December 5, 2023 Show with Brian Gunter on “Has Pro-life, Evangelical Christian, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson Betrayed the Cause to Rescue the Unborn from Slaughter?”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man

sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the

listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day

of December 2023.

Today is day number two of our discussions on

rescuing unborn children from infanticide.

Yesterday, we had a representative of the pro -life movement, Scott

Klusendorf, on the program, and today we're having a

departure from what has been known as the pro -life ideology, and we're going to

be specifically addressing something in contrast, known as the abolitionist movement,

and to do so, we have our esteemed guest today, Brian Gunter, pastor of First

Baptist Church in Livingston, Louisiana, and a passionate abortion

abolitionist activist and spokesman, and today we're going to be addressing primarily as

pro -life evangelical Christian, Republican, and new house speaker, Mike Johnson,

betrayed the cause to rescue the unborn from slaughter.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Brian

Gunter.

Thank you so much, Chris, for having me.

I'm excited to be here with you.

And if anybody has a question you'd like to ask Pastor Brian, you can submit it to

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside

the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I can readily understand

when discussing abortion that that may evoke

questions from people who have intensely personal, private, and painful

experiences over which they want to ask a question, so we understand that and we will

honor your request to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state, and country

of residence.

First of all, please tell our listeners about First Baptist Church of Livingston, Louisiana.

Yeah, First Baptist Church is located in Livingston, Louisiana, about halfway between the cities of

Baton Rouge and Hammond.

So Chris, I'm about 20 miles east of my state capital in Baton Rouge,

and I am not originally from this part of Louisiana.

I come from the Alexandria area, but the Lord called me to

pastor First Baptist Livingston back in the beginning of 2022,

and I've been here a little over a year and a half with my family.

I've been in ministry for 18 years now, serving as a pastor, and I

just love the church here.

I'm an expositional preacher.

I'm currently leading First Baptist Livingston through a study of the 1689 Baptist Confession of

Faith to consider that to be adopted as our church's statement of faith.

We are historically a Southern Baptist Convention Church, but we have great concerns about the direction of the

Southern Baptist Convention, and we believe what Baptists used to believe, and

we have not left our heritage of believing all of Scripture, believing

the five solas of the Reformation.

We believe Scripture is our final authority, and that all our doctrine has to flow from that.

So that's my conviction as a pastor, and that's also the conviction of our church body.

And I highly recommend, by the way, perhaps even especially, I

recommend to Southern Baptists listening who are not Calvinist, who are not

soteriologically Reformed, I strongly urge you to get a hold of a book by Tom

Nettles titled By His Grace and For His Glory, and I am

sure that many non -Calvinist and even vehemently anti -Calvinist Baptists

will be utterly shocked to discover that some of the men they claim as their greatest heroes from

history were indeed thoroughgoing Calvinists, and in fact the entirety of the

leadership who founded the Southern Baptist Convention were thoroughgoing

five -point Calvinists, which is why there exists an organization called the

Founders Ministries or Founders Movement, which is made up of

sovereign grace -believing Southern Baptists who are trying to restore those beliefs to the Southern Baptist

Convention, which dominated that convention in the 19th century.

But anyway, we have a tradition here on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation story

that would include the kind of religious upbringing, if any, in which they were raised, and what

kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and

saved you.

So why don't you give us a summary of your story?

Well, I actually grew up in church.

I was a Baptist before I was a Christian, if you catch what I'm saying.

I grew up in the small town of Forest Hill, Louisiana, and my home church is a small church there called

Pisgah Baptist Church, and that is where I was reared in the faith and have a lot of good memories of that church and a lot of

people to this day that I love dearly and who dearly love me.

I came to faith in Christ.

I was at Vacation Bible School, a very Southern Baptist ministry, and

I was 10 years old, and I had a Sunday school teacher.

Her name was Miss—excuse me, a VBS teacher.

Her name was Miss Phoebe, and she explained to me that when Christ went to the cross, he paid for

my sins, that the reason that the Lord had to die on the cross was because of the sins that I had committed.

And for the first time in my life, although I had heard the gospel preached, for the first time in my life, I

understood that Jesus died to pay for my sin, and it

just crushed me, with not only the weight of my sin, but the suffering that my sin had caused for Christ.

And I was very convicted, and I felt

guilty of the death of the Son of God, and I felt so convicted over that, that

you could obviously tell that the Lord was working in my heart.

And so I met with my pastor, and he better explained the gospel to me, and I

repented of my sins and placed my faith in Christ, and I was baptized at 10 years old.

There was a period of time in my life—it would have been my ninth and tenth grade years in high school— that I

tried to stray from the Lord by partying and doing the things that you do in high school to try to fit in,

and I went to a church summer camp, also a very Southern Baptist place

to be.

In my youth group, we went to a church summer camp, and the camp pastor was preaching through the book of James.

And when he went through James 1 and 2 about being not only listeners, but

doers of the word, and he talked about how faith without works is dead, and I realized that

I was harboring unrepentant sin, at least trying to.

I was very conflicted about it, and I realized that I was a big hypocrite,

trying to be a Christian and trying to do things that I knew were wrong.

And I repented, and I realized that if I was going to follow Christ,

that I had to be fully committed to Christ.

I couldn't be halfway committed, and so it was through that—this was just before I turned

16 years old— it was through that that I began to get really serious about my faith

and began to study the Bible, and through a series of events and opportunities being

asked to teach and preach.

I started preaching at 16 years old, which was probably too young, but nonetheless, that's what happened.

And I would supply preach and teach when I had opportunities.

And then on my 19th birthday, I was called as a pastor, an associate pastor in my home church,

and I have been in pastoral ministry ever since.

Three years later, I was called to be the senior pastor of another church, and I have been preaching

every Sunday and Wednesdays for the past 18 years.

And I'm now 37 years old, and God has blessed my ministry, and I'm just so thankful to be

called to serve the Lord in pastoral ministry.

It's a blessing.

How did you specifically come to discover and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace known as Reformed theology?

Yes, so I had Dr. Chuck Quarles as my Greek professor at Louisiana College,

and I didn't realize that he was Reformed.

He didn't really, in the classroom, express his convictions on the doctrines of grace, but

he required me to do exegesis, and that'll make you into a

believer in the doctrines of grace if you'll just deal with the Word of God.

As long as you're honest about what you're exegeting.

Yeah, and so please understand if you're not Reformed, I say that in a little bit of jest, but in all

sincerity, it was my study of Scripture.

So I had to do an exegetical paper on Ephesians chapter 1, verses 3 to 13.

And when I worked through that passage, I broke down and said, I have been wrong.

