Responding to the Republican Case for Public Satanism

People are telling me I'm muted.

So.

Sorry about that minute into the podcast and no one could hear me. I'm glad I have a live chat up so I can see what you guys are saying. So I'll repeat what I just said. First of all, welcome to the conversations that matter podcast.

The Iowa Satanic Display and the Problem of Religious Neutrality

We have.

We'll see how much we have to talk about today. There's a lot we could talk about but I'm in a weird position right now. I'm sitting here in New York, which is known to be a very progressive state, of course and Originally, I I was born actually in California, which the outside of LA a very progressive area.

A lot of my family still there. And I'm in this weird spot right now where I'm kind of grateful to not be from Iowa. It's kind of weird actually do a family that goes back to Iowa, but it's just I Think Iowa as far as I know.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm pretty sure that they were one of the few states in the midterms that the Republicans really did. Well, it's a red state both.

Of the.

Representative bodies in the state capitol are Republican controlled. It's got a Republican governor and And and somehow it also has a satanic display in the in the state capitol there so we're gonna talk a little bit about that today and just Navigating that some of you are probably saying this should be a no-brainer and I agree to a point I I think this should be a no-brainer, but we are contending with an outlook that I think We've all kind of grown used to in a way We haven't had to face some of these challenges not blatantly so at least who would have thought that Satanists would organize and try to get Idols to Satan set up in public spaces and in government buildings.

I mean, that's Not something I ever saw happening even you know when I was young and I'm not that old But that wasn't something that was even on the horizon and now of course This is what we have to contend with.

In fact, I think when it comes to depictions of Satan we have to think about What's happening in the entertainment world because that also affects the political world and our social? reality. You have shows and I haven't watched these shows.

I just understand that the premise of these shows is These are recent shows.

Very.

Pro, I guess Satan in a way like they at least portray Satan as someone who's misunderstood who? doesn't really want evil is just a normal guy very relatable and. One of the shows is called the good omens, which is on Amazon.

There's another one and I thought I had it written down, but I guess I don't. That I think is called Lucifer which was streaming and they did a few seasons until 2021. It was like 2014 to 2021 or something and actually had kind of a some longevity and in this particular Show and I haven't watched it again, but I just read a little synopsis of it.

Satan is This figure who's actually the son of God if you can believe it. I mean, it's total blasphemy and.

And.

Wants to live in Hollywood and doesn't want to fulfill his duty ruling over hell, which we know Satan doesn't do anyway. And so this is these are the kinds of depictions that are happening in the entertainment world.

Where I mean wasn't one was the last time Satan was like truly depicted as a bad character a deceitful father of lies. Accusing people of things like the way he's portrayed in the Bible. Not it doesn't happen really not not much.

I mean it used to happen quite a bit more. So there is this sort of softening not just of Satan but of all villains because we live in a world now that increasingly The people who are in charge of our institutions want to call good evil and evil good, right?

So I think most of us are in this audience at least understand that but Who would have thought you would live in a time where you had to explain that Satan is a bad guy, right? That you're not going to be in an argument with someone who is trying to contend that actually no Satan is a good guy and the Bible got it wrong.

I've been in those discussions. In fact a few years ago. I went to a There was it's called an awareness shop, but it's basically witchcraft and stuff and I'm not recommending anyone do this but a friend of mine and I Went in to witness to the people it behind the counter.

I just remember the guy behind the counter was so nervous when he saw it. So there was a spiritual thing going on there. But I remember this witch and she said she was a witch she came out and she talked to us her only argument seemed to be that she thought all the holidays that.

We.

Celebrate were basically co-opted from them and that meant that they predated Christianity and they're the true religion, which I just said us dumb. Because Christianity goes back to the very beginning.

I mean, it's it's uh, you have the coming of Christ, of course but that's seen as a continuation of something that was already ongoing but Anyway, I remember though. That was one of the things that she said that Satan has been very misunderstood that The Bible got it wrong that Satan is actually a good guy.

I mean it was a Bible say Satan is Presents himself as an angel of light. So we should have come to expect that to some extent. But I think we have a satanic influenced Increasingly satanic influenced world that we live in and we have to figure out How do we approach these things?

So this brings me to what happened in the Iowa State Capitol. I'll read from a story here and then we'll get into this is the mindset that I want to critique which is I Don't I don't really have a much of a name for it.

