October 6, 2015 Show with Jeff Scott on “The Shootings in Roseburg, Oregon: A Christian Response” PLUS Todd Friel on “Jesus Unmasked! The Truth Will Shock You!” AND Mike Gaydosh of Solid Ground Books

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of October 2015, and we've got three guests today on Iron Sharpens Iron.

We're going to start off the program with another pastor from Oregon who is going to be giving his reflections and biblical insights on the recent horrific tragedy that we've all heard about, the murder that took place on a college campus in Roseburg, Oregon, and then we're going to be hearing from Todd Friel.

Many of you know who Todd Friel is. He is the host of Wretched TV on the

National Religious Broadcasters Network, and he's also got a radio show, a daily radio show,

Wretched Radio. He is going to be our guest for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron to address his book,

Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You. And then following Todd Friel, we're going to have

Mike Gaydosh on. He is the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books.

He's been a guest on this broadcast a number of times, and we're going to be hearing updates on what jewels of Christian literature are available from the press at Solid Ground Christian Books.

But going back to our first guest, as most of you, if not all of you, know by now, on the morning of October 1st of this year, a young man entered a classroom at Umpqua Community College, began shooting people, with the result that nine died and ten others were seriously wounded.

And we have to reflect on this. A local pastor there in Roseburg, Pastor Jeff Scott, who is the pastor of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon, which is a congregation within the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination, and we are so delighted that he could take the time out of his schedule at a very important time to discuss his thoughts in the aftermath of this tragedy here on our soil here in the

United States. And I'd like to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Jeff Scott.

Thank you, Chris. It's a pleasure to be with you and with your listener. Before we even go into the subject at hand, let our listeners know something about Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church, and also about the denomination to which you belong, the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Mm -hmm. Yeah, we are a small -ish congregation here in Roseburg, Oregon, with the mission work of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbytery of the Northwest up until a couple of years ago.

So I would say we have a relatively small footprint here in Roseburg, though most of our members are longtime residents of Roseburg, grew up here.

As far as the OPC is concerned, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, we are a denomination that its roots go back to 1936, when

J. Gresham Machen was defrauded by the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America for maintaining a view of Scripture that was consistent with what

Scripture tells us, as God speaks to His people through His Word. And we, by God's grace, continue to maintain our faithful witness to the truth of the

Gospel, and it's our pleasure to preach Christ and Him crucified and serve the people of God.

So, thankful for the OPC. Amen, and so am I. I'm not in the OPC, but I have many dear friends who are in the

OPC. One of the greatest encouragements I've ever received on an ongoing basis throughout the years that I've done this program, which started in 2006, came to a halt in 2011, after my precious wife went home to glory, and then

I just relaunched it on June 1st of this year, and Pastor Bill Shishko of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York, has been an enormous source of encouragement to me.

He has got radio in his blood. He has been doing it since he was in college, and I look forward to any kind of new radio projects he may be working on himself.

Well, it's great to have you on the program, and this has been another thing that has got people discussing the theodicy.

It has people discussing how could a loving God exist if these kinds of things happen, these horrific, horrible, nightmarish scenarios, where we have a young, deeply disturbed individual, obviously having some kind of an axe to grind specifically against Christians, as I understand, because he deliberately executed those who specifically said that they were

Christians when he asked them, and the others he seriously wounded.

But when someone brings up this incident in conversation, how do you like to direct this discussion, especially since you are a local pastor right in Roseburg?

Yeah, thank you, Chris. This is the question everybody's asking, of course, is why and how and God's involvement in this type of evil that has been unleashed on this community, and you hear a lot of people offering some ideas, their ideas, and some have even said that, you know,

God has nothing to do with this, but... Even Christians, even Christians will say that.

Even Christians will say that, right. So, we have to be careful in defending the honor and glory of our

God, and of course, teaching people that God Himself is not the author of evil, but that He is, of course, the

Sovereign One, and that He is unfolding all things according to the counsel of His perfect will.

And so we, first of all, want to name the evil itself, and people aren't afraid, nor shy away from calling this heinous act itself evil, but then we fall short often of going further in saying, how can we even define evil if we are not speaking about God Himself?

Mm -hmm. And His character, His holiness and righteousness, as it is revealed to us.

That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point. My friend, Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries, debated David Silverman, who is the current president of American Atheists, and the thesis that David Silverman was defending was that the

New Testament is evil. We had that as a topic, because James was originally going to debate another world -renowned atheist,

Christopher Hitchens, on the same issue, because that was connected to a chapter heading in Christopher Hitchens' book, and he developed cancer, so we had to debate

David Silverman, and that is an interesting thing, because an atheist has no place where to stand and call anything evil, because if we're just highly evolved bags of protoplasm, then where do they get off telling us what is and what is not evil?

Right, right, and we often hear, and it is true, I think, that from a cultural standpoint, from a place of unbelief, the the greatest, strongest argument, most common argument against the existence of God is itself the problem of evil, and but really, as we're talking about here, if we look at this from every angle, what we discover is that the problem of evil isn't a problem so much for the believer as it is for the unbeliever, and because we can, as believers, as those who receive what

God has revealed about Himself in the world that He created, we can say, and we can define, and we can articulate what evil is from in relationship to His law, and then we can at the same time confess

His sovereignty over these things. We can confess what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said, which was that it is the devil himself who was a murderer from the beginning, because he did not stand in the truth, that he was a liar and the father of lies, and so we say that any thing that is a distortion, perversion, or separation from God and His Word, His truth, is itself a form of murder, and the very thing that separates

God's image -bearers from God who is life So, we're not lost for words in this question as Christians about how do we address the problem of evil.

We must confess that we don't stand from the position that God stands.

We don't have His comprehension or inexhaustible knowledge of His divine plan, but what we do have is a clear understanding that evil is not a sovereign force of itself, working apart and against God, but that it is under God, and that He has a morally sufficient reason for allowing the existence of evil, and He even uses evil to accomplish

His good purposes, and we see that most clearly in the cross of Jesus Christ, who was delivered up by the predetermined plan of His Father.

For the sins of His people, delivered into the hands of murderous and lawless men, and so even the greatest act of evil that's ever been committed in the course of human history was predetermined by God for the purpose of turning evil on its head and restoring man in a right relationship to himself.

Amen, and since you are a local Roseburg, Oregon pastor, were any of the students at that college,

Umpqua Community College, are any of the students there members of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church of Roseburg?

Yes, as small as our congregation is, we do have two, actually three folks in our congregation who are students at UCC, and praise

God, none of them were on campus at the time of the shooting, but we do have some folks that we know who not only were supposed to be on campus at that time, but were supposed to be in that very classroom.

Wow. But they were not, including one of our members, so it has hit really close to home for not just our congregation, every person that I have talked to in Roseburg has, in some way, there are only one or maybe two persons removed from either a victim, a victim's family member, or one of the survivors of the attack.

Wow, I am I'm going to say with confidence, although I don't know the student who's a member of the congregation where you pastor, that his life was spared by God's providence, placing him somewhere else where he was supposed to be in that classroom.

When I say supposed to be, I mean according to his schedule. I can only assume with confidence that no matter how strong his faith in Christ was before,

I'm sure that he is all the more diligent to pursue knowing and loving

Christ in a more deep way now that he knows in such a tangible way that he had his life spared in such a providential occurrence.

Absolutely, I have heard some of his thoughts, and of course, you know, immediate thoughts often people have is on the thoughts of survivor's guilt and why was

I not there? Why others and not me? But from as a believer, as a disciple of Jesus Christ, I believe that this is being used to bring him and others who have similar experiences to a greater place of just diligently seeking the

Lord and recognizing his hand upon their life and walking in light of that.

Do you hear in your community a lot of vengeful speech because that not only occurs amongst the lost or the non -Christian folks, you hear a lot of stuff like that right in our own churches.

People who are filled with anger and rage and vengeance against anyone who would do such a dastardly thing.

People wanting to torture and kill people who have committed such a crime.

And sometimes even comments like that do, as I said, flow from the lips and hearts and minds of Christians.

But what is your response to that kind of reaction to what we've learned about from your hometown?

Well, I appreciate the outrage. I think that it's appropriate to be angry in a righteous way.

