Refuting Steven Slanderson & Reviewing Brother Macarthur & Shapiro

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I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

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Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. It's the same idea. It's the same end.

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I would say what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust? In the cosmic picture, none.

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There's no problem. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.

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President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

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I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.

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He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion.

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It is a command. Holder, don't you sympathize with that?

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I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

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The threshold of an amazing adventure. We will explore the spiritual abyss.

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You have not experienced this before. Behold my servant whom

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I uphold, my chosen in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him.

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He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street.

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A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth justice.

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He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his law.

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What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. That's my king.

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That's my king. Thank you for the chilled atmosphere and mood here.

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Might have a little bit to do with my still recovering from a very unexpected health situation, a seizure, actually just one day over two weeks ago, two

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Tuesdays ago. So thank you all for your prayers. Thank you all for your concern for me and for my family.

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Grateful for all of the wonderful warm messages and all that you guys have done to just bless us.

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We're very encouraged by that. I'm Pastor Jeff. They call me the Ninja. This is Apologia Radio. You can get more at ApologiaStudios .com.

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Over there, that's the bear, Luke Pearson. What is up? Luke the Pearson. I believe you may have unofficially changed your name to Kung Fu Master.

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Yes. Why is that? Do you want me to tell the story? Yes, please tell the story. So after Jeff had a seizure, he was kind of drugged for a little while.

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Yeah. Because he was trying to fight the paramedics. True story. They gave him a tranquilizer.

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What happens is when you have a seizure. I've never had a seizure. I have no history of seizures in my family. I'm still trying to get to the root cause of this.

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But it was a total medical thing. And what happened is I guess when you have a seizure, everyone knows this, you lose.

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You lose everything in terms of it takes a minute for your brain to sort of get back again.

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You don't really know where you're at. You don't know who you are. Everything sort of disappears. It's across the board.

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With epileptic seizures, you lose everything.

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And so when I came out of the seizure, I have no recollection of anything. And I didn't know what was going on, who

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I was. So when the paramedics apparently were putting me on the gurney and trying to get me to the hospital, I had a bunch of men holding me down to put me on this thing.

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And I suppose just by reflex, they were trying to put my wrist down. And I was escaping from there.

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There were eight firemen trying to get me down on this gurney. And all I was doing, Pastor Zach said all

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I was doing is when they would grab my arm, I would just get out of there. They'd grab my arm, I would just get out of it. They would buckle me up, and I would just unbuckle.

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Then they'd grab my arm and undo it. Zach asked me last night, he's like, Hey man, is there a martial arts move like this?

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I was like, yeah, what do you mean? He's like, one of the firemen kept trying to get you in and calm you down, and he was grabbing your wrist, and you would just get out and do this.

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He's like, it was really crazy. He was just doing all these martial arts blocks and everything. Okay, so that's what happened.

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So at the hospital, as he was coming out of the tranquilizer, he was very confused.

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He was asking, where am I? What's happening? How did I get here? So I was in there with Candy, Jeff's wife, and we were trying to explain to him, paramedics were trying to strap you down, you were fighting.

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And you're like, wait, what? I was fighting? And I think he said, did I curse at them?

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And Candy said no, and you're like, oh good. And then you're like, well, you need to make sure they know that that wasn't me. And Candy's like,

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I think they know that that wasn't you. And then you were just laying in bed for a minute, and you're just like, wait, how many guys were there fighting?

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And Candy's like, I don't know, it was like eight guys maybe? And you're like, Kung Fu Master. Wow. Apparently I was very proud of myself.

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You were very proud of yourself. This is actually funny, I'm fine with everybody knowing this.

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I have lots of stories. Yeah, there's lots of stories that night. Like I said, this is all new to me, because I've never had a seizure before.

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And apparently nothing's wrong with me, and doctors can't figure it out. They said stress and overworking, or it could be anything.

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So they said, you're in perfect good health, everything's fine, nothing's wrong with you. It was definitely a seizure, an epileptic seizure, and just got to be careful.

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And what happened was, when Luke was telling me all that took place, I guess when they were getting me, and they were like, okay, we got to calm him down, he doesn't know what's going on.

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They hit me with ketamine, which is a tranquilizer. But I know from back in my high school days, when there was like raves, and all that stuff, everybody knew about Special K.

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Now I'd never done it. It's a cereal? No, Special K is ketamine. And everybody knew that it used to be an animal tranquilizer.

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We talked about it in terms of, that's a cat tranquilizer. That's what everyone says, cat tranquilizer. Special K is cat tranquilizer.

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I had a friend in school who's a drug dealer, and he sold Special K, and he said it was a cat tranquilizer, and it's awesome.

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Never did it, but that's how I knew. Ketamine is a cat tranquilizer. So please. So as, again, he's coming to, he's kind of realizing where he's at and stuff, and he asks the doctor, what did you guys give me?

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The doctor's like, we gave you ketamine. You're like, what? Why'd you give me a cat tranquilizer? How much of that did you give me?

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Meow. You made the noise? I made the noise. And Kenny and I started crying and laughing, and the doctor was just standing there like.

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You know he wanted to cry and laugh, too. He just couldn't bring himself to. Oh, man. So yeah, it was a very interesting experience.

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I'm still getting my bearings and everything else. Again, this has never happened to me in my life. I've never had any family members that have had a seizure, but the test of my blood, did

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CAT scan and everything. They said you definitely had an epileptic seizure. There's evidence in your blood. That's what it was.

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So they just said we don't know what the onset of this was, but you need to be cautious and careful. But I'm back.

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I'm getting rebalanced every day, feeling better and better every day. Grateful to Apologia Church for all of your love and care for your pastor, and of course for all of you internationally who sent out wonderful words of encouragement.

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We're very, very grateful. So that is Zach Conover. What's up? He is the director of communications for End Abortion Now.

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Yes, sir. And over here, as you all noticed, yes, we have the wonderful Marcus Pittman in the studio with us now.

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The ginger beard man. King Ginger is back. The king returns. I'm back.

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Somebody asked about the symbol on the wall. You want to answer that? I love this YouTube comment.

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Look, somebody gave us $10. Another person gave us $5 in the YouTube chat.

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Thank you, Faith702. And she says, so glad to see you back, Jeff. Thank you, Faith702.

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And Fast Joe Corrigan, God bless you. Thank you for giving to Apologia Church.

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Thank you so very much. Sounds like a mafia name. Hey, how you doing, Fast Joe? How you doing?

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Hey, we have a very important show to do today. We're all very excited because we have some good news to share with everybody, some exciting news about 2019 that is going to bless the world.

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We are praising God for it. We also have some conversation we want to have about the very interesting, and we praise

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God for, the conversation between Dr. MacArthur and Ben Shapiro. There were some amazing moments there that we are so grateful to God for, and especially grateful for the work of Dr.

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MacArthur, his ministry, and the things that he did in terms of conveying the good news of Jesus Christ to Ben Shapiro.

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However, we hold to a more, I think, biblical, and of course,

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I think, ancient, older Christian perspective on God and government.

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Dr. MacArthur holds to a perspective of the church and the kingdom of Jesus that really had its beginnings in the middle of the 19th century.

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We'll talk about that. So there's some things that we think could be more helpful in terms of ministering to somebody who calls themselves an

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Orthodox Jew. There are things that Orthodox Jews believe about the

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Torah and the Tanakh, the Old Testament, that they say have to be in place for the

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Messiah to be the Messiah. And some of the things that Dr. MacArthur said about Jesus, about his kingdom, about his rule in the world, we think fed into Ben Shapiro's rejection of Jesus.

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And we're going to talk about that in terms of how can we be more biblical and more helpful to an

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Orthodox Jew in terms of our ministering to an Orthodox Jew. Their perspective about the

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Messiah is that the Messiah must bring righteousness and justice to this world, to this earth.

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And when Dr. MacArthur said essentially Jesus isn't concerned with justice in the world and those sorts of things, and we'll get into details how he said that, we think that wasn't ultimately helpful to Shapiro because it ultimately fed into his rejection of Jesus as Messiah.

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Before we get too far, I have to interrupt your super lounge music here because I have a quick clip to play.

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Oh, happy anniversary, happy anniversary, happy anniversary, happy anniversary.

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Pour a cheerful toast and fill it happy anniversary. Fill it happy anniversary.

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Oh, happy anniversary, happy anniversary, happy anniversary, happy anniversary.

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Nice! I thought it was like an inside thing between you guys. I think it may have been December 5th, the first show we did. No joke!

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Well, how do you like them apples? No joke. You sounded like you were from Once Upon a Time in Real Life. Hey! Wonderful!

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Mr. Marr! Just started watching that, by the way, for the first time. And? Did you finish it?

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Oh, I'm only 20 minutes into it. Yeah. I am watching the black and white version, though.

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Good. Please do not watch the color. There's just no need for that. I had the option and I was like, I gotta give it the full experience.

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It's a wonderful life. Greatest Christmas movie ever made in history. But, praise God, six years of Apologia Radio.

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What is up? Hey, let's get right to it. I know you guys have been waiting now, bated breath, waiting to hear what's the situation, what's the good news?

