August 26, 2019 Show with Costi Hinn on “Ten Practical Steps to Reach Deceived Souls in the Word of Faith Movement with the True Gospel”

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Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Iron Sharpens Iron Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 26th day of August 2019.

We have returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kosti Hinn, who

I am so delighted that I discovered a number of years ago through the ministry of Justin Peters.

Justin Peters has been a guest on this program quite a number of times and is also, God willing, going to be my

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon speaker this January. I heard

Kosti Hinn interviewed by Justin, and Kosti, if the name rings a bell,

Hinn, he is the nephew of notorious Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn, and he has repented and renounced the

Word of Faith movement and the religion of his uncle. He is a sovereign grace -believing, cessationist

Christian these days, and he is executive pastor of discipleship at Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert, Arizona.

This is a new call to him, just very, very recently, and today we are going to be discussing

Ten Practical Steps to Reach Deceived Souls in the Word of Faith Movement with the True Gospel. We're also going to be announcing the

G3 Conference in College Park, Georgia, which is going to be held this

January 16th through the 18th, and Kosti Hinn is on the roster at this wonderful conference.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kosti Hinn. Great to be here,

Chris. Thank you again for having me. Oh, it's always a joy to have you back, brother. I look forward to many return visits as well.

We already had an interview with Kosti Hinn where he gave his full testimony.

We were more in -depth on how he came to leave the Word of Faith movement, and if you want to listen to that interview at some point later, you just go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

go to Past Shows Podcast, click on that, and then you'll be able to type in the search engine

HINN, and Kosti will come up. His previous interviews with me will come up, and you can hear them.

But just so our listeners have some kind of semblance, if you could give us the abbreviated version of when you came to be awakened by the fact that the religion of your uncle, the religion that many in your family had embraced, the

Word of Faith movement, was indeed a false religion, a false gospel, offering false hope.

In fact, not only religiously deceived people are involved in it, there are a lot of charlatans involved in it, including your uncle.

But if you could just give us that summary version of when and how you came to realize that and how you embraced the truth.

Yeah. I would say the process started long ago when questions came to mind and different things that I saw essentially seared my conscience, and I knew that what we were doing was wrong, but at the same time

I really enjoyed the lifestyle, and I wanted to believe that we were making certain things, you know, out to be true and they weren't, but at the same time

I would think that a lot of what we're doing was true as well. So there was a lot of justifying and wrestling back and forth.

Everything came to a head for me close to seven years ago now when I was a pastor and I had studied the

Bible, I believed I knew the Bible, I had memorized Scripture, I had a clear understanding, you know, that Jesus died for my sins, and all the basics that somebody would know if they were involved in basic, you know, mainstream evangelicalism.

But all the things that I believed were gospel plus. So yeah, Jesus died for you, but he really died to give you health, wealth, and happiness here on earth.

And so for me pastoral ministry was about, you know, numbers and people and getting to, you know, preach and teach and just be influential and all the basic kind of stuff that, you know, a lot of young people go into ministry thinking today.

And I was studying for a sermon and for the first time ever we were going to go through a book of the

Bible, so we were going through the book of John. And I get to John 5 and I'm up. We had some guys rotating in.

Pastor Tony Wood is a teaching pastor, so he preached regularly and then he says, hey, Costi, you know, you're up.

And you're going to preach. The passage is John 5. That's where we happened to be. It was not planned that I would preach that text.

John 5, 1 through 17, he said, you're up. And I looked and it was the healing at the Pool of Bethesda. So I thought,

I got this nailed. I'm a hymn. I can preach this without a problem. You know?

So off I go into study and he gives me a commentary.

And at that time we were much more of an attractional, driven church. We did not go through books of the

Bible. There was no expository preaching. But we started to do that because we just wanted to know more about the

Bible. The Lord really was doing something under the surface. And it was purely him. We did not come to some grand conclusion on our own.

So he comes over. He gives me a commentary. And he says, this will really help keep the train on the track.

You know, here's a commentary that, you know, will help you in your study. And I looked and it was a burgundy commentary by some guy named

John MacArthur. I thought, okay, whatever. And I didn't really realize that that's the guy who, you know, my uncle hated and we as a family had been called out by and all of that.

That didn't click for me. Now does the guy who handed you the commentary know that? Well, to this day,

I mean, all of it was just, that was a mainstream commentary for him because it turns out our teaching pastor,

Tony, his dad is a DTS graduate. His grandfather was a faithful preacher.

He's 96 or 97, still handing out tracts at the senior citizen's home.

I mean, this guy, it's a family of preachers. So his dad had given him a bunch of books, and then he had a few

MacArthur's, thinking, you know, this guy is a pretty good theologian and pretty sound. So it was not a setup at all.

It was just a little helpful commentary. We didn't have a ton of books on the shelf, but that was one of them. So I start looking at the passage, and I see

Jesus heals one out of a multitude. He heals them right away. The guy didn't even know who he was, and the

Pharisees said, you know, who told you you could pick up your pallet and walk? And he says, I don't know the guy who healed me, and John records because he didn't know who

Jesus was. Well, that all confused me because we used to say God's going to heal everyone. It's always his will to heal everybody.

That's guaranteed in the atonement. Just receive your healing now by faith. If you don't get healed, the problem is you.

That was normal for me. And then he healed them immediately. No music, no atmosphere, no stadium, no offering, no white jacket, kind of being flung around,

I mean, no anointing, all that, just Jesus healing with a word. And then he didn't know who

Jesus was. He didn't have enough faith because he didn't even know who Jesus was. How did he not have enough faith to get healed? So all these things are confusing me.

I grab this commentary and think, and maybe there's something in here that can help. And I open it up, and MacArthur just goes off about the sovereignty of God in healing and that Christ is our healer, certainly, but he heals according to his will.

And then he goes on to say this is Christ's sovereign power in action. This man had no merits.

He didn't deserve it. He didn't do anything to get it. Jesus just healed him. And then he says the cruelest lie of faith healers today is that if you just, the people they fail to heal are guilty of negative confession, unbelief, and on and on.

And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, that's us. I taught that.

I believe that. And many other things that happened in my life, many other details that are on our other program, people that have planted seeds of truth in my life, but that moment for me was like a dam bursting forth.

Truth came in, and I just wanted to know everything else the Bible said about all the things

I had believed. So I studied, went to seminary. My pastor began to disciple me.

Our church and all of us together began to be transformed all at the same time. So it wasn't really just my story.

The Lord was doing many things in the lives of the leaders there. And we went from being an attractional church to being mission

Bible church, preaching. And pretty soon many others came to our church for Bible preaching, and that's kind of what happened over the last seven years.

So was Mission Bible Church in California a word of faith church when this started happening?

We were a word of faith. We were very, like, we would have fit in well with Stephen Furtick.

And even though we didn't do all the, like, word of faith, prosperity, weird stuff, we definitely were attractional, and everything was designed to get people in the door.

So we would have been very mushy metal. Every other series was on, like, marriage or sex or something edgy.

And then our music, you know, Bethel, Jesus, Culture Hill song kind of just rocked the place to the hill.

We paid all our musicians. We had people that weren't even Christians, but they were on tour with, like, Jackson Duffy and Justin Bieber and whatever.

