June 3, 2020 Show with Jennifer Michelle Greenberg on “Not Forsaken: The Story of Life After Abuse: How Faith Brought One Woman From Victim to Survivor”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's Iron Sharpens Iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this is

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Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this third day of June 2020 and I am thrilled to have on the program today for the very first time someone who came with the highest of recommendations from one of my dearest friends and one of my favorite guests pastor

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Bill Shishko of the Haven Which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Deer Park, Long Island, New York My guest today is

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Jennifer Michelle Greenberg She's a pianist a vocalist a songwriter who has received a wonderful commendation from Brian Ray Who is bassist and guitarist for Paul McCartney?

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she's an author wife mother and half of the musical duo with her husband Jason an

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Advocate for victims of domestic violence and abuse who has been commended by Tori Amos For her work benefiting these victims and by President George W Bush and Governor Sarah Palin For her charitable work for the military and veterans and today

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Jennifer Michelle Greenberg is going to be discussing her book not Forsaken the story of life after abuse how faith brought one woman from victim to survivor

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio

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Jennifer Michelle Greenberg Thank you so much Chris. I'm honored to be here. I'm going to give out our email address right now for those of you

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Desire to join us on the air with a question of your own. Our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen gmail .com

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and as always Please give us at least your first name Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a Personal and private matter and with a subject like this

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I could readily understand Many of you having personal and private questions

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So don't be intimidated feel free if it's a personal question to remain anonymous

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But if it's not a personal question, please at least give us your first name city in the state and country of residence

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Before we go into the book I was wondering if you could do something that we have all of our first -time guests who are

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Christians that is Do when they're on the program. Could you give us a summary of your salvation testimony?

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And including in that including in that the religious atmosphere in which you were raised if any and what kind of Providential circumstances are our sovereign

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Lord raised up in your life to draw you to himself and save you Absolutely, thank you

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Chris I Born into a you know Christian or supposedly

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Christian family We always attended either OPC or PCA churches

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I would be the Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America Correct.

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Yes, I was raised with reformed theology and You know, we read the Bible every day

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But there was a strange dichotomy in our home because on the one hand

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I would you know I'd hear about the love of God grace forgiveness mercy

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When I was at church But then it wasn't lived out in our private lives

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So when I went home, it was there it was, you know, very unmerciful very unloving and unforgiving

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You know and my dad was was violent and perverse and So on the one hand

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I was I was introduced to God and to Jesus Christ, you know as a concept Academically, but I was not shown that love from my father and You know, but thanks be to God.

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I I was saved at a very young age. I still remember Being very young.

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I'm guessing maybe five years old, you know playing in my backyard in the dirt and telling

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God that that I wanted to get to know him more that I wanted to Learn about him and I wanted to have a relationship with him

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But I didn't know how to read yet. And so I couldn't read the Bible And so I kind of made a deal with God.

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I said, you know God I want to be your daughter and I want to be a Christian so whenever I Whenever I'm playing with my toys or I'm making up stories in my head.

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I want you to know that I'm talking to you and so that was kind of my very first prayer that I remember and I Developed this

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Elaborate prayer life with God, you know, obviously I would I would sit down and fold my hands and pray but even throughout the day

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I'd be, you know doing my schoolwork or you know, just About the house, you know doing whatever and and I'd be thinking and I'd be thinking to God and so there was this continual conversation going on in my head with God and And As I grew older, you know,

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I began to mature and and I realized that you know Something was very wrong in my home.

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I started to realize that my dad didn't really love me. I Realized that he was perverted and I started to view him as a predator in fact,

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I started to even have nightmare like recurring nightmares about him raping me and And so I thought

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I was kind of keeping God informed of all this in my prayers and When I was probably 11 years old,

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I you know, I really I'm not sure if it was like a developmental milestone that I hit but something

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Really drove it home to me that my dad did not love me and I told God that You know this man who's living in my house this guy

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I called dad He doesn't love me. It's like a stranger is living in my house and I felt that there was an evil presence in our home and I felt

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Endangered and I told God look I'm I'm gonna be a teenager soon.

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I'm gonna be dealing with all sorts of you know new issues I'm gonna be maturing and and and I'm gonna need a dad and I don't have a dad and So I prayed to God and I asked him would you please?

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Be my daddy. Would you fill that role in my heart? Even if I can't see you and I can't hug you.

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I need you to be my dad and You know,

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I prayed that probably Just over and over again just crying and praying, you know into the wee hours of the morning and I finally got what

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I really feel was an answer. I just got this Sudden an overwhelming feeling of peace and I knew that I was adopted and that I had

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I had a heavenly father and he was good and Faithful and that he was gonna he was going to get me through the next the next few years.

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Praise God Yeah, yeah And all this led obviously to the writing of this book

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That we are going to be focusing on today not forsaken a story of life after abuse how faith brought one woman from victim to survivor and I've got to read a few of the commendations some of which were written

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By friends of mine and people who I've interviewed on this program One of which is dr.

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David Murray professor of Old Testament and practical theology at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan Dr.

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Murray says the church has been crying out for a book like this and the right person has now written it in The right way.

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Yes, it's raw honest Transparent and painful that's why it will resonate with so many

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But unlike so many secular abuse memoirs this one is also full of grace truth gospel and hope that's why it will be redemptive for so many and Another guest that I've interviewed on this program

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Dustin binge the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies I Recommend this work to everyone as a glorious reminder that we are not forsaken and a culture saturized saturated with victimhood and self -reflection

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Jennifer takes us to the transcendent God who alone gives hope in the struggle of life through Jesus Christ also another

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Guest on iron sharpens iron radio Barry York who is president and professor of pastoral theology at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Dr.

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York writes This is the riveting story of a young woman finding redemption from abuse by family and church

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Well, not easy reading it will help the church learn anew how to defend the weak and mistreated

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Pastors and church leaders are urged to read not forsaken and last but not least another guest on iron sharpens iron radio

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William Boca steam pastor of Emanuel Fellowship Church in Kalamazoo, Michigan an author of the future of everything has

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Written if you've never experienced abuse take a moment to thank God Then read this book to enter the scary world populated perhaps by your friends family

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Church members and neighbors the church needs this message and many more have written commendations for this book obviously a very important book and well, it's a

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It's always a tragedy and a nightmare one that I know nothing about personally

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When you hear about somebody being abused both mentally and spiritually but perhaps even especially physically it's even complicated and multiplied many times over when you hear of the

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Victimizer and the abuser being one's own father. And of course mothers have been guilty of this as well

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To perhaps at the risk of sounding in polite But you said at one point moments ago

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That you had nightmares of your father raping you did he actually ever reach that point

