October 6, 2015 Show with Jeff Scott on “The Shootings in Roseburg, Oregon: A Christian Response” PLUS Todd Friel on “Jesus Unmasked! The Truth Will Shock You!” AND Mike Gaydosh of Solid Ground Books

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of October 2015 and we've got three guests today on Iron Sharpens Iron.

We're going to start off the program with another pastor from Oregon who is going to be giving his reflections and biblical insights on the recent horrific tragedy that we've all heard about, the murder that took place on a college campus in Roseburg, Oregon and then we're going to be hearing from Todd Friel.

Many of you know who Todd Friel is. He is the host of Wretched TV on the National Religious Broadcasters Network and he's also got a radio show, a daily radio show, Wretched Radio. He is going to be our guest for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron to address his book, Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You.

And then following Todd Friel, we're going to have Mike Gaydosh on. He is the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books. He's been a guest on this broadcast a number of times and we're going to be hearing updates on what jewels of Christian literature are available from the press at Solid Ground Christian Books.

The Roseburg Tragedy and a Christian Response

But going back to our first guest, as most of you, if not all of you know by now, on the morning of October 1st of this year, a young man entered a classroom at Umpqua Community College, began shooting people with the result that nine died and 10 others were seriously wounded.

And we have to reflect on this. A local pastor there in Roseburg, Pastor Jeff Scott, who is the pastor of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon, which is a congregation within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.

And we are so delighted that he could take the time out of his schedule at a very important time to discuss his thoughts in the aftermath of this tragedy here on our soil here in the United States. And I'd like to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Jeff Scott.

Thank you, Chris. Before we even go into the subject at hand, let our listeners know something about Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church and also about the.

Denomination to which you belong, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Amen. And so am I. I'm not.

In the OPC, but I have many dear friends who are in the OPC. One of the greatest encouragements I've ever received on an ongoing basis throughout the years that I've done this program, which started in 2006, came to a halt in 2011 after my precious wife went home to glory, and then I just relaunched it on June 1st of this year.

And Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York, has been an enormous source of encouragement to me. He has got radio in his blood. He has been doing it since he was in college, and I look forward to any kind of new radio projects he may be working on himself.

But, well, it's great to have you on the program, and this has been another thing that has got people discussing the theodicy. It has people discussing how could a loving God exist if these kinds of things happen, these horrific, horrible, nightmarish scenarios.

We have a young, deeply disturbed individual, obviously having some kind of an axe to grind specifically against Christians, as I understand, because he deliberately executed those who specifically said that they were Christians when he asked them, and the others he seriously wounded.

But when someone brings up this incident in conversation, how do you like to direct this discussion, especially since you are a local pastor right.

In Roseburg? Even Christians will say that. That's a great point. My friend Dr. James R. White of.

Omega Ministries debated David Silverman, who is the current president of American Atheists, and the thesis that David Silverman was defending was that the New Testament is evil. We had that as a topic because James was originally going to debate another world-renowned atheist, Christopher Hitchens, on the same issue because that was connected to a chapter heading in Christopher Hitchens' book, and he developed cancer, so we had to debate David Silverman.

That is an interesting thing because an atheist has no place where to stand and call anything evil, because if we're just highly evolved bags of protoplasm, then where do they get off telling us what is and what is not evil?

And what evil is did not stand reason for.

And since you are a local Roseburg, Oregon pastor, were any of the students at that college, Umpqua Community College, are any of the students there members of Covenant Grace Presbyterian.

Church of Roseburg? Yes, as small as our congregation is, we do have two, actually three. Wow. I'm going to say with confidence, although I don't know the student who's a member.

Of the congregation where you pastor, that his life was spared by God's providence placing him somewhere else where he was supposed to be in that classroom. When I say supposed to be, I mean according to his schedule.

I can only assume with confidence that no matter how strong his faith in Christ was before, I'm sure that he is all the more diligent to pursue knowing and loving Christ in a more deep way now that he knows in such a tangible way that he had his life spared.

In such a providential occurrence. Now why in light of that?

Do you hear in your community a lot of vengeful speech? Because that not only occurs amongst the lost or the non-Christian folks, you hear a lot of stuff like that right in our own churches. People who are filled with anger and rage and vengeance against anyone who would do such a dastardly thing, people wanting to torture and kill people who have committed such a crime, and sometimes even comments like that do, as I said, flow from the lips and hearts and minds of Christians.

