What is the Word of Faith Movement?

Put your hand on that television set.

Yes.

Hallelujah.

Thank you, Jesus.

Thank you, Lord Jesus. He received your healing.

Yes.

Now, say it.

I take it.

I take it.

I have it.

I have it.

It's mine.

It's mine.

I thank you and praise you for it.

Yes.

And I forgive if I have ought against any.

Yes.

And I praise you that I'm well and whole...

I praise you that I'm well and whole.

...according to the Word of God...

You 're good, Lord.

...I'm healed...

Yes.

...and I consider not my own body.

Yes.

Consider not my own body.

I consider not symptoms in my body...

I consider not symptoms in my body.

...but only that which God has promised.

Only that which God has promised.

Only that what the Word has said. Only that what the Word has said. I was healed and by his stripes. I am healed now. I'm not the sick trying to get healed. I'm the healed and the devil's trying to give me the flu.

Or whatever else kind of thing. He's trying. Yeah. Healed and well, yes, and the sweet name of Jesus.

Amen.

Hallelujah.

Word of Faith, Coronavirus Panic, and the Timing of the Discussion

All right, welcome Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I am one of the co-hosts here. I am here as always with Andrew super sleuth the super sleuth of the show.

How are you man? I'm doing well I'm doing great. Yeah, so we are in very interesting times. We are actually here in studio with Melissa doubt tree. No.

Every time because I mispronounce my name because already dot tree sounds better than Doherty.

I always think of that because like that band. It was the guy. Yeah, oh my gosh, so we're here with Melissa Doherty. Thank you, and you've been on with us before. Yeah. We had a discussion about Bethel in the new ways that came out last year and we are here once again.

Glad you could make it here. You actually made it here before we all get all the travel bands going full effect.

Hopefully, I'll be able to go home. Yeah.

It'll be very interesting to see where we are by the time even this episode gets released next Tuesday. It's just the world has changed in the last a week and a half and also we're here with Stephen Bancars.

Good to see you, man. Third time's the charm.

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this one and we don't actually have to worry because that prayer was made on the TV. So yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, receive it. Claim it right. His hand was even wet with like oil or he's washing it for the.

There's actually no oil. It was just the anointing.

Just seeping from his hands. Yeah. Yes.

So the Context as far as the audio goes and we might play the actual video if you guys are watching this on YouTube when he gets Uploaded that was I believe yesterday Kenneth Copeland. He was standing a declaring victory Against the coronavirus and he was declaring in Jesus name that we would be protected from sickness.

And it's just interesting because you talk about the timing. About having a relevant topic right now because we decided we always want to try whenever we have a guest on. We always want to try and pick like what's your what's your passion topic?

What are you really about? So when we had you on with Doreen that Doreen's passion topic is really to talk about the new age aspect and her concerns regarding The movement at Bethel and that was a good conversation and and it was on both really both your hearts.

They really talk about the word of faith movement and really talk about those those important issues. I know that's something that's always really bad on your heart Steven. And so it just so happens now that we have this worldwide.

Now it's been declared as a pandemic. Yes, and so the economy is in turmoil. Like you just like right now and again, it's just people. You go the news and you know people are going to freak out but you look look at the reality of what's happening you turn on like I'm a pop on drudge report and World on edge panic after travel ban system failing.

Fed pumps another 1 trillion. We're staying Wall Street since 1987. New you have what city is right now. They're shut down. They're a complete lockdown travel bans in Europe. I mean, this is by who knows where we're going to be by the time releases on Tuesday when this episode releases and so.

What's really intriguing to me as we get into this discussion is that the primary aspects of the word of faith movement always focuses around your health and your process in your financial prosperity those are directly connected to your spiritual well-being and It just so happens.

We are in a world where both of those are Incredible turmoil people are terrified about their health. Catching this coronavirus and it's still no one really knows but there's all these Uncertainties about what actually is going to take place if you catch this, I guess some people recovering some people are dying right away.

There's no it's just one of those things like no one really knows. It's that this is playing out its course and then you have right now if you look at all the grocery stores. Right now people are lined up.

You know just back, you know, they're just people are flying your toilet papers flying off the shelves. You know, you have the panic about you know, now people trying to buy canned foods. I mean, this is just I don't think I've never seen anything like this so far in my lifetime I can never remember.

