Fred Phelps

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Scheduling Notes and Upcoming Debate on Baptism

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line. Just a quick announcement. Two quick Announcements right off the top before I forget them as I probably will if I don't do them right now because I get sidetracked and.

It happens. Did you know that in in less than six weeks, I'll be closer to 50 than to 40. Yeah, I know you've been there for a while so I Know and you still like running, right? Yeah, well we haven't really told too many people out there about chasing criminals around property.

I.

Yes, we won't go into that today anyway. Now see I told you I'd get sidetracked now I gotta remember what I was talking about in an hour now that you all have played with your clocks. You know this clock thing just drives me nuts.

I have so many of these atomic clocks and Half of them do not have little button. You can press the kills daylight savings time. So you got to sit there and here I am Phoenix playing with clocks because they pick up the new time thing and they're stuck on daylight savings time and they Change an hour and you're wondering what time it is as you're wandering around the house going well, which one's right?

I don't know. You know, I mean, I've got atomic watches atomic clocks because I like having the accurate time. That's that's sort of cool, you know, but oh well such as life. Now that there is an hour between the end of this program and iron sharpens iron.

Then at three o 'clock Eastern, this would be standard time now. So that's now we're two hours off the west coast and one hour ahead of the left coast. At least for a while. It's what it's about eight months four months or so, isn't it?

That may be five five months. So about seven months five months now. Anyway, all that silliness aside the government telling us what to do and dishonoring time and all that stuff I will be on iron sharpens iron in an hour after this program two hours from now, basically and We will be reviewing the Shabir Ali debate, so If you've got not gotten enough, you'll be able to get it again obviously, I'd like to put it within the context of the fact that in New York, especially you do have more of a mixture and You do have more opportunities of a witness I think in in New York with Muslims and you might in Phoenix or something like that.

But we'll be doing that iron sharpens iron then Thursday evening, I believe it is eight o 'clock Eastern Time. We are going to be doing a debate. This was not one that I went looking for it went looking for me I was contacted by a I'm not sure if it's actually a radio station or if it is more of a webcasting situation, but To do a debate on baptism this Thursday evening with Greg Strawbridge who's well-known in that area.

He's the editor interestingly enough. Anyways, he's the editor of the book that was Held up at the beginning of the baptism debate last year as being sold by the Presbyterian side on on the subject of baptism and so I'm not even sure how long it's going.

I'm not sure if it's an hour or two hours or I need to be looking at those things sort of snuck up on me but we'll be doing that and as far as we can tell we think we will be able to webcast it and Live so you can listen in live.

We it'll be done this will be the first time we've ever done anything like this they use Skype as their method of choice and then record it off of Skype, well, we'll be using Skype and Rich started Sitting in front of the equipment yesterday going.

All right. No, what if I did this and then I plugged that in over there. And I pretty much knew that we were gonna end up being able to do it when I started hearing.

Ha ha ha ha.

Start hearing the Tim Taylor action. Yes, yes, yes, yes, that's how it works and.

Why did you say no calls? Well, they'll be no calls during that program. Oh.

Call say it would be good eight seven seven seven five three three three four one, but no. We will not be taking calls during the debate. It'll be just Greg Strawbridge and myself. So Anyway, that'll be Thursday night and speaking of calls.

There's first one coming in. That'll be Thursday night. I believe it's eight o 'clock Eastern Standard Time, which would be six o 'clock my time, I believe. And If something changes on that, I'll throw it up on the blog and we'll figure it out from there.

So you might want to keep those mind? That's. Oh and on the blog I'm sure most of you have seen this. Most of the folks who listen to the webcast live do follow the blog. On the blog you will find a.

A.

Link to the Gary DeMar show that aired this weekend I think I'm about 20 stations across the United States and it included an interview With myself and my daughter's summer during the first half hour about her Experiences with certain professors who don't like Christianity and I thought it went very well and then the second half hour Gary talked to me about the debates we've been doing with the Muslim apologists Specifically the Shabir Ali because they are also making that available.

So That link is on The website and so there's another hours worth of listening for algo to undergo and to memorize. So that three years from now we will be able to ask algo When did I say, you know. Four words in a row and he'll be able to go.

