May 17, 2018 Show with Phil Johnson on “Racialism Gone Wild: When Hyper-Sensitivity & Preoccupation Over Skin Color & Ethnic Differences Eclipses the Gospel that Unites All in Christ”

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Chris good afternoon,. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth were listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Thursday on the 17th day of May 2018. I'm delighted to have back as a returning guest on iron sharpens iron radio today. My old friend Phil Johnson who I believe could very well be the most frequently interviewed guest in the history of iron sharpens iron radio and We are going to be discussing something that we're not Comfortable about discussing but we believe it needs to be discussed.

Phil Johnson is the executive director of grace to you the radio television and literary ministry of John MacArthur and Today we are speaking on Racialism gone wild when hypersensitivity and preoccupation over skin color and ethnic differences Eclipses the gospel that unites us all in Christ and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Phil Johnson. Thank you, Chris. Good to be with you. And let me immediately give our listeners our Email address. It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And I think that you would agree with me Excuse me At the outset of the program if we make it clear that when we use terms like races and things like that We both believe that there is only one race the human race.

We're using Just the common vernacular when it comes to words like race and racism and so on. This is Really helped to confuse the issue on.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, and in and that's a very important point. I think right at the outset because scripture repeatedly makes this this point that that that God has made all men of one blood one race and.

And that and no one is to be called unclean particularly in the church. With those who are united part of the same body. To fragment the church into little is a dangerous thing.

Well, I was interviewing during the second hour of my program yesterday a wonderful brother a Reformed Baptist in Indianapolis a pastor and director of global missions Excuse me. Dr. Erskine Dodson, and he was completely out of the loop and unaware about the current media.

What's the best word of putting this the the the war is going on the infighting and the Slandering and all kinds of things going on in the name of race in the name of social justice and. And basically what is going on?

And perhaps you could add to this That there are a number of People who happen to have dark skin I happen to be black individuals who are professedly reformed and probably most known for the blogosphere their their participation in the blogosphere being popular bloggers some even authors and conference speakers who are basically saying that many Christians.

Predominantly white Christians. But even some of our black brethren who are saying the same things as James White and you and others on this issue. They're saying that we are either consciously or unconsciously guilty of spreading racism and racial bigotry etc, etc and The thing that amazes me is that some of it Is In a reaction and an anger and a response To things like we as Christians should be colorblind, which is something that all people who opposed racism decades ago would firmly believe and it seems that that and in and of itself is now deemed as being Racist and it's the thing that's kind of spooky and eerie to me is that some of the rhetoric that I'm hearing from black brethren on this issue sounds eerily familiar in.

In connection with white segregationists, you know, I'm saying but if you could comment on and add to what I just said.

Yeah, no, that's true and and yet I think the biggest problem actually comes from white people who Want to jump on what's a politically correct? bandwagon at the moment identity politics and in my view identity politics is is Simply a different form of racist.

It's like the mirror to me identity politics has revived racism in America when it seems like at the very moment when racial strife was Finally beginning to sort of fade into the back beginning to get beyond that.

Now there's more racial strife and more tension between You know various ethnic groups then there was even five or ten years ago, it's a sad thing to see and Yeah, the fact that evangelicals they want to make started ostensibly because Wanting to bring together diverse people Around our common commitment to the gospel.

So the idea was to unite the church around what's most important the gospel recognizing that there are Doctrinal issues and and maybe even cultural issues that we would disagree on political issues things like that but we're in solid agreement on the gospel and that's what's most important and and I was More than willing to lend my support to that idea.

I think it's It's really what we're taught in Scripture, but now conventions where has been the subject and yet rather than any kind of Reconciliation it should do is stir over an issue That's not the gospel and I just think that's ironic that a group that was Founded that any group that was founded to to bring about unity around the gospel something.

That's not that well.

How Phil Johnson Was Drawn Into the Controversy

Let's hear how you personally got dragged into this controversy. And I know because you have been At least in some measure under attack or criticism or even have been slandered in the midst of all of this Blogosphere war going on in regard to race where where many people are being falsely accused tragically and sinfully and wickedly accused of Racism.

And and let's be clear. I hate racism. I'm 65 years old So I lived through as a child and an adolescent at the peak of the not the hardcore Enforced by law segregation, but it just weren't any black students in the schools.

I went to until junior high and then They began to desegregate the schools and I was one of those who who was excited about that enthusiastic about harmony between various ethnicities and Worked hard for that.

