WWUTT 1975 Q&A The Song Surrounded, Couples Attending Different Churches, Women Leading Worship, Pronoun Wars, Aliens

Corporate Worship and the Song “Surrounded”

Why is a song like This is How I Fight My Battles not good for corporate worship? If a husband is a cessationist and a wife is a Pentecostal, can they attend different churches? And can a woman lead worship?

The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ, that it may dwell in you richly and we may teach one another in all wisdom. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .wutt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. How goes it? It goes well.

Another Friday episode, responding to questions from listeners. Whoop, whoop. And you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com. Yeah. So in the last several Friday episodes, I mean, this probably goes back a few months even.

Yeah. But I've been reading portions of Psalm 68. We're in the last section of Psalm 68 now. Right. Sing to God, O kingdoms of the earth. Sing praises to the Lord, Selah, to him who rides upon the highest heavens, which are from ancient times.

Behold, he gives forth his voice, a voice that is strong. Ascribe strength to God. His majesty is over Israel and his strength is in the skies. O God, you are awesome from your sanctuary. The God of Israel himself, give strength and might to the people.

Blessed be God. Amen. And with this charge to sing to God, O kingdoms of the earth, that actually leads me to our first question here. Okay. So this was on Twitter about a month ago or so. I can't remember how long ago this was, but I made fun of the song, This is How I Fight My Battles.

Uh-oh. You made fun of it? How many words is that? This is how I fight my battles. That's half the number of words in the song. Oh, that one. Okay, okay. Yes. Sure. It says that over and over and over and over again.

And over and over and over. And then it turns around and says, I feel like, I may feel like I'm surrounded, but I'm surrounded by you. That's the next half of the song. And then you repeat that over and over and over and over again.

Okay. That's it. That's all the lyrics in the song. Well, you won't forget it. Yeah. Now, there's something that pushed back on me when I was making fun of that being all the lyrics in the song, and they said, no, no, no, no, no.

You know, look at this in show to lyrics page where there were additional lyrics. Those were added later. Oh, okay. You can find a video between the original songwriter and the pastor, who I believe is actually her husband, if memory serves.

But anyway. Okay. The writer of that song and the pastor of the church where it first made its debut. And they say in that interview that the song was only like 15 words long. So any phrases that you've heard in addition to that were added later on.

Gotcha. That was not the original song. It really was that repetitive over and over again. And the most popular version of the song, which is put out by Michael W. Smith, is just that. It's just those 15 words repeated again and again and again.

So Alan from Texas emailed and he said, hey, I have a question about songs like how I fight my battles. It's actually called Surrounded, technically. That's the name of the song. But anyway, I'm very conflicted because I understand that it's not scriptural.

The song itself is not scriptural. But I also see how it's not wrong in what it says. I understand that it's very emotional, but are emotions wrong to use? I am absolutely against what Bethel, Elevation, et cetera stand for.

I'd love to be able to get an answer because I'm conflicted and I do appreciate that music when I'm listening to it on my own. But I don't think they're appropriate for corporate worship. So like the whole church singing them together.

Yeah, okay. Alan goes on to say, do you think that you can help me defend against that type of music? Another issue related to that is all the Hillsong music. Their preaching from the pulpit is trash, but their songs can be theologically accurate.

Last question, on what basis do we think it's not okay for corporate worship? When someone asks me that, I would say pretty much what you said about Bethel and how they suck people into their terrible theology and teaching.

Well, I think Alan, that you really kind of answered your own question. You appreciate that music listening to it on your own, but you don't think that it's appropriate for corporate worship. I mean, I can think of all kinds of songs I like,.

I would never sing in church. Right, okay, but maybe he's asking like the why part of it. Like, why is it that I feel this way? I can't quite put my finger on it kind of thing.

Why is it bad? I think the most basic question to ask is, what is this song saying? Okay. What is being communicated? And so we're talking about why it's bad for corporate worship. We're not talking about why it's bad for you to listen to it in your car.

Because again, consider the lyrics. This is how I fight my battles. Now the irony about that is the singer never tells you how she fights her battles. Okay. Now again, there's different versions of the song where they've added lyrics.

I did see one, I can't even remember what the bridge was, but she sings the bridge and then she says, and this is how I fight my battles. So it's like they added a bridge to explain, this is what I mean by, this is how I fight my battles.

