Debating With The Babylon Bee's Editor?

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

Yeah. Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

YES! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

That's a joke, pasta. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Proverbs 17, 15. He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the

Lord. What is up, Apologia Radio listeners?

We have an unusually, uh, unusual show today is what

I was trying to say. Um, it's gonna be a good one because I can't even talk and Pastor Jeff is sick at home and he's on Zoom.

Um, so, yeah. But we're all fine here. We're all fine here. How are you? I'm good.

I'll just go ahead since I already did that. What's up, Jeff? You there?

I'm hanging in there. Can you hear me? Yep, we got you. Yeah, I'm trying to love my neighbors by quarantining and staying away from everybody.

I don't feel good, but we have a show to do and the show must go on. The show must go on.

Yeah, we were excited for this show, so Jeff called me and was like, what should I do? I was like, uh, just stay home.

We'll Zoom you in. We'll make it happen. Yeah, I feel like I'm gonna barf. My head hurts. I feel like I have the flu. Do you mind if I come and have a seat next to you and breathe the same air?

No. I really appreciate that. I mean, I wouldn't mind, actually. I appreciate you loving your neighbor. Yes. That's an exemplary use of liberty right there.

It never hurts to love your neighbor. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes it hurts to love your neighbor.

Sometimes it's really painful. That's also true. That's also true. But it's good. So, yeah, we're gonna leap right into the show today, right?

Yeah. So, you want to do sponsors first or you want to get right into it? Well, let's update everybody real fast.

Apologyofstudios .com, go sign up for all access. We have tons of content there, extra content to bless all of our partners in ministry with us.

But we right now are working on a number of new academies that are just gonna truly be a blessing.

We're so thrilled about a couple of these in particular. They're just very, very, very important.

And so that's all at work right now. Go to Apologyofstudios .com. But I also wanted to point everybody to EndAbortionNow .com.

Go there. And, of course, as we always say, sign up with your church to go and save lives.

Abortion is not over in this nation. Not by a long shot. It's legal in every single state, even the state with trigger laws and no abortion bills.

It is still legal to kill your child as a mother in every state in our union. And some states are doing things like ballot measures to legalize the murder of children all the way up to birth and put it into their constitutional amendments.

And so we just have so much work ahead of us. But I just wanted to update everybody. Of course, again, go to EndAbortionNow .com

to get your church signed up to go save lives. But please go also to Give at EndAbortionNow .com.

Donate there to help us to meet our annual goal for this year. We weren't able to do big fundraisers near the year end like we normally like to do, mostly because my life has been crazy and I'm trying to raise two twins, new little girls that we've adopted.

But we need to meet our budget goal for this year for EndAbortionNow. Just saw the team talking this morning, and I'm just thrilled.

We had 18 prospective states with bills of equal protection and abolition happening this session.

Now it looks like we have, what is that, 21, guys? Yep. 21. So it's just more and more.

And with that, we need your help. We've moved beyond the just teaching on this and making sure

Christians are equipped on this and saving lives at the mill. But we've also now moved into the part where we are speaking prophetically to legislators asking them to establish justice for the preborn.

And we've got now – it looks like it's going to be 21 bills of equal protection and abolition happening across the country.

Some of those bills are bills that we have directly met with the legislator. We've got them on board, and we've got the bill written and all that stuff.

And some of them are bills that are just being put in by faithful pastors, Christians, and organizations across the country.

We're giving them backup, and then they're backing us up. So it's definitely a unified effort and a joint effort, but it takes a heck of a lot of work.

It's a lot of travel. I think two years ago, if I'm correct here, I think it was two years ago, total travel away from Arizona, I think it was almost four months of total – that's spaced out throughout the year.

But it was like four months of total travel time in other states, and this year we have more than we ever had before.

And so we need your help. Go to endabortionnow .com to give there and also support.

And it's a perfect segue into what we're going to be doing in the show today, but I'll let you go, Luke, and talk about the people who help us out.

Yeah, so I'll just real quickly – if you're noticing, I'm wearing one of the new

Five Solar shirts. I'm pretty excited about it. Shop .ApologiaStudios .com. You can go there. There's a bunch of new shirts we put up and actually getting ready to put some more up as well.

So I'm excited for those. You can also get your pre -sup – pre -sip, sorry, pre -sip coffee, which we love.

But Ion Layer, got to make sure we mention them. I'm wearing my patch today.

Do you have it on? You got it in? Yeah. So yeah, I mentioned last week – well,

I'll tell the story another time because I know we've got a lot to talk about. But I mentioned last week that it was helping me detox, and I got a long story about that, so I'll save that for next week.

But just want to make sure everyone – actually, tomorrow's the last day for this promotion, so $100 off your first three

Ion Layer kits through tomorrow. So the promo code for that is

Ion, I -O -N, Apologia, A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A. Just wanted to remind everyone of that.

Are you wearing – well, you guys aren't wearing yours. You are or aren't? I'm wearing long sleeves right now.

I'm waiting for my new kit to come in. It should be here next day or two. Yep. I saw that they were shipped out.

So we love them. They're great. And I think – I know there's talk we want to do more with them here shortly or soon.

So yep, we can talk about the others later. Let's do it. Let's do it.

So the title of the show today is Debating with the Babylon Bees Editor.

Joel Berry – we love Joel. I love the Babylon Bee. We know those guys over there.

So grateful for the story and history that God pulled together with the

Babylon Bee and even Elon Musk and buying Twitter. Being instigated by Elon Musk loving the

Babylon Bee and then so upset with how Twitter did the

Babylon Bee that essentially that leads to him buying Twitter, which is turning out to be one of the freest platforms in the world right now.