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Yes, he when I was about two years old and You know, it's funny because I didn't report that three years old you don't understand things like that But I I kept around the time that I got married

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You know, I finally escaped my abusive home I was free from from the domestic violence from the perversion, you know in their psychological and spiritual lies and mind games that my dad played with me and suddenly

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I was living with this man Jason my husband who is oddly and Loving and he cared about my feelings and my ideas and he was interested in getting involved with my hobbies and supporting my career and and so it was this

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Huge new experience for me. I had never I'd never felt that before I'd always been very discouraged

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From attending college from having any kind of you know career ambitions or realistic hobbies and So, you know,

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I suddenly realized kind of to a new degree. I learned by contrast how bad

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My childhood had actually been and I started having all these memories, you know things

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I hadn't thought about in years pop into my head just kind of You know

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Uninvited and I remember I kept having this weird feeling particularly when

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I was You know changing my clothes or getting ready for bed I would feel like somebody was watching me even when

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I was completely alone and it was incredibly disturbing and It was around this time that I was, you know,

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I was diagnosed with PTSD. That's post -traumatic stress disorder and you know,

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I was having flashbacks and panic attacks and depression and it was horrible and I really felt

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Like I was coming unglued but at the same time I had my mom and my sisters, you know verifying everything and so it was just it was horrible and I Told I was like look.

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I feel like I have some kind of repressed memory. I feel like I'm not remembering something

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You know that's happened to me because I keep feeling like I'm being watched and I don't know why and I need you to show me and as soon as I prayed that this memory snapped into my head and It was of me

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And my dad was was getting me dressed when I was very young and I didn't remember

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Much, but I remembered The shoes that I was wearing. I remembered the blanket on my parents bed

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I remember the layout of the room and the look on his face and I remember thinking that he was angry at me and I can still see

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The look on his face in that memory and it's just If I feel that it's a look of hatred.

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I mean, that's the only way I know how to describe it But you know whenever you have a memory like that, you know from so early in childhood

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It's hard to know it's hard to know what to make of it. So I asked my mom I was like Well, this is what my shoes look like.

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This is what your blanket looks like. This is how the room looked and she said yes You had those shoes when you were two years old and and that's my bedroom and At our house in Memphis and I remember that day and I remember your dad coming to me and telling me that if you said anything strange to me that he had only been checking you for diaper ash and it was no big deal and She told me that she thought it was strange at the time and it had worried her and she tried to talk to me about It but I was too

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So I couldn't verbalize what had happened But from that point on Most of his abuse was violent

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The sexual abuse was mostly Verbal or for example, he would do strange things like he would plant

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Pornography on the computer that I used for my homework we were homeschooled and so I did a lot of my, you know research and Look reports and such on a particular computer desktop.

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And so he would say Violent pornography things that looked like rape scene

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That involved girls who looked who I felt looked like me and men who looked like him

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You know about the age difference Wow Yeah, and so I would you know,

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I'd Open up, you know write a book or report about Paul Revere or something like that and I'd find you know an image and and it was just graphic and violent and and demeaning and and so yeah,

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I had recurring nightmares and you know and and he would do things to like he would you know, just Walk around in his boxers and you could see everything you didn't want to see, you know

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And so it was always done in such a way that I could kind of Now as an adult, you know,

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I I can look back at it and say no, that's that's not an accident That was that was sexual abuse now.

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Was there any? pretense at home Obviously there must have been some kind of a pretense or a charade at church and public

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But was there any kind of a pretense at home to have some kind of Christian identity there.

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I'm talking about with your father. Obviously, did he did he ever behave like a Christian father?

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Did he read the scriptures? Did he? Seem like if you didn't know this

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Very grotesque and satanic side of him. Would anyone would anyone think in his home if they?

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perhaps You know the other members of your family because there's always going to be an act when a stranger or Not even a stranger or a church member or neighbor is in the house

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But but somebody who is behind the closed doors of your home like a family member would they have viewed?

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Your father. Well, maybe he is a Christian. He's just the sinner and struggling with sin, but but he's behaving

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So often like a Christian it's hard to tell is there anything like that? Yeah, there was definitely a facade

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I mean You know, I think he used to when I was a very young child

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He would read the Bible with us every night, but that stopped when I turned maybe 10 or 11 years old

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Jennifer Family devotionals. Yeah, I'm not sure why this is happening, but you

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Twice now have cut out for about 10 about 10 seconds I don't know you have coal waiting or something if somebody's calling you

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There's a bad storm here, though Yeah, hopefully that's not the issue

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I can probably Let me see if I can go in another room. That would be better. Okay But yes, so There was there was a a time when he used to Read the

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Bible with us, you know when we were kids But that stopped when I was probably 10 or 11 years old and You know, my mom used to you know make sure that he was involved with you know, praying with us at night and things like that, but He he really kind of lost interest around that time and I you know,

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I can't honestly I don't know why it changed but something changed and Try to think

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I mean it was it was mainly my mom who really read the Bible with us and prayed with us

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Now, did she was she aware of this? ongoing Wicked behavior on his part

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Some of it some of it There were times when she witnessed things but it was very carefully managed so You know, for example, he would only you know, maybe blow up and be really violent when she was at the grocery store

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No, when you say violent, he struck you and Yeah, there was you know, he would hit me or One time he threw me on the stairs

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That was really terrifying He had threatened to shoot me Throw plates and knives at me or throw me against walls one thing that He did and I don't know if this was on purpose or if it was just a coincidence, but he

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Usually when he was violent, he did things that could be mistaken for accidents

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So for example, you know, he would push me into a wall Well, you know he could easily say that I fell you know what

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I mean to explain the bruises and Yeah, so I it

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There was definitely a facade and he he also he taught Sunday school. He's a really smart guy

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He he has a PhD in theology Wow. I mean sorry not not theology biology

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But he's self -taught Theology and I mean he's he's kind of one of those guys who you know, if you ever want to argue about doctrine

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You know, he can argue with you about just about anything You're blowing the face, you know, and that shows you that that is never a ultimate and Trustworthy sign of being genuine genuinely born again

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Yes, in fact, you know one of the one of my favorite Bible verses not for this reason but It's from 1st

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Corinthians 13 is if I speak and I can speak in the tongues of men and angels But if I have no love

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I am nothing and that really really describes What happened with my dad because he was brilliant, you know,

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I mean Kind of a modern sort of OPC spin on it,

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I guess on that verse I guess would be you know, I can speak in the tongues of Greek and Aramaic, but if I have no love

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I Am nothing, you know, it's just you can be as educated as is humanly possible

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But you if you don't have that love of Christ in your heart, you're actually incredibly dangerous.