But in the song, it doesn't ever tell you that. You're just singing over and over again, this is how I fight my battles. But the singer never tells you how she fights her battles. I wonder if she got tired of it.

And had to add some more so she could do it more often. Are you okay over there? Yeah, I'm just joking.

That was funny. Oh, it was funny. Because we're all tired of it. So yeah, maybe she got tired of singing it. Nope. I'm just saying. Nobody has to sing that song more than she does. Right? Now, okay, so I watched the video.

Like I said, I watched the interview between her and her pastor and she talks about how that song was written in a, just in a jam session with the band. Okay. And then as the pastor was preaching a sermon, he's wrapping it up saying, you know, I'm just gonna have the band come up here and play something, whatever's on their heart or whatever.

And they started messaging each other on their phones or on their iPads, whatever they were using. Right. And saying, how about Surrounded? Wanna give it a shot this time? So they had already played it in rehearsal.

Sure. And now they were rolling it out here before the congregation, but it was just the same words sung over and over and over again.

So maybe it was for soundcheck.

Yeah, it was just like a soundcheck song. I mean, you never know how many. I don't know, that was interesting though. How many of those repetitive songs just came out of that, just came out of a soundcheck jam.

I don't know. But anyway. You never know. But that statement, again, coming back to that statement, how I fight my battles is never explained. And then the next statement, it may feel like I'm surrounded, but I'm surrounded by you.

I mean, those things are both true. It's really not saying anything. So you're kind of filling in the blanks. Yeah.

It's like, I'm gonna put something vague out there and you're gonna think it's true. I mean, it's It's gonna be true for you because it's your head filling in the blanks.

And it's witty. It's witty to say, it might feel like I'm surrounded, but I'm surrounded by you. You know? Yeah. That sounds like one of those framed pictures you find at Hobby Lobby or something. It sounds like that.

I get the appeal. I understand. It just doesn't work for corporate worship.

Haven't you said before that if it could be about a boyfriend or girlfriend or significant other or whatever, that it's not okay?

Yeah, that goes back to, what is this song actually communicating? Right, right. Who is getting the praise in this song? Because references to my and I'm surrounded, but I'm surrounded by you, there's more reference to the self in that song.

The only reference to God is you. The word you at the end of that second phrase, but even then God's name isn't said. Nothing about his attributes, nothing about his gloriousness, nothing salvific being explained.

You know, no real, it's no theology. There's, yeah.

You're not really worshiping at that point. Yeah, right, right. It's just enjoying the song.

You're just enjoying the song. And like Alan said, he can fill in the blanks with that song. It can be meaningful to him. Good to worship too in your car. Fine, I'll give you that. But for corporate worship, yeah.

What is this communicating? Would someone who is an unbeliever understand this song is giving glory to God? No. And I'm even basing that question off of 1 Corinthians 14, 23 to 24, where the apostle Paul is talking about, he's telling the church not to be speaking in tongues in the corporate gathering because nobody understands what you're saying.

If an unbeliever comes in and hears you doing that, he's gonna think you're out of your mind. But if you are saying things that are articulated and understood, well then he's gonna be convicted by the word that you are saying.

And so we have to think about that even with the songs that we sing. There's a message being communicated in the song, just like you hope, there's a message being communicated in the sermon as well. And though the songs we sing may not be explicitly scripture, a lot of them will be, but not explicitly, they still need to be based in scripture.

They need to be aligned with the Bible. You don't wanna be saying things in your songs that are contrary to what we're gonna be reading in God's word. And there's a lot of them that are popular. Yeah.

So the song is very self-centered. Four of those words are I or my, only one word seems to indicate this song is directed to God, but even then his name isn't used. So what's the emphasis here? It really seems to be on the self and not on Christ.

Yeah. Now it's not entirely wrong to have something of a self-centered song. I wanna be careful with the way that I say that. Okay. Okay. But just think of like the hymn, be still my soul. Oh, okay. Be still my soul, the Lord is on your side.

Now that comes from the Psalms because David prayed, be still my soul. Right. So there can be a way that that song, it is self-inflective, but still pointing to God, still giving glory to God. The Lord is on your side.

Yeah. Right. There's still being more said in those two lines right there than in the two lines of surrounded. True. That is true. Now, I don't openly talk about my music choices because music is subjective.