So it's just really cool how God brought that whole story together. We love the Babylon Bee. I did a show.

I think it was the year COVID hit, 2020 I believe.

I did a show with the Babylon Bee on their podcast, and it was actually on this subject, the subject of abortion.

So the title of the show today is Debating with the Babylon Bee's Editor. It's because – and it's a question mark because we'd love to have this discussion.

This show is coming out of recently. I guess it's been about a week or maybe two weeks.

Abby Johnson, many of you are aware of Abby Johnson. Abby Johnson is behind the

Unplanned movie. Abby Johnson was a director at Planned Parenthood. I believe that was her title, director of Planned Parenthood, and she turned away from abortion, left the industry, and now she is one of the most important voices for the pro -life establishment.

She has been one of the most important voices for the pro -life establishment. If there was a list of five of the most important people talking heads for the pro -life establishment,

Abby Johnson without question would be there. And interestingly, our history with Abby Johnson is of course a history of trying to pray for her and hoping that she gets a little more – she gets more consistent on this issue.

But the history actually was kind of shaky at first where Abby Johnson was really outspoken against abolition and some of the principles around equal protection, the whole issue of women are victims, all that stuff.

So she was there, and she was very much a voice opposed to those who would say they were abolitionists.

And interestingly, there's been moves you've been seeing over the last couple of years where Abby is getting more and more consistent.

And about two weeks ago – and you guys forgive me for being scatterbrained today. I am definitely sick. But about two weeks ago,

Abby Johnson, she shared our film, our little documentary

The Fatal Flaw. She shared The Fatal Flaw, and she said in her –

I can't even help but calling it tweet. What does everyone call it? She shared in her X. I think you could just call it a post.

She posted on X, so you know where to go to find it.

And she posted The Fatal Flaw, and she said specifically that she is not a victim, that she is guilty, that she murdered her children.

And that was a big moment for many people to see. Abby Johnson, who was once so opposed to many of the principles contained within equal protection and abolition, to just come right out and just be fully consistent with what she has always said about abortion, it was very refreshing.

I was so encouraged to see it. And she was encouraging everyone to watch the film The Fatal Flaw.

And I'll just say – to get to the point quickly. So basically Joel Berry, who again is brother in the

Lord, loved Joel. He is the Babylon Bees managing editor, I believe is his title.

He began to make comments, and really in opposition to our film

The Fatal Flaw, he even at one point in one of his posts, he called – he actually used the word sophistry.

Sophistry, in reference to our film The Fatal Flaw, I would love to have

Joel on to explain and defend that sophistry because we stand behind every word of the film

The Fatal Flaw. All of it can be demonstrated. None of it is hyperbole. It is very, very clearly the position of the pro -life establishment that is set in opposition to a

Christian worldview and the gospel itself. And Joel says that he even said at one point he'd like to do a response to it sort of line by line to refute it.

And I would just say this. Joel, let's kill two birds with one stone. Let's just – let's handle it together as brothers.

Let's have the conversation. So this is really an official invite to Joel. Joel, come on Apologia Radio.

Let's just have the discussion as brothers. We respect you. We honor you as a brother. We think you are very seriously, grievously wrong on this, and you think that we are.

So let's have the discussion before an audience so that it can be a blessing to everybody to hear this dialogue.

And so what we're going to do today is – well, you know what? Let me do this.

If you guys don't mind. So Joel comes against what

Abby is saying when she says, I'm guilty of murder. I am guilty. I need forgiveness.

I'm not a victim. And you need to watch the fatal flaw. Joel starts to try to push back against that.

Again, he calls our film sophistry and other things. But Abby Johnson then actually writes a longer post in response to Joel.

And here's what she says, and this is really important, everyone. Listen very, very closely. This is – it's refreshing to see this.

And I think she says some good things here that just nail the issue. She said, Joel, maybe you didn't understand what

I wrote. I was not a victim. I knowingly and willingly killed my child, me.

I'm talking about me. Do you notice how I didn't write no woman is ever a victim?

There's a reason for that. Sometimes, on occasion, women are truly victims of abortions.

If they are truly a victim, then they wouldn't be guilty of their victim status. Also, you can absolutely be a victim of domestic violence, rape, and many other things.

But being a victim of these horrific acts doesn't mean you aren't culpable for willingly and knowingly murdering a child in your womb.

Example, let's say I'm being abused by my husband, and I decide to kill my 4 -year -old. If my defense is, well,

I was really upset, and my husband kept beating me, and I was super stressed, I just couldn't handle being a mom anymore, so I killed my 4 -year -old.

I would lose my case. Why? Because the child who was killed was innocent. He was the only victim of abortion.

Was I a victim? Yes, of domestic violence. Of other forms of abuse, possibly. But of abortion, no.

Now, this is really interesting. Hey, you know what? It just hit me. It literally just hit me as I'm reading what

Abby said there. Do you guys know that famous case right now with that girl who was released?

Oh, she was released. She had her mom killed. Do you guys know what

I'm talking about? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about. Her mom was like a mommy dearest. There's a medical term where she was making up sicknesses and illnesses.

Yeah, she was making - There was a show made out of it, right? Gypsy Rose.

Yeah, that's it. There you go. Okay, so this is really interesting in terms of this discussion.

Gypsy Rose, that story is horrible. I actually watched the documentary on it recently because my kids were talking about it.

So Gypsy Rose was abused by her mother in ways that make you want to strangle her mother.

I mean the stuff that she did to her daughter was horrendous and making her sick, making her think she couldn't walk, making her think.

It was just abuse upon abuse upon abuse. It was really just torture.

And it ends up that Gypsy Rose gets into a relationship as she's older with a guy, and this guy is a certifiable nutter.

