelt with an r -e at the end, not an e -r.

And it's been a joy having you both on the program.

I look forward to having you both back, and perhaps we can set up a

dialogue on the show sometime between some representatives of New Covenant

Theology and Covenant Theology, or any of the other branches of

Sovereign Grace that exists within the Church today.

Does that sound like a good idea?

Well, thank you, brethren, and I want to thank everybody who listened today.

And I just want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ

is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

And I look forward to hearing from you, and your questions for our guests in the future, on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.