It's what I like. You know, I've got music that I like and I'm not dishonoring God with what I listen to. But there are others that would probably frown upon certain things that I listen to. So I don't really talk about my casual music choices.

It's nobody's business. I like it.

You don't have to like it. And it's one thing that people are passionate about too. Yeah. Oh yeah. You really like what you really like and you really don't what you really don't. And when somebody tells me,.

Hey, listen to this song. Oh man, I always dread that invitation. So I'm like, what if I hate this song? You're gonna be supremely offended, which I saw in the responses to my criticism of surrounded.

Yeah. And there were people that really didn't like that. Now, as we've been talking about this song, maybe you have no idea what song we're talking about. And that's just fine. Okay. I was like, you're not gonna play it, are you?

Well, I can't. We would get a copyright strike if I did. True. But I did do a video on this. Oh. So let me play the video and then we'll go to our next question. All right. It's gonna be okay, babe. It's gonna be okay.

All right, how's that? Yeah, how? Okay, that's enough. Please stop. This song doesn't say anything and there's eight minutes of this? Why is the consumer-driven church so taken in by commercially sold ambiguous praise and worship choruses that can mean whatever you want them to mean?

All right. So I probably answered my own question there. This is how I fight my battles with God's word. Ephesians six, starting in verse 11 says, put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the spiritual forces of evil. The scripture goes on to describe the belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shoes of readiness given by the gospel of peace.

Take up the shield of faith to extinguish the flaming darts of the evil one and put on the helmet of salvation. But in this ensemble, there's only one weapon, the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God.

Hebrews 4 .12 says, for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

We read in 2 Corinthians 10, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God when we understand the text.

It kind of reminds me of the approach of the prophets, you know, nowadays, where it's like, I'm gonna say something vague and it's gonna pertain to you.

Yeah, you're talking the false prophets.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the false prophets. Yeah, what did we call that?

It was Costi Hinn and I were referring to that as a shotgun prophecy. Yeah, exactly.

You're just gonna shoot at something. Yep, and it's gonna make sense to somebody. Yeah, it's a scattershot. It's gonna hit a couple of things and, oh, see, there we go. And it means something totally different, you know, if they ever got together.

Yeah, it is kind of abstract when you think about it. Those kinds of worship songs that are written in that way aren't focusing on anything directly, but then your mind fills in the blanks and I've referred to this as the Mad Lib theology.

Oh, okay, yeah. Is it Mad Lib or Mad Gab? What's the one where you're filling in the blanks, like write a noun here, write a verb here? Mad Lib. That is the Mad Libs. Okay, Mad Gab was a game. Okay. So anyway, yeah, so you have that word puzzle thing where write a noun here, write a verb here, give a color here, and then you go back and you read it and, ha, ha, ha, that's funny because you called me a blue banana, you know.

But the thing with those songs and some of this theology that surrounds it kind of turns out the same way. You might think that you're hearing something more profound than you're really hearing. Right.

And it's because in your mind, you're filling in those theological blanks with your better theology against their bad theology. Right. Yeah.

But as long as they make it vague enough, it applies. Yeah, right.

Yeah, you still need to be discerning enough to recognize what songs are okay and what are not okay. Speaking of music, we got another question about music here. This one comes from Becky. Me? Nope. I like your name.

B-E-C-K-Y. Awesome. Becky spells hers B-E-K-I. Yep. And yeah, because we've talked about that. We have. The names that'll come in, you got it right. Yeah. Anyway, Becky says, hi y 'all. My husband is a pastor of a small reforming church.

For years, the music has been led by one of the other elders and his wife. Or if he is not able to lead due to other duties, his wife will simply say, turn to hymn number and start the hymn with the pianist.

Recently, there have been questions as to if the wife is leading worship by saying the hymn number. The piano and leader are off to one side of the congregation, not in front. What are your thoughts? Looking forward to meeting you at G3.

Yay. Yeah, G3 conference just a little more than a month away now. Yep. It's coming up fast. We're looking at that in Atlanta in about four or five weeks. Five weeks, I think is how long we've got here.

Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, five weeks. You can find out more details by going to g3min .org. All right, so a woman leading worship. Is that okay? What have we done in the past, babe?