And he ends up actually murdering Gypsy Rose's mom, stabbing her to death.

But Gypsy Rose was involved in the murder. And look, when you first hear the story of Gypsy Rose, you have to say absolutely undeniably that girl was a victim.

This mother deserved to just – she deserved to be buried under the jail sort of thing.

But then you get to the end of the story where Gypsy Rose is involved in the murder of her mother, and people have to sort of like think through those things.

It's like, yes, she was a victim, but did that give her a right to murder her mother?

And the answer is no. And it's just – it's a fascinating story.

Gypsy Rose was recently let out of jail. She served I think 10 years in jail.

But see, even the courts recognize, yes, Gypsy, you were a victim.

You were a victim of your mother. She made you think you were sick. She kept you sick and she abused you.

But that doesn't give you the right to plot a murder where a man is going to stab your mother to death.

You're guilty of that, and Gypsy Rose admits to that. She's like, yeah, I was abused and I was a victim, but I murdered my mother.

I was a part of murdering my mother, and I'm guilty of that. So what's interesting here is there's two points here.

One, on that point, are there women who are victims of abortion? We've said that all along.

We've said that all along that there are women who are truly victims in the abortion industry.

And generally what we mean is we're talking about women who are in the sex trafficking industry, people who are abused by pimps, people who are being coerced and threatened to kill their child.

You can talk about a victim narrative in that sense. But the number of women who are in that category of truly victims of the issue of abortion is so infinitesimally small and the large number of abortions, let's be honest, abortions, what we're talking about are abortions at will, knowingly, willingly, with malice before thoughts.

And that's not victim. And so what we have to address here, let's just get to what we have to address here, is this issue of equal protection being the only thing that can actually establish justice and the only thing that can protect women from being victimized in abortion.

And what I mean by that is actually when you spin the victim narrative and you protect abortion for the mother and you say that she's not guilty and actually she must never be punished and she must be protected legally.

When you spin that narrative and you put to death equal protection, what that really means is that you are never going to be able to stop women from being victimized by a man or a pimp by way of coercion and victimization because it is actually the opposition of equal protection that is protecting coercers.

It is protecting the pimps. Right. So when – and we've said this often.

When the pro -life establishment opposes all of our bills of equal protection and they talk about some women are coerced into abortion, we say yes, that's why we need this equal protection because it is actually your thing where you say women are never guilty.

There's never any punishment for this. It is your thing that is allowing for the coercer to get away with it because there's no punishment because there's no equal protection.

If you had equal protection, it would be the safeguard against those who are being coerced into abortion because equal protection bills would say that the child in the womb from the moment of fertilization is to be given equal protection, meaning if someone is coercing someone threatening them to kill their child via abortion, then that makes the woman then the victim and the baby the victim and the coercer the perpetrator and they will be found guilty.

So actually this issue of is she a victim and should she be protected is the fatal flaw.

It's a central issue, and I think that Joel should come on and discuss it with us. I think a great way to summarize this too –

I love how you wrapped it up in a pretty little bow, but maybe if I could add my two cents to this too.

Add another bow. Are women victims of abortion? They may be, but they're not victims because they had an abortion.

That's not what makes them a victim of anything, right? They're not victims because they killed their child.

I think we just have to learn to think through this in proper categories, and we need to understand that, as you said, the only way to stop the hand of the oppressor is to treat the child like a human.

That's the only way to stop those who would abuse and coerce and oppress women to afford that woman the level of dignity and protection that she needs for this.

The only way to do that is to treat the baby like what we say they are, a human being. Yeah, that's right.

It's kind of ironic. I don't know if you guys saw the video I sent over today that Babylon Bee just did where they were making fun of Planned Parenthood, but it was perfect.

Did you see it? Yeah. They're clearly talking about the baby being human, and Planned Parenthood wanted to dehumanize it by calling it a fetus and clump of cells and not calling it murder.

They nailed that video, and so why is there inconsistency then for Joel?

That's the question we have. Why aren't you then being consistent in the way you treat it in the laws?

I wouldn't want to speak for Joel necessarily, but I've heard him publicly present his position on this, and he does believe that due to the unique nature of pregnancy and abortion and the weakness of the woman, given

God's created order, that man's more responsible, yada, yada, yada, that we should have in our legal system for mothers a certain class of protected category for her to get an abortion.

This is how he expresses his position. For the sake of the safety of the woman, we should have this special carve -out over here.

And that's what the fatal flaw is all about. That's why we did the documentary, is because women are not victims because they had an abortion.

The problem is they are seen that way, treated that way by our pro -life laws, and they are given just a blanket immunity.

That's what they're given automatically. There's no shot of due process. There's no chance of examining things on a case -by -case basis because we've decided before we even get to the examination or get to the case that this person is innocent.

And that's what we mean when we talk about partiality, unequal weights and measures, acquitting the guilty, which are all things that our pro -life laws currently do.

That's what the fatal flaw addresses because that is the biggest issue. That's this gaping hole that we're seeking to close up, really.

And this whole discussion is that the laws against prenatal homicide are not being applied equally. There's one person that is a protected class of killer, and that might not be how

Joel would express his argument, but it's the same thing, just said in a different way.

Yeah, and when Joel uses the word sophistry, all due respect, that's sophistry.

To say that the child in the womb is in the image of God, that this is murder, that all human life should be protected, all human life is valuable.

Joel is opposed to abortion without question, but to hold to those biblical foundations and then to leap away from those to then find a way to express a form of protection for a certain class of killer.

And that's – well, that's – we're just engaging in sophistry at that point. And so that's what

I would challenge. I would say let's find the sophistry. Let's find out who's actually saying what they mean and meaning what they say because in the film

The Fatal Flaw, what we said essentially was that abortion is legal in every state across our union.