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Well, first thing is, A, I haven't got a chance to talk about this publicly, really, yet. We have a lot of stuff to announce.

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Dr. James White is now a member of Apologia Church. Him and his wife,

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Kelly, are coming on board with Apologia Church. He is going to pour his life and ministry into Apologia Church.

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Everybody already knows that Dr. White is my mentor, my friend. He's been the greatest theological impact in my life since coming to Christ.

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First Christian book I ever read was from Dr. James White, before I ever knew him, and ran into him a little while later at the

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Mormon Temple in Mesa, Arizona. So I've known Dr. White for, let's see, 1996 is when I met Dr.

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White for the first time. And everybody knows the relationship that we have. And he's been on Apologia Radio, of course.

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I've been on The Dividing Line. He's taught at Apologia Church more times than I could possibly remember. I've been on The World.

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I've taught with Dr. White at conferences, literally around the world. And so, with that, big blessing to Apologia Church.

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Dr. James White is now a member of our church who can pour into our body and bless our people.

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So praise God for that. When he first came here, the first Sunday, I said, I'm about as happy as a

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Presbyterian can be. That you're here. That's hilarious. Amen, amen, amen.

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The next step of blessing and encouraging things that are happening at Apologia Church is we have big plans for 2019.

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I won't belabor the point here. I just have to tell you that when Marcus created the film years ago,

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Babies Are Murdered Here, God used that film. There you go. There's the original sign.

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That's the OG sign right there. Very, very excited to have that in the studio, by the way, because that's a piece of Christian history right there.

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It truly, truly is. It'll be in the Smithsonian one day. Yes, people have said on our feed, you guys have watched the show and you've seen this, and you've said, why in the world do you guys have a sign that says,

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Babies Are Murdered Here in your studio? Babies aren't murdered in your studio. That's offensive. Please understand, this is a beautiful thing.

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You tell the story. Well, I was with John Speed and he had me come out to film a little video on his church, but he accidentally got the flight back for Sunday at 8 a .m.

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instead of Sunday at 8 p .m., so his church service was at 9. I wasn't going to be able to, the whole purpose

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I was there, so I said, hey, are you going out to the abortion clinic? He's like, well, we're going out tomorrow. I was like, well, just film some stuff of your church doing things at the abortion clinic.

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A guy by the name of Robert Gray went to the dollar store and he got a black and red marker and that dollar piece of poster board right there.

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He made that sign. I was like, wow, that's really awesome. We just filmed that day and it became a trailer for the fundraiser movie.

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Then from there, people just started making their own signs exactly like this all over the country.

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Planned Parenthood made a sign that said health care happens here in response to this little

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YouTube movie. Can I stress that real fast? This movement started in such a way that it forced the greatest abortion provider in the country to respond to you.

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Yes, health care happens here. Telling the truth. It's a powerful thing. That right there is the actual original one and it's faded because it's just cheap dollar store poster board and they went outside in the rain a bunch of times with it and then they decided to stop using it in the rain because it wouldn't be around much longer and then

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John Speed brought that to us. Praise God. I'm so glad to have that here. With that, Babies Are Murdered here. If you have not seen it, you're on YouTube now.

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Don't go there yet, but later on when we're done here, go and look up Babies Are Murdered here. You will see the film in its entirety.

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It's up. I want to encourage you to watch it. Please watch it and then go to endabortionnow .com to get connected to our church so we can give you free training and free resources to do the same work and save more children.

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Thousands and thousands of children are alive today because of the ministry that God has done here through Marcus and Babies Are Murdered here and Abortion Now.

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It has just been an amazing thing. So to continue the story here, Babies Are Murdered here was used in tandem with one other event in our life as a church.

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We talked to a sister in Christ named Lisa Metzger who through her ministry outside the abortion mill had saved over 360 babies that year.

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We had her on the show. It convicted and challenged our very young church and right around that time,

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Marcus came out with Babies Are Murdered here. Marcus sent me a... I got to preview it and I remember being in my car.

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I dropped my kids off. They're homeschooled, but I dropped them off at their co -op and I remember vividly this moment.

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I dropped them off and I sat there in front of their co -op and I watched Babies Are Murdered here and I remember

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I sat in my car and I wept. In particular, it was Rusty Thomas' section that killed me.

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I just was weeping in my car and God used those things, especially

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Babies Are Murdered here, to bring Apology of Church into this fight and to get moving. So what we did is we started because of this film, because of all these events, we started going to the abortion mills and preaching the gospel as Apology of Church.

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Now, as this was happening, we would see God save a life and then we would have all this fruit.

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We would just come on Apology of Radio and we'd talk about it. We had no other intention except just to say, look what God did.

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Praise God for it. And then as that started happening, Christians across the country who were listening to Apology of Radio were like, hey, our church can do this too.

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So they started doing it as well, saving lives. So then God starts raising up Christians across the country, Babies Are Murdered here,

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Apology of Radio, just starts sort of this swell, this movement of Christians going out and saving lives and preaching the gospel.

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And then God gave us Apology of Studios, and then God gave us the opportunity to create

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End Abortion Now, a banner over a movement that just says that abortion must be ended by the

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Christian church with the gospel and the word of God. Not the way the pro -life movement does it, with neutrality.

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Not escaping from the message of Jesus and turning away from words like murder and repentance and criminal charges, those sorts of things.

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And so what God gave us the opportunity to do is create End Abortion Now. Since that time, about 300 local churches across the

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United States now are now trained, equipped for free. We have not taken a dime from these churches who want to get trained and equipped.

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We have given them all these free training, all these free resources, and we have seen

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God raise these churches up to save thousands of lives across the country. And then something happened this last year that we did not anticipate when we started this, and that is that God allowed this message to go international.

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Now the message, moving from a film to a church, a radio show, all that.

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Now this message is in Southern Ireland, Northern Ireland, Canada, all over the

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U .S., in Australia, and in New Zealand. And now there are churches internationally now saying no more pro -life movement and their bootleg message.

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No more pro -life movement and their non -Christian message. No more pro -life movement and their

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Christless message. Gospel -less message. This must be a move of the church of God who brings the gospel against this into conflict with it.

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Like it always has been. Every time there's been a transformation in the world, it's because the gospel, not neutrality.

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So with that, all that to say, and I'm so glad you're hanging on for this because I wanted to lay it down for anybody who's new and listening to us and doesn't know who we are and what's going on here and introducing you to King Ginger, most of you know him anyways.

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Marcus, what is happening in 2019? Babies are murdered here too. Babies are murdered here too.

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Yes! Yes, yes, yes. That's a very, very big deal. Now Marcus, we need to talk about what all that looks like.

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What is Babies Are Murdered Here Too going to be about? How does it work together with End Abortion Now and the vision for End Abortion Now?

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Yeah, so the first Babies Are Murdered Here was about changing the conversation and just using the word murder when you're talking about abortion.

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So many people use it now. You've seen the fruit of it. Yeah, it's like it happens all the time but when we first started, nobody would use that word and that was kind of what we discovered as we were making the film is like people didn't like that sign, people were getting mad at the word murder and then even like the pro -life groups, we got introduced to the pro -life groups and how they kind of water down the language to make it more

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PC and stuff like that. So anyway, so through the first film people realized, hey, you have to bring the gospel and biblical language when you're fighting abortion and so that's happened all over the country and several places around the world now as a result.

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That's crazy just to say that. Yeah, it is. Because it's just markers and poster boards. Yes. Like it's literally that sign has saved so many children will never, like,

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I mean the amount of that is just insane. So anyway, so the first one was changing the conversation and now now that there are so many churches that are equipped and are fighting against abortion locally at their abortion clinics, now we want to change the legislation.

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Right. So this movie will be about how certain organizations want to suppress just ending it through the legal system and they create all these sort of laws and rules and regulations and systems and even like forcing the

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Congress not to vote on laws because they don't all agree. Like we're going to get into how the pro -life lobby works very thoroughly is the plan and then we're going to get people out instead of getting people outside of the abortion clinics, we want to get them outside of their city councils now.

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Right. So keep on doing that, but also. Yeah, so it's going to be awesome. So the idea is

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Mercy Ministry at the abortion mills, saving lives like we've been doing.

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Churches getting equipped, getting trained, getting free resources to go and save lives as local churches with the gospel at the abortion mill.

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But now it's the prophetic witness of the church against the magistrate. Like the Black Robe Regiment.

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Yes. That's right. We're going to talk a bit about the Black Robe Regiment. I know. You knew it.

23:10

I knew it. I know why. That's right. But it's going to be exciting because we're going to put a lot of time dedicating my entire year to one film.

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Yes. And it's going to be it's going to be I'm praying it's the best thing

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I've ever made. God uses the weak things of the world to shame the wise. Hopefully it's not that good then.

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No. What I mean is I have a reason for saying that.

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I'll use an iPhone. I have a reason for saying that. You can with the new one. Here's what

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I'm saying. Hey, check this out guys. Think about this. The pro -life lobby, the pro -life organizations globally, they have made countless millions of dollars to fight against abortion, the scourge of abortion.