Well, that was 47 minutes and 24 seconds into the Gary DeMar show that aired over the first weekend of November in.

And.

Everybody will once again move as far away from him as possible because he's so very scary. So anyway. That that is what's going on there. So we go back To the discussion that we were having on the program last time and like I said Open phones today.

If you'd like to call in eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Be glad to take your calls. Don't necessarily I know last time I just sat here and talked real fast for an hour, but Don't necessarily want to do that today.

If there are some other issues that you would like to to bring up that would be fine. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And in fact, let me talk about something before I go back to the shibari debate because there's some things I do want to say in fact, I I.

Last time we were on I was talking about I'll get the stuff up on Luke 22 I'll get it up, you know this afternoon or something like that and it went up about 15 minutes ago. And that because I'm I'm lazy no, it's because it took a very long time because once I got into it I.

Realized I.

Can't just throw this stuff out there and not give a context. There's some really interesting stuff here I want to be able to provide something. You're just not going to get someplace else. So you'll see a graphic for example of Scrivener's transcription of codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis and you have a discussion of the of the variant that's there and.

And.

Sacrificial language in the Establishment of the Lord's Supper and all the rest of these things pointing to the cross and you know. Pretty full discussions pretty lengthy article and it took some time to put it all together and to make sure you're crossing your T's and dotting Your eyes and that was posted only a little while ago and you will see.

At least right now. There is a an attempt on my part to incorporate some Arabic for the term shirk. As I am learning the language and beginning to read portions of the Quran I want to be able to share this information and you hear Arabic words a lot anymore.

You for example if we're talking about Shabir Ali's the head of the Dawah Center was Dawah mean. Well invitation summoning and it's literally the first step of jihad believe it or not you you cannot engage in physical jihad against a nation or people until you've invited them to submit to to Islam first and so.

Most people a little bit uncomfortable with the recognition, but it makes sense that apologetics and the presentation of the Islamic faith is technically the first step of jihad and It has to be done before the physical element of jihad can take place and so You know that's it's an Arabic term and and shirk is an Arabic term.

So I need to be able to display this and so what we're struggling with right now is Getting Arabic Unicode fonts to to work on the blog. Because the Greek and the Hebrew we use right now if you go down to the bottom the blog.

There's some some fonts to install for you to be able to see these things from Bible works. But there is at least I know of at least one Arabic font looks fine. It's standard Arabic font. That's comes in Windows so and it's supposed to be Unicode, but we're not able to get this crazy thing to work for some odd reason yet, but Ian just displayed Arabic on his blog and that's first time he's blogged.

So.

But.

Anything to help. Ian blog, you know I had to work hard to come up with something that would actually cause him to blog but it did work. So we're working on that. So hopefully maybe toward the end of the day the term shirk will actually appear in Arabic on the blog rather than the Semicolon, I think it's semicolon RA or something.

I forget what it was. Which is currently there, but we'll we'll get it to we'll get it to work. Yeah, see Keith Keith knows a bunch of Arabic terms. They're in channel right there. Takia Fatwa shirk dawah dimitude and then of course blue goes gesundheit.

If you're not in the channel you just miss part of the program. That's just all there is to it. We have some professional comedians in there some of whom who some of whom moonlight as dentists.

In.

Fact what's worse is I will be seeing him Thursday morning. So I That's not gonna be a good thing. So anyways before you take our first call I Did want to make some comment? I was gonna I was gonna blog about this and I had oh man.

It's just so so disgusting but over the past week or so we've all been hearing about the 11 million dollar judgment against Fred Phelps and the The cult in Kansas. It's only way to describe it. It's a cult.

I Have people I've. I realized we get new listeners all the time. I have encountered Fred Phelps before. I will never forget my my one encounter with with Fred Phelps and.

They.

He and his his cult had shown up at at the General Conference the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City. This was after the new Meeting house it opened and so they were. I guess they heard that Mel white and his folks were going to be showing up.

And so they decided to make the trip up to a Salt Lake City. And of course that was just another way of you know, absolutely turning everything into lunacy. Out there their their signs are disgusting.