You could call it a liberal mindset because for those who've been paying attention to the series we did on liberalism. This explains why someone might think this way.

But.

There's a Republican that's defending this satanic monument. Essentially this idol. Not directly but indirectly as you know a part of religious freedom. So we'll talk about that it's kind of like the peak boomer con mindset to be honest with you like that.

Mindset that wants to value neutrality in all our institutions and And and thinks that the other side is also going to be valuing neutrality and they're not interested in that. So let's read from this story as we go through this.

So this is from the Christian Post and It says say to the headline is satanic display in Iowa State Capitol stirs debate among GOP lawmakers. Outrage and disgust. A Satanic exhibit in the Iowa State Capitol has caused a stir among Republican state lawmakers who are debating the legality of allowing such displays on state property.

He satanic exhibit in the Iowa State Capitol has caused a stir. I can just read that Let's see an organization describing itself as the satanic temple of Iowa Erected an altar depicting a silver rams head on a mannequin adorned with a red cape and surrounded by candles and flowers according to locals KKCI Des Moines.

The statue has also holds a red wreath with an inverted pentagram and you can see it right here. There's the pentagram. There's and apparently well, we'll read this in a minute. But they apparently they wanted to have a real I guess rams head and that was forbidden.

So they do have some standards in the Iowa State Capitol, which is good to hear. And here's the gentleman. I'm referring to Iowa State Representative John Dunwell a Republican and Christian pastor who also serves as assistant majority leader told the Christian Post That while he disagrees personally with the display with what the display represents.

He doesn't believe the government should be getting involved. For me, I would rather have an evil blasphemous display or no display at all. All right. So some of these quotes are actually gonna read and I don't see the need to get into any of this.

Much deeper they quote some other people Andrew Walker who is the associate professor of Christian ethics at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary echoed Sherman's Let's see. I haven't read Sherman's.

What did Sherman say? Let's go up here a Fellow state representative Brad Sherman also a Republican and a pastor. So they got more than one pastor who's in the Iowa State Senate which is kind of cool.

Took a different view on the topic arguing in a newsletter last week that there is potential legal recourse by which satanic Displays could be prohibited on state-owned property. The outrage and disgust for the satanic displays widespread but few people think there is Much that can be legally done about it because of free speech and freedom of religion.

However, I disagree he said citing the preamble to the 1857 Iowa State Constitution which established the state on the basis of a belief in a supreme being and dependence on him for a continuation of those blessings.

So.

So he sees a potential legal path and Andrew Walker from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary wrote an op-ed for World magazine Echoing this arguing that there are potential limits to Constitutional freedom and that there is neither a theological nor a political basis for allowing satanic displays on government property.

So look at there. I agree with Andrew Walker. Don't don't always agree with Andrew Walker. But in this case, I think he's on to something now. I want to get into the deeper. What's going on at a deeper level here and That requires me to bring up Some of these tweets by Republican representative John Dunwell, so let me see if I can Do that real quick here in the meantime if you have any questions, make sure that you or just statements make sure you Get them in and I will come back to them later and we will discuss them.

We'll see if I can pull this up for everyone. I think I can. So these are just a series of tweets that This particular representative John Dunwell put out over the last few days and I find them very enlightening to say the least.

This is the initial one he said as many of you may have become aware last week a display was erected at the Iowa Capitol by the Satanic Temple of Iowa. As I have responded to concerns from Iowans about the display I want to share with you how the display came to be in my response.

So, how did it happen he says the Capitol structure falls underneath the control of the Iowa legislature the Department of Administration Services DAS is charged with the management. Currently access for displays at the Capitol are open to anyone through an application process though.

There are some guidelines. They do not discriminate on the basis of religion or ideology. Displays are permitted to be displayed for two weeks. All displays are required to communicate. They are an independent display and not to be associated with the state of Iowa.

The satanic temple petitioned for their display in August and were approved with some modification. They wanted to use an actual goat head and were prohibited from doing so. So like I said, they have some standards apparently there there are some regulations here, you know, you can worship Satan.

You just don't use an actual don't harm an animal to do it. I guess I don't know the Iowa Legislature can set the rules and standards for any display. So let me read that again. The Iowa legislature can set the rules and standards for any display.