So it was all about get the talent, play the lights out, and then preach sermons that are really, really cool and edgy and very, like,

Stephen Furtick style. And then, you know, that's life. And then stick them in small groups and we're like the superstar celebrity pastors.

That was a bit of the approach. But the Lord shut it down so quick. We only got that model rocking for probably, like, the first year.

And then the Lord took Tony to the mat. And that's his story to tell. You really should have him on sometimes.

He's a brilliant, brilliant and wise pastor. And he started being dealt with by the

Lord, no doubt, in prayer and in study. And so that started happening. And then my story was going on.

And so just all in all, the Lord took our church and flipped it upside down. Wow, praise

God. And I know that, well, before I forget, I just wanted, since you mentioned John MacArthur, I want to let you know that I interviewed

Phil Johnson recently. He is actually the most interviewed person ever on this program going back to 2005.

Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, grace to you. And I can't remember if he was saying this on the air or after the show was over, but Phil was raving about you.

He is just so impressed with you. And he's excited to be speaking with you on the roster at the

G3 conference. And he was really going on and on about you. So I just wanted to give you that word of encouragement.

Well, that is very, very kind. I'm humbled and an honor to really just be doing what all of these men have been doing.

That's the one thing, Chris, if I could say, and this isn't, you don't do this, many others don't, but the only thing that drives me a little nuts is when people make a big deal about me and I want to kind of shake them and say, it doesn't matter what my last name is.

I know that that's helpful. I get it. But in the end, Hinn, Arndt, Johnson, MacArthur, Smith, Carter, what have you, so many guys have been, and women, really.

There's been godly women who, in their role and in their position in the church, have done this too.

So many people have been faithful for so long. And so I'm hoping that my generation, kind of some of the younger people that don't know who

MacArthur is or Sproul or other men will realize that I'm not the first, other guys are not the first to come along.

There is a long list of faithful men. And so I'm literally riding their coattails just trying to be faithful as a pastor.

So, yeah, to hear that is humbling and I'm grateful. And at the same time, I remember what

Pastor John said to me not long ago is, we were talking and I, whenever I'm with him,

I try to pick his brain on things that will really matter. And so I asked him, you know, what do you make of all this going on?

I mean, evangelicalism is just in disarray. And he said, there is going to be a need for an entire new generation to hold their line.

And while the bullets are flying and there's turbulence all over the place, you guys are going to need to hold the line again on the same issues.

And I walk out of times like that with him and I think there's really nothing special about any of us except that we would accept the call to do what we ought to do, right?

And so that is something I'm praying for my life, for other pastors, for a whole generation of young men and women to be godly and standing out, standing for truth and holding the line.

Amen. And you are no longer with Mission Bible Church because they actually sent you to bless the folks at Redeemer Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona, to become their executive pastor of discipleship.

If you could tell us about this brand new work of yours at Redeemer Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona, and also tell us about that church.

Yes, so this church is incredible. We have been getting to know everyone for a couple of months, amazing people.

The pastor elders here, John Benzinger, he's a

TMS graduate. He is currently finishing his Doctor of Ministry in preaching from the

Masters, and he actually knows Tony, the preaching pastor from Mission Bible. So we're all pretty good buddies, and they're both in the

TMS doctoral cohort there. And so I preached here last year at a conference called

Another Gospel, and had a great time, and we bonded really well.

We hit it off. You could really tell we were all just kindred spirit guys. And so out of that, he said, hey, our church is exploding.

It was a dying church. It was called Desert View Baptist Church. They had about 90 people left, and they brought them in as an intern pastor, essentially to help and realistically have a funeral for the church, like literally.

Seriously. So Chris, that was four years ago.

Just now, so he, long story short, he just starts teaching the

Bible, and he diagnoses the church. He says, you people are dying. Like, this thing is dying. So let's kill all these extra ministries.

You're wasting time. Do that. Let's just teach the Bible and make disciples. Deal? So they're like, okay. So he starts doing that.

It starts growing, and all of a sudden, this last, they changed the name of the church to Redeemer Bible Church shortly after.

He keeps teaching the Bible. People keep coming, and this is one of the fastest -growing counties in the nation,

Maricopa County, and four years later, it went from 90 people to at Easter, there was 1 ,022 people on the campus.

Wow. Just great. And we're not doing anything. There's no funny business going on here.

John always says, the Lord has grown this thing in spite of me. He's done nothing gimmicky.

There's no fancy stuff. We don't market at all. People are just coming to hear the

Bible be taught. So that tells you how much of a famine there is out here. There's a lot of megachurches, and they're doing topical stuff, and they're just entertaining people, and there's some social justice -y types, and all that.

So people are leaving in droves, and they just want the Bible. And so it's been growing like crazy.

He says, hey, would you ever be open to coming out here? I think this area could be really receptive to your ministry, and there's a lot of Mormons out here.

They're similar to some of the things you've experienced, just different theology. This is a huge Mormon population.

I think it's one of the top ten in all of America. It was top three not long ago. And he said it would be really neat.

So I said, I'll think through it. So we just became friends. And then two more times we talked about it.

And by ShepCon of this year, the church extended a call formally and said, would you be willing to come out here?

We don't know what the future holds, but my role at Mission Bible was much more operational, administrative, and I loved that.

It was great to lead the church and support. Tony is an outstanding preacher, and he needs to be in the pulpit as much as possible, and he's godly and gifted.

And so I knew that was what that church needed long -term. And so we all met, and the elders,

John and another elder here, met with Tony. And those men decided that it would be a very wise and prudent thing for me to come serve here, take a preaching load on, handle some ministry, and then see what the

Lord has here in the valley. And so really, I didn't self -appoint. I didn't kind of strike out here to do anything extra special or like I don't have this grand scheme.

I just, these older men came, and they asked. And so all the elders were unanimous.

Both sides voted unanimously. And both churches are elder rule, so it was an elder decision.

So my wife and I, she was very joyful over the decision. She was grateful. We packed up our whole life after seven years, and we called it tears and cheers at Mission Bible.

It was tears and cheers, crying because we love those people, and we were leaving them, and then cheering because this is the goal, right?

At the church, we want to be raising up men, making disciples, and then launching them out.

And so Mission Bible Church commissioned me to come here and to serve, and so I start preaching every

Sunday night this coming Sunday, and we're going to be starting a next -gen ministry for high school, college, young adults, and so giving them the

Word and holding our line. One of the things that I love immediately about Redeemer Bible Church's website is not only do you see little kids and young people, millennials and so forth, but you see senior citizens in the videos that you're showing.

That does my heart good because so many of the seeker -sensitive type churches that are basically littering the landscape of the

United States, they don't care about senior citizens. They would rather them just go to other churches, leave, perhaps go to heaven.

They just really don't want them around. They're an annoyance. They're a roadblock to better and more exciting things in their minds, and it really has become a youth -obsessed culture in our church, and I would say even an idolatrous culture in the church where the youth are basically idols, and it's really disturbing.

So I'm so glad to see even senior citizens highlighted in the video here. Yeah, it is a really intergenerational or multigenerational church, and that's been fun.

No generation is held higher than the other. Everyone wants to learn from one another. Those are very good things, and so, yeah, it's been a joy.

I think what's been fun to watch, too, is I'm coming into a church that is being revitalized and has been revitalized in many ways, and so it's been fun to hear the stories.