The Bible teaches sovereign grace.

The Bible teaches unconditional election.

I am not responsible for my salvation.

God is, ultimately speaking.

And I would not have come to Christ unless God had first changed my heart.

And I realized that this is something that God had purposed and planned before the foundation of the world.

And I just stopped fighting against what I was reading in the Bible.

I was trying to explain passages, explain away passages in Scripture.

And finally, I just embraced what it said.

And that was early on in my ministry.

I was about 21 years old at the time.

And ever since then, I have believed and preached the doctrines of grace.

And I just tell people I'm a Baptist.

I believe what Charles Haddon Spurgeon believed.

And so I'm not strange.

I don't have weird theology.

I fully embrace and affirm the 1689 Baptist confession of faith, which is what the majority of Baptists throughout

our history believed.

Majority doesn't mean it's right, but it is a good argument that I'm not strange.

I am just a Baptist, historically speaking.

Well, I have to confess I do know a lot of strange Reformed Baptists, but that's another story.

Yes, I do, too.

In fact, quite a number of people would put me in that category for certain.

And by the way, let me also quickly ask you how

you realized that God had placed a call upon your life to become a pastor.

So it was through the confirmation of church leadership.

I mean, there was the desire to preach.

My pastor actually had asked me to share my testimony of how just

before I turned 16, how God had really convicted me over my sin.

And he could see how I began to be much more serious about my faith and

studying the word of God.

We were riding back from camp and I was just reading my Bible and just was constantly in Scripture.

And he's like, what's going on?

You know, normally when kids are on a youth trip, they're goofing up in the back of the church van and I'm back there just reading the Bible

intently.

And I just told him I just realized I have so much to learn.

And I was just convicted that I needed to be more serious in my walk with Christ.

And he said, well, I want you to share that with the church on Sunday.

And then he then he decided he said, I'm going to I'm going to give you the sermon time.

Take as much time as you need.

So I preached a 30 minute sermon.

And this was actually just before my 16th birthday.

I was still 15 at the time.

I don't recommend allowing 15 year olds in your pulpit, pastors.

But but anyways, God, God sovereignly protected me from preaching any sort of heresy.

And I basically just explained what I had learned from the pastor from the book of James.

And I just shared that.

And what happened in my church, the leadership in my church, other ordained pastors and deacons

said, we believe God's called you to preach.

He's gifted you.

And so there was a period of, you know, I was allowed to teach some Sunday school classes and build a pulpit from time to time.

And that grew into more and more until finally on my 19th birthday, my home church called me to be an associate

pastor and ordained me to pastoral ministry.

Wow.

Praise God.

Well, I want to make sure I want to let our listeners know about something that I forgot to mention

at the outset.

If you live in or near Livingston, Louisiana, or

you're passing through or you have family, friends and loved ones near there, please

visit the website of First Baptist Church of Livingston, Louisiana, which is

FBC Livingston L .A. for Louisiana dot org.

FBC for First Baptist Church Livingston L .A. dot org.

And God willing, we'll repeat that before the end of the show.

Well, I think it would be wise for us now to have you give

a description that informs us on the

differences between abolitionism, the

ideology that you espouse that motivates and drives

your efforts to rescue unborn children from slaughter

and compare and contrast that with the ideology of my guest yesterday, Scott Klusendorf.

And so our listeners will have a greater understanding of why there is a difference

in the cause for life in this nation and globally for that matter.

Yeah, thank you, Chris.

So I didn't get to listen to all of the interview yesterday with Scott Klusendorf, but I did listen to some of it.

And so I will, as appropriate, try to explain how my position is indeed different

from Scott's.

We're going to agree on some things and disagree on others.

So the best way I believe to explain abolition, I'd like to quote a friend of

mine.

He's an attorney, Bradley Pierce.

I think that he has stated this in the most succinct way possible.

And Bradley Bradley has explained abolitionists believe that murdering anyone

should be illegal for everyone.

And what that means is abortion is murder.

Biblically speaking, abortion is the unjustified taking of an innocent human

life.

And it's an intentional act in abortion.

We typically have people, the doctor, if there's a doctor involved,

sometimes abortions are self -managed and we'll talk about that more.

But if there's a doctor involved, if there's medical staff, if there is an industry

that is providing abortion pills for the purpose of inducing abortion, the mother and the father who either

hire an assassin or who procure medication and manage the

abortion themselves, however it takes place, whoever is involved in the act of intentionally killing an

innocent child in the womb, they are to one degree or another guilty of homicide under the

homicide code.

And if they have full culpability, if they intentionally committed this

act, then they would be guilty of murder.

There is homicide that does not rise to the level of murder, and that is a possibility.

But generally, those who commit abortion are guilty of murder.

And I believe that the law should treat the innocent life in the womb equally

and protect that life equally with born persons.

So I believe that the same laws that protect your life and my life, Chris, those same laws should protect

the child in the womb.

An abolitionist believes that we must have equal protection under the law, which, by the way, is what the 14th

Amendment to the U .S. Constitution says that we must do.

Abolitionists believe that we must provide pre -born children equal protection under the law so that

their lives are protected equally with born persons because they have the same right to life

granted to them by God.

Therefore, our laws should equally protect that life from the moment of fertilization,

which is sometimes called conception, but scientifically is fertilization.

The moment that the sperm and the egg meets and the child begins to grow from fertilization until natural death

with no point in between where there is any variation, we believe that all human life

must be equally protected under the law.

That's what an abolitionist believes.

And as we confirmed or as I confirmed with you

before the program, abolitionists, or at least the majority of

those with whom you have a great measure of agreement,

do not believe that if abortion were to be

outlawed and all those who would be participants in the

murder of an unborn child would be rightly

prosecuted and imprisoned and so on, that

you do not believe in retroactive prosecution of everyone

known in the United States who has had an abortion.

And it could be 30 years ago.

Not only do I not believe in retroactively punishing those who commit

abortion, not only do I not believe it, but the Constitution of pretty much every

state that I'm aware of, certainly the Louisiana Constitution in my home state, as well as the U .S. Constitution

prohibit ex post facto laws that's after the fact.

I cannot make it a crime.

I cannot punish you for a crime for something that you did in the past, which was legal when you committed

that act.

So women who had abortions at times when it was legal for them to have it, we cannot

retroactively punish them.

Not under our federal constitution or pretty much every state constitution that I'm aware of, but also that would be

immoral.

Our laws permitted women to murder their children.

We are guilty of having unjust laws.

We can't go back and prosecute for something that we permitted them by law to do.

That would be morally wrong and it would also be unconstitutional.