Let me read it one more time. The Iowa legislature can set the rules and standards for any display. The I Can't emphasize that sentence enough the current operating principle has been to either allow all displays or none.

All right, so there's another key word operating principle or key term. That I want you to just remember as we go through this the legislature has the power to change if they deem necessary. My observations and response as an Iowan state representative and pastor.

Okay, so so he's saying the Iowa legislature actually can change the rules and they can prohibit this. But here is his opinion. My observation is a follower of Christ. I certainly find a display from a satanic temple objectionable.

Well, at least good right good. It stands in direct opposition to my faith and would be classified as evil not a new experience for me or my family. The Word of God continually warns About the dangers in our world.

In fairness many other religions or non-religious people have the same perspectives about Christianity. My observation as an Iowan and a state representative. I don't want the state evaluating and making determinations about religion.

I am guided by the First Amendment of the US Constitution. My response is a follower of Christ. Display is an inanimate object that has no real power in and of itself. We have nothing to fear.

Okay.

I don't I don't even know where to start. I mean you think of like Gideon right. Like that's just an inanimate object I mean doesn't really matter. I mean how we learn nothing from the last few years with the debate over monuments and what they communicate.

I mean this is happening at a time when Thomas Jefferson statues are coming down in state capitals and you have this being displayed. Oppose the message of the display. It is not just another way to worship the same God.

There are differences that need to be pointed out. The displays glorifies the evil we oppose. The primary response required is prayer. The display itself is an invitation of the work. We have yet to do.

Iowa needs Jesus the display. Provides a teaching example for our families of the difference between the person and work of Christ and that of Satan. Love light. Okay, so I guess there's a positive Point to having this displayed.

My faith is never imposed upon others nor should it ever become a direct part of government. It is always a response to the personal work of Jesus Christ. I don't want to mix kingdoms government is a poor arbiter of religion.

Take full advantage of the opportunities to express our faith in an appropriate displays and programs at the Capitol and then he says My response is a state representative. Review the guidelines to ensure they represent our constitutional rights.

Monitor the number of organizations requesting displays. I don't want the Capitol to be overwhelmed by displays in the future. We may need to find ways to appropriately limit the number of displays and then continue to dialogue with other elected officials and islands on this issue so That is the initial response from Representative John Dunwell of the Iowa State Legislature.

I think I said Senate earlier legislature and This is I mean, it's rich to me because you could probably Justify a lot of things based on this logic. You just if I pornography really I mean it creates a teaching opportunity of What intimacy and marriages versus intimacy outside of God's boundaries?

You could say that You know, we we can't do anything because you know free equal access freedom of speech First Amendment that kind of stuff. You could say it's just an inanimate object, right so there's really no power in it, but you know, of course.

It's an inanimate object, but it has it does have actually power. In fact, there's a reason that Public displays of nudity and those kind of sexual nudity were forbidden in Old Testament times and have been in most Western societies.

That's been recognized as something that it should be forbidden. Why well, it's just flesh and bone, right? I mean sure. There's no like we know as Christians that greater is he that is in us and he that is in the world.

But it doesn't mean that there aren't demonic forces associated with these statues. It doesn't mean that they don't have an effect on the people who view them doesn't mean that it Doesn't negatively affect people.

Of course, it does. Of course it does it sends a message all of these things do.

So.

That's level one. That's level one of Our friend here John done. Well It gets more interesting though he gets some pushback for this and In response to the pushback he gets He says if standing for the up for the kingdom of God and the ways of Christ get me an award I gladly accept it.

So here he's now saying that in defending the the display the the The neutrality that allows a display like this that he is standing for the kingdom of God. Okay, that's interesting.

As.

I continue to hear from Christians on the issue of the satanic temple. Displays at the Iowa Capitol. I found myself shocked. Yeah shocked. I tell you at what I believe is a misunderstanding of basic biblical concepts of the kingdom of Jesus.

So now we're gonna get a sermon from pastor and representative John done well on what the kingdom of Jesus has to say about the Presentation of idols. Recognition of idols. To Satan in public places where he admitted they it doesn't have to actually be recognized.

They can set the rules and they can object to this. So he says this it is not a physical kingdom defined by the boundaries and nationality the kingdom of Christ. It is not a recreation of the nation of Israel United States of America.