And one of the main reasons for that is that the pro -life establishment has a doctrine where they believe that the woman should be able to kill her child with impunity.

That means without penalty or without punishment and immunity. Now, there's no sophistry taking place there.

There's no hyperbole. They really do. Those are facts. Those are facts. They really do believe that.

Joel, with all due respect, you cannot dispute that fact. We can give you document upon document upon document.

We can show you them sitting down next to me in legislatures arguing against a bill to abolish abortion because it would mean that she'd be seen as guilty and punishable.

They want women to be protected and to have legal immunity.

We can show you the bills across the country from pro -life lobbyists and pro -life laws where they literally will criminalize an aspect of abortion or shut down the practice of it in that state.

But they will actually add a line of protection for the woman. These laws shall not pertain to the woman who does it.

So when we say in The Fatal Flaw that this is a doctrinal issue and that it is in opposition to the

Christian worldview and all of Christian history, that's not exaggeration. That's not sophistry.

That's a demonstrable fact in Christian history and Christian doctrine, and it is not hyperbole or sophistry in any way to say that the pro -life establishment wants two things.

I can demonstrate this without question. They want two things. Impunity, that's no punishment for the woman, and immunity, legal protection to do it without prosecution.

We can demonstrate that without question, and everything inside The Fatal Flaw can be demonstrated and I think is demonstrated actually in the documentary itself.

So what we wanted to do is play some clips of The Fatal Flaw and try to interact with it a bit, pretending for a moment that Joel was with us on this show.

We hope he's going to join us on another show, but we wanted to go through some of The Fatal Flaw with you guys to really talk about this core issue.

And can I just say this before we do it? This is – why are we passionate about having this discussion?

Let me tell you why I'm passionate about it and why we feel the weight of it. And Joel, if you're listening to this, or when you listen to this,

I really hope you'll take this to heart. Why are we so passionate about this discussion? Because –

I'll give you one example. When we were in Louisiana, we had the yes votes from all the legislators we needed in the state of Louisiana.

They saw the bill. They said that is what we believe. We're doing that. And we expected this may be the first state where we get a bill of equal protection and abolition in.

We have all yeses, all that we need. It's going to happen. We couldn't believe our ears and our eyes.

This is really happening right now. And the next thing you know, the establishment comes in via Mike Johnson, Louisiana Right to Life, National Right to Life, and that list of organizations.

And they killed the bill that would protect all babies in the state of Louisiana.

They killed it. They ended it. And one of the – well, I'll tell you what Mike Johnson has said.

He opposed the bill, and he told everyone to kill the bill that he told to kill the bill because it would mean that women who murder their children in the womb would be guilty and would be facing some form of punishment.

And he said that's not what we believe in the pro -life movement. And that's why we're so passionate about this because we've got 21 now, 21 states of bills of equal protection.

And every single state, those bills are going to die if we don't, as the

Christian church, overcome this heretical doctrinal position, this inconsistent position.

If we don't overcome it, every state will be opposed by the pro -life establishment.

It is actually – I would argue this, and I'm not accusing Joel here, but it is

Joel's position of protecting women to kill their children, and that's exactly what it's doing.

When you argue against equal protection, it is exactly Joel's position that is the primary reason that we can't overcome in these legislatures.

It is because of Joel and people like Joel arguing against the equal protection of all humans in the womb.

Yeah, and I was going to say quickly before we get into fatal flaw. I mean we witnessed that happen here in Arizona where it was criminalized for the woman.

The mother was guilty. It's been that way since the 70s. And Kathy Herita in the Center for Arizona Policy, the pro -life establishment came in and struck that down and legalized it for the mother.

That's a really important point because a lot of – Can you just highlight that, Luke, and talk about the fact that – or Zach – there were two bills, two pieces of legislation and laws, two laws in Arizona.

One was for the abortionist. It's a crime. One's for the mother. It's a crime. Right. Express to everybody once again, what did

Kathy Herita erase? Well, I think it's important for people to know because we hear that objection a lot.

It's like, well, it's never been a crime for a mother to do this. It's never been recognized as such.

It's just not true. We have an example in our state code that was there.

Yeah. And in opposition to our position, which is that pre -born children in the womb should have the same protections that everybody else enjoys,

Kathy Herita opposed that. The Center for Arizona Policy opposed our bill. We could have ended it in Arizona.

Could have ended it. And she exchanged our bill for her bill, which was a bill of – a piecemeal measure that nibbles around the edges, that doesn't save children, that is nothing more than political theater.

Instead, they opted to have stricken from the record the law that would have held the mother accountable.

Yeah. Right? And albeit that the penalty was something like a two - to five -year prison sentence or even less than that maybe.

It was something. Yeah. It was penalized. It wasn't the same as how we treat the homicide of born people, but it was still there.

It was against the law, even for the mother to do it. And so to say that that's never been the case is just untrue.

And it's so important that we know that it was there. Yeah. It actually was there.

It's not just theory or hearsay. Like, we're not telling wild tales or stories about this.

It was on the books. It was there, and now it's gone for a reason. Yeah. And then the other thing

I was going to say is I have this tweet, this ex, this post.

This post. Exed from Joel where we were talking about in regards to the final flaw.

He said, this is a debate worth having, but we should have it honestly. This ain't it. And I'm like, brother, like, one, accusing us of being dishonest is –

Yeah, and misleading people through fallacious argumentation. I mean, that's sophistry. So the accusation is that you are misleading people.

Yeah, and it's like, look, we have a very, very high view of God's law and justice, and we would not make any claims if we did not have more than enough witness to and evidence to those claims to back up and support those claims.