For the most part, it's been men. Yeah, usually. Okay, going back to our church in Kansas, we had a husband and wife duo who were leading. And sometimes he just accompanied and she sang. Right. If you've ever seen the Gettys in concert, that's the way that goes sometimes too.

Keith and Kristen Getty, he'll play piano and she does most of the singing.

But you're talking in concert there, not in worship. Yeah, it's been worship too.

Even at ShepCon. Okay. So Shepard's Conference, which is all men. Right. Yeah, there's Keith Getty playing the piano and Kristen is leading the singing. Okay. So is that acceptable? Now that I've framed it in the context of John MacArthur's church, there's a lot of people going, yeah, that's okay.

Of course. It happened to John MacArthur's church, so that's all right. I mean, you really just, you need to discuss this as a church. Yeah. You need to decide what your convictions are regarding this.

And it is good to discuss it because you're asking the question. Since you're asking the question, it's obviously something that's on your heart. Yeah. It's something that you're thinking about, are we doing this in the right way?

Are we honoring the Lord? Are we following what's in scripture? Which is great. Yeah. That's a great approach to everything. This is one of those things that's not plainly articulated in scripture. Now, some will say that a woman should not have an upfront presence like that because of the prohibition that's put on women in authority in 1 Timothy 2, beginning in verse 11.

A woman must learn quietly in all submission, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was formed and then Eve, and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and fell into trespass.

Now, of course, this passage in context is directly referring to women cannot have a position of eldership or cannot have a teaching, can't even function in that position as a teacher over men. Right.

When you go from here into chapter three, you've got the qualifications for overseers and deacons. So what you have to decide as a church is if that prohibition would also apply to a woman. Do you think, sorry, well, apply to a woman leading worship?

There you go. Do you think that her standing up there and leading the songs is the same as a pastor standing in the pulpit and preaching the sermon from God's word? It's really what you have to decide.

I'm not telling you one way or the other. Right. I think different churches are gonna have different convictions about that. Right.

And it also depends on where you're at in your culture, like cultural things, I don't know. Cultural things like in your church? No, like where you're from, maybe some things are more acceptable. Like somebody might be okay with a woman leading worship.

In one state, but not another. Well, even around the world, I'm thinking. Okay, okay.

Oh yeah, like culturally, how does this culture consider men and women? Right, right. That's a good point, especially when you're talking about something that is as tertiary a matter as this.

Right, there's no point in stirring the bucket.

Right, but at the same time, stirring the bucket. Stirring the pot? Stirring the pot, there you go, yeah. I don't think it matters what. It doesn't matter what container it's in. It's a vessel. A vessel.

Anyway, nonetheless, don't let the culture dictate on this, but understand what God's word says. Very true. So that's still primary. We're following what the Bible says on this. Don't let the culture dictate it, because in some cultures, it's gonna be acceptable for a woman to stand up and lead the teaching and not a man.

And then there are some cultures where women aren't to speak at all. They're just supposed to sit there and be quiet. And some have interpreted this passage that way, when it's just talking about her function in a pastoral role, that she can't be filling that role.

It's not saying that women can't be talking in church at all, although some people do go that far. They do. And say, woman shouldn't be talking. Anyway, yeah, all of that aside, so you just have to think of it in terms of what your church is convicted with regarding these things.

I don't personally see it as the same. A woman standing up and saying, turn in this hymn number, the pianist is playing the music, and she's helping to lead the congregation to be in unison in singing.

I don't see how she's fulfilling the same function as a pastor.

Yeah. What if they share a Bible verse or something while the people are flipping pages?

Yeah, you gotta talk about that too. Gotta discuss that. Does she now have teaching authority? Which she's not really teaching, is she? She's just reciting a Bible verse. Right. Or, because she's in that position and we're learning from what is being said, is she now assuming teaching authority?

Yeah, you just have to talk through it. Lots of discussion. Yeah. And so as a church, now are we okay with a woman standing up there and leading worship? But what do we do if she just in a moment decides, I wanna quote a scripture?

Do we stand up and go, no, no, no, you can't do that. You know? Awkward. That's why you gotta talk through these things. You have to come to an understanding. Now, like you said, at our church, whether it was the one that I pastored in Kansas or now here in Texas, there have been largely men that have led the worship.

Right. We had a husband and wife team at our church in Kansas. I'm pretty sure they still have that at that church, even in our absence. At Providence Baptist Church. I don't wanna say that about them if it's not true, but I think they still do.