It is a spiritual kingdom led by Jesus filled with those who have been transformed by his Spirits presence in their lives. The concepts in the Old Testament regarding the nation of Israel. We are called to incorporate in this spiritual kingdom.

For example, we tear down the places of idolatry in our hearts. We are not called to physically tear down false places of worship. Now if you think about this I mean this logic could lead to we never take any moral stance.

I mean it really could I mean, hey, it's just a spiritual kingdom. It just applies to us. It doesn't actually mean anything on a grander scale than that. It's not like we're gonna use the The third use of the law.

It's not going to be Prohibiting things that ought to be prohibited in the general world. It's just applying to we ourselves.

I.

Mean, I I agree with the first few sentences here. I mean, I think he's on to something I think what Jesus meant something when he said his kingdom is not of this world, but I don't think that meant That he didn't want Christians being involved in any moral way in this temporal world I think there's that you have a temporal world and you have the eternal realm and you have the impending kingdom of God that is right now displayed in the church and in spiritual ways, but Will actually be physically manifested at some point and different eschatological flavors have different schemes of how that works out.

It never meant that. Because there's a spiritual kingdom in which Christ reigns that those who are part of that kingdom should never Let let the moral convictions that come from Christ be displayed in the world.

In fact, just the opposite. We're supposed to be salt and light in the world. So we're actually supposed to be Spreading and and in spreading this message spreading the law of God is also going to have some Temporal world physical manifestations.

He says the battle we fight is primarily spiritual and not physical. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces. Therefore our primary response needs to be physical and not spiritual or spiritual or not physical rather so.

Someone called this pietism, but it's just you know. The whole issue now is just going to be knocked up into this kind of spiritual world where we don't do anything practically to end. Display. I Recognize I live in a pluralistic society that does not share my perspective on Jesus.

He says being the only way I am called to transform that world through the presentation of the gospel. The passing of legislation can never accomplish what the presence of Christ in Lives can do. The late latter is a real change.

The latter is the true kingdom change and no one's arguing with that. That's the thing. None of the criticism that he's gotten argues this and says that. Well, you ought not be sharing the gospel or the gospel is not the true transforming work.

It's it's just laws or something. Like no one's saying that people are saying both and can't can't we like share the gospel and at the same time? Can't we put an end to public indecency like this? Isn't that possible?

He kind of admitted at the beginning. It was possible. The Iowa State Legislature prohibited it from being a display of an actual animal so they can prohibit some things. You know, I wonder why that's an okay prohibition by the way, well, you know, why is that?

Okay? Why is that moral vision? Acceptable but not the moral vision that prohibits the idol altogether. We cannot afford to adopt the ways of earthly kingdoms or earthly tweeters. We we are different.

We choose not to fight our battles in the same way. We are called the humility love and service as an American. I reject the concept of Christian nationalism now, you're gonna hear a lot more about this term in the next year.

But here we have it and this gets to the Application where the rubber meets the road of so many of the things that we've been talking about over the last year. It really does. He's he's linking the objection that that he's getting to his support for a satanic temple being displayed in the Iowa State Capitol to Christian nationalism and He's making saying that it conflicts with the Constitution.

He says as a Christian I reject the concept of Christian nationalism on biblical grounds. And the Bible so it conflicts with the Bible to the satanic temple displays is a horrible display at our Capitol.

It represents an evil that needs to be transformed by the presence of Christ. It can be physically torn down by those who oppose it, but it will not lead to real heart change. Iowa needs Jesus. Okay. No one's arguing this.

Of course, of course you need more than just tearing down the idol. It won't be truly transformed by legislature's laws, but the Holy Spirit no one's saying it that that Look God can use something like this.

God used things like this in the past. God can still use things like this public morality men of courage taking stands. Opposing evil all of that stuff can be used by God. No one's arguing that that is going to Usher someone into the kingdom of God.

Uh in and of itself you need the work of the Holy Spirit and you need an understanding of sin and the grace of Christ um, but It's reinforcing the moral law of God is where this actually starts saying that there is a moral law you violated it.

And the civil government actually has a role in this to promote good and punish evil. When I see an evil display of the satanic temple, I see an invitation to focus on bringing real kingdom change to iowa.