So we're literally just presenting the facts. Like, that's what's happening. That's what this film is.

We're not making up some storyline and trying to promote that.

Like, this is literally just the facts that we've put out for everyone to see on YouTube.

Well, let's just give you three that we've already run through here. We didn't mention one, but it is in The Fatal Flaw.

One, in the film Fatal Flaw, you see us in Missouri, and I'm sitting down before the legislature with Bradley Pierce and advocating for our bill for equal protection and abolition, and there's only two other people that oppose the bill, and it was the pro -life organizations in Missouri.

And they both specifically say that they are opposing the bill of equal protection because it would mean that women would face penalties for abortion.

Yeah, exactly. That really happened. That really happened. That really happened.

It's in the film. You can see it yourself. There's no sophistry there. There's no dishonesty there. Also in the film is what played out in Louisiana, and you see in the film, you see it with their own words.

There's no sophistry, no hyperbole. There's no misleading. It's from their own mouths.

They're testifying against themselves, that it would mean that the woman we've seen is guilty. They think she's a victim.

They don't think women should ever be seen as guilty for murdering their children in the womb. There's two points of contact.

The third point of contact is what we already brought up just now. In the state of Arizona, it was the pro -life establishment through Kathy Herron that killed our bill of abolition, and it was explicitly, she said explicitly, we believe mother and baby are equally victims.

They're both victims in abortion. And so what she did was, and you guys have already heard it, but she killed the bill of abolition because the woman is not guilty, and then she goes on to put a bill in where she actually strikes the current law in Arizona that criminalizes the mother for murdering her child.

Kathy Herron knew what she was doing there. She knows her worldview. She knows that she believes the abortionist is guilty, so she kept the

Arizona state law that says the abortionist is guilty. She struck the Arizona state law that says the mother is guilty for willingly killing her child in the womb.

There's no sophistry here. There's no exaggeration. It's just the facts.

That is the position, and I would actually say the sophistry is on the other side of this debate where you are a

Christian. You hold to the word of God. You say it's in the image of God. You say it is worthy of equal protection, and then you find some way to actually, with words, transform the discussion in such a way that the woman who willingly kills her child is not actually guilty under God's law.

I would say that's sophistry, and I think I can demonstrate it in a face -to -face conversation.

So you should join us, Joel. Yeah, absolutely. So I know we had some clips we were going to play from that.

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Any schooling that isn't government sanctioned. It's not going to happen, but she's trying. Point being, if you're a homeschooling parent and you're in Arizona, now is the time to sign up with Heritage Defense.

You can go to heritagedefense .org and put APOLOGY in the coupon code and get your first month free on that.

You need to have them on your side, especially with what we're up against. Anyways, moving on.

Do you want me to play a clip, Jeff, or what do you want? Yeah, actually, let's do this. That first clip,

Luke. Let's do that first clip because it's important because it lays the foundation.

And again, Joel claims sophistry and dishonesty. And there's accusations there of manipulation.

Let's hear it from the horse's mouth. All right? And that's his first clip there where Brian is interacting with the head of the…

My brain is not working right now. This is the Louisiana SBC? Yes, SBC in Anaheim.

Oh, so yeah, this is a national… Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's go ahead and play that first clip and we'll interact with it.

Okay. Just tell me when you want me to stop it. Okay. Here we go. The first time

I spoke to Dr. Brent Leatherwood was at the Southern Baptist Convention when we met in Anaheim, California.

And I asked Dr. Leatherwood if it really was his position that the mother who willfully chooses to kill her own child, not under coercion, not under duress, but a mother who just chooses to kill her child, is she really not guilty before God and should she really not face any consequences under the law?

Here's the reality. You're not going to get me to say that I want to throw mothers behind bars.

That's not the view of this entity. That is not the view of this convention. It is not the view of the pro -life movement.

You see, if he would have finished the statement, Brent Leatherwood doesn't want to lock up women who murder their children in the womb.

The second time I talked to Brent Leatherwood was at the… Okay. Okay, so let's just look at a dictionary definition of sophistry here for a second.

It says sophistry definition from Oxford. It says the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

And that's one thing that I really emphasized to Brian when I was – because I was there when

Brian asked that question. It's one thing I emphasized is did you notice that the way that they always speak about this is with emotional appeals and it's manipulative.

And I said – so he goes up and he says you're not going to get me to say that I want to throw mothers behind bars.

But what actually is the conversation we're having right now? We're talking about mothers who willfully and intentionally kill their children in their wombs.

So – and I said that to Brian. I said he didn't finish the statement. The statement and dispute is should mothers who willfully kill their children in the womb be punished or go behind bars, quote -unquote behind bars?

That's really what needs to be asked. But when he says you're not going to get me to say I want to throw mothers behind bars, everyone thinks of their mama.

And they go, I don't want mama to go to jail. Everyone thinks of their mama. They go, I don't want mom to go to jail.

I mean my wife, she's a mother. I don't want to get thrown behind bars. That is sophistry. That is manipulation of the debates, and that's what

Leatherwood did. And so there you have it though. No sophistry, no hyperbole, no exaggeration, no manipulation.

These are the words coming from the platform at the SBC members meeting from Brent Leatherwood.

And they do not believe that a woman should be seen as guilty or ever culpable for murdering her child in the womb.

Which led to the next question that Brian was able to ask at the next members meeting.

Go ahead and play that part. Okay. And I was just going to say quickly, I think the thing, just watching this again, what's more shocking to me

I think than Leatherwood's comments is the applause, the roar from the audience you get.

This is at the national SBC conference, and you were there. There was a lot of Southern Baptist pastors there, and they were cheering in agreement.