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Yes. Yes Yeah, the the more The more one identifies and actually appears

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To be a member in good standing of Christ Church the more

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He would be capable of fooling people obviously, yeah, they don't believe that he is a

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Christian or she and obviously the ramifications when a professing believer is

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Involved in these things Are much worse. In fact in the Scriptures We're only forbidden to eat with people

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Who live scandalously who are professing Christians? We don't even have that prohibition to the pagan or for the pagan sure, so it's

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It's interesting now. I know that Typically in a family if a sibling especially when you're little kids if a sibling does anything to you just touches your arm or Takes a forkful of your macaroni and cheese

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The siblings are very quick to mommy daddy Look what Jimmy did, you know on and on I'm in people's homes all the time

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We have children and I hear that constantly going on but I'm assuming that perhaps

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The phenomenon when a parent is doing something in secret it has a different Effect on the mind of the child.

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I mean you weren't oh, yeah you you weren't Turning your dad in as it were to your your mother and your other family members

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Yeah, I'm there was It's very hard to explain There was a lot of contradictory things going on So on the one hand, you know, we were very

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Protective of each other to the point that we intentionally didn't want to get each other in trouble and You know, so and I remember at one point, you know when my dad

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It was at the time that he actually threw me down on the stairs. I was pretty banged up and one of my little sisters

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Confronted him and she just yelled at him and she said, you know, don't you treat her like that and You know and and that to me that meant the world how did he react to that Not well

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He was he was very angry, but at the same time I think that he knew That if he pushed it

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He was gonna, you know, somebody was going to call the cops or you know, call our pastor or something like that, so thankfully, he didn't get violent with her, but you know, he screamed at her and But yeah, so there was there was that element we were protective of each other but we were also very protective of my dad and You know we had and this is an element of the spiritual abuse that went on in our family we were taught that If we were really good little girls if we were really submissive and obedient and respectful that maybe you know dad would see

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Jesus in us and he would change and he would love us and and he would he would become a better Christian and And so there was always that desire, you know, even if you were if we were suffering terribly very afraid and miserable

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There's always you want the best for your dad, you know you want him to be saved and and you want him to be a good person and so you know,

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I gave him chance after chance after chance to to repent and to to be a better dad and he just Unfortunately, he used my

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My love for him as a weapon against me he used it as an opportunity to commit more sin

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Now how many siblings do you have? I? Have four little sisters They're all younger than you.

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Yes to your knowledge. Did he molest any of them? Um, not to my knowledge, no, but I tend to I tend to be very private about their stories

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You know it because I want them to be able to share them when they're ready, right? and we're going to go to our first station break right now and Before we do that we're going to lead into that break with a song from one of Jennifer's CDs and As you folks may remember unless you tuned in late

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Jennifer Michelle Greenberg is a pianist vocalist and songwriter Who has received a wonderful commendation from Brian Ray?

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bassist and guitarist for Paul McCartney and in fact What a

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Brian Ray has said is that Jennifer has a voice all her own in a world of conformity

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That's a great Plug how did he become? How did Brian Ray become familiar with your music?

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You know, it's funny as we went to a Paul McCartney concert, and I just I loved his guitar playing and I Checked out his website and his music and I loved it and I decided to email him for my track

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You're talking about Brian Ray Yes, uh -huh. Yeah. Yeah, Brian Ray and he responded and he was really sweet and really cool guy.

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Yeah Well, uh, can you tell us something about the first song? I'm going to play called love

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Love yes. Well, that is actually that's very appropriate. So that's actually based on You know the verse that we were just talking about if I speak in a tongue of men or and angels but have not love

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And so it's basically the the words of of God Put to music as best

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I could Okay, well Remember we're when we come back from the break.

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We're going to continue With Jennifer's story and we'll take questions from our audience at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com But first here is love by Jennifer Michelle Greenberg I hope you are as blessed by hearing it as I was

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If I speak in the tongues of men and angels But I have no love in my heart

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I am only the sound of raindrops falling down meaningless in my static pound

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If I fathom all the mysteries of the universe If I prophesy and move mountains with my will

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I Have nothing if I can't grasp the power that love has

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Lost and wandering with no compass If I sacrifice all my worldly possessions

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If for others I lay down my very life I gave nothing without love for the very stars above They are dim when compared with love

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Love is patient Love is kind Love does not boast

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And love's not proud Love will sacrifice Rejoice in truth protect and trust and hope all things even in the darkest hour

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Even in the darkest hour If I speak in the tongues of men and angels

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But I have no love in my heart I am nothing

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I'm just the static sound of raindrops falling on the ground. I have nothing

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40:12

Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

40:17

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church Our website is

40:30

Grace Church at Franklin org. That's Grace Church at Franklin dot o -r -g

40:37

This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

40:43

Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

40:50

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio if you just tuned in Our guest today is

40:59

Jennifer Michelle Greenberg and we are discussing her autobiographical book not forsaken a story of life after abuse how faith brought one woman from Victim to survivor if you have a question of your own for Jennifer our email address is

41:17

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as always give us your first name city and state and Country of residence if you live outside the

41:25

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we'll get to our listener questions momentarily

41:35

So please be patient. I just want to get through a few more main facts in Jennifer's story before we have listener questions

41:43

Now, how long did this go on in your life? Were you in your 20s?

41:50

Were you in your 30s? etc Well, I would say that the certainly the physical and the sexual abuse

42:01

Continued throughout my childhood until I was 21 and at that point

42:06

I got married and moved out But I was still in contact with you know, my parents and my family and So the psychological the emotional and the spiritual abuse continued for some years after that But I would say for you know, the first 21 years of my life.

42:24

I was living with domestic violence and sexual abuse Wow, and did anybody in the family finally?

42:32

Come to recognize the truth of this nightmare. You were going through and confront your father on it

42:38

Yeah, it was actually when I was engaged to be married my my family had moved to Dallas and One of my sisters came to me privately and she said

42:53

You know Jennifer. I just caught dad in his in his boxers Looking at pornography and I got this weird feeling that he had wanted me to find him

43:07

Wow and At that point I knew that Well, I had had this fear for some time, but that kind of clinched the matter

43:17

That once I moved out once I got married and left home. He was going to start targeting my sisters

43:25

And I decided you know, I was resolved that that you know if if I could do anything to stop it that it would not happen and So I wrote my dad a letter and I told him that he was going to Talk to our pastor.