So this is a way, you know, why are you even in the legislature? That's what I wonder like what you could put any issue there plug in any issue, you know. When I see uh prostitution on the street I just see an invitation to bring the real kingdom change or You can put in any I've seen gang violence I see an invitation to focus on bringing the real kingdom change.

We shouldn't use laws to fight these things.

So.

Um, i'm going to take a break. We have more to go more to go through here with representative john dunwell. But some people want to weigh in. Um Jeff reynolds i'm going to come to you in a moment, uh, since I see that you're in the chat.

Um.

But before we get there for two dollars earl starbucks says dunwell is shadow boxing. Dabney quote quote relevant. I think it's probably the the dabney quote. That earl starbucks is referring to is probably the the quote.

Um. About how conservatives in the united states in america, or I think it's american conservatism is the shadow that follows. Uh progressivism to perdition something like that. I'm kind of paraphrasing.

But uh, yeah, I mean that's definitely the case you see this on a lot of issues that the republican party Tends to just kind of follow behind at a distance. Um, but they're not effectively Giving any real opposition to what's happening.

Um.

Let's see, there's some other questions, uh in the chat here. I'm gonna see if I can go to the beginning. There's so many questions, um or comments and questions. And a lot of good ones too. By what standard someone asked?

Um.

The elite elite for five dollars says dunwell defends a satanic display while polish Mp. Braun put out a menorah for being an attack on their catholic nation. I actually saw that video today. I don't know any context and I don't know anything about poland except they're catholic.

But apparently this was in a their capital I guess and their national capital and there was a menorah display. I don't know if this is the first time they've had a menorah display. But there was a menorah display and he went in there and he put the whole thing out uh, and uh.

And so I guess that does serve as somewhat of a contrast. Um, i'm not really equipped to comment on the polish thing though not knowing a lot about their history, but if this came from a place of we're a christian country or a catholic country in this case and Uh, this is not in accordance with who we are our identity where we draw our legal tradition from and all that kind of thing.

Um, you know, I I can understand it to an extent.

Um.

So let's uh, let's keep going here because I I really want to focus on this kind of boomer con mindset, um, and I'm not saying every pun who's A boomer and a conservative just so people know i've done an episode on this and some people still don't understand.

It doesn't mean that everyone who's a baby boomer and a conservative falls into this mindset. This is just a post-world war two liberal mindset, and that's what I want to critique because Uh, that's that's what we're um running up against here.

But before I get to that i'm going to put jeff reynolds on the stage here. Hey, jeff. Can you hear me?

Yes, john. Can you hear me? I can. How you doing? I am great. Thanks. How are you good? I'm, very honored that you're uh giving me any uh air time. That's awesome. Um, and thank you. By the way. I just want to take the moment.

Um, this is an unpaid. Uh, Endorsement, but your work is amazing. Uh, please keep it up just uh, you're you're you're on it and uh, We all need help discerning what's going on even keeping up with uh developments like this.

It's really really great.

Thank you for your work. Yeah. Well, thank you. Jeff. I appreciate it. You've been a faithful supporter and just a very very good encourager and.

Um.

So what's on your mind? Did you have a an angle or a thought about this?

Well, thanks for asking. I I will admit that I am still trying to process it and digest it.

Um.

I just saw an interesting uh interview on on Newsmax with rob schmidt who interviewed a legislator. And then another person who was I guess actively engaged in, you know civil activities in iowa about this and they had different points of view, um, but it was quite interesting to hear the Uh, the legend the one who's involved in the legislation Uh involved in the government, uh senate, uh state government.

Who clearly from what I from what he was saying he convinced me that he was a legitimate, you know christian yet he was. Saying that he didn't think that there should be you know, this should be taken down or it should be prohibited.

Um, he's you know, yeah, it's very strange. It's a hard thing to get my arms around that but the way he you know what he what he basically said was that You know, maybe this is a romans 8 28, um kind of um, Phenomenon, but he said that The amount of people who came there were so many more people who came to the state capitol to pray Legitimate, you know real christians who were because of this because of that thing being there.

Um than he'd ever seen before he said he really felt like there was momentum that built. Because of it i'm not i'm not saying it's in any way a good thing but that was there but I mean to me, it's just a it's it's not so it's a it's a very scary sign of the times that we are in um, and the advanced end stage, um status of our Civilizational social spiritual decline in this country that really started in the 60s pretty pretty, uh, Pretty fast and it's just been accelerating since then you know, so I just I can't really say that that this kind of thing surprises me as much as it just disgusts me disturbs me.