I hope, and my hope is that much like... Well, you know, this is something

I have been thinking about quite a bit, obviously, and you think of there is a kind of look into this man's life that's beginning to unfold publicly that gives you some insight into the depths of his involvement, perhaps even with some of the occult or other overtly satanic influences, which may be part of the story here.

But we all must confess as Christians and especially that when we see sin erupt in the lives of other people that we ought to first of all put our hands over our own mouth and confess silently before the

Lord that if not for His grace, we would be...

If not for His restraining us, even when we didn't know Him, that very well could be what our life ended in, and I think that we can't allow this to become an opportunity for us to gloat or consider ourselves to be better than others in measuring ourselves against this man and then taking an opportunity to confess that we never could have done such a thing.

However, there is a kind of evil that we see here that we need a lot more to be said about and explained to us.

Mm -hmm. I mean if God were to lift His hand of restraint on the evil that is within all of us, we don't even know right now what we would be capable of doing or what we would do when you even think about horrific murders that have taken place and people have lived in many occasions exemplary lives straight up to the point of the of the murders they committed.

I mean sometimes decades of being outstanding members of the community in many respects and husbands and fathers and wonderful children to their parents and neighbors and so on.

You have to really come to a theological understanding of how evil men are before we begin to speak with such harsh accusation towards people who are involved in sin, correct?

Absolutely. Yeah, I was reading and I even want to say it was October 1st, that Thursday morning,

I was reading through the book of Ezra in my own private time of devotion and reading how

Ezra responded to the the news that the people of Israel returning from exile had once again after God had chastened them once again entered into marriages with the surrounding nations, the idolatrous nations in adulterous relationships, and you could hear in Ezra's prayer there as he opens up as a minister of the word and prays on behalf of the people, and he confesses not the sin of the people, but even his own sin.

That sin, owning it as his own, as it represents to him through those people who actually committed that heinous act against God, that this is this is my heart as well being exposed.

And so it's appropriate for Christians to to consider that.

I think that one of the problems that exacerbates society's decline and our culture's decline is the fact that the

Church itself has lost something of the biblical definition of sin and depravity of man's heart, and the radical nature of sin and the radical response of God to it.

Amen. And I want to remind our listeners, if you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. If you write, please include at least your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside if you live outside of the

United States. Please only remain anonymous if this is a personal or private situation that you are asking about.

Do you or any of your congregation, I'm sure the one individual who is a was a member of that very class where the murders took place, but have you heard or learned anything in more deep fashion about those nine brave students who lost their lives that day?

Yes, there are bits and pieces that are coming out. Of course, we do know people that knew some of the victims.

So, you know, we're getting more information on them, and what

I've heard so far, about a few of them at least, is that they were, in fact, earnest

Christians who walked with the Lord and that their families are as well. And that, you know, very very heart -wrenching stories, some of them, about just where they are at in their walk with the

Lord and the pursuit of beginning to serve Him, and the next step for them was going to college.

Some of the ladies that lost their lives, I believe, were nursing students, and we're pursuing some of the survivors as well, a couple of them, nursing students, and we're pursuing that vocation as a call of God upon their life.

And it is quite humbling to all of us who are Christians when we see people that, even though knowing they would most likely be executed, confess their faith in Christ nonetheless.

And it's a very humbling thing, because it makes you sit and wonder if you would have that kind of courage, conviction, and dedication to Christ.

That's one of those things where the stories we've heard from the Fox's book of martyrs, and even the stories we've heard about Christians in the

Middle East who have been executed by Muslims because they refused to recant their faith, that comes right home to our own backyard, and it's quite a humbling thing.

Yes, it is. And yeah, I was asked that very question by somebody this past week about whether or not they would have had the fortitude to do as those brothers and sisters in Christ did in answering that the killer's question what their religion was.

And my response to the brother who asked that question was that, no, you don't have the fortitude to do it.

That as Christ even told his own disciples that when they were to go before kings and councils, not to prepare the things that they would say ahead of time, but that the

Holy Spirit would give them utterance and that the grace would be provided in that moment to testify to the things of God and to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So clearly, that's what we've seen here in the lives of the

Christians who answered the killer's question and lost their lives as a direct result of that.

This is God's grace, giving bold testimony to the truth of the living

God who saved sinners. We do have a listener from Lebanon, Oregon, who's written in,

Sophie, who asks, it looks like President Obama is coming to Oregon.

Can you ask your guest his feelings on this when he is on the show?

Okay, so if you'd like to express your opinion on that. Yes, there's quite a discussion going on in Roseburg today about the news that President Obama is planning to come here on this

Friday. Of course, Roseburg is a community, Douglas County, southwestern

Oregon itself, is a community where folks are very much in favor of and support the right to bear arms, and we're deeply offended by President Obama's immediate response in his press conference last

Thursday to politicize it. You know, he made no bones about that.

That's what he intended to do and will continue to do. So some Christians have already spoken up here in town about that being inappropriate and that he's not welcomed here.

And my opinion is that the President who holds the highest office in the land, he has a duty.

He has a duty to call. He is obligated to speak to this issue.

I may not agree with the way that he's spoken about it, but I do believe that he can from his office provide a measure of comfort to the victim's families that may be a real help to them and may be an encouragement to them despite the politics that he brings with them.

So for that, for that, it's the victim's families. That's who he's talking about coming to meet with.

He's not coming to hold a political rally to encourage further gun control measures, but if he comes and the victims' families want to receive him and are encouraged by that, then

I'm grateful that he uses his position to do that. And I hope that our

Christian brothers and sisters who disagree with him as I do on many issues that they will do so respectfully and they will not diminish him as a person or the office that he holds.

Yes, and of course, I'm sure many people who vehemently oppose President Obama would be vehemently angry if he didn't make any effort to show up.

Sure. Well, and that's one of the first criticisms that was heard here about the president was his lack of attention given to those families.

And, you know, I think he may have opened himself, he did open himself up to that criticism.

And the fact that he is, if his first move had been to express his condolences and his outrage over the outrage everybody was feeling about the this crime and that he vowed to do what he could to comfort and support those families as they begin to grieve and everybody would have supported him doing that from the very beginning.

He chose to do what he did and say what he said and so it's complicated things a bit.

We're going to be going to our first station break. So if you'd like to join us on the air, let me remind you our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private matter. We'll be right back with Pastor Jeff Scott of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon, as we discuss his reflections on the recent horrific executions that took place.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you've just tuned us in, our guest has been and will be for the remainder of this half hour,

Jeff Scott, pastor of the Grace Covenant Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon, which is where the

Umpqua Community College is located. And as everyone or most of you at least know, there was a horrible tragedy there where a crazed gunman murdered nine students and seriously wounded others, and those who were murdered were murdered upon their profession of Jesus Christ when specifically asked if they believed in Him.

And we are getting a local pastor's insights in his biblical gleanings on how to respond when folks in our communities all over the

United States and all over the world bring this up in discussion and how we are to ultimately bring praise, honor, and glory to Jesus Christ and draw others to Him through our witness.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com And Pastor Jeff, do you have any immediate plans as a church,

Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church, to reach out to those involved in the horrific events that took place at the community college there?

Yeah, thanks for that, Chris. We are already in proximity to some of the victims, some of the survivors.

At this point, our response is coming mainly to the ministry of our deacons, to the diakonomic ministry of the church, where we're just responding compassionately as we can, as God gives us opportunity.

And we have been able to help support some of the survivors who are fighting for their lives in the hospital and facing very steep medical bills, likely, as they leave the hospital.

So trying to support those families with funds. We have just learned in the past few days that we are closer to some of the people who were either victims or survivors than we thought.

So we're looking for ways to, again, express the compassion and love of Christ to them and to extend to them some resources that will help them in the immediate future.

And then we're beginning internally to pray and to discuss how we can address the bigger issue of hope and healing and bringing

God's truth to bear on these events so that going forward, the healing that the community experiences is not just some movement towards a vague or nebulous hope that people seem to be talking about, but something that's solid and real and grounded in the truth that it is something that's eternal.

And so we at this point want to pause, glean wisdom from brothers and sisters who have addressed similar situations.

