December 5, 2023 Show with Brian Gunter on “Has Pro-life, Evangelical Christian, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson Betrayed the Cause to Rescue the Unborn from Slaughter?”

Iron Sharpens Iron Opens With Scripture and the Day’s Topic

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of December 2023.

Today is day number two of our discussions on rescuing unborn children from infanticide. Yesterday, we had a representative of the pro-life movement, Scott Klusendorf, on the program, and today we're having a departure from what has been known as the pro-life ideology, and we're going to be specifically addressing something in contrast, known as the abolitionist movement, and to do so, we have our esteemed guest today, Brian Gunter, pastor of First Baptist Church in Livingston, Louisiana, and a passionate abortion abolitionist activist and spokesman, and today we're going to be addressing primarily as pro-life evangelical Christian, Republican, and new house speaker, Mike Johnson, betrayed the cause to rescue the unborn from slaughter.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Brian Gunter.

Thank you so much, Chris, for having me. I'm excited to be here with you.

And if anybody has a question you'd like to ask Pastor Brian, you can submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I can readily understand when discussing abortion that that may evoke questions from people who have intensely personal, private, and painful experiences over which they want to ask a question, so we understand that and we will honor your request to remain anonymous.

But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. First of all, please tell our listeners about First Baptist Church of Livingston, Louisiana.

Brian Gunter’s Church, Salvation Story, and Call to Ministry

Yeah, First Baptist Church is located in Livingston, Louisiana, about halfway between the cities of Baton Rouge and Hammond. So Chris, I'm about 20 miles east of my state capital in Baton Rouge, and I am not originally from this part of Louisiana.

I come from the Alexandria area, but the Lord called me to pastor First Baptist Livingston back in the beginning of 2022, and I've been here a little over a year and a half with my family. I've been in ministry for 18 years now, serving as a pastor, and I just love the church here.

I'm an expositional preacher. I'm currently leading First Baptist Livingston through a study of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith to consider that to be adopted as our church's statement of faith. We are historically a Southern Baptist Convention Church, but we have great concerns about the direction of the Southern Baptist Convention, and we believe what Baptists used to believe, and we have not left our heritage of believing all of Scripture, believing the five solas of the Reformation.

We believe Scripture is our final authority, and that all our doctrine has to flow from that. So that's my conviction as a pastor, and that's also the conviction of our church body.

And I highly recommend, by the way, perhaps even especially, I recommend to Southern Baptists listening who are not Calvinist, who are not soteriologically Reformed, I strongly urge you to get a hold of a book by Tom Nettles titled By His Grace and For His Glory, and I am sure that many non-Calvinist and even vehemently anti-Calvinist Baptists will be utterly shocked to discover that some of the men they claim as their greatest heroes from history were indeed thoroughgoing Calvinists, and in fact the entirety of the leadership who founded the Southern Baptist Convention were thoroughgoing five-point Calvinists, which is why there exists an organization called the Founders Ministries or Founders Movement, which is made up of sovereign grace-believing Southern Baptists who are trying to restore those beliefs to the Southern Baptist Convention, which dominated that convention in the 19th century.

But anyway, we have a tradition here on Iron Trump and Zion Radio. Whenever we have a first-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation story that would include the kind of religious upbringing, if any, in which they were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

So why don't you give us a summary of your story?

Well, I actually grew up in church. I was a Baptist before I was a Christian, if you catch what I'm saying. I grew up in the small town of Forest Hill, Louisiana, and my home church is a small church there called Pisgah Baptist Church, and that is where I was reared in the faith and have a lot of good memories of that church and a lot of people to this day that I love dearly and who dearly love me.

I came to faith in Christ. I was at Vacation Bible School, a very Southern Baptist ministry, and I was 10 years old, and I had a Sunday school teacher. Her name was Miss—excuse me, a VBS teacher. Her name was Miss Phoebe, and she explained to me that when Christ went to the cross, he paid for my sins, that the reason that the Lord had to die on the cross was because of the sins that I had committed.

And for the first time in my life, although I had heard the gospel preached, for the first time in my life, I understood that Jesus died to pay for my sin, and it just crushed me, with not only the weight of my sin, but the suffering that my sin had caused for Christ.