I think they still have a husband and wife team there. Here, Andrew is our worship pastor. And so he leads everything, choosing the music, selecting the band, things like that. But he will often have one of the gals in the band leading a song.

Yeah. It's her voice and Andrew might even be singing harmony behind her or something like that. That's perfectly acceptable. We don't have any problems with that. Yeah. Oh, it's wonderful. The music at our church is fantastic.

Love it. So yeah, as a church, you just need to discuss those things and come to a decision on it. Becky, I think that your church is going to give you better insight into the answer to this question than I can.

Very true. But at least I think we've given you some things to think about. Sure. Talking to this Becky, not you, Becky. Yeah. Yeah. That might get a little confusing. All right, next one is from T. Just the letter T.

Just the letter T, okay. Hello, Pastor Gabe. I came across your video about Calvinists marrying Armenians. He says Armenians, but I think he means Armenians.

Yeah, Armenian, isn't that a country? Yeah, that's a Or people from a country?

Right. That's not what we're talking about. Okay. Although I have a really funny story about sharing Calvinism with an Armenian. Oh no. I did that on my blog. It was my very first ShepCon. That was in 2017.

I thought he said that he was Armenian. And so I'm going through the five points of Calvinism with him. But no, he said Armenian. Well, don't I feel like the fool? Anyway, so this goes back to last week.

This was our Q &A last week when we had the question about a Calvinist or somebody who's reformed marrying an Anabaptist. Right. Okay. And I said my immediate response to that would be don't do it. Yes.

But you just want to give it some more time. You want to have some time to talk things through. Of course, I'm saying that. I'm saying my immediate response is a Calvinist should not marry an Armenian, but I did.

So, you know, me being on the Calvinist side married Becky, who was on the Wesleyan side, which is very Armenian. Like at its root is Armenian. Yeah. So anyway, he says that he saw this as a video. Our podcast actually does get formatted into video and posted to YouTube.

It's the WWUTTEXT page. Oh, cool. So you could also be watching slash listening to the podcast that way. You can't see us. It's just audio. No. But it's also on YouTube. So that might be what T means.

He saw that video and listened into our discussion about a Calvinist marrying an Anabaptist. But anyway, T says, I'm in a similar situation. Neither of us were spiritually mature at the time, but in short, after getting married and studying the Bible, I've come to believe in reformed theology and I'm a five point Calvinist.

Previously coming from charismaticism. Okay. While my wife, with the Pentecostal charismatic background has those beliefs. She loves Hillsong, Casa de Dios. I don't even know what that is. G12 vision, et cetera.

And is a one point Calvinist. Yeah, just, you know, either Armenian or semi-Pelagian. Okay. Because there isn't really a one point Calvinist. Although I'm curious when you say that, what's the point that you're talking about?

But anyway. Yeah, which one point? This has caused division in our marriage as even such things as reading the Bible together. It's causing issues as we are interpreting the passages differently. We even attend different churches now.

We've been through marital counseling, but sadly we may both be too convicted in our conscience and prideful not to change our beliefs. In the video, you mentioned that you would not recommend that two people from such opposing beliefs marry.

And I would not want to have children as my wife and I would teach our kids to disagree on core beliefs. I don't want to consider divorce, but we are both hurting spiritually and unable to grow. Please pray for us that we would find a solution.

What would you recommend? Well, yes, I would tell you you shouldn't consider divorce either. I agree. And even if it's a sort of a situation where your wife might actually be unsaved, so she's just after the feels, maybe this charismaticism is so deep that it's more pagan than it is Christian, and maybe your wife isn't saved, you still can't leave her.

The apostle Paul giving this instruction in 1 Corinthians 7 that even if an unbelieving spouse resolves to live with you, then you should remain with that spouse. But if they leave you, then you are unbound to that person.

So you need to consider that. But I'm not speaking of this as if she's unsaved. I'm looking at this as two persons with different theology, but you both profess to love Christ. One may be more mature than the other.

Of course, you express it's difficult for us to grow, and yeah, that's certainly true. 1 Peter 3, 7 talks about if there is strife in your marriage, then even your prayers are hindered. So yeah, I can't understand why there would be that lapse in growth, or everything's kind of become stagnant.