I have some calls into brothers of churches in places like near Littleton, Colorado or other cities where these tragedies such as this have occurred just to hear from them how they, in the aftermath of that, were best able to bring hope and healing from the truth of God's Word.

What counsel or advice can you give as a pastor on how we can minister to those in our own families, communities, neighborhoods when they are suffering from a tragic loss?

Obviously, perhaps there are, in fact, we know there are people nearby you.

We have one listener who just already emailed us a question. So we know that there is at least one person near you that is listening to this broadcast, and there may be a number more who may want counsel on how to actually respond with the love of Christ to those involved in this incident, this specific incident.

But obviously all of us, no matter where we live, have always uh we will inevitably always encounter someone who has lost a loved one, someone who has even lost a loved one in a very horrific and tragic way, and perhaps even snuffed out of life at a very tender age.

What words of counsel do you have for all of us? Yes, well,

I think we must say right off the bat is that bumper stickers slogans, marquee -style sign type responses cannot and will never be deep enough to give people what they need.

We cannot short -circuit the process of healing, true healing, if it is in fact going to lead people to the true definition of life, the true definition of hope, which is only found in the resurrected

Jesus Christ. We can't short -circuit that process. We have to compassionately look at this likely as a very slow, perhaps even long -term conversation with people who are wrestling with the question of evil and asking why and where was

God and all of this and you likely can't expect to see much good fruit if you just try and give them the whole scriptural view of the problem of evil and God's response through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can't likely do that in a single conversation, so plan on many conversations and be prayerful and tender and compassionate, but ultimately those are the questions that are going to have to be answered, right?

The question we've already started talking about is why, which leads us back to the beginning.

It'll take us to Genesis 1, 2, and 3, and it'll take us, which will lead us into God's gospel promise that He's going to,

He promised that He would break the friendship that Adam and Eve, our first parents, made with the evil one.

He was going to break that enmity by putting, or break that friendship by putting enmity between them and providing a seed of the woman who would crush the head of the serpent, and you can't get there quickly, likely, with a person who doesn't have this knowledge or categories already.

But you can take them there, and it's a truth that is unconquerable, and if God would be pleased to use that in a person's life, we have no other remedy, right?

What else are we going to offer people but the truth of the story that human history is the story that we've seen erupt here this week, and the answer is always the same.

It is God drawing near to sinners and making those who are

His enemies and turning them into His friends and to His children and bringing them home. And maybe if you could let us know about mistakes that even well -meaning

Christians make when they are attempting to comfort those who are grieving.

I even know when I have experienced some very tragic loss in my own life, precious loved ones who have passed, and sometimes you hear some incredible things from the lips of fellow believers, even those that believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

I recall one individual saying to me that he was surprised that it was taking me so long to grieve, because I'm supposed to believe in God's foreordination of all things, and I believe in His sovereignty.

You know, it was almost like, come on, snap out of it. Don't you know that even according to what you firmly believe,

God has brought all things to pass according to His will? Now, obviously, can't people, even when stating theological fact, do so in a harmful way and in an unchristian way and in an unbiblical way?

Even if they are speaking truth, the manner with which they do it may be very much at fault and flawed.

Oh boy, aren't we all guilty of this? I think that Christians especially, because we alone have this certainty that we have laid hold of the truth.

God has delivered it to us. He has spoken to us from His transcendent place and made

Himself known to us. So we know the truth, and we think if we can just take that truth and convince it down into some talking points and deliver it to a person, that the only...

that their non -acceptance, immediate acceptance of them must be a sign that they're just being obstinate or hard -headed, and so the next step would be to admonish them about that.

When, you know, we don't see, I think, the

Lord treating sinners with such heavy -handedness in His own ministry, and the way that He was patient with His own disciples, who

I'm preaching to the Gospel of Mark right now, and one of the themes of Mark's Gospel is the the astonishing blindness of Jesus' own disciples to receiving

Him for who He really was. And He compassionately and persistently ministered the truth to them and showed the truth to them.

And, you know, I think of what was it,

Tim Keller's book, The Reason for God, and how he talked about the defeater beliefs, that people have defeater beliefs that inhibit them from...

and these are natural beliefs that people come to that inhibit them from embracing the Gospel, and even as they become convicted, the

Holy Spirit might convict their hearts and regenerate them. It doesn't mean these defeater beliefs are instantly answered.

Those questions are immediately satisfied. They still need to be brought.

They still need to have those things resolved in their mind, even. And so we have to patiently give an answer from God's Word so that they might have...

that they might be made whole in their understanding of the truth, so that, you know, we have to, again, have a long view in dealing with people lovingly and walking with them through this, and it's the real opportunity to minister to people and show them the compassionate

God that we serve, who is, as he describes himself, long -suffering, and we need to do that.

I have heard from people who have experienced great, horrific, tragic loss in their lives, the loss of children at very young ages and other things, who have told me that one of the mistakes that Christians make is to tell someone who is mourning,

I know exactly how you feel. These people, who have even some of them written on the subject, have told me it is very good if you have something in common with them to make them aware of that, such as let me tell you that I have also lost children at a young age or whatever the case may be.

I also have a son that was murdered or something, whatever they have in common with the person, but that is a different thing entirely than to say

I know exactly how you feel, because we don't. Everybody's relationship with their children and their spouses is a very unique and personal thing, and things will vary widely in how people react.

Christians react very differently at the death of loved ones and spouses and children, and even the most seasoned of Christians do not all respond in identical manner.

So do you have anything further to add on that? That's absolutely right, Chris. I just thought

I couldn't help but think of the illustration that you used. Even if you could tell one of the victim families, say here in Roseburg, if you could sit down and speak to them and you, from your own experience, could say

I had a son. I had a daughter who was murdered, and so I know how you feel.

Even in that, you might not... that might not be completely true that you know how they feel, because think of...

you don't know the backstory to their lives. Perhaps one of the victim's families was alienated from their son or daughter in a way that you weren't when your son and daughter died or their life was taken, and or you were working through something on a personal level with them that you were...

or there was some kind of event in the future that everybody was hoping and looking forward to, and the person's grieving the loss of that as well.

And so there's more layers to it than just, oh, you lost a loved one. Well, I've lost a loved one.

That means we both know and feel the same thing. You know, we can't say that that's true.

So we should be slow to speak. Yes, and I think that it's also one thing that I've heard with my own ears

Christians say, which amazes me, is they will assume from a handful of facts that a person who has been murdered or has died, they will assume, if they have not personally heard about this person's

Christian faith, they will assume that that person is lost and damned for eternity, and they will even say that to people.

And, you know, if we're not with someone when they're taking their final breath, even if they've been a lost person their entire life or even an enemy of Christ, if we don't really know for a fact that they died with that rejection, we have no place to say with certainty that somebody is lost.

Am I right? You're right, Chris, and we should all hesitate to be anything other than charitable when it comes to making those kinds of judgments, and we're not in a position to do so, nor will we ever be in a position to do so.

Those moments are, if anything, an opportunity to talk to them about the inexhaustible love of God and Jesus Christ and the unsearchable riches of Christ, which work in mysterious ways in all of our lives, and we should not and cannot pretend to have the secret things of God revealed to us.

God's Word tells us specifically that the secret things belong to Him, the things that are revealed to us and to our children, and that's where God intends us to stop ourselves.

We do have a listener, and I hope I'm not mispronouncing this, but it's either Palatine or Palatine, Illinois, or maybe it's neither.

I just don't know how to pronounce it. Palatine. Palatine, okay. We have David in Palatine, Illinois, who asks if you feel that the recent persecution of Christians here in the

United States will be the match that strikes a revival, first in the church, then out toward the unbelievers.

Is this the beginning of an opportunity to be the love of Christ that we saw in the first century church that impacted leaders of that time to convert to Christianity, or will the church miss another opportunity to unite?

It's a very large series of questions, but if you could briefly, because we're going to be running out of time very shortly.

Well, I hope this could be my friend Dave from Palatine, Illinois. I don't know if it is, but I do have a friend named

Dave in Palatine, and hopefully that would be neat. But I think that the question to that has is obviously in the

Lord's hands, and what Christians should be focusing on is what would be that spark that we would ourselves provide in the midst of this opportunity?