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And they've done it through their own testimony without a commitment to Jesus, His word, and calls to repentance and faith in Jesus.

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They have done it with a professed commitment to neutrality. And it is millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars every year to the pro -life lobby, pro -life movement.

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This year, the pro -life movement is going to ask for more millions of dollars to fund their fight against abortion, to bring those numbers down a bit.

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God used a piece of poster board and some markers and a $5 ,000 budget to start a movement that is

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Christ -centered, gospel -centered to fight against the scourge of abortion. That's what

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I'm talking about, how God can use these little things to completely transform the world. Yeah, we're talking about Gideon.

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Like, your army's too big. Yeah, right. You need less numbers. That's what

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God says. Which is interesting, because they're all about the numbers. They're all about the numbers. Yeah, Gideon's really interesting when you think about that, because Gideon was like,

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God was like, Gideon, your army's too big. You just need way less than what you have. Not by my power, but by my spirit.

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And the pro -life organizations are like, we just need more and more and more. We don't have the funds, we don't have the resources to end this.

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And so this is going to be a really... I hope this starts some fires.

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That's right. So, with that, please be looking out in the next couple of days, even, for the stuff that we're going to put out through Apology of Church and End Abortion Now.

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We are going to be giving you guys amazing stories of children who have been saved. We're going to give you their pictures, their stories.

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We're going to give you testimonies from churches that have been linked up with End Abortion Now that are saving lives. We're going to show you some content you haven't seen yet before from Australia, us preaching there and leading the church in Australia to get involved in this fight as Christians with the

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Gospel. And so be on the lookout. Go to endabortionnow .com to get more details. Please give there if you can.

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And I'm excited. There's big things happening. The plan for next year is actually exciting in terms of what we plan to do to continue to get more churches involved, to equip them, but also to help these churches build their own media ministries so that it's not merely

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Apology of Church that's sort of like flooding the media with this kind of content. We want you to do it as well.

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It can't just be Apology of Church, but we also want to be a prophetic witness against the magistrate to demand justice for these fatherless children.

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If you question whether God's concerned with that in this world, in this life, I challenge you to read the first two chapters of the book of Isaiah.

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Just read that and look at God's heart regarding justice for fatherless children. All right, let's get right to it now.

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We are going to try to go as quickly as possible through this, but we want to try to also be thorough in a way, biblical.

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I was very excited when I first saw word last week that Dr. MacArthur was going to be talking to Shapiro.

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I want to just start this by saying that Dr. MacArthur is a hero of the faith. He's a godly man.

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He is a solid believer. I have disagreements with him in some areas, but those are adiophora.

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Those are side issues. Many important issues, but Dr. MacArthur is a man of God who can be trusted and who is going to have a truckload more reward in heaven than me.

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And so I want to just say that at the outset. Dr. MacArthur, I do believe this. Dr. MacArthur I think is the man that God used to lead me to Jesus.

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I had a profession of faith early on as a teenager, and then I went into a drug and alcohol addiction.

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My wife and I debate over this to this day. She thinks that I was a believer. I fell into sin. I tend to think that I maybe didn't really trust in Jesus and understand the gospel itself, but I read the gospel according to Jesus by Dr.

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MacArthur, and I began to examine those verses in the word of God where Jesus calls people to come to him for life and to turn to him.

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Repent. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Come to him as Lord, Savior. Trust in him through faith alone.

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I began to really ask, do I really know Jesus? And that's where I turned to Christ and trusted in him and experienced the gift of eternal life.

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So that's what I want to say about MacArthur to start. I have to say that. Very important, because we are going to say some critical things here about what

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Dr. MacArthur said with Shapiro. Anybody else want to say anything else before we get into that? No.

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That's the thing. It feels kind of odd criticizing a man that's preached from Genesis to Revelation and knows the

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Bible so well, but you know, who am I? Not even 30, critiquing this amazing

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Bible scholar, but don't let anyone despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example. That's right.

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Dr. MacArthur, yeah. I was just going to say, I've always said that I was first discipled as I say MacArthur, right, but like through John MacArthur and a lot of his stuff on apologetics and scripture and theology.

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So yeah, I owe a great debt to that man as well. I think we all do. Christians can disagree and still kick it.

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That's right. Just because we have these, yeah, I'm glad you said that. Just because we have these disagreements doesn't mean we divide, doesn't mean we somehow create factions that come against each other.

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It just means like look, let's sharpen each other up here. I think you're not doing this in a full -orbed gospel of the kingdom way.

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Shapiro did get the gospel. He did. He did hear about Christ. I love that section where he went into Isaiah 53 and that was a beautiful thing.

29:32

By the way, I would be so honored if the audience that sees this would tweet and tag

29:39

Shapiro and ask if Shapiro would be willing to have me on to have the exact same discussion from a little bit different perspective.

29:50

I hold to a more Puritan, Neo -Puritan

29:57

Neo -Puritanism idea, like the idea that Jesus is ruler of heaven and earth here, and that every realm is under his authority and everything must obey him.

30:06

Including the political realm. Including the political realm. I hold to a Psalm chapter 2 perspective. Right, in short.

30:12

Yeah, in short, Psalm 2 is what I believe is true today where the father says to the son, ask of me

30:18

I'll give you the nations for your inheritance, the very ends of the earth for your possession, and then he warns the kings of the earth to obey the son or they're gonna perish.

30:24

I believe that that's true, and I believe that that's relevant today, right now, under the rule of Jesus, his kingdom.

30:31

He is, by the way, king of kings today, right? That's right. Isn't he lord of lords? Yeah, ruler of the kings of the earth.

30:36

Today? You believe that? That it's true today that Jesus rules over Donald Trump today, and that Donald Trump must obey

30:42

Jesus? I believe that. I don't think there's any other way to see king of kings. That's right. Right? So, again,

30:48

I just think there's a better way to actually get across the message of the gospel, the kingdom, and the Messiah than some of these startup points that MacArthur had.

30:56

Yeah. So, let's get right to it. So, we'll start off and just kind of touch a few spaces here.

31:02

Feel free, gentlemen, to stop me, and here we go. Issue of the day, and that is religion and politics.

31:08

So, you're not known as an overtly political preacher. You talk more about values than politics. What do you think the relationship should be between folks who are in the business of religion and trying to inform people about religion and politics?

31:20

How often should they be speaking about politics? Should they be doing so openly or just preaching values? So, real fast, you talk more about values than politics.

31:29

Isn't that a false dichotomy? Yeah. Why is that a false dichotomy? Because all political issues are inherently moral and based on your value system.

31:37

And John MacArthur is on a political talk show right now. Right. Yeah. Right. Talking about what?

31:43

Politics. Morality. Yeah. Morality, politics, yeah. Morality drives your politics. Okay, I'll give you this. Ready? I'll throw out a political issue.

31:50

Are you ready? Taxation. Moral. Moral? Right. How? Theft. Depending.

31:56

Depending. Yeah. Depending. Not every single. Well, the Bible says, when it comes to taxation, the rich shall not pay more and the poor shall not pay less.

32:05

Okay. It's very clear. God's law. Over and over again. Dealing with justice, you know, you should not punish someone less because they're poor or more because they're rich.

32:14

And then when it comes to taxation, not pay more and not pay less. So, when we have politicians who are saying things like, well, we need to tax the top 1 % more because they have more and they need to give their fair share.

32:30

Well, that's a complete violation of what God commands when it comes to issues of taxation.

32:36

So, wait. God has law about taxation. Yeah. So, because it's a violation of God's law, it is immoral.

32:43

Yes. Also, real fast. In Samuel, God says that Israel wanted a king like the rest of the nations.

32:51

They didn't want God ruling over them. Right. So, as punishment, God says, I'll give you a king like the other nations.

32:57

Here's your king, but just know he's going to take your kids to war and he's going to take 10%.

33:05

Which would be such a blessing in our nation. I know, right? Only 10%. Yeah. But listen closely to this.

33:12

I want a king. I know, right? What do we have to do to that? What's interesting here is that God says that this earthly king is going to be given to Israel as punishment because they didn't want

33:23

God as their king. God was a ruler over them. They didn't want God to rule in their hearts and rule over them.

33:28

They wanted an earthly king and God says, I'll give you the earthly king you want since you don't want me, but just know he's going to take your children to war and he's going to want the tithe.

33:37

He's going to want 10 % in taxation. So God's judgment upon Israel was 10 % taxation.

33:47

That's judgment from God. So what's 40 %? Lord, can we have Israel's judgment, please? Yeah, it's a little less harsh.

33:54

So if Israel was punished with 10 % taxation, what's 40? What's 45?

34:00

What's 50? Five -fold. That's a lot of judgment, y 'all. Or 90%. But my point is is that taxation, a political issue, is a moral issue.

34:12

It's a moral issue. When you take property and dollars from a human being, an image bearer of God, without their consent, or without ultimately their real permission, that is called theft.

34:27

Now it doesn't mean there's not a righteous way to fund your government and to do taxation, but it would have to be voluntary.

34:35

It would have to be a system that is not through coercion or threat of jail or people in black robes signing things and pretending like it's not theft.

34:45

It's a moral issue. What's another political issue that's a moral issue? Abortion. Abortion! The murder of the unborn.

34:52

So when you talk more about values than politics, that's a false dichotomy. That's a false dichotomy.

34:58

Well, everybody says that the government can't regulate morality, but that's the only thing the government can regulate.

35:04

That's right. Because that's what Romans 13 says. You punish those who do evil. That's a moral statement. Talk about that,

35:09

Marcus, real fast. I'll just give you 30 seconds on that. When you talk about Romans 13 and the purpose of government punishing evil, let's talk about that standard.

35:16

Yeah, it says the government's job is to terrorize those who do evil.

35:22

As God's deacon. Yeah, so one, right, as a minister of God. As a minister of which

35:27

God? The triune God of the Bible. The only God. I'm only stressing that because that is part of this discussion that we say is off Romans 13 which

35:39

MacArthur does an excellent job showing the purpose of government. It says that the government's created by God to be

35:45

His servant, not the servant of some other God.

35:50

And so the instructions are to bring terror or to bring wrath upon those who do evil.

35:56

So in order to understand that, you have to find out one, what is a just form of wrath to bring upon somebody because God punishes when

36:06

God punishes someone, it's not unjust. And then the other thing is you have to determine what is evil.

36:12

So evil and the consequences for evil are assumed in Romans 13 by God.

36:20

So that's why when you look at the social justice stuff, social justice is all about bringing mercy ministry, the function of the church, to the role of government whereas the government is not in the role of mercy although the law allows for that in some places.

36:36

For judges to give mercy. Yeah, for judges to give mercy but the role of mercy ministry is not a function of the government and the role of justice is not a role of the church.

36:46

So those are two boundaries and we see that. The role of executing justice. Yeah, that's where the social justice stuff comes in.

36:53

And I will say that it is teaching like John MacArthur's, and I say this very respectfully, that opens up the social justice people to say see?

37:05

How can he say these things? You know, there's injustice here but no one's arguing that per se, the issue is when it comes to dealing with things of justice and things of mercy, whether it's feeding the homeless or helping the poor or those sort of things, it's which covenant structure that God set up, whether it's church or state, which one of those governs which realm.

37:32

And so when you say while the church can't speak to issues of justice at all prophetically it completely opens up people to go, well if the church isn't going to do it, do these mercy ministry sort of things, then well we just need the government to do it.

37:47

And next thing you know they touch on that too. Here we go. My calling, my mandate, the command from heaven to me is to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.

38:00

That's the message that I am committed and mandated by God to preach. It's the gospel.

38:06

Politics is the art of reordering human society on a temporal basis.

38:12

The message of the gospel has to do with eternal issues. Not only.

38:19

That's truncated. That's a truncated version of the gospel. Is it true?

38:24

It's about eternal matters. Of course. Is that all? No. Okay. That's what we need to talk about here because that's a considerable,

38:32

I think, falling off point. Because when he says my mandate from heaven is to preach the gospel, amen, and he's done a fine job of that.

38:40

And we're all so grateful for it. But there's something that Jesus was preaching and it's in Matthew chapter 4 and it says that he went about proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom.

38:52

Yeah, the gospel of the kingdom. And your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

38:59

That's right. That's the prayer Jesus tells us to pray. Right. Plus the Great Commission wasn't just preach the gospel.

39:06

All authority in heaven and earth. And teach them to obey. Colossians, it says all rulers and power and principalities and...

39:15

Submission to Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15, right? 115. So that whole thing. That whole thing.

39:21

Luke and you brought up two things of Jesus, and they're both in Matthew. You said that Jesus told us to pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

39:34

So Jesus tells us to pray for the temporal things on earth and heaven.

39:41

That's the prayer. That's Jesus. You pray like this. So if I want to pray like Jesus, Jesus told me to pray about the temporal things on earth.

39:49

That God's will would be done here on earth like it is in heaven. And the question is this. Just how well do you think

39:56

God's will is kept in heaven? Perfectly. So how does that translate to the earth?

40:02

That's what we're supposed to pray for. That people would obey Jesus on earth, obviously in every realm like he is in heaven.

40:08

Well, in the Lord's Prayer it says give us this day our daily bread. That's a temporal thing. you can't separate these kingdoms because God works together.

40:23

That's what it's about. There is a bit of Christian Gnosticism.

40:28

I'm not saying that MacArthur is a Christian Gnostic. Please hear me on that. There is a bit of Christian Gnostic thought that permeates the church in the west today in terms of a division between these two places.

40:41

Heaven is the spiritual realm that matters so much. God's concerned with the spiritual, not the icky, earthly thing.

40:48

It just smacks of this theme in our culture today. It smacks of a version of Christian Gnosticism where this really matters not to God at all.

40:58

He's concerned with the immaterial, spiritual things. Pastor Luke brought up a verse from Matthew 28, 18 -20, and that verse starts off where Jesus says, all authority in heaven, every

41:10

Christian goes, Amen. And then it goes, and on earth has been, past tense, given to me.

41:16

Jesus says that before he ascends. So before Jesus departs, he actually gives us a mandate and says, it's all mine now.

41:23

I've had victory. I'm risen from the dead. I'm ascending to be seated. It's all mine there and here.

41:31

Therefore, go baptize the nations and teach them to obey me. So when

41:36

MacArthur, when brother MacArthur says, I've got a mandate from heaven to be concerned with eternal things, and these are all temporal ordering of society things,

41:44

I would say, that's truncated, brother. It's so truncated. Jesus' view of all of life is so much bigger.

41:52

And the gospel of the kingdom is the good news of the rule of the Messiah. And my question is this, why is the

42:00

Messiah's rule in this world good news? How is that good news?

42:05

Of course it means eternal life and forgiveness and reconciliation with God, but the lordship of Jesus Christ, brother

42:11

MacArthur, that's what you taught me that I was missing from the gospel, is the lordship of Jesus Christ, that he rules over every area of my life.

42:20

And that's what's missing here, right? Well, one of MacArthur's greatest accomplishments is the third part of the

42:28

Great Commission, Go Make and Teach. He started Master's Seminary, which has been an incredible seminary.

42:34

He hasn't come and just preached the gospel. He's actually physically incorporated the third part of teaching all that God has commanded.

42:42

Now, the question is, how much of all that God has commanded is he teaching? But the point is, he's doing more than just preaching the gospel.

42:49

Right. And what I would ask, too, when it comes to, we're supposed to be focused on eternal things and not restructuring the temporal world, what about abortion?

42:59

Right. Should we stop that? And what about racism in the 1950s, which he fought for, right?

43:08

So, it just seems to me... Just for clarity.

43:15

We have new listeners. Good catch. And that's a good point. What we're saying here is this, is that Brother MacArthur, godly man that he is, is a bit of a mixed bag at some points.

43:27

And it's those moments of being a mixed bag, because he is consistent in these areas. MacArthur, if we started talking about abortion and theft by the government, he'd be on our side.

43:36

One of the best sermons I've ever heard on abortion is one he preached. Right. So, it's just a matter of the story behind a lot of this is a mixed bag.

43:45

And those inconsistencies actually give Shapiro a reason to reject Jesus as the

43:50

Messiah. Remember the verse I read at the beginning of this episode? I read Isaiah chapter 42 for a reason, because that was one of those messianic prophecies about the

44:00

Messiah who will bring forth justice on the earth. The coastlands will wait for his law.

44:07

That is the promise of the Messiah, that he was actually going to bring the Torah into the heart and life of the people of God, and it would transform the world itself.

44:18

Justice would fall into the world because the Messiah was reigning and ruling. Well, I believe he is reigning and ruling now, which means that he is bringing forth justice.

44:26

For example, babies are murdered here. The work of the church, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, going and bringing the good news of Jesus and his authority into the world leads to justice for children, mercy for children.

44:41

Abortion clinics on earth and in time have actually been shut down. Because of the work of the church.

44:47

Do you see how that works? So what we're saying here is that we see these as inconsistencies that actually help

44:53

Shapiro along the way in his rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, because what MacArthur is missing here is all those passages that talk about the

45:00

Messiah himself bringing justice to the earth and the law of God and righteousness, and that's all taking place in history.

45:06

It's happening in the world, and it's one of the reasons Orthodox Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. Not because of all the passages that clearly point to Jesus and his salvation and redemption and death and resurrection, but it's all those passages that talk about the

45:19

Messiah ruling in the world. Well, here's the thing. The New Testament says he's ruling now on his throne, putting his enemies under his feet, 1

45:26

Corinthians 15. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So we need to have this bigger picture of the gospel of the kingdom that we think is just missing here.

45:34

And again, this isn't an attack on Brother MacArthur. We love him. It's just a point of clarity and communication to say, no, we need to get this part right too.

45:42

It doesn't mean I avoid everything political because I also want to do anything I can to elevate justice and righteousness in the world.

45:54

You said that the mandate, Brother MacArthur, was to focus on eternal things and political things are just a temporary reshaping of the world.

46:01

Do you see how it doesn't work, friends? Because as a shepherd of God, as a minister of the gospel, as a faithful man of God, he knows.