And I was very convicted, and I felt guilty of the death of the Son of God, and I felt so convicted over that, that you could obviously tell that the Lord was working in my heart. And so I met with my pastor, and he better explained the gospel to me, and I repented of my sins and placed my faith in Christ, and I was baptized at 10 years old.

There was a period of time in my life—it would have been my ninth and tenth grade years in high school— that I tried to stray from the Lord by partying and doing the things that you do in high school to try to fit in, and I went to a church summer camp, also a very Southern Baptist place to be.

In my youth group, we went to a church summer camp, and the camp pastor was preaching through the book of James. And when he went through James 1 and 2 about being not only listeners, but doers of the word, and he talked about how faith without works is dead, and I realized that I was harboring unrepentant sin, at least trying to.

I was very conflicted about it, and I realized that I was a big hypocrite, trying to be a Christian and trying to do things that I knew were wrong. And I repented, and I realized that if I was going to follow Christ, that I had to be fully committed to Christ.

I couldn't be halfway committed, and so it was through that—this was just before I turned 16 years old— it was through that that I began to get really serious about my faith and began to study the Bible, and through a series of events and opportunities being asked to teach and preach.

I started preaching at 16 years old, which was probably too young, but nonetheless, that's what happened. And I would supply preach and teach when I had opportunities. And then on my 19th birthday, I was called as a pastor, an associate pastor in my home church, and I have been in pastoral ministry ever since.

Three years later, I was called to be the senior pastor of another church, and I have been preaching every Sunday and Wednesdays for the past 18 years. And I'm now 37 years old, and God has blessed my ministry, and I'm just so thankful to be called to serve the Lord in pastoral ministry.

It's a blessing.

How did you specifically come to discover and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace known as Reformed theology?

Yes, so I had Dr. Chuck Quarles as my Greek professor at Louisiana College, and I didn't realize that he was Reformed. He didn't really, in the classroom, express his convictions on the doctrines of grace, but he required me to do exegesis, and that'll make you into a believer in the doctrines of grace if you'll just deal with the Word of God.

As long as you're honest about what you're exegeting.

Yeah, and so please understand if you're not Reformed, I say that in a little bit of jest, but in all sincerity, it was my study of Scripture. So I had to do an exegetical paper on Ephesians chapter 1, verses 3 to 13.

And when I worked through that passage, I broke down and said, I have been wrong. The Bible teaches sovereign grace. The Bible teaches unconditional election. I am not responsible for my salvation. God is, ultimately speaking.

And I would not have come to Christ unless God had first changed my heart. And I realized that this is something that God had purposed and planned before the foundation of the world. And I just stopped fighting against what I was reading in the Bible.

I was trying to explain passages, explain away passages in Scripture. And finally, I just embraced what it said. And that was early on in my ministry. I was about 21 years old at the time. And ever since then, I have believed and preached the doctrines of grace.

And I just tell people I'm a Baptist. I believe what Charles Haddon Spurgeon believed. And so I'm not strange. I don't have weird theology. I fully embrace and affirm the 1689 Baptist confession of faith, which is what the majority of Baptists throughout our history believed.

Majority doesn't mean it's right, but it is a good argument that I'm not strange. I am just a Baptist, historically speaking.

Well, I have to confess I do know a lot of strange Reformed Baptists, but that's another story.

Yes, I do, too.

In fact, quite a number of people would put me in that category for certain. And by the way, let me also quickly ask you how you realized that God had placed a call upon your life to become a pastor.

So it was through the confirmation of church leadership. I mean, there was the desire to preach. My pastor actually had asked me to share my testimony of how just before I turned 16, how God had really convicted me over my sin.

And he could see how I began to be much more serious about my faith and studying the word of God. We were riding back from camp and I was just reading my Bible and just was constantly in Scripture. And he's like, what's going on?

You know, normally when kids are on a youth trip, they're goofing up in the back of the church van and I'm back there just reading the Bible intently. And I just told him I just realized I have so much to learn.

And I was just convicted that I needed to be more serious in my walk with Christ. And he said, well, I want you to share that with the church on Sunday. And then he then he decided he said, I'm going to I'm going to give you the sermon time.

