December 5, 2023 Show with Brian Gunter on “Has Pro-life, Evangelical Christian, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson Betrayed the Cause to Rescue the Unborn from Slaughter?”

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of December 2023.

Today is day number two of our discussions on rescuing unborn children from infanticide.

Yesterday, we had a representative of the pro -life movement, Scott Klusendorf, on the program, and today we're having a departure from what has been known as the pro -life ideology, and we're going to be specifically addressing something in contrast known as the abolitionist movement.

And to do so, we have our esteemed guest today, Brian Gunter, pastor of First Baptist Church in Livingston, Louisiana, and a passionate abortion abolitionist activist and spokesman.

And today we're going to be addressing primarily as pro -life evangelical Christian, Republican, and new house speaker,

Mike Johnson, betrayed the cause to rescue the unborn from slaughter.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Brian Gunter.

Thank you so much, Chris, for having me. I'm excited to be here with you. And if anybody has a question you'd like to ask

Pastor Brian, you could submit it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could readily understand when discussing abortion that that may evoke questions from people who have intensely personal, private, and painful experiences over which they want to ask a question.

So we understand that and we will honor your request to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

First of all, please tell our listeners about First Baptist Church of Livingston, Louisiana. Yeah, First Baptist Church is located in Livingston, Louisiana, about halfway between the cities of Baton Rouge and Hammond.

So Chris, I'm about 20 miles east of my state capital in Baton Rouge, and I am not originally from this part of Louisiana.

I come from the Alexandria area. But the Lord called me to pastor

First Baptist Livingston back in the beginning of 2022, and I've been here a little over a year and a half with my family.

I've been in ministry for 18 years now, serving as a pastor, and I just love the church here.

I'm an expositional preacher. I'm currently leading First Baptist Livingston through a study of the 1689

Baptist Confession of Faith to consider that to be adopted as our church's statement of faith.

We are historically a Southern Baptist Convention Church, but we have great concerns about the direction of the

Southern Baptist Convention, and we believe what Baptists used to believe.

And we have not left our heritage of believing all of Scripture, believing the five solas of the

Reformation. We believe Scripture is our final authority, and then all our doctrine has to flow from that.

So that's my conviction as a pastor, and that's also the conviction of our church body. And I highly recommend, by the way, perhaps even especially,

I recommend to Southern Baptists listening who are not Calvinist, who are not soteriologically

Reformed, I strongly urge you to get a hold of a book by Tom Nettles titled,

By His Grace and For His Glory. And I am sure that many non -Calvinist and even vehemently anti -Calvinist

Baptists will be utterly shocked to discover that some of the men they claim as their greatest heroes from history were indeed thoroughgoing

Calvinists, and in fact the entirety of the leadership who founded the

Southern Baptist Convention were thoroughgoing five -point Calvinists, which is why there exists an organization called the

Founders Ministries or Founders Movement, which is made up of sovereign grace -believing

Southern Baptists who are trying to restore those beliefs to the Southern Baptist Convention, which dominated that convention in the 19th century.

But anyway, we have a tradition here on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest we have that guest give a summary of their salvation story that would include the kind of religious upbringing, if any, in which they were raised and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So why don't you give us a summary of your story?

Well, I actually grew up in church. I was a Baptist before I was a Christian, if you catch what

I'm saying. And so, yeah, I grew up in the small town of Forest Hill, Louisiana, and my home church is a small church there called

Pisgah Baptist Church, and that is where I was reared in the faith and have a lot of good memories of that church and a lot of people to this day that I love dearly and who dearly love me.

And I came to faith in Christ. I was at Vacation Bible School, a very

Southern Baptist ministry, and I was 10 years old and I had a

Sunday school teacher. Her name was Miss, excuse me, a VBS teacher. Her name was Miss Phoebe, and she explained to me that when

Christ went to the cross, he paid for my sins, that the reason that the Lord had to die on the cross was because of the sins that I had committed.

And for the first time in my life, although I had heard the gospel preached for the first time in my life,

I understood that Jesus died to pay for my sin. And it just crushed me with not only the weight of my sin, but the suffering that my sin had caused for Christ.

And I was very convicted and I felt, you know,

I'm guilty of the death of the son of God. And I and I felt so convicted over that, that you could obviously tell that the

Lord was was working in my heart. And so I met with my pastor and he better explain the gospel to me.

And I repented of my sins and placed my faith in Christ. And I was baptized at 10 years old. There was a period of time in my life, would have been my ninth and 10th grade years in high school, that I tried to stray from the

Lord by, you know, partying and doing the things that you do in high school to try to fit in.

And I went to a church summer camp, also a very Southern Baptist place to be in my youth group.

We went to a church summer camp and the camp pastor was preaching through the book of James. And when he went through James one and two about being not only listeners, but doers of the word.

And he talked about how faith without works is dead. And I realized that I was harboring unrepentant sin, at least trying to.

I was very conflicted about it. And I realized that I was a big hypocrite trying to be a

Christian and trying to do things that I knew were wrong. And I repented and I realized that if I was going to follow

Christ, that that I had to be fully committed to Christ, you know,

I couldn't be halfway committed. And so it was through that this was just before I turned 16 years old.

It was through that that I began to get really serious about my faith and began to study the

Bible and through a series of events and opportunities being asked to teach and preach.

I started preaching at 16 years old, which was probably too young, but nonetheless, that's what happened.

And I would supply preach and teach when

I had opportunities. And then on my 19th birthday, I was called as a pastor, an associate pastor in my home church.

And I have been in pastoral ministry ever since. Three years later, I was called to be the senior pastor of another church.

And I have been preaching every Sunday and Wednesdays for the past 18 years.

And I'm now 37 years old and God has blessed my ministry. And I'm just so thankful to be called to serve the

Lord in pastoral ministry. It's a blessing. How did you specifically come to discover and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace known as Reformed Theology?

Yes, so I had Dr. Chuck Quarles as my Greek professor at Louisiana College, and I didn't realize that he was

Reformed. He didn't really in the classroom express his convictions on the doctrines of grace, but he required me to do exegesis.

And that'll make you into a believer in the doctrines of grace if you'll just deal with the word of God and say.

As long as you're honest about what you're exegeting. Yeah, and so please understand if you're not

Reformed, I say that in a little bit of jest, but in all sincerity, it was my study of scripture. So I had to do an exegetical paper on Ephesians chapter one, verses three to 13.

And when I worked through that passage, I broke down and said, I have been wrong. The Bible teaches sovereign grace.