And I think the answer to that question is that revival in the

Church of Jesus Christ will take place when God gives it, but we can certainly act, and what we ought to do is is to always seek to reform ourselves, reform our understanding of Scripture.

Now is the time to say, you know, are we preaching the Word of God as He has revealed it to us?

Have we compromised the message that we are preaching and proclaiming to this dying world?

Have we compromised it? Do we have a robust biblical view of the doctrine of sin and the depravity of man?

Do we have a biblical view of God's love and His grace,

His sovereign grace? Is that the message we are bringing to the world and to our people to call them to live as disciples of Jesus Christ, denying themselves and taking up their cross?

Now's the time for us to look at that. And if you could just leave our listeners right now,

Pastor Jeff, with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds when they leave this program today. Hmm.

Well, it'd be something of what I just said. I'm concerned about a shallow response on the part of the

Church to this that doesn't go much deeper than platitudes towards some vague hope, as I've already referenced.

I'm concerned that we don't see our part in this, because we are the ambassadors for God in this world.

The Church of Jesus Christ is that lampstand, and we need to reflect and evaluate each minister of the gospel, each board of elders, each congregation of Jesus Christ.

Are we shining the word of truth brightly in this place?

Are we mixing the gospel with the world? Are we trying to beat the world at its own game by using its own view of the world and compromising the truth?

That is where the Church needs to really hone in on and ask itself whether or not we are being faithful to what

God has called us to do, or whether or not we are playing a part in secularizing our culture, which

I believe the Church has been guilty of doing for quite some time. Do you have any books?

I mean, obviously, the scriptures, the holy inerrant inspired word of God would be the first book or collection of books that you would refer to people, but any other recommendations for books written by godly men about recovering from a tragedy such as this?

You know, that's a good question. I wish I had prepared ahead of time to think about that. I could off the top of my head say

R .C. Sproul's Surprised by Suffering and Trusting God Even When Life Hurts by Jerry Bridges.

Yes. Yes. Why Does It Have to Hurt by Dan McCartney, I know is a good book on suffering as well.

Grieving Our Path Back to Peace by Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is an excellent little book.

Excellent. There you go. And I want to make sure our listeners have your website CovenantGraceChurch .com.

That's CovenantGraceChurch .com, and that church is in Roseburg, Oregon. Any other contact information you care to give today,

Pastor Jeff? Yes. I've put out on Facebook.

You can find us on Facebook. Covenant Grace Church. We are,

I believe my phone number is available through that. I'm not afraid to give that out.

The church's number is 541 -733 -8425.

And if there's people who need any counseling, grief or otherwise, in light of this tragedy, we're available.

That's 541 -733 -8425. 541 -733 -8425.

Thank you so much, Pastor Jeff Scott of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon. We look forward to having you back on the program in the near future.

Thank you, Chris. God bless. And I want everybody to know that Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio is coming on next, and he is going to be discussing his book,

Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You. If you have a question for Todd Friel, you can email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And we look forward to receiving your emails with your questions after these messages, so don't go away.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnz and I'm very excited about our next guest who is here for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron, Todd Friel.

Many of you may recognize that name. He is the host of Wretched Radio and TV. And I was told quite a long time ago that you've got to hear about this guy,

Todd Friel. He's not only funnier than you, he is by far more intelligent than you are,

Chris. So I had to search out who this person was, discovered his program, fell in love with it, and I'm just so delighted to have you as a guest for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron, Todd Friel.

Well, this is a problem. I just called this number to win the two tickets to the Stephen Curtis Chapman concert. Did I win?

No, we're all out of those. You're all out. Thank you for having me.

It's a treat. Yes, well, it's more of a treat for us, I'm sure. And before we go into your book,

Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You, tell us something about Wretched Radio and TV.

We do a daily two -hour radio program and we do a 30 -minute daily TV show. We like to think, now this will hit some evangelical

Christianeers pretty hard, we actually think that Jesus Christ is more interesting than talking about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

So we do talk about subjects like politics and we do talk about other societal issues, but we always try to put it through a biblical filter so that we can have our thinking aligned to be thinking more like Christians than like conservatives or republicans.

That's an excellent explanation, and I agree with it because I've seen your program a number of times and quite enjoy it and try to make it a regular habit in my life, actually.

Let me just read a couple of commendations for your book, both by men who have been on my radio program.

First, Ted Tripp. Perhaps many of you recognize him from his book, Shepherding a

Child's Heart. He writes, Todd Friel has written the book, You Always Wanted to Give Your Friends Jesus Unmasked is clear, direct, and simple, all without ever being shallow.

Get several copies so you can share them with friends who need Jesus. And also Phil Johnson, who

I've probably interviewed more than anybody on this program. He writes, no matter where you are in the

Christian walk, you'll find Jesus Unmasked a profitable and spiritually uplifting study.

That's Phil Johnson, who's the executive director of Grace to You, the radio and television ministry of world -renowned

Bible teacher John MacArthur. This is a real... Hold on, hold on, hold on.

I am going to have to send them texts. That is not at all what I told them to write about. Let me tell you a story about Ted Tripp.

He's Mr. Shepherding a Child's Heart, so he's the parenting guru, right? A few years ago, we invited him to come to Atlanta to sit in the studio with us for a couple of days to record what we call drive -by parenting, just short lectures on parenting.

And I didn't think he'd say yes in a gazillion years, and he did, right? So I call up my wife, who loves to have people into our home, and I said, sweetheart, you'll never guess.

Ted Tripp actually said yes, and she goes, oh, that is such great news. He's got to come and stay at our...

He's not staying at our house. He's not staying at our house. And he did.

He stayed with us. He's like, take the perfect grandpa and then square it.

He's delightful. He's kind. He's godly. He led our family in devotions.

He is just the real deal. Phil Johnson, not so much, but Ted... Yeah, I remember

I stopped Ted Tripp in his tracks during a conference, during a question and answer session. I said, do you think it was correct of me when my nephew was starting to set fire to the drapes in my mother's home, and I grabbed a hold of him and smacked him in the head?

Was that appropriate behavior? And he said, how old is your nephew? I said, 37. Well, you've got bigger problems than Drake.

Well, this book obviously has a very provocative title, Jesus Unmasked.

You are obviously coming from the perspective that most people, in fact, perhaps even most evangelicals, have a false view of who

Jesus Christ really is. Yeah, you know, I don't think there's a conspiracy.

There wasn't some smoke -filled room where a group of evangelicals got together to conspire how to deceive people or confuse people about Jesus.

I just think it's happened rather inadvertently when we started telling stories, even in Sunday school.

We talked about Samson and his hair, and Delilah, and that was all cool, and then there was David in there, and then, oh, don't forget about Adam, and then there was

Peter when he denied Jesus. And the Bible seemed to be all of these stories that were just disjointed and disconnected when the reality is the

Bible is about one subject, Jesus Christ. And I know that not because of my imaginings.

Jesus was walking on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24 with two disciples, and he taught them about himself from every book in the

Bible. Well, now, at the time, we know that the John MacArthur Study Bible didn't exist. It was just Genesis through Malachi.

So Jesus taught those two disciples about himself from Habakkuk, from the

Psalms, from Leviticus. Jesus is in every book of the Bible, and this is borne out in Colossians chapter 2 when it talks about a subject called typology, that the

Sabbath and the festivals were merely pictures. They were pointers. They were types of Jesus.

Jesus in John chapter 5 said to the Pharisees, you read the books of Moses because in them you think that you have life, but I tell you, the books of Moses testify about me.

So we can know that Jesus is in every book in the Old Testament because the book of the

Old—we sometimes think, well, you know, there's Israel, and then there's the Assyrians, and Daniel and the boys went over, and we just don't understand the whole flow of it.

It's as simple as this. God created the world for one reason, to glorify himself through the saving of sinners.

And I get that from Ephesians chapter 2 verse 7. I also get that from Acts chapter 2 and Acts chapter 4 when

Peter talked about God's prearranged plan for godless men to deliver the Son of God to be crucified.

So the whole purpose of the universe is to point to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. So the book

Jesus Unmasked goes about the business of biblically, correctly, without getting all goofy, finding all of those pictures of Jesus in the

Old Testament that point to him. Do you think that many people, and even

Christians, have overly simplified the love of God in their picture of Jesus that they not only believe but present to those around them?

