Dr. Nate Collins’ Presentation at Revoice 2018 Examined

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line. I'm turning the air down here because it's it's warm in Phoenix We got hit last night, but I'll tell you we sat around saying no we want to rain watch rain

Well, it decided to do that Didn't really need the 60 mile an hour winds along with it, but it it did it did rain last night

So it's monsoon in Phoenix, and so I didn't look at the radar, but we're probably safe for this afternoon

We have gotten hit a couple times during the program the lights were flickering a little bit last night So we should be able to get through the program today

Now everybody and their second cousin are doing programs this week on the subject of the conference at the

PCA Church Over the past weekend called revoice obviously it has been discussed

I Mentioned it a bit I addressed some of the issues early on But I just sort of figured once it happens, and you can listen to it then maybe

They haven't really The the workshops and things like that I don't know if they'll ever be if they were recorded if they'll be posted.

I I don't know but the Main sessions were live streamed

Someone told me that they were taken down from their website sometimes that happens.

You know sometimes you You just you post The live stuff, and then you want to edit it

You know want to cut it up and repost it and so sometimes stuff will be up, and then it'll disappear I I don't know.

I don't know if they've Chosen not to put it up or leave it up, or I don't know

But at least the main plenary sessions have been

Posted I've listened to about half of that. I would say and some of it more than once Because I Wanted to at least address the presentation made by the primary person

I When when people started quoting what Nate Collins was saying on Twitter I made a passing comment, and I expanded upon it yesterday to make sure people understood, and I'm going to expand upon it now

I Specifically mentioned on Twitter that There needs to be a clear and strong response from Southern seminary on this now there has been

Some level of response, but some people may be asking well why pick on Southern well

Sadly because we don't expect Southeastern to say anything about it And who knows who's in charge of Southwestern But the primary reason is because of Nate Collins and Nate Collins Was us you know is associated with Southern he has a

PhD from Southern seminary His His dissertation topic now remember

Nate Collins Is the young man who identifies himself as a gay man in a mixed orientation?

Marriage he's married. He has sons and A lot of us find that terminology to be extremely problematic it raises many many issues

That need to be addressed in an appropriate fashion. I let me say before I continue on here

I've seen a lot of really inappropriate stuff being said online There's there's not gonna be any of that today that may not satisfy you but That's life there is the the topic is more important than my

Proving my bona fides as some kind of trasher of bad theology or something

Need to be there needs to be some self -control I think in some of the things that are being said throughout

Social media a lot of things come to mind, but I won't go into them right now anyway Nate Collins Is a graduate

PhD graduate from Southern seminary and his dissertation topic? My understanding is that his dissertation topic was secondary gender identities in 1st

Corinthians 7 and 1st Timothy 5 and their Jewish and Greco -Roman background

I'd love to see that because I I wonder what a secondary gender identity is

And and I wonder I mean if you're familiar 1st Corinthians 7 1st

Timothy 5 that's primarily regards to single people Virgins being kept virgins by their fathers

Widows Stuff like this and I Don't know what that has to do with the modern utilization of the term gender identity

So I'm half tempted to to track that dissertation down Because University of Michigan would have it and and see what there is there, but the point is he's a

PhD graduate from Southern and Until I believe April of this year

Was associated with the seminary in some minor capacity as far as teaching

I think online classes possibly Maybe just one or two. I Don't know exactly but I have been informed that once the revoice conference became more of a focus of controversy that that he

Voluntarily Disassociate himself at least that's my understanding But there's something else

Nate Collins dad Was a dean of student life at Boyce College for quite some time.

And so it's it's not just a passing thing It's not like living nearby and hence

When you have a PhD graduate Who is making the kind of statements and Nate Collins is making

I'm just simply stating That there I think there needs to be a a strong contrast drawn and that was the only focus of what

I was saying briefly in that in that tweet and so this particular material

I The videos didn't even

And maybe that's what they're doing in fact, that's in all probability I'm just going to assume that what they're doing is the reason they've taken the main sessions down is they're editing them and They're actually gonna make them more usable because you know, there's music in between there's announcements, you know

It was the live stuff, you know And sometimes we have to do the same thing if we have problems with live feed and we got pulled

Pulled down put up a fresh copy of it and you need to clean it up and you know, whatever So let's just assume the best and That they're probably maybe putting some graphics up like who's who?

Because they didn't bother to announce Sometimes they just assumed since you're sitting there.

You've got the handout stuff. You can sort of know, you know Maybe they'll put up, you know who the speakers are a little bit more clearly and stuff like that.

I I don't know but in listening to Nate Collins, I think there is enough here

To really allow us to touch on some of the more important theological moral ethical

Concerns in regards to revoice night. I didn't talk with him about it but yesterday

My dear friend Michael Brown addressed revoice In one of the segments on his program and of course as always he did so with with graciousness and yet with a firm

Assertion that the fundamental issue is what most of us have been saying all along and that is this acceptance of the modern concept of an identity

That is not Completely Defined by scriptural parameters, but an identity

That buys into the modern perspectives of the world And hence you have gay

Christianity queer Christianity, whatever else LGBTQ Christianity being a an accepted

Parameter and if you do not accept those parameters, then you are a part of the problem.

You are one of those that are Guilty of Well dividing the body

Pushing people outside the fellowship and then you start getting all of the victim language that we've been getting for a number of years now from the

LGBTQ And again, I I don't believe there is such a thing but from the movement

I I think it's a Capitulation on our part when we use the phrase

LGBTQ community Because of the fact that that ends up Completely muddling

The categories that are represented by each one of those letters And I I just again say and especially within a

Christian context the idea of identifying a community Based upon such diverse rebellions

Against the Natural order created by God now.

We live in a fallen world. And so that natural order is constantly being broken and In every single

Heterosexual long -term married relationship that we would say is

Appropriately Within biblical parameters. You still have brokenness. You still have sin.

You still have All the the falling short that we have That's all true but there remains a major difference between Missing the mark in doing what

God has called us to do and Missing the mark in doing the exact opposite of what the natural order of the creation itself calls for there is a difference between those things and So that's why you can have

Marriage retreats Where you can give General Biblical counsel regarding the improvement of the married state and There does not have to be any connection whatsoever

Between those statements and Two men two women

You know anything along those lines there there doesn't have to be any of that Because from a biblical perspective you can properly understand that there are appropriate

Parameters That I can talk to all husbands Now every husband's be a little bit different.