Take as much time as you need. So I preached a 30 minute sermon. And this was actually just before my 16th birthday. I was still 15 at the time. I don't recommend allowing 15 year olds in your pulpit, pastors.

But but anyways, God, God sovereignly protected me from preaching any sort of heresy. And I basically just explained what I had learned from the pastor from the book of James. And I just shared that. And what happened in my church, the leadership in my church, other ordained pastors and deacons said, we believe God's called you to preach.

He's gifted you. And so there was a period of, you know, I was allowed to teach some Sunday school classes and build a pulpit from time to time. And that grew into more and more until finally on my 19th birthday, my home church called me to be an associate pastor and ordained me to pastoral ministry.

Wow. Praise God. Well, I want to make sure I want to let our listeners know about something that I forgot to mention at the outset. If you live in or near Livingston, Louisiana, or you're passing through or you have family, friends and loved ones near there, please visit the website of First Baptist Church of Livingston, Louisiana, which is FBC Livingston L .A. for Louisiana dot org.

FBC for First Baptist Church Livingston L .A. dot org. And God willing, we'll repeat that before the end of the show. Well, I think it would be wise for us now to have you give a description that informs us on the differences between abolitionism, the ideology that you espouse that motivates and drives your efforts to rescue unborn children from slaughter and compare and contrast that with the ideology of my guest yesterday, Scott Klusendorf.

And so our listeners will have a greater understanding of why there is a difference in the cause for life in this nation and globally for that matter.

Abolitionism, Equal Protection, and the Difference from Pro-Life Incrementalism

Yeah, thank you, Chris. So I didn't get to listen to all of the interview yesterday with Scott Klusendorf, but I did listen to some of it. And so I will, as appropriate, try to explain how my position is indeed different from Scott's.

We're going to agree on some things and disagree on others. So the best way I believe to explain abolition, I'd like to quote a friend of mine. He's an attorney, Bradley Pierce. I think that he has stated this in the most succinct way possible.

And Bradley Bradley has explained abolitionists believe that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. And what that means is abortion is murder. Biblically speaking, abortion is the unjustified taking of an innocent human life.

And it's an intentional act in abortion. We typically have people, the doctor, if there's a doctor involved, sometimes abortions are self-managed and we'll talk about that more. But if there's a doctor involved, if there's medical staff, if there is an industry that is providing abortion pills for the purpose of inducing abortion, the mother and the father who either hire an assassin or who procure medication and manage the abortion themselves, however it takes place, whoever is involved in the act of intentionally killing an innocent child in the womb, they are to one degree or another guilty of homicide under the homicide code.

And if they have full culpability, if they intentionally committed this act, then they would be guilty of murder. There is homicide that does not rise to the level of murder, and that is a possibility.

But generally, those who commit abortion are guilty of murder. And I believe that the law should treat the innocent life in the womb equally and protect that life equally with born persons. So I believe that the same laws that protect your life and my life, Chris, those same laws should protect the child in the womb.

An abolitionist believes that we must have equal protection under the law, which, by the way, is what the 14th Amendment to the U .S. Constitution says that we must do. Abolitionists believe that we must provide pre-born children equal protection under the law so that their lives are protected equally with born persons because they have the same right to life granted to them by God.

Therefore, our laws should equally protect that life from the moment of fertilization, which is sometimes called conception, but scientifically is fertilization. The moment that the sperm and the egg meets and the child begins to grow from fertilization until natural death with no point in between where there is any variation, we believe that all human life must be equally protected under the law.

That's what an abolitionist believes.

And as we confirmed or as I confirmed with you before the program, abolitionists, or at least the majority of those with whom you have a great measure of agreement, do not believe that if abortion were to be outlawed and all those who would be participants in the murder of an unborn child would be rightly prosecuted and imprisoned and so on, that you do not believe in retroactive prosecution of everyone known in the United States who has had an abortion.

And it could be 30 years ago.

Not only do I not believe in retroactively punishing those who commit abortion, not only do I not believe it, but the Constitution of pretty much every state that I'm aware of, certainly the Louisiana Constitution in my home state, as well as the U .S. Constitution prohibit ex post facto laws that's after the fact.