They violate every possible kind of scriptural admonition regarding What we should be setting our minds on and how we should behave and the fruits of the spirit and everything else. But Phelps was standing there and I walked up to him and I started off by mentioning to him that I had just recently debated Barry Lynn on the subject in homosexuality.

Well that got his attention. I mean here's somebody who has stood up against Barry Lynn and Barry Lynn's tried to sue us to suppress the tapes of the debate and and Hey, you know someone someone on our side and then all I did honestly all I did As he made some kind of comment.

Oh, that's that's good. You know, that's interesting and all I did is this said, but you know the scriptures tell us to speak the truth in love and As soon as I said that I could tell it was a pre determined signal to his Followers most of whom were in his family.

To.

Rally around him is he yells? You're a god hater and here comes all these people they get between me and him and just start screaming at me just start. Irrational not not a brainwave happening in the entire group.

Just what I just just yelling and screaming. You're a god hater. All the rest of stuff just shuts it down instantly. I mean it I don't know how much more. Clearly you would you'd have to define the term cult.

Then for it to apply to Fred Phelps and his and his gang. And so I'm telling you These folks there is absolutely no question that Christians should should denounce these people separate themselves from these people as much as possible say these people are clearly imbalanced.

They can they can talk about how evil homosexuality is all day long and while there's the statement is true a person who is ignoring the clear biblical mandates as to how we are to Proclaim the truth and how we are to act personally toward others is not a person who truly believes what they're saying.

They do they are not adorning the gospel of Christ. It is not a matter of compromising with our society in any way shape or form. It's a simple matter of recognizing that if you act the way they act you are getting yourself in front of the message and you're putting yourself out there and you're the one who thinks you're all that important and all the rest of Stuff and and and there should be no problem and everybody's saying these people are as far outside the folds.

They could possibly be it's a cult. No question about it. But having said all that Here's the problem. Anybody who's sitting around going? Yeah, all right. Whoo-hoo nailed those suckers. Ha ha ha ha.

11 million bucks. Needs to recognize that. Just as we detest what these people are doing and just as we detest their methodologies in there and everything else if I say that God is bringing judgment against this nation, which he most assuredly is and we can see it all around us and we can see the evil of of our society and All the rest of these things has not now a precedent been set To where the very same precedent can be used to shut us down.

I mean, I guess he's got a bunch of lawyers in the family and that's how they can probably afford things but here's the problem is that Unfortunately that sets a precedent to where the abuse of such authority and power can then be used.

Against anyone who says anything's sin at all. Now wouldn't it be a whole lot more easy if these people weren't such jerks and just put it in people's faces. Yeah, but the fact remains. It shouldn't be illegal to be a jerk.

The the punishment these people should get is that they should be shunned by everybody. And that they should have nobody to talk to in essence and and and mainly experience shame. For being for being rejected by those who do know the scriptures and believe the scriptures.

But to do what has happened and to have a jury say you people are a bunch of jerks fork over 11 million bucks. Listen take some time. I made a I'm not sure if it's a big mistake or not, but I I informed Rich of a local radio station that is way out on the left beam.

We didn't even know they were there. But I happened to find them a few weeks ago and I told him about him and so every once in a while he tunes this this group in and.

Comes in going.

They were they were saying are you talking about pull out your hair America.

Man I'll tell you there are some I mean wow. They are really out there and they look there most of their listeners Would love to see me thrown in in the in jail they'd love to see us shut down not for any other reason than we dare to think that what we believe is true and.

Those folks are out there and once these precedences are set precedents are set a little multiple plurals are. They're gonna be used that's We'd you know so as much as as I absolutely deplore Fred Phelps the man is not my brother in Christ.

He doesn't know the gospel. He can say true things, but if you say them with hatred in your heart the way he does Just just reject them out of hand, but the fact the matter is what was done was not the way that that it should be done and So we are stuck going, huh, you know, I certainly Understand what these people wanted to do these people are just just hate-filled people and we don't like hate-filled people but the fact is a lot of people think that everything the gospel says is hate and.

So once you cross that line, what are you gonna do? Where is it? Where's it go? So well, this is interesting. I just this I haven't verified this but this just popped into channel Fred Phelps believe or not was a civil rights attorney in the 60s who successfully defended NFL great Gail Sayers Who was arrested during a protest march against the segregationist College?