43:44

He was going to tell our pastor everything and he was going to start seeing a counselor to deal with his anger issues and He was also going to see a marriage therapist to To to fix his marriage his relationship with my mom

44:03

And I told him you have one week to do all of this to at least set all these balls rolling and if you don't do these things, then

44:12

I'm going to tell everyone everything and You know,

44:18

I I hid that letter in his Bicycle helmet. He used to go out on bicycle rides every

44:25

Saturday morning and so I put the letter in his helmet and And Waited for you know,

44:32

I sat down at the breakfast table and I waited for him to find it and sure enough he found it and he read it and he was very calm and very quiet and Then he just folded it back up and I think he

44:44

I don't remember if he put it in his back pocket or he threw It in the trash or what but either way he just left on his bicycle ride and He never said anything to me about it.

44:56

He never looked at me He he never brought it up he never he never yelled at me he just acted like it had never happened and so a week later,

45:07

I I Took my mom aside and I told her everything and you know some of it.

45:13

She knew Some of it she had witnessed Some of it she had suspected and some of it.

45:20

She didn't know anything about and So it was it was extremely Traumatic for her.

45:27

I know to hear that from her child so I you know,

45:33

I told her and and from there the the church was informed and shortly thereafter law enforcement was informed and You know, of course during this whole time

45:49

I'm planning my wedding so that was that was bizarre it was really surreal and You know,

45:56

I went ahead and I let my dad walk me down the aisle Because I didn't want to turn my wedding into a statement right and My my mom and my sisters were not ready yet for it to be public information.

46:12

So we You know, I I agreed to kind of proceed as normal. I wasn't going to to let his sin

46:23

Influence How my wedding happened, you know For lack of a better explanation. That's really just how

46:29

I felt. I was like, I'm not gonna let your problems mess up my wedding so But because it's kind of kind of humorous actually

46:41

Jason's family is Jewish Ethnically Jewish not religiously but ethnically Jewish and I found that there is this tradition in Jewish families that the mother and the father walked the daughter down the aisle and so And so at my wedding my mom and my dad both walked me down the aisle and that was part of that was to honor

47:03

You know his my husband's family, but part of it was also

47:09

You know to send my dad a very clear message that look you haven't been a good dad And you know, you don't have the right to give me away

47:19

So you don't have that honor exclusively and so my mom and my dad both gave me away But shortly thereafter, you know, my parents went through a very long and drawn -out and traumatic divorce and You know it and it severely traumatized my sisters

47:40

So it was it was a very very difficult Very difficult and painful situation now, what did

47:49

Your elders do and what did the police do when they found out about the oldest?

47:56

Right. Well, that was kind of Kind of odd to me. Actually, our church didn't really do much of anything.

48:02

They They put my dad under church discipline at first But then for reasons that I am not privy to they restored him to membership and Shortly thereafter he transferred to a different church where as far as I'm aware.

48:23

He remains a member in good standing Despite the fact that they know all these things about him to this day and I'm sorry to this day you mean to this day, yes, and You know and so and the police, you know, a lot of it was very difficult for the police because the abuse occurred in different states and some of the

48:50

Limitations were already up by the time I was 21 and You know, unfortunately, for example with the with the with the rape when

49:01

I was two years old That under Tennessee law, it's it's technically considered, you know, quote aggravated rape of a child and quote but I would have had to report it within a certain span of time and So by the time that I even remembered that it had happened and understood what it even meant it was already too late to to charge him with a crime and And since that happened the laws have changed so there's no statute of limitations on child rape

49:36

But the law was I guess not retroactive to the year that it occurred for me so it's all it's all very convoluted and confusing but He's he's been charged with a few things

49:50

I believe but you know for the For the bulk of his abuse.

49:56

He can't be charged as far as I'm aware You know something when I was listening to your story, I was just about to ask you

50:03

Did I ever interview your husband? Because no because your story is so much

50:10

Like nearly identical to somebody else. I've interviewed who I can't right now.

50:16

Remember his name but he was the husband of a woman

50:22

That was molested in childhood through her through her teen years Perhaps even even in early 20s,

50:30

I can't remember but But that the way that I realized it wasn't the same story is

50:39

That you said that he is still living and a member of a church this man. Yeah went to prison because He actually molested one of the grandchildren and that was the straw that broke the camel's back

50:50

That's so horrible. Yeah, I I am extremely blessed that I Have a husband who is extremely protective of me and I realized

51:02

How dangerous my dad was when I did That is before I had children.

51:09

And so my dad I'm sure he's seen pictures of them and I know that he's seen them, you know, like at siblings weddings and things like that, but He doesn't know them and they don't know him.

51:21

So That's been a It's been a strange and a painful thing to have to deal with, you know, they always ask me

51:29

It's like well daddy has a daddy, you know, we have we have Papa Allen, you know, why don't we have? Where's your daddy?

51:35

You know, how do I explain that? And so, I mean, I've had to just you know in very simple terms say well my dad was a bad person and he didn't love me and you know, and so we don't

51:48

I don't know him anymore and You know, thankfully my kids are young enough that they accept that But you know there have been questions like well, did he hurt you did he say mean things and and But you know, it's it's one of those things that I think

52:05

God really works through You know, and this is just one example, but you know, for example my my oldest daughter, she's seven years old and she was dealing with a

52:17

You know a little boy at school who who hit her and pushed her and and So I was able to you know, talk to her.

52:25

It's like, okay. Well, you know This you know, we don't know what's going on in this little boy's life.

52:30

We need to pray for him and and we need to You know How do we respond to people when they're mean to us?

52:38

You know, what do we do? and so, you know, we talked to the teachers and and you know his parents and But you know, it's just one just an example a very small example of how

52:51

God has used my past experiences to equip me. I think to equip my children

52:58

Yeah, could you give us that example when we come back from the break? We have to go to a midway break right now Absolutely.

53:04

Yes. Thank you Chris. This is an elongated break because a grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Always requires a longer middle break because they have to air their own public service announcements while we air our globally heard commercials they by FCC regulations have to Localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida.

53:25

So please be patient with this longer break Please write down as much of the information as possible provided by our advertisers so that you can keep them happy by patronizing them

53:34

Patronizing them and they will therefore hopefully remain our advertisers Which will mean that we will remain on the air because we depend on our advertisers to exist

53:44

So write down that information Contact our advertisers patronize them whenever possible and write down questions for our guest

53:52

Jennifer Michelle Greenberg at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

53:57

Don't go away. We'll rip. We'll be right back after these messages James White of Alphan Omega Ministries here.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

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Thank you. Hail the power of Jesus' name.

01:03:57

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:04:31

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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01:07:44

Before we return to our guest, Jennifer Michelle Greenberg, I just have a couple of more announcements.

01:07:50

And then we're going to play another one of her songs. This Friday is going to be part three of a two -day debate that we aired last

01:08:01

Thursday and Friday. May 28th and 29th were the first two days of the debate.