I remember so why 2k before we jump into this why 2k? Yeah, people thought that the whole world is gonna collapse because of whatever it was. Whatever the numbers lining and stuff like that and people just lie.

I worked at a grocery store in 1999 New Year's Eve and people were losing their minds. So for those of you who work in retail. We are praying for you thoughts and prayers. So Yeah, all that being said, this is a very interesting time.

What do you guys think about this whole mean the timing of everything with this discussion? And also we're gonna talk about the connection with a new thought and like the new age because both of you have backgrounds in that.

But I mean you came from that and now you have ministries directly focus on that area. Just with everything going on and with the relevant topics. Like give me your thoughts on like the relevance of like this podcast, especially with everything going on right now.

Word of Faith, New Thought, and New Age Parallels

Yeah, I think it's really relevant, especially when you have people who are in the Word of Faith community. Like Kenneth Copeland, I'm sure we're gonna see stuff coming out of you know, Benny Hinsmouth and other people such as him you know, Sean Bolt's had a prophecy recently that the coronavirus is gonna like kind of die and fade away and Rodney Howard Brown another Word of Faith teacher in his church in Florida Recently made a declaration and a decree that the entire state of Florida will not be touched by the corona virus.

Right, and yeah, he was asked you will why wouldn't you just make that declaration if you have a right from God to make it? Like an effectual decree on behalf of the entire state of Florida. Why not do that for the entire country?

Well, I just I'm just doing what I'm responsible for kind of thing. And so it's important to have an understanding of What exactly are we guaranteed and promised in Christ and Also to be able to identify Teachings around sickness and around disease and around hysteria that that promote fear.

That don't provide comfort to the soul that are false that are misleading and that can create suffering pain. Disappointment brokenheartedness a weakened faith. You're basically told if you get in the Word of Faith moon if you're sick.

The problem is your faith. It's with you, right? It's a spiritual problem and if you're not healed this because you don't have enough enough faith and we'll get into all of that but What made this conversation?

Important to me and to Melissa as well. I'll let her speak on that. But for me personally when I came out of the New Age movement. You know, I was studying the law of attraction. I was trying to practice the law of attraction and these same principles that we're going to cover that Word of Faith teachers have been teaching since the Early 1900s right about man being ontologically God by nature and we're gonna go through primary quotes from Word of Faith teachers and from New Thought New Age teachers.

Showing striking similarities and parallels big-time between Word of Faith and New Thought New Age. So this isn't meant to be a discussion, you know trying to undermine every single Word of Faith doctrine.

There's people who are more biblically qualified than us that can do that. Someone like a Costi hand for example who might be a good guest to have on right sometime about this topic. But I came out of the New Age.

She came at a new thought and we're both saying there's striking parallels between the Word of Faith movement and the New Thought cults and the New Age cults that you know, we were a part of little God's doctrine the idea that Jesus isn't really that unique the idea that faith is a force.

The idea that you can kind of Make positive affirmations and confess your reality into existence with your words running it into all of this. But when what interested what interests me about the Word of Faith teachings and the Word of Faith practice is that It's a baptized version of the same thing.

I was involved in when I was in the New Age movement. You're just slapping the name of Christ on it. There's a few differences. But the principles are the exact same and we're gonna prove this with primary quotes.

So I'm looking forward to that. It comes from like this.

Yeah root sure and this is sort of the area when you talk about how is it relevant to our area of focus? And again, we're we're a show. We're a Christian. We have a show and it's funny. We always get the review is that we're like, we're really a cult talking about cults and stuff.

And it's like and people think we have some sort of hidden agenda. But we're always very open about it. Like we're y 'all we're we are a show that deals with the world of the cult from a biblical perspective.

Yeah, and given that we look through world wouldn't neutralities and myth and that God is the arbiter of truth that we the term Knowledge of cult is that any is any group or any person sit around one particular person organizations misinterpretation of the Bible?

Yeah, where they always will you it's Christian terminology, but the ultimately they deny the the nature of Jesus that he's the eternal God and human flesh and. And even this in this particular case what you'll see it's a terminology different.

