October 12, 2020 Show with Rev. Ricky McCarl on “The Anglican Identity Crisis”

The Program’s Opening and the Iron Sharpens Iron Mission

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 12th day of October 2020.

And my guest for the very first time comes to me by a very strong and enthusiastic recommendation of my dear friend David Waterman, who is a field associate at CBMC, which stands for the, what does it stand for?

Christian Businessmen's Connection. CBMC, Christian Businessmen's Connection in central Pennsylvania. And Dave said, you know who you should get on the program? You have to get this really fascinating man who is also an excellent preacher and teacher, Reverend Ricky McCarl on your show for an interview.

Reverend Ricky McCarl is a hospice chaplain and also the vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And today we are going to be discussing the Anglican Identity Crisis. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Ricky McCarl.

Thank you.

It's great to have you on the program. And by the way, I want to, before I move on to our discussion with Reverend McCarl, before I forget, I want to give a plug to the Christian Businessmen's Connection in central Pennsylvania by letting you know where you can contact them if you are a Christian businessman and you'd like to find out either the closest Christian businessmen connection to where you live, or you might even live in the South Central PA area and you want to connect with these very same men at the Central Pennsylvania Christian Businessmen's Connection where David Waterman is.

Their website is centralpa .cbmc .com. That's centralpa .cbmc .com. Well, before I move on to our summary of your salvation testimony, which is something that we do here as a tradition on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio whenever we have a first-time guest, tell our listeners about Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Sure, and we've...

Wow, that's quite a trip from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. That's so you're still in that same regional jurisdiction for the Pittsburgh Diocese.

Yes, unfortunately, we're the only Orthodox Anglican parish. I should take that back. There is an Anglican province of Lancaster, but the APA, and I'm good friends with the priest over there.

Now, I have a listener who has joined me at my biannual pastor's luncheons on several occasions. I can't remember his first name, but his name is Bishop Sloan. Do you know where he is connected?

I do not.

Okay, because if he's listening, he might want to chime in with his location just so he doesn't feel left out, but he has a shirt. He has assured me that he is a conservative Bible-believing Anglican, and I believe that he is somehow connected with Cana or something like that.

Okay.

But if you're listening, Bishop Sloan, you could send us your contact information as well. Well, as I said earlier, we have a tradition here. Whenever we have a first-time guest on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio...

Oh, wait a minute. Let me give your website, because I think I forgot to mention it. Goodshepherdanglican .net. Goodshepherdanglican .net is the website for Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, and hopefully I'll remember to repeat that later on in the program as well.

Now, as I was saying, please, as we have our custom here, give us a summary of your salvation testimony, what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord brought about in your life and used to save you.

Sure. Well, I was people, and then they call that, but down that I was about five years old when I... But it wasn't until I...

Reverend McCall, are you still there?

I am.

Okay.

For some reason, you're breaking up all of a sudden.

Are you there?

Can you hear me?

Yeah, but you keep cutting out. I don't know if we have to go to another phone line or something. You, out of the blue, just started to cut out.

Yes. Can you hear me now?

Yes.

Okay. Good, good.

So where was I?

You were saying that you felt, your family felt, the legalism of the specific or particular congregation of Fundamentalist Baptists, the legalism was too much for you to swallow. So you ventured on, and I don't remember hearing exactly where you wound up after that.

Right. We were at a non-denominational... The youth minister, their college, I went to the Lancaster Bible College over in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Came in Anglican, a couple of churches, and I was ordained not long after.

Anglican Identity Crisis and the Difference Between Episcopalian and Anglican

And am I correct in saying that now there is some kind of connection officially with the REC, or Reformed Episcopal Church, and the Anglican Church of North America?

That's a wonderful question, and one very...

Let me right off the bat ask you probably the most frequently asked question I get from listeners who have been noticing that I have been airing a lot of interviews lately, conducting a lot of interviews lately, and airing them with conservative, Bible-believing, confessional, and Reformed Episcopalians and Anglicans.

The question is, what's the difference between an Episcopalian and an Anglican? And I typically will say, well, Episcopalian is a description of church government, and Anglican would be a historic term that connects them with the Church of England, although many of the smaller confessional Reformed denominations that have emerged no longer have an official tie with the Church of England.

They're just referring to a historical connection with Thomas Cranmer, the great hero of the Christian faith, responsible for the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, and the Book of Common Prayer, and so on.

But if you could, in your own words, answer that frequently asked question for my listeners.

Well, sure. And that also is kind of a complicated question, because there are some jurisdictions... When people ask me, what's Reformed Episcopal? And then people will say, what's that? I'll explain that I'm an Anglican, and then they'll say, what's that?

And then I have to begin again. Of course, I get it all the time. But, you know, we would explain that the Episcopal Church was founded in the late... Can you tell us the circumstances behind that, why that would evoke such a large exodus?