I realize that but there are certain duties that are relevant and appropriate for all

Husbands right same thing with with wives and so That's one area and so we can talk about how husbands fail to do this and husbands women wives fail to do that You can't do that when we're talking about same -sex relationships

You can't do that in talking about bisexuality You can't do that in talking about transgenderism because all of these in different ways are

Fundamentally acts of rebellion when they are acted out and then

When you think about it when you talk about Homosexuality whether you're talking about male homosexuality or lesbianism

When you're talking about bisexuality and when you talk about Transgenderism each one of those represents a different Category and aspect of rebellion against the natural order of God's creation for example bisexuality is

Not the same thing as homosexuality There is a fundamental difference in this alleged

Orientation and you'll notice we we hear almost completely about homosexuality within a religious context

You don't you don't Maybe they had something there in one of the breakout sessions or something.

I don't know, but I didn't hear anything Specifically attempting to address the idea of bisexuality

In light of what was being said about the you know, God made you this way concept of homosexuality and Though a few things were said about Gender identity and and our trans brothers and sisters so on and so forth

You're you're in a completely different part of the solar system when you start trying to make some kind of an argument that there is some way to come up with a

You know some type of biblical parameter for saying when it comes to God God made you and He made you in this way, and you've decided you're not supposed to be that way.

I mean, I don't see how from a Christian perspective you can in any way identify this as anything other than either a major mental sickness and disease a

Complete disorder a something that needs to be dealt with On The same lines as people who think that their left arms don't belong in their bodies and they'll do anything

They can to get rid of that. I mean that there's something wrong with someone like that So I don't you either got to see it in that way or you've got to see it as I think it much more often is and That is a simple direct act of rebellion

Rejection of God's created order and how do you even begin to start talking about that?

Within the church. How do you start talking about someone who on the one hand says

I have submitted in repentance and faith? That's one of the issues is there's so many churches day where there is no repentance.

There is no bowing knee to lordship of Christ. I Don't know how non lordship churches

Even begin to take the first step in having a consistent Moral or ethical approach to this at all.

I just don't know how you do it. I Don't I don't think you can be done consistently, but But how can someone who on the one hand says

I have submitted myself to the lordship of Jesus Christ and That that means accepting what

God says about who I am that I'm a sinner That I'm justly under his his wrath.

I mean, that's what repentance involves How can you on the one hand say

I've done that on the other hand say well yeah, you know

God may have made me as a as a male, but you know, he made a mistake and I'm actually a female that's a

That there's there's no way to hold those two things together and and so We can talk about the small number of people

Who can honestly state that they've Always had same -sex attraction and do not know of any other kind of attraction in their experience

But when it comes to transgenderism, you're on a completely different different planet and so the reality is that we are dealing with a non community being treated as a community and So you have people voluntarily

Associating with a community that cannot possibly provide any kind of unity the unity part of community because of how different these things are so All of these things

These issues and again, like I was like I was saying Michael addressed this if you want to listen to his line of fire program from yesterday where he

Addressed this particular subject. He didn't play anything from revoice. He just simply was dealing with the idea

Is there such a thing as a gay Christian? What what is? What where does our identity derived from in essence?

and so that was useful to listen to and my understanding is that Daryl Harrison and and the gang are going to be addressing this maybe already recorded it and Or record it tonight,

I don't know but I think it that podcast will drop tomorrow. So a number of us have felt the the need to address this issue because the fact that you have a

PCA church y 'all probably heard the conversation that took place on cross politic with the pastor of the church

You have a PCA church you have graduates of Southern Seminary This is not

What we've been listening to for a long long time coming from the PC USA Or the the liberal

Lutherans or the Episcopalians or whoever else it might be If the if those folks were doing it

It's like oh doing it again, huh? Aren't you getting tired doing this? This is about the 10th year in a row.

You've done it That's not we have here. This is a different type of situation and so many of us want to listen and I was most interested in what?

Nate Collins had to say as some of you know He was interviewed by Eric Metaxas about two years ago that's where I first heard the

The terminology of a gay man in a mixed orientation marriage now,

I did not hear that when it first aired That has become probably more listened to over the past few months than it was when it first came out

But then he was on with my daughter on theologians and They were trying to get to the you know, get some direct answers to certain questions and was difficult to do and so you might want to Listen to that episode if you want to hear more of the interaction with With Nate Collins, but I wanted to hear what he had to say

Because he's the the mind behind this And it's interesting

Tom Buck was telling me that Let me pull this up here,

I think it's still up. Yeah while Dr.

Collins was still as far as we can tell in at least some way officially associated with Southern teaching was

Back when the Pulse nightclub shooting took place and I Think it's been established since then that Homosexuality wasn't the primary issue in this thing at all, but yeah as it may

In the immediate after effects of that He Posted on June 13th 2016 how straight conservative

Christians can help and You know the very fact you put straight conservative

Christians together is You know raises questions in of itself but He goes through a list.

Here's the third thing on the list if Your conscience permits you attend a gay pride event this month

Not many straight conservative folks know that gay pride events commemorate the

Stonewall riots that took place on June 28th 1969 and are an occasion for LGBT people to remember the violence against their humanity

That that event represents in my opinion a conservative Christian can attend a gay pride event in solidarity with the shared humanity

We all have as image bearers of God now all

I can say is I don't know about seven or eight years ago I Purposefully followed some links for video of gay pride events.

I don't know how anybody How any Christian minister? Can ever say

Yeah, you go ahead you you it's one thing to go there knowing that you're going to be exposed to Nudity and perversity on a level that is just astonishing

Sex acts and everything else out in the public. I mean, that's that's just common at the vast majority of these events

Just there's no question about it. No one no homosexual who attends these would ever dispute that that's just the way it is

So, I don't know how anybody can say that unless they has just never gone to one or never looked at what happens

The only way you could go there is if you realize you're going into war you're going you know Like going into a mission field

That you're probably going to be arrested or attacked or beaten or something about the idea of going in solidarity

Is astonishing I don't even know how you begin To to make a defense of that that kind of a statement.

I I don't know but there it is from June of 2016 and What's interesting is at the the seventh thing is give to a charitable organization that either helps

LGBT people in crisis offers Christ focused support services or promotes awareness dialogue and peace as genuine

Christian values and one of the two of The three well, okay.