But what is your response to that kind of reaction to what we've learned about from.

Your hometown? I mean if God were to lift his hand of restraint on the evil that is within all of us,.

We don't even know right now what we would be capable of doing or what we would do. When you even think about horrific murders that have taken place and people have lived in many occasions exemplary lives straight up to the point of the murders they committed.

I mean sometimes decades of being outstanding members of the community in many respects and husbands and fathers and wonderful children to their parents and neighbors and so on, you have to really come to a theological understanding of how evil men are before we begin to speak with such harsh.

Accusation towards people who are involved in sin, correct? Absolutely. News that you could hear in I think, and I want to remind our listeners if you have a question of your own, our email address.

Is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. If you write, please include at least your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside, if you live outside of the United States. Please only remain anonymous if this is a personal or private situation that you are asking about.

Do you or any of your congregation, I'm sure the one individual who was a member of that very class where the murders took place, but have you heard or learned anything in more deep fashion about those nine brave students who lost their lives.

That day? So far. And it is quite humbling to all of us who are Christians when we see people that.

Even though knowing they would most likely be executed, confess their faith in Christ, nonetheless, and it's a very humbling thing because it makes you sit and wonder if you would have that kind of courage, conviction, and dedication to Christ.

That's one of those things where the stories we've heard from the Fox's book of martyrs and even the stories we've heard about Christians in the Middle East who have been executed by Muslims because they refuse to recant their faith, that comes right home to our own backyard and it's quite a humbling.

Thing. And my response? We do have a listener from Lebanon, Oregon, who's written in, Sophie,.

Who asks, it looks like President Obama is coming to Oregon. Can you ask your guest his feelings on this when he is on the show? Okay, so if you'd like to express your opinion on that.

Mm-hmm. In my opinion... Yes, and of course, I'm sure many people who vehemently oppose.

President Obama would be vehemently angry if he didn't make any effort to show up.

Sure. Well, and that's one of the... We're going to be going to our first station break,.

So if you'd like to join us on the air, let me remind you our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private matter. We'll be right back with Pastor Jeff Scott of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon, as we discuss his reflections on the recent horrific executions that took place.

We'll be right back after these messages to continue the discussion, so don't go away. Attention coin collectors and investors, Long Island Galleries of Wading River, New York has brilliant uncirculated 19th century Morgan silver dollars for only $54 per coin, with free shipping and handling for a limited time.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned us in, our guest has been and will be for the remainder of this half hour, Jeff Scott, pastor of the Grace Covenant Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon, which is where the Umpqua Community College is located.

And as everyone or most of you at least know, there was a horrible tragedy there where a crazed gunman murdered nine students and seriously wounded others. And those who were murdered were murdered upon their profession of Jesus Christ when specifically asked if they believed in him.

And we are getting a local pastor's insights in his biblical gleanings on how to respond when folks in our communities all over the United States and all over the world bring this up in discussion and how we are to ultimately bring praise, honor, and glory to Jesus Christ and draw others to him through our witness.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And Pastor Jeff, do you have any immediate plans as a church, Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church, to reach out to those involved in the horrific events that took.

Place at the community college there? The past few days that we heard from them, how they, in the aftermath of that, were best able to bring... What counsel or advice can you give as a pastor.

On how we can minister to those in our own families, communities, neighborhoods, when they are suffering from a tragic loss? Obviously, perhaps there are, in fact, we know there are people nearby you.

We have one listener who just already emailed us a question. So we know that there are at least one person near you that is listening to this broadcast, and there may be a number more who may want counsel on how to actually respond with the love of Christ to those involved in this incident, this specific incident.

But obviously, all of us no matter where we live, we will inevitably always encounter someone who has lost a loved one, someone who has even lost a loved one in a very horrific and tragic way, and perhaps even snuffed out of life at a very tender age.

What words of counsel do you have for all of us? Yes,.

We must say, right, give people... We cannot short... you can't... much good... likely doesn't have this knowledge or categories already. We have no other remedy, right? Interrupt here this week, and the answer is always the same.

And maybe, if you could, let us know about mistakes.

That even well-meaning Christians make when they are attempting to comfort those who are grieving. I even know when I have experienced some very tragic loss in my own life with precious loved ones who have passed, and sometimes you hear some incredible things from the lips of fellow believers, even those that believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

I recall one individual saying to me that he was surprised that it was taking me so long to grieve, because I'm supposed to believe in God's foreordination of all things, and I believe in His sovereignty.