Sure.

As well it should be. There probably should have been a number of straws before that.

Well, and there have been continuing churches forming for years. I mean, the Reformed Episcopal...

And by the way, I just want to let you know a little bit of interesting trivia that I don't know if I informed you of. My landlady was raised by a Reformed Episcopal pastor. Her father was a Reformed Episcopalian.

She is currently in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America. And before that, a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, where her husband pastored for many, many years.

Do you remember her father's name?

Yes, she is actually a direct descendant of Johann Sebastian Bach, B-A-C-H. So that is her maiden name.

Okay. I'm not familiar with him. I didn't know.

Yeah, great.

Yeah. So yeah, so we were founded in the 1970s. If I could go into that.

Yeah.

I look forward to having him back. He is a brilliant guest, and I really enjoyed interviewing him and look forward to many more interviews with him.

Yes, I hold him in high regard. He's a good man. But yeah, so he is a part of one of those breakaway groups.

Yes, I happen to agree with that wholeheartedly. And it boggles my mind that those that believe in the inerrancy of Scripture could possibly justify the ordination of women. But I do have friends who are in denominations that are still Bible-believing and conservative and yet ordain women.

So I don't want to broad brush those folks with liberalism. They have completely different reasons than the liberals and apostates do for ordaining women. So even though I disagree with it, I respond completely differently to those that are coming out of perhaps a Wesleyan holiness background or some kind of a Pentecostal background that even though I disagree with those theological perspectives, there is not a leftist reason for them ordaining women.

Right. Yeah, and...

No, go ahead.

Yep, so the APA didn't join with the...

Great.

Well, now let us dive into this very controversial theme, the Anglican identity crisis. And if you could restate those types of churches that you believe fall under the umbrella of the main term or the primary term, Anglican.

Yes, so since theology, I have this idea that there are... You have in the ACA, Kirk...

By the way, you're breaking up again, Reverend McArdle. I'm not sure what you were doing differently a moment ago, but you're starting to break up again.

It's just my house. It's kind of a dead zone. Can you hear me now?

Yes, I can.

Okay, good. So, you have those Anglo-Catholic groups...

You broke up again. I'm sorry, you broke up again.

Nope, nope, it's fine. I said I often joke about how calling Anglo-Reform...

Well, that's always music to my ears.

Yeah, simple church.

There are no white... See, you broke up there. They're not using the prayer book anymore, and then you said there are no, and you broke up.

Right, so they're vestments...

Now, let me ask you a question, and forgive me if this comes across in a insulting way, and I don't mean it to be, towards the Reformed Episcopal Church, but I have noticed in my communications with the REC over the years that there seems to be an influx, a growing number of Oxford movement Anglo-Catholics being admitted into the ministry, into the ordained pastorate in the Reformed Episcopal Church, and I had a very unpleasant encounter back...

It was either the early 2000s or the 1990s. One of the reasons I have a deep interest in all things Anglican and Episcopalian is that my father's side of the family, even though I was raised Roman Catholic before my rebirth in Christ and came to believe in the true gospel, which caused me to abandon Roman Catholicism, my father's side of the family has always been predominantly Episcopalian and Anglican, and my uncle, one of my uncles in the Washington State area, he is now deceased, but he was hinting to me that he was very likely going to leave the Episcopal Church over its leftist ideas and apostasy, and he was flirting with the idea of becoming a Roman Catholic, which unfortunately he actually eventually did.

And before he converted to Catholicism, I was calling Reformed Episcopal Churches to see how close any of them might be to where my uncle lived in Washington State, and an RAC pastor actually said to me that I was a moron for being concerned about my uncle's conversion to Roman Catholicism, and that he had more in common with his Roman Catholic brothers than idiots like me who are Reformed Baptists.

I was taken aback by that. I mean, first of all, for any pastor to respond to somebody with that kind of language is amazing, but it provoked in me further investigation, and upon speaking with genuinely Reformed and Protestant members of the REC, they have shared with me that that is a sad phenomenon of the growing numbers of Anglo-Catholic men in the ministry and in the priesthood in the REC.

So if you could just comment on what I said, and again, I hope I did not insult you in any way.

Oh no, not at all. We are part of that. In terms of our history, to the 19th Ciscapellians at one time were just prescient. Identity, where one of our bishops was the president of Moody Bible, and I'm coming into the church as well.

Bishop Leonard said that we need a prayer book. In fact, I'm going to have you pick up right at that point when we.

Return from our very first station. If anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. If you have a question for Pastor Ricky McCall, that's c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are in theological disagreement with your own pastor or the dominant membership of your church, and you don't want to draw attention to your identity. Or you might even be a pastor yourself, and you have differences with your own fellow elders, your denomination.

Whatever the case, that would create too sensitive an atmosphere for you to reveal your identity, and you'd rather remain anonymous. I can understand that, and I will grant your request to keep you anonymous.