We need to change our laws and from the moment our laws are changed, each life will be equally protected under

law.

Now, if you could, before we go to our first break, I understand you wanted to voice some

pushback to Scott Klusendorf over some of what you heard him say yesterday.

Well, you know, as I listen to Scott and to be fair, I didn't hear everything that Scott said.

So if I miss something, that's my fault, not his.

But what I heard could have led the listener to the impression of if

we go after the abortion industry and shut down abortion clinics, then that would be sufficient to

solve the problem of abortion.

He talked about going after the source of abortion, but the problem is that now

after the Dobbs decision, which struck down Roe v. Wade, now in the United States of

America, the majority of abortions are self -managed abortions where

mothers are ordering the abortion pill online, having it shipped to their door, through the

mail, and then they are self -managing an abortion at home.

So when I heard Scott talking about going after the abortionists and those in the abortion industry,

my question was, well, what about when the mother is her own abortionist?

And that's the majority of abortions in America now.

And specifically, so this was revealed in a number of studies that have been done after the Dobbs decision.

The first one that I noticed, it was run in the New York Times and it was citing an

article that was published November 1st of 2022, which was only a few months after

Roe had been overturned in the Dobbs case.

And they were saying that the abortion rate nationally has only decreased about 2%.

And in some states, the abortion rate has actually increased after Roe was overturned.

And it's cited in that report from the Journal of American Medical Association that the state with the highest

rate of increase of abortions after Roe was overturned was the state of Louisiana.

My home state, Louisiana, leads the nation in increases of abortions after

the Dobbs decision.

And the reason they cite it is, so you need to understand, we had three abortion clinics open and operating in the state

of Louisiana immediately prior to Roe being overturned last year.

We had abortion clinics in New Orleans.

We had one in New Orleans, one in Baton Rouge, and one in Shreveport, Louisiana.

And I have ministered outside of those abortion clinics for years now on many different occasions.

And when those abortion clinics closed because our trigger laws went into effect, which made it a crime to

operate an abortion clinic and made it a crime for anyone in the medical profession to induce abortion, what

many people did not realize is there were also laws in Louisiana, which specifically gave immunity to

the woman who has an abortion.

And now that the abortion pill is easily accessible via the mail, you can order the abortion pill in the mail.

These women simply turn to mail -order abortion pills, and we actually have more abortions in

Louisiana after the abortion clinics closed down than we did while they were open because

abortion is cheaper now.

It's more easily accessible.

You don't have to go through a crowd of abolitionists and pro -lifers praying and trying to

minister outside of the abortion clinic.

You can do it in the privacy of your own home.

Every mailbox is a location where you can secure an abortion pill legally, and

you can have the abortion at home, flush the baby down the toilet, and that's perfectly legal in all 50 states in the United States of

America.

And my position is that should not be legal.

It should not be legal for mothers and fathers to murder their own children, whether inside or outside the womb.

And I want to also let our listeners know that my guest today, Brian Gunter,

works closely in this effort to end infanticide in the United States

with our mutual friend Jeff Durbin, who heads End Abortion Now.

He's also a teaching elder at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, where my

longtime friend for decades, Dr. James R. White, who I often make in ministries, also serves

as an elder and pastor.

But tell us how you first became aware of Jeff and his

labors with End Abortion Now.

Well, I mean, I was—so I followed Dr. James White for many years, I think about 15

years ago.

The same time that I embraced Reformed theology, I started following Dr. White's ministry.

And that's actually how you discovered who I was, because you were watching my stand -up comedy routines on the debates.

Yeah, that's right.

So when you reached out to me, you're like, hey, I don't know if you know me, Pastor Brian.

I was like, of course I know Chris Orenson.

I was like, you're the guy cracking all the jokes before Dr. White debates people.

I've heard you many times over the years.

So anyways, I—so I had followed Dr. White's ministry.

I didn't know him personally, but I had followed his ministry, listened to The Dividing Line regularly and had for some

years.

And I knew that Dr. White was working closely with Jeff Durbin.

And so I started listening to Apology Radio and listening to Jeff's

work with End Abortion Now.

And I really appreciated Jeff because he embraced abolition, which I agreed with.

But he did it in a way where he was trying to speak to people in the pro -life movement.

He was saying you need to be consistent and you need to support equal protection under the

law for children in the womb.

And he specifically was saying that we should not be supporting bills that Jeff has

called bills of partiality.

And he's using a biblical term there.

The Bible forbids partiality, namely in the book of James.

It talks about not being partial to the rich man over the poor man.

So essentially, we cannot treat human beings differently.

They're equally created in the image of God.

And the child in the womb has to be equally protected under law.

And we can't pass laws that say, well, you can murder a child before they reach, say,

12 weeks, 16 weeks gestation, but not after.

As a Christian, I cannot consistently say that's a human life in the womb.

And I'm going to advocate for a law that says you can legally murder that person, just not also these.

As a Christian, I can't support any law that makes murder legal.

I don't believe we should permit murder.

Again, being an abolitionist means that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone.

And so Jeff was making this argument and I was like, man, this is I'm listening to him online and I'm like, man, this

guy, he's right.

And so I in my mind, this was back in about 2019, I began to say, yeah, I can't

support these bills because I had lobbied for incremental bills in my state legislature.

I had been working in the pro -life movement.

And I said I was wrong to do that.

I began to realize that that that if a law permits any murder, that's a law that we shouldn't be supporting.

So I embraced equal protection and abolition.

But it was in 2021 that I finally met Jeff Durbin.

I was at the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville.

And Jeff was talking to a group of pastors.

And I walked up during the conversation and I think it was about maybe six pastors.

And they were asking questions.

They were asking Jeff questions about abolition.

And I'm just standing in the back of the crowd listening.

And I listened for probably half an hour.

And when they were all done, they walked away.

And I'm standing there and it's just Jeff and I at this point.

And he introduces himself and says, hey, I'm Jeff Durbin.

You know, and I said, hey, I'm Brian Gunner.

I'm a pastor from Louisiana.

And he said, do you have any questions for me?

And I said, no, you just answered them all.

And I told him who I was.

And I said, you know, I've worked in the pro -life movement for years.

I'm conflicted because I really believe in equal protection and abolition.

And I've been thinking for quite a while now to reach out to you.

And when I saw you here, I wanted to hear what you had to say.

And I was going to ask you the very questions that these other pastors were asking you.

And I just told them I'm ready to work for abolition in my state of Louisiana.

And so we began working together on a bill of abolition that was introduced the following spring

in 2022 in the Louisiana legislature.

That was House Bill 813.