They love to talk about the meek and mild baby in the manger lying there helpless, and they love to speak about the

Jesus who forgives and so on. Of course, we all love the forgiving and merciful

Jesus because we'd all be in hell without that. But do they overly simplify that and totally remove his wrath in too many places, in your opinion?

Well, Luther said that our reason is like a drunken man who gets on a horse. He falls off one side, he gets back on, and he falls off the other side.

I'm not a squishy guy. I'm pretty much a really conservative black -and -white kind of guy. Having said that, we need to be careful in the

Christian life that we don't swing from one side to the other and our pendulum doesn't correct by going into the opposite ditch.

The Christian walk is regularly walking a real tightrope, a real razor line, and understanding the transcendence and the imminence of God in its correct balance is crucial.

Because if we just think that God is near, that he's our buddy, he's our pal, and, oh, he just loves you so much, if he had a fridge, your picture would be on it with a magnet.

He's just, oh, he can't live without you, and he loves you this much. And he gets gooey and sentimental.

On the other hand, if we proclaim God as nothing but a consuming fire, well, then we're timid, he's unapproachable, and we don't understand that he does indeed love us, not because we're so lovable, but because he loves us.

So we need to watch our balance and what helps us with that. And again, to quote Luther, but all the reformers thought about this, that understanding the distinction between the law and the gospel keeps you from going into either ditch.

The law reminds me that I am a sinner in need of grace, and that keeps me humble, but the gospel which says

Jesus came to die for sinners, it just gives me hope and it gives me joy.

And so those two, in balance, reminding myself regularly keeps me from having a wrong understanding of God.

Yeah, excellent. I've witnessed very often when people leave cults that are very authoritarian and have a loveless

Christ, or not even a cult, but perhaps just an unbalanced church that has that presentation of Christ being all about wrath, they run into the arms of liberalism or universalism that paints the overly simplistic understanding of Jesus as just being a loving guru from the 60s, a hippie and so on, that's just out there to pass out flowers and tell everybody that he loves them.

Perhaps that's why we have an epidemic situation in the church today where there is very rarely repentance and wrath spoken of.

It's perhaps because of the sins of the churches of our fathers and grandfathers that went too far in the other direction.

Again, balanced. We can't make the good news good until they understand the bad news.

We shouldn't lead them to Jesus until they stop for a visit with Moses. We don't take them to Calvary until we take them to Mount Sinai.

And so Charles Spurgeon said, evermore the law must precede the gospel. And again, it's that understanding the law chases us to Calvary no further, but we don't forget the lessons of the schoolmaster.

And so keeping that balance of mind, it really is a daily struggle. And if we want to make sure that we don't get bonkers, turn

Jesus into Barney, or turn God into this unapproachable thing that he's not, we've got to keep the law -gospel distinction always in front of us.

We do have some questions from listeners for you, Todd. And first is from Bruce, and he is located in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

He says, what does Jesus believe about slavery, and why would he ordain pagan nations to be enslaved?

Yeah, that's a much bigger question. It depends on the era. Of course, we have a tendency to think about slavery.

We automatically think roots. We think American slavery. We think Southern slavery. That was slavery.

We want to make sure that we understand what that word means. Don't just think American slavery.

So for instance, first -century Roman slavery was different than the one that we have today.

Now, there were abuses and man -selling, according to the Bible, verboten. That was a sin.

So right away, we know American slavery was wrong, because the Bible forbids man -selling.

But the Bible recognizes that if there's a relationship between a human being, where somebody works for food, somebody works for shelter, that can be a normative relation, as long as it's not abusive.

First -century slavery in the time of Paul, for instance, the majority, two -thirds of the people at least, were considered slaves.

But that also included doctors and lawyers. So it doesn't mean that they were illiterate. It just meant that was kind of the societal structure.

So when the Bible talks about slavery, we have to be careful that it's never endorsing the

American man -selling type of slavery. But it doesn't forbid a relationship between two people that is mutually beneficial.

We have another listener. We have Bob in White Plains, New York, who asks,

In view of the Pope's visit, I find it very hard not to actually get angry to think that these

Catholics, of whom I was one, can actually believe this man is the embodiment and representation of Jesus Christ on earth.

To listen to every one of them that's lived in my lifetime stumble through the most inane discussions that are no deeper than someone in sixth grade religion school drives me crazy.

Jesus is nothing like these aged, feeble men describe.

They're claiming to be in the representation of the creator of the universe. For goodness sake, my creator doesn't drool when he speaks.

All right. I think that Bob perhaps went over the line a little bit. But if you could comment on Bob's comment.

It was more of a comment than a question, really. Chris, how long have you been on the air? Well, since June 1st, but before then, about six years.

Well, I hope you enjoyed your last day. Most radio programs don't even allow such conversation.

That was my takeaway from the Pope's visit. I wasn't surprised about any of his liberal policies, his global warming warnings, and his socialist leanings.

That was far less of interest to me than the evangelical embrace of the man that the reformers once thought was either the

Antichrist, or at least the office of papacy was Antichrist. This is the church that in 1545, the

Council of Trent, there's multiple, but Council of Trent, paragraph 9, you and I, if we believe in grace alone, faith alone, and Jesus Christ alone, are anathema.

They believe that we are damned. Now, I know the Pope is in an ecumenical mission to blur the lines between Rome and Protestantism, but officially in the church magisterium, they are still divided.

And yet evangelicals showed up. Rick Warren called him the Holy Father. He called him our new

Pope. He said to the Catholics in attendance, and I quote you, have I told you lately that I love you?

Love says, have I told you lately that you believe in a workspace system and that Jesus died for sinners?

By grace, are you saved through faith? That not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

I love you so much, I'm going to tell you that we do not believe the same thing. You believe in works, we believe in grace.

Repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ. The evangelical community fears to make those distinctions because we don't want to be perceived as being mean.

I think it's mean to not share the good news of the gospel. Amen. And by the way,

I want to tell Bruce and Bob that you are receiving a free copy of Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You, compliments of the publishers, and you should be getting those books in about a week or so.

And we have a couple more for anyone else who can join us before Todd has to leave the air.

In fact, we do have another listener in Lebanon, Oregon, Sophie asks, is it right for us to ask, what would

Jesus do? Or would it be better of us to ask, what do the scriptures say?

Same thing. Same thing. So you're not opposed to the, I don't think it's that big now, but when it came out, there was a what would

Jesus do craze in the church, and there were bracelets and bumper stickers and t -shirts. Yeah, I think the hype made it a little bit trite, but ultimately we should be asking that.

And I think if we wanted to be more precise, we'd probably be better off asking, what does

Jesus demand? What does Jesus command? Because that's what he would certainly do because he fulfilled all righteousness.

So it's okay. One thing, too, that I would inject into this is that we have a tendency to think that the red letters of Jesus are more important than the black letters, the red letter

Christian movement, Jim Wallace, Tony Campolo, etc. Jesus inspired all the letters from Genesis to Revelation, so they're all equally authoritative.

Amen. And going back to your response to Bob's comments about the

Pope, I've had a lot of people who are my Roman Catholic friends, some of them are from people that I don't know, these comments, but a number of them are from close friends, childhood friends.

I was raised Roman Catholic, went to parochial school, was an altar boy for a number of years in Catholic school for eight years, but saved by the sovereign grace of God in my mid -20s and thankfully have been in a good, solid

Bible -believing church ever since. They misunderstand when

I talk about the Pope being a false leader, someone who cannot be trusted, that he is committing blasphemy by accepting the titles of Holy Father and allowing people to bow before him and kiss his ring and things like that.

How do you separate in people's minds when you are responding to their accusations that you are a hateful bigot?

How is it best to separate the fact that you are just informing them of vital truth and trying to correct error rather than being just a mean -spirited person who is trying to tear down their cherished beliefs and so on?

This might be helpful whether it's dealing with somebody in the Roman Catholic system or in a movement that most evangelicals are unaware of that is monstrously big.

These days there's a movement, the fastest -growing Christian movement, if you can call it Christian, it's called the New Apostolic Reformation.