You know, it was almost like, come on, snap out of it. Don't you know that even according to what you firmly believe, God has brought all things to pass according to His will? Now, obviously, can't people, even when stating theological fact, do so in a harmful way, and in an unchristian way, and in an unbiblical way?

Even if they are speaking truth, the manner with which they do it may be very much at fault and flawed.

Oh, boy, I must. Even as they, but doesn't mean these,.

I have heard from people who have experienced great, horrific, tragic loss in their lives, the loss of children at very young ages, and other things, who have told me that one of the mistakes that Christians make is to tell someone who is mourning, I know exactly how you feel.

These people who have, even some of them written on the subject, have told me it is very good if you have something in common with them to make them aware of that, such as, let me tell you that I have also lost children at a young age, or whatever the case may be.

I also have a son that was murdered, or something, whatever they have in common with the person. But that is a different thing entirely than to say, I know exactly how you feel, because we don't. Everybody's relationship with their children and their spouses is a very unique and personal thing, and things will vary widely in how people react.

Christians react very differently at the death of loved ones, and spouses, and children, and even the most seasoned of Christians do not all respond in.

Identical manner. So, do you have anything further to add on that? That's what I know not be completely true, that you know how they feel. You don't know the backstory. Mm-hmm. Yes, and I think that it's also one thing that I've heard with my own ears.

Christians.

Say, which amazes me, is they will assume from a handful of facts that a person who has been murdered or has died, they will assume, if they have not personally heard about this person's Christian faith, they will assume that that person is lost and damned to eternity, and they will even say that to people.

And, you know, if we're not with someone when they are taking their final breath, even if they've been a lost person their entire life, or even an enemy of Christ, if we don't really know for a fact that they died with that rejection, we have no place.

To say with certainty that somebody is lost. Am I right? You're right, Chris. We do have a listener,.

And I hope I'm not mispronouncing this, but it's either Palatine or Palatine, Illinois, or maybe it's neither. I just don't know how to pronounce it. Palatine. Palatine, okay. We have David in Palatine, Illinois, who asks if you feel that the recent persecution of Christians here in the United States will be the match that strikes a revival, first in the church, then out toward the unbelievers.

Is this the beginning of an opportunity to be the love of Christ that we saw in the first century church that impacted leaders of that time to convert to Christianity, or will the church miss another opportunity to unite?

It's a very large series of questions, but if you could briefly, because we're going to be running out of time very shortly.

Well, I hope this could be my friend, Dave, from Palatine, Illinois,.

Give us the time for us to look at that. And if you could just leave our listeners right now, Pastor Jeff, with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds when they leave this.

Program today. I just said, shining. Do you have any books? I mean, obviously, the Scriptures,.

The holy, inerrant, inspired Word of God would be the first book or collection of books that you would refer to people, but any other recommendations for books written by godly men about.

Recovering from a tragedy such as this? I prepared ahead of time to think about that.

I could, off the top of my head, say R .C. Sproul's Surprised by Suffering, and Trusting God Even When Life Hurts by Jerry Bridges. Grieving Our Path Back to Peace by Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is an excellent little book.

Excellent, there you go. And I want to make sure our listeners have your website, CovenantGraceChurch .com, that's CovenantGraceChurch .com, and that church is in Roseburg, Oregon. Any other contact information you care to give today, Pastor Jeff?

Yes, I've put out on Facebook. You can find us on Facebook.

That's 541 -733 -8425. 541 -733 -8425. Thank you so much, Pastor Jeff Scott of Covenant Grace Presbyterian Church in Roseburg, Oregon. We look forward to having you back on the program in the.

Near future. Thank you, Chris. God bless.

And I want everybody to know that Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio is coming on next, and he is going to be discussing his book, Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You. If you have a question for Todd Friel, you can email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And we look forward to receiving your emails with your questions after these messages, so don't go away. Attention coin collectors and investors.

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Call 888 -260 -8111. 888 -260 -8111. Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express welcome. Price is subject to change, so call now at 888 -260 -8111. 888 -260 -8111. If you prefer ordering your brilliant uncirculated 19th century Morgan silver dollars by check, mail it today to Long Island Galleries, 9 Susan Drive, Wading River, New York, 11792.