He links to love boldly. Don't know that one ERLC the

Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention and GCN GCN the gay

Christian Network Yeah, I Debated their president up in Montana a number of years ago.

Remember that author of torn Justin Yeah, and links to them to be able to give money to them and this is well still this is before we voice so You just go hmm.

Hmm. What does what does all that mean? Well, I don't know

Okay, so Let's listen to some of what Nate Collins had to say.

We're gonna do some interaction as we Frequently do but it's always best to let folks speak for themselves.

And so Here is here is Nate Collins In the film the greatest showman

The central anthem of the movie begins when the circus performers that sound really is that bad, isn't it?

Wow, I I wondered why I had had so much trouble listening to it The sound is just horrific.

I mean the hum is there and the Hawaiian arts maybe you can pull some of the bass out and and trouble it up some so it's actually understandable, but That's uh, that's that's tough

Sounded better at home. But Yeah, if we can pull some of the bass out and trouble that up so we can maybe make out some of it

Or excluded that's better Excluded from a happy joyful place

Led by the character of the bearded lady they sing about this exclusion and the shame

That they experience on a daily basis because of who their society perceives them to be the first verse of this song

Says I am NOT a stranger to the dark Hide away they say because we don't want your broken parts.

I've learned to be ashamed of all my scars Run away they say

No one will love you as you are The reality that I want to point to and draw your attention to right now is the sheer fatigue

That lies beneath these words It's exhausting to live in the darkness of rejection

It's exhausting To constantly be defined by others by the ways you feel broken or by the ways you don't measure up Or by a warped understanding of how and who you love

It's exhausting to feel like you have no option but to run away from love Is it no wonder then that for many of us the main reason we're here tonight is because we're just tired

I'll just say it. I'm tired Okay, so I Don't have any any reason to Doubt that dr.

Collins feels tired one of the things that struck me as I Listened to this now.

This is a short presentation. It is not exhaustive It I'm not trying to make it a

Overarching thesis statement of everything else And I asked a few others this and they they noticed the same thing it struck me

That I was listening to a lonely Man who's who's alone in his rejection not a married man with a wife and children this really struck me

The the terminology and the language Even of his standing there of his voice is of a of a person significantly more associated with a

Victimed community Then a man who knows what the right is

Is seeking to do it as best he can is Repentant and accepted not

For his Desires But from looking away from himself and Accepting who he is and someone else.

I did not hear that. I Did not hear that what I hear in dr.

Collins is an individual significantly and purposefully and knowingly associating

With a community based upon a disordered sexual desire and I expect that From a large number, but not all of Secular Non -religious homosexuals.

There are a lot of homosexuals that don't care about any of this stuff they love homosexuality they love what they do and They're not concerned about any of this stuff

They're sold over to it given over to it, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a conference that is

Put squarely in the midst of the great tradition as they use the terminology in other words a broadly

Christian moral and sexual ethic even though obviously there are Lots of things that could be said as to exactly where that derives from and you know

All the aberrations that developed during the medieval period and within Roman Catholicism and things like that But that's the context of this and I just found it striking

That if I had been watching this and and they didn't you had said to me by the way Do you know he's he's married and has children

I would have gone What? Now I knew that beforehand but just listening to the terminology and to the sadness

I Am weary I am tired this weariness and Tiredness will be defined a little bit more here in a way that Well, it's the reason

I chose this section to look at I can't hear it

Why? Okay, let's go back here. I Lost somebody in the other room,

I guess I'm tired of feeling burdened by loneliness because I believe lies that I'm unwanted

I'm tired of feeling burdened by shame because I think my orientation makes me less human I'm tired of feeling burdened by expectations from others because I think so little of myself

I'm tired. I'm tired of people saying I'm using the wrong words.

I'm tired of people saying that I'm not using enough of the right words I'm tired. I'm tired of hearing about gay people who have unsafe homes angry homes or no homes

I'm tired I'm tired of the reality that gay people live every day with verbal abuse from their co -workers bosses neighbors relatives and even friends

I'm tired now it is it is hard not to hear this as a

Lament, that's a term that is was used in the conference like a lament of a victim

He's adopting the posture Of the victim ology that if you recall

Years ago when we first responded to Matthew vines when we

Respond to dr. Gushy And did so extensively for hours on end

There was that regular Utilization of that kind of language as well.

Dr. Gushy, you know brought up the issues of Uh teen suicide and Homeless people and all the rest of these things and the assumption always is

That there is no meaningful relationship between the disordered desire

And the resultant disruption of normal human relationships the idea is everyone else

Is at fault The one that is not at fault Is the one with the disordered desires?

So there is an anthropology behind this the anthropology is there's nothing you can do about it

There's nothing that you can do about this. It's just the way god made us

And this is really What I need to focus on by the end of the program, I hope

I don't forget to do so as we talk about other subjects Um, it's where I want to get into the text itself uh, because I think the bible does address

Whether disordered not god honoring desires

Can be something That is a fundamental defining element

Of a true child of god I think that that is actually addressed in scripture interestingly enough right close to one of the two texts that Dr.

Collins studied in his dissertation so um We'll get to that I'm tired of being reminded over and over again that 40 percent of homeless teenagers are lgbt

That gay and bi youth are three times more likely to seriously contemplate suicide than their straight friends

And that they are almost five times more likely to have attempted it now Is it

No longer even possible to point out the logical reality that Unless you just empty

The moral sexual activities of a human being of all ethical and moral meaning

That there is a connection between these things That there's something that is fundamentally destructive of a person's psyche

Fundamentally destructive of one's relationships with others one's relationship with god one's relationship with oneself

Isn't that the insight we get from romans one? I really wonder to be perfectly honest with you um, whether The individuals who were primary speakers at revoice would agree

That romans one is actually directly relevant to a discussion of their experience

Of same -sex attraction, or is that a subgroup? I really wonder about that That's where I think it has been rightly pointed out.

There's a serious problem with revoice revoice isn't

Wasn't done by A group that would reflect meaningfully the church itself

It was done, you know Okay, it it's like putting together an entire group of people who struggle with anger constantly and experience anger constantly

And the only people that are allowed to speak and attend are people who experience anger first of all, that would be a rather volatile, uh get together in the first place, but uh beyond that um

Who would think that that's a wise thing to do? Well, we don't feel accepted by all you calm people

Well, but that's not the point you you need the calm people because it's the the calm people that can give you the appropriate exhortations uh toward How you're supposed to behave?