Approximately 360 million people are either in an NAR, New Apostolic Reformation church, or influenced by it.

And a lot of families, even good evangelical families, are seeing their kids being sucked into this movement.

It's IHOP Church, the International House of Prayer in Kansas. This is also Bethel Church in Redding, California.

This is a part of the Toronto Blessing that you may recall. This is the fall down, bark, laugh, twitch, fire tunnels.

And you say, well, that just seems so fringy. It is becoming very mainstream, and a lot of evangelicals are unaware of it.

It's headed up by a band called Jesus Culture. If you want to know how popular they are, go to Google, type in Jesus C, and instead of the name of our

Savior popping up, Jesus Culture comes up first. They are staggeringly popular.

The kids listen to their hypnotic, quote, soaking music. They love it, and then they find their way into the

NAR system. So let's say you've got somebody who's in a false system, or they're in the

Mormon system, or a Jehovah's Witness. My experience is, if you go after their leaders, go after the

Pope, go after Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the current president, you're making a mistake.

If you attack Bill Johnson, or the Jesus Culture for that matter, because it seems very personal.

So rather than bringing up any hymn, run to the Scriptures. Ad fontes, said the

Reformers, to the Scriptures we go. Let's take a look and see what the Bible says, and keep pointing them to Scripture and to the truth.

You do want to point out error, that's okay. But do it lovingly, gently, knowing that you're trying to rescue them from the fire.

Try to stay away from poking through the cage at their favorite leader, and try to focus on aberrant doctrine and showing them the truth.

Excellent, excellent. We have another listener. We have Christian in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who asks,

I never heard Todd describe with labels what he considers his theology to be.

I don't know if he is fond of labels or not, but would he consider himself a five -point Calvinist?

Yeah, I wish you had asked that last part, because when you—we'll just back up for a moment.

Ask me, Chris, what is my theology? What is your theology, Todd? Perfect! It's absolutely perfect.

I wanted to say, you would have to—my wife doesn't know exactly what my label is.

I certainly have theology. I think most folks kind of pick up on where I'm at as they listen, who we quote, who we point to, etc.

But I've just learned over the years that there are some subjects that if you talk about them overtly, people just automatically put up a wall.

So we like to talk about the issues, teach about the issues from the Bible, and then let the

Word persuade people, just based on the power of the Word. Amen. And there are also the difficulties that arise when you say that you're just a

Biblicist or a Bible -believing Christian, because there are people who are in cults who say the same thing about themselves.

So obviously it's not as easy as just saying that you believe in the Scriptures to make your identity clear.

But I guess you're speaking about just letting the Scriptures speak for themselves as far as what you believe.

Well, there are certain—even calling yourself a certain thing just automatically makes people go, bah,

I'm not listening to that. Well, we want people—we want a fair hearing. And so we teach what we think the

Bible says and let people be persuaded by the Word as opposed to by a label or by me or anybody else.

I could be a politician with that answer! I'm going to let

Sophie from Lebanon, Oregon, have a second question. We typically don't allow listeners to have two, but this was such a good one because there's a lot of disagreement on it.

How do you respond to pictures of Jesus? We don't know what he looks like, so is it appropriate to have pictures and paintings of him?

Yeah, this is a tricky question itself. This goes back to a little debate called iconoclasm that also took place, if you recall, when the

Protestant Reformation was in full swing in the middle of the 16th century. There were some who went about the business of destroying any image of anybody because that it was a form of making a graven image.

Some people—and even at the time of the Protestant Reformation—some people were on one side and other people were on another side.

What day is today? Are we Tuesday? Yes. Yeah. I think that I can be okay with it sometimes.

Yesterday I wasn't so much. Truly, I get both sides of the issue, and I don't have a definitive statement that I would make, and I certainly wouldn't bang my fist on it.

I understand people's sensitivity to it. And part of it, I could be honest—Chris, have you ever seen the

Matthew video? Actually, no, I haven't. It is a word -for -word.

I think it's from the NIV, so that's pretty good. The old NIV, it was word -for -word, the

Matthew, the Gospel of Matthew. And the guy who portrayed it, the guy's name was

Bruce Marshy. I don't know. I don't know what his theology was, but he played Jesus. You maybe remember as a kid seeing—was it

Jeffrey Hunter? Yes. And I say to you whitewashed tombs!

You know, he spoke King James English, and he did everything, and he had that look in his eyes like,

I know that I'm supposed to be a man, but I'm ethereal. And I've got this far -off look in my eyes, like I'm trying to also be fully

God and fully man. And it was just so rigid. And this guy played Jesus, who would smile, who would laugh.

Now, don't think liberal automatically, but for instance, when he was walking along, there was a scene where he's walking with the disciples, and he made a crack about, you know, they're as bad as the tax collectors.

And a little bit of license, but he shoved Matthew. You know, as bad as a tax collector. Like, you know, it's me.

And it showed Jesus when he healed people, having joy in healing. You know, he almost wiped out disease, if not entirely wiped out disease in Israel.

When he was on the earth, they lined up from morning till night to be healed. He was compassionate.

He looked at them with compassion. And this guy kind of showed that, and every time I watch that film,

I just see a Jesus that is more rounded than most times.

And yes, we do see the scene where he does call them whitewashed tombs, but it's almost a tearful calling them out.

Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem. And it's a passionate—and I just love that presentation so much.

That might be the reason I'm inclined to say I think I'm okay with representations of God. But on the other hand,

I also understand the idea of making graven images. One last thing, though. I think the admonition in making a graven image, while it could be making a physical representation, it definitely is about a heart and giving your worship to a false god.

Yes, because that was a part of the command. And if it were any kind of an image, the command specifically talks about birds and animals and fish and so on.

So obviously, we couldn't make any kind of a painting or a sculpture, even if it was just a decoration in our home, if it was just about making an image.

Well, that in the temple, if you recall, there was vivid imagery even in the temple. Yeah. So now there wasn't images of God.

But then again, at the time—and I'm not suggesting we should make pictures of Jesus or look for a Shroud of Turin—but obviously,

God is spirit, so they couldn't make an image of God. But they did have images in the temple.

Yeah, on the Ark of the Covenant, they had the cherubim and so on, too. By the way, can I sneak something in? Yeah, sure.

Jesus is the temple. Yes. That's what Jesus, under the book that we're talking about, the temple was a type of Jesus.

It pointed to Jesus. It was, if you will, a God of, if you recall, one day a year, his special presence on the

Day of Atonement, that he would come and he would be in the Holy of Holies only. A high priest, if he was cleansed, could go in.

For what purpose? For the covering of the sins of the people. But Jesus came and he tabernacled among us.

And Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 tells us—this isn't making this stuff up as some sort of goofy allegorical or some sort of strange way of interpreting the

Bible—Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 says that temple was a picture of Jesus. And I think, because in Hebrews it lists all of the furniture, that even the furniture in the temple pointed to Jesus.

The showbread, Jesus said, I am the bread of life. There was a laver that you needed for cleansing to do your priestly work.

And Jesus said to Peter, unless I wash you, you have no part of me. There was a light, a menorah, to light up the temple so that they could see to do their priestly work.

And Jesus announced, I am the light of the world. The curtain which separated the holy of holies from the holy place was torn when

Jesus died from top to bottom. And who is the curtain? The curtain is Jesus. And now we have access through the

Son to the Father. And in the holy place there was the Ark of the Covenant. What did you have there?

You had the mercy seat, blood sprinkled by the high priest. Jesus' blood was shed for the forgiveness, not the covering of sins.

He is the greater Melchizedek, the greater high priest. So everything in that temple was pointing to Jesus Christ as a way of God, just with shadows, fuzzy pictures in the

Old Testament pointing to Jesus Christ in the new. Amen. Well, we want to thank you so much,

Todd Frelo. I know that you have to leave us early today, but we look forward to when you can come back and maybe even spend an hour or two with us on Iron Trepans Iron.

Do you know that I have ADHD? Two hours, are you serious? Honestly, man.

Well, I'm hoping that you could come back and spend as much time as you want with us. And I know that your website is wretchedradio .com

for any of our listeners who want to discover your TV or radio program, wretchedradio .com. Thanks again,

Todd. I really appreciate you fitting us into your schedule today. This, you know what, Chris, really, this is a treat.