I don't know what else to tell you, T, other than that you can't give up on reading the Bible together, and you can't not attend the same church together. Did I say that right? You can't not attend the same church together, and it's probably double negatives, I suppose.

You need to attend the same church together, yes. And maybe you can find something that feels a little bit more like neutral ground, at least as far, because really the big difference here isn't so much Calvinism versus Arminianism.

It sounds to me like it's more cessationism versus continuism. That sounds to me like the bigger issue. So cessationism is the understanding that the miraculous sign gifts that were given to the apostles authenticating the word that they said was the word from God, those miracles have ceased.

That's cessationism. Okay, the sign gifts, things like healing, prophecy, even speaking in tongues. They're not in use today. Continuism is the idea that those things are continuing, and they're even continuing with the same regularity that we see in the book of Acts.

I would say, I would actually argue they think it's happening with more regularity than it does in the book of Acts. But any charismatic church that you can go into on a Sunday morning, you're gonna find those kinds of gifts practiced.

You know what I mean? Is there a way that the two of you can agree on just attending a Bible church together? Doesn't have to necessarily be Calvinist, but you're finding a place that the two of you can go together where the cessationism versus continuism isn't getting in the way.

And maybe you're still growing in God's word while handling some of those other things outside of the relationship that you have at church. Or even growing with those saints, and maybe those saints are helping to kind of walk you along in those things.

I don't know. You do need to talk to your current pastor. So T, you need to tell your pastor about this. Right, right. And I would hope that your wife, likewise, is raising concerns with her pastor, though if it's extremely Pentecostal like that, I can't imagine what kind of theology is coming out of that council.

Yeah. But you do need people around you who know you. Like your best answers are not gonna come from a couple of podcast hosts.

Right, we can only like vaguely help you. I'm glad you found the video.

Yeah. I hope what you heard in the answer that we gave last week was convicting to you in some way, was guiding, and I would think that's the case because you've decided to email us.

I think it would be, I think you're right on target of finding a good solid church that is middle ground for them both because they need to find that middle ground in their marriage. And so in the Bible verse that says that the more mature need to...

Bear with the failings of the weak.

Yes. We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves, but our neighbor for his good to build him up. So that's Romans 15, one and two.

That should be your approach to your wife right now is to be more patient with her. Yeah.

You're gonna be the one who's being more sacrificial for two reasons, for two reasons. Number one, because you might be the more spiritually mature one between the two of you. And secondly, because you're the husband.

Yeah. Exactly. You have to lay down your life for your wife as Christ did for the church. You might have to make the better sacrifice for her benefit on her behalf. Now, when I say that you're sacrificing for her, I'm not saying you have to go to her church because her church might be really bad and it would not be good for either one of you to encourage her to continue in that kind of teaching.

Don't indulge that. Yeah. So as the leader in your home, as the head of your household, you do need to take charge, not as like an overbearing authoritarian, but you're the head. So what does the head do for the body?

It's providing for the body. You know, the head feeds the body. The head is the control center for the body. Yeah. So thinking about what you've got to do to pull your wife out of this bad theology and help her to grow in some solid things, even though the two of you have such radical disagreements on some pretty critical things.

Yeah. But you still have to be thinking about what you can do as a husband to love your wife as Christ loved the church. Let me read that passage from Ephesians 5, beginning in verse 25. Husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and blameless.

So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ also does the church.

In a real spiritual sense, you have to be thinking about how are you nurturing and cherishing your wife? Nurturing, well, nourishing really is the word. But yeah, what are you feeding to her to help to grow her in the word?

The two of you still need to be reading the Bible together. Yes. And there are ways that you can read scripture where cessationism versus continuism doesn't have to come into that. Oh yeah? Yeah, I mean, why?

Why would a cessation versus continuous belief have to come into just reading the Bible together? Well, I was just asking.

Yeah. Do you have a, like, you know, sometimes whenever you're interpreting the Bible and doing your own Bible study, you're gonna apply it more from your angle. And you're talking about them going to a church that's more neutral.

Is there like a Bible study that would be more helpful for her to kind of branch away from, slowly branch away from the charismatic?

Yeah, it's called opening your Bible and reading it. Ah, well, that's great. Well, you just gotta open your Bible and read your Bible. You can listen to this podcast. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I'm doing New Testament study.