That's what's more shocking to me. I know Zach and I, we went to that one turning point thing where we were like, whoa.

We were up against. Yeah, we were definitely the minority position. Well, I will say that yes, 100 %

Luke, you're right. It was very discouraging, disheartening to see everyone applaud.

But I will tell you, on the other side of that, it was also encouraging to see the large number of men and women who were astonished by the applause.

So I would say there was definitely some encouraging notes there of people doing what we're doing, going, why are you applauding at that?

And that was there too. So and by the way, it should be noted that Brent Leatherwood doesn't seem to know what his own denomination voted on.

So when he says when he says it's not the view of this convention, it's not the view of the pro -life movement.

Actually, it is a convention. Yes. Yeah. You're absolutely wrong. The members voted.

I was there for the vote the year before. We're in Tennessee, in Tennessee.

I was there for the votes where they voted for abolition as the SBC's official position and equal protection.

So Brent Leatherwood is just simply wrong. And that led to Brian, Pastor Brian, asking the next question at the next

SBC meeting. OK, here we go. Following Southern Baptist Convention in New Orleans, which is just right down the road from where I pastor my church in Louisiana.

And since Dr. Leatherwood would not answer my first question on whether or not the woman who murders her child by abortion is guilty before God and under the law.

I decided to ask him another question. OK, you've already told me that you don't believe women who kill their children in the womb should face any consequences under the law.

How about that same child after being born? Should a mother who kills her newborn child face any consequences under the law?

Brian, thank you for that question. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to once again restate where we are.

And I know that this is something that's important to Louisianans in particular, Louisiana Baptists in particular. We have said all along that abortion is murder.

And we will never waver from that. Scripture mandates it. At the same time,

I hope, Brother Brian, I hope that you took something away from the words

I just shared with you. Because in that dynamic, there is a preborn child that's vulnerable.

And there's a mother that is vulnerable, too. Dr. Leatherwood did not answer my question at all.

He totally avoided it. And he decided to give a pro -life stump speech. He decided to talk about how pro -life he was and all these other things, rather than answer whether or not the woman should be criminalized for killing her born child, her newborn or toddler.

He's not yet answered that question. There you go. You just repeated the party line, basically.

Exactly. Exactly. And if we're going to use words like sophistry, I can't –

I cannot help but honestly and with my whole heart appeal to that word, sophistry, when listening to Leatherwood there.

Leatherwood's asked a direct question. He knows that he does not have a coherent way with his position to answer it.

No way out of that one. He knows it. That's why he didn't even attempt to answer it. Now, OK, so you don't believe that a woman who willfully takes a life for a child in the womb should ever be seen as guilty.

She's not guilty. She's a victim. He would say, right. OK. So how about if the woman kills her born child?

The baby's out now and she willfully and intentionally kills that child. Well, if Leatherwood says yes, if he says yes, she should be penalized, well then he is admitting to the fact that he doesn't believe that the child in the womb is worthy of equal protection or that it is as human as the child who comes out.

And so what does he do? He manipulates and he goes to the – pulling on emotional heartstrings to manipulate the conversation to distract from the main issue, which he cannot answer.

And I would actually – I would argue and I'd be curious to see that I don't think with Joel's position he could provide a coherent answer there either, not without sophistry, not without inconsistency because I would say that I think

Joel, if he was being consistent, would say, well, yeah, if she kills her born child, she should absolutely be penalized. But he's arguing somehow for protection for this class if they do it in the womb.

I'd like to see Joel answer that. And again, we're looking forward to having them on the show so we can have an answer to that question.

But in The Fatal Flaw, we provide evidence from their own lips.

This is the official position of the pro -life establishment, impunity and immunity.

She should never be punished for murdering her child in the womb, and she should be protected against any penalty in the law, and they do that in their legislative moves.

But also in the film, we play some clips so you can view it with your own eyes of what took place in Louisiana, Missouri.

Luke, can you go ahead and play that fourth clip I sent you? That will bring everyone into the

Louisiana one, and you'll be able to hear Louisiana Right to Life saying this as well.

I'd like to thank the committee and the chairman for hearing this bill. I know this is not an easy bill to hear. I know it's lots of controversy, lots of heart -wrenching decisions.

You know, I think the pro -life movement would see, we've been waiting 50 years to get to this point.

Well, Sharice and Katie, House Bill 813 is also called the Abolition of Abortion in Louisiana Act of 2022.

What it would do is redefine a person to include fetuses. If it became law in Louisiana, it would extend homicide laws to fetuses as well.

Many Christians don't understand that we had a historic moment in the state of Louisiana, a bill of equal protection that went into the state of Louisiana to protect all human life from the moment of fertilization equally.

It's a very simple bill, equal protection for all humans from fertilization. This bill actually made it to the hearing.

This bill passed the hearing overwhelmingly. The House Criminal Justice Committee approved

McCormick's Bill 7 -2 last Wednesday. It now heads to the House floor

Thursday for debate. If the bill passes the House Thursday, it will go to the Senate for a vote and then to Governor John Bel Edwards' desk.

He historically takes a pro -life stance, but he has not said whether he would veto this bill or not.

The week before the actual votes, we had the legislators in Louisiana looking at the bill saying, well, we're pro -life, this is the most pro -life bill we've ever seen, it's consistent, of course we'll pass it.

And then that week, the establishment came in. Multiple prominent pro -life groups have come out against the bill, including

Louisiana Right to Life. Angie Thomas does not support abortions, but she doesn't believe women who have them should be treated as criminals.

We have a longstanding policy of protecting both mothers and children.

We want to love them both. Hopefully we can make sure that women don't have to choose abortion and that they can be supported.

