June 3, 2020 Show with Jennifer Michelle Greenberg on “Not Forsaken: The Story of Life After Abuse: How Faith Brought One Woman From Victim to Survivor”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and the Theme of Mutual Edification

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this third day of June 2020 and I am thrilled to have on the program today for the very first time someone who came with the highest recommendations from one of my dearest friends and one of my favorite guests pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven Which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Deer Park, Long Island, New York.

My guest today is Jennifer Michelle Greenberg. She's a pianist a vocalist a songwriter who has received a wonderful commendation from Brian Ray Who is bassist and guitarist for Paul McCartney? She's an author wife mother and half of the musical duo with her husband Jason an Advocate for victims of domestic violence and abuse who has been commended by Tori Amos For her work benefiting these victims and by President George W Bush and Governor Sarah Palin For her charitable work for the military and veterans.

And today Jennifer Michelle Greenberg is going to be discussing her book Not forsaken the story of life after abuse how faith brought one woman from victim to Survivor. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio Jennifer Michelle Greenberg.

Thank you so much Chris. I'm honored to be here. I'm going to give out our email address right now for those of you Desire to join us on the air with a question of your own. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And as always, please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a Personal and private matter and with a subject like this I could readily understand.

Many of you having personal and private questions. So don't be intimidated feel free if it's a personal question to remain anonymous. But if it's not a personal question, please at least give us your first name city in the state and country of residence.

Jennifer Greenberg’s Salvation Testimony and Childhood in a Reformed Home

Before we go into the book I was wondering if you could do something that we have all of our first-time guests who are Christians that is Do when they're on the program. Could you give us a summary of your salvation testimony?

And including in that including in that the religious atmosphere in which you were raised if any and what kind of Providential circumstances are our sovereign Lord raised up in your life to draw you to himself and save you.

Absolutely, thank you, Chris. I.

Was.

Born into a you know Christian or supposedly Christian family. We always attended either OPC or PCA churches.

Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America.

Correct. Yes, I was raised with Reformed theology and You know, we read the Bible every day. But there is there was a strange dichotomy in our home because on the one hand I would you know I'd hear about the love of God grace forgiveness mercy When I was at church.

But then it wasn't lived out in our private lives. So when I went home, it was there it was, you know, very unmerciful very unloving and unforgiving. You know and my dad was was violent and perverse and So on the one hand I was I was introduced to God and to Jesus Christ, you know as a concept Academically, but I was not shown that love from my father and You know, but thanks be to God.

I I was saved at a very young age. I still remember Being very young I'm guessing maybe five years old, you know playing in my backyard in the dirt and telling God that that I wanted to get to know him more that I wanted to Learn about him and I wanted to have a relationship with him.

But I didn't know how to read yet. And so I couldn't read the Bible. And so I kind of made a deal with God. I said, you know God I want to be your daughter and I want to be a Christian so whenever I Whenever I'm playing with my toys or I'm making up stories in my head.

I want you to know that I'm talking to you and so that was kind of my very first prayer that I remember and.

I.

Developed this Elaborate prayer life with God, you know, obviously I would. I would sit down and fold my hands and pray but even throughout the day I'd be you know doing my schoolwork or you know, just About the house, you know doing whatever and I'd be thinking and I'd be thinking to God and so there was this continual conversation going on in my head with God and As I grew older, you know, I began to mature and and I realized that you know Something was very wrong in my home.

I started to realize that my dad didn't really love me. I Realized that he was perverted and I started to view him as a predator in fact, I started to even have nightmares like recurring nightmares about him raping me and and so I said I was kind of keeping God informed of all this in my prayers and When I was probably 11 years old, I you know, I really I'm not sure if it was like a developmental milestone that I hit but something really drove it home to me that my dad Did not love me and I told God that You know this man who's living in my house this guy.

I called dad He doesn't love me. It's like a stranger is living in my house and I felt that there was an evil presence in our home and I felt Endangered and I told God look, I'm I'm gonna be a teenager soon.