And how you're supposed to respond to situations? And so if you you put together a a conference that is primarily from people that all have the exact same view

Of this particular issue. It's not really representative of The church itself where you would expect to be getting um balanced exhortation and balanced teaching

And so when you don't have that balanced teaching Then you don't even have anyone raising the question being able to ask the question well

Why does paul use homosexuality as an example of the twistedness that happens between in in the creation?

creation itself and in the creature When they rebel against god You know is is that?

What what does that say? Because I've I've spoke. I've I've heard an innumerable number of Homosexual advocates people experience same -sex attraction

Say well that has nothing to do with me because that's only talking about people who have rejected god and been given over by him

They're idolaters and i'm not an idolater. I'm a christian so I can't have anything to do with me Well, the problem is that the the person who wrote romans 1 also wrote first corinthians 6

Which is going to be one of the only foundational texts you can go to for an understanding of what this this subject is all about so I'm tired

I'm tired and grieved because 40 percent of transgender adults say they've attempted suicide And that 92 of those attempts were before the age of 25

I'm tired Okay now one other thing um

If he has not done these things, why is he tired notice the? And people would say what's a wonderful thing to to to self -identify with other people

We are not to self -identify with other people's weaknesses That's not something that you're you're to drag hold grab hold of is their

Their rebellion or their sins or their disordered desires or whatever else it might be again, the foundation of this community

And it may just be a community of empathy but but still the foundation of it from a christian perspective

Is not a proper biblical foundation And I think it skews how you listen to what other how

Could someone in this position? Meaningfully and pastorally

Recognize differences in the motivations of people involved In the homosexual lifestyle or tempted or the homosexual lifestyle

Once they have bought into this community idea as long as you're in the community. Well, hey, you know

Where's the where's the critical examination? I don't know. It seems to be difficult to do

I'm tired of seeing the fragility of life Put on full display In the stories of gender and sexual minorities who are trying to eek by squeak by every day of the week

Okay. Now i'm going to try it's it's hard in in the thing here Uh, and then

I forgot To find out what the time stamp was. I want to use that. Let me homesick

I'm tired I'm tired of hearing about gay people who have unsafe homes angry homes.

Okay, or no home. It was 33 17 Let me try to get a little bit closer to I want to use

Oh, I see what's going on. Never mind. Uh I was looking at the wrong number Okay, so Maybe it's 31 17

Let's see if we're closer here gay and bi youth are three times more likely to seriously contemplate suicide than their straight friends

And that they are almost five times more likely to have attempted it. Yeah, i'm tired close enough.

We'll get there in a second I'm tired and grieved because 40 percent of transgender adults say they've attempted suicide

And that 92 of those attempts were before the age of 25 I'm tired

I'm tired of seeing the fragility of life put on full display In the stories of gender and sexual minorities who are trying to eek by squeak by okay gender and sexual minorities

Okay now here's The The approach right now and and the reason this is working is because we

This isn't this isn't what we're accustomed to in our lives and It's happening so quickly that most of us don't know how to respond to it, but you introduce

New terminologies That are themselves arguments

But you just use them And when you force the other side to use them, you've won part of the argument by the use of language

What is the basis in a christian context? For the concept of sexual minorities

What is that? What what is a sexual minority? Minority Because again

You'd have male homosexuals. You have female homosexuals lesbians. You've got bisexuals.

You've got transgender and all the flavors in between And in every one of those groups you have a myriad of different reasons expressions

Ranges of behavior and desire. How does that make a minority?

where see once you accept the idea of sexual and gender minorities

You have accepted the worldview That legitimates and legitimizes these concepts

And it didn't come from a biblical framework That's what again makes me go

As to his doctoral dissertation Because as as as I as I read it before uh

The the terminology that was specifically used there is gender identities secondary gender identities that sounds a whole lot like some kind of a

Sexual minority type thing um to me um,

I challenge This concept From a biblical perspective

There there is no creation context

There is no fallen creation context Um gender, for example don't even go to the rare rare Rare genetic issues.

I know people love to go there 99 .8 % of the people that we are talking about When we talk about quote -unquote transgenderism have zero genetic abnormalities we're not talking about having an extra y chromosome or an extra x chromosome or any of Those types of things people who have that completely different category.

It's a physical manifestation you deal with it from that perspective That's not we've got here You've got people that are xx or xy

Any genetic test will show it there's nothing wrong with them. There's no abnormalities in their genetic code

So how are they a a minority they're they're not a minority

Not from a christian perspective because you do not make minorities out of sin

You do not make minorities out of quote -unquote orientation

But that term is going to come up over and over again sexual Gender minorities.

It's just accepted and it because I never

Heard that terminology More than what five years ago at the most so once it gets introduced the people introduce it get to fill it with meaning or By being purposefully vague

Get to use it for all sorts of things smuggling in the conclusion before the end of the argument and Again we saw this outside but because it was happening outside.

It was sort of like well Every day of the week just to get by now

If i'm not alone in this and I suspect i'm not How do we respond

Where can we start? I think the first thing we need to do learn how to corporately lament

The reality that gender and sexual minorities live with virtually each and every day now lament as They like to point out is a biblical category you have lamentations there are

Psalms of lament there are songs of lament within the historical books and and things like that, but I don't believe that there is any biblical category of lament like this

And that is a lament for a sexual or gender minority

You can lament the brokenness Of the human race

But biblical lament is theological And it begins with an acceptance of the holiness of god and his just punishment of sin and therefore

It biblical lament does not open itself up to being hijacked by Worldly movements and worldly concepts

It must be defined in light of god's law And so I don't think that a proper element of biblical lament is that Gay people

In their experience will feel rejected by the majority because the majority do not have their sexuality

No more than take any other sin And you know, and I don't know how people want to handle this because on the one hand you constantly hear people saying

Homosexuality is like any other sin. So don't make it something special But on the other hand, well, well god made me this way and it's natural.