That was really historic because it's the first time that any bill of abolition and equal protection

has passed any legislative body.

And so the bill passed committee with a 7 to 2 vote and it was defeated on the House floor.

And there's really quite a story about that, how that happened and that I won't tell right now.

But that's how I started working with Jeff.

I listened to him online as he argued for abolition.

I was convinced of his position.

And then once we had met in person, we decided to begin working together.

Okay, we're going to our first commercial break right now.

If you have a question, you can send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and we'll be right back.

Please don't go away.

I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is

received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect

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If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join

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For details, visit Lindbrookbaptist .org.

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This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through

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It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of

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We're now back with Brian Gunter, pastor of First Baptist Church in Livingston,

Louisiana, who is also a leading voice in the abortion abolitionist movement.

If you have a question, please submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Always give your first name, city and state, and country of residence unless it's a very personal and private

question.

You may remain anonymous.

Just to give credit where credit is due

to Scott Klusendorf, you agreed that it was a pleasure to

hear that he at the very least does believe that anyone and any

woman included who has an abortion, even if it's through the abortion

pill, there needs to be some form of punishment, which you said is a very rare

position in the pro -life movement, didn't you?

Yeah, I mean, I do want to say that Scott's position does

deviate from the pro -life movement generally.

In that generally the pro -life movement has stated they don't want any punishment

whatsoever for a mother who commits an abortion, even if she did it

100 of her own choosing.

Even if she did it on her own with a self -managed abortion, no one was even pressuring her.

They don't think there's any circumstance in the pro -life movement generally where a woman should be punished

for having an abortion, no matter the abortion she's had.

Even if she publicly laughs, jokes and brags about how many abortions she's

had.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the pro -life movement generally has stated even the shout your abortion crowd, they are victims

and they should not be punished for abortion.

So I just want to say Scott does hold a different position, but he is not and he doesn't

describe himself as an abolitionist.

He is not an abolitionist.

His position is different from mine.

And one of the areas that I'd like to push back in and what I heard yesterday was Scott talked about there

should be culpability for the mother who willfully and knowingly murders her own child by

abortion.

But it shouldn't be the same level of culpability as, say, an abortionist who commits

the procedure of surgical abortion.

My first issue there is we are talking about punishing

people for murder.

And I do not believe that someone who is guilty of murder

should be punished less than another person who is equally guilty and culpable for that murder.

Like a woman who hires a hit man to kill her husband.

Yeah, like he might.

I heard him say, well, the woman doesn't have the same level of understanding and knowledge of

the abortion that the abortion doctor does.

But in all respect, Scott, that that is not at all how it works when someone commits

murder, say, with a firearm.

I mean, there have been plenty of times where someone who has committed murder with a firearm and they might not

be able to fully explain the physiological reasons why firing a bullet into

someone's body can cause them to die.

A doctor might be able to explain that.

Well, you know, the bullet goes in and it might sever a major artery or hit a hit a major

organ and the blood pressure drops and the person loses consciousness and they bleed out and they die.

And there's medical terminology that can be used to describe that.

It doesn't matter if they can explain the abortion procedure or whatever the murder is like a doctor can.

The question is, does she understand that she is taking an action which

will directly result in the killing of an innocent human life?

And if the answer to that question is yes, then she is a murderer.

And I do not believe that anyone should be punished at a lesser level for murder if

they are culpable of that murder.

And certainly most women who have abortions are.

Now, I do not believe women who are forced to have an abortion.

I'm talking about legal coercion.

I'm talking about like a sex trafficker who threatens the life or serious bodily injury of a woman who will

not have an abortion.

That happens.

And in those cases, we would prosecute the sex trafficker for murder in forcing women to

undergo abortion and not the woman who was coerced.

But when we're talking about a woman who knowingly, intentionally, willfully chooses to murder

her own child, that woman is before God a murderer.

And she should be treated as guilty under the law for committing homicide.

And I really my main concern here is I don't believe that Scott would argue for

a lower level of culpability for a mother who murders her child after that child is born.

And I heard you mention this yesterday, Chris, about murdering someone after being born.

Imagine the abortion failed.

The woman attempted an abortion and the abortion failed.

The baby is born alive and then the mother suffocates the child.

That's exactly what Scott was talking about.

Kermit Gosnell doing.

And Scott doesn't have any problem with Kermit Gosnell being prosecuted for murder.

Neither do I.

That's what he needs.

Kermit Gosnell needs the death penalty, by the way.

But we won't get into that right now.

Nonetheless, we agree that that a mother or anyone who

intentionally murders a newborn child should be prosecuted for murder.

What is the difference when the child is in the womb?

You see, if we have a lesser punishment for the murder of a child in the womb, what we are saying with our law is

that the child in the womb's life will not be equally protected with the child that's been

born.

And what we're communicating is, is that the life of the child in the womb is less valuable than the life of the

child outside the womb.

And as Christians who believe the Bible, we cannot say that one human life is more valuable than another.

We are equally created in the image of God.

And if we believe in the biblical doctrine of the sanctity of human life, we have to also espouse that

we must have equal protection under the law for every human being, because every human being has an equal right

to life given to them by their creator.

Now, I just want to also let our listeners know that on Wednesday, February

21st, 2024, we have scheduled a debate between Scott Klusendorf

and an abolitionist who came highly recommended by my guest

Brian Gunter and also his colleague, friend, and comrade in arms in

the abolitionist movement, Jeff Durbin.

Jason Storms, who is the national director of Operation Save

America.

And just briefly, because we don't want to spend a lot of time away from our main

theme, but there has been pushback, there has been feedback, negative feedback

from quite a number of self -professed abolitionists who are

telling me that what I have arranged is ridiculous because it's really a debate between

an incrementalist and an incrementalist.

This is not a debate between an incrementalist and an abolitionist because they are saying, these

individuals, that Jason Storms does not have

an adequate belief system that would warrant him being

considered an abolitionist.

And it's interesting that these folks seem to universally believe that you and

Jeff Durbin are wonderful, fantastic, vital

champions in the cause for the abolitionist movement, rock stars, if you

will.

And yet they don't think that your discernment over this is adequate because they keep insisting that you're wrong about

your endorsement of Jason Storms.

If you could just briefly explain why you believe that he is a completely legitimate

choice for this debate on February 21st.

So Jason is a friend of mine.

We have only known each other for, I think, about two years now, so I don't know Jason extraordinarily

well.

And nonetheless, I have worked with him and communicated with him over the past

few years and know him to be an abolitionist.

Now, there was a clip brought up from a conference that Operation Save America held

in the past, in the recent past.

I don't know exactly when it was, but it was recently.