I'm gonna be dealing with all sorts of you know new issues I'm gonna be maturing and and and I'm gonna need a dad and I don't have a dad and So I prayed to God and I asked him would you please? Be my daddy, would you fill that role in my heart?

Even if I can't see you and I can't hug you. I need you to be my dad.

And.

You know, I prayed that probably just over and over again just crying and praying, you know into the wee hours of the morning and I finally got what I really feel was an answer. I just got this sudden and overwhelming feeling of peace and I knew that I was adopted and that I had I Had a heavenly father and he was good and Faithful and that he was gonna he was going to get me through the next the next few years.

Praise God. Yeah, yeah.

Abuse, PTSD, and the Recovery of Repressed Memories

And all this led obviously to the writing of this book that we are going to be focusing on today not forsaken. A Story of life after abuse how faith brought one woman from victim to survivor. And I've got to read a few of the commendations some of which were written By friends of mine and people who I've interviewed on this program.

One of which is dr. David Murray professor of Old Testament and practical theology at Puritan reformed the theological seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dr. Murray says the church has been crying out for a book like this and the right person has now written it in The right way.

Yes, it's raw honest Transparent and painful. That's why it will resonate with so many. But unlike so many secular abuse memoirs. This one is also full of grace Truth gospel and hope. That's why it will be redemptive for so many.

And. Another guest that I've interviewed on this program Dustin binge the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies. I Recommend this work to everyone as a glorious reminder that we are not forsaken. And a culture Saturized saturated with victimhood and self-reflection.

Jennifer takes us to the transcendent God who alone gives hope in the struggle of life through Jesus Christ. Also another guest on iron sharpened Zion radio Barry York who is president and professor of pastoral theology at reformed Presbyterian theological seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Dr. York writes. This is the riveting story of a young woman finding redemption from abuse by family and church. Well, not easy reading it will help the church learn anew how to defend the weak and mistreated.

Pastors and church leaders are urged to read not forsaken. And last but not least another guest on iron sharpened Zion radio William Boka steam pastor of Emanuel Fellowship Church in Kalamazoo, Michigan an author of the future of everything has Written.

If you've never experienced abuse take a moment to thank God. Then read this book to enter the scary world populated perhaps by your friends family Church members and neighbors the church needs this message.

And many more have written commendations for this book obviously a very important book and well, it's a. It's always a tragedy and a nightmare one that I know nothing about personally. When you hear about somebody being abused both mentally and spiritually, but perhaps even especially physically it's even complicated and multiplied many times over when you hear of the Victimizer and the abuser being one's own father.

And of course mothers have been guilty of this as well. To perhaps at the risk of sounding in polite. But you said at one point a moments ago That you had nightmares of your father raping you did he actually ever reach that point?

I had a Yes, he when I was about two years old and You know, it's funny because I I didn't report that three years old you don't understand things like that. But I I kept around the time that I got married.

You know, I finally escaped my abusive home. I was free from from the domestic violence from the perversion, you know in their psychological and spiritual lies and mind games that my dad played with me and suddenly I was living with this man Jason my husband who is oddly and Loving and he cared about my feelings and my ideas and he was interested in Getting involved with my hobbies and supporting my career and and so it was this Huge new experience for me.

I had never I'd never felt that before. I'd always been very discouraged From attending college from having any kind of you know career ambitions or realistic hobbies.

And.

So, you know, I suddenly realized kind of to a new degree. I learned by contrast how bad My childhood had actually been and I started having all these memories, you know things I hadn't thought about in years pop into my head just kind of.

You know. Uninvited. And I remember I kept having this weird feeling particularly when I was. You know changing my clothes or getting ready for bed. I would feel like somebody was watching me even when I was completely alone and it was incredibly disturbing.

And It was around this time that I was, you know, I was diagnosed with PTSD. That's post-traumatic stress disorder.

And.