Well, they will use the words Jesus faith healing and they will talk about these particular things but you'll see once you see the origins of the the New thought and and you see the connection between like we're the faith teaching and when you start making these comparisons.

That's where you see the similarity and that's when Walter Martin talks about being familiar with the original. What's what it what's a biblical basis for this and how do we give a response?

Yeah.

And I think it's also really good too because especially even now. Dealing from a Christian perspective with everything that's going on in the world right now. You know in for in a second Timothy 1 7 it says for God has given us a spirit of not a fear.

But of power and love and self-control. And so when we look at what's going on in the world and honestly we have to think about there's a lot of people right. Now that have this perspective and have this worldview.

So we're not here to bash anyone. We're talking we're here to talk about we're not here to socialize anything. We're just gonna talk about primary sources, but then again you talk about practically like how do you live?

How do you live this out? how do you see the world because there's a lot of people just for example, we'll talk about one like one person for example, that's Primary when you think of like someone in the wind as far as word of faith goes is Joel Steen.

He always talks about making your declaration. It says who I am who I say I am, you know. And you have all these things and it just so happens that they just announced that Lakewood Church is shutting down their services.

It's going to it's only gonna be online. So, why aren't they making declare all these people who want to make declarations that I'm free from the corona, but they're not doing that so. It's one of those things where when it when the rubber meets the road and you have this crisis.

That is directly connected to how they view the world and theology.

Like how is this going to affect them like why in their true colors? Yes. Yeah, you know. Yeah, they'll say this stuff applies in any and all Circumstances, but just so happens when the most important circumstance emerges.

Well, we're gonna shut down our healing rooms now. We're gonna shut down our services now. You should be the ones asking people to come in because we're making declarations that nobody is gonna get you know.

Catch this disease this virus in Jesus name, but it's really revealing Where they actually stand and on one hand, they're hypocrites. They need to be addressed as such but on the other hand, you know, we should kind of applaud them for at least being like Okay, great.

You're using some common sense now like there is a point where you're willing to abandon all this weird right fluffy declaration based Doctrine that lacks biblical precedent, right? And so and and we also want to address to in this podcast not just show a parallel.

Also, what does the Bible say about this topic? So we're gonna look at a topic address it for more to faith teachers primary sources new age teachers primary sources but what does the Bible say because we want to You know encourage people in the truth not just show them what error is but give them the alternative right and instruct them in that.

And Melissa, I kind of want to get a little bit of feedback from you because you were Raised in new thought and you actually have some new thought books with you today. Yeah, you said you have hundreds of new thought new age books.

My grandparents were Christian scientists. So that led us into a lot of weird waters growing up but yeah, I have a ton of these books and the ideas in these books are inherently Everything that we're talking about, you know, it's your your health wealth your your life in general is all determined on your the manifestation of your reality basically your feelings with your words and I had no idea.

This wasn't Christian. I thought that this was higher spirituality. So if you're talking about bringing health and wealth and You know things into your world. It's done through your thoughts feelings actions and To me growing up the reason why I'm passionate about this in particular is because I Was more word of faith than I realized because I was really into the law of attraction.

I was really into Affirmations. Well, not so much affirmations as I was into claiming that I was something. You know, I if I wanted money I was wealthy, you know I am this I am that and it was a thought life that I have adopted at that time and Like I brought the secret with me and the secret is You know where the law of attraction a lot of people would be familiar with this book others not so much you have these new thought teachers that were all over in the 1900s 1800s and like Emmett Fox is one of them a few people might know who he is most won't and But they they all believe in the same thing.

They all say the same things in their books about You know if tithing for example There's a law of tithing if you if you give 10 then according to the law of tithing The Bible says you must receive that back tenfold and that reminds us a lot of what we would hear on You know these these televangelists.

Yeah, whatever you so you will reap. Yeah, and so we find these we find this threaded together in these books and these teachings and they call themselves Christians. They say that this is the this is what the Bible teaches and then you have word of faith teachers who Change it a little bit.

It's not exactly the same, but the the premise of what they're saying and what they're doing Inherently is a new thought so when I saw this happening when I when I Came out of the new thought I get into you know countercult ministry.

I see all of these teachers in in Christianity Teaching what I see to be law of attraction based like Joel Steen we had Joel Steen Some people might love him, but what he teaches inherently is the law of attraction he's talking about your best life now and the power of I am Everything about that premise is new thought law of attraction.

You know what's interesting about what's happening right now in our society especially with the coronavirus you saying when it when it all comes Down to it. This is what they practice. This is what they preach.

The truth is is that's that's true because they separate themselves in the times where they say they actually have this power. They're gonna close their church distant themselves from the sick and yet still try to speak something into existence yet.

Not being right with it. It's like a spiritual pushback.

Yeah.

You see it's like their bluff is being called almost when they're suffering in the world or when there's something that's happening out of your Control you actually find out where people's faith truly lies.

And like that that's the situation that we're getting into. Like we heard Kenneth Copeland in the beginning giving that declaration he's using words like faith or Healing, but what exactly does he mean by that?

And we're gonna be getting into that today. Yeah, and it's something totally different than what we would think in Orthodox Christianity. Yeah, Stephen hit on an earlier by saying a force, but yeah, we're gonna get into that.

And I think it's really interesting especially the signs of the times right now. You'll see. By people's practices where their faith actually lies it's gonna strip away the the supposed Christian Exterior and you will see truly what they mean.

The Origins of the Word of Faith Movement in Kenyon, Branham, and Hagin

Yeah by their actions, right. And it's interesting because if you look at the history of the word of faith movement it seems as though there's some primary fathers of the word of faith movement, which would be Kenneth Copeland Kenneth Hagin and William Branham, maybe another one or two but then you also have the grandfather like the unanimous grandfather of the word of faith movement, which would be Essek William Kenyon who was a Baptist minister, but who was surrounded by metaphysical Influence at the University.

He went to Boston during the time of like the massive New Thought yeah, and he studied this stuff and he had an extensive metaphysical library and.

It.

Undoubtedly Influenced his thoughts his teachings and he is someone that Hagan plagiarized. Yeah over and over and over again. We can document that like Hagan would have these visions right. So he claims that he went to heaven.

He saw Jesus, but then what Kenyon ends up teaching out of that is literally word for word. Taken from a Kenyon book and there's there's many examples of this. But Kenyon himself who was influenced by people like Mary Baker Eddy and Phineas Quimby who are you know?

The founders of New Thought right influence Kenyon. Kenyon then influences Hagan who is really the the modern father right of the word of faith movement. Starting an official word of faith denomination.

I think it was the early 70s. Yeah. Yeah early 70s. I'm a 9 or 72 or something. Yeah and starting, you know, Ramah Ramah Bible College and you know. We're not saying that everyone who attends these colleges isn't saved or everyone who follows Hagan isn't saved or that.

You know if you identify as word of faith, you're on your way to hell. But these are dangerously misleading teachings and I actually I would say that there are some teachers in the word of faith movement some of whom we're gonna be talking about today where.

The quotes that they have said are so blasphemous and so heretical people can make their own decisions. I think we would unanimously agree that they're in danger of hellfire. Oh, yeah for the things that they're saying you cannot be a born-again believer born of the Spirit born of the same spirit that wrote The Bible and say things that contradict it in very major ways that are black and white in Scripture.

Where's the fear of God in their eyes? Yeah. Yeah the way they handle script.

Well, then if the Spirit Spirit of God is in you there it's almost like how can you be saying these things if you're getting direct revelation from God and it's going against what you even seen as word and.

What you're saying aligns more with new thought teachings. Metaphysical new thought teachings than what you would ever see in the Bible, right? And that's where I cry foul personally and I thought about Kenyon so Kenyon yes, he he he would deny that he ever had any involvement in the metaphysical cults like he he denounced them so.

It's interesting because he would he didn't even consider himself a Pentecostal. But the Word of Faith movement did start in Pentecostal ism. Like if you're really gonna do your homework and go back it started with Pentecostal Branham and Lake.

Yes, and people like that. So it didn't really start in the new thought metaphysics. It was influenced by it. So you had people like Kenyon. Kenyon's the one who really was. It's like he was the tiny tip of the bigger iceberg he had.

He had small things that were out of whack that turned into much bigger things and. That's really how it all started but people would argue about Kenyon being influenced directly by Christian science or can be when and.

But it's done demonstrably. You can just read what he wrote and simply see the connection that like little gods.