The Bible teaches unconditional election. I am not responsible for my salvation.

God is, ultimately speaking, and I would not have come to Christ unless God had first changed my heart.

And I realized that this is something that God had purposed and planned before the foundation of the world. And I just stopped fighting against what

I was reading in the Bible. I was trying to explain passages, explain away passages in scripture. And finally,

I just embraced what it said. And that was early on in my ministry.

I was about 21 years old at the time. And ever since then, I have believed and preached the doctrines of grace.

And I just tell people I'm a Baptist, you know, I believe what Charles Haddon Spurgeon believed. And so I'm not strange.

I don't have weird theology. I fully embrace and affirm the 1689 Baptist confession of faith, which is what the majority of Baptists throughout our history believed.

Majority doesn't mean it's right, but it is a good argument that I'm not strange. I am just a

Baptist, historically speaking. Well, I have to confess, I do know a lot of strange

Reformed Baptists, but that's another story. Yes, I do, too. In fact, quite a number of people would put me in that category for certain.

And by the way, let me also quickly ask you how you realized that God had placed a call upon your life to become a pastor.

So it was through the confirmation of church leadership. I mean, there was the desire to preach.

My pastor actually had asked me to share my testimony of how just before I turned 16, how

God had really convicted me over my sin. And he could see how I began to be much more serious about my faith and studying the word of God.

We were riding back from camp and I was just reading my Bible and just was constantly in scripture. And he's like, what's going on?

You know, normally when kids are on a youth trip, they're goofing up in the back of the church van and I'm back there just reading the

Bible intently. And I just told him I just realized I have so much to learn. And I was just convicted that I needed to be more serious in my walk with Christ.

And he said, well, why don't you share that with the church on Sunday? And then he then he decided he said,

I'm going to I'm going to give you the sermon time, take as much time as you need. So I preached a 30 minute sermon, and this was actually just before my 16th birthday,

I was still 15 at the time. I don't recommend allowing 15 year olds in your pulpit, pastors. But but anyways,

God, God sovereignly protected me from preaching any sort of heresy. And I basically just explained what

I had learned from the pastor from the book of James. And I just shared that.

And what happened in my church, the leadership in my church, other ordained pastors and deacons said, we believe

God's called you to preach. He's gifted you. And so there was a period of, you know,

I was allowed to teach them Sunday school classes and build a pulpit from time to time. And that grew into more and more until finally on my 19th birthday, my home church called me to be an associate pastor and ordained me to pastoral ministry.

Wow. Praise God. Well, I want to make sure I want to let our listeners know about something that I forgot to mention at the outset.

That if you live in or near Livingston, Louisiana, or you're passing through or you have family, friends and loved ones near there, please visit the website of First Baptist Church of Livingston, Louisiana, which is

FBC Livingston L .A. for Louisiana dot org

FBC for First Baptist Church Livingston L .A. dot org.

And God willing, we'll repeat that before the end of the show. Well, I think it would be wise for us now to have you give a description that informs us on the differences between abolitionism, the the ideology that you espouse, that motivates and drives your efforts to rescue unborn children from slaughter and compare and contrast that with the ideology of my guest yesterday,

Scott Klusendorf. And so our listeners will have a greater understanding of why there is a difference in the cause for life in this nation and globally for that matter.

Yeah, thank you, Chris. So I didn't get to listen to all of the interview yesterday with Scott Klusendorf, but I did listen to some of it.

And so I will, as appropriate, try to explain how my position is indeed different from Scott's.

We're going to agree on some things and disagree on others. So the best way,

I believe, to explain abolition, I'd like to quote a friend of mine. He's an attorney,

Bradley Pierce. I think that he has stated this in the most succinct way possible.

And Bradley Bradley has explained abolitionists believe that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone.

And what that means is abortion is murder, biblically speaking, abortion is the unjustified taking of an innocent human life.

And it's an intentional act. In abortion, we typically have people, the doctor, if there's a doctor involved, sometimes abortions are self -managed and we'll talk about that more.

But if there's a doctor involved, if there's medical staff, if there's a doctor involved, if there is an industry that is providing abortion pills for the purpose of inducing abortion, the mother and the father who either hire an assassin or who procure medication and manage the abortion themselves, however it takes place, whoever is involved in the act of intentionally killing an innocent child in the womb, they are to one degree or another guilty of homicide under the homicide code.

And if they have full culpability, if they intentionally committed this act, then they would be guilty of murder.

There is homicide that does not rise to the level of murder, and that is a possibility. But generally, those who commit abortion are guilty of murder.

And I believe that the law should treat the innocent life in the womb equally and protect that life equally with born persons.

So I believe that the same laws that protect your life and my life, Chris, those same laws should protect the child in the womb.

And abolitionists believe that we must have equal protection under the law, which, by the way, is what the 14th

Amendment to the U .S. Constitution says that we must do. Abolitionists believe that we must provide pre -born children equal protection under the law so that their lives are protected equally with born persons because they have the same right to life granted to them by God.

Therefore, our laws should equally protect that life from the moment of fertilization, which is sometimes called conception, but scientifically is fertilization.

The moment that the sperm and the egg meets and the child begins to grow from fertilization until natural death with no point in between where there is any variation, we believe that all human life must be equally protected under the law.

That's what an abolitionist believes. And as we confirmed or as I confirmed with you before the program, abolitionists or at least the majority of those with whom you have a great measure of agreement, do not believe that if abortion were to be outlawed and all those who would be participants in the murder of an unborn child would be rightly prosecuted and imprisoned and so on, that you do not believe in retroactive prosecution of everyone known in the

United States who has had an abortion and it could be 30 years ago. Not only do

I not believe in retroactively punishing those who commit abortion, not only do

I not believe it, but the constitution of pretty much every state that I'm aware of, certainly the

Louisiana constitution in my home state, as well as the US constitution prohibit ex post facto laws.

That's after the fact. I cannot make it a crime. I cannot punish you for a crime for something that you did in the past, which was legal when you committed that act.

So women who had abortions at times when it was legal for them to have it, we cannot retroactively punish them, not under our federal constitution or pretty much every state constitution that I'm aware of, but also that would be immoral.

Our laws permitted women to murder their children. We are guilty of having unjust laws.

We can't go back and prosecute for something that we permitted them by law to do. That would be morally wrong and it would also be unconstitutional.

We need to change our laws. And from the moment our laws are changed, each life will be equally protected under law.

Now, if you could, before we go to our first break, I understand you wanted to voice some pushback to Scott Klusendorf over some of what you heard him say yesterday.

Well, you know, as I listen to Scott and to be fair, I didn't hear everything that Scott said. So if I miss something, that's my fault, not his.

But what I heard could have led the listener to the impression of if we go after the abortion industry and shut down abortion clinics, then that would be sufficient to solve the problem of abortion.

He talked about going after the source of abortion. But the problem is that now after the

Dobbs decision, which struck down Roe v. Wade, now in the United States of America, the majority of abortions are self -managed abortions where mothers are ordering the abortion pill online, having it shipped to their door, through the mail, and then they are self -managing an abortion at home.

So when I heard Scott talking about going after the abortionists and those in the abortion industry, my question was, well, what about when the mother is her own abortionist?

And that's the majority of abortions in America now. And specifically, so this was revealed in a number of studies that have been done after the

Dobbs decision. The first one that I noticed, it was run in the New York Times, and it was citing an article that was published

November 1st of 2022, which was only a few months after Roe had been overturned in the

Dobbs case. And they were saying that the abortion rate nationally has only decreased about two percent.

And in some states, the abortion rate has actually increased after Roe was overturned.

And it's cited in that report from the Journal of American Medical Association that the state with the highest rate of increase of abortions after Roe was overturned was the state of Louisiana.

My home state, Louisiana, leads the nation in increases of abortions after the

Dobbs decision. And the reason they cite it is, so you need to understand, we had three abortion clinics open and operating in the state of Louisiana immediately prior to Roe being overturned last year.

We had abortion clinics in New Orleans. We had one in New Orleans, one in Baton Rouge, and one in Shreveport, Louisiana.

And I have ministered outside of those abortion clinics for years now on many different occasions. And when those abortion clinics closed because our trigger laws went into effect, which made it a crime to operate an abortion clinic and made it a crime for anyone in the medical profession to induce abortion, what many people did not realize is there were also laws in Louisiana which specifically gave immunity to the woman who has an abortion.

And now that the abortion pill is easily accessible via the mail, you can order the abortion pill in the mail, these women simply turn to mail -order abortion pills, and we actually have more abortions in Louisiana after the abortion clinics closed down than we did while they were open because abortion is cheaper now, it's more easily accessible, you don't have to go through a crowd of abolitionists and pro -lifers praying and trying to minister outside of the abortion clinic.

You can do it in the privacy of your own home. Every mailbox is a location where you can secure an abortion pill legally, and you can have the abortion at home, flush the baby down the toilet, and that's perfectly legal in all 50 states in the

United States of America. And my position is that should not be legal. It should not be legal for mothers and fathers to murder their own children, whether inside or outside the womb.

And I want to also let our listeners know that my guest today, Brian Gunter, works closely in this effort to end infanticide in the

United States with our mutual friend Jeff Durbin, who heads

End Abortion Now. He's also a teaching elder at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, where my longtime friend for decades,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, also serves as an elder and pastor.

But tell us how you first became aware of Jeff and his labors with End Abortion Now.

Well, I mean, I was, so I followed Dr. James White for many years,

I think about 15 years ago. The same time that I embraced reform theology, I started following Dr.

White's ministry. And that's actually how you discovered who I was, because you were watching my stand -up comedy routines on the debates.

Yeah, that's right. So when you reached out to me, you're like, hey, I don't know if you know me, Pastor Brian. I was like, of course,

I know Chris Orenson. I was like, you're the guy cracking all the jokes before Dr. White debates people. I've heard you many times over the years.

So anyways, I had followed Dr. White's ministry. I didn't know him personally, but I had followed his ministry, listened to the dividing line regularly and had for some years.

And I knew that Dr. White was working closely with Jeff Durbin. And so I started listening to Apologia Radio and listening to Jeff's work in abortion now.

And I really appreciated Jeff because he embraced abolition, which I agreed with.

But he did it in a way where he was trying to speak to people in the pro -life movement, saying you need to be consistent and you need to support equal protection under the law for children in the womb.

And he specifically was saying that we should not be supporting bills that Jeff has called bills of partiality.

And he's using a biblical term there, the Bible forbids partiality, namely in the book of James. It talks about not being partial to the rich man over the poor man.

So essentially, we cannot treat human beings differently. They're equally created in the image of God.

And the child in the womb has to be equally protected under law. And we can't pass laws that say, well, you can murder a child before they reach, say, 12 weeks, 16 weeks gestation, but not after.

As a Christian, I cannot consistently say that's a human life in the womb.

And I'm going to advocate for a law that says you can legally murder that person, just not also these.

As a Christian, I can't support any law that makes murder legal. I don't believe we should permit murder.

Again, being an abolitionist means that murdering anyone should be legal for everyone. And so Jeff was making this argument.

And I was like, man, this is I'm listening to him online. And I'm like, man, this guy, he's right.

And so I in my mind, this was back in about 2019. I began to say, yeah,

I can't support these bills because I had lobbied for incremental bills in my state legislature. I've been working in the pro -life movement.

And I said, I was wrong to do that. I began to realize that that that if a law permits any murder, that's a law that we shouldn't be supporting.

So I embraced equal protection and abolition. But it was in 2021 that I finally met

Jeff Durbin. I was at the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville. And Jeff was talking to a group of pastors.

And I walked up during the conversation. And I think it was about maybe six pastors. And they were asking questions.

They were asking Jeff questions about abolition. And I'm just standing in the back of the crowd listening. And I listened for probably half an hour.

And when they were all done, they walked away. And I'm standing there and it's just Jeff and I at this point. And he introduces himself and says, hey,

I'm Jeff Durbin. You know, and I said, hey, I'm Brian Gunner. I'm a pastor from Louisiana. And he said, do you have any questions for me?

And I said, no, you just answered them all. And I told him who I was. And I said, you know,

I've worked in the pro -life movement for years. I'm conflicted because I really believe in equal protection and abolition.

And I've been thinking for quite a while now to reach out to you. And when I saw you here, I wanted to hear what you had to say.

And I was going to ask you the very questions that these other pastors were asking you. And I just told them

I'm ready to work for abolition in my state of Louisiana. And so we began working together on a bill of abolition that was introduced the following spring in 2022 in the

Louisiana legislature. That was House Bill 813. That was really historic because it's the first time that any bill of abolition and equal protection has passed any legislative body.

And so the bill passed committee with a seven to two vote and it was defeated on the House floor.

And there's really quite a story about that, how that happened and that I won't tell right now. But that's how

I started working with Jeff. I listened to him online as he argued for abolition. I was convinced of his position.

And then once we had met in person, we decided to begin working together. Okay, we're going to our first commercial break right now.

If you have a question, you can send it to chrisorensen at gmail .com. And we'll be right back.

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That's royaldiadem .com, mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Brian Gunter, pastor of First Baptist Church in Livingston, Louisiana, who is also a leading voice in the abortion abolitionist movement.

If you have a question, please submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Always give your first name, city and state, and country of residence unless it's a very personal and private question, you may remain anonymous.

Just to give credit where credit is due to Scott Klusendorf, you agreed that it was a pleasure to hear that he, at the very least, does believe that anyone and any woman included who has an abortion, even if it's through the abortion pill, there needs to be some form of punishment, which you said is a very rare position in the pro -life movement, didn't you?

Yeah, I mean, I do want to say that Scott's position does deviate from the pro -life movement generally, in that generally the pro -life movement has stated they don't want any punishment whatsoever for a mother who commits an abortion, even if she did it 100 % of her own choosing, even if she did it on her own with a self -managed abortion, no one was even pressuring her.

They don't think there's any circumstance in the pro -life movement generally where a woman should be punished for having an abortion, no matter if it's the 10th abortion she's had.

Even if she publicly laughs, jokes, and brags about how many abortions she's had.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the pro -life movement generally has stated even the shout your abortion crowd, they are victims and they should not be punished for abortion.

So I just want to say Scott does hold a different position, but he is not, and he doesn't describe himself as an abolitionist.

He is not an abolitionist. His position is different from mine. And one of the areas that I'd like to push back in and what

I heard yesterday was Scott talked about, there should be culpability for the mother who willfully and knowingly murders her own child by abortion, but it shouldn't be the same level of culpability as say an abortionist who commits the procedure of surgical abortion.

My first issue there is we are talking about punishing people for murder.

And I do not believe that someone who is guilty of murder should be punished less than another person who is equally guilty and culpable for that murder.

Like a woman who hires a hitman to kill her husband. Yeah, like he might. I heard him say, well, the woman doesn't have the same level of understanding and knowledge of the abortion that the abortion doctor does.

But in all respect, Scott, that is not at all how it works when someone commits murder, say with a firearm.

I mean, there have been plenty of times where someone who has committed murder with a firearm and they might not be able to fully explain the physiological reasons why firing a bullet into someone's body can cause them to die.

A doctor might be able to explain that, well, you know, the bullet goes in and it might sever a major artery or hit a major organ and the blood pressure drops and the person loses consciousness and they bleed out and they die.

And there's medical terminology that can be used to describe that. It doesn't matter if they can explain the abortion procedure or whatever the murder is like a doctor can.

The question is, does she understand that she is taking an action which will directly result in the killing of an innocent human life?

And if the answer to that question is yes, then she is a murderer. And I do not believe that anyone should be punished at a lesser level for murder if they are culpable of that murder.

And certainly most women who have abortions are. Now, I do not believe women who are forced to have an abortion.

I'm talking about legal coercion. I'm talking about like a sex trafficker who threatens the life or serious bodily injury of a woman who will not have an abortion that happens.

And in those cases, we would prosecute the sex trafficker for murder in forcing women to undergo abortion and not the woman who was coerced.

But when we're talking about a woman who knowingly, intentionally, willfully chooses to murder her own child, that woman is before God a murderer and she should be treated as guilty under the law for committing homicide.

And I really my main concern here is I don't believe that Scott would argue for a lower level of culpability for a mother who murders her child after that child is born.

I heard you mention this yesterday, Chris, about murdering someone after being born.

Imagine the abortion failed. The woman attempted an abortion and the abortion failed. The baby is born alive and then the mother suffocates the child.

That's exactly what Scott was talking about Kermit Gosnell doing. And Scott doesn't have any problem with Kermit Gosnell being prosecuted for murder.

Neither do I. That's what he needs. Kermit Gosnell needs the death penalty, by the way, but we won't get into that right now.

Nonetheless, we agree that a mother or anyone who intentionally murders a newborn child should be prosecuted for murder.

What is the difference when the child is in the womb? You see, if we have a lesser punishment for the murder of a child in the womb, what we are saying with our law is that the child in the womb's life will not be equally protected with the child that's been born.

And what we're communicating is, is that the life of the child in the womb is less valuable than the life of the child outside the womb.

And as Christians who believe the Bible, we cannot say that one human life is more valuable than another.

We are equally created in the image of God. And if we believe in the biblical doctrine of the sanctity of human life, we have to also espouse that we must have equal protection under the law for every human being, because every human being has an equal right to life given to them by their creator.

Now, I just want to also let our listeners know that on Wednesday, February 21st, 2024, we have scheduled a debate between Scott Klusendorf and an abolitionist who came highly recommended by my guest,

Brian Gunter, and also his colleague, friend, and comrade in arms in the abolitionist movement,

Jeff Durbin, Jason Storms, who is the national director of Operation Save America.

And just briefly, because we don't want to spend a lot of time away from our main theme, but there has been pushback, there has been feedback, negative feedback from quite a number of self -professed abolitionists who are telling me that what

I have arranged is ridiculous because it's really a debate between an incrementalist and an incrementalist.

This is not a debate between an incrementalist and an abolitionist because they are saying these individuals that Jason Storms does not have an adequate belief system that would warrant him being considered an abolitionist.

And it's interesting that these folks seem to universally believe that you and Jeff Durbin are wonderful, fantastic, vital champions in the cause for the abolitionist movement, rock stars, if you will, and yet they don't think that your discernment over this is adequate because they keep insisting that you're wrong about your endorsement of Jason Storms.

If you could just briefly explain why you believe that he is a completely legitimate choice for this debate on February 21st.

So Jason is a friend of mine. We have only known each other for I think about two years now, so I don't know

Jason extraordinarily well. And nonetheless, I have worked with him and communicated with him over the past few years and know him to be an abolitionist.

Now, there was a clip brought up from a conference that Operation Save America held in the past in the recent past.

I don't know exactly when it was, but it was recently. And at this conference, he had made some remarks that Jason told me himself that he wishes that he had said them better because it could give you the false understanding that Jason supports incremental laws.

So I asked him about it. I said, what is your position on incremental laws? Do you support those?

Please explain to me what's being said here and more fully explain your position.

And Jason told me that he holds the same position that I hold as an abolitionist. So I'm taking my brother's word.

He told me this yesterday. And I would just say if Jason at some point in the past held an incrementalist perspective, the same is also true of me several years ago.

Right. It's only been in the last, I mean, three to five years.

It was kind of a progressive change for me. You know, one thing after the other led me to be being a full blown abolitionist.

By the end of 2021, I was fully committed to being an abolitionist.

But over that time in the years prior, I moved closer and closer to abolition until I fully embraced it.

And I would presume that Jason has had a similar experience. So for what he said in the past,

I don't know that I can fully explain that. Jason can. But what he told me was that he does not believe in incremental laws for the same reason that I don't, because incremental laws specifically permit some abortions while prohibiting others.

And I, as a Bible -believing Christian, cannot agree to support a law which permits any innocent human being from being murdered, permits them to be murdered.

I do not believe that mothers should be granted immunity, blanket immunity, where if they commit abortion, they will have no ability to be prosecuted under the law.

Because again, I believe that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. And bills of what

I prefer to call bills of partiality, because they do not treat persons equally under the law.

What has been called incrementalism, these bills specifically permit some babies to be murdered by their mothers.

And I don't believe that should be the case. Therefore, I don't support incremental laws. Jason told me he agrees with that.

But what he said was there were some lawmakers who both voted for a bill of abolition and equal protection and voted for an incremental bills.

And he said for those lawmakers in certain states that he's been working, where the lawmakers were trying to straddle the fence on both sides of this issue, that he was gracious toward them.

And he wasn't publicly denouncing their votes, but he was privately trying to help them understand that voting for an incremental bill is inconsistent with abolition, and that they should not support incremental bills, and only support bills that actually establish justice by equally protecting all human lives under the law.

So that is the explanation that Jason has given to me. And I'm taking my brother's word that what he told me yesterday is accurate.

And therefore, if he believes those things, and I believe what he told me, then he is an abolitionist.

And by the way, he will be my guest before this planned debate in February. Jason Storms will be on the program on Tuesday, the 26th of December, the day after Christmas, to further explain himself and so on, and all the ministries in which he labors.

We're going to our midway break already, and please be patient with us.

The midway break is a bit longer because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the

FCC requires of Grace Life Radio to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're located.

And we, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. Please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, keeping in mind that our advertisers are absolutely vital and necessary for this program to exist.

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Also, send in your questions to Brian Gunter to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to brian gunter our guest today we are talking about the abolitionist movement and more specifically we are raising some concerns and critiques of mike johnson the new speaker of the house who claims to be not only a born -again believer in christ jesus but a pro -life advocate and yet there is a great sense of betrayal from him that is seen by many who labor for the cause of rescuing unborn children from slaughter and again our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

give us a first name at least city and state and country of residence if you have a question uh briefly uh tell us exactly what you and jeff durbin are doing uh in your labors with and abortion now well um jeff and i and and other abolitionists across the nation i mean there's many of us um we are working together um in states across our nation to introduce bills of abolition and equal protection again abolition is the goal we want to abolish abortion by fully prohibiting all abortion under the law that's abolition and we want to do that by the legal mechanism of equal protection we want to give the uh same right to life well god has given the pre -born child the right to life and we want the law to recognize recognize that the child in the womb has the same right to life as born persons therefore the laws that protect born persons should also protect pre -born persons under the law so we're introducing bills in states across our nation um and there are a number of states i i'm not sure if i know the total number i think it's about um 17 i believe it was last time i heard where we are introducing bills of abolition in the coming year in 2024 so we will be arguing for those bills in various state legislatures across our nation working to end abortion in those states by law by the way i want to make sure our listeners have the website for end abortion now it's very easy to remember and abortion now .com

and abortion now .com and we look forward to hopefully god willing having jeff durbin also join us for an interview in the near future he's going through a lot right now actually adopting uh twin babies and uh keep uh jeff and his wife and family in your prayers um now uh i'm gonna take one uh listener question for now before we go into more of a focused discussion on mike johnson let's see here we have virginia in viroqua wisconsin thank you for having brian on your show i hope you will invite him again to tell what happened in louisiana as they went to vote on the abortion bill specifically the pro -life organization sent a letter to legislators warning them not to vote for abolition of abortion not to vote for equal protection equal justice for children in the womb that story needs to be told so that faithful christians who hold these pro -life groups to account so that faithful christians would hold these pro -life groups to account uh anything you care to say about that that you can and desire to yeah i i'd like to tell a little bit of that story chris so uh we introduced house bill 813 in the louisiana legislature uh in 2022 and uh that bill sailed through committee with a 7 -2 vote and it went to the floor um and you know a week prior to the vote on may 12 2022 uh i had been talking to legislators and out of 105 members of the louisiana house i had counted 72 legislators in the house of representatives in louisiana who had committed to me that they were going to vote in favor of hb 813 abolish abortion in my state but what began to happen um was that the pro -life establishment i like to call them those are the the big organizations in the pro -life movement led by the national right to life committee and in my state led by louisiana right to life an organization that i used to work for uh and had left and and part of my concern when i left was that they uh were rejecting equal protection and abolition and i had begun to embrace that position and so um anyways uh we introduced this bill and we started getting all this pushback and i started getting phone calls from church leaders and legislators who told me that congressman mike johnson was contacting them telling them to no longer support the bill uh jeff and i released a video um recently on the apology of studios youtube channel and you can go there and watch this expose on mike johnson and i name names uh and give facts much of this i have written documentation of that i have not released but i have all of the proof that i need that what i said in that video is in fact true um and so i explain how mike johnson uh began to lobby state legislators as a u .s

congressman he began to lobby the members of the louisiana house to vote against this bill which some of them had issued public endorsements of 41 members of the house had actually um co - sponsored and he got all but two republicans to vote to kill the bill that is the influence and power of congressman mike johnson over louisiana legislators um mike called me directly and he told me that it was a bad bill uh and he explained essentially um that if a bill to abolish abortion were passed in louisiana that it would seriously hurt republicans abilities to get re -elected to office and he told me that he agrees with the concept of equal protection but it's just not the right time and i told mike i said um when where in the bible does it say that it's the wrong time to do the right thing that we should ever delay justice the bible talks about giving justice speedily to victims and we need to speedily give justice to these children in the womb mike went on to warn me that if i move forward with uh this bill of abolition and if danny mccormick the legislator who was offering the bill if danny and i did not pull the bill that it would have a serious impact on our futures and our careers and that there would be decision makers as uh as mike told me uh who would uh be very upset with me and that it would quote severely damage my ministry platform in the state legislature and beyond um those were uh those were sobering words coming from a powerful u .s

congressman who is now speaker of the house of representatives where he told me as a pastor in louisiana to stop fighting to abolish abortion in my state mike johnson um has always called himself pro -life um but he opposes equal protection for children in the womb mike called me uh recently after this video came out um and he was obviously very upset with me for going public with what happened i sat on this information for 18 months uh hoping that mike would repent and uh mike called me and he was very upset with me and i asked mike a very simple question that he refused to answer i said mike should abortion be legal for women and he refused to answer the question and as the speaker of the house of representatives uh mike should have an answer to that question the answer should be no but if he says no abortion should not be legal for women then the next question has to be okay so if a woman commits an abortion what should the appropriate punishment be right and mike doesn't want to go down that that line because he knows that politically it is unpopular to actually treat the child in the womb as a person and equally defend their right to life under law you see we can say we believe the child in the womb is a person all we want to but actually protecting their life with the same laws that protect our life that is a bridge too far for many republicans um they have made a calculation that we can't save too many babies from abortion if that will cause us to lose elections and so it's really a choice between the lives of children in the womb and winning the next election and the calculation has been made by many republicans including speaker mike johnson who i know personally and for years considered to be a friend they have made the calculation that that fully prohibiting abortion is too politically costly therefore they're unwilling to do it yeah you've even eaten in his home and he's eaten in your home your friendship goes uh way back when he was only a uh state representative correct yeah my family's been in his home yeah you know chris i i love mike i i believe he's my brother in christ um i don't know i don't i don't know how um a brother in christ could do such a thing as fight against equal protection for children in the womb i mean make no mistake about it in fighting to kill house bill 813 it was it was a fight specifically to stop abortion from being prohibited for women so chris let me read the letter that was sent out by the national right to life committee signed by 76 leading pro -life organizations across the nation including louisiana right to life in my state whom i used to work for this this letter which was led by national right to life committee it's entitled an open letter to state lawmakers from america's leading pro -life organizations and you can find it on the nrlc .org

website they state we state unequivocally that we do not support any measure seeking to criminalize or punish women and we stand firmly opposed to include such penalties in legislation now that's really a dishonest statement chris i'm not trying to criminalize women for being women they left out the key part they stand against criminalizing or punishing women for prenatal homicide for murdering their own child in the womb they believe that abortion should be legal for women that is whether they want to admit it or not whether they like it being stated that clearly or not the national right to life committee and the 76 organizations that signed this letter they want abortion to be legal for women but illegal for the abortion industry so they want to shut down abortion clinics but they do not want to make it illegal for a mother to self -manage an abortion at home and i would add that is the majority of abortions in the united states of america today they want the majority of abortions in america to remain legal because they stand fully opposed to making it a crime for a mother to murder her child in the womb and by the way virginia and varroquo wisconsin uh you have won a free new american standard bible so if you would please provide for us your mailing address so that cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com

can ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us and we also thank nasbible .com

the publishers of the nasb for always providing free nas bibles for our first -time questioners uh going back to a theological issue i think that is very relevant to the behavior of mike johnson and every other uh so -called pro -life person who compromises on things out of fear that what they are trying to move forward will offend too many people and prevent the re -election of republican candidates we've been hearing quite frequently ad nauseam infinitum from sean hannity on fox news chastising republicans who are running for office for being too harsh in their anti -abortion rhetoric demanding that they begin offering options like rape and incest as valid reasons for women to murder their children and on and on we go uh are we to be incrementalists when it comes to uh the so -called a gender reassignment of little children uh by parents are we to say okay we don't want you to use surgery to do it but we'll allow the medications the pharmaceutical methods of of so -called changing your gender we know that nobody can change their gender but and on and on we could go i mean we could even go back to germany uh in prior to world war ii uh when there was a very prevalent uh attitude of anti -semitism of jewish hatred in germany i mean this wasn't invented by hitler but let's say someone was uh seeking to run for chancellor of germany in a in an election and uh they knew of this prevalent anti -semitism that existed in germany so we gotta we gotta say look we're against the complete extermination of jews but we will allow uh the the imprisonment of jews we will allow the the destruction of their places of businesses will allow them to be driven out of their homes you know that kind of thing i mean am i making sense here does anybody stand for this kind of incrementalism when in reality the murder the torturous and brutal and barbaric murder of children in the womb is a far more serious crime than merely having a a bigotry or a hatred towards someone yeah we don't we don't believe in incrementalism when it comes to anything else yet the pro -life movement by and large believes that we should only prohibit some abortions and not others and let me also clarify here chris they're not simply doing this as an issue of strategy this letter from the national right to life committee signed by 76 major pro -life organizations across america this letter this letter states they never support making abortion illegal for women no matter if it's politically feasible in their opinion or not they oppose prohibiting abortion for women they support legalized self -managed abortion for women and they call themselves pro -life that is their position they they don't simply have a different approach they have a different end goal and it's ultimately because they have a different worldview than the christian worldview we as believers in scripture we believe that we must defend human life that there is no greater thing that god has given us than the sanctity of human life there is no greater thing that our laws must protect than the sanctity of human life and therefore we have to equally protect all human life that is what god requires us to do and because of that biblical christian worldview we say i cannot permit i cannot allow i cannot condone any human to be murdered and the child in the womb is a human being therefore murdering that human being should be illegal for anyone including the child's own mother and so there's really no way to get around the biblical truth that abortion is murder and all abortion should be prohibited all murder should be prohibited by law including abortion i want to just share one scripture chris sure proverbs 24 verse 10 through 12 it says if you faint in the day of adversity your strength is small i just want to make a comment here we live in a day of adversity this nation is fighting over the issue of abortion there's no doubt we would all recognize that abortion is a major controversial issue in our day and the bible says if you faint in the day of adversity your strength is small that's a nice way of saying don't be a coward stand up for what you know is right and what god requires and then comes the command proverbs 24 verse 11 rescue those who are being taken away to death hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter i've heard pastors say things like that's not my responsibility to try to end abortion i'm just supposed to pastor my church and preach the gospel the gospel requires you to rescue those who are perishing and hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter god commands you to do that in proverbs 24 verse 11 that is a part of the christian worldview defending innocent human life and then it says behold if you say we did not know this does not he who weighs the heart perceive it does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it and will he not repay man according to his work chris we're all going to answer to jesus christ on the day of judgment what did you do to protect these children from being murdered in the womb and i want to say this and i say it lovingly but directly men like house speaker mike johnson those legislators who voted to kill hb 813 in louisiana and anyone who voted to kill a bill of equal protection and abolition in many other states where they've been introduced they have the blood of the hands who have been murdered since that vote on their own hands because they are guilty and complicit in allowing abortion to remain legal for women in their state we have to fight against this we cannot settle for allowing these babies to be murdered but not those that is simply unacceptable we cannot compromise on the issue of life if we're willing to compromise with the lives of innocent children then what will we stand upon amen amen preach it brother uh this is at the root for all professing christians who fear saying or doing anything that is unpopular in an unregenerate christ -hating world uh you have pastors and churches and denominations who will not publicly preach the true gospel of repentance you will have pastors totally fearful of uh preaching against sin uh of being very apologetic and timid about preaching against homosexuality and we could go on and on and on and the reason being if you were to press many of them well we have you know hundreds or thousands of people showing up for worship and if we start to be that honest about what the scriptures teach we're going to lose people and those people aren't going to find christ or whatever uh outcome they think is going to occur as if they are in control over the regeneration and eternal destiny of humans uh it's it's really uh it it is one of the reasons why the reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of god is so important and reformed people reformed christians should be ashamed of themselves if they adopt the mindset of those who are non and anti -reformed who act as if that we can play mind games with people to trick them into the kingdom or something i mean this is not this is not just armenians who do this this is reformed people who imitate armenians uh that's a sobering statement chris um yeah i'll just say this those who will not speak out on abortion or who see that abolition and equal protection are required by scripture but don't want to say that publicly especially from the pulpit um they lack faith in god they they ultimately are giving into the fear of man which is a sin we are to fear god not man if we fear jesus christ and him alone we have no reason to fear man and so if we fear god uh we will obey god because again we're going to stand before jesus on the day of judgment and we will give an account for everything done in the body whether good or evil and when i stand before jesus i don't want the blood of these children on my hands i want to do everything i can to fight to protect their lives now obviously there is a temptation to compromise when you see the outright insanity and satanic worldview of the left and people out of fear say we can't allow these people to be re -elected over and over again we've got to keep uh republicans in office and we've got to have more republicans elected to office they act as if these things are the ultimate cure behind the satanic insanity that we see and they're really not trusting in a sovereign god to honor obedient disciples amen and obviously i'm not speaking like a hyper calvinist who believes that we are totally passive in everything and that you know god just does everything without using the means that he himself ordained he uses us and not only to proclaim the gospel but to be beacons of light and truth and integrity in all matters so it's really when it boils down to it a lack of trust that god will do the right thing if we obey him correct amen it's the same reason why we preach the gospel i mean we preach a message that is offensive to this lost and dying world we preach christ crucified and that is a stumbling block to all people but we preach that message because it's the only message that can save souls and the power of salvation is not in me as the preacher or in them as the hearer the power of salvation is in the gospel and the holy spirit of god uses his word and his gospel to transform hearts and lives you know i said a moment ago the the problem with pastors who won't stand up on this issue is that number one they fear man number two they don't fear god enough right they don't believe in the sovereignty of god at least not practically when it comes to this matter listen chris god has blessed my church since i have stood so clearly uh for the abolition of abortion there was some fear um you know by by some people that hey if if you stand too boldly for this um then then people aren't going to want to come to your church because you're going to be i was slandered in the media i mean if you google my name and look what the rolling stones and the new york times and the washington post and everyone has said about me i mean i'm the i'm the hillbilly baptist preacher who wants to put women in the electric chair for for trying to have you know bodily autonomy right i mean they're going to present me in the worst way possible but the amazing thing is christian people came to our church saying we want to belong to a church that is standing for the word of god we we want to be under the ministry of a pastor who is not ashamed of the gospel and part of this gospel is standing for the sanctity of human life without exception or compromise um i gotta tell you chris uh our church here in livingston has been exploding uh ever since we took a very bold and public stand for abolition hallelujah and i don't regret it one bit you know why because god is sovereign amen and jesus said i will build my church and that's jesus who builds the church not i preach his gospel and he saves souls that's how it works i don't need to manipulate people or to hide the ball or to mask the gospel no i want to preach the gospel as clearly and as publicly and as openly without compromise as i possibly can because it is the pure gospel of jesus christ which changes hearts and which saves souls and i've seen it happen many times before and i've ministered for years on sidewalks outside of abortion clinics and chris i have seen people bound and determined to murder their own child come out of that abortion clinic broken and in tears and asking god to forgive them for ever considering the murder of their own child and i've watched them walk away from the abortion clinic and embrace that child as a gift from god people who just before that were furious with me for calling out to them and asking them not to murder their child the gospel is the power of god unto salvation romans 1 16 is true and we need to have faith in god that if we will obey what he clearly commands us to do in his word he ensures the success of his gospel the harvest is plentiful the problem is the laborers are few according to 2 yes uh people who are consumed with a popularity because by having more people on our side in uh defending righteousness and opposing evil uh that is what the the solution is so we've got to make sure whatever we are saying or doing is palpable and uh acceptable uh to the greatest number that we can possibly conjure up by changing in some way altering or softening the message or the activities that we're involved in that is not what jesus did uh it's interesting that we have that account in john 6 uh when uh he he thinned out the herd of people who were following him by speaking an unpopular truth that basically salvation wasn't in their hands no one can come to him unless the it is given to them by the father uh so if jesus was more concerned about truth than numbers in the crowd then we have to be too and even if republicans lose elections uh by us being firm and bold about the truth god will ultimately bring about his purposes and he is not dependent upon us and people fail to realize like even like someone like sean hannity uh we've got to we've got to soften our opposition to abortion so people will get good solid so -called republicans will keep getting elected well what are the what when you elect soft republicans into office when is anything going to change for the better you're going to just perpetuate what is going on now am i right i mean this isn't solve the problem by putting people who are inadequate in office because they're more appealing to those who hate the conservative ideal am i right i mean what good does it do to elect republicans who are committed to keeping abortion legal for women what good is that you think about how we ended slavery in this nation um the politicians did not end slavery okay um i mean i know ultimately we fought a civil war in this but you have to understand the people who stood for the abolition of slavery were christian ministers of the gospel william wilberforce labored for years about 30 years of his life he labored for the abolition of the slave trade and slavery itself in the british empire christian pastors in the united states of america labored for years to end abortion and there are very few examples of abolitionist politicians in america prior to the civil war i mean there are a few notable exceptions such as john quincy adams but they were marginalized they were they were rejected uh by the political establishment of their day what we have to realize our savior is not in washington dc he is in heaven at the right hand of the father and he is sovereign and he is the one who has the ability to destroy evil he is the one who is sovereign over the heavens and the earth that he created the politicians are not going to rescue this nation only the gospel of jesus christ will now we need to elect godly and good politicians don't get me wrong i'm not discouraging christians from from running for political office we need that but we need christians in political office who will not back down from the truth of god's word and what could be more important than protecting innocent human life in the womb and we have again if we won't protect them what will we protect what will we conserve right and we have to go to our final break don't go away we'll be right back hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio .com

where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio .com james white of alpha and omega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

that's ptl bible rebinding .com hello my name is anthony eugenio and i'm one of the pastors at hope reform baptist church in corn new york and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website i want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the iron sharpens iron radio show like i do you can now find it on the apple's itune app by typing iron sharpens iron radio in the search bar you no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work just subscribe on the itunes app and listen to the iron sharpens iron radio show at any time day or night please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that chris arnson has on the show truth is so hard to come by these days so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news subscribe to the iron sharpens iron radio podcast right now and while you're at it you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the youtube page we are dedicated to teaching christian theology from a reformed baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers from keach's catechism and the doctrines of grace to the olivet discourse and the book of leviticus the reform rookie podcast and youtube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth and finally if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith please join us at hope reform baptist church in quorum new york again i'm pastor anthony and thanks for listening if you love iron sharpens iron radio one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers one such faithful advertiser who really believes in what chris arnson is doing is daniel p patafuco serious injury lawyer and christian apologist dan is the president and founder of the historical bible society their mission to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of god they go to various churches schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by mr batafuco demonstrating the reliability of scripture to advance the cause of the gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of jesus christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 king james bible this 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of jesus christ going back to adam and eve this book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of noah's ark and the tower of babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before you can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of 35 or more visit historicalbiblesociety .org

that's historicalbiblesociety .org thanks for helping to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joe moorcraft pastor of heritage presbyterian church in cumming georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm anthony uvinio founder of the reformrookie .com

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that's nasbible .com to place your order you i'm brian mclaughlin president of the secure comm group and an enthusiastic supporter of chris arnzen's iron sharpens iron radio program the secure comm group provides the highest level of security close circuit television access control and communication systems for manhattan's top residential buildings as well as churches commercial properties municipalities and more we custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself including digital recording off -site viewing and connectivity from most smart devices from simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition the secure comm group has it we also provide the latest in intercom and ip telephone systems in addition we provide superior networking platforms we'll create maintain and secure your local network whether it's a wi -fi or hardwire network we'll implement the latest secured firewall endpoint solutions and cloud backup i would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of iron sharpens iron radio listeners and their associates for more details on how the secure comm group may with the very latest in security innovations call 718 -353 -3355 that's 718 -353 -3355 or visit securecomgroup .com

that's securecomgroup .com this is brian mclaughlin of the secure comm group joining chris arnzen's family of advertisers to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air puritan reformed is a bible believing kingdom building devil fighting church we are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone puritan reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets priests and kings we teach families to worship together as families puritan is committed to teaching the whole council of god so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of god as the waters cover the sea we sing the psalms teach the law proclaim the gospel make disciples maintain discipline and exalt christ this is pastor david reese of puritan reformed in phoenix arizona join us in the glorious cause of advancing christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth puritan reformed church believe build fight puritan phx .com

welcome back just a reminder folks you've been hearing the ads for the historical bible society every day for years please don't forget that that fine ministry is founded by its president daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law if you are the victim of a serious personal injury or medical malpractice no matter where you live in the united states please call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or visit their website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .COM

that's the website for the law firm of buttafuoco and associates please always mention that you heard about them from chris arnson of iron trap and zion radio we're now back with brian gunter we have a question from eric in athol or atoll idaho a -t -h -o -l sorry if i'm mispronouncing that city he says what separates your position on equal protection and say live action which also claims abortion is murder yeah that's interesting um you know i've heard lila rose talk about equal protection but unless i've just i'm unaware of it i have not heard lila rose clearly explain um where she stands on the issue of holding a woman accountable for abortion i do remember she once on a podcast um i think it's called the whatever podcast uh it's it's it's run by a group of secularists but she was on that podcast and i think she said at some level the woman should be culpable but i don't know if lila would affirm equal protection under the law meaning that the same lives that protect born persons should also protect pre -born persons i hope that lila comes around to a fully abolitionist and equal protection position my understanding having observed her from afar i don't know her personally um is uh that she uh sees that the woman should be somewhat culpable but not as culpable as everyone who participates in the abortion if her position has changed i rejoice in that but i think somewhat like scott klusendorf she's taking a bit of a modified position that is not truly abolitionist but i i hope that uh like me uh she continues to move toward abolition and i hope to see the day that she uh is in full agreement with us on this okay we have eduardo in quakertown pennsylvania he says i have heard that former planned parenthood employee and pro -abortionist gabby i'm sorry abby johnson was after coming to christ a incrementalist now has turned to the position that you hold as an abolitionist is that true you know i i think abby in principle um embraces the concept of equal protection i don't know if she fully embraces abolition because i have heard her argue in favor of incrementalism before it's interesting i first met abby johnson when i asked her to come and speak at a fundraiser for a pregnancy center that i founded here in louisiana and i met her and i told her this was uh this was in september of 2021 and i told her that we were working on introducing a bill the following spring in the louisiana legislature that became hb 813 and we were going to promote an outright ban on abortion uh abolition and equal protection under the law and i remember that she was she scolded me privately um when we were talking you know that you can't do that that you know that's going too far and and that would prosecute women and so i thought abby would fully reject it when we came out with hb 813 but i was surprised to see her on rebuking louisiana right to life the organization in my state that i used to work with uh and uh she was saying basically if you believe the child in the womb is a person um then you have to hold mothers accountable if they murder that person and uh she seemed to full stop uh support equal protection under the law and holding mothers who willfully abort their children accountable for murder under the law uh so i was actually shocked when i saw that i don't know if abby would embrace any form of incrementalism though that's a question that would need to be asked of her uh so i don't know that she's fully come around to abolition but she has certainly changed her position when it comes to whether or not mothers should be culpable for willfully aborting their children she in fact affirms that now well we are out of time i've definitely got to have you back brian and my studio door is always open to you look forward to many future interviews with you i want to remind our listeners of your church website fbc livingston la for los angeles i'm sorry for louisiana for louisiana don't use us of that chris we love we love our brothers and sisters in christ in los angeles but louisiana is not los angeles i just want to be clear fbc livingston la for louisiana .org

and also don't forget about the website for end abortion now and abortion now .com