So which one is it? Evidently If you are any one of these, so if you're if you're bisexual and I i've not

I've not heard a bisexual trying to make this argument So let's stick with A homosexual if you're homosexual, well, you know god made me this way and I recognize that he

You know what god's law says about this So therefore I need to seek other ways of community and other ways of communion and other ways of fellowship and friendship and love

And intimacy and that was what this was all about But then when you say okay, what other group

Would you allow to make? this kind of demand, you know, we we

Should be accepted by the church and we should be loved by the church and we should be given

Opportunities to serve within the church and the church needs to accept us the way we are. So what other what other group?

Is going to be able to make that claim That are identifying themselves based upon what is an accepted definition of sin

You know, there's all sorts of vice lists go through them And where do you have people identifying themselves on the basis of those particular failures

Those particular character flaws those particular acts of rebellion those particular acts of Of unwillingness to submit to god's ways

Whatever definition you want to use what other groups can get to do that? So on the one hand, yes, we are

We are claiming to be special And on the other hand It's just one sin amongst many.

Well, which which is it going to be? It's got to be it's got to be one or the other Before we can really advance much in having conversation

The church right now But lament doesn't come naturally to us

At least lament that leads to life I mean we all know that person

Perhaps you are that person Who just can't seem to move past lament? And I don't just say this jokingly.

Sometimes it's hard to know where good lament begins to shade into something too dark Into a depression that's actually the opposite of life

So to help us understand what lament that is deeply and thoroughly christian might look like I'd like to point us toward two examples that we

See in the bible neither of which will be any surprise the prophet jeremiah and the example of jesus

And after we've looked at these two examples, we'll end with Just some points of application that might help those of us who are great tradition gay christians

Know how to lament So again, there's uh the utilization of the terminology great christian great tradition broad moral ethical tradition uh going back with history church, but gay christians, so, you know

This is his terminology um and It's it's almost like we're just going to keep using this until you all give up And start using it as well and the only

Reason not to use it Is if you have thought through What it would require of you in your redefinition of what a christian is because You know, there's there's a lot of people unfortunately that are responding to this not by listening to what's being said and going

Uh, it doesn't fit with this parameter here. That doesn't fit with what paul said with us I don't fit with jesus teaching over here

There's you know, you've got the whole thread of the of the law of god here and a lot of people are just responding emotionally and prejudicially

Rather than listening and going, okay You are requiring us to adopt new parameters in our understanding

Not only of who you are But of who everybody else is too. So this is a Small minority saying the church needs to change for us

And what's the basis of that? What kind of argumentation? Is being put forward to do that Um, that may seem real clinical

Maybe not emotional enough for a lot of folks, but given that that's what the argument really is um, that's what

That's what we need to see we need to see that kind of argumentation. I've never seen it um personally

So the prophet of jeremiah prophesied to the southern kingdom of judah for almost 40 years from the time of king.

Josiah all the way Until the nation of judah was carried away into babylon As a prophet jeremiah's primary ministry was to call the nation of judah to repentance for their idolatry and during his ministry

Jeremiah experienced enormous suffering as a result of his faithfulness to his calling

Okay, listen carefully this some of you're going why didn't you you know, why play all this because I think you need to hear

How this was presented. Dr. Collins is not a is He's a bright fellow And he's a good speaker

And he can tug at the heartstrings And so I want you to hear because this is this is one of the things that I took away from this here is a conservative southern baptist phd in new testament identifying with a calling related to His claim to be a gay christian

And he's going to parallel that with jeremiah And he is going to identify those who oppose

This prophetic call to the church with the False and evil shepherds that jeremiah had to deal with the false prophets of his day

That's that's that's a big claim and You know one thing we've done this program for a long long time is try to help people to learn to identify

What are the key elements of an argument don't get don't get sidetracked by the flashy

Focus upon what really makes the argument hang together and take it apart So listen to the language that's being used

His opponents often plotted against his life he was beaten he was put in stocks he was mocked

And perhaps most famously he was thrown into a well and left to starve to death Listen to these words from jeremiah 20

Cursed be the day on which I was born The day when my mother bore me let it not be blessed

Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father a son is born to you making him very glad Let that man be like the cities that the lord overthrew without pity

Let him hear a cry in the morning and an alarm at noon because he did not kill me in the womb

So my mother would have been my grave and her womb forever great Why did

I come out from the womb to see toil and sorrow? And spend my days in shame

Jeremiah was sent by god. God called him and he answered that call

To call the nation of judah to repentance for idolatry and he was punished by his people for that Jeremiah was being nothing but obedient He was doing what god had called and instructed him to do

But what exactly was jeremiah saying That got him into trouble.

It wasn't his accusations of idolatry That were causing his life to be so difficult

The people of judah weren't the source of jeremiah's woes It was attacks from false prophets

Jeremiah 14 13 through 14 says then I said ah lord god behold the prophets say to them the people of judah

You shall not see the sword Nor shall you have famine But I will give you assured peace in this place and the lord said to me

The prophets are prophesying lies in my name I did not send them nor did

I command them or speak to them They are prophesying to you a lying vision a worthless divination and the deceit of their own minds

So on the one hand you have jeremiah who's saying that the nation of judah will be punished for its idolatries

And on the other hand you have these other prophets false prophets Who are saying no, you're not going to be punished.

It's the nation of babylon. In fact, not israel That's going to be struck down Now this raises an interesting question

How are teachers like this these false prophets able to gain positions of power and influence in the first place

Jeremiah gives us the answer to this question as well false prophets arise

When there are bad shepherds He hints at this all the way in the very beginning jeremiah 3

Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say return faithless israel declares the lord

I will not look at you in anger for I am merciful declares the lord. I will not be angry forever

Only acknowledge your guilt that you have rebelled against the lord your god and scattered your favors among foreigners under every green tree

And that you have not obeyed my voice declares the lord Okay, can I just mention just just corrective here because i'm not

I'm not agreeing with everything that's being said, but I don't have time to necessarily interact with everything um

It the the people of israel are central to the sin here

The false prophets are sent as punishment as are the uh improper poor false shepherds

But it's the people that are committing the idolatries under every green tree They're the ones going to the ashtaroth and going to the groves and so on and so forth so there's there's a little bit of a an attempt to create something that's

A little bit on the imbalanced side as far as i'm concerned Hern, oh faithful faithless children declares the lord for I am your master

I will take you one from a city and two from a family and bring you to zion and I will give you shepherds after my own heart

Who will feed you with knowledge and understanding? jeremiah 5 30 to 31

He says an appalling and horrible thing has happened in the land The prophets prophesy falsely and the priests rule at their discretion jeremiah 12 10 through 11

Many shepherds have destroyed my vineyard They have trampled down my portion.