But if it's just a general question on theology, doctrine, history, church polity, etc., then please at least give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back, God willing, right after these messages from our sponsors with more of Rev. Ricky McCall and the Anglican Identity Crisis. Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Reformed Episcopal Identity, Anglican Polity, and the Oxford Movement

Welcome back. This is Chris Armsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Reverend Ricky McCarl, hospice chaplain and vicar of Good Shepherd Anglican Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

And we are addressing the Anglican Identity Crisis. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarmsen at gmail .com, chrisarmsen at gmail .com, that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Before the break, Reverend McCarl, you may recall you were just about to lay out something of historic significance in the Reformed Episcopal Church, and that had to do with being more clear about your identity, whether you were.

Presbyterian or Anglican, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, so Bishop Rich's identity was clear, so things were reintroduced, such as to the Geneva gown, which was, those seem like small things, but to Anglicans those are kind of a big deal.

And so financial support of the church, and so that's still kind of, and so a little bit hard. In fact, that very rude REC priest.

That I told you about moments ago, who said that I was a moron for being concerned over my uncle converting to Roman Catholicism, I said to him, you know, I'm more of an Anglican than you are, because I actually believe in the majority of the 39 articles.

You cannot, with your mindset on Roman Catholicism, truly believe in those articles, because they're clearly Protestant. And he said to me, and I thank God that that embarrassing relic is really winding up on the dustbin of history.

Yeah. And this was an REC ordained priest, and we'll get to that in a moment, because we do have a listener who has a question about the term priest. But so this man either was dishonest when he was ordained, by saying that he affirmed the 39 articles,.

Or he had abandoned them. Right. We had an interesting encounter in ministry a couple of years ago. I was over at Coors Dakin, and I was chatting with the chaplain, and you know, I said, everybody's like, I just said, I really, I said, actually, I'm a Reformed Episcopalian.

And lo and behold, either he or his father went to RAS Seminary, so he knew all about the Reformed Episcopal Church, and we had a good time of fellowship. But the 39 articles in the Old Church... I just wish I could remember his name and his church right now.

It was so long.

Ago. Yeah, you said we had a question? Oh, yes. We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, the more I read about the Reformed Anglican movement, the more pleased I am with it. But I am somewhat dismayed about some of the trappings that seems to be clung to by some, not all, Reformed Anglicans, such as the term priesthood, which I understand the excuse is that it is an abbreviation of presbytos, but I don't believe that that's a legitimate excuse, because the priesthood has a certain and specific definition to it, and the only priesthood that we have in the New Testament is the priesthood of all believers.

And also, for the title father, which the New Testament clearly forbids when it comes to spiritual leaders. Can you please.

Respond to these criticisms? Yes, they're pretty typical. Especially from a former Roman Catholic.

Like me, because to tell you the truth, it concerns me as well. Yes, so in the Reformed.

Episcopal Church, it's always been customary to refer to a priesthood. I think that Winston's actually got a really... That's what I've heard, actually, that in Britain, in the UK, it's really.

Hardly ever, if ever, used. It's vicar and so on, but never father. Even among Anglo-Catholics,.

It's my understanding that they don't use them. Outside of the United States, you mean? Right, in the United Kingdom, the Anglo-Catholics wouldn't use the term father. Now, of course, in my parish, that term was used, I think in part because the last vicar...

Yes, I have, as I said,.

I have heard that from another Reformed Anglican pastor, which was actually quite a surprise to me. He also told me something that Bishop Robinson confirmed, was that when people express concern or dismay or even disgust over Anglicans or Episcopalians wearing clerical collars, the concept that was totally new to me was that, in irony, the Roman Catholic priesthood adopted the collar to imitate Presbyterians, to be more assimilated amongst the clergy, and that it doesn't have Roman Catholic origins.

Yeah, I actually prefer the Anglican,.

What we would call dog collar, which goes around the neck. It's a more Protestant look, and I have a friend... That's excellent. ...Anglican, the more, I should say, the more Presbyterian look.

Yeah, and it's interesting that outside of mainline Presbyterianism, most of the conservative Bible-believing Presbyterian denominations, with some exception, their pastorate very rarely wear collars at all.

They just wear a suit and tie like your average person in the congregation, but that's today, of course.

And along those lines, you would be hard-pressed to find the Reverend John Stott in a clerical collar. I think there is one or two pictures of him floating around in one, but he usually wore.

A tie and dress shirt. Of course, now he's wearing a robe of righteousness and glory with Christ.

Indeed, indeed, yes.

But we have to go to our midway break right now. This is the longer than normal break that we have because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show because they need to fulfill FCC requirements to localize their programming, including Iron Trip and Zion, to Lake City, Florida, and they do so by airing their own public service announcements and other local announcements during the middle of our show.

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