My mom Was a remedial reading teacher who was hired to teach students who had difficulty reading in inner city in an inner city school in Tulsa, Oklahoma and She passed up opportunities for more lucrative teaching jobs.

Because her question was who's going to teach these urban children to read if I don't and she devoted her life to You know teaching disadvantaged students how to read. There was what I said, praise God.

Yeah, and there was no one who hated racism or even the hint of racist and So, you know when when a leading evangelical publishes an article in websites saying that everybody who's white needs to Complicity of their parents and grandparents in the murder of Martin Luther King, which is the claim that was made I Take that as an insult at my mom and what she devoted her life to and I'm not about to pretend That that I need to confess my personal complicity or my parents complicity in the murder of Martin Luther King it's it's just an absurd notion and it's racist at its heart.

I can't think of a more a more blatantly racist accusation to make.

Yeah, it's really. It's for lack of a better term. I think it's insane.

Really? Yeah, the claim is you're guilty because of the color of your skin and you need to repent of that. Yeah, and that's just the assumption and it is it is the the moral equivalent of the kind of racism that Brought about the Jim Crow era.

Yeah.

My mother for instance she viewed the n-word if it was uttered in my household by Myself or my friends as kids because kids will repeat all kinds of horrible things. My mother treated that as a curse word.

My mother would you know would punish me or my siblings for saying those kinds of things. Now, of course We can't go overboard and say that we are sinless people. I'm not saying that I had never had a racist thought or never told a racist joke in my life but there is a difference between Having as a part of your sin nature, especially before Christ or even a part of the sin that we carry with you.

Something that may be a sin in our mind and heart. There's a difference between that and something that controls your life and Heavily influences your decisions and the way you behave. Wouldn't you say that.

That's also a difference in the way that racism Affects the human. Human race.

Yeah, and again racism is definitely a sin and Like any other sin of the heart or sin of the mind. It's it's an easy one To commit even unthinkingly and so, you know let's be honest an issue like that into a political people into classes and ethnic groups and and and Creates strife between them and of all places where that should not be happening.

The church's Is the primary one because Christ has broken down all those walls of partition that divided peoples and ethnic groups and and all of that. We're all one in Christ those of us who believe in Christ and and.

To be telling you know an entire your skin you need to repent of this sin that committed by an angry southern white guy as if Everybody who's white is somehow complicit in that. It's just such an egregious smearing of People's intentions in their hearts.

I it makes me sad even among the leadership of organizations that were founded less than 15 years ago Ostensibly to bring people together in unity around the gospel, which was a great goal and now It I don't see how these organizations can ultimately recover their original reason for being from what they've done.

You can't back away from this issue once Once you've become embroiled in it. Yes, and.

To repeat You and I believe that this is a wicked evil satanic sin the sin of racism I mean we have in 1st John Chapter 420 for example, if someone says I love God and hates his brother. He is a liar for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen.

Cannot love God whom he has not seen and right and there is a blemish on the church that there has been a history of racism, but the thing is The racism has existed and still exists no matter what people's skin color is.

My friend who's now in heaven with the Lord for eternity. Dr. Robert J. Cameron. He was a black pastor first in the Reformed Episcopal denomination then in the PCA. Then finally in the OPC where he was when he was called home to the Lord.

He wrote a book Attacking the sin of racism called the last pew on the left a major publisher a publisher if I mentioned the name you would say Oh, yeah, I know that publisher. It's one of the most well-known and lucrative Publishing houses that publishes Christian works, although I don't think it's owned by Christians anymore, but they sent dr Cameron when he sent them his manuscript.

They sent him a rejection letter and they told him that this is the finest unsolicited manuscript we have ever seen. But we do not feel comfortable Publishing a book that criticizes the black church for racism.

He was he was being even-handed in his approach and he one of the reasons he was compelled to write the book as he recognized and it's no. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that Sunday morning at 11 a .m.

As much as we have accomplished in the area of integration in the body of Christ there are still thousands of churches that are all white or all black that don't need to be and dr. Cameron Recognizing that and responding to that wrote this book, but he knows that the black church at large For lack of a better term had the same exact problem as the white church.

So anyway, yeah, you can't it's not politically correct.

To say that these days because the theory is if you are part of an oppressed people group Then you cannot possibly be guilty of Racism and that's just a patently and to my mind obviously unclear untrue claim.

The idea that if you're part of an oppressed people group, you can't be guilty of racism. I know lots of people who are Members of minority themselves who are racist against other minorities.

Right, and of course we have the biblical example that racism is Exposed as an evil wicked sin most In the New Testament in regard to the sin that was committed by Jews the the Jewish Christians who were Demonstrating bigotry against their Gentile brethren including the Apostle Peter initially Had to be rebuked by the Apostle Paul for it and yet the Jews were a persecuted minority an enslaved minority who had been treated horribly and brutally and Cruelly and wickedly for centuries ever since they came from the loins of Abraham, right?

So, I mean, it's it's ridiculous to say that just because you are a persecuted minority. You can't have this sin.

Yeah, well and in fact at in the time of my great-grandparents my ancestors were part of a persecuted minority to one branch of my family had immigrated from Germany and lived in poverty in Arkansas and southern, Oklahoma basically earning a living picking cotton and Being subsistence farmers.

Heck, you know, there are people who your skin and say. You know you enjoy certain privileges and it's true that I do enjoy certain privileges but Privilege isn't. Where do we get the idea that privilege is a sin?

Right and As you were saying before Minorities and those of all skin colors have been clearly seen throughout history as being guilty of the sin of bigotry towards not only people of Different colors like you have hatred of hatred by a black.

Individuals of Asian individuals that take over supermarkets and stores and their communities in the inner city you have. In fact, even if somebody is liberal as Maya Angelo the late Maya Angelo I can still vividly remember an interview with her when she was talking about the the hatred and the bigotry Demonstrated between light-skinned blacks towards darker skin blacks.

She even remembers an all-black church having a hairbrush tied to a string nailed to the door of a church that. And the sign that said if you can't run this through your hair don't bother entering or something like that.

So this is this is this is just a as dr. Cameron the brother. I just mentioned Who's now at the Lord he said racism is a sin problem not a skin problem and that's just blatantly true undeniably. Yeah, well, how did you get dragged into this personally?

I?

Don't even remember It's something by Sabiti Sabiti and we lay I can't remember what piqued my concern, but I remembered a message he gave at One of the original p4g sessions and that in fact actually 2008 and 2004 G meetings Sabiti gave a couple of really good messages about Mission drift, I think was the term he used but the idea was Look if you if you become obsessed with issues like social that and move away from the off message and and you you know you're you're losing it and.

And then in the wake of one of the controversial police shootings I think it was the first black man who was shot after he had robbed a convenience store and I think tried to Take a gun from the police, but a writ on that were were Sketchy and it sounded like maybe he was the victim another victim of and that sparked a whole bunch of protests and across the country riots and complaints against the police and that sort of thing and Sabiti wrote a couple of articles critiquing the police and Claiming that there was institutional racism in in America and I just thought you know He's doing what he said.

We shouldn't do he's. Not only do I think Sabiti? Totally misunderstood that what happened in Ferguson, Missouri and misrepresented it and even after the facts came out I don't feel like he ever really corrected his stance on that.

It shifted his message so that from that time until now pretty much everything Notable that he has said everything that has stirred any kind of response or or the people have noticed has had to do with the issue of racism and accusations against white people in particularly and the police and so tweet basically highlighting what he had said in 2008 and 2010 and Saying I you know, I think I think he's gone off message just like and that's kind of how I got dragged into it people began to to treat me as if as if I were the foil of.

To be the end and you'll be be like that. Weren't you even accused of denying the gospel or something like that?

Yeah, that wasn't the biggest thing. I just.

That wasn't the biggest thing. Seem to me that that would be the biggest thing.

I don't mean it wasn't the biggest thing. I mean that wasn't the most common complaint. The most common accusation against me was That I was just a flat-out racist that to disagree with the beady on that issue was and suddenly I'm having to defend myself for the first time in my life to say look.

I'm not a racist.

Yeah, but by the way, I want to let everybody listening know that if you want Mp3s of two excellent interviews that I conducted with the BD anub we lay in 2009 on his book the decline of African American theology Great book, by the way.

Yes, I will email you those mp3s. They're not on my current website yet because that is from the old iron sharpens iron radio that was broadcasted out of New York and My webmaster Eric Nielsen who has a full-time job just has not gotten around to incorporating all of my old interviews Onto the new site at least visibly where you could look them up by Guest name and so on.

But two excellent Interviews, I can't even remember thinking for one second that I disagreed with anything that the beady was saying and He even Agreed with a caller because I had a call-in show at that time.

As you remember he even agreed with a caller that if Barack Obama was a member of his church This caller said that because of his beliefs on certain moral and social issues that person would be under church discipline Barack Obama would be under church discipline and the BT agreed with that and Then said but the one thing I'm very happy about Barack Obama is that during his presidential candidacy he never pulled.

The race card.

Now, how can you be happy about not pulling the race card when that seems to be going on a very frequently every day now amongst people in this controversy.

Yeah, in fact, I would say the surprising irony to me was that although I disagreed with you know Actually do something to quell the remnants of actually had the opposite effect that. It seemed to me that he fanned the flames of racism more than anybody else.

Who's helped? Yeah, but for me he was speaking about the while he was candidating the first time. I believe whether he whether he was right or wrong about that assessment. He was applauding somebody namely Barack Obama for not pulling the race card and.

Yeah, and in fact. One of the things that's troubling about this whole discussion is you have the thought police going around publicly accusing people who are really innocent of the sin of racism. They're publicly slandering them of being racist by trying to dissect phrases and words.

And catch people in saying something that is is conceived as racist. I'm sure that there's going to be a lot of things that we say today that will be perceived as racism.

One of the difficulties right now is no matter which side of the divide you're on and no matter what you say Somebody's going to accuse you. I mean we've accused. We've accused of identity politics. It's a volatile situation and There's no question that there's a say that's Your racism and yeah, we have reached this dangerous point where no matter what you say.

Yes, and one of the things that I loved that the BD said in my 2009 interview one of my 2009 interviews with him is he in his being critical of the thought police people who immediately attack you if you disagree with Them on their approach to specific issues, especially in this case race or color.

He said you really can't have fertile discussion if you don't have honest discussion. And he brought that up in context of being critical of leaders in the civil rights movement in the 60s and even the secularization of The abolitionist movement centuries prior.

When it went when it changed it transformed from a Christian movement to a more secular one. He laid the blame at the foot or at the feet of The abolitionists who became secular and many of the civil rights heroes of the 60s for the shift in the black church at large from teaching and proclaiming and embracing The gospel of Jesus Christ And substituting it with a social gospel.

And so he said you really can't have fertile discussion if you don't have honest discussion. You have to bring up these things if they are true historically, you can't sweep them under the rug. But if you have any comment on that.

No, I think that's right. I agree.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today is Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you the radio television and literary ministry of John MacArthur. We are discussing racialism gone wild when hypersensitivity and preoccupation over skin color and ethnic differences Eclipses the gospel that unites us all in Christ.

And our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And by the way, another interesting a very interesting phrase that the BD on your wheel a used in one of my 2009 interviews with him over the decline of african-american theology is that he referred to the tyranny of modern-day african-american social and political activism in regard to their attempts to controlling how Racial tension and division is or are addressed.

He actually used the term tyranny because of the way people were being totally shut out If they had some kind of a different idea than was being presented by those Who were constantly using the accusation of racism Against white brothers in Christ for believing basically that that we Should not have collective guilt over sins of Anyone just because of our skin color and in fact, I'm sure you know You were you and I were basically raised not that far apart In the the decades that we were born and so on but That was always the position of the person who Radically opposed racism is that you do not judge a whole group by what some Who belong to that group do like for instance if you happen to be a white person that is living in some Inner city neighborhood and the majority of the crime taking place around you happens to be being performed by black Neighbors.

You should not and it's evil and wicked to say well that means that all black people are Prone to be thieves and murderers and violent criminals. I mean, that's what a lot of white racists have said and continue to say why is it any different if?

Someone were to say that we because we have less melanin content in our skin that we are More more prone to be racist or in fact are by nature racist. What's the difference?

Yeah, well, I don't see a difference and and I mean Admittedly, that is a tendency a sinful tendency I think of all humans that we have to resist and that is the tendency to Judge all people by according to the worst.

I do that with Cardinal fans. I'm a Cubs fan. When I meet a Cardinal fan, I tend to think he's gonna be just as obnoxious as this guy needles me all the time. And it's it's not the case and that's a frivolous example but it is true that you can't you can't impute the worst characteristics of even a even a degraded culture to every individual.

We're supposed to love our neighbor and.

That holds true on both sides, by the way, we have a listener anonymous listener who says And I have to enlarge the font here For what it's worth. The Sabiti was a part on the reformed forum podcast and he chastised the hosts For being too sensitive and Beholden to political correctness when they suggested That they might not have the standing to speak on racial issues Because they were white.

Oh, well, he'll actually the the listener is saying this was Circa 2009. So yeah, well, that's not surprising Judging from what we've just been saying about my interviews with him.

Yeah, yeah, I you know, there was a there was a definite shift in Sabiti's Perspective when he moved to Caribbean for several years a grand Cayman.

Right, and I and actually that's that's where I was interviewing him from. He was on the phone from that church.

Yeah, and. So, you know, I I think perhaps the environment in which he's Ministering has colored his views to some degree in his mind and heart. He he insisted when I Provoked him on that that he had not changed his views at all.

Since he gave that message in 2008 2010 those two messages I don't know how he can say that. It seems to me that what he's saying now is Not only a different message from what he said said then. He's doing the very thing.

He seemed to be warning against now.

Uh, we have heard late lately that our mutual friend. Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega ministries has been severely rebuked and criticized and called racist Because he basically says that Christianity Should be colorblind and That we are not to be Focusing on in any significant way on the skin color of our brethren in Christ When we come together and gather for worship when we come together at the Lord's table It's this is another startling bizarre twist of things where that seems to be a Line right out of the handbook of white segregationists, I don't even understand the root of that That view that we are we are not to be colorblind.

It's as if we are to always be Keeping in the forefront the different things that accompany very often those of a certain skin color and The the way that they worship of the churches there that they're members of and all that as if this is has to be some kind of a primary aspect this divide this multi ethnic multi racial.

Multicultural thing has to be something of primary importance in the way we behave and interact. Otherwise, we are a racist that that's it seems again like racism itself.

Yeah, well, I've read a few articles actually that that Essentially impute the sin of racism to everyone in so you can't don't deny that you're a racist because that's the proof you are.

Oh, no, everyone regardless of how dark their skin. Maybe. Well, it's generally it's generally.

Leveled, you know privileged groups. Okay white privilege and all that, but. But yeah, it's true, I think, you know, even if you're a black person and conservative. You'll be written off as either. You know an uncle Tom cow cowing trying to get the if you want if you don't buy into the identity politics.

You're going to be either branded a racist, right? That I think is what's so difficult about the current thing you hear people talking about we need dialogue. We need to talk to each other and all that, but they really don't want to talk.

They want acquiescence to their views. Because you can't even propose without getting blocked labeled a racist or whatever and the racist label. Is it such a dangerous one because once your reputation is smeared with that you can't get rid of it.

No matter what you do no matter no matter what you've done. It's tiring the reputation. Anybody who disagrees with you and that's why it's so come at you any perspective and this is true I think is any any position that's near and dear to the political left if you disagree with it.

Someone at that end of the political spectrum is going to attribute your dish.

Yeah, and the reason why this is so serious that goes back to One of our original statements right at the beginning of the program You and I and every Christian worth his salt believes that racism is an evil satanic sin right, and it's really a Moronic sin.

It's a a sin. That is if it weren't so serious and Disgusting and deplorable would be laughable the thought that someone would think that they are in any way superior to someone else Just because of their skin color is pretty bizarre and Especially when you are a Christian you have absolutely no excuse for it, right?

Yeah, let me say to that. I think a lot of the evidence that's cited to prove that The evangelical churches is of their predominantly white and churches that are predominantly black in and of itself doesn't prove racism it just.

People who belong to those cultures like to congregate with people in their own cultures. You see that and nobody generally complains about it when the issue is Language rather than the car. Nobody complains that there are certain amount of sense, you know.

Obviously obviously you're not speaking of people who are actually making it a Policy not to invite somebody from the outside into their world.

See, that's the thing that that would be the proof of racism if you if you said, you know. You can't come here because you're not a member of our ethnic group. That's that's pure racism and and honestly, I've been a Christian for 35 years.

I I don't see racism now. I think this was true back in in You know up to probably and including part of my lifetime. That there would have been churches particularly in American South that that nor in the majority.

But that's not true today in my 35 years or 40 years as a wait I was born again in 71. How many years have I been a Christian. Almost 50? I think in that entire time I could probably count on one hand the number of that I've met people who who really are just seething with hatred to be Christians and and and I'm talking about people I've personally met.

I know there are nests of Kennists and other racists on the internet and I've I've corresponded with him. So I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

For those of our listeners, you don't know what a kinnest is. That's someone who believes that you can't even be saved unless you're white. With least the ones that I've interacted with have that, you know.

Yeah, I don't think they all necessarily even go that far, but they they teach that there are inferior races and It's a white supreme applied to it. Sadly. Frequently to reform theology. A lot of the kinnest I've met are Calvinist and Wow, mostly mostly from the South and In fact, there used to be a large kinnest website called little Geneva Run by a guy who was just this is what we're talking about 15 years ago when I started blogging.