Like, for example, it was fully, and I know these are things that are, nobody's bad or evil for having different models, but it was a congregational church, which can be great, and I know we've got great friends that are congregational, but they were infighting so much, and it was very unhealthy.

And so one of the ways that we've seen the Lord just do really incredible things is the people got together, and they voted to vote in elders.

Wow. And so regardless of ecclesiological positions and the differences, and there can be very healthy differences there, the people's hearts were being shaped by God's Word, and they said, for whatever reason, we don't need to be in control right now.

We're having problems. We're immature. There's a lot of fighting. You know, can some godly men lead us? And that's really a picture of what has happened here, is the

Lord has done it through His Word, and because John decided, hey,

I'm just going to teach the Bible. If you want that, great. If not, then fire me, and this church is going to die.

But either way, we might as well take our shot and just dig into the Word while we watch this thing sink.

And only the Lord, when He's building His church, can take something that was dying and bring it back to life.

Amen. And being a Reformed Baptist, I have to ask you, what is the soteriological makeup of the church?

Is it a sovereign grace -believing church, or is there a mix there? How does your church function in that regard?

That is a great question. I'll give you a story, and it'll tell you exactly where we're heading. Our doctrinal statement for a little while was open -ended on some things because the elders had voted that way, and John was patient.

And you know in revitalization, Pastor John MacArthur has said this too before, is you're not taking that thing from zero to hero in one year.

It takes time, slowly but surely. And so a funny story, a church down the street closed their doors.

They all come over to this church because it was new and had a new name change, and they heard some good things.

So 300 people come to this church. So it explodes. And John has the guts to preach.

He was heading into a series. He preaches a five -week series of five points of Calvinism.

And they were all more Arminian Baptists. And so about 20 to 30 stayed, 200 -plus bolted for the doors.

And so that, if there's ever a great story of what his strategy has been, it's very

Luke 14, when Jesus, you know, the multitudes are following him, in Luke 14, 25 through 35, and he turns and says, you know, if you don't hate your mother, your father, your brother, and even your own life, you can't be my disciple.

You know, it's like, not attractional church model. That's not going to become a book at Lifeway. It's like the opposite.

So that's what John did. And so, yeah, we would be a Calvinistic church.

And like most Calvinists who love the Lord and believe he's sovereign, we're highly evangelistic because while we are going to wholeheartedly embrace the doctrine of election and God's sovereignty in that, you know, we don't know who the elect are, so we're going to evangelize everybody.

Amen. And then trust the Lord to save. So our church is driven that way. Well, praise

God. And, by the way, if anybody listening either who live in Gilbert, Arizona, or they have friends, family, and loved ones in Gilbert, Arizona, or you're ever going to be visiting

Gilbert, Arizona, or planning to move there, the website for Redeemer Bible Church in Gilbert is

Redeemeraz .org, Redeemeraz .org, and hopefully we'll remember to announce that later on.

We're also going to have Kosti give us a summary of what he is going to be addressing at the upcoming

G3 conference. By the way, for those of you who don't know, the G3 stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

It's coming up January 16th through the 18th in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

So we're going to be going to our first break, and Kosti will do that as soon as we return, before we actually get into the heart of our topic today.

And, by the way, you're going to hear a commercial right now with my dear friend Dr. James R. White promoting the

G3 conference. And even though it was recorded very recently, it's a bit outdated because neither

James nor I knew about Kosti's move to Gilbert, Arizona. We were both under the assumption that he was still in California when he recorded this ad, so you'll see a little bit of outdated information in there when you hear

Dr. White's commercial. But don't go away. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Kosti Hinn, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with more of Kosti Hinn after these messages. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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We are now back with Kosti Hinn, nephew of notorious Word of Faith leader Benny Hinn, and he is now the

Executive Pastor of Discipleship at Redeemer Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona. In just a moment, we're going to start our discussion on 10

Practical Steps to Reach Deceived Souls in the Word of Faith Movement with the True Gospel. But before we do that, we'd like to have

Kosti just speak a moment about what he will be addressing, if he even knows yet, at the

G3 Conference in College Park, Georgia, this January 16th through the 18th.

I know that the theme is Worship Matters, but have they given you a specific title underneath that umbrella theme?

That is a great question, Chris. Listen, so everybody listening, do me a favor and email

Josh Barber. And you need to ask

Pastor Josh if Kosti is doing a breakout session or a plenary session, and then what of those, if I'm doing one or the other, do they want me to speak on?

Then I'll be, I'm ready. But my ticket, I'm ready. My calendar is blocked. My wife is going to cheer me out the door to G3.

But I have no idea, Chris, if they have me preaching in a main session or a breakout, and then what my assignment is.

Well, I am just so glad that I recommended to Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Middle Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, who is the founder of the

G3 Conference, I'm so glad that I recommended you to him years ago, several years ago, when he did not know who you were.

Now, I don't know if he remembered my recommendation and that my recommendation was actually the catalyst to your invitation.

But I do remember I was one of the first, if not the very first person, to strongly recommend he invite you to the

G3 Conference. And I remember him saying, I'm going to have to look into that. That sounds fascinating. And I'm so glad that by God's providence that somehow that kicked in his memory or even if he long forgot my recommendation that somebody else who was more important recommended you.

Well, thank you. And I know that our mutual friend,

Justin Peters, has also spoken there, so I know that he may have also recommended you to Josh.

But I just, I've got to tell our listeners, you've got to be there. In fact, I remember, you may remember this as well,

Kosti, I even said to you, hey man, you've got to share an exhibitor's booth with me at the G3 Conference.

I'll even let you put your stuff out in the banner when I'm hosting the Iron Trip and Zion Radio booth there.

But folks, you've got to attend the G3 Conference at least once if you've never been there before.

And this year especially, the lineup is so phenomenal. I'll be mentioning a more in -depth list of people speaking at the

G3 Conference. But it's on, as I said, Worship Matters. And I'm strongly urging you, not only to attend, but if you have a business or a parachurch organization or anything else that you want to promote to the body of Christ, I would strongly urge you register for an exhibitor's booth as well and do so quickly before they run out of room.

They normally get over 5 ,000 people to the G3 Conference, and this is held at the

Georgia International Convention Center, which is a huge, gigantic facility.

But this year, since John MacArthur is added to the lineup, I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people.

That's just a guess, but I think that's a very educated guess. And so therefore, I strongly urge you, if you want an exhibitor's booth, register, and hopefully you'll have one near mine.

I would love to see you near the Iron Trip and Zion Radio exhibitor's booth, and let me know that you listen to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

So go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and we'll be reminding you of that conference later.

Well, now it's time to get into 10 practical steps to reach deceived souls in the

Word of Faith movement with the true gospel. Now, one thing that might be helpful, perhaps we can even do this as a whole show next time you come on, but there's a reason you want and biblically sound

Christians want to reach souls in the Word of Faith movement.

There are many people in our ecumenically minded church today that may say, oh, come on, they're just overly enthusiastic

Christians. They're just extremely optimistic Christians about what

God will give them on this earth. There's no need to get overly upset with them.

Let them have their delusional optimism. If it makes them happy, fine.

But if it only could be that unserious, for lack of a better term, tell us why the gospel is at stake in this.