And at this conference, he had made some remarks that Jason told me himself that

he wishes that he had said them better, because it could give you the the

false understanding that Jason supports incremental laws.

So I asked him about it.

I said, what is your position on incremental laws?

Do you support those?

Please explain to me what what's being said here in more fully explain your

position.

And Jason told me that he holds the same position that I hold as an abolitionist.

So I'm taking my brother's word.

He told me this yesterday.

And I would just say if Jason at some point in the past held an incrementalist

perspective, the same is also true of me several years ago.

Right.

It's only been in the last, I mean, three to five years.

It was kind of a progressive change for me.

You know, one thing after the other led me to be being a full blown abolitionist.

By the end of 2021, I was fully committed to being an abolitionist.

But over that time in the years prior, I moved closer and closer to abolition until I fully

embraced it.

And I would presume that Jason has had a similar experience.

So for what he said in the past, I don't know that I can fully explain that.

Jason can.

But what he told me was that he does not believe in incremental laws for the same reason that I don't, because incremental

laws specifically permit some abortions while prohibiting others.

And I, as a Bible believing Christian, cannot agree to support a law which permits

any innocent human being from being murdered, permits them to be murdered.

I do not believe that mothers should be granted immunity, blanket immunity, where if they commit abortion,

they will have no ability to be prosecuted under the law.

Because, again, I believe that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone.

And bills of what I prefer to call bills of partiality because they do not

treat persons equally under the law.

What has been called incrementalism.

These bills specifically permit some babies to be murdered by their mothers.

And I don't believe that should be the case.

Therefore, I don't support incremental laws.

Jason told me he agrees with that.

But what he said was there were some lawmakers who both voted for a bill of abolition and equal protection and

voted for an incremental bills.

And he said for those lawmakers in certain states that he's been working where the

lawmakers were trying to straddle the fence on both sides of this issue, that he was gracious toward them and he wasn't

publicly denouncing their votes, but he was privately trying to help them understand that voting for an

incremental bill is inconsistent with abolition and that they should not support incremental bills and

only support bills that actually establish justice by equally protecting all human lives under the law.

So that is the explanation that Jason has given to me.

And I'm taking my brother's word that what he told me yesterday is accurate.

And therefore, if he believes those things and I believe what he told me, then he is an abolitionist.

And by the way, he will be my guest before this planned debate in February.

Jason Storms will be on the program on Tuesday, the 26th of December, the day after Christmas,

to further explain himself and so on and and all the ministries in which he labors.

We're going to our midway break already.

And please be patient with us.

The midway break is a bit longer because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida,

requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires

of Grace Life Radio to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're located.

And we, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can.

Keeping in mind that our advertisers are

absolutely vital and necessary for this program to exist.

So the funding that comes through our advertisers is absolutely essential.

So please try to respond to our advertisers as much as possible.

And to further ensure you'll do that, write down their contact information that they provide in their ads.

Also send in your questions to Brian Gunter, to Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

Don't go away.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards.

And Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism.

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If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

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Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful church, no matter where in the world you

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Brian Gunter, our guest today.

We are talking about the abolitionist movement, and more specifically, we

are raising some concerns and critiques of Mike Johnson,

the new Speaker of the House, who claims to be not only a born -again believer in Christ Jesus,

but a pro -life advocate, and yet there is a great sense of betrayal

from him that is seen by many who labor for the cause of

rescuing unborn children from slaughter.

And again, our email address is chrisarenson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if you have a question.

Briefly, tell us exactly what you and Jeff Durbin are doing

in your labors with End Abortion Now.

Well, Jeff and I and other abolitionists across the nation, I mean, there's many of

us.

We are working together in states across our nation to introduce bills

of abolition and equal protection.

Again, abolition is the goal.

We want to abolish abortion by fully prohibiting all abortion under the law.

That's abolition, and we want to do that by the legal mechanism of equal protection.

We want to give the same right to life.

Well, God has given the pre -born child the right to life, and we want the law to

recognize that the child in the womb has the same right to life as born persons.

Therefore, the laws that protect born persons should also protect pre -born

persons under the law.

So we're introducing bills in states across our nation, and there are a number

of states.

I'm not sure if I know the total number.

I think it's about 17.

I believe it was last time I heard where we are introducing bills of abolition in the coming year

in 2024.

So we will be arguing for those bills in various state legislatures across our nation working to

end abortion in those states by law.

By the way, I want to make sure our listeners have the website for End Abortion Now.

It's very easy to remember, endabortionnow .com, endabortionnow .com.

And we look forward to hopefully, God willing, having Jeff Durbin also join us for an interview in the near

future.

He's going through a lot right now, actually adopting twin babies.

And keep Jeff and his wife and family in your prayers.

Now, I'm going to take one listener question for now before

we go into more of a focused discussion on Mike Johnson.

Let's see here.

We have Virginia in Viroqua, Wisconsin.

Thank you for having Brian on your show.

I hope you will invite him again to tell what happened in Louisiana as they went to vote on the abortion bill.

Specifically, the pro -life organization sent a letter to legislators warning them not to vote for

abolition of abortion, not to vote for equal protection, equal justice for children in the womb.

That story needs to be told so that faithful Christians who hold these pro -life

groups to account, so that faithful Christians would hold these pro -life groups to

account.

Anything you care to say about that that you can and desire to?

Yeah, I'd like to tell a little bit of that story, Chris.

So we introduced House Bill 813 in the Louisiana legislature

in 2022, and that bill sailed through committee with a 7 to 2 vote

and it went to the House floor.

And, you know, a week prior to the vote on May 12th, 2022, I had

been talking to legislators and out of 105 members of the Louisiana House, I had counted 72

legislators in the House of Representatives in Louisiana who had committed to me that they were going to vote

in favor of HB 813 to abolish abortion in my state.

But what began to happen was that the pro -life establishment, I like to call

them, those are the big organizations in the pro -life movement led by the National Right to Life

Committee and in my state led by Louisiana Right to Life, an organization that I used to work for

and had left.

And part of my concern when I left was that they were rejecting equal

protection and abolition, and I had begun to embrace that position.

And so anyways, we introduced this bill and we started getting all

this pushback.

And I started getting phone calls from church leaders and legislators who told me that Congressman

Mike Johnson was contacting them, telling them to no longer support the bill.

Jeff and I released a video recently on the Apology of Studios YouTube channel,

and you can go there and watch this expose on Mike Johnson.

And I name names and give facts.

Much of this I have written documentation of that I have not released, but I have all of the proof that

I need that what I said in that video is in fact true.