01:08:07

And now June 5th will be the third day of the debate. This is a debate between a world -renowned full preterist,

01:08:16

Don K. Preston. A full preterist is someone who has an aberrant view of eschatology, in which they teach that Jesus already returned finally in A .D.

01:08:30

70 to destroy the temple in Jerusalem, and therefore he is not returning in the future, and that the physical bodies of both believers and the lost are not going to be resurrected in our future.

01:08:43

In fact, every New Testament prophecy was fulfilled on A .D. 70 according to these full preterists.

01:08:52

A former full preterist, Sam Frost, debated Don K. Preston last week on two days, both on the return of Christ and on the bodily resurrection of the dead.

01:09:03

And now both of them return this Friday to mainly take listener questions, because we had so little time to do so last week.

01:09:13

So we're going to have both of them give a recap of the debate in their own words, and then we will move on to nearly exclusively taking audience questions about this very important topic that has divided the body of Christ in some areas.

01:09:33

So please make a note of it to tune in on Friday. And you can also hear the archived recordings of last

01:09:41

Thursday and Friday's debate on www .irontrapdesignradio .com on the past shows podcast section of the website.

01:09:50

And folks, if you love this show and you don't want this show to disappear from the airwaves, you love the guests and topics that we frequently feature on this show that are never heard anywhere else, you love sharing the free downloadable mp3s of programs with family, friends, and loved ones, you love winning free books like the one we're giving away today by our guest

01:10:14

Jennifer Michelle Greenberg, Not Forsaken, and you love winning free Bibles, and so on.

01:10:21

Well, if you don't want the show to go away, please go to www .irontrapdesignradio .com, click Support, then click

01:10:28

Click to Donate Now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that, and you could also, if you would like to advertise with us, you could send me an email and put advertising in the subject line.

01:10:43

As long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe here, then you can feel free to send in a request for an advertising proposal to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:11:02

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. Please remember, folks, never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church in order to give to Iron Trap and Zion Radio, especially during this time of the pandemic when many churches have been hit very hard financially.

01:11:23

So never do that to your church, especially during this pandemic, and never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Trap and Zion Radio.

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Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home. Providing for this radio show is not a command of God, but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and home, and you're financially comfortable enough, especially since you're not going to your favorite sporting events lately, you're not going to the movies, you're not going to theatrical performances at playhouses, you're not going to fine restaurants, you're not going to Bible conferences, well, with that money that you saved, can you spare some of that, please, to help us remain on the air, if indeed you love the show?

01:12:14

So remember, go to irontrapandzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now, and if you want to donate through snail mail by sending in a check, an address will appear on the screen when you click support at irontrapandzionradio .com,

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where you can mail a check made out to Iron Trap and Zion Radio. And please be as generous as you can and frequent as you can with these gifts.

01:12:39

We lost, I'm hoping it's just temporary, but we lost two of our largest financial supporters due to the negative effects on their businesses from the coronavirus pandemic and the hysteria that has been attached to it.

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So please help us make up for that lost income by giving to Iron Trap and Zion Radio today, and regularly, if possible, at irontrapandzionradio .com.

01:13:04

Click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, folks, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church, you need help finding one, no matter where you live in the world.

01:13:14

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the globe, and I've helped many people find churches in all parts of the world that they have either joined or sometimes they visit these churches on vacation, or sometimes they refer to them to family members and loved ones who do not know of a church near where they live in all parts of the world.

01:13:35

So if you're having difficulty finding a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:13:42

and that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Jennifer Michelle Greenberg, and the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:13:51

And before I return to our discussion, Jennifer, I'd like to play one more song, and we'll hopefully have time to play one or two more later.

01:14:01

But if you could tell us a little bit about this next song that we're going to play, called

01:14:07

Isaiah. Oh, yes. This is actually a song that I wrote with my husband

01:14:15

Jason, and of course it's based on verses from Isaiah, but I really hope you enjoy it.

01:14:24

It's a verse that means a lot to me, emotionally and spiritually, and I hope that it comforts you.

01:14:35

Well, here it is, Isaiah, by Jennifer Michelle Greenberg. Be blessed as much as I am.

01:15:00

Listen in the wilderness, a voice is crying, a voice is crying in the wild of lost souls.

01:15:11

Comfort, comfort, hear my children, the voice is pleading, the voice is pleading.

01:15:17

Take comfort in your souls, what they know is undead.

01:15:25

Bring in the peace, bring in the peace from every land, a battle cry, silence.

01:15:35

Behold your God, behold your God, you sons of man.

01:15:40

Sands are thawing, winds are changing, the heavens drawing near.

01:16:07

Like a flower of the field, we wilt and die, we wilt and die.

01:16:14

Like a flower of the field, grass withers and flowers fade.

01:16:20

But God is forever, yes God is forever, and his word shall never fail.

01:16:27

What they know is undead. Bring in the peace, bring in the peace to every land, a battle cry, silence.

01:16:41

Behold your God, behold your God, you sons of man.

01:16:47

Sands are thawing, winds are changing, the heavens drawing near.

01:17:03

Night is night.

01:17:13

The valleys shall be lifted up, the mountains made low, preparing the way for the coming of our

01:17:23

God. The glory of the Lord shall be revealed like a mystery, shining through history, at the coming of our

01:17:33

God. What they know is undead. Bring in the peace, bring in the peace to every land, a battle cry, silence.

01:17:47

Behold your God, behold your God, you sons of man.

01:17:54

What they know is undead. Bring in the peace, bring in the peace to every land, a battle cry, silence.

01:18:08

Behold your God, behold your God, you sons of man.

01:18:13

Sands are thawing, winds are changing, the heavens drawing near.

01:18:25

Night is night.

01:18:47

Hallelujah. That was Isaiah by Jennifer Michelle Greenberg.

01:18:54

What a beautiful voice she has. Thank you. And we have some listener questions, and actually one of them is a comment.

01:19:05

It's from an anonymous listener. And the anonymous listener says, Hi Chris and Jennifer.

01:19:11

I myself am an abused survival, I am an abuse survival

01:19:17

Christian of both physical and spiritual abuse. I learned to forgive long ago, and this was the start of my healing, even in the midst of abuse.

01:19:28

However, I was still drawn to dysfunctioning churches without knowing it, and thus time and time again,

01:19:38

I became a victim of similar spiritual abuse to a lesser degree. The pattern was that all of these leaders were never trained.

01:19:46

They were self -appointed and not responsible to any outside voice, only their own group.

01:19:53

There was no membership in them. When I cried out for help in the churches, I was always told it was my fault.

01:20:01

I was not submissive. I received untold criticism and rejection at the hands of Christians.