Yeah, that is a great question, Chris. Somebody recently who is inside the movement called me and wanted to dialogue because his main concern was that I was overstepping and saying that it was a different gospel.

He had lumped in the prosperity gospel and the Word of Faith movement, and his pleading with me was, you know,

Costi, I really think that you're making some great points, but we believe in the same

Jesus, the same gospel. We would just have a different application or interpretation, if you will, on passages about money and various things.

But brother, we are in this together. And so I respectfully but very firmly, over about an hour phone call, pleaded with this man that we are not preaching the same gospel.

And he asked, well, can you prove that? I said, well, first of all, how far do you want to go?

Do you want to lump in the New Apostolic Reformation because we can talk about the false Christology that they're teaching, the ontological canonic heresy, which is that Jesus was just a man in right relationship with God when he did miracles and did all that stuff.

So we can do them too. He's just kind of an example, a spirit -filled example, which is blatant heresy.

And so we went from there all the way through Word of Faith, theology, and the prosperity gospel. In the end,

I walked him through, and people can read this, there's a whole section in the book on this because the big question is, why is it heresy?

And I give 10 reasons why. And they were easy to unpack, from twisting the

Word of God to demeaning or diminishing the deity of Christ, to elevating man, to spitting on or insulting

God's nature, that he essentially is a puppet and we're the puppet master, abusing or twisting various passages to mean something they clearly don't mean

It's trampling afoot the gospel. To add anything to the gospel, all of this is clear in the

Bible. Paul in Galatians 1, 6 -12 is clear that anyone teaching another gospel is to be anathema, a curse literally laid upon them.

We're to mark people that are teaching things that are different than what we have received from Christ and what we know. Romans 16, verses 17 and 18 cover that.

I mean, over and over and over and over again. And so we begin to discuss also the lifestyle, but I could, and Chris, I know you could too, debunk this theology without ever talking about money, big houses, and Benzes and Bentleys.

You and I both know that. Wealth is not a sin. Living well is not a sin.

It's a responsibility. We know that Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy 6 that the rich are to be rich in good works.

So we know that there are people that God, in His goodness and grace, provide, and they're blessed to be a blessing.

So to be wealthy is not a sin. The love of money is the root of all evil, but to be wealthy is not a sin. So surely if we were to even just for a moment play the opposite side and go, this has nothing to do,

I don't use my uncle's, you know, eight to ten million dollar house as my theological refutation.

It's not even about the lifestyle or the money. It's about the teaching and the theology which happens to be linked to, of course, what

Peter writes in 2 Peter 2, 1 -3, in their greed they will exploit you. There is a desire and a lust for money.

Because of the love of money, they will say and do anything. But that's really what we're going for here.

We're seeing that the prosperity gospel and the word of faith movement take Christ, they lower

Him, and they elevate man, and make the gospel essentially about stuff, not about real salvation.

And all the glorious promises of the atonement are twisted. And that is Satan's game.

He's done it since the beginning when he whispered to Eve, you know, basically, did God really say?

No, He didn't really say that. Surely you will not die. Satan's been undermining

God's word since the very beginning. And he does that still today through the word of faith movement and the prosperity gospel.

And never mind, as well, bringing in the mass amount of testimonies from people who have experienced the demonic in these movements.

When you look at Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland and some of the generals in the movement, the way that people shake and the noises they make and crawling around on the ground like snakes and barking like dogs and running around on all fours or crawling around on all fours.

These are not the marks of spirit -filled, spirit -led worship. These are the marks of the demonic.

So, across the board, these movements, while some people like Osteen lean more on Oprah -style theology, you know, with a big smile and his nice suit on TV, and he doesn't do much of the weird stuff that my uncle does or Kenneth Hagin did, it's still all cut from the same cloth.

The desire is money, power, and control over people, and they're not under the control of the spirit, and they're not using

God's word faithfully. Okay, we're going to a first listener question.

We have Luke in Cedar Hill, Texas. Luke says, Over a decade ago,

Henry Hinn visited my Bible school, Christ for the Nations Institute, unannounced, and was given the morning chapel time since the

Hinn family gave money to the school and probably offered prophetic oversight.

It was a scandal because Henry was very disrespectful and foul in his speech to some of the elderly teachers.

He went on and on telling the gritty details about working for the ministry.

He even picked up one of the 70 -year -old administrators in a bear hug.

He wouldn't give up the mic, so they canceled class and allowed him to have the entire morning in his talking to the students.

The next day, the staff of the school apologized for subjecting the students to Henry's antics.

We were never told why Henry was allowed to do this and what the family thought about Henry.

Does Kosti know anything about this story, or is this regular practice for the family members to go off on their own like this?

All right, so Luke, thank you. Here, I don't know if Luke is aware, Henry is my dad.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! Okay.

You don't want to go any further? No, I'm fine. I just want to let that settle in on everyone right now.

Okay. You know, Henry is my dad, and yes, that was the mark of his ministry, shock and awe, kind of go in and let it fly as well.

The reality is, whether it's my dad or any other uncle's, the arrogance and the control and I would even add in there some of the charisma, you know, the ability to woo the crowd, all of that is the

Hinn family package, or it was kind of what we banked on. And behind all of it, why you have brazen arrogance, why you have all that charisma and what we would probably call, you know, swag or confidence now, like who do these guys think they are?

It all comes from, yeah, what Luke said, the back end. Behind the scenes, on the back end, like when you talk computers, you know, we talk about the back end of an app.

The nuts and bolts of it all is money. Our family did and does give a lot of money to some of these organizations.

And then the other thing is the name. Just being a Hinn, a lot of people would just roll out the red carpet and let you in in the charismatic world.

You know, that is something that they did and we did. And so, yeah, that is not an unfamiliar story to me.

I'm aware of that. And I went to school at Dallas Baptist University, not far from Christ for the

Nations in Dallas. And there were people who had known others who had been there and dealt with my dad or others.

So, yeah, that's that. I will tell you this. Interesting. My dad and I, more and more, have had dialogue continuously to where even just last week we talked again.

And we talk very openly now. He has been honest about things that he did. He doesn't really hide much of what was.

And so that has helped our dialogue a lot to where he doesn't fight me on things.

Because he will literally say that my uncle is a false teacher and that the things that they said were false.

So somebody actually texted me the other day and came up to me at church on Sunday. I got multiple messages. Because he posted,

I guess he responded to something on my Instagram about the book, the recent book, God's Greed and the Prosperity Gospel.

And said something like, Amen, my son. Love you and proud of you.

Keep preaching the true gospel. I was blind as well. Like just really, really open stuff.

So I would say two things on that. Number one, we want to be sure any time, and this is not skeptical.

I love my family. Believe me. If anyone repents, I'm all in. I love it. We all would be the same way.

But I'm not just going to say, Oh yeah, everything's fine. Just because he may affirm that what

I'm saying is true. What I pray for and what I dialogue with my father over is the fruits of true repentance.

What real repentance looks like. Not just remorse. Not just being proud of me or glad that your son is doing something faithful or significant, whatever.

In the end, I dialogue with my father about his own soul, his own state in ministry, and what he is saying and what he is thinking and his own repentance.

And so I would say he's come a bit over from that story,

Luke, but at the same time, no one needs to throw a victory parade until there's open repentance and a complete transformation of life.