You know, I was having flashbacks and panic attacks and depression and it was horrible and I really felt Like I was coming unglued but at the same time I had my mom and my sisters, you know verifying everything and so it was just it was horrible and.

I.

Told I was like look. I feel like I have some kind of repressed memory. I feel like I'm not remembering something. You know that's happened to me because I keep feeling like I'm being watched and I don't know why and I need you to show me and as soon as I prayed that this memory snapped into my head and It was of me.

And my dad was was getting me dressed when I was very young and I didn't remember Much, but I remembered The shoes that I was wearing. I remembered the blanket on my parents bed. I remember the layout of the room and the look on his face and I remember thinking that he was angry at me and I can still see The look on his face in that memory and it's just I feel that it's a look of hatred.

I mean, that's the only way I know how to describe it. But you know whenever you have a memory like that, you know from so early in childhood. It's hard to know it's hard to know what to make of it. So I asked my mom I was like Well, this is what my shoes look like.

This is what your blanket looks like. This is how the room worked. And she said yes, that's our you had those shoes when you were two years old. And that's my bedroom in at our house in Memphis. And I remember that day and I remember your dad coming to me and telling me that if you said anything strange to me that he had only been checking you for diaper ash and it was no big deal and She told me that she thought it was strange at the time and it had worried her and she tried to talk to me about It but I was too.

So I couldn't verbalize what had happened. But from that point on Most of his abuse was violent. The sexual abuse was mostly Verbal or for example, he would do strange things like he would plant Pornography on the computer that I used for my homework.

We were homeschooled and so I did a lot of my research and Look reports and such on a particular computer desktop and so he would say Violent pornography things that looked like rape scene that involved girls who looked who I felt looked like me and men Who looked like him, you know about the age difference.

Wow. Yeah, and so I would you know, I'd Open up to you know, write a book or report about Paul Revere or something like that and I'd find You know an image and and it was just graphic and violent and and demeaning and and so yeah, I had recurring nightmares and you know and and he would do things to like he would you know, just Walk around in his boxers and you could see everything you didn't want to see, you know.

And so it was always done in such a way that I could kind of. Now as an adult, you know, I I can look back at it and say no that's that's not an accident. That was that was sexual abuse now. Was there any?

The Father’s Facade, Church Life, and the Danger of Mere Orthodoxy

Pretense at home. Obviously there must have been some kind of a pretense or a charade at church and public but was there any kind of a pretense at home to have some kind of Christian Identity there. I'm talking about with your father.

Obviously, did he did he ever behave like a Christian father? Did he read the scriptures? Did he? Seem like if you didn't know this Very grotesque and satanic side of him. Would anyone would anyone think in his home if they?

Perhaps. You know. The other members of your family because there's always going to be an act when a stranger or Not even a stranger or a church member or neighbor is in the house. But but somebody who is behind the closed doors of your home like a family member would they have viewed?

Your father. Well, maybe he is a Christian. He's just the sinner and struggling with sin, but but he's behaving So often like a Christian, it's hard to tell is there anything like that?

Yeah, there was definitely a facade. I mean. You know, I think he used to when I was a very young child. He would read the Bible with us every night, but that stopped when I turned maybe 10 or 11 years old.

Jennifer Family devotionals. Yeah, I'm not sure why this is happening. But you twice now have cut out for about 10 about 10 seconds. I don't know you have coal waiting or something.

Somebody's calling you. Oh, there's a bad storm here though. So. Yeah, hopefully that's not the issue. I can probably let me see if I can go in another room. That would be better. Okay. But yes, so There was there was a a time when he used to Read the Bible with us, you know when we were kids.

But that stopped when I was probably 10 or 11 years old and You know, my mom used to you know make sure that he was involved with you know, praying with us at night and things like that, but He he really kind of lost interest around that time and you know, I can't honestly I don't know why it changed but something changed and And Trying to think I mean it was it was mainly my mom who really read the Bible with us and prayed with us.

Now, did she. Was she aware of this? Ongoing Wicked behavior on his part.