Yeah.

And and positive confessions things like this that were mirrors of what you would see a new thought without a doubt. You could see that there's a connection there even though he would not connect himself at all with the metaphysical cult so some people I know in the Pentecostal Pentecostals or even hyper hyper charismatic movement would argue that Kenyon was legit and he's not.

I mean if you read his writings They're gonna match up to what we're seeing from Hagen, which I'm sure that they would revert to look at with with respect and. But that's what we're gonna show is how it's paralleled with what we see in new thought.

And it all started with Kenyon.

Yeah, it lacks biblical parallel, but it does have new thought new age parallel. Yes, so Kenyon can say and people who want to defend Kenyon can say well he had no influence from the metaphysical cults.

Okay, show me what he's saying in Scripture. You can't but I can show you what he's saying in the secret. Yeah, or in some of these works from Quineas Femby we're quoting today. Yeah, right and here's a thought too.

It's like You know when Jesus says, you know, you will know a tree by its fruit, right? You know it, you know the the the ultimate root of something by the fruit right that has produced out of it. Immediately in the 70s when Hagen started his Word of Faith denomination you had very solid Christians Dave Hunt John Akenberg, I think that's how you pronounce his last name who were immediately within like two years.

Writing books renouncing and responding to this holding conferences where they're having debate panels. Warning people about the Word of Faith teachings about their metaphysical lineage even Walter Martin.

Yeah, even Walter Martin. Yeah, so how is it that that's the fruit of a move of the Spirit of God, right? Because they believe just like you know. New thought teachers believe that their ultimate source and origin for their information is revelation knowledge.

Right that they're having some kind of spiritual transmission give it to them in their spirit, man. And it's manifesting in these new teachings and they've been called to be the pioneers why would we believe that people such as you know Hagen or even Copeland who always talks about the conversations he has with the Lord and I want you to teach people this and They're receiving it through kind of the same General mechanism revelation knowledge some secret special knowledge that I received and now you have to come to me to get it now.

Yeah, but okay. Well, let's test the fruit of it the fruit of it instant division and confusion you have 70 of the body of Christ who's like that is completely unbiblical and then you have 30 percent is like well There's some truth to it or maybe it's even like 33 33 33 33 where you have summer singing.

I can see some of it summers I say not see none of it and some say yeah I see all of it like how is that the fruit of the move of God when a fruit of the Spirit in Scripture? One of things that things that pleases the heart of God the most is when people Who are in his bride can come together in unity.

Amen that pleases God. He loves that, you know in Psalms it talks about brothers dwelling in unity. It's like anointing oil dripping down the beard and It's beautiful though and I love it like like we all have different views we can come together and serve around You know the gospel and serve around the cross and worship around an altar together and just love on the Lord and love on people.

But immediately when these word-of-faith teachers who apparently hear from God directly the immediate Fruit of it is the vision confusion books being written by very solid Bible scholars.

That's one of the things that Walter Martin always did too is that he always sought unity on the essentials and that's one of the things he did to in his ministry back in California when he found the Christian Research Institute.

Is that he worked with a lot of the churches and he just said we need to figure out the essentials because the kingdom the Colts this is where this is the ground zero there and we need to really move.

Mobilize and find out and work off of what we have common and and because this is just a huge Almost like an app. It was like a pandemic of cultism like in this in the 70s. Yes, we're gonna we're gonna speak in parallel a little bit but um what is really intriguing with me and just with some of the books that kind of we've read in preparation for this and I've noticed this just with the discussion when it comes to The hyper cares hyper you call it, I guess hyper charismania or Just looking at the panic some of the hyper Pentecostal movement or just some of these word-of-faith movements movement teachers when it comes especially originating from the 1900s where when you look at the What when you look at rep the our?

Christian view of Revelation is one of the best arguments against the world the kingdom of the Colts. Because every single cult always starts off of a private revelation. Whether it's Joseph Smith, whether it's Mary Baker Eddie or whether it's Charles T is Russell.

They always have some special their own private revelation or they have a special insight or ability to interpret the Bible that no one else has and they have to basically be the Mediator in which to interpret the Bible for someone else.

Yeah.

And so what you see however in that with the Christian worldview is that you have the Bible which is a reliable collection of historical documents that's written by that that was written by eyewitnesses who saw supernatural events and fulfillment of specific prophecy.