That's Long Island Galleries, 9 Susan Drive, Wading River, New York, 11792. Remember, they're only $54 per coin, with free shipping and handling, and a 40 coin limit. New York State residents must add sales tax.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes, and I'm very excited about our next guest who is here for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron, Todd Friel. Many of you may recognize that name. He is the host of Wretched Radio and TV.

I was told quite a long time ago that you've got to hear about this guy, Todd Friel. He's not only funnier than you, he is by far more intelligent than you are, Chris. I had to search out who this person was, discovered his program, fell in love with it, and I just am so delighted to have you as a guest for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron,.

Todd Friel. Well, this is a problem. I just called this number to win the two tickets to the Stephen Curtis Chapman concert. Did I win? No, we're all out of those. You're all out. Thank you for having.

Me. It's a treat. Yes, well, it's more of a treat for us, I'm sure. We'll see. Before we go into your book, Jesus Unmasked, the truth will shock you. Tell us something about Wretched Radio and.

TV. Program, and we do a 30-minute daily TV show. We'd like to think, now this, we actually think that Jesus Christ... That's an excellent explanation, and I agree with it because I've.

Seen your program a number of times and quite enjoy it and try to make it a regular habit in my life, actually. Let me just read a couple of commendations for your book, both by men who have been on my radio program.

First, Ted Tripp. Perhaps many of you recognize him from his book, Shepherding a Child's Heart. He writes, Todd Friel has written the book you always wanted to give your friends, Jesus Unmasked, is clear, direct, and simple, all without ever being shallow.

Get several copies so you can share them with friends who need Jesus. And also, Phil Johnson, who I've probably interviewed more than anybody on this program, he writes, no matter where you are in the Christian walk, you'll find Jesus Unmasked a profitable and spiritually uplifting study.

That's Phil Johnson, who's the executive director of Grace to You, the radio and television ministry of world-renowned Bible teacher John MacArthur. This is a real...

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I am going to have to send them texts. That is not at all what I told them to write about. Let me tell you a story about Ted Tripp. He's the parent, he's Mr. Shepherding a Child's Heart, so he's the parenting guru, right?

So a few years ago, we invited him to come to us. I didn't think he'd say yes in a gazillion years. So I call up my wife, who loves Ted. He's got to come and stay at our... He's not staying at our house.

We're not having the parenting expert at our house. And he did. He stayed, and then squared off.

Yeah, I remember I stopped Ted Tripp in his tracks during a conference, during a question and answer session. I said, do you think it was correct of me when my nephew was starting to set fire to the drapes in my mother's home, and I grabbed a hold of him and smacked him in the head, was that appropriate behavior?

And he said, how old is your nephew? I said, 37.

Well, you've got bigger problems than drapes.

Well, this book obviously has a very provocative title, Jesus Unmasked. You are obviously coming from the perspective that most people, in fact, perhaps even most evangelicals, have a false.

View of who Jesus Christ really is. Yeah, you know, I don't think there's a... Also get that from Acts chapter 2 and Acts chapter 4, when Peter talked about God's pre-arranged plan for godless men to deliver the Son of God to be Christ.

So the book, Jesus Unmasked, goes about the business exactly without getting all goofy, finding all...

Do you think that many people, and even Christians, have overly simplified the love of God in their picture of Jesus, that they not only believe but present to those around them? They love to talk about the meek and mild baby in the manger lying there helpless, and they love to speak about the Jesus who forgives and so on.

Of course, the forgiving Jesus, we all love the forgiving and merciful Jesus, because we'd all be in hell without that, but do they overly simplify that and totally remove his wrath in far too many places,.

In your opinion? We can't live without you, and he loves you this much, and he gets gooey and sentimental. On the other hand, if we proclaim God as nothing but... Yeah, excellent. I've witnessed very.

Often when people leave cults that are very authoritarian and have a loveless Christ, or not even a cult, but perhaps just a unbalanced church that has that presentation of Christ being all about wrath, they run into the arms of liberalism or universalism that paints the overly simplistic understanding of Jesus as just being a loving guru from the 60s, that's just out there to pass out flowers and tell everybody that he loves them.

Perhaps that's why we have an epidemic situation in the church today, where there is very rarely repentance and wrath spoken of. It's perhaps because of the sins of the churches of our fathers and grandfathers that went too far in the other direction.