01:20:07

A turning point for me was when someone handed me a copy of Battered into Submission, Tragedy of Wife Abuse in the

01:20:17

Christian Home by Alsdurf James and Phyllis.

01:20:23

Oh, I see, it's probably James and Phyllis Alsdurf, A -L -S -D -U -R -F. I knew then

01:20:30

I was not alone in my dilemma. Thank God I am in a very sound church now and am growing in leaps and bounds in my faith and walk with the

01:20:40

Lord. If there is someone out there listening to this program and this email being read out who is in an abusive relationship, be it spiritual, emotional, mental, or physical, and you are not getting help from your local church, please know that you are not alone and there is genuine help out there available.

01:21:00

Thank you, Anonymous. Do you have any comments about this woman's note?

01:21:07

It is such a difficult thing when you have been in an abusive situation for a very long time or even grown up in it.

01:21:17

It can be so hard to discern what is healthy, what is love, what does

01:21:24

God mean when He calls Himself our Father, and what is spiritually healthy.

01:21:30

I am just thankful to God that this person was able to be shepherded through that by God and brought into a good church.

01:21:42

That is an incredible blessing. Thank you, Anonymous.

01:21:49

If you give me your full mailing address, we will make sure that you get a copy of this book, which is written by our guest,

01:21:57

Not Forsaken. That is compliments of The Good Book Company, the publishers of this book, and also compliments of CVBBS .com,

01:22:08

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who always ship out our winners in the audience.

01:22:14

The books and Bibles they win by submitting questions. Let's see here. We have another

01:22:19

Anonymous listener with a question. What would you say to a woman who is in a church and being abused by her husband?

01:22:27

She is someone who has kept up appearances for years to protect her husband's reputation.

01:22:37

That is tough because it is hard to know what is happening in the situation.

01:22:44

I would say definitely if you are being physically harmed, if you are in fear for your safety, if you are being sexually abused, please do contact law enforcement.

01:22:57

Make sure that you are safe. There are many organizations.

01:23:04

There are government organizations, but there are also organizations like RAINN. You can call anonymously.

01:23:11

You can get legal advice and identify whether or not what you are enduring is criminal.

01:23:21

Certainly, if you are in fear for your safety, please do protect yourself.

01:23:29

Don't wait. God does not desire His children to be badly treated.

01:23:37

He doesn't. He loves us, and He loves

01:23:42

His children. It is honoring to God when we stand up against abuse and we protect ourselves.

01:23:52

Even though it doesn't appear this way initially, especially to the one who is the abuser, the one being exposed, aren't we really doing them a favor?

01:24:03

We could be doing something that leads to their repentance. We could be doing something that prevents their own life from having more devastating ramifications, which may mean even prison.

01:24:16

We are also helping to protect other innocent victims. Absolutely.

01:24:22

You are limiting that person's ability to sin. When you come forward, you report your abuse.

01:24:30

Even if it's not criminal abuse, maybe they are just a cruel person.

01:24:36

They are damaging your face. They are damaging you emotionally. They are making you depressive or anxious or whatever it may be.

01:24:45

They are not healthy for you to be around. By putting up those walls, by putting up those boundaries, by holding them accountable and calling sin, sin, we are actually calling them to repentance.

01:24:58

We are limiting their ability to be sinful against us.

01:25:05

That is a very loving thing to do. We have a wonderful God who works all things together for good.

01:25:14

When we hold someone accountable, we are giving them an opportunity to repent, to call on God, to accept

01:25:23

Christ into their heart, and to change. That is something that could mean a difference between that person going to heaven and going to hell.

01:25:33

Yes, it is absolutely the most loving thing you can do, to report your abuser, to confront them with their evil, and to hold them accountable for what they have done wrong.

01:25:47

Thank you, Anonymous, and just like our previous listener with a question, if you would like to give us your full name off the air, of course, and your full mailing address, we will have this book shipped out to you as our gift to you, and as The Good Book Company's gift to you,

01:26:08

Not Forsaken, A Story of Life After Abuse. And you can also thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

01:26:15

who will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to us. We have Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia, and I hope

01:26:23

I'm pronouncing that right, H -O -S -C -H -T -O -N, and he says,

01:26:28

Is true forgiveness possible if the person doing the abuse is unrepentant? Does the answer change at all if the abuse is primarily psychological and emotional, rather than escalating to physical life -threatening abuse?

01:26:45

And what scriptural principles did Mrs. Greenberg discover along this difficult path?

01:26:51

And that's an interesting question, because there is a division, a debate amongst

01:26:58

Reformed Christians, or should I say Calvinists, because one of them,

01:27:05

John MacArthur, is a dispensationalist, but he's a Calvinist, and he's one of my heroes, and he takes a view that I personally do not agree with.

01:27:17

It's one of the few things I disagree with him on, but he believes that we are to forgive everyone, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness, regardless of whether they acknowledge their sin, and we just forgive, forgive, forgive, and J.

01:27:36

Adams, another theologically Reformed person who wrote the book

01:27:41

From Forgiven to Forgiving, believes that forgiveness is only for those who repent, just like it is with God, because hell would be empty if God forgave the way that many

01:27:57

Christians believe we should forgive, and there's another excellent book by Chris Brauns, titled

01:28:04

Unpacking Forgiveness, and he takes a similar or nearly identical position.

01:28:11

J. Adams, I've had both of these men, actually I've had all three on my show, the difference is

01:28:18

John MacArthur didn't discuss that issue, but what are your thoughts on that? Well, you know,

01:28:24

I actually have a chapter in my book Not Forsaken on forgiveness, and one of the things that I have learned is that there are certain people who are not repentant, and not even

01:28:39

God forgives them. So unless I'm more holy than God, unless I'm more loving and more forgiving and more merciful than God, you know,

01:28:50

I don't think there's a biblical basis for me to try to force myself to forgive.

01:28:56

And I also think, you know, just when you're familiar with the

01:29:02

Bible, I mean this is very apparent, you know, God doesn't want us to live a lie. He doesn't want hypocrisy,

01:29:08

He doesn't want us to pretend to be something that we're not. So of course, if we're deeply hurt,

01:29:15

God's not going to be holding a stopwatch on our ability to forgive.

01:29:22

You know, so I would just, you know, Anthony, I would just strongly encourage you saying that regardless of whatever type of abuse you have witnessed or you've experienced,

01:29:36

I would say that, you know, God is angry with the wicked every day. That's a proverb.

01:29:43

It's in the Bible. God is angry about evil. So when you and I are angry about evil, it's righteous anger.

01:29:52

This is something that God can relate with, because He's angry about evil too. And so that's a profound and beautiful way that we can actually relate with the creator of the universe, because we don't like evil, we don't tolerate evil, and that's good.