And so I explain how Mike Johnson began to lobby state legislators as a U .S.

congressman.

He began to lobby the members of the Louisiana House to vote against this bill, which some of them had

issued public endorsements of.

Forty one members of the House had actually co -sponsored, and he got all but

two Republicans to vote to kill the bill.

That is the influence and power of Congressman Mike Johnson over Louisiana legislators.

Mike called me directly and he told me that it was a bad bill.

And he explained essentially that if a bill to abolish abortion

were passed in Louisiana, that it would seriously hurt Republicans' abilities to get reelected

to office.

And he told me that he agrees with the concept of equal protection, but it's just not the right time.

And I told Mike, I said.

Where in the Bible does it say that it's the wrong time to do the right thing, that we should ever delay justice?

The Bible talks about giving justice speedily to victims and we need to speedily give justice to these

children in the womb.

Mike went on to warn me that if I move forward with this bill of abolition and

if Danny McCormick, the legislator who was offering the bill, if Danny and I did not pull the bill, that it would have

a serious impact on our futures and our careers and that there would be decision makers, as

Mike told me, who would be very upset with me and that it would,

quote, severely damage my ministry platform in the state legislature and beyond.

Those were those were sobering words coming from a powerful U .S. congressman who is now speaker of the House of

Representatives, where he told me as a pastor in Louisiana to stop fighting to abolish abortion in my

state.

Mike Johnson has always called himself pro -life, but he

opposes equal protection for children in the womb.

Mike called me recently after this video came out and he was obviously

very upset with me for going public with what happened.

I sat on this information for 18 months, hoping that Mike would repent.

And Mike called me and he was very upset with me.

And I asked Mike a very simple question that he refused to answer.

I said, Mike, should abortion be legal for women?

And he refused to answer the question.

And as the speaker of the House of Representatives, Mike should have an answer to that question.

The answer should be no.

But if he says no, abortion should not be legal for women.

Then the next question has to be, OK, so if a woman commits an abortion, what should the appropriate punishment be?

Right.

And Mike doesn't want to go down that that line because he knows that politically it is unpopular

to actually treat the child in the womb as a person and equally defend their right to life under law.

You see, we can say we believe the child in the womb is a person all we want to, but actually protecting their

life with the same laws that protect our life.

That is a bridge too far for many Republicans.

They have made a calculation that we can't save too many babies from abortion

if that will cause us to lose elections.

And so it's really a choice between the lives of children in the womb and winning the next election.

And the calculation has been made by many Republicans, including Speaker Mike Johnson, who I know

personally and for years considered to be a friend.

They have made the calculation that that fully prohibiting abortion is too politically costly.

Therefore, they're unwilling to do it.

Yeah.

You've even eaten in his home and he's eaten in your home.

Your friendship goes way back when he was only a

state representative.

Correct.

Yeah.

My family's been in his home.

Yeah.

You know, Chris, I.

I love Mike.

I believe he's my brother in Christ.

I don't know.

I don't I don't know how a brother in Christ could do such a thing as fight against.

Equal protection for children in the womb.

I mean, make no mistake about it.

In fighting to kill House Bill 813, it was it was a fight specifically

to stop abortion from being prohibited for women.

So, Chris, let me read the letter that was sent out by the National Right to Life Committee, signed by

76 leading pro -life organizations across the nation, including Louisiana Right to

Life in my state, whom I used to work for this, this letter, which was led by National Right to Life Committee.

It's entitled an open letter to state lawmakers from America's leading pro -life organizations.

And you can find it on the NRLC dot org Web site.

They state we state unequivocally that we do not support any

measure seeking to criminalize or punish women.

And we stand firmly opposed to include such penalties in legislation.

Now, that's really a dishonest statement, Chris.

I'm not trying to criminalize women for being women.

They left out the key part.

They stand against criminalizing or punishing women for prenatal homicide, for murdering their

own child in the womb.

They believe that abortion should be legal for women.

That is whether they want to admit it or not, whether they like it being stated that clearly or not.

The National Right to Life Committee and the 76 organizations that signed this letter, they

want abortion to be legal for women, but illegal for the abortion industry.

So they want to shut down abortion clinics, but they do not want to make it illegal for a mother to self -manage an

abortion at home.

And I would add that is the majority of abortions in the United States of America today.

They want the majority of abortions in America to remain legal because they stand

fully opposed to making it a crime for a mother to murder her child in the womb.

By the way, Virginia and Viroqua, Wisconsin, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible.

So if you would please provide for us your mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

cvbbs .com, can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us.

And we also thank nasbible .com, the publishers of the NASB, for always

providing free NAS Bibles for our first -time questioners.

Going back to a theological issue, I think that is very relevant

to the behavior of Mike Johnson and every other so -called pro -life

person who compromises on things out of fear that

what they are trying to move forward will offend too many people.

And prevent the re -election of Republican candidates.

We've been hearing quite frequently ad nauseum infinitum

from Sean Hannity on Fox News chastising Republicans

who are running for office for being too harsh in their anti -abortion rhetoric,

demanding that they begin offering options like rape and incest as valid

reasons for women to murder their children.

And on and on we go.

Are we to be incrementalists when it comes to the so -called

gender reassignment of little children by parents?

Are we to say, okay, we don't want you to use surgery to do it, but we'll allow

the medications, the pharmaceutical methods of so -called changing your gender?

We know that nobody can change their gender.

And on and on we could go.

I mean, we could even go back to Germany prior to

World War II when there was a very prevalent

attitude of anti -Semitism, of Jewish hatred in Germany.

I mean, this wasn't invented by Hitler.

But let's say someone was seeking to run for chancellor of Germany

in an election, and they knew of this

prevalent anti -Semitism that existed in Germany.

So we got to say, look, we're against the complete extermination of Jews,

but we will allow the imprisonment of Jews.

We will allow the destruction of their places of businesses.

We'll allow them to be driven out of their homes.

You know, that kind of thing.

I mean, am I making sense here?

Does anybody stand for this kind of incrementalism when, in reality,

the murder, the torturous and brutal and barbaric murder of children in the womb is

a far more serious crime than merely having a bigotry or a hatred

towards someone?

Yeah, we don't believe in incrementalism when it comes to anything else.

Yet the pro -life movement, by and large, believes that we should only prohibit some

abortions and not others.

And let me also clarify here, Chris, they're not simply doing this as an issue of strategy.

This letter from the National Right to Life Committee, signed by 76 major pro -life organizations

across America, this letter states they never support making

abortion illegal for women.

No matter if it's politically feasible, in their opinion or not, they oppose

prohibiting abortion for women.