Thank you for being prepared. Thank you for asking thoughtful questions. Thank you to your listeners for some intelligent exchange here about something more profound than just politics.

So thank you for that, and good luck finding a new job tomorrow. Yes, and I know that what you have said has been very true in the lives of some of my fellow broadcasters who were fired by saying a single word against the papacy or anything like that, but I appreciate your condolences.

Well, it's kind of an amazing observation to me that in so much Christian radio, we're willing to alienate half of our audience by staking a claim in the ground that Democrats are bad and Republicans are good.

We'll alienate all Democrats from listening to us. But when it comes to theology, mum's the word, zip it, don't offend anybody, because we want—it's like, wait a second now, if we're willing to go on the line over politics, shouldn't we love people the truth and God enough to say, sorry,

I think you're wrong? Shouldn't we love them that much? Amen. And we allow people to debate over sports, over diet and exercise and politics, but as soon as people want to debate about theology, they're all of a sudden a nut job or a hateful bigot, and it's just ridiculous.

Yeah, I think if Paul were trying to sell his book of Galatians to the

Christian book chain, they wouldn't buy it to me. Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Well, Todd, I hope you can come back soon because there's a lot of other stuff we'd like to talk to you about in the near future. Thank you,

Chris. It was an honor. I appreciate it very much. All right. Well, God bless you, brother, and we'll be talking to you soon.

All right, bye. And coming up next, we have Mike Gaydosh of Solid Ground Christian Books.

He is going to be giving us updates on what's available through this excellent publishing ministry. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Mike, our email address is

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Mike Gaydosh.

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Introducing 1031 Sermon Jams. But now for the good news.

That sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears, especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need

Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you would like to learn more about 1031

Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams .com or follow us on Twitter or Facebook.

And by the way, welcome back.

For those of you who wrote in questions to Todd Friel and won his book free of charge,

Jesus Unmasked, the truth will shock you. Some of you have not sent in your mailing address, so email me your mailing address while you can, so we can ship that book out to you free of charge for being so kind as to contribute to our program today by asking a question of our guest

Todd Friel, and we look forward to having Todd Friel back. And now it's my privilege to welcome back my former pastor.

In fact, he was my very first pastor after being a born -again Christian by the sovereign grace of God, Mike Gaydosh, who is the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, one of the finest publishers in existence, and one of the most reliable book distributors that you can find.

And I'm not saying that out of flattery just because he's my friend and my former pastor, but it just happens to be the truth, and especially needs to be heard in midst of the fact that there are many publishers and publishing warehouses and book distributors on the internet and on street corners that have very dangerous, damning, and theologically and spiritually deadly things that they're pushing.

So we have to steer people to a correct and biblically honoring direction, and that's

Solid Ground Christian Books, which is found at solid -ground -books .com.

Solid -ground -books .com. Easier to type than it is to say,

I think. But welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend, Pastor Mike Gaydosh.

Thank you, Chris, for your kind words. It's a privilege to be with you again, and I know that many of those who are listening have heard me before, and we've talked about some of the older works that we've done, but I know you would ask me if I would introduce some of the new things that we have done or are in the process of doing, and I do have a few items that I'd like to mention that we're in the process of working on.

One of the books that we're in the process of doing is a book called Gospel Preaching by Peter Jeffrey.

Yes. Peter Jeffrey is a dear friend, Chris. I know you know him well, and Peter is a retired pastor from Wales, and Peter has written over 50 books.

This book is a tremendous burden that he has in his heart. Peter, as a pastor, every

Sunday evening was a gospel sermon, and he learned that from the

Welsh preachers. It was a very common thing for them. Lloyd -Jones did it. Sunday evening was their evangelistic sermon, and they would preach the gospel from anywhere from Genesis to Revelation, and Peter is very gifted at preaching the gospel.

He saw many, many people that were converted under his ministry for the many years that he pastored, and the book

Gospel Preaching is a book that is truly a book that is a passionate call for men to preach the gospel, and he speaks about the necessity of preaching the gospel and the fact that there are many pastors who don't seem to feel comfortable preaching the gospel.

They seem to be comfortable preaching to saints, but they don't seem to be comfortable preaching to sinners, and the book that we're publishing not only is by Peter, but he has some of his friends who have contributed.

John MacArthur has contributed one chapter on the condition of man. Owen Milton has produced a couple chapters, and Peyton Jones as well, and the chapters cover a variety of subjects and the importance of unction and preaching.

In the unction of the Holy Spirit, we've gotten endorsements from Earl Blackburn and Joel Beeke, Steve Martin, and several others, and we're excited about that book coming out.

There's also another book that I'm in the process of doing. It's going to take a little bit before I get it completed, but it's a book called, it has the unusual title,

How Not to Preach, and it's entitled that for a reason.

The pastor who published the book, who wrote the book, was a French Reformed pastor.

It was written in the mid -1800s, and he was a very close and intimate friend with Adolphe Manot, who is best known for the book

Manot's Farewell. Manot is the pastor who died of cancer, and for the last six months of his life, he spoke to a portion of his congregation from his sickbed, which became his deathbed.

I remember you published a booklet years ago with Calvary Press when you were running that,

A Dying Man's Regrets. That was an excellent booklet. Correct. The Dying Man's Regrets, those are five of the messages extracted from the book, five messages that he preached, because he didn't know how long he was going to live.

He was speaking every Sunday afternoon, and he did that right up until the last

Sunday that he lived, and in the midst of those messages, he did that series called

The Dying Man's Regrets, and he had five messages and just powerful, powerful stuff. Well, this man,

Napoleon Roussel, was a very close friend of Manot, and Roussel preached many, many, very, apparently very famous sermons in France back in the 1800s, and he did a book that he entitled

How Not to Preach. He introduces the book by saying, How Not to Preach, what an odd title.

Why would you not choose something positive? And then he asked the question, Dear Reader, let me ask you a question.

Why did you pick this book up to read? Is it not because of the title?

Would you have picked up this book if it had simply said, Advice to Preachers? And he says, So therefore, this title,

How Not to Preach, has turned out to be the very reason that you're reading the book. And he goes on and describes his reason for writing the book, and he dedicates the book.

I don't know that I've ever seen a dedication the way he dedicated it. Guess who he dedicated the book to? Who? To himself.

And the reason he dedicated it to himself is, he says, Who else would I dedicate it to? I've learned how not to preach most by listening to you.

And so he has a very good sense of humor.

He goes through the entire book, and the way that the book is divided, he has seven men whom he names

Eusebius, Cyprian, Antonius, Horace. He has seven different men.

He names them, and then he describes the kind of preachers that they were in demonstrating the weaknesses of their preaching styles.

And he basically is caricaturing three different men, or seven different men, and using these fictitious names to describe the manner of preaching that has been done by so many different men.

There's one man in particular, I don't remember what his name was in the book, but I think it's

Cyprian. I think that's what it was. And he describes this Cyprian, and he says, one

Sunday morning, he introduced himself to a pastor at his home, and the two of them walked together for about a half an hour to the church where the man was going to be preaching that day.

And Rousseau says, he had an absolutely amazing conversation with this man.

He was animated. He was lively. He had humor. He had warmth. He said, after 15 minutes,

I couldn't believe that I didn't know this man my whole life. He said, we bid goodbye to each other.

He went into the vestry. I went into the pew. And he said, about 15 minutes later, a dark gown came walking out of the back, solemnly walked up the pulpit steps.

And he said, this dark gown, he said, I didn't have my glasses, so I couldn't see clearly.

But he said, I could not believe it was the same man that I had just had this lively conversation with.

And he said, he started to listen to the man preach, and he was convinced it couldn't possibly be the man he had just had a conversation with.

He said, he leaned over to the man sitting next to him and said, what's the name of this preacher? And he said,

Cyprian. And then he says, I asked him, does he always preach like this?

And he said, always. Never different? He said, never. And he said,

I could not believe that this was the same man. He said, he got into the pulpit, and he sought to be something other than he was.

He said, if he would have simply continued the same method of communication that he had had with me, he said, everybody would have been hanging on the edge of their seats, listening.

