Vicky Beeching Comes Out; A Giggling Sudanese Cleric Shows How to Cherry Pick Ahadith; Ahmed Deedat

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00:35

We really starting right now? I'm still looking stuff up. Yeah, well, we're working on stuff.

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It's been an interesting morning. Hello. I'm going to tell you something. We got smacked today.

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I think we've gotten more rain here in Phoenix over the past week than certainly the preceding year.

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And I got out this morning, went outside to put some sunscreen on.

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And I noticed that it rained. And I said, I didn't hear any rain. So I did the dutiful thing.

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I looked at the radar. And here is this blob of rain. It's going to the northeast.

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It's going away from us. And I look to the southwest. It's nothing there.

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Clear as a bell. OK, cool. So I head out on a 50 mile ride and I don't bring any.

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I don't have a rain jacket. I got nothing. It's just because it's Phoenix and you'll get these little things that will go through.

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Well, that was that wasn't that was not a good thing, because in a incredibly brief period of time, a massive storm developed.

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And once I started heading back toward home. Well, I did. I put a picture on Facebook while I was hiding behind a pillar at QT.

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And I discovered that QT, the things over the QT pumps are not meant to be waterproof, not by a long shot.

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Man, I'll tell you that was that that that was that was a mess. So I'm a little bit behind because I'm still looking stuff up that I was listening to on the ride.

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I don't know where to get to them today anyways. So I'm probably looking up stuff that's only relevant to the next program, but welcome.

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Anyhow, we survived. I did have to call my son and he came and rescued me.

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He said for a long time, if you ever ever get in a situation, you got to got to get a ride, you know, let me know.

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And so I said, well, today's the day, man. Here we go. So I got to ride home today because even once the rain stopped, man, there are a couple of did

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I did I move things? Okay, there were a couple of intersections that what was what was the name of your

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Bronco? Odie? Odie? Yeah, you would have you would have enjoyed the a couple of those.

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Don't get me started on Odie. Oh, yeah. Well, don't get me started on. What was it? Union Hills and I -17 and Odie.

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Yeah, that's what. Yeah. So the water's coming up over the hood.

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And you ended up having to do what with it? You just keep going. Uh huh. Yeah. And and if I recall correctly, you had to take it to a dealership and have the engine washed out.

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The engine was fine. It was just all the differential seals and there was water in the crankcase.

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No big deal. Yeah. Yeah. And how old are you then? Never mind.

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Never mind. Oh, plenty old enough to know better. Let's put it that way. Plenty old enough to know better.

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Anyhow, so hopefully we'll still be with you. Because what's weird is these storms are just they just explode.

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They just pop up and boom. I mean, we were talking just a couple hours ago and you said it started raining down here.

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So I looked at the radar and there's this little tiny green blob. OK, just a little tiny green blob.

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Who's scared of a little green blob? Boom, orange and red and and turning 35th

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Avenue into a river. And oh, it was we have been getting inches and inches and inches.

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And that's not normal for us here, but we need it, I suppose. Of course, when it comes this fast.

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It just turns everything into mush and you've got flash floods and it all ends up in the

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Gulf of Mexico anyway. So I'm not sure how much really helps helps us. But anyhow, Eric Kiel is watching the

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Dividing Line live for the first time. Welcome, Eric. It's not exciting.

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It's just me sitting here. I don't know why we do this, but well, I do know what it is because we're going to watch some videos and we're going to look at some

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Greek text and some Arabic text and all sorts of stuff today, if I will. But get around to getting to work here because we have many things to do.

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Let's begin the program today. Well, I guess we've already begun the program because we're four minutes in. Vicki Beeching, I'll be perfectly honest with you.

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I had never heard of her till last year. I you know, all these she's going to she's going to get her doctorate at the

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University of Durham in biblical studies and she's going to write her book on homosexuality and CNN.

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Everybody else is going to make it the final word on all things. Dr. Vicki Beeching has answered all questions.

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You know, that's just that's just the way it's going to be. I'm making my prediction now.

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Evidently, Vicki Beeching has written a bunch of praise choruses or songs or something.

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I don't know. She's introduced in this British interview as sort of a

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Christian rock star or something. Again, she don't she don't have anything the

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Trinity hymnal. So Reformed Baptists are going, oh, but she's very pretty and well -spoken.

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And I first heard of her last year because she came out in favor of same sex marriage.

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And I made some comment. I don't remember the details. I think I went over some statements in her blog or something like that.

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I don't know. Well, of course, you've all heard. Well, probably most of you heard that over the past couple of weeks, she's come out as a lesbian.

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Shock of all shocks. And and so she's doing the.

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You know, I don't quite understand this part either, but, you know, that that makes you brave and and someone to be interviewed and and all that kind of stuff.

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And so they had a discussion between her and Scott Lively, which was lively.

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And I just wanted to listen to a couple of things that she said, just sort of go. This is what's coming. This is this is.

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You know, she's like I said, she's working on degrees, advanced degrees in theology, including a

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Ph .D., and it seems to me that her conclusions are already concluded before actually doing her research, which is going to be interesting.

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But let's let's take a look at some of this portion from the dialogue with on Channel 4

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News from the from the United Kingdom. Serious ones, you're living a lie, according to you've given into a lie.

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That is very much what I've been raised to believe. And I think psychologically that's actually very damaging. Now, what's got lively and said was.

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It's a shame, you know, I fully understand the desires that she's talking about, but it's such a shame that she's given in to these desires and allow them to define her.

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And that, of course, is a vitally important aspect from the

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Christian perspective. Your desires do not define you. Your creator defines you. Your your nature as a creature of God is what defines you.

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God defines you by his decree. You don't define yourself by which of your desires you are going to emphasize and which you're going to allow to define your character.

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And that's basically what he had what he had said. And so now, of course, here comes the psychological damage assumption being that psychological health is what the world defines it to be, not what

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God defines it to be, which, again, one of those issues that, you know.

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Fundamentally, all the forms of Christianity that call itself Christian, it's not really

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Christianity, but all the religion, all the forms of religion that desire to be associated with Christianity that end up overthrowing

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God's moral law will have as their ultimate authority some type of external concept anyways.

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And that's that's what you get here. It makes you feel like you're fighting against yourself. And I think many conservative

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Christians, maybe Scott, too, would agree that it's actually a kind of demonic thing. So you begin to look within yourself thinking, actually, these feelings are not only bad, but I'm being controlled by by the devil.

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I mean, that's what I was told in Nashville. So I think actually it's about coming to terms That's what I was told in Nashville.

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Now, I remember she lived a number of years in the United States and and the earlier description of, you know, the

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Bible belt and, you know, all sorts of stuff like that. And yeah, there there are people like that.

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Well, that will make you do it. OK, well, if that's the kind of of conservative

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Christianity that she's thinking, I mean, there's some great folks in Nashville, but then you also have that form of non -thinking

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Christianity that it becomes cultural. I mean, everybody in my area is a Christian, so I go to church on Sunday.

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That that's a that's a problem as well. But trying to put it into the categories of, well,

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I'm being controlled by the devil. I think you're being controlled by your lusts.

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And if as long as as long as you're being controlled by your lusts, the devil doesn't have to really expend much energy with you at that particular point in time.

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I'm realizing we need to accept our sexual orientation as a God -given gift rather than making it sound like it's a battle between who you're made to be and who you are,

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Reverend. It's a it's a God -given gift. This is, again, standard homosexual language is that who

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I am. God gave that to me as a gift. Now, good luck. Nobody I've ever seen has even started to try to establish that biblically.

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They'll put that in at the end of a book where they've done their best to attack complementarianism, where they've done their best to attack the various texts that speak of the normative decree of God and sexuality and stuff like that.

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But actually establishing the idea that this kind of thing is a gift from God, no one

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I know has even tried to do that. Is Vicky being controlled by the devil? All of us struggle with various different types of temptations.

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It's part of human life. Christians face these same temptations. There's no difference between the challenges that we have or anyone else in the world has.

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But we are called to rise above the temptations and to follow the guidance of God.

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He gave very, very clear, explicit instructions about sexuality. He established the one flesh paradigm in Genesis 127 and 224 that therefore shall a man leave his family and cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh.

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And all sexual activity outside of that covenant that he's established for us to have between one man and one woman is illicit and wrong.

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And just because you have temptations, strong temptations, to go outside of that bond, that doesn't legitimize them.

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I'm a married man. I've been married for 33 years. But being a man, I'm attracted to women other than my wife.

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But I've never given in to those temptations. It's a very different situation though. Let me just ask you one question. If you're a straight person, and people use this argument on me a lot, at least today, and when

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I've argued this before just as a theologian, if you're a straight person and you say, actually it's wrong for me as a

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Christian to have sex outside of marriage, so I'm going to commit to one person of the same sex, that actually gives you the hope of having a life partner, of finding one person and committing to them.

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But if... Now again, where have we heard this? They're all just variations on a theme, but the themes, there aren't that many themes to be developed.

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I mean, sure, you know, there's some, you know,

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Matthew Vines has, you know, put a face on this, Justin Lee, but there's really not much new here other than the, well, don't you think it's better though, that, you know, we can have a lifelong partner to sin with?

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That's better than sinning with all sorts of other people? And it completely misses the point of the fundamental disorderedness of the desires and the giving in to those desires.

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She's already accepted the idea, this is who I am, this is how God made me, and therefore this is the ethical and moral system that must be derived from that.

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There's really no reason to discuss Bible passages with someone who has already made that decision.

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They've already abandoned any meaningful discussion of what the Bible says here.

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They're just going to use the Bible to fit it into a pre -existing scheme. That's all they're going to do, and that's what she's doing.

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And so instead of looking at the biblical concept of marriage, what it's meant to represent, what it's meant to do, how it's meant to function, that's irrelevant.

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Now, I've got my desires, I've decided God gave them to me, though I didn't get that from the scriptures anywhere.

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He made me this way, and so in light of that, this is what I'm going to do, and this is the sections of the

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Bible I'm going to hold to, and the sections I'm not going to hold to, and it's pretty easy to see what's going on here.

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Saying that a Christian gay person actually can't have sex outside of that heterosexual paradigm at all.

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It means there's no hope for them to have a partner. It's a false premise.

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There's no such thing as a gay person. So you do not think that people are born gay? It's the identity you adopt.

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So how come I can't change the way I feel? I believe God has made me the way that he's made me. It's taken me 35 years to come to terms with that, and I believe it's actually part of my

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God -wired identity. Vicki, God has the power to help you to overcome your homosexuality.

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Now, he's going to try to get to 1 Corinthians 6. He's going to get talked over a lot.

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He's going to try to get there. He's not going to be successful in doing so. And it's especially difficult in his situation, because he's on satellite, and you can see you're trying to talk to someone three seconds after they actually said what they were saying, and it just makes it next to impossible, especially on the other end.

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I mean, it may look like he's reacting quickly on his end, but anyway. He's going to try to get there.

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But how many times have I said it? I'm going to lose track, but I'm going to say it again. Fundamentally, this perspective is going to demand.

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That's why we took the time on this program in the past. Or if we haven't, I dreamed that we did, but I'm pretty sure we have.

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We've taken the time in the program in the past to bring up the Greek and to look at the fact that what the world is telling all of us is we have to change the tense of one verb.

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It cannot be what Paul said, such were some of you. It needs to be such are some of you.

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And then we have to take out the adversative. We've just got to get rid of 1

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Corinthians 6 .11. We've just got to get rid of it. Now, liberals do that very easily because once you begin with the assumption that the apostle

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Paul contradicted himself, then you can dismiss anything the apostle

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Paul said. And so 1 Corinthians 6 .11 simply isn't relevant to you.

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That's the easiest way around it. Who knows what way Ms. Beeching will take to get around this particular problem that she has, but it remains a problem.

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That kind of teaching has been so damaging to me. Well, again, if you begin by granting to Ms.

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Beeching her absolute human autonomy to define herself apart from God's word, this argumentation can be used by anyone and is now being used by those who desire to have sexual intercourse with very young people, intergenerational love.

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Those who desire to have sexual intercourse with those who are closely related to them, incestuous relationships, intergenerational relationships, etc.,

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etc. Polyamorous relationships. It's all over the place. God made me to need the love of multiple people.

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And why does it have to be two men with one woman? It can be three women together.

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It can be a mixture of homosexuality and heterosexuality. And it's all just the way

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God made me, and this is God's gift to me. And once you start there, once you've granted that human autonomy, just be honest,

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Ms. Beeching, and say, I don't begin with biblical authority. I reject that. I want to create a new religion, and I'm going to call it

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Christianity, but I'm going to demand that Christianity change to fit me.

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And that's why I have said over and over again, homosexuality strikes me. Those who give in. Homosexuality strikes me as an incredible indication of immaturity.

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It's me, me, me. I get to define everything. It's all about my desires and my feelings and me, me, me, me, me.

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And that's what I'm hearing here. That's what I'm hearing. It's constant. So many people.

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I think it's one of those things that can really psychologically scar people. Well, Vicky, you keep referring to psychology rather than spirituality.

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I think that's your problem. You have adopted the thinking of the world, including the idea that being criticized.

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Now, did you catch that? Completely faux. I mean, this is very purposeful on her part.

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She's trying to make this as science versus the Bible. Enlightened religion versus benighted religion.

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It's science. Folks, if there is anything that doesn't deserve the term science, it's psychology, psychiatry, et cetera, et cetera.

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I'm not saying that there aren't proper observations that people can make of human behavior. But any attempt to describe and treat human behavior that begins by treating man as a highly evolved hominid rather than the fallen creature of God is doomed to failure.

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And any form of psychology and psychiatry that does not begin with Romans 1 is doomed to failure.

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Absolutely doomed to failure. And so here you have a purposeful attempt, very lame, lame attempt on Ms.

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Beeching's part to introduce this, it's us enlightened people versus the benighted evangelicals who still believe the

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Bible. It's sort of sad. Science is not God ordained. God didn't give us a brain and intellect.

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True science and biblical theology are perfectly consistent.

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Okay, so psychology for you does not reflect God's intellect in us as humans. Because I would say that actually psychology is extremely...

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What I'm saying is... ...is that part of what it means to be human is to have a brain and to be intelligent and God gave us that ability.

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So I think that the studies into sexuality are very much important. Don't you care what God thinks, Vicki? I do, and that is actually why

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I'm taking this step today So young people don't have to listen to the kind of teaching that you peddle because it damaged your...

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Can I just... Now that wasn't a response. That was pure emotion.

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That's just... You know, that's all... That's going to end up as a meme someplace. That's all that was.

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Was... I hate what you're saying. Not I refute what you're saying. Not that I can engage what you're saying.

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And so what you're seeing very clearly here we need to keep this clip because here is a woman before her doctoral work and if her if the result of her research is the same thing she's saying now

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I think that might reflect on you know, well she only saw what she wanted to see might have something to do with it might have something to do with it but no, that's not what's going to happen.

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Once her book is out sometime in the future everyone's going to be like oh, this is...

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It's just like Rachel Held Evans with Matthew Vine's book. It's a game changer.

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Okay, whatever. I'm going to ask you a question, Reverend Lively. You helped the

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Ugandan government draft an anti -homosexuality law that includes the death penalty. No, I didn't.

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No, I didn't. I didn't. I've been on your show talking about that before. That's a lie.

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It's a lie. That's a lie. I'm not going to respond to it. My position is the biblical one that God created all human beings, every single person on this planet

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There are many biblical perspectives though. This is what I wanted to get at. There are many biblical perspectives. Listen to the voice of unbelief, my friends.

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Listen to the voice of false teaching even when it's from someone who writes praise songs and is pretty. There are many biblical perspectives.

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What do you mean by that? Do you mean that you can discern different contexts for the

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Psalms then for Ezekiel, then for Matthew? Well, of course. That's not what she's saying. What she's saying is there is no biblical perspective on human sexuality.

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And of course there is. There is an assumed and clearly taught ethic from Genesis to Revelation and the authors self -professedly claim to be consistent with one another on these matters.

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It's painful. Yes, sir? I was going to say, if you look at her tactic it doesn't sound like there is any argument as long as she shouts you down before you get it out.

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She also does seem to know that she has the advantage here. I've done stuff like this and I know that if you are in the interview in the place where it originates, you've got the advantage.

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You've got the audio advantage. You've got the time advantage. She's taking advantage of that. She knows these things.

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She's a smart lady and so she's inappropriately using her advantages at this particular point in time because I don't think her arguments are all that strong.

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At least on this program I'm doing a PhD in theology. There are many ways you can read the Bible. I love the

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Bible. There are many ways you can read the Bible. I love the Bible. Well I have a real hard time with people who say they love the

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Bible and then expend their energy seeking to undercut the message of the Bible and to teach other people that the

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Bible has no unified message. That it is merely a work of antiquity. I would not want to be in Ms.

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Beeching's position when she stands before God someday to answer for these kinds of things but that's what she's doing.

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It's my favorite book. I have a PhD myself and I also have a doctor of law.

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I know the Bible inside and out. Those texts can be read in different ways.

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nothing new here. We've all heard all this before and the only way to deal with it is to once again ask everyone what was

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Jesus' view of the nature of scripture? Is there a consistent way to read all of these scriptures together harmoniously?

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I submit that your way of reading these scriptures tears the fabric of scripture apart and requires us to listen to them in a way that the authors never intended.

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I can listen to these texts of scripture the way the authors intended them to be listened to and they give a harmonious perspective.

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You cannot do that. Let's talk about it. In an interview like this it's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen.

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It does at times make me wonder if we should even bother with stuff like this. You never know.

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Someone might look up a website someone might be helped. It's a difficult thing.

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There are different ways to read the scriptures on women for example.

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Let me finish my sentence. I let you talk. You had the whole set up piece.

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It really doesn't get any further. That's the unfortunate part. I just wanted to go to her saying well you know there are so many different ways.

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I'm working on my PhD and see the meme just pop up there it goes.

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M McCullough ready for memes yes That was pretty quick.

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That was very fast. How do you block people? Anyway Let's absolutely burn the clutch out on the program while I'm here today and move on to some other things.

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I wanted to get to this video talking about changing directions but we keep you guessing here on the program.

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I ran across this video a couple weeks ago when it first came out and now it's all over the internet and there's a reason for that.

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It's a Sudanese cleric and it's from Memory TV and you've probably seen a lot of the memory stuff where they translate from primarily

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Arabic because so many people in far away lands figure they can say things in Arabic and nobody here is ever going to pay attention to them and they're basically right about that.

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Unfortunately. So here's this let's just watch it and then

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I want to there was something that as soon as I saw it I went oh man is this educational let's um you got it up?

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Let's watch this, it's not very long it's 3 minutes long maybe a little less and then we'll talk about it.

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... ... ...

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... ... ... ...

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... ... ... ... ...

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... ... ... ... ...

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... ... ... ... ...

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... ... ...

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... ... ...

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... ...

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... ... ... ... and that is why in the text it is permissible to kill their women and their children.

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This means that America is in an alliance with America and America wants to fight us. The Prophet said,

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America has a duty to kill, to fight, to target, and to target its allies.

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O Mujahideen in Iraq and Sham, No one of you prays

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Taraweeh except in Baghdad. Those who were killed by Al -Rafidah and those who were killed by Al -Murtaddan, he has 72 freedoms and he intercedes for 70 of his people.

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But those who are killed by America and the Crusaders capture them, he has 144 freedoms and intercedes for 140 of his people.

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O Allah, the Mujahideen did what they could. They left their homes and their families.

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They faced danger and faced death. O Allah, the

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Mujahideen did what they could. They left their homes and their families.

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So there you go. A lot of people ask, is there any way to reason with such people?

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Probably not. Probably not. There is such a blindness, such a zealotry, talking about these

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Mujahideen and all they've done.

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Yeah, we've seen what they've done. We've seen the videos of the heads on the spikes of the fences.

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The headless bodies. Yeah, we've seen all that. We've watched as they've doused people and their enemies in gas and then lit them on fire and rolled them into pits.

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Yeah, we've seen ISIS. We understand what demonic people look like and their supporters.

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But the thing is, as soon as I watched this, I rolled my eyes and said,

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I'm going to have to talk about this and hopefully it will be helpful to you as well.

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Because look, for most people in this audience, you watch that and you just go, and the scary thing is, once again, the human tendency on our part is to go, that's every

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Muslim. That's every Muslim. The funny thing is, when we watch videos of Westboro Baptist Church on the street, we don't go, that's every

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Christian. But the world does. So we have to expend the energy to, in our minds, go, okay, this is a form of Islam.

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It's not every Muslim. There are many Muslims who would disagree with this man.

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And we are left wondering, and those that do seem to be considerably less loud than this kind of person.

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Well, that may be partly perception and partly due to who has money and who doesn't and there's other reasons as well.

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But certainly, it's what we're watching in Iraq and Syria.

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And realize, what they're doing to Christians, Yazidis and others is horrific.

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But the vast majority of the violence in those lands is Muslim on Muslim. Most people don't realize that.

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Unfortunately, in their zeal, very often Christians will show videos of people, these are

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Christians. And then the news comes out they were actually Muslims. The point is these people are murderous against anybody.

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And people go, well, what happens if the Muslims take over? From what I'm seeing, they turn on each other.

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Real fast. Real fast. But, that issue aside, people say, is there any way that there can be a conclusion drawn to these things?

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Can it stop? And as soon as I listened to this, I had a real illustration of why that's probably not going to happen.

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Let's look at this beginning part again. We are defending the American tax.

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It has a share in the blood of every Iraqi child. And our

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Prophet says, our Prophet, peace be upon him, says, He says, whoever helps to kill a

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Muslim man, in a single word, his sin has been cleared. Whoever helps to kill a

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Muslim man, in a single word, in half a word. Look at this.

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Here's a fatwa according to the Sharia. The fatwa in the finals.

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Look at that smile. Very happy. Happy, happy.

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Overjoyed. Our Prophet, peace be upon him, says,

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We kill the polytheists, and we harm them, and we harm their women and their children.

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The Prophet, peace be upon him, says, They are among them. Alright, there it is.

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There's the hadith. Now, most of you know, the past couple of years,

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I haven't had to do it for a while, but I made it part of my routine while writing to listen to the hadith.

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I did Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih al -Muslim. Long, long hours of listening to these things.

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And I remember when I encountered this hadith. Weird. I can't remember what

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I'm supposed to get when I go to Target. I'm the guy staying there in the middle of the grocery aisle at Target going, Oh man, why don't

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I write these things down, text myself, do something. You know, staying there going, Okay, was it automotive?

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Was it clothing? Oh man. But, I can remember exactly when

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I encountered this section in Sahih al -Bukhari. I was on Happy Valley Road, westbound, in the dark, between 75th

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Avenue and 91st Avenue. There's a, as you probably know, there's a hill there. That's where I was.

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And why would I remember that? Because, well let me read it for you. And let me read you what the happy Sudanese cleric somehow missed.

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I don't get one thing, by the way. If he's a cleric, how'd he get to be a cleric without knowing this?

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I was overjoyed! Okay, I'm going to just overjoy everybody now.

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Sahih al -Bukhari, Fighting for the Cause of Allah, Jihad, Hadith number 256.

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It's all available online, if you want to look it up, by the way. I'm actually reading from www .searchtruth

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.com if you want to go there to track it down. Fighting for the Cause of Allah, book number 52 in Sahih al -Bukhari.

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Hadith number 256, narrated Asab bin Jathma. The prophet passed by me at a place called

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Al -Abwa or Wadan and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger.

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The prophet replied, they, that is women and children, are from them, that is pagans. I also heard the prophet saying the institution of Himmah is invalid except for Allah and his apostle.

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Which is not relevant to the preceding portion. So there it is! He was asked, you know, if we attack the kafirs, the unbelievers, at night, they can get really confused in the darkness and we might end up killing women and children.

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And Muhammad's response was, they, women and children, are from them, that is the pagans. So evidently, this means you don't have to differentiate between armies and civilians.

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According to... Now here's... Here's the problem. First of all, this is a hadith.

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There are all sorts of questions concerning the rather artificial methodology that's been developed over the centuries for the evaluation of hadith and the study of hadith and these are things that are collected years and years afterwards.

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They have to have isnad chains, but every hadith has an isnad chain and a chain of narrations and so on and so forth.

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So there's all sorts of questions as to whether you can really trust that these words were spoken by Muhammad at all.

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But here's the real issue. And this is what I realized that very early morning, westbound on Happy Valley Road in the dark.

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Here's the next hadith, number 257. Narrated Abdullah, and by the way,

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I would just off the top of my head, I've spent a number of hours listening to lectures on hadith sciences and Abdullah and the next one,

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Ibn Umar, significantly better sources, I would say.

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Asab bin Jathma doesn't Jathama, Jathama sorry, doesn't not a big source here, but anyway.

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Number 227 narrated Abdullah during some of the gazawat of the prophet battles.

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A woman was found killed. Allah's apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.

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That's the next hadith. Very next one. How about 258?

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Narrated Ibn Umar during some of the gazawat of Allah's apostle, a woman was found killed, so Allah's apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

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Now it would strike me that if our

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Sudanese cleric was overjoyed by number 256 that he'd be very sad by 257 and 258.

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Didn't he read them? Didn't he read what's before and after? I realize that in the hadith, sometimes there's almost no connection whatsoever, but you would think maybe.

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And you see, what struck me was this was one of the many, many, many, many, many times that I'm riding along and I'm listening to stuff and I'm going, well, that's awfully self -contradictory.

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How do you put that together? And the response to how you put that together is you have your jurisprudence school and you have your scholars and they emphasize this hadith over that hadith or you've got this kind of person who reads one hadith and ignores the next two hadiths.