They support legalized, self -managed abortion for women, and they call themselves pro -life.

That is their position.

They don't simply have a different approach.

They have a different end goal.

And it's ultimately because they have a different worldview than the Christian worldview.

We, as believers in Scripture, we believe that we must defend

human life, that there is no greater thing that God has given us than the sanctity of human

life.

There is no greater thing that our laws must protect than the sanctity of human life.

And therefore, we have to equally protect all human life.

That is what God requires us to do.

And because of that biblical Christian worldview, we say, I cannot permit, I cannot allow, I

cannot condone any human to be murdered.

And the child in the womb is a human being.

Therefore, murdering that human being should be illegal for anyone, including the child's own mother.

And so there's really no way to get around the biblical truth that abortion is murder and

all abortion should be prohibited.

All murder should be prohibited by law, including abortion.

I want to share one scripture, Chris.

Proverbs 24, verse 10 through 12.

It says, if you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.

I just want to make a comment here.

We live in a day of adversity.

This nation is fighting over the issue of abortion.

There's no doubt.

We would all recognize that abortion is a major controversial issue in our day.

And the Bible says, if you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.

That's a nice way of saying, don't be a coward.

Stand up for what you know is right and what God requires.

And then comes the command, Proverbs 24, verse 11.

Rescue those who are being taken away to death.

Hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

I've heard pastors say things like, that's not my responsibility to try to end abortion.

I'm just supposed to pastor my church and preach the gospel.

The gospel requires you to rescue those who are perishing and hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

God commands you to do that in Proverbs 24, verse 11.

That is a part of the Christian worldview, defending innocent human life.

And then it says, behold, if you say we did not know this, does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?

Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it?

And will he not repay man according to his work?

Chris, we're all going to answer to Jesus Christ on the day of judgment.

What did you do to protect these children from being murdered in the womb?

And I want to say this, and I say it lovingly but directly.

Men like House Speaker Mike Johnson, those legislators who voted to kill HB 813 in Louisiana,

and anyone who voted to kill a bill of equal protection and abolition in many other states where they've been introduced.

They have the blood of the hands who have been murdered since that vote on their own

hands because they are guilty and complicit in allowing abortion to remain

legal for women in their state.

We have to fight against this.

We cannot settle for allowing these babies to be murdered but not those.

That is simply unacceptable.

We cannot compromise on the issue of life.

If we're willing to compromise with the lives of innocent children, then what will we stand upon?

Amen.

Amen.

Preach it, brother.

This is at the root for all professing Christians

who fear saying or doing anything that is unpopular

in an unregenerate Christ -hating world.

You have pastors and churches and denominations

who will not publicly preach the true gospel of

repentance.

You will have pastors totally fearful of

preaching against sin, of being very apologetic

and timid about preaching against homosexuality.

And we could go on and on and on, and the reason being, if you were to press

many of them, well, we have hundreds or thousands of people showing

up for worship, and if we start to be that honest about what the

scriptures teach, we're going to lose people, and those people aren't going to find Christ

or whatever outcome they think is going to occur, as if

they are in control over the regeneration and eternal destiny of humans.

It is one of the reasons why the Reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of God is so important, and

Reformed people, Reformed Christians should be ashamed of themselves if they

adopt the mindset of those who are non and anti -Reformed,

who act as if we can play mind games with people to trick them into the kingdom or

something.

I mean, this is not just Arminians who do this, this is Reformed people who imitate Arminians.

That's a sobering statement, Chris.

Yeah, I'll just say this.

Those who will not speak out on abortion or who see that

abolition and equal protection are required by scripture but don't want to say that publicly, especially from

the pulpit, they lack faith in God.

They ultimately are giving into the fear of man, which is a sin.

We are to fear God, not man.

If we fear Jesus Christ and Him alone, we have no reason to fear man.

And so if we fear God, we will obey God.

Because again, we're going to stand before Jesus on the Day of Judgment, and we will give an account for everything done in the body,

whether good or evil.

And when I stand before Jesus, I don't want the blood of these children on my hands.

I want to do everything I can to fight to protect their lives.

Now, obviously, there is a temptation to compromise.

When you see the outright insanity and satanic

worldview of the left and people out of fear say, we can't

allow these people to be re -elected over and over again.

We've got to keep Republicans in office, and we've got to have more Republicans elected to office.

They act as if these things are the ultimate cure behind the

satanic insanity that we see.

And they're really not trusting in a sovereign God to

honor obedient disciples.

Amen.

And obviously, I'm not speaking like a hyper -Calvinist who believes that we are totally

passive in everything and that God just does everything without using the means that he

himself ordained.

He uses us, not only to proclaim the gospel, but to be beacons

of light and truth and integrity in all matters.

So it's really, when it boils down to it, a lack of trust that God will do the right thing if we

obey him, correct?

Amen.

It's the same reason why we preach the gospel.

I mean, we preach a message that is offensive to this lost and dying world.

We preach Christ crucified, and that is a stumbling block to all people.

But we preach that message because it's the only message that can save souls.

And the power of salvation is not in me as the preacher or in them as the hearer.

The power of salvation is in the gospel, and the Holy Spirit of God uses his word

and his gospel to transform hearts and lives.

You know, I said a moment ago, the problem with pastors who won't stand up on this issue is that, number one, they fear

man.

Number two, they don't fear God enough.

They don't believe in the sovereignty of God, at least not practically, when it comes to this matter.

Listen, Chris, God has blessed my church since I have stood so clearly

for the abolition of abortion.

There was some fear by some people that, hey, if you

stand too boldly for this, then people aren't going to want to come to your church because you're going to

be—.

I was slandered in the media.

I mean, if you Google my name and look what The Rolling Stones and The New York Times and The Washington Post and everyone has said about me,

I mean, I'm the hillbilly Baptist preacher who wants to put women in the electric chair for

trying to have bodily autonomy, right?

I mean, they're going to present me in the worst way possible.

But the amazing thing is Christian people came to our church saying, we want to belong to a church that is

standing for the word of God.

We want to be under the ministry of a pastor who is not ashamed of the gospel.

And part of this gospel is standing for the sanctity of human life without exception or compromise.

I got to tell you, Chris, our church here in Livingston has been exploding ever since we took a

very bold and public stand for abolition.

And I don't regret it one bit.

You know why?

Because God is sovereign.

And Jesus said, I will build my church.

And that's Jesus who builds the church, not me.

I preach his gospel and he saves souls.

That's how it works.

I don't need to manipulate people or to hide the ball or to mask the gospel.

Now, I want to preach the gospel as clearly and as publicly and as openly

without compromise as I possibly can, because it is the pure gospel of Jesus

Christ, which changes hearts and which saves souls.