Uh and saddens me.

When you cross a barrier or a boundary that has yet to be crossed or hasn't been crossed many times. Generally, uh the people who like what they had before the status quo, which was more christian will get upset about it.

But then it gets normalized right and that's kind of the danger here. It's like yeah I'm sure that when in iowa a red state when this boundary is crossed people are up in arms a little like This can't be happening here.

Yeah, then when it's left up and then if it happens next year, then are you going to get the same crowd? People get used to it. Yeah, and um, and and that's that's the danger of these things, uh to some extent.

Yeah, um, yeah amazing. So so was uh, john dunwell was he on this particular program? You were watching or it was another state legislature.

You know, I wasn't I I couldn't tell you the guy's name, but okay. He um, I think he had a bow tie on he was he was you know. He was a very intelligent kind of guy looking. Maybe 60s, uh type of thing.

Yeah, but yeah, you know, I I mean look if I think if any hopefully if any of us in this chat in this event were In a position, you know to have some say in the matter. We would oppose it with everything we had.

I mean, I certainly would. I would not I I think we're in a different I mean i'm not I don't understand, you know politics and history the way you do but I think I understand enough of it to to be able to say that.

You know, I believe we're in a different ball game now I I know that you say this on your podcast a lot that we're You know, we're in a different situation than we were it's like this is not peacetime anymore.

This is not you know. We can all get along democrats and republicans can generally work together because they all are on the same team ultimately that really isn't the case anymore and You know and and christians are just not going to be tolerated anymore by the elites even if our constitution protects us I mean that really only protects us once you get to the supreme court and very few people get there I mean, so, you know the left can get away with a lot they can make a do a lot of damage.

But I see your point about about like, you know, they're pushing the envelope with something like this, right? Then you know the satan clubs in um in schools. You know, this is just like pushing the envelope further and further and further.

Until there is no there is no restraint and that's a scary thing. Yeah. So yes, we would I think we should all we're all called at least I feel. And you know, not that I have any any any involvement with something like this locally right now, but I think we're all called to um, you know aggressively stand against this kind of thing because it's just an absolute abomination and Shouldn't be tolerated in any civilized society not even a pagan one.

Yeah, the question is are any standards permissible anywhere at this point? Like can you? ever impose a standard or is that just a violation of your christian Commitment to the spiritual kingdom of god and your and the constitution and neutrality in the public square.

Because what they're doing now is they are taking advantage of all the things that we've tried to put in place to protect religion to protect christianity primarily. By saying that we you know, like the equal. Um access act in the 80s to make sure that uh on a Like a high school campus or even in a college campus um that Religious groups cannot be discriminated against they have equal access No matter what religion they are.

But of course the people who passed that were primarily thinking about christianity and now you have these groups that want to then use that. Against the very people who were trying to put it up as a shield and so, um.

So so I think the discussion one of the discussions that has to happen is whether or not the neutrality is a good idea. Of just saying that anyone No matter what you believe and who you are has equal access to um public spaces in this case and displaying their message.

Uh, I don't think if it was and I you know, if your kids are in the car probably not this late. Maybe turn on but if it was a big phallic symbol, right, would that change it? Would that be different? You know, why not?

I don't think there's any reason that you would have to prohibit that if you're not willing to prohibit a statue to satan, so It's just um. Like whatever argument they bring up to try to say. Well, that's not acceptable.

You could bring up all their counter arguments against christians who are concerned about this and it would be the same ones. So.

Mm-hmm. Um.

Anyway, yeah. No, it's good. Hey good good point and uh good to hear from you. Jeff um, was there anything else that you you had in mind or.

Well, no, I I mean I think um. You what you've made you've made the point. Uh a bunch of times i'm. Sorry, I don't have the video on but I I just couldn't only get you on my phone and my phone's not i'm in a not in a good position place right now, but otherwise I would have the video on but.

Um.

You've made the point, uh, which I think is a very important one about.

Um.

Public uh involvement in.

Uh.

Governmental type things on the local level and I really Agree with that. I mean, I think that's the only sort of the only leverage that most of us are going to have in these days and You know, there are a lot of different ways you could do that.