Amen. And by the way, I'm not so sure I would be so objecting to giving somebody a bear hug unless it was against their will.

So Chris, full disclosure, I know what my dad was doing when he did that.

And what my dad used to love to do is go into these academic circles or anywhere where there were dignified teachers and people that were well -educated.

And my dad had no education, and so he used to love to boast and say, you know,

I didn't have a seminary degree. I didn't go to Bible school. The Holy Spirit was my teacher.

You know, Paul said, I don't come to you with words. I come to you with power and demonstration. And I come today with power.

You know, that was my dad's kind of M .O. And so he used to love to, and maybe there's like a small bit of this that everybody would like to do sometimes when the academics get a little too big for their britches.

But in this way, it wasn't right that my dad did it. He would go in, and he liked to ruffle the feathers of academics and get under their skin.

And that's not good, and that's not tolerable. But to shed more light,

I mean, he wasn't like, hey, I love you, brother. Give him a bear hug. He was probably ruffling their feathers trying to get under their skin.

By the way, I have a challenge for everybody listening. The next time any of you see Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries at a speaking engagement, I want you to give him a bear hug and then report back to me what his reaction was.

James is from a very stoic, Scottish, unemotional background, and he feels very uncomfortable, especially when strangers give him bear hugs.

Although he has given me, on a couple of rare occasions, during very sad moments in my life, a bear hug.

But I can remember Peter Jeffery, who is now in heaven, who is from Port Talbot, or was from Port Talbot, Wales.

Peter Jeffery. By the way, Costi, I strongly recommend you read anything that you can find written by Peter Jeffery.

He was a Calvinistic Baptist pastor in Wales. In fact, he pastored

Sanfields, which was the first church pastored by Martin Lloyd -Jones. But I remember when

I used to give Peter Jeffery a hug, he looked like he was terrified, like some escaped criminal had just grabbed ahold of him.

But we have to go to our midway break right now. Oh, by the way, Luke, I forgot to tell you, you have just won a free copy of the book

Defining Deception by my guest Costi Hinn and his co -author

Anthony Wood. And this is compliments of our friends at SCS Press, Southern California Seminary Press.

So please make sure we have your full mailing address there in Texas so that CVBBS, our sponsor,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that free copy of Defining Deception out to you.

We're going to our midway break right now. And this is a longer than normal break. And that's because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because they have to, by FCC regulations, air public service announcements that localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So while they air their own public service announcements and commercials, we air our commercials that are heard globally.

So please use this time wisely and write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, which will further ensure a longer life for Iron Trip and Zion Radio because, as I said before, we rely, we depend upon our advertisers' dollars, their financial support, in order to survive.

So please try to patronize the advertisers as much as you can, even if you just contact them and thank them for sponsoring this show.

That would be a big help for us. But also, please patronize them. And also, write down questions for Kosti Hinn at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away,

God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with more of Kosti Hinn. Got to tell you, for my money,

Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best. Iron.

Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace To You, inviting everybody to come to the

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight to me.

So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnson's laugh.

And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me, g3conference .com.

G3conference .com. And now there's even more exciting news. John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the

G3 Conference, Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th, 2020.

Go to g3conference .com. G3conference .com. See you there! James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Bonifuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, host of A Visit to the

Pastors Study, and I am so thankful to be part of the advertising family right here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you live on Long Island or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The Haven on Sundays at 4 .30

p .m. We meet at the Ascension Lutheran Church facility, 33 Bayshore Road in Deer Park, New York.

At The Haven you'll find God's saturated singing, Gospel -rich ministry, and Great Commission opportunities.

Learn more about us at thehavenli .com and join us this Sunday at 4 .30

p .m. 33 Bayshore Road, Deer Park. One sure way all

Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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And don't forget you can also call cvbbs .com at their toll -free number Monday through Friday between 10 a .m.

and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time only. That's 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231. Always mention that you heard about cvbbs .com

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are going to return to our discussion with Kosti Hinn in a moment, but we just have a few upcoming events that we want you to attend if at all possible.

The first is coming up on September 7th. That's Saturday, September 7th, 6 .30 p .m.

at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. That is when my friend

Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church will be debating Roman Catholic apologist

Matthew Luke Broderick. On the theme is the office of Pope Biblical. If you'd like to attend that debate on Saturday, September 7th, 6 .30

p .m. at Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, go to wotchurch .com,

wotchurch .com, or call them at 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

Then, if you are a man in ministry leadership and you want to join me in Manhattan during the heart of the

Christmas season, and there's no better place to be during the Christmas season than New York City, as far as I'm concerned, then please join me at the

Foundations Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com. That's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, in New York City.

The speakers are always excellent, and this December is no exception. Dr. Stephen J.

Lawson is on the lineup, Paul Washer, Rev. Jeff Thomas, Rev. Orman Tomasian, Richard Caldwell, Jr.,

and Andrew Quigley. If you would like to join me there, Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, in Manhattan for the

Foundations Conference, if you are a man in ministry leadership, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com. Then, as we have been mentioning throughout this program, and as you have heard advertised by Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, and also

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, the G3 Conference is coming up. That is

Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th, 2020, in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, at the

Georgia International Convention Center. I'm packing up my bags and heading down south to man my exhibitors booth there again.

It has always proved to be a very beneficial experience to man an exhibitors booth at the

G3 Conference. The conference lineup, as always, is absolutely breathtaking.

They always have an extremely long lineup, and the lineup is not just quantitatively excellent, it is qualitatively excellent.

The roster, I should say, includes our guest, Kosti Hinn, also

Derek Thomas, who is a world -renowned Reformed writer and preacher and teacher, my friend,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who has been a close friend of mine since the 1990s,

Dr. Joel Beeky of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Once again, we have Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer on the lineup at this conference. Stephen J.

Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, my friend,

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, my friend, Dr. Tom Askell, the executive director of Founders Ministries, the

Calvinistic ministry and the Southern Baptist Convention. Vody Baucom, who is one of the most extraordinary preachers alive in the 21st century.

Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

And, as you have heard, John MacArthur himself has been added to the lineup at the

G3 conference. Again, that is Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, 2020.

If you want to register to attend and also register for an exhibitor's booth, if that is something that would be appropriate for you, if you have a business or a parachurch ministry or an event or whatever it is that you want to promote to the body of Christ, go to G3conference .com

G3conference .com and remember that this January's conference is on the theme that worship matters.

And finally, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to www .ironsharpensironradio

.com, click support, then click, click to donate. Now you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that.

You can also mail in a check the old -fashioned way to the address that appears on the screen when you click support at www .ironsharpensironradio

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Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Those two things are commands of God, providing for church and home.

Providing for my radio show is not a command of God. But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you love the show, and you don't want it to go away, please help us.

We're in urgent need of your financial support. Please go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate.

Now and donate instantly or mail in a check. If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. As long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what I believe,

I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we really do need the advertising dollars desperately. You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is compatible with what

I believe. If you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God.

So please, if you need my help to find a church wherever you live, anywhere in the world, because I have lists of biblically faithful churches globally, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line, whether it is a church that you need to join locally where you live, whether it's a church you want to visit while you're on vacation, or a church for family, friends, and loved ones that live in different parts of the world.