46:08

He knows about God's standards and God's righteousness and God's desire for justice in the world.

46:14

So on the one hand, he says, well, I'm not really so concerned with this. But on the other hand, he goes, no, but I have to be.

46:22

And there's the falling off. That's the challenge. So I'm concerned with justice, what the government does.

46:28

Yes, yes. And so as a Christian, I want to take responsibility for whatever political avenues that I can go down that are going to increase the order of society, the blessing of society.

46:39

I want to be pro family, pro life, pro character, pro virtue, pro morality, all those kinds of things, pro honesty, pro kindness, pro mercy, pro grace, all of those things in my culture.

46:52

That's mandated to me as well. I'm to be a citizen who submits to the powers that be.

46:58

I am not to be a revolutionary. We don't start riots. That's not a Christian thing to do. We don't even start revolutions.

47:05

And you could argue about the American Revolution, whether that was actually legitimately a Christian act or not.

47:10

Hmm. Ooh. So we're not going to be able to get through this hour and nine minute video here.

47:18

It's important. Let's talk about it at least briefly.

47:23

This is important. I don't refer to it as the Revolutionary War. I refer to it as the

47:29

War for Independence. And there were some things that Brother MacArthur said in this interview that were honestly kind of stunning to me in terms of historical perspective.

47:38

He talked about the founders of the United States of America being deists. Yeah, I heard that. Very, very peculiar in terms of when you give an overgeneralization like that, you make a lot of old

47:49

Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists and Congregationalists very upset with you. People that are dead and buried and with the

47:56

Lord now, they're looking down at you with squinty eyes. If you read things like the Mayflower Compact, you see it's just not true.

48:03

It's explicitly Christian. Well, let's talk about the Black Robe Regiment. The War for Independence in England was referred to as the

48:15

Presbyterian Revolt. I want to say... I like that name a lot better than the

48:21

Revolutionary War. I like it a lot. I didn't learn it in school like that. I'll go with what

48:27

England called it. The Presbyterian Revolt. It's important for us to make sure that we honor the men and women of God who laid their lives down for truth and justice and righteousness in a culture and society.

48:41

I've got to tell you right now, those Presbyterians and those Black Robes and those Reformed Baptists and those

48:47

Congregationalists... It was led by the Presbyterians, but it included Baptists and Congregationalists.

48:53

I've got to tell you right now, those Presbyterians, they were as theologically sound as they come.

49:01

Of course, as a Reformed Baptist, I have some disagreements with my Presbyterian brethren, but not enough to separate, not at all, and not enough to say that these men were not solid.

49:11

And I'll tell you what, they weren't Deists. Now, if England called the

49:16

War for Independence the Presbyterian Revolt and they referred to the people who were fighting against them as the

49:23

Black Rope Regiment, we need to examine this a little bit more in terms of a historical perspective.

49:29

These Christians who fought in that war had been preaching for over a decade about God's standards of justice and righteousness, the role of the king and his duty to obey

49:42

Jesus. When they sent their indictment to England about the failures of England, they referred to moral failings under God.

49:52

Right. Right. Under God. The Declaration of Independence. Yeah. When they were referring to this fight, they were doing it with a very

49:58

Christian worldview and talking about justice and sin and righteousness and the duty and role of the king to obey

50:03

God. And that's, of course, why England calls it the Presbyterian Revolt, because it was led by the

50:10

Black Rope Regiment. These were Presbyterian ministers of the Gospel and Baptist and Congregationalists who preached in their

50:18

Genevan black robes before the people of God on the Lord's Day, and then as soon as they finished opening that word of God and preaching about God's standards of justice and righteousness, they took off that black robe and they picked up a musket to go and fight.

50:31

By the way, if you know about the shot heard around the world, we didn't shoot first. So it was a defensive war in the first place.

50:40

And so let's talk about that. Christians and revolutions. Well, if you read the book of Judges, there's all sorts of wars that happen.

50:48

The Old Testament in general. And you see a lot of those wars were with lower civil magistrates rising up against kings or tyrants or the invading army and whatnot.

51:01

So in the Bible, it says that Israel would win that war and they were blessed because of it.

51:12

God didn't say, you shouldn't have fought, you should have just submitted. There was all sorts of instances like that.

51:20

It's incredible to read through those books and just, man, Israel was violent.

51:27

David was violent. So there absolutely is a time and a place for a just war.

51:36

Not just any war. And according to Brother MacArthur Shapiro later on in the interview asks him, is there ever a justifiable time to rebel or to throw off such governments and to have that gentle resistance even?

51:51

And he explicitly says no. Scripturally speaking, there's no justification for that. But if you take an example like the

51:58

Declaration of Independence, the text that is within that document says, it talks about the abuses of the king and a long suffering and a prolonging in which they tried to wait it out and see if that would change.

52:10

But then those designs that reduce them under absolute despotism is what the wording says.

52:18

When that abuse has gone on so long enough, it's up to us now to throw off such government and provide new guards for our future security.

52:24

And? Very good. I'm so glad you had that into memory. Marcus said it perfectly.

52:30

It's an act of interposition. It is. It's a Christian act. You're not following the government into their rebellion against God.

52:37

I'm so glad you said that because we need to talk about that for a second because actually that provides a better framework to talk about the

52:42

War for Independence and the Presbyterian Revolt. That's how you need to refer to it, by the way. Stop saying

52:47

Revolutionary War. So, the context is different, right?

52:54

It's a matter of thinking of proper categories, right? England. What was the predominant worldview over in England at the time?

53:02

Christian worldview. What was the predominant worldview in America at the time in the

53:07

United States? Well, in all the states and the colonies, I should say. What was the predominant worldview there?

53:14

Calvinism. Puritan Calvinism. Reform faith. You would have been hard, hard, hard, hard pressed to find

53:22

Arminianism in the United States during the early founding of the United States of America. That came later. This church, this nation was founded by hardcore pipe -hitting

53:33

Calvinists and there is no getting around that. So, when you think about the worldview behind the nations that went to war with each other, these people were thinking in Christian categories.

53:46

Now, whether they were truly Christians or not, I'm not saying everybody who was a part of this was a Christian, truly Christian, truly know the

53:52

Lord. I'm saying that they most certainly had a Biblical perspective of the world. Even Benjamin Franklin, who was not a

53:58

Christian, still attended these church services. He respected famous preachers like Whitefield and all the rest.

54:08

He understood the Zeitgeist, the spirit of the age. Was fundamentally

54:13

Christian. So, when you talk about history in this way, in these very general categories,

54:19

I think it misses a lot of very important points. I'll just leave it at that. So, we'll play a little bit more here. We don't start revolutions.

54:26

We submit to the powers that be and we work to change the culture from the inside, one soul at a time. Okay, so let's talk about that for a second.

54:33

So, let's say, as an example, let's say we're in a place like Germany and you have people slaughtering

54:41

Jews and actually trying to hunt the Jews down. You've got Jews in your village that you know and you love, and you decide you want to actually provide protection and love and cover for them, so you start hiding people like Anne Frank.

54:54

And you hide them in your basement or in your walls and things like that. Aren't you committing a revolutionary act?

55:01

An act of civil disobedience. An act of civil disobedience and interposition. Aren't you committing an act of revolution against your government?

55:07

Doesn't your government tell you to obey and to submit? Well, do you submit to your government when they tell you to stop hiding

55:14

Jews? No, you hide those Jews. You save their lives, right? So, you see, when you start speaking in general categories here, like not ever to be involved in revolutionary acts, it's like, well, hang on a minute.

55:25

Hang on a minute. What if God's being disobeyed? What if I'm being asked to lead to the slaughter of another human being? What if California, which isn't that far off, decided to make

55:34

MacArthur start doing homosexual marriages? Revolutionary act? Dr. MacArthur? Because I can promise you he wouldn't do it.

55:41

I know he wouldn't do it. That is a revolutionary act for sure. That is a revolutionary act. You have to disobey the government when they disobey

55:47

Jesus. Making a gay wedding cake. Yeah. When you ask me to disobey Jesus, I will disobey you.

55:54

And I know that's Dr. MacArthur, Brother MacArthur's heart. Right. In terms of the leadership that we pick, so obviously you're talking a lot about submitting to the temporal nature of government.

56:03

If you go back to the Old Testament, it was prophets who were anointing kings. What should our role be in a democracy in terms of shaping the values of that democracy for political reasons?

56:13

You see a lot of pastors who endorse particular political candidates. Do you think that that's worthwhile? Especially because a lot of the issues that you talk about are inherently political.

56:22

They may not have been political 50 years ago, but when you say pro -life, pro -family, pro -religion, these actually do have real world consequences.

56:30

Because all politics is moral. Everybody say it. All politics is moral.

56:35

All politics is moral. Hashtag it and put it out there. All politics is moral. It's not that it's become moral.

56:42

It was always moral. The family was always the moral foundation. Life was always moral.

56:48

Taxation was always moral. All of it's moral. And Shapiro knows this, and he's looking for a messiah that's going to fix everything.

56:57

And by the way, Shapiro, Jesus is fixing everything. He is.