Some of it some of it. There were times when she witnessed things, but it was very carefully managed. So You know, for example, he would only You know, maybe blow up and be really violent when she was at the grocery store.

No, when you say violent, he struck you and.

Yeah, you know he would hit me or. One time he threw me on the stairs. That was really terrifying. He had threatened to shoot me. Throw plates and knives at me or throw me against walls one thing that he did and I don't know if this was on purpose or if it was just a coincidence, but.

He.

Usually when he was violent, he did things that could be mistaken for accidents. So for example, you know, he would push me into a wall well, you know, he could easily say that I fell you know what I mean to explain the bruises and.

Yeah, so I.

It.

There was definitely a facade and he he also he taught Sunday school. He's a really smart guy. He he has a PhD in theology. Wow, I mean sorry not not theology biology, but he's self-taught Theology and I mean he's he's kind of one of those guys who you know, if you ever want to argue about doctrine.

You know, he can argue with you about anything. Until you're blue in the face, you know, and that shows you that that is never a.

Ultimate and Trustworthy sign of being genuine genuinely born again.

Yes, in fact, you know one of the one of my favorite Bible verses not for this reason. But it's from 1st Corinthians 13 is if I speak and I can speak in the tongues of men and angels. But if I have no love I am nothing.

And that really really describes What happened with my dad because he was brilliant, you know, I mean it kind of a modern.

Sort of.

OPC spin on it, I guess on that verse I guess would be. You know, I can speak in the tongues of Greek and Aramaic. But if I have no love I am nothing, you know, it's just you can be as educated as Is humanly possible, but you if you don't have that love of Christ in your heart, you're actually incredibly dangerous.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, the the more The more one identifies and actually appears. To be a member in good standing of Christ Church the more.

He.

Would be capable of fooling people obviously. Yeah, they believe that he is a Christian or she and Obviously the ramifications when a professing believer is Involved in these things are much worse. In fact in the scriptures We're only forbidden to eat with people Who live scandalously who are professing Christians.

We don't even have that prohibition to the pagan or for the pagan. Sure, so it's. It's interesting now. I know that typically in a family if a sibling especially when you're little kids if a sibling does anything to you just touches your arm or Takes a forkful of your macaroni and cheese The siblings are very quick to mommy daddy.

Look what Jimmy did, you know on and on I? Mean people's homes all the time of children and I hear that constantly going on. But I'm assuming that perhaps The phenomenon when a parent is doing something in secret. It has a different Effect than the mind of the child.

I mean you weren't oh, yeah you you weren't Turning your dad in as it were to your your mother and your other family members.

Yeah, I'm there was. It's very hard to explain. There was a lot of contradictory things going on. So on the one hand, you know, we were very Protective of each other to the point that we intentionally didn't want to get each other in trouble and.

You know, so and I remember at one point, you know when my dad It was at the time that he actually threw me down on the stairs. I was pretty banged up and one of my little sisters Confronted him and she just yelled at him and she said, you know, don't you treat her like that?

And.

You know and and that to me that meant the world how did he react to that. Not well. He was he was very angry. But at the same time, I think that he knew That if he pushed it he was gonna you know, somebody was gonna call the cops or you know, call our pastor or something like that, so thankfully he didn't get violent with her, but you know, he screamed at her and.

But yeah, so there was there was that element we were protective of each other but we were also very protective of my dad and. You know we had and this is an element of the spiritual abuse that went on in our family.

We were taught that If we were really good little girls if we were really submissive and obedient and respectful. That maybe you know dad would see Jesus in us and he would change and he would love us and and he would he would become a better Christian and.

So there was always that desire, you know, even if you were if we were suffering terribly very afraid and miserable. There's always you want the best for your dad you know, you want him to be saved and and you want him to be a good person and so you know, I gave him chance after chance after chance to to repent and to to be a better dad and he just unfortunately, he used my My love for him as a weapon against me.

He used it as an opportunity to commit more sin.

Now, how many siblings do you have I? Have four little sisters, they're all younger than you. Yeah to your knowledge. Did he molest any of them?

Not to my knowledge no, but I tend to. I tend to be very private about their stories You know it because I want them to be able to share them when they're ready, right?

And we're going to go to our first station break right now and Before we do that, we're going to lead into that break with a song from one of Jennifer's CDs. And As you folks may remember unless you tuned in late Jennifer Michelle Greenberg is a pianist Vocalist and songwriter who has received a wonderful commendation from Brian Ray bassist and guitarist for Paul McCartney and in fact What Brian Ray has said is that Jennifer has a voice all her own in a world of conformity.

That's a great Plug, how did he become? How did Brian Ray become familiar with your music?

You know, it's funny as we went to a Paul McCartney concert and I just I loved his guitar playing and I checked out his website and his music and I loved it and I decided to email him for my track.

You're talking about Brian Ray.

Yes, uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, Brian Ray and he responded and he was really sweet.

Yeah, well, uh, can you tell us something about the first song I'm going to play called love.

Love yes. Well, that is actually that's very appropriate. So that's actually based on You know the verse that we were just talking about if I speak in a tongue of men or and angels but have not love. And so it's basically the the words of of God.

Put to music as best I could.

Okay. Well Remember where when we come back from the break? We're going to continue With Jennifer's story and we'll take questions from our audience at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

But first here is love by Jennifer Michelle Greenberg, I hope you are as blessed by hearing it as I was.

If I speak in the tongues of men and angels But I have in my heart a sound of raindrops falling down in my static If I fathom all the lost and wandering with no if I sacrifice all my worldly possessions.

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The Length of the Abuse, Church Discipline, and a Failed Response from Authorities

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio if you just tuned in. Our guest today is Jennifer Michelle Greenberg and we are discussing her autobiographical book Not forsaken a story of life after abuse how faith brought one woman From victim to survivor.

If you have a question of your own for Jennifer Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as always give us your first name city and state and Country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and we'll get to our listener questions momentarily. So please be patient. I just want to get through a few more main facts in Jennifer's story.

Before we have listener questions. Now, how long did this go on in your life? Were you in your 20s? Were you in your 30s?

Etc.

Well, I would say that the certainly the physical and the sexual abuse. Continued throughout my childhood until I was 21 and at that point I got married and moved out but I was still in contact with you know, my parents and my family and.

So the psychological the emotional and the spiritual abuse continued for some years after that. But I would say for you know, the first 21 years of my life. I was living with domestic violence and sexual abuse.

Wow, and did anybody in the family finally? Come to recognize the truth of this nightmare. You were going through and confront your father on it.

Yeah, it was actually When I was engaged to be married My my family had moved to Dallas and One of my sisters came to me privately and she said You know Jennifer. I just caught dad in his in his boxers Looking at pornography and I got this weird feeling that he had wanted me to find him.

Wow and at that point I knew that Well, I had had this fear for some time, but that kind of clinched the matter. That once I moved out once I got married and left home He was going to start targeting my sister and I decided you know I was resolved that that you know, if if I could do anything to stop it that it would not happen and So I wrote my dad a letter and I told him that he was going to Talk to our pastor.

He was going to tell our pastor everything and he was going to start seeing a counselor to deal with his anger issues and He was also going to see a marriage therapist to To to fix his marriage his relationship with my mom.

And I told him you have one week to do all of this to at least set all these balls rolling and if you don't do these things, then I'm going to tell everyone everything and You know, I hid that letter in his Bicycle helmet.

He used to go out on Bicycle rides every Saturday morning. And so I put the letter in his helmet and And waited for you know, I sat down at the breakfast table and I waited for him to find it and sure enough he found it and he read it and he was very calm and very quiet and Then he just folded it back up and I think he I don't remember if he put it in his back pocket or he threw It in the trash or what but either way He just left on his bicycle ride and he never said anything to me about it.