It's not consistent with our longstanding policy that we want to hold accountable the abortion facility and those performing abortion, not that abortion -vulnerable women, who we believe in many ways is a victim of legal abortion in America today.

It passed the committee vote, it was on its way to the floor for a vote, and what happened? The pro -life organizations that we trust to represent us at a national level, they sent a letter, a coordinated effort, a strategic front that said, don't you dare pass this bill.

This is not what the pro -life movement has ever been about. And they explicitly mentioned in the letter, why?

Because they have never seen a mother who willfully and intentionally kills her own pre -born child as anything more than a victim.

They opposed it. They stood against us. And so the reason that abortion remains legal in the state of Louisiana?

Pro -life establishment. What they've done is protect the woman who kills her child.

All right. So obviously that's, especially when you were in the thick of it and taking time away from family and your church and sacrificing and sleeplessness and travel and all the rest.

It's hard to watch that. You were actually there. Yeah, I was there in the midst of it.

And I was there when they were going behind closed doors to talk to legislators out of passing.

And I was I was in front of legislators who were so confused. They were so confused.

I had legislators, several of them literally in tears, crying in front of me saying,

Pastor Jeff, I don't understand what's going on here. This is the bill that they say that they want to get to.

It's the bill that all human life starts with fertilization. Every human life is equal. It deserves equal protection because now they're telling me that I should not pass this bill.

And I'm watching the bill go from it's going to pass to we're losing all the legislators and is because Mike Johnson killing the bill.

It is because Louisiana right to life, national right to life. So it's hard to watch that. But I want to ask the question to Joel.

And I mean this with all due respect to him as a brother. Where's the lie? Yeah. Where's the where's the lie?

Yeah. Where's the lie? Where's the sophistry? I'd like to hear you come on and defend it.

That sophistry has been done here or that there's somehow some sort of misleading. We're playing the actual quotes, the video footage of the people themselves that oppose this bill.

They do not believe that she is guilty. They do not believe that she should ever be punished for murdering her child in the womb.

That is their position. And they absolutely did kill the bill of equal protection in the state of Louisiana.

They killed it. They oppose it. They will continue to oppose it until they have a worldview change.

And I would argue that this to Joel, I would say, Joel, we're not doing we're not helping anything by maintaining a heretical doctrinal position.

You can call it emotionalism, but don't call it consistent. Call it emotionalism, but don't call it

Christianity. When you know, when we talk to women as pastors and it's just the average average

Christian is talking to a woman who's killed a child via abortion. We are encouraging her to repent of that sin, to turn to Christ, to be forgiven.

That's what we want for all women who willfully take their child, their child's life in the womb. But we are telling them there's forgiveness in Christ.

They have to turn from it because it is a sin. And of course, as a sin of murder, it's also it should be seen as a crime.

That's the Christian position when we start engaging in sophistry, manipulation and transforming the argument from its murder, its human life.

It's the image of God transforming it then to provide a protected class of killers. That's deceptive.

That is sophistry. And that is inconsistent. And again, the reason we're so passionate about this,

Joel, if you do get to see this is because we are putting these bills of equal protection in.

And Joel, people with your position are the ones that are stopping them. And they will continue to stop them because your position is actually, actually a heretical position in terms of church history.

What Christians have always said about this, you hold to a heretical position when you want to say that she actually is not guilty and shouldn't be punished for it.

Christian church does not believe that the Bible does not teach that. And I think we need to get over it.

Like I said, call it emotionalism, but don't call it Christianity. Yeah, I was just thinking, too, as I was watching this,

I mean, we have a unique position, Jeff, you and I. And just because we can argue for this as pastors, but we're also viewing it from a legislative angle, you know, legally.

And, you know, you just said there's obviously there's sins and there's crimes and some sins are crimes, but not always.

Right. And, you know, so we're talking about the sin of murder. And, you know, from the legislative angle, you know, we're just talking about legalized morality.

Right. So ultimately, it's coming back to the what's what's biblical morality and what's truth. And and I'm just sitting here watching this and I'm just I just I don't think we've ever talked about this from this this perspective.

But like Danny McCormick is a hero. Right. He's he was incredibly brave, stood there and tried to defend the lives of his pre -born neighbors.

And he got just absolutely betrayed. Yeah. Stabbed in the back by those claiming the name of Christ.

Yeah. Those on his side, those on his side that are Christians that love Jesus, coerced other

Christians to betray him. And like from a pastoral perspective, like that's just sinful.

Like there's people that just even in the way this was handled, like there's a lot of repenting that needs to be done.

Yeah. Just for the way they treated their brother in Christ and intentionally set him up to embarrass him on the on the floor of the

Louisiana House. Yeah. For the sake of what? Like political right. Yeah, exactly. Self -exaltation.

Exactly. And it was coercion from the top down. And it's just that when I see stuff like that, it's just like like people don't understand that.

Like Joel Berry, with all respect, he doesn't understand. He wasn't part of this. He didn't see what took place in the level of betrayal and sin that actually went into shutting our bill down.

So I don't know. I was just thinking that as I was watching this. I just say one thing. I mean, you mentioned the truth.

Like what is the truth? Unfortunately, this is the sad truth that everyone has to stare down the barrel of.

And that is that Planned Parenthood, the abortion industry and the pro -life establishment, that is the pro -life organizations, its leaders.

Right. All of the people implementing and trying to apply policy at a massive level. They have the same position.

The identical position is that mothers should be legally allowed to commit homicide against their own children up to the moment of birth.

That's the position. And, you know, we have the ballot referendums and all these things going on at the state level.

And one of the big defenses that you hear our side, conservative side, being coached in is these people want to legalize abortion up to birth.