Well, that's interesting that coming from the found of all knowledge. The host himself of iron sharpens iron Chris Arnzen and channel. So yeah. The 60s were a while back. I only remember a certain portion of them myself.

So So there you go, I mean it is such a shame and I personally, you know, the amazing thing is here I think Fred Phelps is a part of the wrath of God. Fred Phelps's people part of the wrath of God when God lifts his hands and allow cults like this.

To do what Fred Phelps does and to mock the truth by his behavior. That in and of itself is a part of the wrath of God the very people who scream and yell about the wrath of God. Are themselves a manifestation of the wrath of God against our society?

Well, you'll recall that he and his group showed up the year before the King James only.

Signed people that was that the year before cuz I was just a year before right around the same time.

I mean we we never did prove it. But our suspicion at the time was that the local remember the local King James only church there in Salt Lake City had brought him in and that this was in relation to the rumor that Mel white Mel white and his group was going to come and protest the church.

Now what I found Amazing and I think we still have pictures of this up on our website.

Was.

These pictures of Homosexual church I cleaned it up a little bit the signs that I used we're pointing at the Mormon tabernacle or the Mormon Conference Center and Just blew my mind to to see that because of all the things you could say about the Mormon Church, that's not one of them.

Well.

You're gonna have the same percentage. You're gonna have any place else. I mean and there are studies that Throwing 19 year old single guys together Missions is not a good thing either in that context.

But but and we had had act up show up right Queer nation and all protesting against all protesting against the LDS Church, but it's not like Mormonism saying oh, yeah, this is great.

This is fine. This is wonderful. That that's obviously not the case. The the interesting thing. I found though is I think that and this is my opinion of what occurred. Was that they brought Phelps in for that event, and it's so disrupted things that they weren't gonna invite him back.

Obviously he's got bigger fish to fry in other places. You know whatever wherever a TV camera was and no TV cameras picked him up there. Really I didn't know that. No no. Remember this is KSL.

At the.

Events up there totally pans everything going on out in the street. It's been my observation.

But I think once all the police started showing up. I think they were finally finally forced to have yeah.

Yeah, but the the following year was when they started bringing in this other group and They brought them back in every year. I mean these folks come and stay at home.

Yeah, I don't think they even have anything to do bring them in anymore that they just want to be there. Yeah, and if they ever stopped showing up the first time we showed up. They'd show up again. Yes, sir and followers do it.

So it's again like you're saying the guy's judgment bringing confusion bringing all kinds of things to to I Don't know roadblock the gospel because you know you go from being able to have Decent conversations with people being able to pass out a track smile at somebody look him in the eye and at least there's a pleasant Interaction there that you're hoping that tract is gonna go home with somebody.

To you know mom grabbing the kids and holding them close and everybody looking down at the ground As they cross the street, and that's poison the whole thing.

When people ask why why don't you people go up to Salt Lake anymore? Well, that's why folks the Mormons couldn't stop us, but the the King James only fundamentalist certainly certainly did. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four.

One is the phone number and that is the number that Our good old friend Jeff called hi Jeff. How you doing?

I'm glad I'm a friend.

Well and a graduate friend to congratulations.

You must be thinking a different job. Oh, I'm sorry. They call in often enough that you should remember me, so I do. I just I'm trying to read the thing over here. It's a different screen these days. Oh well my my wife's expecting in December.

There's something to to give congratulations over. I apologize that yes, you are in In Pennsylvania. You went. The other Jeff moved and has gone to seminary and was just talking about having gotten his his Diploma, and I got that an email and blah blah blah blah.

Anyways I'm lucky to I'm lucky to show up on the right day these days.

For the dividing line, that's what we just said. Daylight savings. Oh that yeah.

Well like I said you know that didn't that didn't impact me then all the time I'm wasting running around fixing my clocks which have gone the wrong direction. Thanks to all the rest of you folks. So anyway I'm sorry.

Sorry to both Jeff's. So congratulations to the other Jeff and congratulations to you now. You're gonna make sure to get the baby born before January 1st.