And he said that the problem is, men fall into patterns in the pulpit. And many times, those patterns are anything but helpful to the people.

And so he just gives these examples, and they're very, very vivid, very, very helpful, very encouraging, and at the same time, convicting as well.

But the name of that book is How Not to Preach. And his name is Napoleon Roussel.

That was his name. Yeah, I remember I had to give, or should I say,

I had to make an announcement when I was conducting one of my pastor's luncheons a number of years ago, and I was giving out to the pastors,

T. David Gordon's book, Why Johnny Can't Preach. I had to prepare the preachers there that I was not insulting anyone in particular by handing these books out.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have to be careful on who you give those to and what you say to them when you give them the book.

Well, that's a good point. And in fact, I think that Gordon's book is, of course, that's also one of those uniquely named books, you know,

Why Johnny Can't Preach. It's captivating just in the title itself.

It kind of draws you in, just as this idea of how not to preach kind of does the same thing.

A couple of other things that I'm working on right now. We have a book that is going to be coming out sometime this next month by two pastors in Georgia, Kurt Smith and Brandon Smith.

They're not brothers. Brothers in Christ, but they're not brothers, physical brothers.

And they have put together a book that's entitled The Gospel Heritage of Georgia Baptists. And while it is about Georgia Baptists, it is a fascinating book that would be of value to anyone to read.

What their purpose is in doing the book is to introduce Baptists, particularly in Georgia, to the solid roots of the doctrines of grace in the

Georgia Baptists. The first three chapters are biographical, looking at the two marshals and Jesse Mercer, and then the last five chapters deal with the doctrines of grace, the five points of Calvinism.

And it's not the author's effort to try to convince somebody of the doctrines of grace, but to simply demonstrate that the

Georgia Baptists from 1770 to 1830 held firmly to the doctrines of grace.

And it's an amazing story of church planting and persecution that these men went through for the gospel, for the sake of the gospel of Christ, and especially for the doctrines of grace.

And that's going to be a beautiful hardcover book that's going to be coming out in, yeah, sometime in late

October, early November. And the goal is to get, they have someone has donated money to be able to have that book printed and delivered to all 3 ,900 churches in Georgia.

Wow. Baptist, Southern Baptist churches. It's quite an undertaking, a generous gift from people who have a burden for the faith and desire to have people on what we believe as Baptists.

And that's called the Gospel Heritage of Georgia Baptists. Well, that's excellent.

Yeah. I know that from what our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White has said on his

Dividing Line program, he gets attacked very often verbally. I mean, not physically, verbally or in writing by Baptists from Georgia who are very anti -Calvinists.

So obviously that's a very valuable project to be shipping out. Oh, yeah. I couldn't believe when

I was told that there were 3 ,900 Southern Baptist churches just in Georgia alone. And that's just in Atlanta.

Yeah, that's right. No, actually, that's the whole state. But yes, I'm only kidding. And there are a lot more.

Well, see, the thing is, there are a lot more Baptist churches than just the Southern Baptist churches. But the audience that they're going after is specifically the

Southern Baptist churches there in Georgia. Yes, because the Southern Baptist Convention has forgotten completely its heritage, other than the remnant, like Tom Askell and the folks from the

Founders Ministries. And in fact, one of the things that we're going to have to avoid in doing this is we're not going to be having endorsements from any of the men that we normally would request endorsements from because it would not be received well by the people who are going to be receiving the book.

So we're going to seek to avoid. And now we do have Tom Nettles, who has written the introduction. And some of them may know

Tom Nettles and may have a negative feeling towards him. But be that as it may, we felt that it's important to have

Tom's name attached to the project. And so his name is attached, but we're trying to get some other men who would be more moderate in their positions, not anti -anti -Calvinist, but men who would at least be moderate enough if their name is attached to the book, it would not be a put -off or a turn -off to the average

Southern Baptist pastor in Georgia. So we're trying to be very careful about the way we do this.

We're doing it in a really nice hardcover, smite -sewn, full -color cover because we feel as if we're sending this to each church, if we have a really beautiful book, that the chances of them tossing it in the garbage are much less.

Whereas if you send them just kind of a pamphlet or whatever, there's a pretty good chance that just immediately they don't even look at it.

So we're trying to make sure we spare no expense on it and do it in a really, really nice way.

And of course, the book will be available to everyone, not just to those that we're sending it to, but we do believe it's going to be a valuable tool going forward for the

Baptists in Georgia in particular. And then one other book that we're working on is a book by a friend,

Ed Wallen, called Leaving Darkland. And the book starts off with Ed.

Ed is a dear friend of mine here in Birmingham and starts off with the story of an accident that took place many years ago.

And it involved Ed's wife and his only daughter. And in the accident, his daughter died at 11 years old, and his wife was very seriously injured and never recovered emotionally or mentally from the accident.

And so in effect, Ed really lost his wife and his daughter that day. And he tells the story of how the

Lord restored him. And then the book itself is entitled Leaving Darkland, D -A -R -K, capital

L -A -N -D. And it's basically seeking to help people to walk through the challenges of life.

And he just takes you through all the various circumstances of life that you can go through and just brings

Scripture to bear. It's a very, very helpful book. Timothy George has agreed to write the forward to the book.

And he's, he has, Ed has, many, many different people have already written some wonderful endorsements for this book.

And that's hopefully going to be coming out sometime in November as well. Well, that will be very appropriate for any of our listeners who are in the

Roseburg, Oregon area. We do have a couple of listeners today, especially since we were addressing that with a pastor from Roseburg, Oregon.

Yes, yes. So obviously anybody who's listening, you might want to make note of that book and to give it out to those in need while they are mourning or grieving or just among many who are experiencing the shock of what happened in their local community there.

Well, I think that I remember reading many, many years ago, if you preach to broken hearts, you'll always have an audience.

And I have found that to be true. And one of the things, in fact, that the book

How Not to Preach addresses is the fact that so many times men are more concerned about their sermon than they are about the people that they're preaching to.

And they're more, and others are more concerned about their reputation as a preacher than they are of the people to whom they're speaking, actually being ministered to.

And that's one of the things that I think is so important. And I think Ed does an excellent job of being able to take people.

He uses a lot of the letters of John Newton. He's a lover of John Newton's letters, has read them through many, many times, and he has selected very carefully and very wisely from the letters of Newton and has used them as well as many of the solid

Christian hymns as well as, of course, the scriptures themselves to seek to bring solace and comfort and encouragement and strength to the people of God.

Amen. Any final words in the two minutes or so that we have left that you want to just unburden your heart with and have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they go?

I think that the thing that has really struck me recently is a passage in 2

Corinthians that has really become a part of my own life recently.

And it's the passage in 2 Corinthians 1 where the Apostle Paul is defending himself against the accusations of the false apostles who had infiltrated

Corinth and were accusing him of being a phony and a double -minded man.

And the Apostle Paul defends himself in a very appropriate way.

And he concludes the chapter by making a statement, not that we lord it over your faith, but we are fellow workers with you for your joy.

And those words have really struck me that the great danger in the ministry today is lording it over the faith of people, the danger of seeking to become an authority over the people that is inappropriate for a pastor.

And Paul, the Apostle, even said that we do not lord it over your faith.

And he contrasts that with what he did do. He says, we seek to be a fellow worker together with you for your joy.

We are told that the joy of the Lord is our strength. And if there is anything that we are to do who handle the

Word of God, it is to seek to be a worker with people for their joy, to seek to be an encourager, to seek to be one who is going to be encouraging one another day after day, as long as it is still called today.

We all face trials and challenges that are extremely difficult, that are far beyond our ability.

But God is great and God is good. And it is our joy to know

Him, to serve Him and to make Him known to others. And to this day, every opportunity that I have to teach, every opportunity

I have to preach, I seek to always keep those things in my mind. That my desire is to encourage and to help people to have the joy of the

Lord that is going to rule their lives. Amen. And I know your website is solid -ground -books .com.

Solid -ground -books .com. Thank you so much for being our guest today, Pastor Mike Gaydosh. And I look forward to having you back soon.

And don't forget, everybody, Ken Ham, the world -renowned creationist apologist, will be our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.