And I've seen it happen many times before.

And I've ministered for years on sidewalks outside of abortion clinics.

And, Chris, I have seen people bound and determined to murder their own child, come out of that abortion clinic

broken and in tears and asking God to forgive them for ever considering the murder of their

own child.

And I've watched them walk away from the abortion clinic and embrace that child as a gift from God.

People who just before that were furious with me for calling out to them and asking them

not to murder their child.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Romans 116 is true.

And we need to have faith in God that if we will obey what he clearly commands us to do in his word, he

ensures the success of his gospel.

The harvest is plentiful.

The problem is the laborers are few, according to Luke chapter 10, verse 2.

Yes.

People who are consumed with popularity because

by having more people on our side and defending

righteousness and opposing evil, that is what the

solution is.

So we've got to make sure whatever we are saying or doing is palpable

and acceptable to the greatest number

that we can possibly conjure up by changing in some way, altering or softening the message or the

activities that we're involved in.

That is not what Jesus did.

It's interesting that we have that account in John 6 when

he thinned out the herd of people who were following him by speaking an

unpopular truth that basically salvation wasn't in their hands.

No one can come to him unless it is given to them by the Father.

So if Jesus was more concerned about truth than numbers in the crowd,

then we have to be too.

And even if Republicans lose elections by us being firm and bold about

the truth, God will ultimately bring about his purposes, and

he is not dependent upon us.

And people fail to realize, even someone like Sean Hannity,

we've got to soften our opposition to abortion so

good solid so -called Republicans will keep getting elected.

Well, when you elect soft Republicans into office, when is anything going to

change for the better?

You're going to just perpetuate what is going on now, am I right?

I mean, this doesn't solve the problem by putting people who are inadequate in office because

they're more appealing to those who hate the conservative ideal,

am I right?

I mean, what good does it do to elect Republicans who are committed to keeping abortion legal for women?

What good is that?

When you think about how we ended slavery in this nation, the politicians did not

end slavery.

OK, I mean, I know ultimately we fought a civil war in this, but you have to understand the

people who stood for the abolition of slavery were Christian ministers of the gospel.

William Wilberforce labored for years, about 30 years of his life.

He labored for the abolition of the slave trade and slavery itself in the British Empire.

Christian pastors in the United States of America labored for years to end abortion.

And there are very few examples of abolitionist politicians in America prior to the Civil War.

I mean, there are a few notable exceptions such as John Quincy Adams, but they were marginalized.

They were they were rejected by the political establishment of their day.

What we have to realize, our savior is not in Washington, D .C.

He is in heaven at the right hand of the father and he is sovereign and he is the one who has

the ability to destroy evil.

He is the one who is sovereign over the heavens and the earth that he created.

The politicians are not going to rescue this nation.

Only the gospel of Jesus Christ will.

Now, we need to elect godly and good politicians.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm not discouraging Christians from running for political office.

We need that.

But we need Christians in political office who will not back down from the truth

of God's word.

And what could be more important than protecting innocent human life in the womb?

And we have to go in.

If we won't protect them, what will we protect?

What will we conserve?

Right.

We have to go to our final break.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

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I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

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Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and

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I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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We're now back with Brian Gunter.

We have a question from Eric in Athol, Idaho, A

-T -H -O -L, sorry if I'm mispronouncing that city.

He says, what separates your position on equal protection and, say, live action, which

also claims abortion is murder?

Yeah, that's interesting.

You know, I've heard Lila Rose talk about equal protection, but

unless I'm unaware of it, I have not heard Lila Rose

clearly explain where she stands on the issue of

holding a woman accountable for abortion.

I do remember she once on a podcast.

I think it's called the Whatever Podcast.

It's run by a group of secularists, but she was on that podcast, and I think she said at

some level the woman should be culpable, but I don't know if

Lila would affirm equal protection under the law, meaning that the same lives that protect born

persons should also protect preborn persons.

I hope that Lila comes around to a fully abolitionist and equal protection position.

My understanding, having observed her from afar, I don't know her personally, is that

she sees that the woman should be somewhat culpable, but not as

culpable as everyone who participates in the abortion.

If her position has changed, I rejoice in that.

But I think somewhat like Scott Klusendorf, she's taking a bit of a modified position that is not

truly abolitionist.

But I hope that, like me, she continues to move toward abolition, and I

hope to see the day that she is in full agreement with us on this.

Okay, we have Eduardo in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

He says, I have heard that former Planned Parenthood employee

and pro -abortionist Abby Johnson

was, after coming to Christ, an

incrementalist and now has turned to the position that you

hold as an abolitionist.

Is that true?

You know, I think Abby, in principle,

embraces the concept of equal protection.

I don't know if she fully embraces abolition, because I have heard her argue in favor of

incrementalism before.

It's interesting.

I first met Abby Johnson when I asked her to come and speak at a fundraiser for a pregnancy center that I founded

here in Louisiana.

And I met her, and I told her this was in September

of 2021, and I told her that we were working on introducing a bill the following spring in the Louisiana

legislature that became HB 813, and we were going to promote an outright ban on abortion,

abolition, and equal protection under the law.

And I remember that she scolded me privately when we were

talking, that you can't do that, that's going too far, and that would prosecute women.

And so I thought Abby would fully reject it when we came out with HB 813, but I was

surprised to see her on Twitter rebuking Louisiana Right to Life, the organization in my state that

I used to work with, and she was saying basically if you believe the

child in the womb is a person, then you have to hold mothers accountable if they murder that person.

And she seemed to full stop support equal protection under the law and

holding mothers who willfully abort their children accountable for murder under the law.

So I was actually shocked when I saw that.

I don't know if Abby would embrace any form of incrementalism, though.

That's a question that would need to be asked of her.

So I don't know that she's fully come around to abolition, but she has certainly changed her position when it comes

to whether or not mothers should be culpable for willfully aborting their children.

She, in fact, affirms that now.

Well, we are out of time.

I've definitely got to have you back, Brian, and my studio door is always open to you.

Look forward to many future interviews with you.

I want to remind our listeners of your church website, FBCLivingstonLAforLos

Angeles.

I'm sorry, for Louisiana.

For Louisiana.

Don't accuse us of that, Chris.

We love our brothers and sisters in Christ in Los Angeles, but Louisiana is not Los

Angeles.

I just want to be clear.

FBCLivingstonLAforLouisiana .org.

And also, don't forget about the website for EndAbortionNow.

EndAbortionNow .com.

EndAbortionNow .com.

I was so thrilled with your participation today, Brian, and please come back.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.