That has been discussed back in March or yeah, I think I think we need to do like.

Marathon whatever you need to do before December 31st. Because let me tell you the child tax credit really helps.

It really really does I I said I've been telling people for a while after the health of the baby prior to January 1st.

Yep, yep, especially after you get to pay all the medical bills. Oh, there's so much fun anyway. If we just lived in Canada, I would all be free.

Yeah, yeah, we'll see you in like ten months.

You just deliver that baby home bring it about ten months everything and you'd be just fine, okay.

I had a couple quick things. I was wondering if you heard the white horse in this week with Roberts to Jenna.

I did not. I heard about it, but I was a little surprised that. That they had some Jenna's on. Um, maybe it's because and Jenna's was a part of the group back in. What was it 93? I think that did the debates over in LA, but.

Some Genesis.

Orthodox credentials are very much under question right now. And so I don't really know Exactly why they would go with with him in that context. Was that mentioned or discussed?

No, oh great it is if they were mentioned that they met him at. They became friends with him at a particular debate in the 90s. But they did not say which debate they but and Michael Horton just asked him a lot of questions.

Didn't really.

Yeah, I did. I saw commentary on it in channel and Basically, the commentary was should it be nice if someone would actually say no that's wrong. And here's why rather than just question question question question type type of situation.

Yeah, they went from that and they didn't have a follow-up with you know, like a roundtable follow-up, right and when I another radio show did that once where they were interviewing a rabbi and I think it's like well if you don't have like a debriefing that that can I.

You know that creates a lot of question people's minds without You know providing follow-up. I don't think that's that's a good thing. Although Horton did ask good questions. Good good, and the other quick thing was I Heard that the new Christian Research Journal has a Calvinist and non-calvinist.

Yes, the non-calvinist wants to argue that Calvinism makes God the author of evil and I think it's more in the along lines of for ordination.

Yeah, it's I think. Isn't that the current issue?

I believe that's a current issue and I guess more of my questions. Since I haven't read the article and I don't get the magazine anymore, I was kind of curious when did that. For ordination become a Calvinism doctrine I thought that was kind of more general.

Yeah, well it was. But with the influx of Molinism and the the popularizing of at least the the Foundations of that if not the the terminology by people like William Lane Craig I think there's a generation of folks who are have a pretty soft view of God's eternality and The relationship between God and time and things like that so that It's no longer really just part and parcel of the of the Orthodox perspective.

There's much obviously clearly on part of many people much more willingness to Brook such concepts as open theism and things like that and still Allow these people to remain within the broader evangelical camp.

I mean if Clark Pinnock can be described as a evangelical. You know what does the term mean anymore? It's one of the reasons. I I find the term to be so.

Well, yeah, that's the thing is if you if you have creation and foreknowledge. You're pretty much in the same boat aren't you?

Well, no see that's just it.

Using their presuppositions if you if you're if you have creation and foreknowledge you're you. Haven't you know the outcome that's going to happen? Yeah, but remember.

Within.

What was what was the answer to that provided by the non Calvinist in my appearance in December of 2003 on the Bible? Answer man on that subject. The argument that is presented more than once is well You may know.

Why you may know that Sonny and Cher divorced, but that doesn't but your knowledge did not Cause it to happen, right? And so. Evidently the idea is there is an analogy between our knowledge of the past and God's knowledge of the future.

The problem of course with that from I think any perspective is that my knowledge of the past is purely passive. And hence I could not have had anything to do with that. But when you have foreknowledge knowledge before it comes to pass.

You're either saying that that time and everything in time when God created it was completely outside of his control. He just rolled the cosmic dice and it happened and he takes in passive knowledge of what happened.

And he just happens to have won at the end. Which is which to me is just frightening in its implications and and and everything else. It would also seem to completely lock God out of time. I mean he becomes a passive observer of the events of time and it not not Active in the sense of having a decree that involves his actions in time itself.

I mean if he just simply rolls the dice and goes. Oh, this is what I have passive knowledge of what free free people are going to do. He can't change that. And so he's he's in essence locked out of time.

So. But so much of theology today doesn't start first with the doctrine of God and then move from there to the doctrine of creation and the Events and creation and that which is created and things like that reflecting Postmodernism and and the focus upon man.