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Ah -hadith would be plural. And here's the real point.

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And I say this in interviews and I try to explain this to people because unfortunately we're trying to deal with the world religion while most of us don't want to know almost anything about it, let alone its sources.

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When it comes to the internal battle for the identity of Islam, the sources to which

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Muslims must turn are self -contradictory. They are incapable of deciding the issue.

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The Quran is simply not contextual enough, full enough, rooted in history enough.

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The author didn't, the author was so ignorant of what came before him that it cannot address these issues in a meaningful fashion.

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And so that is why the hadith has been so absolutely necessary to all of Quranic interpretation.

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The problem is the hadith, the entire body of hadith, and we're talking primarily

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Sunni here because you throw the Shiites in and wow, their hadith are really weird. That body of material can be formed into saying anything you want it to say depending upon the presuppositions that you bring to the text.

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So is ISIS a valid form of Quranic Islam?

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Sadly, yes. Is the moderate form of Islam practiced by many more

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Muslims where they're not trying to behead you every day? Can that be transmitted, traced back to a valid form of Quranic Islam?

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Yeah. What do you have to do with each one? What you want to find is what you're gonna find.

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That's the problem. You can't, you know, let's take for example when

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Christianity deals with Mormonism. Can we demonstrate that Mormonism is fundamentally incompatible with the

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Biblical testimony regarding the nature of God? Without any question. Without any question. It's not something to where, well, it's sort of where you start.

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No. The text, you can exegete the text.

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There are too many texts that Mormonism cannot begin to deal with.

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If you want to teach that Elohim is God the Father, Jehovah is Jesus the Son, Elohim had a wife and they gave birth to Jehovah, who is a

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God who grew up on a plant that circles a star named Kolob, and you want to try to fit that into Isaiah? It ain't gonna work.

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It's not possible. You've got to overthrow the authority of Isaiah.

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That's not the situation in Islam. There isn't that level of clarity in the fundamental scriptural source, in the

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Quran itself, and the Hadith. Just read them to you. Look them up yourself. Book 52, 256, 257, 258.

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256 interpreted by this guy to mean don't have to worry about the difference between the armed forces and the civilians.

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Kill them all! Ha ha ha ha! And the very next two?

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Ibn Umar! I know Ibn Umar probably doesn't mean anything to almost anybody in the audience, but if you are familiar with the

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Hadith, you know that both Abdullah and Ibn Umar are major sources of Hadith. Major sources, going right back to the earliest strata.

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Very important. Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children. I don't get the feeling this guy knew about that.

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I don't get the feeling. So how are you handling this stuff to take that phrase, they, the women and children, are from them, the pagans, how do you weigh that against Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children?

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Well, certain schools of jurisprudence and interpretation will take it one way, and then you've got this guy who takes it another way.

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There's your problem. There's your problem. Islam cannot correct itself.

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Cannot correct itself. And when Islam becomes a militarized force with a majority control in a society, unfortunately we know which interpretation becomes predominant.

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So my kind hearted Muslim friends who

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I know do not want to kill me, I just keep asking you, why is it that if your religion became predominant, your views would disappear?

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Doesn't that tell you something? I think it says a lot. I think it says a lot.

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So I feel like saying to Al -Jazuli here, wipe that smirk off your face.

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Because the reality is if a white

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American Christian minister can look up your references, already knew what your references were, but needed to find the specific hadith, and discover that you're reading one part and not reading the next two, how seriously should you be taken?

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I don't think you should be taken seriously at all. Okay, third topic.

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It's been a long, long time. It's been a long, long time. Let me play something for you here.

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See if you recognize the voice. The Muslim is told in no uncertain terms in the

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Holy Qur 'an the last and final revelation of God. He's told in chapter 4 verse 157 وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا سَلَبُوهُ

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That they didn't kill Him and they did not crucify Him.

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وَلَكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ But it was made to appear to them so, that is what they thought they had done, the

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Jews. وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اَخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَقٍّ مِّنْهُمْ And those who dispute therein are full of doubts.

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مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ They have no certain knowledge. إِلَّا تِبَعَ الظَّنِّ The only following conjecture, guesswork, fiction.

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وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِنًا For a surety, they killed Him not. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen.

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Could anyone have been more explicit, more dogmatic, more uncompromising in rejecting the dogma of a faith than this?

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The answer is impossible. Now, those of you who have listened to the program for a lengthy period of time recognize the sonorous tones of Ahmad Didat.