Send me that email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question for Kosti Hinn at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com Kosti, if you could, give us the first practical method that you recommend to reach those trapped in the

Word of Faith movement and draw them out of there by God's mercy and grace. Yeah, the first thing

I would say is we need to pray, and that sounds like a very boxed answer, but we need to be real careful whenever we say, well, yeah,

I know, pray, but really give me the real answer. Prayer is often something that we neglect when it comes to people that are caught up in deception.

Maybe other people don't, but I know I do, and I have and did early on.

I certainly would wield the truth. I would tell my family and friends what the

Bible said. I would refute the errors that were being taught by them and others. But admittedly,

I wasn't as always as strong as I should have been in prayer. I like what

Spurgeon said. He said, prayer is doubt's destroyer, a rune's remedy, and the antidote to all anxieties.

And so when I think of prayer and reaching people, the two have to go hand -in -hand.

Whenever I've prayed for family or friends, it's really hard to hate them, and it's hard to have animosity towards them.

I find when I'm praying and begging the God who is the Alpha and the Omega, the

Beginning and the End, the Author of Salvation, for their salvation, that it softens my heart not towards what they teach, but towards them as individuals, and that I'm able to see them not as an opponent to be defeated or a person to be slammed, but I see them as a soul that is in need of salvation.

And so I would say that everything starts with prayer. Amen. And second method that you suggest?

Yeah, I would move from prayer to studying the truth. If you're going to combat false teaching and reach people, you need to be able to convey the truth to them.

That doesn't mean that everyone needs a degree from a seminary, or to have memorized all of Romans 8 and be able to explain things at an academic level, but it does mean that if you're going to wield the power of the

Gospel, you better know the Gospel yourself. And a lot of people are good at saying, you know, so -and -so said, or so -and -so said, but we need to be able to know what the

Bible actually says and what it means, and when it comes to studying the truth and knowing the truth, that means it's going to take some time.

And I don't know if that is something everybody's comfortable with, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't tell anyone the truth.

You should just wait. But we should see some sort of gap where maturity sets in and where knowledge sets in before we set off to go and reach everyone.

This is one of the things I'll recommend to people when they first have their eyes open to the truth, and they say, well, what do

I do? I've got friends caught up in this, but I don't know how to explain it all. I say, well, one of the ways you can be a witness is to invite them to your church or say, hey, this is something that I think we should go to together.

There are some things that were said or being taught by our pastor that have made me think, maybe you'd want to come with me.

And so until we are able to study and know for ourselves to convey truth, that shouldn't stop us.

But no way should we be striking out to be proclaimers of anything unless we know what we're talking about.

Now, that's an interesting statement because you might have people wrongly thinking that your average believer, perhaps even a fairly new believer, should never be an ambassador or a witness for Christ in their home and in their workplace, obviously, during appropriate time when people have the freedom to interact.

And I'm not talking about employees robbing people of their robbing their employees of their time.

But every Christian with whatever knowledge that they have,

I'm not saying as you were, I think, suggesting that they should be with ignorance, with a lot of zeal and lacking in wisdom, become these missionaries out to the areas surrounding them and getting up in a stump and shouting out what they believe the truth to be because very often they are making fools out of themselves.

They are not yet ready. They're not ready, equipped to be accurate in what they are saying.

So doesn't every Christian, even if they are young, don't they need to come home and tell their spouses, their children, their co -workers, their neighbors,

I have discovered Jesus Christ, His Gospel of Grace. He has set me free from the sin that enslaved me, the sin that was sending me to hell.

I just can't keep myself quiet. I just love this Lord and I hope that you come to discover

Him and love Him too. Absolutely. So yeah, none of what I'm saying is meant to dampen the passion and drive for anybody's evangelism.

The newest Christian should be right away proclaiming what Christ has done, their love and allegiance to Him, and sharing the truth with others.

What I'm more referring to is when... I'll use a personal illustration.

Early on, I was very emotional and I was frustrated and I wanted...

I realized that what I believed was false and I went right after my family and began to say, your false teachers, you guys are wolves, you were wrong, you need to repent, and in the end,

I conveyed a lot of aggressive imperatives, and to be honest, all of them were accurate and true.

But I did not know how to at least winsomely or even closely articulate what or why.

And so I'm not suggesting that people not share the truth, but in the end if someone says, you've got to follow

Jesus, you know, your life is purposeless, what are you doing, Mom? And they say, well, why do

I need to follow Jesus? The person can't say, well, I don't know, but I walked the aisle,

I prayed a prayer, and I know what I felt, so you should feel it, too. That's not good enough. You need to be able to say, well, you're a sinner, and I was lost, and I was a sinner, but I repented of my sin, and I turned to Christ, and I know it like I'm talking to you right now.

I'm saved, Mom. I'm different. My whole mind has changed. I want that for you, too.

That is what I'm referring to. Vetted understanding, not big words and big theology, but clear truth, and not just being emotional and going off like a cannon.

And nobody should ever pretend to know more than they do. There's nothing wrong with saying, if somebody has a question for you, can you please perhaps come over my house and meet with my pastor, or can you visit my congregation one day during a worship service, because I don't have those answers right now.

All's I know is that the Lord saved me. I've got a handful of facts that I know, but I'm not a theologian.

I can't really answer that question that you've asked right now, so please, just be patient with me. Help me find somebody that will address that.

Yes, and amen. Amen. And if you could, give us your next step.

Yeah. I would tag on to studying the truth, and this one bleeds into this one. Deal with heart issues.

If there are things in your heart, seeds of bitterness, frustration with people who have led you astray, or even people that are lost,

I know this can happen to new believers when we come out of the Word of Faith movement and we're really angry, because we've been mistaught and we've been led astray.

Oftentimes, that emotion and frustration is not going to help us better convey the truth.

So, we need to deal with heart issues. I offered that to people in the book because I remember a season where I got into biblical counseling, and there were older, wiser people that came around me, and they were pointing out blind spots and areas of frustration or pride or just things in my life that needed to be dealt with, and so I would say that this can be a struggle for a lot of Christians who are newly saved, and they go out and become some spokesperson for something.

This could have easily happened to me, where people want me to speak on an issue, or they want others to speak on the issue, and in the end, we lack maturity.

And so, dealing with heart issues, why do you want to confront false teaching? Why do you want to call something out?

Are you finding your motive rooted in Scripture, a love for souls?

Are you doing it with, as one pastor told me, to preach these things with wet eyes? Are you doing it through tears?

Do you really see the person as a soul, or are you just trying to win the argument? Are you angry?

And so this is a payback attempt. Do you have an ax to grind? These are things that I had to ask myself and others asked of me before saying anything publicly, and so I really want people, just pastorally, to be encouraged to deal with heart issues, and before you do something or say something that you don't really mean in the moment, deal with those things.

I would add one more thing to that, which is essentially making sure that we're managing ourselves and being managed by wise people during cage stage.

You've heard of cage stage, right? Yes, especially in regard to we who are Calvinists, and very often you have somebody, just as we were saying earlier, who has a lot of zeal and passion and perhaps even anger, perhaps they've been deceived so long in false religion that they want to get out there and they want to challenge and tear to shreds everybody who believes in false teaching, but they do so without wisdom and very often without knowledge, and I've found, perhaps you have as well, sometimes people in cage stage

Calvinism, they wind up ignoring certain parts of the

Bible. They might not even know they're there because they're so new in the faith because they sound isolated and taken out of context like Arminian texts.