These are all publicly eyewitnessed accounts and historical documentation. So you have a public Accounting in a revelation that's verified. Mm-hmm. And so you have so that's where you have with with the Christian worldview.

Versus these cults these counterfeit movements that come out what's particular to me and this doesn't mean that every single person the Word of Faith. No, we're not saying they every single one of them are cult leaders.

But what is alarming though, is that the authority and the acclaims were by which they are establishing these doctrines? They always seem to be there's there's language that's used about Restorationism this is sort of like a restoration of lost things.

And that's the area where it's alarming because you're any and even just even though. Just to kind of bring Bethlehem to the conversation. I remember just for example because I mean they're part of this whole group.

They are is that when it was back when we were doing the preparation for the Bethlehem New Age podcast I believe is in the physics of heaven. One of the chapters that Bill Johnson had wrote which was alarming to me when he talked about there are these mantle.

There's all these I'm covering these like hidden mantles and anointings. Is this sort of like a legend like the legend of I think The legend of Zelda we have to go these like hidden dungeons to find these like mantles and you're like blink.

It's like you like you found this mantle or something. Yeah, but in all seriousness. Like that's that's what's alarming. So instead of because the ultimate standard like how we detect a Counterfeit versus an original we always go back to the source.

We have to go to the Word of God and test test all things and we know. We know what is a counterfeit by studying the original but what they're doing is that we're not going to the original. We're going to some hidden source.

Some hidden knowledge and that's and that's what that's the aspect that that's alarming and all this and that's just something that need people need to be aware of. When you study the origins of this movement, there's a reason for it, too.

And Stephen was hitting on it and this is a good base. I think where we can start to help people to understand exactly Like the root of the connection between new thought and The word faith movement and Stephen was talking about this this wisdom and also revelation so there's a relationship between the material and The spiritual and how they actually relate to the importance and how one can actually manipulate the other.

Man as Little Gods and the Power of Positive Confession

Yeah, so in the new thought movement Melissa for for example Can you describe how the spiritual realm or this this this this realm that you can get tapped into? You can actually use, you know by your words or affirmations.

You can change the physical reality.

Well the main premise of when you're in the new thought and even new age. This is something they have in common I mean to kind of give the difference between the new thought new age, by the way new age is I.

Usually say the new thoughts like the cousin or like stepsister of new age is the same thing. And they're very much related but at the core. It's that you're divine, you know. And so if you're hot if you have this inner divinity, which is what all new thought teachers teach you are divine.

You have you're a little God you're godlike and as such because you're made in the image and likeness of God. You can manipulate the world around you you can manipulate your reality through your thoughts words and feelings, right?

And the way to do that and the reason why is because you are are divine. So exactly that's the thought process. So the what I do to you I do to myself which is the law of attraction like attracts like.

So that's why a lot of new agers and people that are caught up in the new thought. Do you kind of have a sense of I don't know a false piece. I want to call it because they stay out of the Mix, so to speak.

They don't they don't want to be involved in things that would mess up their Reality. Mm-hmm. So in this aspect you have teachers that say don't think negative things. Don't say negative things. Don't say you're sick.

That's no, that's not true. Do not declare that you are sick. Don't don't say you're broke. No, you are rich. You have wealth you have health you have joy. You have happiness all this stuff and speak that and out of those words will become your reality.

Yeah can manipulate the physical reality through this wisdom that you have it obtained. So so Steven in the word faith movement. What's what's the relation to that? Yeah.

There's a bunch of different ways that they will it's a bunch of doctrines that each play a role in Fulfilling that mechanism of okay. Why is it that when I speak my words? They have the ability to produce change in the physical world.

They're gonna say one because a few spiritual laws, which we'll get into. One because of the power of positive confession one because right we're little gods by nature and I think there'll be an interesting place to to start looking at comparisons here because there's a whole bunch of it's hard to Appreciate the parallels unless we break down each individual idea.

Mm-hmm, because the Word of Faith teachers. They usually kind of mishmash them all together. And they don't there's not like a systematic theology book for Word of Faith teachings, right? But when you begin to actually analyze them and say, okay like categorically, what are you saying about man's ontology?