I cannot make it a crime. I cannot punish you for a crime for something that you did in the past, which was legal when you committed that act. So women who had abortions at times when it was legal for them to have it, we cannot retroactively punish them.

Not under our federal constitution or pretty much every state constitution that I'm aware of, but also that would be immoral. Our laws permitted women to murder their children. We are guilty of having unjust laws.

We can't go back and prosecute for something that we permitted them by law to do. That would be morally wrong and it would also be unconstitutional. We need to change our laws and from the moment our laws are changed, each life will be equally protected under law.

Now, if you could, before we go to our first break, I understand you wanted to voice some pushback to Scott Klusendorf over some of what you heard him say yesterday.

Well, you know, as I listen to Scott and to be fair, I didn't hear everything that Scott said. So if I miss something, that's my fault, not his. But what I heard could have led the listener to the impression of if we go after the abortion industry and shut down abortion clinics, then that would be sufficient to solve the problem of abortion.

He talked about going after the source of abortion, but the problem is that now after the Dobbs decision, which struck down Roe v. Wade, now in the United States of America, the majority of abortions are self-managed abortions where mothers are ordering the abortion pill online, having it shipped to their door, through the mail, and then they are self-managing an abortion at home.

So when I heard Scott talking about going after the abortionists and those in the abortion industry, my question was, well, what about when the mother is her own abortionist? And that's the majority of abortions in America now.

And specifically, so this was revealed in a number of studies that have been done after the Dobbs decision. The first one that I noticed, it was run in the New York Times and it was citing an article that was published November 1st of 2022, which was only a few months after Roe had been overturned in the Dobbs case.

And they were saying that the abortion rate nationally has only decreased about 2%. And in some states, the abortion rate has actually increased after Roe was overturned. And it's cited in that report from the Journal of American Medical Association that the state with the highest rate of increase of abortions after Roe was overturned was the state of Louisiana.

My home state, Louisiana, leads the nation in increases of abortions after the Dobbs decision. And the reason they cite it is, so you need to understand, we had three abortion clinics open and operating in the state of Louisiana immediately prior to Roe being overturned last year.

We had abortion clinics in New Orleans. We had one in New Orleans, one in Baton Rouge, and one in Shreveport, Louisiana. And I have ministered outside of those abortion clinics for years now on many different occasions.

And when those abortion clinics closed because our trigger laws went into effect, which made it a crime to operate an abortion clinic and made it a crime for anyone in the medical profession to induce abortion, what many people did not realize is there were also laws in Louisiana, which specifically gave immunity to the woman who has an abortion.

And now that the abortion pill is easily accessible via the mail, you can order the abortion pill in the mail. These women simply turn to mail-order abortion pills, and we actually have more abortions in Louisiana after the abortion clinics closed down than we did while they were open because abortion is cheaper now.

It's more easily accessible. You don't have to go through a crowd of abolitionists and pro-lifers praying and trying to minister outside of the abortion clinic. You can do it in the privacy of your own home.

Every mailbox is a location where you can secure an abortion pill legally, and you can have the abortion at home, flush the baby down the toilet, and that's perfectly legal in all 50 states in the United States of America.

And my position is that should not be legal. It should not be legal for mothers and fathers to murder their own children, whether inside or outside the womb.

And I want to also let our listeners know that my guest today, Brian Gunter, works closely in this effort to end infanticide in the United States with our mutual friend Jeff Durbin, who heads End Abortion Now.

He's also a teaching elder at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, where my longtime friend for decades, Dr. James R. White, who I often make in ministries, also serves as an elder and pastor. But tell us how you first became aware of Jeff and his labors with End Abortion Now.

Jeff Durbin, End Abortion Now, and the Move Toward Abolition

Well, I mean, I was—so I followed Dr. James White for many years, I think about 15 years ago. The same time that I embraced Reformed theology, I started following Dr. White's ministry.

And that's actually how you discovered who I was, because you were watching my stand-up comedy routines on the debates.

Yeah, that's right. So when you reached out to me, you're like, hey, I don't know if you know me, Pastor Brian. I was like, of course I know Chris Orenson. I was like, you're the guy cracking all the jokes before Dr. White debates people.

I've heard you many times over the years. So anyways, I—so I had followed Dr. White's ministry. I didn't know him personally, but I had followed his ministry, listened to The Dividing Line regularly and had for some years.

And I knew that Dr. White was working closely with Jeff Durbin. And so I started listening to Apology Radio and listening to Jeff's work with End Abortion Now. And I really appreciated Jeff because he embraced abolition, which I agreed with.

But he did it in a way where he was trying to speak to people in the pro-life movement. He was saying you need to be consistent and you need to support equal protection under the law for children in the womb.

And he specifically was saying that we should not be supporting bills that Jeff has called bills of partiality. And he's using a biblical term there. The Bible forbids partiality, namely in the book of James.

It talks about not being partial to the rich man over the poor man. So essentially, we cannot treat human beings differently. They're equally created in the image of God. And the child in the womb has to be equally protected under law.

And we can't pass laws that say, well, you can murder a child before they reach, say, 12 weeks, 16 weeks gestation, but not after. As a Christian, I cannot consistently say that's a human life in the womb.

And I'm going to advocate for a law that says you can legally murder that person, just not also these. As a Christian, I can't support any law that makes murder legal. I don't believe we should permit murder.

Again, being an abolitionist means that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. And so Jeff was making this argument and I was like, man, this is I'm listening to him online and I'm like, man, this guy, he's right.

And so I in my mind, this was back in about 2019, I began to say, yeah, I can't support these bills because I had lobbied for incremental bills in my state legislature. I had been working in the pro-life movement.

And I said I was wrong to do that. I began to realize that that that if a law permits any murder, that's a law that we shouldn't be supporting. So I embraced equal protection and abolition. But it was in 2021 that I finally met Jeff Durbin.

I was at the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville. And Jeff was talking to a group of pastors. And I walked up during the conversation and I think it was about maybe six pastors. And they were asking questions.

They were asking Jeff questions about abolition. And I'm just standing in the back of the crowd listening. And I listened for probably half an hour. And when they were all done, they walked away. And I'm standing there and it's just Jeff and I at this point.

And he introduces himself and says, hey, I'm Jeff Durbin. You know, and I said, hey, I'm Brian Gunner. I'm a pastor from Louisiana. And he said, do you have any questions for me? And I said, no, you just answered them all.

And I told him who I was. And I said, you know, I've worked in the pro-life movement for years. I'm conflicted because I really believe in equal protection and abolition. And I've been thinking for quite a while now to reach out to you.

And when I saw you here, I wanted to hear what you had to say. And I was going to ask you the very questions that these other pastors were asking you. And I just told them I'm ready to work for abolition in my state of Louisiana.

And so we began working together on a bill of abolition that was introduced the following spring in 2022 in the Louisiana legislature. That was House Bill 813. That was really historic because it's the first time that any bill of abolition and equal protection has passed any legislative body.

And so the bill passed committee with a 7 to 2 vote and it was defeated on the House floor. And there's really quite a story about that, how that happened and that I won't tell right now. But that's how I started working with Jeff.

I listened to him online as he argued for abolition. I was convinced of his position. And then once we had met in person, we decided to begin working together.

Okay, we're going to our first commercial break right now. If you have a question, you can send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and we'll be right back. Please don't go away.

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Just to give credit where credit is due to Scott Klusendorf, you agreed that it was a pleasure to hear that he at the very least does believe that anyone and any woman included who has an abortion, even if it's through the abortion pill, there needs to be some form of punishment, which you said is a very rare position in the pro-life movement, didn't you?

Why Incrementalism Fails on Abortion and Equal Protection

Yeah, I mean, I do want to say that Scott's position does deviate from the pro-life movement generally. In that generally the pro-life movement has stated they don't want any punishment whatsoever for a mother who commits an abortion, even if she did it 100 of her own choosing.

Even if she did it on her own with a self-managed abortion, no one was even pressuring her. They don't think there's any circumstance in the pro-life movement generally where a woman should be punished for having an abortion, no matter the abortion she's had.

Even if she publicly laughs, jokes and brags about how many abortions she's had.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the pro-life movement generally has stated even the shout your abortion crowd, they are victims and they should not be punished for abortion. So I just want to say Scott does hold a different position, but he is not and he doesn't describe himself as an abolitionist.