57:02

It was a little different 50 years ago when we might have been talking about some sort of social structure and economics.

57:09

We're not talking about that anymore. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. You certainly have the social justice people talking about economics as a moral thing.

57:18

They're talking about increase the minimum wage and tax more people.

57:24

Those are all moral issues being propagated by Christians today. Big time celebrity Christians today are talking about that.

57:32

And those are moral issues. We need to steal from people because they have more money.

57:38

Just on that basis alone. We need to take money that people have worked hard for. Or we need to increase the minimum wage.

57:45

We have to do these things even when the Bible is very clear with the parable of the vineyard worker about minimum wage and all these things.

57:52

These are all moral issues. They're all political issues.

57:59

Truth Seeker, I'm not sure if you're a guy or a gal, so forgive me, but I just want to encourage you to be a little more thoughtful.

58:06

I see you in the live feed here. You said, sorry guys, you're misrepresenting what Brother John is saying. He would hide Jews. He would hide

58:12

Jews, but that's very different than starting a revolution. You're misunderstanding the point completely. Nobody said here, my friend, that MacArthur wouldn't hide

58:20

Jews. My point was that he would. And that would be a revolutionary act. It would be in direct opposition to the commands of submission of the government in Germany.

58:31

If the police were outside of John MacArthur's church and they said here are two gay guys, here are two gay women, marry them, or there's a bullet going to go to your head, if he says no,

58:48

I'm not going to marry them, that's a revolutionary act, a defiance against the government.

58:53

It's a revolutionary act. Yes, it absolutely is. And of course John MacArthur wouldn't do that.

58:59

John MacArthur would take a bullet before any of us, probably. He probably would. He'd take a bullet, he'd be hiding more Jews than all of us.

59:04

That's the kind of man that he is. Do you see the point, again, and this is one of those things where Christians, I just want to say this with love and respect to you, when you watch things like this, please think about context.

59:13

Please try to not make wild assumptions in terms of saying like we're misrepresenting Brother John. The whole point of the story was to say that Brother John would absolutely resist.

59:23

And in that, it's a revolutionary act. That's the point. Ality now.

59:29

We're talking about whether we kill babies or don't kill babies. We're talking about what is marriage. We're talking about what is a family.

59:35

What is male? What is female? Those are the issues now that have made their way into the political world so that it's fraught with moral issues.

59:45

And if you are one who has... And can I just say this real fast? This is really important in terms of context.

59:51

The problem before in the United States, well, I shouldn't say the problem. The blessing before in the United States is because this was established.

59:58

This culture was established by Christians. This nation was established by Christians. Calvinists. Reform folks, by the way.

01:00:06

Because of that, we had this blessing of Christianity and the Christian worldview that our nation hadn't shook loose yet.

01:00:14

Right? So 50 years ago, we were still riding on the coattails of the Presbyterian revolt.

01:00:20

And all that those Christians did. And John Jay, the first Supreme Court justice who was quoting the

01:00:25

Bible in the initial decrees in the Supreme Court justice stuff. And so that's why 50 years ago we weren't talking about whether a mom or a man is a man and a woman is a woman and families and whether men can marry men and women can marry women.

01:00:40

Why? Because it was assumed that marriage is between a man and a woman. Where in the world did you get that idea from those pesky

01:00:48

Presbyterians and Baptists and Congregationalists in this country, right? And where did you get the idea of like a male is a male, a female is a female, and that's defined clearly?

01:00:56

Well, because that's what the Bible says, right? And all those things were just there. It hadn't been shook loose yet. And that's why not that they became political issues.

01:01:05

It just was assumed anyways, and we were just writing off the coattails of the blessing of the Christian worldview. The foundations of the

01:01:10

Christian worldview have been slowly eroded away. That's right. That's why. So it didn't become moral issues. They were always moral issues.

01:01:17

And now they've been eroded. And now we have to fight these fights. Moral authority, which would be the word of the living

01:01:23

God, the Creator. Then your responsibility in any society is to make sure that God's moral standards are heard.

01:01:31

Amen. Can we be done now? Yeah. Heard and obeyed. Now, hold on now.

01:01:37

Isn't this all over now? Like on that one statement alone, aren't we unified now as brothers and sisters in the

01:01:44

Lord to say that's the duty and role and mandate of the church? Right. To speak God's law word to the powers that be into our culture.

01:01:53

Right. Not as long as you maintain the coming of a king without the coming of his kingdom.

01:01:59

Right. Talk about that because we'll end it for here. We'll pick up later and do more of this episode later.

01:02:05

We'll examine more of MacArthur's statements. I think we've given people a lot to think about. That's the main thing though, isn't it,

01:02:11

Zach? Yeah. Isn't the main issue here... Timing of the kingdom. It's eschatology. I think ultimately it's your view of the future, the timing of the kingdom, what the reign of the

01:02:19

Messiah looks like for the here and now as opposed to being some far off thing that we're waiting on to be established.

01:02:25

See, this is why hashtag eschatology matters. End times views matter greatly because you see what

01:02:32

Shapiro believes about the Messiah and eschatology is he believes what the Old Testament says.

01:02:38

Hold on. Please forgive me. He rejects the passages that talk about Jesus and his redemption and salvation, those sorts of things.

01:02:46

He won't obey those and see those. But watch. He accepts the passages about Messiah that talk about the

01:02:53

Messiah bringing a kingdom where all the Earth has to obey the Messiah and obey his authority and he brings justice and righteousness.

01:02:59

He believes those texts. It's eschatological for Shapiro but it's also eschatological for MacArthur except MacArthur says that Jesus didn't really bring his kingdom in his first coming.

01:03:13

He's going to bring it later and there is where we will have our theocracy. There is where the

01:03:20

Messiah will rule and reign and bring justice to the Earth. All those passages in the Old Testament about the Messiah's rule and reign and justice that's coming later.

01:03:28

Right? But what we're saying is that well no actually the Bible says in numerous places

01:03:33

Daniel chapter 2 that the Messiah's kingdom would come during the time of the fourth kingdom which was

01:03:39

Rome and Jesus lo and behold and John the Baptist lo and behold comes in and says repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

01:03:45

Jesus says in Matthew very clearly he says if I cast out demons by the spirit of God then the kingdom of heaven has come upon you.

01:03:53

It has come upon you. Paul says he has delivered us from the domain of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of his son.

01:04:00

The most popular text in the New Testament from the Old Testament is Psalm 110 1 and it is this that he is seated at the right hand of the father and he must reign until all his enemies come under his feet as a footstool for his feet.

01:04:11

Just one more thing too. I know we're pressed for time but the accusation not accusation

01:04:17

I should say but the position that Dr. MacArthur holds about the New Testament not interpreting the Old Testament is so critical to the idea of the kingdom coming and seeing

01:04:28

Jesus now as seated right if that's something that's future then the temporal benefits of Jesus being on his throne now before the second coming

01:04:37

I mean it just it kind of falls apart in the sense of Shapiro hearing this like well that's definitely not the

01:04:44

Messiah then because he's not concerned with justice and righteousness in the world and as an

01:04:49

Orthodox Jew I have to be because the Old Testament scriptures are yes the God of this holy writ has emphasized again and again the necessity of justice and righteousness in the world.

01:05:03

The Messiah will rule. So if your Jesus has no care for those things then that's a different Jesus.

01:05:11

He's not the Messiah. He's a different Messiah than the one that's presented. Obviously he wouldn't use the word Jesus because he doesn't believe. Yeah that's the key thing is this is a very eschatological question and problem and I think that if you look at the text of the

01:05:26

Old and New Testament you see that the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus did bring his kingdom that he is king of kings now lord of lords now has all authority in heaven and on earth now there's nothing left he's sitting on David's throne now that's a

01:05:36

Davidic throne that's the Messiah's throne if as Christians we say and we have to because there's no way out of it that Jesus is on the

01:05:43

Davidic throne now that means that he's seated on the Messianic throne now and if somebody says today with a dispensational premillennial eschatology well no

01:05:52

Jesus did bring his kingdom but it's now and not yet I would say well what you really mean is now but not really. Yeah that's what you mean because what you're saying is that he didn't really bring it it's coming later but the

01:06:03

New Testament and Old Testament say that it had to happen in the first century and Jesus says he's got it so what we get to say to Shapiro is no all those passages about justice and righteousness here in this world yeah

01:06:15

Jesus cares and guess what Shapiro he's bringing it so turn to Christ and live turn to Christ and live any last words on that okay now as a final final end to the show today let's talk a bit about Steven Anderson many of you guys know we've addressed

01:06:32

Mr. Anderson before in the past he has unfortunately taken it upon himself to actually spread lies about Apologia Church documentable lies documentable lies about me about Apologia Church about my wife and it's sad and I want to first apologize ahead of time to everybody who is listening who has to listen to you know the words of really like an internet troll is really what it actually is it's sad because for many many years

01:07:05

I've actually invited Anderson to a public moderated debate I want to give that challenge once again

01:07:12

Steven let's get beyond talking back and forth to each other you've already been refuted up and down through what you said before but let's get beyond the back and forth talking over the internet and let's go ahead and have a public moderated debate we'll pay for everything we'll pay for the venue we'll fill the place up we'll have a moderated debate and we'll talk about who's in charge of salvation we'll talk about some of these issues that you slander on and you lie about but Steven Anderson is a well -known internet hate preacher that would be an accurate way to talk about him he has recently decided

01:07:45

I guess he has like some very deep affections for me and you know that or he's trying to sell a film yeah oh yeah they are doing a film on Calvinism a bunch of independent fundamental

01:07:55

Baptists are and we're gonna be responding in the next couple of weeks to some of the blatant false witness now

01:08:03

I do have to say I'm just gonna be very very honest and have a lot of transparency and try to be very humble to you

01:08:09

I find it really awe inspiring truly to see people who profess to be ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ tell blatant bold -faced lies that can be demonstrated over and over and over I find it peculiar that men who profess to represent the

01:08:30

Savior, the Lord of Glory these men would actually tell bold -faced lies publicly and they're documented now and we have them recorded so there's no getting out of it now and we're gonna go through it but recently

01:08:42

Steven Anderson has decided to start talking about me and issues of homosexuality and what do you call the glasses?