It starts with man and then creates a doctrine of God that is fitting to its doctrine of man. And I think that's one of the major differences between the two perspectives, so You know when you say when you seriously promote the idea that well You're knowing that Sonny and Cher divorced didn't cause it and that has something to do with God knowing what's going to happen in the future, but that doesn't mean that he had anything to do with its causation or In creation did not set up the conditions whereby it took place or anything else.

Very scary very scary. I don't think it's it's defensible in any way, but very scary. All right.

Well, I need to get back to the seminary. Okay.

Well, you keep working toward that you need to work toward where you will be able to. Accept the congratulations that I offered the wrong person about the graduate about the about the diploma. So you get back to work then.

All right. Well, good. Good luck winning the Super Bowl or whatever you're doing. Okay. Thanks a lot.

It's seven seven seven five three three three four one I think that's you know, I I think it's a very valid thing to point out that. You know if you're gonna I most people have given up on systematic theology.

Anyways, let's face The there is a there's a whole broad spectrum of people who go. You know, what?

I.

Like mystery in theology, I like Contradiction. In theology, you know, I was listening Darcy Sproul speaking in Hawaii and He was talking about how in seminary. He incurred the same stuff that I did and and that is you know people standing up there as professors and going.

You know embracing Of course term that they used when I was in seminary was the tensions of the text. Which was just a really fancy way of saying I'm going to believe that the Bible contradicts itself.

And I'm gonna try to pretend that I can I can make something out of the contradictions.

That's.

You know and That that the higher the higher form of revelation is Is that which embraces the contradiction of the text and blah blah blah blah blah? And as RC said I even as a seminary student realized that if if You're saying that something can be X and on X at the same time that you really don't have anything meaningful to say to me.

Didn't make any sense. But that's what was really popular at the time and it unfortunately still remains that way and so People don't mind having a theology of the of man that's contradictory to the theology of God it's kind of the theology of the gospel that's kind of their theology of the church and Somewhere is a badge of honor.

I remember one guy in seminary. We both went to the same church, and we were sitting around at a church function one night. We're both in the same seminary. And one of the things he said me was James you just you just want you you want things to be too logical and consistent and That was that whole, you know Embrace contradiction thing that was it was going on.

So the result is Is a mess now someone just asked a channel. Do you see a difference between contradiction and paradox? So well, what's paradox? Every time I hear someone bring that up when they boil it down ends up being a nice fancy word for contradiction and They'll say well, you know the Trinity is a paradox.

No, it's not. Well, how's the Trinity a paradox? Well the freedom of man and the freedom of God there are a paradox exactly how oh They just are well exactly how you want to flesh that out. And well, they're just things that will never fully understand.

Oh, no. Nope, that's the Paul seem to understand it scriptures seem to explain it. So what exactly you know I'm not saying that there are not high Revealed truths that take Christian maturity to fully understand and to and to apply and things like that, but Sorry, don't don't see how that works.

So anyway, uh so we've talked about Phelps we've taken a phone call and Probably would be good to get to at least a couple of things that should barely said. So that I don't have to necessarily type all these things out there is a Okay, here's a question.

Is there a is there a place for some mystery? What's a mystery? Mystery in Scripture is that which was hidden from preceding generations, but it has been revealed in Jesus Christ. So what's a mystery?

Again anything that is that is being used to say well I'm going to embrace contradiction and I'm going to place Scripture at odds with Scripture. I don't see any reason for that. The idea of mystery in the sense that well is God just simply a big man, it's all been explained.

No, I'm not saying the Bible explains everything. I've said many many many many times that as as Calvin said God is the one who sets the limitations to our knowledge Based upon what he reveals in Scripture and when God says I'm not going to reveal anything more on this then God Doesn't have to reveal anything more on that and that's where Humility comes in play and we have to stop we don't go beyond where God has spoken and when people go beyond where God has spoken they create all that's when they really start creating paradoxes and antinomies and all the rest of these things because They end up contradicting themselves horribly, but when God has spoken I believe that God speaks with clarity and that he he doesn't contradict himself and so What can I say?