They have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness they Have made it a desolation desolate it mourns to me the whole land is made desolate

But no man lays it to heart and lastly in jeremiah 23 1 through 3

Therefore thus says the lord the god of israel concerning the shepherds who care for my people

You have scattered my flock and have driven them away and you have not attended to them

Behold I will attend to you For your evil deeds declares the lord

So jeremiah lays the blame for the plight of the people of israel. Not only on their own idolatries

And not even on the prophets who were prophesying peace peace but also On the spiritual shepherds of his people

So where does that leave us? How does that help us lament?

If we read the next few verses jeremiah shows us what lament couldn't look like what it can look like to cry out to god

While suffering for doing what is right jeremiah had hope

The very next four verses jeremiah says in 23 3 through 6 Then I will gather the remnants of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them

And I will bring them back to their fold And they shall be fruitful and multiply

I will set shepherds over them who will care for them and they shall fear no more

Nor be dismayed Neither shall any be missing declares the lord

Behold the days are coming declares the lord when I will raise up for david a righteous branch

And he shall reign as king and deal wisely And shall execute justice and righteousness in the land

In his days judah will be saved and israel will dwell securely and this is the name

By which he will be called The lord Is our righteousness? Jeremiah knew that his sufferings

Were real and that they were a real cause for lament But he also knew that true lament ends in hope for deliverance

Not ultimately from suffering although that's part of it But from the injustice of his suffering and who is the source of this justice

It's jesus Who is the lord our righteousness? And this is exactly what we encounter in the gospels, right?

When jesus takes on a prophetic posture It's always towards the pharisees

Who were the bad shepherds in his day? Matthew 23

I'm, just going to read one of the famous woes then jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples The scribes and the pharisees sit on moses seat and do so do and observe whatever they tell you but not the works they do for they preach

But do not practice They tie up heavy

Burdens, there are some thoughts and opinions.

Okay. Now just just very quickly What are the heavy burdens? What what in in dr.

Collins is mine? What are the heavy burdens that modern pharisees? Are tying upon people see if you can make the connection as he finally makes the application here

About our experience of orientation that are heavy burdens Right our experience of orientation are the heavy burdens

That's not the heavy burdens that the pharisees were binding upon people

They were adding to the law of god So it's not the law of god

What's the burden? that the Homosexual is allegedly carrying

Again, see from their perspective. This is a morally neutral thing. It's just the way we are.

It's how god made us and so how can you

How can you parallel that with with adding all the traditions? The core bound rule or whatever else it might be that the that the pharisees were

Placing upon people Is is that an appropriate parallel? I don't believe so bad shepherds give us those burdens

They are hard to bear and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger

This is the first of seven woes that jesus pronounces over the pharisees the bad shepherds

And the common thread through all of them is that they're being unjust If you're insure

Unsure that this link exists between prophecy and unjust injustice. Just take a look at the end of the chapter

It ends with lament Oh jerusalem

Jerusalem the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it

How often I would have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her rings

And you were not willing so where does that leave us?

That's a real good question. Um because Listen carefully.

I mean try to put aside any of the emotional aspects Listen carefully.

This is a biblical argument that's being presented or at least attempted to be presented See if the parallels make any sense whatsoever try not to be just prejudiced

But you know make meaningful application here and see if this makes sense too

How does this help us? Lament, I think to answer that question.

We can go back to jeremiah In jeremiah 15, we can all say with him.

Oh lord, you know Remember me and visit me and take vengeance

For me on my persecutors In your forbearance take me not away know that for your sake

I bear reproach Your words were found And I ate them

And your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart

For I Am called by your name. Oh lord god of hosts

Is it possible? The gay people today Are being sent by god

Like jeremiah to find god's words

For the church To eat them and make them our own um, no

I mean just basically no, I mean you can say that with all the solemnity and seriousness

And the answer is no What what? I I utterly fail to see

Any parallelism whatsoever jeremiah is called to deliver a sentence of judgment based upon the clear covenantal documents

Of scripture that have been given has nothing to do with sexual minorities gender minorities

Anything else the only connection you tried to make was the term justice Well, you don't want justice you need mercy we all do but especially one who identifies their christian experience on the basis of a sin that you say well i'm not going to commit the actual action of the sin and and Again part of the fundamental disagreement here

Is that many of the people at revoice not all but many of the people at revoice They didn't all have the same position, of course, but dr.

Collins doesn't believe that orientation is sinful. It just it just is um what you do with it is what matters and I've responded to that.

I don't know four or five weeks ago We did a specific study on the subject of the difference between calling something a

Amoral Orientation that does not in and of itself have moral connotations And what a disordered desire is when god says this is displeasing to me then that desire itself

Is displeasing before god? Whether you act on or not goes to another level obviously um, but the desire itself is unnatural and dishonoring to god and it's dishonoring to the created order that he

That he has created So, uh, the answer is no, no, there is no no, there's no parallel at all to shed light on contemporary false teachings and even idolatries

Okay what are the contemporary false teachings and idolatries those are

Strong words, uh, if we were saying that read that dr. Collins is guilty of false teachings and idolatries um

That would be pretty strong language, wouldn't it? I mean you so let's let's see. What's let's see what these are

Not just the false teaching of the progressive sexual ethic, but other more.

Okay. I'm glad That we have identified there The progressive sexual ethic is a false teaching

Good good forms of false teaching Is it he had said they're more subtle forms?

Of false teaching. So what are these? Subtle forms of false teaching all that gender and sexual minorities who've lived lives of costly obedience are themselves

A prophetic call to the church to abandon idolatrous attitudes toward the nuclear family

Okay Um, I cut that up. I apologize um

Let me let me back up just a little bit Not just the false teaching of the progressive sexual ethic, but other more subtle forms of false teaching

Is it possible that gender and sexual minorities who've lived lives of costly obedience are themselves?

A prophetic call to the church to abandon idolatrous attitudes toward the nuclear family Towards sexual pleasure

If so, then we are prophets What does that mean, uh

When when when that quote first, uh first came out I was

I was interested to note um some individuals who You know very quickly said yeah, you know there really is a

Idolatry in the church about the nuclear family. Uh, I noticed everybody said that single

Um, okay uh I hope you'll consider the possibility that maybe um

That has something to do with things and obviously as A man who's been married for 36 years

As I'd like to say I was never single Um, I went from being a teenager.

I mean I got married as a teenager. So, um I didn't have to go through that Long torturous confusing thing called singlehood like certain other people

I could mention right now, but I won't Because we're on the program right now um But uh, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't no no, no um

I won't mention what my kids used to call other people and things like that No, that is that would be completely inappropriate at this point in the program being very serious anyway, um so I suppose

That's why it took me by surprise Uh This this claim of idolatry of the nuclear family

Um, I think that's way overblown Okay There are biblical passages about Individuals who commit themselves to the service of christ and as a result forego marriage

No question about there's a discussion Of that by paul And uh, and and I I get it but that is not the normative christian experience

And What is Most important today is the fact that we are attempting to And our culture is attempting to create all sorts of new categories

That destroy the biblical category Of the normative and I say it's absolutely normative because The scripture uses it as the example of christ and the church

One husband one wife family children Matthew 19 man shall

Leave his father and mother cleaved to his wife to come one flesh. They have children repeat process.

That's how humanity continues Um I I don't

I guess you could Idolatry that idolize that in some sense

If you you know, just believe that there was no other calling or no other, you know, you know

Okay, I don't know anybody that's doing that but be it as it may How are homosexuals male male and female bisexuals and people

Who rebel against god's creative order in the matter of gender considered to be prophets

To the church Remember the the words that jeremiah ate were god's words of judgment and promise that were revelation.

So what revelation? Dr. Collins, are you eating? That becomes sweet to you

That you then are to speak to the church To correct us

On the basis of your disordered desires it frightens me when someone can be so and this is this is one of the problems

I have with the idea of lgbtq community once you become so a part of that you lose the perspective from which to be able to speak in a meaningfully balanced fashion of the rest of the body

And that's what that's what this is That's what this is Prophets, I mean

I can understand someone coming to the church And saying

I recognize the goodness of god's law and the goodness of god's creative decree and I recognize

And I am going to continue my entire life to pray That god will remove from me

Any desire that is displeasing in his sight. I will not give that task up a lot of these people have

They've given that task up. They've they've now embraced it As a self -identifying mark, but those who say

I will continue to pray that god will take this from me But if he chooses not to then

I must recognize that he has a purpose in that and I need your help to recognize

What my purpose is in that you don't go off and start a support group from other people like that And then say the church we are your prophets

Listen to us There's no correction for this because there's no it's become a monologue an echo chamber within the quote -unquote community the preceding speaker right at the end of his talk

Uttered words that reflect this exact same thing I you know, they they they complain and lament

That they feel excluded, but the exclusion is coming Yeah, they're are there people who exclude them because they're afraid they don't understand

Bias, but yes there is but I think they need to recognize That once you start turning to this faux community from a christian perspective faux community

You lose your balance And to to to identify

Same -sex attracted individuals or or gender confused individuals as Prophets sent to the church based upon jeremiah

Uh, that's where I went. Uh, we need to talk about this. Um, this is not no no but in order to embrace this

We also have to embrace lament we have to cry out to god in hope for deliverance

But if we want to follow christ in the same path that he took Then we have to understand that deliverance only comes when we can trust god

In our own experiences of unjust suffering because jesus also trusted his father perfectly

During the unjust suffering that he experienced. Okay. So what exactly is this unjust suffering?

We know what it was a jeremiah's experience. We know what it was in jesus's experience But is it is it solely

Unkind words by fellow christians based on ignorance Um, what what is this unjust suffering?

I i'm afraid That There's much more to it here.

There's there is a subtle demand for a fundamental reshaping

Of the moral and ethical standards of the christian church it sounds to me like maybe the door is open here for demanding that um such individuals should be allowed to have who have

Openly said this is This is who I am This is my weakness.

This is my sin Um, I do not want to act upon it help me to be faithful That's a repentant attitude that seeks

To be a part of the body, but then there are those that will say Well, I know

I can't act on these things. However, this is how god has made me it is not sinful And therefore I should have the right

To be in leadership in the church. I should have the right to be an elder

I should there should be No concern that I have disordered desires

And that if there is someone who says no, I don't I think that disqualifies you

Um that that's the persecution that's the injustice that then makes you prophetic like jesus or jeremiah

Um, I think that that's a really dangerous direction to go really really dangerous direction to go

It's a long pause. Don't worry If this is true We have a hard road ahead we have suffering to endure we have injustice to endure

And we have our own flesh to endure the hardest thing about injustice and unjust suffering is that When it comes from fellow believers our call is to forgive

So this injustice very plainly is coming from the church And it

I did not hear a delineation of of unfair unkind rejection of their repentance or whatever else it may be it sounds like the injustice is the continued belief

That disordered desires or rebellious desires Are in and of themselves sinful before god

That seems to be the next thing that now has to be Um, you know, it's the next thing on the agenda in essence uh that that we are to be forced to uh to embrace theologian miroslav volf says

Forgiveness flounders Because I exclude the enemy from the community of humans even as I exclude myself from the community of sinners

I'm going to read that again Forgiveness flounders because I exclude the enemy from the community of humans

Even as I exclude myself from the community of sinners

Even though we've been trying to understand what it means to lament, the last word tonight cannot end with lament.

Lament is real because injustice is real. And for us, that means injustice against gender and sexual minorities is real.

But ultimately, the injustices we suffer come from others who must be forgiven, particularly when they are other

Christians. We need the church, and the church needs us.

Okay, let's let's think about that. We're coming up on an hour and a half, and I don't want to overburden everyone.

It's a heavy subject. There's no no tways about that. We need the church, and the church needs us.

Well, my concern with that statement is that is the context in which it has been placed.

When you say the church needs a community that has formed itself outside of godly biblical parameters, and I'm sorry if you are offended by that, but I see nothing in apostolic practice to substantiate the existence of something like the

Revoice Conference. I see nothing. There were all sorts of quote -unquote minorities in the church, but they did not get together as minorities and demand an extra voice or a particular voice within the church.

This is taking us back to another subject that we've addressed a lot recently, and that is the fact that there is no

Jew or Gentile, there is no bond or free, there is no Scythian, barbarian. One, in Christ is all, and in all, you don't have political, sexual, ethnic subgroups to get to get together and do their thing, especially, especially.