01:08:51

Elton John glasses those sorts of things we'll just play through some of this, I think it's important let's at least try to talk through some of these things and yeah,

01:09:02

I'll go ahead and get past here you guys feel free to stop me whenever you wish at the Guinness storehouse the Guinness factory, so much history here somebody just sent me a video a couple days ago of Pastor Dirtbin and he is in Dublin, Ireland wearing

01:09:18

Elton John glasses with a ring on his thumb like a homo okay, so Mr.

01:09:27

Anderson, let me show you we titled this we titled this video

01:09:33

Steven Slanderson for a reason, I wanna just go ahead and say ahead of time I'm not gonna abuse you like that and continue to do that, we did it for a purpose to show you that,

01:09:42

Steven that's just too easy, Jeff Dirtbin it could be done all day back and forth,

01:09:48

Steven Slanderson Steven Panderson pandering to the audience, all those sorts it's too easy,

01:09:55

Steven and so I wanna encourage you to actually raise your level of integrity and up your game my friend, because that sort of thing might convince your lackeys but it doesn't impress me what

01:10:08

I'm impressed with is the word of God what I'm impressed with is the truth and exegesis, I'm not impressed with the

01:10:14

Dirtbin and the Apostasia Church, I'm impressed actually with the truth and the word of God, so let's get to that because I've done this before to show you that two can play at this game and it's ultimately not how you settle these disputes, we just settle them with the word of God, so let's try that, now let's get real quickly to the

01:10:32

Elton John glasses. Jose, speaking of lackeys there's all kinds of slander, right? It's on our channel here today, so they're in full force.

01:10:40

Right on well, welcome to the channel, friends I hope that we can convince you not through abusive behavior but through the words of the living

01:10:47

God of the truth. I hope you see in us an Apologia Church, I hope you see in us a spirit of obedience to Jesus and a desire to honor

01:10:55

Him I hope you see in us a commitment to the word of God and not to slander and abuse what we want to do is settle these issues through the scriptures, not through this sort of internet troll like behavior, but let's get into what he accuses me of.

01:11:10

First of all, I was in Dublin, Ireland, just so you know and Luke was there and were you there on that first trip?

01:11:16

Not that trip. No, Marcus was there. Marcus, you filmed this. Yes and we were there we were there fighting against abortion and bringing the gospel against abortion in Ireland that's what we were doing there and we happened to actually come upon the

01:11:33

Guinness factory and just in terms of what I was wearing, I was wearing clothes to keep me warm and I had a pair of sunglasses that I bought,

01:11:40

I believe at a gas station for $7 because it was bright outside and there were $7 sunglasses that I happened to get at a gas station because that's all that was available.

01:11:52

Next, the thumb ring and this goes to show why God commands you by the way as a minister of the gospel what you profess to be, not to slander

01:12:00

I'll give you a word from Titus 3 your mandate because you profess to be a believer and a minister of the gospel is to malign no one, to be peaceable gentle, showing every consideration for all men that's one way of rendering that I just want to encourage you to think very hard about what you said there because you said he's wearing a homo ring on his thumb well first of all, you don't get to determine what's a homo ring on the thumb you need to know in history that the thumb ring was worn by royalty, the thumb ring was worn by people who were archers and you need to understand that but also, in my case, that thumb ring, that homo ring that you slandered me with that's actually a very special thing between my daughter and I, my daughter who was 16, went on a missions trip with me globally to preach the gospel and to save lives and while we were on this missions trip we had such a great time together serving

01:12:58

God, we decided to get a token to remember forever that ministry and so I bought her a ring and my daughter bought me a ring but the only size available at that moment was a size that would only fit my thumb and so the ring that you're mocking and calling a homo ring is actually a ring that was given to me by my daughter and happened to be the only ring available and it was as a token to remember our ministry for Jesus Christ and the gospel around the world

01:13:27

Was it a Lord of the Rings ring? It was also a Lord of the Rings ring So it was a Tolkien ring Yeah And I got a

01:13:34

I got it in New Zealand and that's where she got it for me That sounds like the least gay ring ever least gay ring ever

01:13:42

Oh by the way, I lost the ring unfortunately while I was working on my car, how gay

01:13:52

Here's more And he's standing outside the Guinness factory where they make the beer, Guinness, who knows what

01:13:58

I'm talking about and behind me here is the Guinness storehouse it's where Arthur Guinness began his business and it's a really interesting story actually

01:14:11

Arthur Guinness was a believer in Jesus Christ he loved God he believed in the gospel and he's like, oh this is such a blessing and this man

01:14:21

Guinness was a godly Christian and he helped so many people by brewing this beer and making this beer and it was such a blessing to people all the hard liquor was destroying the underclass and so Arthur Guinness wanted to create something that would be ultimately good for people that would be difficult to really abuse in the same way as a hard liquor and so he created

01:14:44

Guinness as a means to essentially bless the underclass create something amazing and he did it because they were drinking stuff that was even harder liquor so he got him on something with a little less alcohol in it, amen?

01:15:01

what a godly man to actually ok, let's talk about that I think you have a real problem

01:15:11

Mr. Anderson that you really need to face and though your independent fundamental separated baptist might want to skirt this issue or ignore these bible verses you're going to have a heck of a time with the word of God with your position, now drunkenness is a wicked sin that will send you to hell but you're going to have to face the facts that the bible actually speaks very highly about alcohol it's a blessing and not to be abused now anything can be abused as sinful for example, people abuse sex all the time do we now say no more sex?

01:15:46

how about sex in the right context? how about sex to the glory of God? people abuse food all the time so do we say no more food?

01:15:54

people abuse YouTube as well people abuse YouTube all the time people abuse the pulpit

01:16:00

Mr. Anderson all the time, do we say no more pulpit? or how about this if you would all go to your bibles to Deuteronomy I want you all to see this, it's very very important go to Deuteronomy chapter 14 this is from the law of God, Deuteronomy chapter 14 everyone head on over there

01:16:24

Deuteronomy chapter 14 Deuteronomy chapter 14 I'll let you all get there because it's important that you do and see this with your own eyes the second giving of the law

01:16:33

Deuteronomy chapter 14 and I want you to look at what

01:16:39

God commands of people in his holy law regarding alcohol and even strong drink now you can start at chapter 14 and look in verse 22 it says, you shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year and before the

01:16:58

Lord your God in the place that he will choose to make his name dwell there you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, of your what?

01:17:06

your wine and your oil it was not grape juice, sorry Fundy Baptists it was not the firstborn of your herd and flock and you may learn to fear the

01:17:15

Lord your God always and if the way is too long for you so that you're not able to carry the tithe then the

01:17:22

Lord your God blesses you because the place is too far from you which the Lord your God chooses to set his name there then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the

01:17:32

Lord your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink whatever your appetite craves and you shall eat there before the

01:17:43

Lord your God and rejoice you and your household so God actually tells his people if it's too much to carry all of this stuff for the tithe the wine then go ahead and sell it right make money off of it and then come to the place of where all this is taking place and then buy whatever your heart desires to celebrate and to worship

01:18:06

God whether it's strong drink or wine here is God himself commanding his people as part of worship and celebration buy whatever your heart desires wine or strong drink would

01:18:18

God have ever allowed them to be drunkards that would have been condemned outright completely and totally so when you criticize a person in history who created an alcoholic drink that has one of the lowest alcohol contents of any beer that is out there when you criticize him for trying to create a drink that could not be easily abused as easily abused as whiskey take that for example

01:18:44

I find that very peculiar because you're not reasoning from a position of scripture you're reasoning from a position of tradition tradition not scripture never mind the fact that in Proverbs in describing wisdom it says that wisdom has made the choicest wines and has set the table with those wines that's wisdom right and also what did

01:19:07

God tell in terms of a beautiful story about his people how did he say he was going to bless his people with the choicest wines and those weren't that wasn't grape juice y 'all that wasn't invented until the 1800s that's right there's a documentary on Netflix it was called