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One of the, at least one of the debates that we hope to accomplish in South Africa and let me thank those of you who have stepped up and helped to meet the need for South Africa.

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That need still exists. But there were a number of people who did respond last week and I thank you for that.

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But I keep that need in front of you for those who maybe forgot or didn't have opportunity.

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One of the debates that we hope to put together in South Africa is on this subject.

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This was one of the many times that Ahmad Didat gave his crucifixion or crucifixion talk.

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Crucifixion with an X and crucifixion, F -I -C -T -I -O -N. He was famous for this.

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In fact, it is my understanding that this was the last, not this one we're listening to, but that the last presentation

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Ahmad Didat ever gave in public before having a stroke and never speaking again was this very presentation.

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Crucifixion versus crucifixion. He was famous for it and I have mentioned many times that even to this day, though he died almost a decade ago, not quite, and was silenced 20 years ago, almost 20 years ago, that Didat remains the most listened to Muslim speaker in the world by the widest range of Muslims as well.

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His videotapes, and still videotapes, VHS tapes, cassette tapes, as well as now on the web, are all over the place.

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And therefore, he has had far more of an impact on the thinking of the average

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Muslim with whom you might have a conversation than anyone else has. That is why we have in the past spent quite some time listening to debates that Didat did.

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That was before I had Audio Notetaker, which makes it easier to do

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Didat because one of the problems with Didat is he will spend 10 minutes saying what most people would spend 30 seconds on.

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He was a storyteller and he was a showman. That was one of the reasons he was so effective. He was a showman. He knew how to keep an audience's attention for a lengthy period of time and that wasn't by being a good scholar.

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It was by being a good speaker. Frequently, the two don't necessarily go hand -in -hand.

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The average Muslim that you're going to speak to, there is a 90 % chance that they've been influenced either directly by Didat or by someone who was influenced by Didat and hence would hold these views and have the objections that he has.

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In South Africa, it's 99%. But worldwide, it would probably be 90%.

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There's a much higher chance that the Muslim with whom you're speaking has been influenced by Didat than by someone like Shabir Ali or by any of the modern

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Muslim apologists simply because of the audience that he developed but also because of his ability to speak.

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One of the debates, as I said, is with a man who was converted to Islam by Ahmad Didat and who is presenting

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Ahmad Didat's understanding of the crucifixion which is what he was just introducing here at the beginning, quoting from Surah 4, verse 157.

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The only ayah in all of the Quran that denies the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

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This presentation is in book form so I will be adding to certain of the points but in this particular presentation he gives a summary of 25 points demonstrating from the

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Bible that Jesus was not crucified. Certainly, if your heart beats to have the desire to engage a

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Muslim in a discussion of the cross, what we're going to do here and continue in the next program will be extremely important for you.

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It should be just tremendously important for you to listen, to listen carefully, to take notes, to download the program, to have the file available, etc.

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etc. because we're going to go through all of those points and I'm going to be inviting my future opponent to listen very carefully so that the debate can be the best debate that it can be.

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Once again, I will be the one who will make the effort to say here's what

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I'm going to say, here's my position, you're defending this man's position, here's all my arguments demonstrating his position is false.

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Obviously, that might result in my opponent saying, can't debate that because you're right. But then again, maybe not.

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We can always hope. But certainly in going through these arguments and also sadly in listening to debates that DDot did, listening to DDot debates is extremely painful.

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Often because of DDot's behavior but also more often because of the really bad performance of those that he chose to debate.

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There were some people who debated him well. They don't emphasize those. A lot of the debates, well,

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I've often said, if you want to just ruin your day and put yourself in a position of feeling horrific frustration, then listen to Akhmed DDot's debates with Jimmy Swigert.

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I have not. I listened to them once. I have not been able to bring myself to listen to them again.

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I may have to do that just simply. I don't know why. I really, I can't imagine why

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I would do that. But I probably should. Yeah, yeah. That's sort of what it would be.

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But he did pick some people to debate that never should have done debates.

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It was pretty bad. Anyways, so we're going to be working through his reasons for the crucifixion presentation.

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And hopefully you'll be able to find that to be very useful. But for that, we are finished for today.

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We'll be back, Lord willing, on Thursday if Phoenix doesn't get washed down the Salt River in the process.

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And we'll pick up with DDot at that particular time. And those of you who heard that, this is a fairly decent recording, unlike some recordings we've played in the past.