01:30:13

That's loving. That's righteous. We shouldn't. So, you know, anger is something that, even when it's righteous, even when it's justified, it's painful, because we're upset, we're angry about something bad that happened, either to someone we love or to ourselves.

01:30:33

And so we're deeply hurt. And, you know, unfortunately, one of the things that I've learned is when you, when anger lives in your heart for too long, eventually it becomes a burden.

01:30:45

It begins to inhibit your ability to feel joy, to feel peace. It's just this constant weight on your heart.

01:30:54

And what I eventually had to do was I had to pray to God, and I had to say, you know what,

01:31:00

Jesus, you carried my sin to the cross. You took care of all my sin.

01:31:07

You paid the price for me. I know that you're already angry with the wicked every day, but I need you to take this anger out of my heart and carry this for me and enable me to trust you to be angry on my behalf.

01:31:25

You know, and if my abuser repents, that's awesome. You know, you can forgive him.

01:31:31

You can deal with that. You know his heart. You see what's going on in his head. I can't see that.

01:31:38

I can't judge his heart, so I don't know how to trust him. Even if he tells me that he's repentant, even if someday he seems to really have changed,

01:31:49

I don't know if I'll be able to trust him again because I'm human. I can't read his mind.

01:31:56

And so, you know, I had to pray, Jesus, I need you to take this responsibility off my shoulders, take this burden away from me, and just let me feel peace.

01:32:10

And I'm not going to lie and say that it wasn't a process, but that was a huge milestone in my recovery process that I was able to slowly, to really begin to let go of my anger and to come to a place of inner peace.

01:32:30

And granted, that doesn't mean that I'm reconciled with my dad. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to let him near my children, that I'm ever going to speak to him again.

01:32:40

But what it does mean is that I trust God to take care of him.

01:32:46

If God's going to save him, God's going to save him. And if God's not going to save him, I'm also okay with that because I trust

01:32:53

God and I know that God is good. Amen. And folks, I just want you to know that if you are on the side of Jay Adams in the way he exegetes this subject from the scriptures about forgiveness, keep in mind that you are biblically prohibited from harboring hatred for these people and doing evil to them.

01:33:17

You're supposed to love your enemies and pray for them and do good to them, but that is not the same thing as forgiveness.

01:33:24

In fact, it could be said that you cannot, it is impossible to actually forgive with a biblical definition someone who is unwilling to even admit guilt because forgiveness involves the release of a debt.

01:33:44

And if somebody is in a belief that they don't have a debt, that they don't owe you anything, that this forgiveness is really just words.

01:33:57

And of course, none of us should ever, as I've heard people do, even very famous Christians, forgive people for heinous crimes they've committed when they were not even a part of this crime.

01:34:13

The criminal is a total stranger to them, but it might be notorious globally.

01:34:19

And the Christian minister will sometimes say in a news program,

01:34:24

I forgive that person. It's none of your business to forgive that person. What are you talking about?

01:34:29

Yeah, exactly. You're kind of putting yourself in the place of Jesus at that point, and that's pretty scary, actually, when you think about it.

01:34:39

Well, thanks, Anthony, and thank you for your recent very generous financial gift to Iron Trip and Zion Radio as well.

01:34:47

And you are getting a free copy of Not Forsaken, so keep your eye open in the mail for that.

01:34:55

We have someone I usually just give the first name and city and state or country of listeners who write in.

01:35:04

But when a pastor that I feel confident I can recommend writes in,

01:35:10

I identify them in full. And this is Pastor Arthur Fox of New Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hanford, California.

01:35:21

And he says, Jennifer, I am so sorry that you... I have to broaden this email because it was hiding things by being shrunk down.

01:35:33

I am so sorry that you had to go through your trauma, but so glad for the way you have graciously recovered by God's grace.

01:35:41

Pretend I am about a year from starting my first pastorate. Please give me counsel on how best to be gracious in counseling in aiding the younger you in the time when you were hurt by your pastor and other ministers.

01:35:58

What do you wish I would understand first day on the job? I have prayed for your healing, and I think

01:36:05

I see the answers in what I have read. Well, thank you, Pastor Fox.

01:36:11

I really appreciate that. One thing that I do wish had really happened early on was that someone had involved law enforcement, that someone had helped me understand that actual crimes had been committed.

01:36:29

Because one of the things that you, that I think, not you in particular, but just people in general need to understand is that when you've been gaslighted and brainwashed and told that you're living a normal life when in fact you're being abused so many times and for over two decades, it's very hard to know what's real and what's true and what's a crime and what's sin and to differentiate all these things because there's so much pain.

01:37:04

It's overwhelming. And on top of all that pain and all the broken relationships, to have to sort through legal jargon on Google or whatever, it's incredibly overwhelming.

01:37:18

And so one of the things that I really wish had happened is that someone would have put me in touch with law enforcement to kind of say,

01:37:26

Yes, Jennifer, these are actual crimes. These are the things you can do to protect yourself.

01:37:35

Here are some things you can do to keep yourself safe. And so just practical things that I just didn't know how to do and honestly didn't have the emotional energy to deal with.

01:37:49

Well, thank you so much, Pastor Arthur. And I want to give your website out to give you a little plug here, newhopehanford,

01:37:58

H -A -N -F -O -R -D dot org, newhopehanford dot org. That's for New Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hanford, California.

01:38:10

And we're going to go to our final break right now. And I want to play one more song before the break.

01:38:16

And if you could tell us a little bit about the song, Whittled. Oh, yes.

01:38:23

This song always makes me cry. This is just a real song from my heart.

01:38:30

It's a song about enduring heartbreak, but God always being there with you.

01:38:41

Okay. Well, here is Whittled by our guest today. And I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

01:38:51

I have been whittled

01:39:10

Down to a spider's thread Source of the venom

01:39:19

The very place where I rest my head

01:39:25

But I'll not be broken I'll raise up these feeble bones

01:39:35

And walk away from here A place that I thought was home

01:39:44

And anything, you can't do anything to stop me

01:39:55

Cause anything, I would do anything to fly away

01:40:02

But I'm still alive I am strong I will rise up when you are wrong

01:40:13

I won't fear He is near I'm not alone

01:40:20

When he is here Who can stand against me?

01:40:27

Who can stand against me? Who can stand against me?

01:40:41

Much like a river You wear away my banks

01:40:51

And so sycophantic Undermining my strength

01:41:01

And your words are poison Creeping throughout my veins

01:41:11

What self -deceptive Gains our hearts sometimes pain

01:41:21

And anyone in my predicament would have done the same

01:41:30

And anyone with a lesser God would fall

01:41:37

But I'm still alive I am strong I will rise up when you are wrong

01:42:05

I'm not alone

01:42:17

When he is here Who can stand against me? Who can stand against me?