But we must make a distinction here, because when you look at Colossians 3 or Ephesians 4, and you look at the the groups that Paul specifically says these are not divisions, there's only one renewal, that none of these things make any difference anymore, when you actually look at them, they don't include anything like this, because Paul could never conceive of anything like this.

And that's why we must take at least a few moments here at the end to look at 1st

Corinthians chapter 6, and I'll try to be brief. Because we've gone long already, but I want,

I didn't want, I feared being accused of a -contextual snippet quoting, and so I played the entire last part of the presentation.

It's certainly, if you accuse me of taking that out of context, well, what can

I say? We know the text, we know it well. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

And the Apostle says, do not be deceived, and then he goes through a list, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers.

Then you have the the two terms together, malakoi, utaarsanakoitai, which

I think is best understood as the active and passive members of a homosexual encounter.

So the effeminate homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, quite a list, will inherit the kingdom of God.

None of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And then, of course, the important word of hope, and such were some of you, and we have emphasized in the past there's no textual variant here.

The form of the verb is very clear. Such were, not such are. Such were some of you, but you were washed.

Now stop right there and just ask, we just have to ask an honest question. Does this washing, does this sanctification, does this justification and the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God mean something? Is it only a spiritual thing that does not have ramification for behavior?

Well, it does. Now the folks at Revoice would say, we agree,

I think, most of them anyway, would say, we agree, and that's why we embrace the traditional sexual ethic and we do not act upon these desires.

But the question is, would there be anyone in Corinth that would have read those words that Paul wrote to them and said, you know, in light of what

Paul wrote, I'm thinking about getting together with, well, let's use pleonecti.

Let's use the covetous. We're going to get together and we're going to admit that we still have strong covetous desires.

Now we're not going to steal from anybody, but we still have strong desires.

We just covet whatever everybody else has got and God just made us that way. And that's just who we are.

And you may mistreat us for being covetous toward everything you've got, but we're going to endure the suffering as a minority in the church.

And by our being unjustly treated by you, we will be sent as prophets to the church that you can learn.

You go, come on. Yeah, I know. Come on. That's the point. No one would ever imagine that's a possibility because it just seems like the past tense at the beginning of verse 11, and then the adversative use of a law, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of our God, means there's been a change. And the very next verse is all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.

All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

And that term means to be dominated, dominated, taken over by something.

And it just seems to me that when it comes to this one area, the idea is we can be dominated by this set of desires and the church must accept that that is how

God has made us. He's called us to this and that none of that sanctification, washing or justification thing has anything to do with sexual desire.

Well, if you are dominated by it so much so that you identify yourself as a gay man in a mixed orientation marriage, isn't that domination?

Isn't that what the whole identity idea and concept is?

Is that not domination? I will not be mastered by anything.

That was Paul's assertion. It should be ours as well. There is no question that only a few decades ago, even the best churches in the land, if you had come to the pastoral staff and said, this is my experience, this is what my regular temptation.

Notice they don't use the term temptation. That would be a good biblical term. This is my regular temptation.

It would have been the nightmare of the vast majority of elders and preachers to have to try to, they would have to be going beyond what their education prepared them for, to try to help you in that way.

God by his spirit could certainly give wisdom to do it, but the point is the church wasn't even something you talked about.

It wasn't even something you talked about. Now it seems to be about all we're talking about.

What has changed? What has changed? Is it necessary to think these things through?

Obviously. Do I need to repeat what I said earlier that if you've been one of those folks in social media, online, that just sort of want to jump on the bandwagon and, oh, this is bad, bad, bad, but you never really thought through what these issues really mean?

Well, don't do that. Think them through. Be serious about it. But at the same time, once you come to the conclusion, wow, there are some major ramifications to what's being said here and you start to recognize what's smuggled in.

They may not even realize they're doing it. It may just be the way that they themselves have been taught. This is how you promote your perspective.

This is how it's being done these days. The point is you have to identify the hidden presuppositions and when you identify what they really are, you're left going, there is no way that a faithful biblical

Christian can buy this kind of argumentation. So I'm looking forward to what others say as well.

There is wisdom to be gathered from listening to what many others have different types of experiences and backgrounds that have different perspectives, things like that.

But I do hope for more voices to be raised to sound an alarm, not an alarmist alarm, but an alarm focused upon what's really being promoted within this movement, because it does not lead to a positive end.

Let me just mention as we wrap up, I'm not sure,

I don't think we've had opportunity to put it up yet, but pretty soon we will have on our website an ad for, it is up, okay.

All right, let me pop on over there. There it is, look at that, that was quick. Yes, Hasim, son of Ramallah, king of graphics.

If you look at the banner ads at the top of the page at aomin .org,

Saturday, September 8th, 2018, 6 .30 PM, Switzerland Community Church, 2179

State Road 13, St. John's, Florida. The website is given there as well.

Debate between Reverend Patrick Rogers and Reverend Dwayne J.

Robinson. Is homosexuality consistent with New Testament obedience?

They will be taking on myself and Dr. Michael Brown. So Dr. Brown and I are teaming up, finally, after all of these years, expressing a desire to work together again as we did, wow, what was that, 2011,

I think, 2012, somewhere around there, when we did the debate on the

Jewish Voice broadcast against Anthony Buzzard and Joseph Goode, this time on the subject of homosexuality.

Is homosexuality consistent with New Testament obedience? You might say, why put it that way?

One of the individuals, I'm not sure which one of the two, does believe that homosexuality is inconsistent with the

Old Testament law, but that the New Testament allows for it. So trust me, we'll be ready for whichever direction is gone on that one, but that's coming up in just over a month.

So those of you in the Florida area, the information is up on the website now, and so you might want to be aware of that, since it's obviously directly relevant to the subject that we dealt with today.

So there you go. As I said, let me just remind you, if you listen to this later on down the road, the

Be Thinking podcast tomorrow, I have been told, will be on this subject.

I hope the guys there will take this as a compliment.

I normally don't say, hey, listen in to what I haven't heard yet, but these guys are biblically sound and I love the insights they have, and so I'm just going to trust that they're going to do a good job in dealing with this and probably give you some perspectives that I didn't, because there's a lot to be said on this particular subject.

So that's going to be coming up tomorrow if you want to hear some other voices and go that perspective.

So thank you very much for listening to the program today. We will be back later in the week,