Again, welcome to Calvary. We do have some questions from listeners for you,.

Todd, and the first is from Bruce, and he is located in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. He says, what does Jesus believe about slavery, and why would he ordain pagan nations to be.

Enslaved? Yeah, that was as it's not century slavery in the time of the people of least work. It talks about slavery, but it doesn't... We have another listener. We have Bob in White.

Plains, New York, who asks, in view of the Pope's visit,. I find it very hard not to actually get angry to think that these Catholics, of whom I was one, can actually believe this man is the embodiment and representation of Jesus Christ on earth.

To listen to every one of them that's lived in my lifetime stumble through the most inane discussions that are no deeper than someone in sixth grade religion school drives me crazy. Jesus is nothing like these aged feeble men describe.

They're claiming to be in the representation of the creator of the universe. For goodness sake, my creator doesn't drool when he speaks. All right. I think that Bob perhaps went over the line a little bit, but if you could comment on Bob's comment,.

It was more of a comment than a question, really. Chris, how long have you been on the air?

Well, since June 1st, but before then, about six years.

Yeah. Well, I hope you enjoyed your last day. Most radio programs don't even allow such conversation. That was, I wasn't surprised, was either the Antichrist or at least the office of paper. Paragraph nine, Roman Protestantism, the evangelical community.

Amen. And by the way, I want to tell Bruce and Bob that you are receiving a free copy of Jesus Unmasked, The Truth Will Shock You, compliments of the publishers, and you should be getting those books in about a week or so.

And we have a couple more for anyone else who can join us before Todd has to leave the air. In fact, we do have another listener in Lebanon, Oregon. Sophie asks, is it right for us to ask, what would Jesus do?

Or would it be better of us to ask, what do the scriptures say? Same thing. So you're not opposed to the, I don't think it's that big now, but when it came out, there was a, what would Jesus do craze in the church and there.

Were bracelets and bumper stickers and t-shirts. Sure. Yeah. I think the hype made it a little bit trite, but ultimately we should be, I think if we wanted to be more precise, we'd probably be better off asking.

So letters. Amen. And going back to your response to.

Bob's comments about the Pope, I've had a lot of people who are my Roman Catholic friends. Some of them are from people that I don't know these comments, but a number of them are from close friends, childhood friends.

I was raised Roman Catholic, went to parochial school, was an altar boy for a number of years in Catholic school for eight years, but saved by the sovereign grace of God in my mid twenties. And thankfully have been in a good, solid Bible believing church ever since.

They misunderstand when I talk about the Pope being a false leader, someone who cannot be trusted, that he is committing blasphemy by accepting the titles of Holy Father and allowing people to bow before him and kiss his ring and things like that.

How do you separate in people's minds when you are responding to their accusations that you are a hateful bigot? How is it best to separate the fact that you are just informing them of vital truth and trying to correct error rather than being just a mean spirited person who is trying to tear down their cherished beliefs and so on?

This might be help.

Or in a movement that most even monstrously called the New Apostle and N .A .R. New Apostle Lot. I can see what the Bible says. Try to focus on... Excellent, excellent. We have another.

Listener. We have Christian in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who asks, I never heard Todd describe with labels what he considers his theology to be. I don't know if he is fond of.

Labels or not, but would he consider himself a five-point Calvinist? Okay. Ask me. What is your theology, Todd? Perfect. It's absolutely perfect. That's what I wanted to say. You would have to... My wife doesn't know exactly what my label is.

Amen. And there are also the difficulties that.

Arise when you say that you're just a Biblicist or a Bible-believing Christian because there are people who are in cults who say the same thing about themselves. Yeah. So obviously it's not as easy as just saying that you believe in the scriptures to make your identity clear, but I guess you're speaking about just letting the scriptures speak for themselves as far as what.

You believe. Well, I'm not listening to that. I'm going to let... I could be a politician with that answer.

I'm going to let Sophie from Lebanon, Oregon, have a second question. We typically don't allow listeners to have two, but this was such a good one because there's a lot of disagreement on it. How do you respond to pictures of Jesus?

We don't know what he looks like, so is it.

Appropriate to have pictures and paintings of him? Yeah. This goes back to a little debate called there were some... of anybody. And even at the time... Yes. I think that I can be okay with it much. I truly, I get both sides of the issue and I don't have a definite.