01:42:27

Who can stand against me? As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations

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01:50:44

Welcome back. We have another anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says,

01:50:53

I heard you talk about forgiveness. In Matthew chapter 18, verses 21 and 22, we read,

01:51:02

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me?

01:51:08

Up to seven times? Jesus answered, I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times.

01:51:15

What have you to say about that? And the last part was the listener, who is anonymous.

01:51:22

And, well, if you, for my two cents before Jennifer has anything to say, if you look further down in that same text, in Matthew 18, the man who is in debt shows great remorse and repentance.

01:51:40

And he says, or should I say, the text says that he lies down prostrate on the ground before him.

01:51:51

Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything. So he's not saying, I don't owe you anything. He's not ignoring the fact that he's in debt.

01:51:58

So that evidence doesn't really hold to the whole story. I mean, yeah, the verse clearly says your brother.

01:52:06

If your brother sins against you, it's not talking about someone who is unregenerate and unrepentant and repeatedly harming you.

01:52:17

And I think, too, you know, even in the case that someone is a repentant sinner, there are certain things that are just wise and good and practical.

01:52:29

You know, for example, you know, if we have a brother or sister in Christ who is prone to alcoholism, we're not going to celebrate their birthday at a bar.

01:52:40

We're not going to, you know, we're just not going to expose them to things that are going to tempt them.

01:52:46

You know, that might lead them into sin. And so I think the most loving thing you can do if someone is abusive and they just, they either won't stop or they can't stop, again, is to lovingly get them help and hold them accountable.

01:53:05

And we have, let's see, Jennifer in Shawnee, Kansas.

01:53:14

How does Jennifer handle the PTSD, post -traumatic stress disorder, from the things that happened to her in the past?

01:53:24

I am sure she probably speaks of this in the book, though so maybe

01:53:30

I just need to wait until I read it to find out. Yes, I do.

01:53:36

I do talk about it in the book quite a bit. My PTSD, it started out very, very unpleasant.

01:53:46

The first year of my marriage, I started having flashbacks and panic attacks and nightmares, nightmares every night.

01:53:54

It was just awful. But, you know, over time as I recovered, it grew less and less and less.

01:54:02

And so currently I'm too, you know, granted this is 13, 14 years later, but currently my situation is that I do,

01:54:14

I deal with anxiety and sometimes I deal with mild depression.

01:54:21

But my anxiety at this point is to a place where I've found that if I just, you know, and I have to be very regulated, but I have to get enough sleep because I've found that if I'm tired, everything is worse.

01:54:36

It's much, much, much worse and I don't cope with it as well. So I need to get enough sleep. I need to eat right.

01:54:43

And one thing that I love doing is exercising. I love to get out and run in the sunshine and, you know, there's a pretty little lake near our neighborhood.

01:54:53

I love to run around it and see the ducks and, you know, I just get out of the house away from the kids and the mundane aspects of life, you know, doing the dishes and all that stuff.

01:55:04

Just get out and enjoy the fresh air and blow off some steam. And, you know, this is probably a weird thing to say on your radio show,

01:55:13

Chris. I love listening to heavy metal music. Well, you did hear the opening music for the show, didn't you?

01:55:19

Yes, yes, I did. There's some awesome guitar work going on in there. And it's just, you know, just little things like that that just help me vent, help me express myself.

01:55:31

And, you know, I find that my anxiety in particular, it's like static that's kind of built up on fabric.

01:55:39

And so I just have this kind of like excess energy and I need to work it out. And so, you know, listening to some loud music, going running or jogging or lifting weights or whatever is a way that I can kind of get rid of that excess energy and feel better.

01:55:55

And so that's kind of how I'm currently managing it. OK, we have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, a very faithful listener and supporter of this program.

01:56:06

You've spoken about the physical abuse, but I know that along with that came mental abuse. Would you address that as well?

01:56:14

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that for any type of abuse, psychological, mental, emotional abuse, you know, whatever you want to call it, is kind of the foundation that abusers lay either on purpose as a strategy to keep you quiet or just because this is who they are.

01:56:38

You know, it depends. I think there's probably a little of both. But yeah, there's always, you know, lies about, you know, you did this, you deserve this and you deserve to be treated this way.

01:56:53

You're stupid. You're being irrational. You know, one thing that my dad had to convince me that I was irrational and that I couldn't trust my judgment.

01:57:05

And I remember one time I was even, I had the chicken pox and I was covered with chicken pox and I was running at 103 degrees fever and my dad told me to stop being dramatic and stop complaining and, you know, just to just, you know, be happy and, you know, stop bothering him about things.

01:57:26

And that was kind of a point in my life, I was about 17 or 18 at the time, and it just kind of dawned on me how ridiculous it was for him to say that.

01:57:35

And I started to see through a lot of the lies and the mind games that were going on.

01:57:41

And, you know, mind games and psychological abuse are such a strange thing because even today, you know, every so often

01:57:51

I remember something and I think, oh, this is why I get anxious when someone stands too close behind me.

01:57:59

Or this is why I feel so ridiculously embarrassed when someone criticizes me.

01:58:07

You know, so I'm always trying to, you know, whatever I'm dealing with,

01:58:12

I try to trace it back to something in my past. And once I kind of trace it back,

01:58:18

I'm able to go, okay, well, this is not an irrational emotion. This is not a fear without basis.

01:58:24

This is something that's rooted in reality. This is something in my past, and I can deal with this.

01:58:31

And, you know, if my abuser could harm me from the outside, then I can heal from the inside.

01:58:37

And so that to me has always been incredibly encouraging, just to know that if someone could inflict this damage from the outside, then

01:58:47

God can certainly work from the inside and overcome this in my life. Well, we're out of time.

01:58:54

And for those of you who want to do some further investigation on Jennifer Greenberg's ministry, her website is jennifergreenberg .net,

01:59:04

jennifergreenberg .net. And her publisher, who was so kind to donate the books, by the way, everybody who wrote in today will win a free book if you give us your full mailing address.

01:59:15

The Good Book Company can be found at thegoodbook .com, thegoodbook .com, that's here in North America and in the

01:59:24

UK. It's thegoodbook .co .uk, thegoodbook .co

01:59:30

.uk, and try to purchase all of your books that you hear about on Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio from cvbbs .com,

01:59:37

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who was a sponsor of the show. Jennifer, I look forward to having you back on the program.

01:59:42

It's been a joy, and I can't wait for our next discussion. It's been an honor,

01:59:48

Chris. Thank you so much. And I want you all to always remember, for the rest of your lives, that Jesus Christ is a far greater