01:19:25

A Year in Burgundy and they went through the entire process of how they make wines in Burgundy in France and as soon as those grapes come off the vine they throw them in a truck and they run to processing because they start fermenting immediately so if they're rushing to get these grapes into processing as soon as they come off the vine because most of the time the harvest they're already starting to ferment on the vine themselves so they have to get them off so this idea that especially with not having trucks and being carried by mule the wines being carried by mules and stuff it's just impossible it's completely impossible and also the point of the

01:20:08

Guinness story we were trying to tell the point of the Guinness story is that Christians in history were thinking about here and now this world, blessing the world as Christians living here as part of the kingdom of God, being lights and beacons of righteousness in the world and so that was really the point of the video it wasn't so much about the beer by the way,

01:20:28

I just gotta say this Luke, when's the last time I had a drink of alcohol? I honestly don't know, it's been at least three years maybe not longer so in terms of how you try to slander and make our church look or us look, just know

01:20:42

I don't even know I have alcohol so few times in my life

01:20:47

I don't even remember I can't think about it because and of course Anderson would probably say you don't remember because you're doing so much drinking

01:20:53

I don't remember because it happens so little in my life and barely that it's not even really a part of my life don't really care too much about it

01:21:00

I'm not a big fan ultimately of it but I do see it as a blessing in the right context do what we do to the glory of God whatever you do in word or in deed do all to the glory of God whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all of your might to the glory of God this is an example of that we need to get back to it

01:21:23

Amen. It says excuse Pastor Dirtman now while he gets back to it brewing beer for the glory of God you know

01:21:29

I cast Coors a little earlier today I was thinking about getting out and making a video about like oh we're on holy ground folks it's definitely not it's

01:21:37

Coors definitely not wouldn't have the same effect hey um do you think that Jesus turned water into wine for the glory of God when

01:21:51

Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine was that to the glory of God or was that a sin was that a sin for Jesus to do that when he turned water into wine alcoholic wine at a wedding feast at a celebration so when you do all these things that are not rooted in scripture they're rooted in your tradition

01:22:10

Mr. Anderson your tradition is what is feeding into this perspective it's not impressive

01:22:18

I want to reason from the word of God I want to reason in such a way that I don't make Jesus look like a sinner like you just did you see because when you mock alcohol in the way that you did and you say it in the way that you are you're actually making your savior look like a sinner because he actually turned water into wine at a wedding and it was alcoholic wine there is no way exegetically around that when you look at the scriptures and you see

01:22:44

God actually saying he's going to bless his people with the choicest wines when you see God telling his people to sell their stuff and to make capital to buy wine and strong drink for a celebration you're making

01:22:56

God look evil because of your tradition not because of scripture because of your tradition and that's what all this is behind me it's the result of the

01:23:12

Christian worldview that's what this is yeah and if you know anything about Arthur Guinness and if you've been to Ireland and you actually understood what this

01:23:21

Christian family did to bless Ireland you would be eating crow right now the stories go long and deep to know about what the

01:23:30

Guinness family what this did to bless the culture and society as Christians around them talking about lifting the poor out of poverty talking about blessing families talking about bringing medical care to families talking about building churches for Christians to worship in when you mock a

01:23:49

Christian that laid his life down in many areas not saying he was a perfect Christian I'm not saying anything like that any of us are perfect Christians I'm saying that yes this was a result of the biblical worldview and Christian thinking for sure how do you how do you say that the wine in the

01:24:02

Bible was non -alcoholic when it's the same word the same Hebrew word is used to warn people about drinking wine and being drunk right like the whole principle is a good question well because their position is that well they didn't even they didn't even drink the wine they only cooked with it or that it was non -alcoholic which

01:24:27

I think is scientifically impossible back then and why does non -alcoholic wine give people a merry heart right grape juice that's some dang good

01:24:39

Welch's my heart is merry Beto Duels though well yeah there is an effect on the body from alcohol that can be a blessing if it's not abused and and it just doesn't make sense it's just it's just not good teaching that's right so one more thing here we're going to end we're going to wrap this up now and not really give us any more time except to give you one more invitation

01:25:03

Mr. Anderson I am inviting you to a public moderated debate that we will fully pay for we can do it in 2019 and we can discuss the issues that you always harp on you hate

01:25:15

Calvinism you hate reformed theology how about let's debate total depravity let's debate that issue let's debate the issue of Calvinism let's ask the question who controls salvation

01:25:26

God or man let's do it that way and again there's the invitation once again I've sent you messages in the past that have been completely ignored

01:25:34

I'll give you the grace to say that maybe you didn't see them I understand you have a lot of people writing to you so I will give you that grace and say that maybe you didn't see them but I know that you saw what

01:25:44

I responded to you in that last year or this past year where I invited you to a public debate you ignored that you won't do it and so I'll challenge you again how about you stop hiding behind people who are yessing and amening you how about you stop hiding behind a keyboard and a camera and how about you face me as a minister of the gospel before an audience with a moderator and let's open our

01:26:06

Bibles I'll even use the King James I'll use the King James the whole time and let's get to the bottom of these issues together and let's do it as respectful ministers of the gospel how about that the

01:26:21

Bible has something to say about cowards yeah so it sure does I think it should come out there is a moment and you have to forgive me

01:26:29

I thought I had it lined up here I don't where Mr. Anderson lost his mind lost his mind about Arthur Guinness and he tries to basically attack me and say but Arthur Guinness was a

01:26:43

Roman Catholic I thought the Pope was from the devil he just goes nuts and the audience roars amen yes yes amen that's right

01:26:52

Arthur Guinness the Roman Catholic and I was thinking myself this is amazing everybody's just yessing and amen anything this man says they just trust him so much they don't realize that he is feeding them false information right now and all they can do is as soon as he screams and he starts his entertainment behind the pulpits as soon as that happens everyone just yesses and amens and they don't even realize they're yessing an amen and amening something that is completely patently false

01:27:22

Arthur Guinness was not a Roman Catholic now thankfully Steven Anderson offered an apology the next day after he preached and gave some false information and I'll go ahead and play that for you

01:27:36

Steven Anderson here from Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe Arizona I made a mistake in my sermon last night when

01:27:43

I was preaching I said that Guinness was a Roman Catholic it turns out he was actually an

01:27:48

Irish Protestant so what's interesting here is first I want to say this to you

01:27:55

Mr. Anderson thank you thank you very much for having the integrity and having the courage to come forth publicly and to confess to an error and to confess to making the mistake that you did so I want to honor that and say thank you for that all

01:28:10

I want to say here is that as soon as you get, this is 15 seconds in as soon as you get about 20 seconds into this video you leap right back into your tirade and everything else trying to protect yourself and defend yourself and all that you normally do but I just want to highlight something here when you did this whole thing of Arthur Guinness was a

01:28:29

Roman Catholic and everyone's like amen yes and you start going into this moment where you're just screaming and you're yelling false information

01:28:38

I think I want to point something out to you the people who are listening to you they follow you without question they just start amening you no matter what you say and I want to say this to those who are watching right now who are fans of Mr.

01:28:52

Anderson I want you to consider this watch that clip from Steadfast Baptist Church where he goes on this tirade watch how the congregation just follows him implicitly just whatever you say

01:29:04

Mr. Anderson yes you made a comment yes you're screaming you must be right amen you are wrong you are wrong and anybody who knows anything about this history would never make that mistake that he was a

01:29:16

Roman Catholic but yet you screamed it from the pulpit as though it were true and I want to just point out to those who are listening right now who have listened to Mr.

01:29:24

Anderson over the years and you've just listened to what he said and you've just bitten down and you've bought into it

01:29:29

I want to encourage you to think about that moment here's a moment where Anderson goes off the rails loses his mind and he was completely absolutely totally wrong now thankfully he corrected himself the next day but that doesn't change the fact that if you watch that video the audience is just yes amen you're right

01:29:51

I want to say be more critical about what comes out of this man's mouth be

01:29:57

Bereans go to the word of God don't hang on to your traditions don't hang on to your love for me or for him you need to test all things hold fast to that which is true you need to test my words by God's word test

01:30:11

Mr. Anderson's words by God's word that ought to be the standard my friends all right guys final words amen and amen be looking out for our babies are murdered here sequel teaser trailer to be dropping very soon that's right very very soon like this week probably this week yeah this week you guys get a chance to see that we are all very very excited about that so I'm gonna ask you guys to please continue to pray for us we will try to examine some more of this

01:30:38

MacArthur Shapiro discussion a little later again want to highlight the fact that we are so grateful to dr.

01:30:44

MacArthur for honestly such a wonderful job yes in terms of communicating the love of Jesus and the need to turn to Jesus for salvation in that interview we bless him we praise

01:30:55

God for his work in his ministry but we'll continue to talk about some areas we think that could be polished up and sharpened in terms of our witness towards Orthodox Jews right all right that's

01:31:06

Luke the bear he's out that is Zack attack yeah and that is King ginger it's so nice to say that again once again

01:31:14

I'm Jeff the common ninja we'll catch you guys next time right here in apology radio don't forget to go to apology studios .com

01:31:19

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