I remember somebody in cage stage Calvinism who was furious that he was hearing during a sermon at my church.

My pastor at the time say, choose this day whom you may serve, and he was like what is this guy talking about choosing?

I'm like, that's a Bible text. He was quoting the Bible. But anyway, if you could, continue on that.

Yes, that is, I don't even need to say anything more. That is one of the best illustrations I could ever think of where you know, that's great,

Chris. Bottom line, you know, cage stage, you come into contact with the doctrines of grace, you realize these truths, they're ironclad.

It's like the more you read the Bible, the more you go, oh my goodness, it's all there. This is so clear. And I remember sitting down with my parents and I unloaded on them.

And it was a cage stage moment. And I realized at that moment that I had a lot of zeal and not a lot of maturity.

And I had some hard issues to deal with. I really needed to mature and grow and then be able to have calm, confident dialogue knowing that I had the truth, they don't, and I can walk with them, hoping to lead them to that end.

Yeah, another thing is seek a private audience. Certainly, there are opportunities to dialogue with people on Twitter and on Facebook.

There are many opportunities today with conferences and the way that things are and evangelicalism to engage people in all sorts of forums.

But with family and friends, one of the ways that I think we go wrong is by sending really long text messages and debating with people via text and things get very emotional, even via email, and suddenly things are getting misinterpreted and we don't hear tone when we're texting.

So, seeking a private audience can be something that's very healthy. We see the person's demeanor. We see them as a person.

We have to make the effort to go and meet with them. Opening that meeting with prayer. I don't know about you, but I've never in my life heard of a situation where somebody opens their text message debate with a word of prayer.

Often, it's just unloading. And so, a private audience can help that. I've seen that work in my own life.

Talking, dialoguing, creating the space. If we're going to reach people, I'm not saying that you're going to find me out for a steak dinner with Uncle Benny or grabbing around a golf with him like it's all fine.

If we were to meet privately now, there's going to be some words that are exchanged. But in general, meeting with people privately for the purpose of trying to rescue their soul is another great thing that we should do.

And then, in that, I would ask lots of questions. Again, this is something

I failed at early on, but I would just firehose my family and friends, not realizing that I could get so much further by at least understanding them.

That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I might say something like, you know, Mom, you like Joyce Meyer, right?

And she may say, yeah, I like Joyce Meyer. And I might say, well, what are your thoughts on her $25 ,000 gold toilet seat?

What is that? Like, why would someone do that? Or what justification is there for that?

And my mom might laugh and say, well, I don't care what a toilet looks like, you know, she's serving the Lord. And I might veer that into, well, that, you know, that's an interesting statement.

I get that. She's serving the Lord. That's your perception, and you think that. What are your responses to, you know, her teaching

Word of Faith theology, like that, if you just say it, you can have it. Has that worked for you?

Like, in every way, you can just say things, and you can have it. And so asking questions like that is ways that you can help people tap into their logic.

And their emotions are not getting in the way. Their anger and frustration is down.

Their defensiveness goes down, and you can actually reach them. And of course, all of this, as we go through this, does not at all supersede the sovereignty of God.

But I would say, and I think, Chris, you'd probably agree, as Calvinists, we even know this, sometimes we don't help ourselves, and God is going to save people.

We know that. He's going to do what He's going to do, and He's going to use somebody. If I'm angry, and I'm not calculated, and I don't go after people to reach them, that's not going to stop

God. He's going to save His sheep, but He's going to use somebody else, perhaps, as a means to His end.

And so, it's important that we be good question -askers. And then, another one is to speak the truth in love.

This is something that we need to do in hard conversations. That means we need to be truthful, accurate, fair, patient, gentle, humble, and consistent.

And something that Justin Peters does so well. I've seen him do it. He is tender.

He's soft -spoken. But, man, is he ever a lion. He's not going to compromise at all.

But, when he does, when he talks, he's winsome, and he's gentle, and he's trying.

You can really see that he's trying to save people. Amen. And we have a listener,

John in Bangor, Maine, who says, do you not think that when discovering the heresies of the

Word of Faith movement, we not go to the other extreme and behave like some

Christians do? One man in particular that comes to mind who's not a Word of Faith teacher at all, but who

I think teaches things that are to the opposite extreme, that man is Tony Campolo, who tries to lay a guilt trip on Christians if they own, for instance, a

Rolls Royce or a very expensive car. Can't we be very cautious about judging another brother or sister as to why they may own such a vehicle or other item or house?

Perhaps these things were given to them, or perhaps they are purchasing them because of research they've done on the most reliable vehicle.

You could go on and on and on. And also to think about how scared you might be if your lawyer or brain surgeon were to drive up into the parking lot in a run -down vehicle.

You might want to change your lawyer or doctor. I think that there is some truth, or a lot of truth, in that statement or question.

Yeah, I agree. That is a very good question. There is an equal evil to the prosperity gospel, and it is the poverty gospel, the idea that you're more spiritual if you are poor.

And while certainly money can be a great distraction, there are many people who are wealthy in this world who love the

Lord and are gospel patrons. And they're supporters of the gospel. And they aren't living lavishly to build their own empire.

They are focused on using their resources to resource kingdom work. So to that question

I would say a hearty amen. There is a serious danger in swinging the other way. On that note, again, on wealth,

I'll say it again, wealth is not a sin, it's a responsibility. And a clear, clear call for every

Christian is to be generous, and to be serving, and to be submitting to church leaders and God's Word, and to be taking the gospel wherever they can.

And I cannot find for the life of me a single verse in the Bible that would indict a person who has means from driving a nice car, or a reliable vehicle.

I can't. I can't find a verse that says that men can't go enjoy a nice day on the golf course.

I can't find a verse that says that a woman can't go and get her hair done, and she has to look like she has just gotten out of bed every day and wear clothes that are raggedy.

There are people that are in poverty. And no doubt, the church is negating its responsibility when we do not care for the poor.

One hundred percent. But to say that everybody has to be poor, and wealthy people can't enjoy something nice, or even people that are just hard -working, working -class individuals, who save their money, they buy a home, and they pay their mortgage, and they're not wealthy, but they've worked hard, and the

Lord has provided through their hard work. I can't find any verses in the Bible that say that that's wrong at all.

What I do think is there's wisdom that needs to be used. Pastors, especially, as an example to the flock, should be very careful, and diligent, and prudent.

And so, I think a great thing that one of my pastor friends once said to me is, just because you have it, doesn't mean that you need to go spend it.

And, you know, that is something that's great. You know, you can give that money away. You can help somebody.

You can, you know, help your child with their education. There's a lot of things that we use money for.

And so, the poverty gospel is a slippery, slippery slope as well.

And John and BangerMaine, give us your full mailing address, because you have also won a free copy of the book that we have been giving away,

Defining Deception, by Kosti Hinn and Anthony Wood. Compliments of our friends at Southern California Seminary Press, SCS Press.

And so, please make sure you get that address to us as soon as possible, so that CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that book out to you.