These people want to legalize abortion up to birth. We got to stop them. And it's like, well, hold on a second and examine the feet of your own position.

What's your position? Do you believe that it should be legal for a mother to do this up to the moment of birth?

Well, if so, Planned Parenthood wants their argument back. So you need to give it to them and you need to get biblical real quick if we're going to stem the tide in our state.

Right. That's right. That's absolutely correct. And, you know, this

I know this discussion becomes it's you get weary with this discussion.

I wish that we weren't even doing this. There were so many other ministries that I would be so excited to be putting my hand to.

And I'd love to just spend all my time out doing evangelism on the street. But we're talking about children who are dying here.

There are real lives at stake here. And this is such a vitally important conversation because we titled or I titled the film

The Fatal Flaw because it is thus the central issue right now.

It is exactly what you said, Zach. It is exactly what you said.

It is that actually both sides, the pro -life establishment and the pro -choice establishment, they hold to the same principled position.

And that is that a woman should be able to do this with impunity and immunity. Now, on the one side, they're doing it because they want to kill children.

On the other side, they're doing it because of emotionalism. Yeah. Not because of Christianity, not because of biblical worldview.

In the name of compassion or protecting the woman or, you know, this is the right political strategy because this is what will get things done and help our side, et cetera, et cetera.

That's right. And here's the thing I'm going to say. Look, as a Christian, all of us, I think, have to just really come to terms with this. We need to call women guilty and not victims so that they can have

Christ. Yeah. So that we can protect them also. Yes. So that's the second point.

So the first point is we need to call them guilty and tell them that they're guilty of murdering their child so that they can have

Christ and forgiveness. If we remove the gospel from them, if we tell them they're not guilty, and it's one of the things

I'd love to talk to Joel about this, Joel, about this in terms of the victim thing and victims still need forgiveness.

No, I'm sorry. That is unbiblical. That is against the law of God. If somebody is victimized in a crime, in a particular category, if a perpetrator does something and this person is a victim, they have nothing to ask for forgiveness for in the crime.

It's very important. So when you say when you say things like, well, sometimes you can be a victim, still need to ask for forgiveness, not for the incident you were victimized in, that you are a victim.

And by that, it means that you share no guilt, no weight of guilt. But if we say that she is a victim, then she has nothing to repent of.

She has nothing to turn to Christ for, and she needs forgiveness. But the second thing is, and it's just what you just said there,

Zach, is if we don't afford equal protection, then we are never going to actually protect the real victim woman who never wanted to kill her child in the first place.

She's desperately trying to avoid killing her child, and she's got a gun to her back or something or a knife to her throat or her family is being threatened.

If she doesn't kill this child or have the abortion, then she's going to lose her life. That's coercion. And what's keeping that coercion alive today is the pro -life establishment's opposition to equal protection.

Because as of right now, these pimps, these evil men can coerce women into having abortions, and they can do it with impunity because there's no equal protection for the child.

And so right now, every woman being coerced and victimized in abortion, that very small number, every woman is now not able to receive protection because of the pro -life establishment's position against equal protection.

And unfortunately, and I mean this with all due respect, Joel's position of trying to prop up this victim narrative and say that we should have a protected class of killers as long as it's in the womb.

Right. That's a big point. We just have to underscore it. Like, if you want to protect women, if you really want to protect them and keep them safe, then we need to be lawful and we need to apply the laws equally if we really want to protect them.

Yes. So I think we're good on the show for today. Again, I'd like to extend a very respectful and loving invitation to Joel to join us on an episode of Apology Radio.

You'll be loved and treated with respect on the show. I think you know that, brother. And we can get to – we can go to the mat on some of these things.

I think it's vitally important. And again, to underscore why it's so important is that now we were told this morning with our teams that are working together across the country on this issue that we've got probably now 21 states of bills of equal protection.

And again, in every one of these states, we can win if the church actually stands on the word of God and the gospel, and we can win, and we can be consistent, and we will not win.

And they will be overcome in every single state by the organizations that say that they stand for life because of this fatal flaw, and that is that she is a victim.

She must be protected, impunity and immunity for the woman. That is the fatal flaw.

That's what's keeping it alive across the country. But I want to ask everybody to please pray for us, and please do go to EndAbortionNow .com

to give financially. We need financial support and financial help. Our budget compared to these massive organizations is like pennies on the dollar, but God does amazing things through a church like ours with a smaller budget in comparison.

Look, 21 states, we're working with other organizations, and some of these are our bills as well.

That's a big deal with a budget our size, but we do need help. I mean, we need a lot of help.

It costs a tremendous amount of money to pull this off in these states, and to get the teams there, to get to the churches, to organize with the churches, it's just a tremendous thing.

But you see where God is getting us, and we're getting very, very close, so please give there.

I'll sign off for now, and I'll catch you guys next week. Thanks, dude. I was just going to say, just to give a perspective, you're talking about the numbers financially.

We have a man we're hoping will run the bill here in Arizona.

The liberal pro -choice industry is wanting to spend two -thirds of our entire budget for the year in that district, just one district.

And it's two -thirds of the budget we have for 21 states, right?

So to give people an understanding of the perspective of what we're talking about, how much this stuff costs, we're working with pennies, like Pastor Jeff said.

Well, that's all I got. We'll be back next week. I don't know what we'll be talking about.

Oh, wait! No, we got your boy on next week, right? Is next week the 25th?

Yeah, you're right. Do you want to talk about that? It's a surprise. Oh, it's a surprise. It should be a surprise,

I think. You're going to want to turn in. Tune in next week.

We have a special guest. Thank you,

Little Zeezers. It's good to be here, as always. And we'll see you next week. Luke the