We're going to our final break right now. It'll be much more brief than the last one, but please send in your question immediately before we run out of time.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Send an email quickly, immediately if you have one to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

And we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who says, shouldn't we be very careful about not broad brushing people who have some affiliation with the

Word of Faith movement but may indeed be our brothers in Christ nonetheless? I am not saying that we should allow them to wallow in that heresy and that we should do all we can to draw them further away and completely out of that heresy but shouldn't we be careful about not lumping them all together as damned?

Yes, I agree. We should be very careful. In both of the books that I've written or co -authored,

I believe that we have done a good job being careful of that. We consulted different even

Assembly of God pastors and leaders who affirmed what we had written as fair and not a broad brush.

While we might advocate for a cessationist position and or non -normative operation of certain gifts, none of the things that I've written or have co -authored with would advocate for saying anybody who is open but cautious continuationist or general continuationist or even a

Pentecostal is a heretic and is hellbound and not saved. There are going to be believers who love the

Lord and are preaching the true gospel who want to their old school Pentecostals where they want to babble in their prayer closet and that's their prerogative.

They want to do that, but we align with everything else. I'll be honest. My mother is one of them right now.

I talk with my mother and she says it's her private prayer language and she speaks in her tongues and meanwhile we agree on everything else now.

We talk. She cries over the gospel. She agrees and affirms the truth. She wants nothing to do with the life she used to live.

And yet, she holds on to the prayer language thing. So, one step at a time in my mind, but careful with broad brushing.

Alright CJ, give us your address and you will get in the mail from CVBBS .com

Defining Deception by Kosti Hinn and Anthony Wood. Compliments of our friends at Southern California Seminary Press.

That's SCS Press. Thank you so much SCS Press and Dominique especially at SCS Press for providing these free books that we have been giving away.

Please give us some more steps before we run out of time, Kosti. Chris, I'm sorry.

You broke up there. Oh, I was asking you to give us a couple more steps that you might have. Yes, absolutely.

Besides seeking a private audience which is where we left off and speaking the truth and love, I would say something that I stole, okay?

I stole this from John McArthur. I hung out one time with somebody who is close to him and I said, how in the world does

Pastor John sit on a stage with R .C. Sproul and they disagree on baptism and they disagree on eschatology?

I mean, these are big, even if someone might say they're non -essential, these are a big deal in the local church.

Yes. I want to know from McArthur how that works in his mind because he is dogmatic.

And this individual said, oh yeah, that's easy. He has always said to me, and this person was saying verbatim what

Pastor John has always said, never personalize disagreement. And I thought, man, that's good.

That is really wise. Don't personalize disagreement would be another step. If you're going to win people and reach them in this movement, trusting the

Lord certainly to work in their heart is essential, and not personalizing the disagreement.

If they're scoffing at what you're saying, it's not your words, it's God's words. If they're scoffing at the gospel or if they don't agree with you, they're actually not disagreeing with you, they're disagreeing with the

Word of God if you're speaking the truth. And it's important to very much so not see yourself as the offended party.

God is the one that they will answer to, and that helps us see them as a soul that we need to reach, somebody who needs our love and care in what we say, but never personalizing the disagreement as though they've done something to us.

They have certainly brought reproach upon the Lord, and we can take an offense to that in regard to not wanting to be silent, but we want to be careful to not personalize everything.

Another couple, Chris, would be, you know, leave the door open. I'm glad that my family that I now dialogue in a healthy way with didn't hold the past against me when

I uploaded on them early on, because very easily I could have lost an opportunity for this, but leaving the door open for conversation, we want to say, you know, if you don't change,

I'm cutting you out of my life. If you don't stop praying for the gift of tongues, you know, we can't be friends anymore.

Those are big statements that in the end, if we're not careful, we could be cutting people out and cutting people down who are an opportunity for evangelism, and the reality is, it doesn't mean that we're letting them in our home to, you know, teach a

Bible study to our kids, but we don't need to be cutting everybody off left and right because they may believe something different.

Now, in the Word of Faith movement, you want to be very careful, because there's some dangerous things that people can say and teach, and so even with my own family,

I'm very careful, and yet the door is open for conversation that is purposeful and bathed in truth.

The last two would be provide resources for them. When you make it through some great conversations and you remember your own journey sitting up late at night, if you're like me, watching

YouTube, and it's like Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, R .C. Sproul, John MacArthur, and you're like, who in the world are these guys?

Has this been around the whole time? Like, what in the world? And you're watching and the truth is beginning to penetrate your heart.

Those are great moments that we need to remember because other people need the same thing. I remember when somebody gave me a bunch of books and they were very helpful to me.

Providing resources is a way that we can give people the truth and ensure that they're not in short supply.

And then finally, never give up. No matter how dark the day seems or how lost people seem in these movements, believers are never once called to give up on people.

Even the words that Jude writes between verses 17 and 23 in his short epistle, there's no out cause.

Even if you are to, you know, hate the garment polluted by the flesh and put some healthy distance between you and other people, we are never to give up.

I'm always praying, right? You always want to be praying. We always want to be reaching people and thinking of them and weeping over their soul, knowing that at any given time, just like we were lost and we were the such were some of you,

God can and will continuously save people. And so, if we can help it,

I know you probably want this. I do as well. Let's be the first phone call somebody makes when the

Lord opens their eyes by His sovereign power. Amen. And we have one more question we'll squeeze in from Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

He wants to know, Kosti, do you agree with the assessment of the world renowned

Reformed Baptist pastor in Africa, Zambia to be specific,

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, that one of the reasons that the Word of Faith movement has caught on in Africa is that there is little to distinguish it from the pagan and idolatrous religions of the witch doctors in Africa.

I agree wholeheartedly with Pastor Conrad, and have had the privilege of talking with him and sitting with him and ministering with him in the past year.

And what he has said is something that everyone should take to heart.

It is 100 % aligned with that. The way that I would illustrate that is, just look at a phrase in Jesus' name for Word of Faith or Prosperity Gospel proponents.

In Jesus' name is like abracadabra, right? It's a magic phrase that unlocks some mystical thing that God is doing.

It's a superstitious chant, unfortunately. It's been turned into that.

Meanwhile, to pray in Jesus' name is to pray in accordance with the will of, aligned with the nature of who

He is, and so you can pray in Jesus' name for Bentleys all you want, but Jesus never said you'd get Bentleys.

The reality is, praying in Jesus' name is a very serious and weighty and clear thing in the

Bible based on His nature and His will. And what many have done in these pagan religions and in the cults that are the

Word of Faith movement propagators in their churches, very cult -like, they have turned a lot of these phrases into mystical and superstitious things that pagans in these other countries and places around the world certainly relate to.

Well, thank you, Arnie. Please give us your email address and we'll have cvbbs .com ship out a free copy of the book that we have been giving away,

Defining Deception by Kosti Hinn and Andrew Wood. I want to thank you so much, Kosti, for being my guest again on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

If you wouldn't mind holding on, I'd like to say a proper goodbye to you off the air. I want to remind our listeners of the website of the church where you now serve on the pastoral team.

That is RedeemerAZ .org RedeemerAZ .org Redeemer Bible Church of Gilbert, Arizona.

Don't forget about the G3 Conference where Kosti will be speaking along with many other prominent figures in the church.

That's g3conference .com g3conference .com Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th,

I will be there as well with an exhibitor's booth. I want to thank all of you who listened today, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater